It seems Serato has forgotten to fix the memory leak....

Hardcopy:
s9.postimage.org

now last and final testing on notebook with more RAM

Notebook W7/8GB
Serato DJ starts extremly quick and runs very smooth in my crates.
RAM consumption stable at 0,98 GB

@SERATO
will this live with e.g. VCI-400 also work? Or will Serato DJ crash also when RAM Consumption will grow up?

Seems user with large Databases are the most not wanted user. In W7/64 with 8 GB Ram i played around till RAM consumption grows up to 1.2GB (i added some more Crates)

Hey what have you done last month? Only renamed Itch and spend some new FX? Will you be able to fix the memeoryleak?

forgot to write down in last post, that Serato Dj still crashes when RAM grows up >1,2 GB RAM

I miss a edit button...

Hey dj-nice,
yes this is a windows version issue.
I have the same issue with a "full big" database.
Can you please upload your database (_Serato_ folder) here, so Serato guys can take a look also at your issue ?

i can not really remember, how often i did such uploads (for Itch and itch beta)
The guys should have had enough bid databases.

Hey dj-nice,

As you well know, and have been on these forums long enough, in this situation, the best course of action would have been to start a help request if you are needing help with a problem and require attention from Serato staff.

Are you able to point me somewhere I could get a copy of your large database? It would be really helpful for testing purposes.

I know this is nothing you haven't heard before, but we are always trying to improve our handling of large databases, it is something we know needs great improvement. Its a big task and is talked about often amongst many of the teams here working on the software.

I am sorry you don't have any solution at this stage, and I am sorry this affects you so greatly. I do hope that Serato DJ will be able to cope with a library such as yours by the time the VCI-400 is supported, but I can't make that promise.

Tweaks to the software to improve this aspect of our software is something our devs are always on the look out for, but if I am to be honest, the limitation lies deep within the fact that our software are currently 32-bit applications. From what I understand having our software as a 64 bit application in the future could open up the possibilities of our software coping with larger libraries and resolve many of our current memory related issues.

Again though, I couldn't say when something like this will happen, as moving to a 64-bit application and potentially rewriting the way our database works is a massive bit of work.

Please do not think you are being ignored, as generally, if you require support, you are more than welcome to create a help request, so someone from our support team can assist.

The support team is pretty busy, so if you make a post in the general discussion, we may not come across your discussion, as soon as we'd like.

Thanks :)

a frind of mine deleted is _Setato_ folder and just inported all his tracks in traktor and just drag tracks to itch decks from traktor. this should be possible with vdj also.

That's funny :)

hello Martin C,

thank you for pick this problem up!

I opend a help ticket in the Pioneer SX Support Forum and did a database upload:
serato.com

Thanks dj-nice,

I will jump in there now! :)

I know it look funny when is djing like that also. but it works for him.

Wow, that is pretty crazy. Essentially it is the same as importing a file as you need via the files browser in ITCH.

Over time, you will fill the library though, but I guess in theory it would only be the tracks you actually need to play :)

Right which mean no wasted songs in the database that never get played.

I feel like this is a good thing. I think it is very easy this day in age for a DJ to have excess music and not enough time to play it/go through it all, your technique is a nice natural filtering process.

Although I am not making excuses for the fact Serato DJ cannot handle larger libraries, but I like the notion behind your technique, its almost vinylesque :)

Then you would be in the minority by today standards. You should come on a few of my gigs where the genres are all over the place and multi cultural, you'll find out how quickly that sentiment goes right in the garbage can. Scratch live continues to be able to deal with large libraries with zero issues, yet that code can't be ported over, its just not a priority even though it is said that it is. This all begin 1.5 years ago when I first started reporting it.

Regards,

@Martin C
Are you (SERATO) working on that problem or just talk about?

It is a priority, and its something that developers, testers and support staff think about basically every day.

I think you will find that Scratch Live also does have its limits. But I agree with you guys, this is something that needs to be addressed, it really is a major problem for many users. I am sure you can imagine, and I am sure you have heard before though, to fix this properly is massive database re-writing work. Its not something that can be done fast, or without caution.

@dj-nice, I am personally not working on this problem, as I work in the support team and do not actually work on the code of the software. We express our frustration on this matter on a very regular basis, we voice our opinion for all the users such as yourselves who deal with this problem.

As I said, I wasn't making excuses, I was just appreciating mr187s interesting workaround. I apologize if this offended you guys.

Hey Nyce, this is a work around you can try. I have a pretty large db too and don't have any issues. It could be for this temp fix

I have icleanmemory running. I have it set to autoclean when my 16gigs of ram falls below 5gigs free. Once it hits that, it automatically cleans the memory and releases the leaks.

I know this is not something that is a perm fix but it could help you as a temp fix

Just my .02

Oh snap, forget that. It's for Mac and I thought you were on a MAC, my bad

I've shorted the quotes since your response deals with both our answers. First off, for me, there is no offense taken, we are just weary and tired of the excuses as end users and people that have to answer to a client base when the software goes south.

Secondly, I just wonder how many at Serato are actually road mobile or club DJs as well as a Serato employee, I'm betting not many? As a DJ, users MARRY to their equipment and in this case software. There are some than can work with multiple controllers and other brands without issue and all the power to them, but most find something that they like to work with to keep their workflow consistent every time and stick with it......i.e. the reign of the 1200's. I can't walk up to the bride and say "Gee I'm sorry, the software crashed while I was cueing up the father daughter song, do you want to wait while I reboot because the software crashed because I have to many songs and we can start the song over?".....how do you think that would go over? If you think that is a crazy example, then your not a wedding DJ and that's fine, but a bad review from just one bride can destroy my companies reputation with all the social media networks.

Finally to the rest of the point, if ANY of Serato's software couldn't deal with these large libraries, we'd probably understand the response of rewritting the whole thing, but because SCRATCH LIVE and ITCH ........SHARE the same library and files in _serato_ folder, IMO, there is no leg to stand on about this whole rewrite mess......I'm over 83K songs now and LIVE can STILL load them all up and use them without crashing....I'm just not seeing a year and half of not merging the load process's to be equal. It fails when it loads and sorts......you have the databases to test and fix it....while it may be a daily talked about issue, it just seems its not a worked on daily issue.

I get it that Serato has to make money and work with all the partners to keep their bottom line in check, but we were told this would be fixed, to date, if anything, 2.2.2 is in complete shambles and the forums without me even commenting are seeing it more and more (crash on load, large libraries, program just quiting). Serato DJ, same issue (with some minor loading files tweaks but ultimately crashes), and THAT was supposed to be a COMPLETE REWRITE....how is this problem still here if that is true?

These are just my experiences to date to respond to your response.

Regards,

This issue has been on the radar for at least three years. Serato had sample databases. Using those sample databases these issue were easy to reproduce. That was with Scratch Live! Basically these issues became worse and worse with each release since SL 2.0. Its really a shame that Serato did not prioritize this issue any higher.

Hey Kittmaster,

I agree with most of what you have said. I am not denying nor ever have denied this is a major issue for some DJs especially, your example the wedding DJ.



This is an unfair assumption, we aren't completely oblivious to the problems that DJs face with our software, in fact quite the opposite.

I apologize that I am not developer to give you more insight into why this is happening, and why it happens to a lesser degree with Scratch Live. There isn't really much more I can offer you guys, other than what has already been said.

I have this issue as a help ticket already and I don't think it's going to be fixed anytime soon. My problem is with scratch live however. Crash Crash Crash with any version over 1.9.2. This needs to be a top priority to accommodate large libraries.

I too DJ at events where I need my large library due to requests on the spot.

I have this issue with my Lenovo laptop, it crashes 10 secs after loading....while it's loading the itunes library.... BUT, this does not happen with my MBP. I won't say the specs of my lenovo as I just use it for setting my itunes libraries, and then clone them to the MBP which is the Lap i use for DJing. So, it's not ideal, but not an issue for me....BUT it must be fixed.

I agree with Kittmaster, I have Scratch LIVE running a little over 50k in my library, LIVE works without a hitch, I just got my DDJ-SX and booted up SeratoDJ and it immediately crashes. So basically I have to redo my whole library, which now affects Scratch LIVE as well. Is there a reason Serato DJ doesn't adopt the same code for the playlist as Scratch LIVE? why remove a solid piece of programming? (at least solid enough to handle large libraries)

Because ssl basically belongs to rane.
It has closed exclusive license with rane

100% total clueless post!

The reason being is the code for the controllers and the xtra features and plugin like izotope means serato dj uses more memory than SSL. So to fix this issue Serato need to rewrite there programs into 64bit software so then serato dj can use as much RAM as we can chuck at it. At the moment serato dj is 32bit and only uses 1.2-1.5gb ram before crashing.

Just out of curiosity, I wonder what the "most songs" someone can have prior to crashing. I currently have 22k which I think is an average library. Not large compared to a lot of people but not small. I haven't had any issues at all.
I do need to purge a lot of tracks I would never ever play but I wonder what that magic number is. 25k songs, 30k, 35k??

There can be a few different factors than can contribute to this issue, and as far as I know they are:

- Amount of files
- Amount of Crates and Subcrates
- Amount of Smart Crates

I have seen cases of users removing lots of one of these and still having plenty of the others to solve their issue. Our testers probably have more accurate formula/numbers on this subject, buts its probably not a straight forward answer still.



I am not a developer so I cant get too technically accurate, but I believe this is what a lot of the issue comes down to. Making our software 64 bit is something we have been investigating for a little while, and do have plans to do it when appropriate, its just about prioritizing it amongst the many other things we would like to do for our software.

I can assure you, that overall its in the master plan for our software, because reaching memory limitations are a big concern for us at all times.

I am sorry I can't bring you news of any FIXES just yet, but I thought I could at least be honest with you guys and keep the discussion rolling. This really is a tough problem for DJs with big libraries!

FYI, I don't have any issues with Serato DJ at the moment. Mine is working flawless, I was just curious.

I know people have library of 50-60-70k tracks which is insane.

I do need to clean out my library though.

Question. I have majority (easy 95% of my music in itunes. Would the best way for me to overall delete these tracks is go to itunes and delete from there??

In Serato DJ, I would just rescan tracks after I clean up and look for any missing files and then control+delete them in serato to get rid of them if they are in any crates?

Yes definitely. You can't delete tracks from Serato DJ. The way we access iTunes libraries is "read only" so iTunes does not allow us to make changes that will affect an iTunes library in that way.

Also, iTunes has a "show duplicate files" option which is really handy and we don't have this in Serato DJ. support.apple.com



This shouldn't be necessary with your iTunes music. With any music not in iTunes, its only necessary if you have:

A: Changed the NAME of a file
B: Change the LOCATION of a file

If you have any missing files, it doesn't hurt to try and relocate them. If you know where those missing files are, it helps even further, to locate the folder they are in, inside Serato DJ files panel, then drag and drop that folder onto the "relocate lost files" button. serato.com

If you still having missing files, that don't have iTunes icons, then yes, you can CONTROL + DELETE to remove them, providing you have "protect library" turned off in the setup screen.

I hope this helps! Cleaning your library is always a great thing to do.

Great thanks!

Best of luck!

I run an NS6, was using Itch, just switched to Serato DJ. I can have EITHER my hard drive OR my controller plugged in. Plug in both, instant crash. VDJ, no problems, Traktor, no problems and out of curiosity I reloaded an old copy of pcdj and no problems. I spent a g note on my controller and the software doesn't support my library. A DJ software with a LIBRARY limitation??? I may not NEED every song in my library, but the first time a bride requests a song and I have to say "I don't have it" as someone mentioned earlier, that can quickly kill my business' reputation. And someone else mentioned it's a memory leak, if this is true and that IS the problem...YOU FOUND IT!!! FIX IT!!! PLEEEEEEEEASE!!! I prefer the performance functionality of Serato DJ over any other software but this is getting rediculous.

Hey DJSkeetRI,

Are you using a Windows or Mac?

How many files do you have in your library?

How many crates and subcrates do you have roughly?

What about smartcrates?

Hey scooterADAM,

We have to sustain a commercial presence and maintain business relationships with our hardware partners. Our hardware partners have deadlines we must meet in order to keep their controller supported on our latest software. This type of pressure has to weighed up with two other things I think, which are:

1. Adding new features that people are requesting
2. Maintaining our existing software with optimization and bug fixes.

We do our best to have each release bring a good balance of all three. As much as I would love for us to stop and take time out to focus on the second one, I think that if we were to do so, the time taken out might just have us drop off the radar a bit too much.

Our approach is to slowly work away at all three, and bit by bit, when necessary, clean up our code and implement optimizations. As developers work through it all, they intend to fix things that ITCH might be not so good at, and make sure Serato DJ goes the distance.

With each new version we are working towards a better software and making sure are ready to go 64 bit when the time comes.

Please understand that more than anything (especially if you are in the support team like myself) we want big software improvements to happen as soon as possible, however it takes time to build solid foundations.

Thanks :)

Hi Martin,

Appreciate the response, I realize you guys are in a no-win situation when responding to questions like this.

It is clear the roadmap is dictated by the hardware partners. And it seems Vestax and Novation are lower on the food chain than others.

I would argue that rewriting for 64 bit and thereby preventing the Serato controller software from crashing on startup is not merely a coding optimization but a crucial fix for this software to be taken seriously.

It is a poor workaround to suggest that users downsize their library so Itch/SDJ don't crash.

My poor luck/choice to have:
laptop PC/win 7, >200gig itunes library, vci380, novation twitch

Really really want to like Serato Itch/SDJ, have gigged with it, loved the flexible beat grids and UI. But I simply can't use it at the moment, Itch won't start up any more and SDJ is a long way off, and judging by other threads here, has the same problem.

I think both the controllers are great hardware let down by poor software. It is sad that there is no resolution in sight.

At least the Twitch works great with Traktor, the VCI380 on the other hand just sits there looking at me all sad wondering if it will be sold soon...

Regarding holding on the VCI, maybe you can let me know what you think...
* is the only option to use Itch right now to downsize my music collection and/or buy a mac?
* is SDJ for the VCI actually likely in the next 6 months?
* what is the itunes library size limit before Itch or the upcoming SDJ crash on startup?

What is the itunes library size limit before Serato DJ start crashing on start up? Not having any problems now with my 2009 macbook pro everything is running smooth with about 13,000 tracks in my itunes library But i would like to know the number limit before it starts acting stupid.....

I'm curious about that too. I have about 20k tracks, 99% itunes and I have no issues at all. Granted my macbook is i 2012 with 16gigs of Ram which probably helps. I want to know if I am right on the bubble though.

Nope 16gb ram totaly usless serato is a 32bit application and does not use more than 1.5gb

So this is your limit when serato gets to 1.2+gb ram usage it starts to stall and then crashes as it runs out of memory.

Sure if serato was 64bit it would use your 16gb of ram and be totally fine.

So if just using serato dj or itch anything over 4gb ram is majour overkill but if useing video aswel nice to have 6-8gb.

Noted...at least my comp will be future proof come the time serato does make 64 bit.

But either way my comp is running like a champ right now! :)

what is this talk about serato crashing with huge libraries? i am a new serato user and thankfully have not experienced this (YET as i have not imported all my songs for now)

this is kinda scaring me, i am natively a traktor user for years, i recently bought the DDJ-SX and was thinking about migrating to Serato DJ, and I do have a large library so all this talk about crashing kinda makes me feel uneasy with Serato DJ

i really hope that this gets resolved soon!

How big is your library?

best thing todo is try the serato dj offline player and see how well that runs. (i know it uses more when you plug your controller in ect.) but if you can not get serato dj to open in offline player you defo wont with hardware attached.

also it all depends on how many crates you have how many smart crates and music. you can have loads of songs in like ten crates but then a smaller number of songs and thousands of crates wont work. it's hit and miss.

also note it works better on Macs than on PCs. my mac is at the limit on pc i have to delete 65% of crates and about 20% music for it to even open.

Must be a PC issue doesn't happen on my Mac I have 2 terabytes of videos and not a single glitch on my 17 inch i7 2.4ghz with 4 gigs of ram or my 21 inch iMac i3 late 2009 3.06 with 4 gigs of ram

it does happen on macs! just works better i.e more crates and music before the issue happens.

I don't have that issue with 2 terabytes of video... But I don't have 500 crates either...

that was the answer for why controllers can't use SSL which is a closed partnership between Rane and Serato.

maybe it has to do with item count more than item size.




:/ I thought Mac 64 bit os allowed 32 bit apps to use 4gb ? for some reason itch on mac can use a much bigger database than Pc.

not sure if its relevant but as far as I have ever used Itch I never used Serato crates to manage my music, am playing everything from itunes playlists, same thing I do in Traktor

I guess the problem is when Itch (and I hear SDJ as well...) tries to load my >200gig itunes library it runs out of ram and dies.

But this raises more questions?
* Why does Itch/SDJ need to use so much memory to load/read an itunes library?
* Is it just the way the Itch/SDJ code is written?
* Why do other users report that SSL works ok with big libraries and and Itch/SDJ not?

Traktor has always managed to load my itunes library and doesn't crash, I don't use collections there either. Also as far as I can tell it has always been a 32 bit app.

Serato, surely this is not a trivial issue and deserves priority on your development roadmap.

I can't disagree with you here. Just to be clear I am not a developer, but as I understand, moving to 64 bit is no small task.

To make it happen initially isn't a lot of work, but the result of doing the work can potentially have many parts of the code break and cause massive issues for the software.

The aftermath of the move can take a lot of time to run through full regression testing and then when bugs are found, to subsequently fix these issues with further development work.

You can then understand that a potentially large unknown amount of time needs to be set aside for this, and put us out of action with doing other work too. To perform a large unknown task is pretty daunting for any software company I would imagine for some of the reasons I stated in my above post.

If anyone is interested I found this to be a pretty good article about 32 bit to 64 bit migration: msdn.microsoft.com

To answer your questions as best I can:



I couldn't guarantee your library will work on mac, but definitely try before buying if you are considering this as an option.
Yes, downsizing is worth considering too (but I know its a workaround) I am totally willing to help you with the task if you require advice/assistance.



I am always cautious of giving away deadlines, we hate to disappoint, but yes its scheduled to be released within 6 months.



I will try and speak to a tester at work tomorrow morning to try and find and answer for your here.

Its a combination type thing that can vary though.
Its a combination of:

- subcrates
- crates
- smart crates
- amount of files

Cheers

On the last item, I don't use Serato's crate structure at all, only itunes playlists, so can I ask that you try to get an answer in terms of:
- number of files
- total size of files

Why is this happening with serato I thought they'd have improved all this madness itch was the same problem now sdj I've got a very big music collection and they got to sort it out

Unless you give them millions to employ the staff todo it it aint guna happen in the next ten years.

Yeah I agree but it is frustrating tho

bump.

Any word on the max music library sizing?

No you just have to try it every computer and combo is totally different with different results just download it and try.

Hi,

Ive just got a ddj sx and had been running serato dj in offline mode for a week with no dramas. I was horrified yesterday when i plugged the ddj sx in and Serato Dj just kept crashing everytime i loaded it up. My library is about 24,000 tracks and its all accessed through iTunes within Serato Dj. Im running a 64 bit Windows 7 Alienware with 16 Gb of RAM.
I soon chanced upon a workaround which has worked everytime without fail. When the Serato Dj program closes it creates a folder called '_Serato_' in my filepath My Computer\F: in this folder is a file called 'database V2'. If i delete the folder '_Serato_' and then start Serato Dj with my ddj sx controller attached all is great and it does an initial quick scan at the bottom of the screen and is fine all working. However whenever i shut down Serato Dj and then leave the newly created folder '_Serato_' in my filepath My Computer\F: the next time i try to run Serato Dj program with the ddj sx attached it crashes. I can recreate this quick fix or crash everytime without fail using this method.
Hope this helps

Regards

Chris (cwiggy78)

jebus, I would like this work...

I tried all manner of things relating to the _Serato_ folder to try and get Itch to work with no joy... heres hoping I could get this work with SDJ (whenever the VCI380/twitch are supported that is...)

Great, I'm already discouraged before even getting the release of Serato DJ for the Numark V7's when ever that will be! Something never change lol ...

Is the large library issue currently affecting you ?

It's not affecting me at the moment, I'm still on Itch, but I can see what's coming lol ... not looking forward to the upgrade...

You can download Serato DJ in the meantime. See if it crashes using the offline player. If not, you should be fine.

Ok, I think I'll try that for sure ...

Can I have both Serato Itch and Serato DJ running at the same time? Does Serato DJ use the same _Serato_ folder? Or if someone can point me to the best place to find out info that will be great.

The last thing I want is for Serato DJ to mess up my Itch directories if that's different.

Thanks

Sorry I meant installed on the same machine

They use the same directories. I have SDJ and SSL installed on my machine and no issue.

Not true, if you manage to get it all to load at say you are sitting around 1G of memory "ish" and then you plug in the controller, that typically takes up around 300K of ADDITIONAL memory for the app to operate and will cause the app to crash......I validated it several times in DJ and 2.2.2 ITCH.

Regards,

This is a good suggestion I think for those worried that it may affect them, however Kittmaster makes a valid point, once a support controller is connected the memory use goes up again.

If you aren't having this problem with ITCH though, its most likely you won't have it with Serato DJ.

@scooterADAM, sorry I took a while to get this info. Our testers are busy so I try not disturb them if I can help it!

This is an extract of some information one of the testers passed onto me, I hope it helps in some way:



There will be most likely some more thorough testing notes somewhere, but I think thats a pretty good indication of the limitations.

I believe Apple computers may allow for slightly higher limits, but more than likely will reach a limit around a similar value.

I'm sorry I can't help you guys a whole lot more than telling you how I see it, letting you know its on the radar, but not give you expectations that this problem will be fixed overnight.

Trust that the support team (and others in the company) raise this issue on the regular, in order to keep the pressure constant and not let our superiors forget how this affects you all.

Both itch and serato dj crashes when you load up lots of crates..Im struggling because when i add new music and when im playing out i never know when im gonna get a crash. im a professional dj, that's what i do everyday all day, i have to put my ipod on one of my Ns6 line inputs just in case i get a crash i can talk in the next son and restart..this happens pretty often.. you guys need a patch or something to fix this. u guys are making me look bad,plus i hate having to worry about adding new music...serato might crash.

Hi,

Due to this issue which in my opinion is not acceptable for such a large company they have lost my support now and I have crossed over to Traktor for good.

If this happens pretty often then YOU are not providing a professional service. Clients don't no about nor do they care about Serato bug or malfunctions. They only no YOU failed.

Which is why HE is HERE to voice a COMPLAINT about getting something FIXED that I started REPORTING over 1.5 YEARS ago......but good job in digging into him for the obvious....feel better now?

Look for alternatives......

In the next month (years) you will not get a bugfix for this bug. I am waiting since my first report with the start of Itch 2.0 at 4 August, 2011.

yes, since 08 - 2011, I could not use Serato

The support told me in Serato DJ this was fixed. I was a big idiot... sold my DX, got SDJ for 199 $ and a Vestax VCI-400

They fixed nothing and wont fix it in future....i am sure

Ya i asked if they even plan on doing 64bit version of serato dj and was told sorry there are no plans for 64bit support.

Shocking!!!!

Yes

Maybe that's what someone needed to tell him and others like him a long time ago.

If you are knowingly performing live with malfunctioning gear are you providing a professional service ? The obvious answer is no.

A professional will look for alternative, options, fixes........they will never EVER allow repeated FAILERS.

IN no way what so ever am I giving Serato a pass on this issue.......I'm suggesting a "professional dj" needs to take a more proactive approach at find a solution.

Crossing your fingers and doing nothing is not an option in my opinion.

And I 100% agree with you on that.

Guys, I know this is really a frustrating issue to have happen.

At the end of the day, if the software isn't working for your library, you have to try out other options.

If you do wish to troubleshoot with us and try and few things, please start a help request and we are more than happy to do what we can to help with the issue.

Martin

Im just glad i remeber the old days when serato was the leader in the game and really did what they could for Djs. Now tho its just dissapointment.

Still my choice of software tho, just have to work on my library alot more to stop crashes.

And dream about serato features being in serato software!

Hopefuly on day someone buys serato out and invests money back into the company and can rebuild its name.

Will say tho what does work in serato products works very well and has made me good money!

Still got the love but all this dissapointment is chipping away.

In the mean time back to djing lol.

We haven't stopped caring about DJs, trust me. Thinking about usability and whats best for the DJ is at the forefront of EVERY decision we make.

The way I see it, we try to have a good balance of three main things with each release:

- Controller Support

To provide commercial growth and choices for our customers

- Maintenance

To maintain and fix existing or new bugs.

- Features

To implement new or requested features, or bring new ideas to the table.

Keep in mind that if you focus too much on ONE of these for a period of time, the other two become neglected and the balance is lost.

I am not trying to make excuses, but please keep all of the above in mind. We strive to do our best at all three with what resources we have.

Hallo Martin, thanks for picking up this problem. Now i will see my daily crashes with other eyes.....

Martin C large library crashes has always been a problem for Serato weather SSL,Itch or Serato DJ, what strikes me is that Serato take so long to get this issue under control.

This is most likely the nature of the application being 32 bit, there is always going to be some memory limitation.

The number of people now experiencing this issue and therefore the important of the issue has grown in the last 1-2 years in my opinion.

Its not something we can fix with one release, but its something we have been working on in increments with each version.

Ultimately there is only so much that can be done still, before you are ultimately faced again with the limitations of 32 bit applications. There isn't much more I can say on that, that I haven't already said here: serato.com

I'm sorry guys, I am not sure what else I can tell you at this point.

Also SeratoDJ is the new kid on the block why did Serato didn't write a 32 and a 64 bit version something like what Ableton did with Live.

We have plans to do a 64 bit version at some point, but we wanted to release a 32 bit version as soon as possible. We wanted to give existing ITCH customers some long needed feature improvements and additions, as well as provide an upgrade path to our Serato DJ Intro customers.

This means keeping our existing ITCH customers happy as well as introducing some income via the upgrade price for Serato DJ Intro customers which helps us fund development and testing resources, so we can do those big things we really want to get done properly, like reducing memory usage and making a 64 bit version of our DJ software.

sorry, till Itch 2.0 there was not a real RAM problem. Instead of explain the problems with 32 bit you should look, what have you done in Itch 2.2.2.

I had never a RAM problem witch Itch 1.x

Seems the database is now cached in RAM, cause with Itch 2.2.2 / SDJ, there is no real delay while open or close big crates. (takes for me up to 4-5 seconds in older versions) So you should ask yourself: hey what did we wrong this time as we "optimize" our database with Itch 2.0 and in 2.2.2????

It is nearly unbeliable, that
Itch 1.7 use at startup only 640 MB Ram
Itch 2.1 takes 770 MB Ram
Itch 2.2 takes 840 MB Ram
Itch 2.2.2 takex 1050 MB RAM

....tested with my large Database

it will grow up at work an even crash at 1.2 GB RAM!

SO DONT EXPLAIN THIS PROBLEMS WITH 32BIT...CHECK YOUR BUGS in Itch 2.0 and 2.2.2.

oh, forgit RAM consumption Sertao DJ is more or equal to Itch 2.2.2 and there is no delay while open close crates, too.

I bet, there is an equal code platform in database handling

Can I ask a question, what do you guys consider a large database? I have roughly 60,000 mp3's and 12,000 videos and I've never had a problem. It there a point where I need to start trimming down my selection?

I consider that pretty large. I only have around 18,000 MP3s...i think that is "average"

It's dependent on:

- How many crates you have
- How many tracks each of these crates have

I also find it weird, that Serato didn't take the opportunity to implement a 64Bit app when they started working on Serato DJ.

This issue has been brought up years (!) ago and it has not been assigned the needed priority unfortunately. Since SL 2.0 the number of possible crates has been decreasing. It's a bit better on the Mac, than on the PC.

Plus right now it does not look like this is explicitly a "main" memory issue. You can see that SL (on the PC) does not nearly hit the 2GB app limit, but still it reports "a memory issue". So maybe something else is broken.

Hey dj-nice,

I don't mean to come off like I am making up reasons for why it is like this. I am doing my best to explain what I know (from a non developer point of view) from what information I have been told by our developers.

The information you have raised is quite interesting indeed.



The optimizations I have been informed of so far, have been mainly surrounding increased loading speeds of libraries.

Whats interesting is your tests, and perhaps the implied idea, that as a result of increasing the loading time, it has the further reduced the file limit that software can actually load.

Can you confirm, and I apologize if you have answered this question before, but can you load a larger library (amount of files) in ITCH 1.7 when compared to ITCH 2.2.2?

Yet, when we are talking about a smaller library, would you agree that the loading time has increased in ITCH 2.2.2?

Hi Martin,
cause englich is not my mother language, im not shure, if i have understood correct.

The loading time with my large library has decreased in ITCH 2.2.2. / SDJ, compared to Itch 1.7

But did you remember:
The first Itch versions 2.0.1/2.1 were really buggy. There are memory (RAM) problems while build up an new Database V2 from a large crate strukture. I think, this was also fixed in the final Itch version

Personally I cant use itch > ver 2.0 including Serato DJ in offline mode. Scratchlive in offline mode does not work either. They all crash and Itch 1.7 is the only one that will load my library and play without a problem.

I have to use version 1.5 to get my library to load.......with the V7's attached, I'm sitting right at 1.01Gb of memory, so inching real close to the peak memory.....it's scary.

You HAVE TO REMEMBER.....versions like 1.5 have MINIMAL features compared to the newer feature rich 2.2.2 and DJ which burn up more memory space in RAM.

It appears to be a limitation of x32.....so for the love of god.....make a x64 version......we have GBs of memory and you insist on clinging to x32 for what reason exactly???? If your team can't do it, maybe you need to hire a contractor that can convert it for you.

This isn't some minor little bug, it is now wide spread.....so in regards to the trinity: support, features, maintenance.....it converts to maintenance/stability, everything else becomes zero importance if the app crashes like it does......250K song libraries are becoming the norm whether anyone agrees with that or not.......stop all your doing and fix it....I do believe the tool chains all have a migration path for x32 to x64.....I suggest someone take a serious look at it and release a x64 beta.

I understand that profits need to be made.....but right now......you not only have one black eye, you have two black eyes and a busted nose........you have no idea how bad this affects us on the road....if you did, this would have been fixed a year ago, I refuse to believe otherwise.

But hey, we're only your customers, stay the course.

Hey Kittmaster,



As dj-nice has pointed out (and yourself mentioned that extra features have been added) that it isn't just straight up causes by the limitation of 32 bit, however I do believe its that a 64 bit is potentially a solution to many of our problems. Ideally, first and foremost, the overall memory usage could be decreased, and then a 64 bit version would certainly open up the doors for larger libraries.



I agree with you here, but we can't stop the whole of development in its tracks completely to do it Im afraid. As I said, if you focus too much on any one of these things, we lose balance.



You are entitled to your opinions Kittmaster, but as a DJ and technical support person, I understand the seriousness, and I understand how bad it can be. I also understand how can affect the reputation of the software, I see it day in and day out.

Its not just as simple as dropping every plan we have devote every developer we have to this. We want to do this right and do this smart. Rushing to put a band aid over the issue can lead to wrong solutions.

There isn't much more I can say without sounding like a broken record. Im sorry this affects you all, the only suggestion I have at this point is to reduce or reorganize your library. If there is any way you can reduce the length of your file paths, or reduce the amount of files/crates, and as a result, you can reduce how big the database is.

If the database V2 file is smaller, the chances of being out of memory decrease greatly.

If you wish for us to help, we can do that, just make a separate help request so we can focus on your setup individually.

Thanks :)

Why is it that I can use Traktor with an equally large library and it doesn't crash? it is also 32 bit right? also integrates with itunes? has equal or more functionality to load up in memory?

It seems to me there something fundamentally flawed about the way that SDJ/Itch loads music libraries into memory and wasn't designed to scale. Sounds like legacy Itch code was also used in SDJ and to fix it would require a major overhaul. This overhaul would disrupt development on the things that bring about the most Serato revenue the quickest (is a business after all) and as such is out of the question for the coming 18 months at least.

I'm building a single crate with 60,000 songs in it all of the files are located in one folder on my second hard drive. Currently the i can see all 60K songs, the database is 30+ mb in size and growing as I start analyze the files, and windows 8 with serato running is using 825MB of ram.

My Laptop is Asus G75VW with:
128gb SSD
750gb HSSD
24gb of ram
Windows 8 OS
Serato DJ only
NS7, NS6,DDJ-SX

This will determine if I'm moving to Traktor or Virtual DJ until serato can get this database issue fixed because my main music library is a 3TB ext hdd running on USB 3.0 port and I can pull up a request for customer in fear of it crashing the software.

I understand it best to analyze before a show but you get those request at the show that you have analyze and if you pushing the limits on ram one bad or large file with crash Serato when you try to load/add to database.

v/r
colemang70

In other words gentlemen, "time for plan B".......yall know like......alternative, options, fixes.

WOW, thats definitely not normal were im from......I think some of you guys have an undiagnosed file hording addiction.....

Well you have to realize that there are series that are scratch tracks, acapella tracks, music tracks, sample tracks, short cutz tracks, video tracks......and each and every one of those are tagged in meta and have to be accounted for by the software, you may never play those tracks (but many want to have them on hand....because really....you just never know), but understand that people that are subscribed to multiple cd pools, ultimix, funkymix, mastermix, mixshow ingredients......those series have thousands of tracks, plus all the music collection cds, regular tracks, country, rock, top40.....now many DJ's are moving to video and that can span 10000 or better from the the same series providers...........all have to be counted and held......so ramming them all in a single folder isn't going to work to "minimize" the database for the paths and file names for the crate structure.

As for alternatives, NI doesn't handle V7 or NS7, Virtual DJ crashes often (7.05) with V7 and the platter response is substandard to Serato, what's left? Cue.....that is VDJ skinned.....Torq > garbage with V7, latest version is just not good IMO.

So right now......there is no plan B, it's getting plan A in order one would think.

I'm sorry but I refuse to believe quarter million songs in a library is becoming the norm.

10,000 is huge amount if you think about it. 250,000 is just plain ginormace.

I have a hard time believing even you believe that...lol

dont think about 250K Tracks......SDJ has still memory problems with 10% of that, if you had build or grown up large crate struktures.

Ya i agree i can have these memory issues with 12,000 files! All depends. Some people can have loads of files some hardly any.

My mac struggles with 50,000 audio/video.

Only way itch and sdj will open is to make sure i closer EVERY single subcrate is closed when i shut down.

Well that is on you, last check, I have properly indexed and cataloged 84073 active songs in my library. I have another drive that has all my ethnic tracks that I have yet to index and catalog.

I DJ that I work with has over 130K verified tracks.

Do the math, 250K is more than possible in our near futures (2 years maybe), even if it you refuse to believe it.

Of course I have a plan B, I prefer to have Plan A work first since its the most elegant and not requiring dual hardware to deal with it all.

Oh I have no doubt you and many DJs have a library that large. I'm not questioning that. It's just not the norm right now. That's a fvckin' huge library. Literally they're are some mp3 DJ pools out there that doesn't even come close to that amount. So I highly doubt the average DJ own and carry around a quarter million tracks. Just trying to get you to think about what you said.

I have 17,000 tracks which Im sure has a ton of dupes and nonsense that I will never ever ever play. I think that's probably the average right now. Hell, I might even be on the low end. With that said, I haven't had any issues at all with SDJ or my SX. Loads itunes and playlists within 10 seconds of starting the program.

I have two concurrent views on this:

There clearly are a lot of DJs with massive libraries, and Serato's software should be able to cope with that.

but...

Anyone with a library approaching or above 100k tracks should spend more time on library management and less time downloading any old shit they can find.

co-sign...

Totally agree that the software should support the size and if it does not, Serato should at least publish a max size (based on the number of items and/or database size) which they're software can safely function.

An option to select which folders or playlists to load may also alleviate the problem

or a field to mark your favorite crates, which should be cached. This should be reduce the RAM consumption dramatically

This is a good point, but early on....I do recall it said somewhere (the manual I think) you can have "unlimited" amount of songs in your library.....until people started running into the RAM limitation. If it was published originally you can have up to say......50K songs, then anyone with more than that would have nothing to complain about, but in fact, it was sold as no limitations until a lot of us found them......I'm sure/know it wasn't intentional, but when you advertise a software to do something, and then it doesn't, and then it isn't fixed.....well you know the rest of that movie.

The problem is the limitations of where it really falls apart is unknown since it has a lot of variables to how it crashes....path lengths, file name size, etc etc..all contribute to where and when the limitation occurs....so its hard for them to give a "do this and all is right with the world" suggestion.

<continues to hope for resolution>

I carry about 10,000 tracks and if during that rare occasion i'm asked for something that's not on my laptop, I have an ftp server at home with my entire collection that I can access from my MiFi (or WiFi if it's freely available) and just download the track if I have it at home. I set this up back in 2011 and it's been a big help.

That is a great idea!.......Right up until the point you work in a building like the Biltmore in Providence RI where the function halls are 4 floors UNDERGROUND and you have zero to no signal via cellular or otherwise. Yes, I'm sure they have free wi-fi, but still leaves the risk and assumption that you will have ACCESS to that system....for my company, standalone is the only way we operate. If we don't have something at the gig when asked, I'll try to use my tethered phone to get it accordingly if permitted, but ultimately I run my show as if I'm an island...I want it all there and with me....it's no longer where we are lugging vinyl around and people "understand" that you can only have so much....its digital, and the cost is only HD space.....so no one wants to hear "I forgot to bring it" or "I can't access the internet to download it" in the digital age......understandably so.

If your a DJ that has only 10K songs, great, if that works for you. But since my company subscribes to 8 different pools which is very costly per month, we have hundreds of audio and video tracks rolling in each month.....and it adds up quick.....I'm not going to leave anything on the table by saying that I left it at home, or have to shuffle 4 different drives on site to use the ones I want...every DJ is different, I'm the one that brings it all......if that doesn't jive or you think it is a library management issue, well, anything that you have to say will not change me or my workflow, this is how we roll, we bring it all....I can't tell you how many gigs I've been asked for completely random stuff.......and I had it on some obscure remix label, or misc folder that I knew someday may get asked for and then played it....many times complemented on being 100% prepared....if that isn't something you relish as a DJ, well, I feel sorry for your clients. Every DJ does what they feel is best for them and their clients, how you handle it is up to you and your success will be determined by those actions.

So to each their own and hoping things get fixed accordingly.

..

I am a "hobby" DJ who recently spent over $1,000 on a Pioneer's DDJ-SX with the intention to branch out professionally. I had played around on a Numark Mixtrack Pro for under $200 with Virtual DJ. When I first switched to Serato I was not aware it wouldn't work on Windows Vista. I had to completely upgrade to Windows 7. Since switching over to Serato, my system in unpredictable; I never know when it's going to crash. I use iTunes and have just under 20,000 song titles (many of which are not used for DJ'ing - such as audio books). With a large data base of music, it has been easier to allow iTunes to manage my folders and playlists (both for ease of use, time management, and to use iTunes as a primary source of portable music).

I started a previous thread on how to solve the crashing and it was suggested that I make two separate iTune libraries, one for DJ and one for "other". The problem, which has been stated before, is doing a gig where someone requests music and it is located on another "library". This would defeat the purpose of having a wide range of music to choose from. Switiching libraries or updating duplicate data files cuts into my time to find good music and hone my craft.

Martin C, I have read numerous posts where you can't talk more about the issue because you are not a developer. That is understandable. But this thread started over five months ago and it sounds like these are issues that have plagued past Serato software programs. There has been nothing posted by the developers who can answer the questions we ask. When will a developer post on this forum?

I understand the dynamics of trying to balance needs. However, when there is a major glitch in a system, a company shouldn't continue to put out more of the same products until that glitch is fixed. Take the Boeing 787 for example. The lithium batteries caught fire, production was shut down, and Boeing focused on fixing the problem. Production wasn't allowed to continue until that problem was fixed. Car manufacturers recall vehicles when they don't work properly.

Which brings me to the reason behind this post. If we, our fellow DJ's who have purchased a product that doesn't work and in searching for solutions are told that "we are working on this issue, but it is more important for x y z first," we need to go to the next level. We need to file a complaint with the better business bureau. www.bbb.org I am sure there are other entities out there that can also be advocates for us, but I have always had luck with BBB.

I am grateful for Serato to respond to issues on forums like this. I am grateful for emails I have received from Serato addressing questions and concerns. It was this customer service in the first place that sold me on their product. Unfortunately, a known crashing program is a HUGE issue and needs to take priority over everything else. As mentioned before, I never had this issue with a cheaper controller or program. When I upgraded to a "professional" system, I expect it to operate as such. Needless to say, I am disappointed in the product and only hope that Serato can find a fix. Otherwise, I will have to return my Pioneer controller with Searto picking up the tab for my time and expenses.

My mistake. Serato is a New Zealand business. I will look into filing complaints there.

You know everyone can see your forum-posted help requests right?

YOU don't have this 'known issue'.

Other users might have some grounds for complaint over it. You certainly don't, with your circa-20k files.

And my guess would be that any third party, before taking any claim seriously, would like to see evidence that you have personally:

A. Suffered from the known issue (you have not)

B. Had cause to seek help from the company in question amount that issue (you have not)

C. Had not, during your latest interaction with the company, within the last month said:

Don't you think?

Getting shirty because you aren't serious enough about DJing to have a second iTunes library without your damn podcasts in it strikes me as rather histrionic.

I'll be honest this is why I switched to a Macbook Pro.

No matter what I did with Windows it just never ran properly.

Was excited by the release of SDJ 1.2 for the NS7 but alas ! Same old same old. It crashes at start up and I have slightly north of 30K files.

The only way I could get around this on Windows was to make custom database folders and manually rename before launching the application.

I agree, although in my studio I converted a Mac Mini to a Win7 machine and itch runs great.

Its not a pc Mac issue. Trust me, my laptop would smash a Mac in performance and reliability. Its the users. I know things that maybe the average user doesn't. But it's also what I do for a living. For example, Capt Lawsuit up there said he upgraded from Vista to Win 7. That tells me his laptop is at least 2 yrs old, more than likely an i3 processor, with 4gb of ram. He is probably running more bloatware than he realizes off that pirated upgrade of Windows. ......and then they complain about it not working right. I have over 80,000 sings and roughly over 8,000 videos in my library and it never crashed.

Unless someone gives me a more technical explanation I refuse to believe its because I dont use a MAC. I mean its a quad core I7 with 8G of RAM. The very same hardware will load my Library and run fine using ITCH 1.7. I do not consider myself an average user because I have actually developed software for various platforms in the past. I however must admit I spend over 90% of my time on Linux not Windows and may have lost some of my windows chops gradually. I have tried most of the guides and articles to optimize my PC and failed.

Eddie, there are a lot of factors to consider. Everything has to work together to get performance. For instance, you use a quad core I7 w 8gb of ram. Since Serato is 32 bit you can only use 4 of the 8 to process it. It could be something as little as your hard drive spinning at 5,400 instead of 7,200 rpm. More than likely in all computers I've worked on for DJ's, it's your processes. Things running on your computer you didn't even know were running. Check out www.Blackviper.com and try to eliminate as much as possible. Make sure your HD's are at minimun 7,200rpm and if your laptop can hold two hard drives, install a 128gb SSD drive with your OS on it and music on a 7,200rpm in the second bay

I'm sorry but I can't help myself on this one: Bullshit.
A 5400 RPM HDD is the reason why Serato DJ crashes on a Windows PC with a large library? Seriously?


Yes and no. Address Windowing Extensions renders this moot. However, this is not applicable as Serato DJ and ITCH crash before even reaching 2 GB. If you have a large library, they will crash. It's that simple.


There is none applicable to the situation. Most persons say to get a Mac as it's just easier for them to drop the $1500 and get a MacBook Pro than take the time to setup and maintain a proper windows machine for $500 less.

Admittedly, Serato products tend to run better on Mac OS X, but evidence has been provided for years that this is more the fault of Serato than the Operating System it is running on - the one exception being Whitelabel.net files and Windows 7.

Papa Midnight, I hate to break it to you but drive speed it very important. Can it be a lone factor, yes. Is it likely, no. But hey what do I know, oh wait I have my MCSE, do you?

Oh and I forgot, to use Addressing Windows Extension, the application must have "lock pages in memory" added to the user's right set by the admin. Hey thanks for playing big boy, but let me handle the technical stuff, you just sit there and look pretty.

You know, I was going to address this, and was in the process of doing so, but then you posted this...


...so... you mean the administrative single user (aside from system accounts) that every single owner of a PC is?

Head -> Desk

Exception Error

logic_error
invalid_argument


Penis envy is an amazing thing it seems... no where near as amazing as the ego's need for it to stroke itself, but amazing none the less.

Puns fully intended.

Now let those of us who are truly trying to help others solve their issues (and not the egotistical ones related to penis envy - you'll have to seek outside help on that yourself) actually carry on a conversation and move along.

You were in the process of addressing what? Your certifications? I'll give you a minute to google some.... oh and just because someone owns the computer doesn't mean they give themselves admin rights. Not every user has Admin rights dumbass. And even if they are the admin, how many know how to set the AWE let alone any user rights! It's people like you that screw it up for everyone. But hey what do you expect from a guy that let's his vinyl sit out in the sun.... "Time to use INT mode" dumbass.

sighhhhhhhhh.. crash crash crash, either crashes immediately on startup or after a minute or so when I try to load a track

my vci is still a farking paperweight >:(

gonna go write another support request... so goddam disappointed :/

i've said it before but given my frustration I feel it is worth saying again:
* Traktor has equal or more functionality, is also 32 bit, also integrates with itunes and doesn't crash with the same sodding library!

Windows: Windows 7 Home Premium Edition (64-bit) Service Pack 1 (Build 7601)
Memory (RAM): 8100 MB
CPU Info: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2630QM CPU @ 2.00GHz
CPU Speed: 2003.7 MHz
Hard Disks: C: 119.1GB (SSD) | D: 698.6GB (7200rpm)

current itunes folder on d: is 240gig
of that, music is 112gig around 16000 tracks
0 crates, I don't use the Serato folder structure at all
SDJ on the ssd and music library on the 7200rpm

Again, please continue to stroke your own ego.

Scooter, did you disabled your onboard audio?

WTF are you blabbing about now?

Wasn't that your own logic? That it had to be on an SSD and the music on a 7200rpm drive?



Explain away, Mr. Wizard.

sorry but i stripped my windows install down to bare bones and turned everything off that is not needed, system running at nothing! open itch 1.2gb ram boom crash! it is just serato are crap at making software and this is why they have all these bugs. VDJ and traktor are 32bit have way more features and options and are bigger file size programs but do not suffer from these issues. only serato do. there is something really fucked up in there code but no one there has the skill to fix it. shame but the truth!! it does work better on the mac side! so maybe if you can install hackintosh on your pc it will then work.

I'll try to talk slow and not use big words and where available, I'll try to post pictures to make it easy for you.

First let me say I only speak to PC users. Mac users are on your own. Listen, I know maybe 8 people in real life from here. These people posting stuff I don't know them let alone their systems. Without seeing the computer in person, I have to be very general in what I say. As far as the HD's 5,400 vs 7,200, speed is everything. Would you rather pull a 1 gig video file from an HD running at 5,400 or 7,200 rpm. If speed wasn't a factor, no one would waste money on SSD drives except for security. Computers are a pain in the ass. I do IT security and server maintenance for one of, if not the biggest hospital in the world. We just ordered 2,000 laptops for nurse's stations and carts, all identicle but if you turn them all on at the same time, they have different load times. Just because some one has an i7 over an i3 doesn't make it better. I know some 3rd gen i3's tuned right will blow away a 1st or 2nd i7's. Quad core, dual core. Everyone's computer is different. I never claimed to have the answers, but what I can claim is that if I had the computers in front of me, I could get them running flawlessly. I would almost bet my all my cars that the services and onboard soundcards on their computers are the problem. That being said, I give very vague answers like 5,400 vs 7,200 rpm HD's because someone running a 3rd Gen i7 isn't going to have the same throughput as someone running an Intel Celeron 1.1 (God forbid someone is using one of those) and I don't know what every person uses.

As for my case its obviously not the hardware. I really doubt it is my windows settings because I have checked them several times and NOTEWORTHY , the same settings run ITCH 1.7 without a problem (go figure). It obviously does not mean anything but I also once had an MCSE NT track in 2000 (whatever that means). Whatever happened to trace points, logs, debug mode and decent exception handling better than this cluster F&^$ when I open these applications. I feel like I should be paid for this headache not me paying for it !

I agree Eddie, they need a Linux version. Did you shut off non-essential services? I mean even setting them to "disable" and not "manual"?

Also let me say this, I've never used Itch. I only use Scratch Live and I use Serato DJ in case my TTM57 should quit.

Yes I disabled them. The URL you provided was helpful and I identified afew that were still running. It is frustrating for me but people running this successfully on similar hardware/OS keeps me trying.

Unfortunately it's probably just one thing that is so simple, people over look it. Best of luck. If I think of anything, I'll drop you a message

you can shut down everything but if sdj/itch uses 1.2gb ram it crashes end of!! you have to get your crates/playlists down to only a few and get the amount of tracks down.

for some reason ssl can load a massive! library compared to itch and sdj. But itch below 1.7 seems to also load a bigger library than SDJ.

its just seratos programming skillz.

But i do hope you find a way to get it working.

also i found making sure ALL subcrates were closed made it open better.

So let's see...

Condescending
An Egotist
And a severe case of penis envy, so much to the point he has to broadcast his possibly non-existent MCSE cert which has him working as a Sys Admin at a possibly non-existent job at what is possibly one of the world's largest non-existent hospitals...

Well, if it makes you feel better bragging anonymously to a random person on the internet, more power to you. Don't let me rain on your parade. Anywho, thanks for browsing my twitter pictures. Sometimes, when you do outdoor events in the summer during a heat wave, vinyl tends to get hot and warp. Shit happens. It's control vinyl. New one was all of $12. You clearly felt the need to point it out, though, which shows me just how insecure you are Mr. I-Have-An-MCSE-And-Work-At-A-Hospital.

Classic Narcissist.


We've made this point for years, WOOLSEY. It's definitely a problem with the way the program is written for Windows.

man i'm at the end of my tether with this thing :/
serato.com

i've tried everything I can think of including:
- optimizing for latency/ shutting down services/disabling drivers
- removing virtual midi devices
- freeing up HD space

question to others here, how big is your library when it has been working for you?
itunes folder size? how many tracks? how much of the itunes library is actually music vs podcasts/vides/ios apps?

my situation doesn't seem to reconcile with the test results that Serato has been mentioning:

"50000 tracks - 0 crates
DJ 1.0 -
offline ok -> offline play ok -> online play ok -> shutdown ok.
DJ 1.1 -
offline ok -> offline play ok -> click manage auth ok -> online play ok -> shutdown ok.

125000 tracks - 0 crates
DJ 1.0 -
offline ok -> offline play (crash) -> online play ok -> shutdown ok.
DJ 1.1 -
offline (crash)"

Question to Martin C/Serato, can you please be more specific regarding upper limits of itunes library size, is it solely related to number of itunes "music" tracks or is it the overal size of the itunes folder in terms of gigs?




this is torture, playing for a couple of minutes with my lovely looking controller for a minute or two and then BANG crash....... :/

@ all people who think a 7200 rpm hd could solve the memory problem:
please, do not try to give tips, if you don't know what we are talking about.

Actually it was Facebook, not twitter. And the only reason I did that was that apparently your business doesn't make enough money to keep your website going. And I wasn't bragging, just stating a fact so that the forum members can decide whether they would like to listen to you or myself. I used the hospital as an example of turning on several identical computers on at the same time and get different results..... and what is this obsession with my penis? That's twice you've mention it.....

And DJ Nice, if you are using a slower processor and pulling huge video files from a second drive, the RPM can make a difference. It won't make a difference whether the program works or not, only how well. If you decide to change tracks with just a couple of seconds left in the playing track, you need all the speed you can. Also it has nothing really to do with MP3's as much as MP4, VOB's etc

The sad part about all of this is that I purchased a used Dual-core mac book pro with a 5400rpm 500 hdd and 4gb RAM. Itch runs flawlessly on that. Yet realistically this was supposed to have been a downgrade from the HP I owned that gave me all sorts of problems with Itch. It had an i7, 7600rpm 500 hdd, and 8gb RAM on a tweaked win7. So sh!t maybe it is some issues in the code. I still love Itch way better than Traktor or VDJ though. Yet I can really sympathize with those pc DJs who are having a rough time with Itch. I went a year before I decided to flip over to the MBP because that HP was pretty dam expensive. Now it belongs to my son who is in college and loving it.

I am not an expert but there is alot more than RPM's to storage performance and I have seen cases where 15K drives did better than SSD's. There are factors like platters, density that will affect a disk. The nature of the I/O is also important sequential/random and read/write not to mention the filesystem. There are cases (Sequential i/O) where the difference in IOP's between 7200 and 5400RPM is almost negligible due to density of 5400RPM disk.

True but would I rather have a 15,000 rpm over an ssd? Simple answer no. Even if it is faster than an ssd, it doesn't out weigh the other benefits of the ssd. Power consumption on a 15k is enormous. Also ssd's have no moving parts so if you're laptop is dropped, you're less likely to lose the hd. And a platter drive, regardless of speed, you damage the platter, bye bye data.

CORRECTION= 7200RPM

The prosecution rest.

Yes, everyone should listen to the Germans, they always know what's best..... Oh wait WW II. Nevermind

You thought that was an acceptable thing to write? For real?

IBTL.

Not to mention he thinks I'm actually German... not that it matters if I am or not...
hold on a sec...

Sure did.

dig away, Nitro.

media.tumblr.com

DJ PM you are the dumbest person on here. Can you tell me where I said you were German? Or maybe the quote you used was made from a man from Germany.

Here you go DJ PM swagsoldseparately.com

Not even worth my time to respond to...

Thank God, he's gonna shut up now

Amen.

So anyway if any person had any questions, feel free to drop me a message.

I have one: Why do you think it's ok to make casually xenophobic jokes?

They aren't xenophobic jokes. I lived in Germany. If I could be there right now, I would sitting in a restaurant somewhere essen ein Schnitzel und ein Bier. I have no fear of Germans

Dudes, is all this necessary?

If you insist on using the forum then stick to the topic, otherwise I would suggest you go somewhere else.

Yeah he's right. I apologize to the forum members.

Please chill out guys.

Hey ScooterAdam:




Sorry, but I dont have anything more accurate to give you. We are working on trying to get more accurate data, but as you can imagine the list of variables to take into consideration are endless:

- Crate amount
- File amount
- File sizes
- File types
- File location length
- iTunes being used (iTunes managing your music or not?)
- External or internal drives

Stick to the topic at hand people. For a macbook running i5 2.4ghz 8gb ram 250 ssd for os x and 1tb 7200 hhd internal for music...


What is the magic number for crates / files in sdj?

I am currently at 25000 songs with roughly 150 crates. Havent played with sdj software yet.


*** Does the amount of subcrates in a crate effect memory usage (aka crashing)? In other words, should i break up subcrates in more crates or have more subcrates under one crate?

Does the level of subcrate usage cause issues? (ex: 2 subcrates in a crate, each subcrate has 4 subcrates, each of those subcrates have numerous subcrates, etc)

Anything you can do to reduce the number of crates/subcrates overall is the best thing you can you do. Whether you have some subcrates within a parent crate, or subcrates within subcrates, is less important I think.

Hi Martin C,

I'm not sure how much more specific I can be regarding my situation/specs.

I mentioned several times now, I do ALL my music management in itunes, use its playlists/smart playlists and don't use any Serato crates.

Please let me know as according to the info you mentioned earlier I don't appear to have very out of the ordinary specs right?

- Crate amount 0
- File amount ~16500
- File sizes Total itunes folder 240gig, of that, music is 112gig around 16000 tracks
- File types 90% mp3, at least half over 320bitrate, at least a couple of gigs of samples are in my itunes library as wavs
- File location length?? itunes manages my music, is currently on my second HD a 7200rpm drive in a caddy where the optical drive would have been
- iTunes being used (iTunes managing your music or not?) YES!
- External or internal drives c: around 120gig SSD, d: around 650gig 7200rpm

Are you and your team actually actively doing anything on this now?

I love the controller and it's potential but... for the best of a year I can't use it and it seems ridiculous having to look at buying a macbook or cutting my library down to use SDJ with it when Traktor works just fine!

The secondary drive, the 650, is that a hybrid drive?

nope, no hybrid is a normal 7200rpm laptop harddrive that has been installed where the optical drive would have gone, it sits inside a caddy thing

the main app / c: drive is purely a SSD around 120gig

Using serato crates or itunes playlists uses same amount of memory! So you need to make ya itune playlists smaller less playlists less subplaylists and folders. The file path does seem to help aswell. (But you wants to put all there music in the root of a harddrive in one big mess) also the amount of music. - 12,000 seems to run good with itch/sdj with not to many crates/playlists.

There is no way around this apart from makimg your library SMALLER and LESS crates/playlists.

As said you can have much better library results on the Apple OSX operating system than on Windows.

If getting a macbook pro is totally out the question and serato do not have the skill to find these issues then you are left with only two options.

1. Make your library smaller with less crates/playlists.

2. Move to another software.

End of that is how it is!!!

please leave my threat. Vollpfosten

OK, thanks for the clarification re Serato crates and itunes playlists having same memory usage.

You answer raises more questions for me though:

* You mention the number 12000, what is that? total podcasts/music tracks/videos combined or only itunes 'music' tracks? I have only around 100gig of 'itunes music' and the rest is ios apps/podcasts/videos etc totalling over 200gig

* I will check exact number later but I have about 100-200 itunes playlists (smart and normal), what based on your experience is 'not to many'?

* What are you referring to by file path? I currently let itunes manage my music and the itunes folder is in the standard structure, it is however on a different physical drive than SDJ if you think that is a problem? should SDJ and the itunes library be on the same hard drive? it would be a shame not run SDJ on my SSD but if it would help...

I am trying to do the best with what I have.
What I have is a fairly decently specced custom win 7 laptop
I would suggest that the ability to massively downsize my music library is no so much of a 'skill' as an annoyance.
I have been using Traktor since FinalScratch days, no switch required, thats what makes this so painful to constantly be reminded how easy things can work
I would like to switch to SDJ if it would stop crashing as I like the elastic beatgrids, tight jog integration and wave forms, for everything else Traktor is in the lead IMO.

I here you, just saying iv seen the memory issue start with people when they get to over 12,000 files in serato.

Again this all depends how many crates/playlists there is.

Best bet it to make a new library just for SDJ.

I know you have a great laptop but the issue is the software can not use all that great laptop.

I don't know what more anyone can do or say for you.

Just gotta make a smaller library, why dont you close itunes down in sdj then make crates and drag from itunes to crates the stuff you really need and see how you get on see how much you can add till its starts freezing/crashing.

Thanks for the constructive feedback.

I guess you mean the total should be no more than 12000 itunes items, regardless if they are podcasts, music, video, as long as they have audio I assume SDJ tries to load them in memory.

Did you have an estimate how many itunes playlists?

It looks like my last thing to try is to run multiple itunes libraries, one strictly for DJing and another with podcasts/ios stuff, still gonna be painful cutting down my music files library, I really liked having ready access to lots of tracks that I collected over the years

not entirely sure how it works when you have multiple itunes libraries on the same computer, which one does SDJ try to load up, am guessing it is based on the last one opened in the itunes app

For me, I used to have hundreds of subcrates. Possibly over a thousand. Nested subcrates at that (i.e.: Promo Only -> Release (i.e.: Urban Club, Urban Radio, Alternative Club, etc.)-> Year -> Month). At some point, I wiped all my crates and did a complete rebuild from the ground up.

If Serato ITCH crossed 1.2GiB of Memory Usage, instant crash.

This is really what it comes down to. For some reason, Serato's (and I mean this across the board for all products) software does not manage large databases very well. Large amounts of music is one thing, but a large number of crates and subcrates does not help the situation one bit.


I'm not sure if such an arbitrary number is the determinate factor. I presently have about 14,500 in mine (give or take) and have had more with success. I plan to add more once again after I complete re-organising other crates and drive directories.

The one thing I do differently, however, is I use an NTFS drive and have a Hackintosh which I use to DJ that I specifically did not enable the ability to write to NTFS partitions on. I do my database management on Windows and playout on Mac OS X. I'm not saying that there's any benefit to doing so (outside of preventing unintended destruction or corruption of my crates when playing), but it's my personal habit.

Granted, I do not (and refuse to) use iTunes.

Thanks To DJ Nice, and Martin C for illuminating this issue!

Is there any way to purge the serato library to rebuild a smaller one that serato dj can handle? (Windows 7 w/ itunes)

I don't know about anyone else but I'm looking forward to taking serato dj for a spin on my ns7.

you can Double you Database folder and build 2 different kind of databases. so you might have a smaller one for club gigs and a bigger one for private weddings.

you also might export some not often used genres to a USB stick or a (2nd) external HD.

so SERATO......what's going on? You know for 18 month, that Itch and now SDJ has this BUG. Yes, a bug....not a special 32bit problem.

You did nothing to solve this problem. Your optimization causes, that every new version need more RAM by itself......

As I was saying earlier, the only way around this I found is to make custom serato databases and rename them before you launch the application.

Since leaving Windows, I no longer have this problem it's application issue on the Windows side.

Maybe not technically Windows alone by itself but Windows + SSL/Itch/SDJ has this issue.

It is not an issue on OSX.

shure? OSX has no RAM bug above 1.2 GB?

it still does it on mac osx but for some reason serato uses alot less ram usage on macbook than it does on windows.

Well all I know is my database of 70,000+ tracks loads just fine on OSX with 8gb of ram.

I have about 18,000 tracks and about 100 crates/subcrates give or take and i load up no problem in about 10 seconds

I have a ton of subcrates as well. Now I'm not sure if it's because I'm using the Alchimie tool to manage my db that's making it work well also.

Not sure what i got but its at its limit if i have sub crates open then close software reppen itch or sdj and get out of memory crash freeze.

Thats on mac osx 10.6.8

Oh, I'm actually on 10.8.2

Actually I believe 10.8.3, I did the update when it launched.

Hackintosh is also presently running 10.8.3

well I now tried creating another itunes library (hold down shift when opening) and creating only one playlist in this, to this one playlist I add 20 tracks

SDJ still crashes when trying to load, that makes me think that SDJ is somehow hardcoded to only load only the 'main' itunes library

is there a way to make SDJ use a different library on the same pc laptop? (short of getting rid of it)

Please file a help request as well for this please.

serato.com

could you kindly elaborate?

this was when you were still on a PC right, did you have itunes installed? if so how do you disable SDJ from loading it, if not was it just that you would drag files into Serato crate structure

Don't get me wrong, I see the general sentiment here from the last few posts...
doesn't work / don't bother / buy a mac or sell up and go back to Traktor because noone gives a hoot....
Am just exploring all conceivable options before giving up.

scooterADAM yesterday I actually uninstalled itunes completely as well as its media library/files but it was still the same predicament.

Update .... I opened my working ITCH 1.7.1 and unchecked the import Itunes Library setting, closed ITCH and then Opened SDJ and for the first time I was able to play SDJ. I played about 10 songs only and I did not remove any songs from my Library (Aprox. 34,000). I will try ITCH 2.2.2 in afew minutes and update the thread.

thats because itunes songs add to the song count and if it was in your serato before adding to your itunes library it gets counted twice.

Hey can I ask a question for these guys having trouble, Are your songs in 1 folder, several folders, or several folders with sub-folders?

ive tried all ways with same results

you should open a help request

well for me they are in a bunch of windows sub folders based on the way that itunes manages tracks

it seems those of you who have this working are either using macosx or not using itunes to manage you music, is this not the case for anyone?

help request just sitting there for a week now.

Definitely don't use itunes for anything but purchasing music. All my database handling is done through Alchemie Zinc now.

This is what my file structure looks like, I used to use the java app to build the crates from the file structure, but eventually that just fell apart. So this is what it is for my current library.

www.kittmaster.com

www.kittmaster.com

about 5 Folder with 800 \subcrates and ..\sub subcrates

I don't know if it would make a difference but this is how I have mine, 1 hard drive had 27 folders in it, 0-9 and A-Z with each folder contains artist that start with that letter. On second drive same thing but for videos. Then I use only smart crates sorted by Genre 80's, 90's, oldies, rock, country then I have all my remixes sorted by two genres. For instance "Xmix 80's" "Xmix Country". That way they show up in more than one crate. I don't know if that will work for you guys but I hope it helps.

with the day, SERATO offers a possibility to create sub crates as smart crate, I will follow you

What i have noticed is that with the 1.2 it loads six effects on startup , so this easily pushes the Ram it uses past 1.2 gig especially if you have a large database , what to do is rename your _serato_ folder and your database v2 file to something else temporarily and let it create blank libraries , you should be able to load the program without it crashing , go to the effects panel and switch the effects on both sides from loading/displaying 3 effects to displaying just one on each side .

This worked for me , along with removing a lot of files from my database , only just got a DDJ-SX 2days ago so still finding ways to make it more stable , it is a shame it is not a 64 bit program , come on serato , do we need to send donations so you can assign a team to make a 64bit version ?

well i got SDJ working for like an hour last night without itunes library integration

first deinstalled SDJ (important to do before changing itunes libraries, because if SDJ is already installed it seems to go for the main one even if you have switched)
then while holding down shift opening my itunes library, choosing a new blank itunes library
then reinstalling SDJ
opening SDJ and going straight for options, unclick 'show itunes library'
now opening SDJ, it doesn't have any library in it
then creating a crate
reopening itunes with my normal +200gig library
opening an itunes playlist/select all and drag into the newly created crate

then was able to use SDJ with my vci380 on my win7pc albeit not with my main music library

running via a workaround still doesn't solve the problem raised by this thread:
- still can't use my main itunes music library directly
- a lot of upfront work to recreate my itunes playlists in SDJ crates
- requires manual maintenance to keep SDJ crates in line with my itunes playlists

Now I think that its safe to assume that the way that the library loading (seemingly memory inefficient and non scalable) code is, is so deep in the core code of SDJ/Itch that it can't be easily fixed, hence why Serato give no suggestion of a fix here any time soon. Furthermore I think we can all logically assume that Serato has ZERO plans to make a 64bit version any time in the next 1-2 years.

@DJQuartz: I looked into Alchemie Zinc and if I read correctlty on another thread here they may soon introduce itunes playlist->SDJ crate sync, this could help speed up this manual database recreation process, still a workaround though

Well, I'm not having database issues on OSX, so I'm just using Alchimie + Dr. Tag for all my track management.

if you dont have a idevice(s) i'd just get rit of itunes.

your advise is sensible but...

i have done so much work putting together smart playlists, tagging metadata and I do sync to iphone/ipad/ipodnano... for me its just easier sticking with itunes

i realize that it is pretty famously rubbish on the pc but yeah at least, the integration works perfect with my traktor rig, so for now I guess i'm stuck doing the workaround I mentioned above

Honestly, I never used itunes with SSL/Itch and I still had problems on the Windows side.

It's going to require a rewrite of the windows version to fix this.

Nor have I. Granted, I hate iTunes so that has something to do with my not using it.

I am inclined to agree, Quartz.

I have a Macbook Pro 13inch,I use for SSL and it runs flawlessly with my big database of music ,I got a VCI-380 and started using Serato DJ and it crashes ( I don't use Itunes) Opened up a ticket a few days ago and haven't gotten a response.Seems like the product has a major flaw i this area, sucks because the VCI-380 is damn good hardware but Serato DJ seems to be a let down so far.

yeah its bullcrap,i have 200,00 songs on external hard drive,i have a lenova i7 8 gigs of memory with 3.1ghz processor,should be plenty of power
to run serato dj,but i got my 2nd pioneer ddj-sx,hooked up my 2 tb external hard drive and turned on serato dj installed music folder,started annalyzing it and again pioneer ddj-sx froze and serata dj closed,so heres what i didI uninstalled everything,reinstalled everything,
then i renamed _serato_ folder to old_serato_ and _datadv2_ to _datadatadv2_ on both laptop and external hard drive serato folders.this time i did not put large music folder into serato dj and did not have it annalyze it,thats were the problem is,i plugged external hard drive to laptop,turned on serato dj,turned on pioneer ddj-sx,i just dragged 1 song at a time into virtual drives and BAM IT WORKS,,i had MediaMonkey annalyze all my music on external hard drive and you can search for song throu it too,this is just external hard drive fix until i get my large internal hard drive to put music on,put most popular music on internal drive and have serato annalyze them,keep majority on external without annalyzing
hope this help some of you out

current recommendation for those unlucky enough to be one of the minority experiencing this low priority problem:
- all music on the same drive, preferably an SSD, in as simple as possible folder structure as possible
- as little music in your Serato library as possible
- as few Serato crates as possible
- don't use iTunes
- don't use a PC

So let me process your logic...
Near 1TB 2.5" SSD purely for music storage, $599.99 (www.newegg.com)
Crappy folder structure
Limited Serato Library
Few Serato Crates
Don't Use iTunes (I don't disagree)
Don't use a PC (So, throw out that 3rd-gen i7 with 16GB of RAM and a GTX680M).
...
...
...
Or just fix the bloody program.

agree with ya, but it doesn't look like that will happen any time soon, so the (somewhat ridiculous) reccomendation stands

Or use cdjs with scratchlive.

just for the record I have 50,000 tracks on a 5400 rpm 1tb hdd in the super drive slot. I use iTunes and have about 75 playlists (smart and regular) and 20 crates.

When running sdj I do not experience any issues.

So with that known, you can rule out iTunes and you can rule out the type of hard drive the music is stored on.

Hope your problem is resolved.

Someone tried to make that claim earlier and turned into a clown insulting anyone who disagreed with them and trying to make their e-ego get bigger at the expense of others (Insecurity at it's finest). Utterly ridiculous.


I personally don't use iTunes so I cannot speak to it.


At one point, I was in excess of 65,000 tracks on a 5400rpm external drive myself. This was before I wiped all my crates (due to them becoming corrupted resulted from a crash due to the memory bug) and started from scratch. I have not completed reimporting all my tracks and removing dupes (and I am in the process of cleaning up ID3 tags), but I was in excess of a six or seven hundred crates/subcrates/nested-subcrates at one point (this is no understatement or sarcasm). I'm not sure what the tipping point was, but I know there was a point where my RAM exceeded a certain amount after so many songs / crates were loaded and Serato ITCH would consistently crash without failure.

I have not had the same experience in ITCH or SDJ today (due to a significantly decreased library size and crate amount - for the time being anyway), however my total crates has been reduced to around 80-90 for the time being.

I have close to the same setup and have experienced no issues using iTunes to manage my music and use a combination of iTunes smart playlists and Serato Smart Crates.

If you have over 50,000 songs, it would be my suggestion that you need to clean out your library. 200,000+ songs is just plain crazy. Who needs that much music for a gig?

SSD will *not* make a difference in this case. It has not effect on the memory print.

@nik39: Agreed. SSD has no impact or benefit over using a standard internal HDD.

After all, all you are doing is loading a 5-25 MB song into memory. With SSD we are talking about a 0.00001 MS of speed increase.

That logic is broken.
One, who says it's all being used for a gig?
Two, who says you don't play more than one genre? Open Format gigs? Freestyle gigs?
Three, not all of it is for gigs.
Four, you'd be amazed at what can be requested at some events.
Five, if I kept going this wouldn't end so I'm going to stop here...

@DJ PM: I play at multiple locations per weekend playing different genres of music. One venue is Rock, retro, alternative, party music, and some top 40 sprinkled in. My other venue is dance, urban, and top 40. I have music for all that and more any my library isn't over 60,000 songs.

That being said. Every one of my 60,000 songs is club playable at any time (no filler). I keep a pretty lean Serato library :-)

Awww someone is thinking about me again..... As I stated before, when it comes to music, internal, external, 5400, 7200, HD, SSD doesn't really make a difference. However if you plan on pulling huge HD video files, you're better off with the fastest read drive you can afford.

I'm not having database issues either on 10.8.3 with 1.2 @ 70,000+ tracks.

I have a system drive and music drive installed using the dvd drive kit.

As it has been said repeatedly, just because YOU choose not to have that many songs, doesn't mean everyone has to be like YOU. Since when are YOU the barometer of how things should be done? You must not have read the part where at one point one of the selling points of ITCH > now DJ > said you can have unlimited amount of songs etc....clearly we've proven otherwise, but let me say this, if the "OS" can handle storing all of those files, then Serato should be able to index them and deal, clearly there is an issue due to x32 bumping into the the app RAM limit.

Yes, the answer is, trim your library, sorry, I shouldn't have too.

If VDJ, Trakktor, Torq all can handle it all gracefully, don't you think a premiere piece of software like Serato should also?....think about it.

Everyone has different work flows, if I choose to carry the kitchen sink and was sold a bill of goods that can hold that kitchen sink, it better not leak when in operation......and right now....it's flooding.....and more than one or two people are seeing the same issue.......we can't ALL be wrong.

Are you guys talking Windows or Mac OSX right now?

Mostly on Windows, but has been also seen on Mac but not as often.

I've only seen it once on Mac, but the Windows binary is the main culprit here.

I can get it on mac, just leave all my subcrates open then close software reopen and get out of memory hang. I have to open scratchlive first make sure all subcrates are closed.

How do you find out how many files are in your serato library???

The funny thing is VDJ can load your serato crates and itunes library and work fine! Serato itch and sdj can not! Very strange indeed!

From Slashdot today:

apple.slashdot.org

I see nothing changes.

I've seen some best practice suggestions to mitigate crashes due to the 32bit Ram constraint (e.g., reduce the number of crates), but can someone put together a best practice list of actions that we can do to reduce the amount of RAM that is used while using Serato DJ or Itch?

@Kittmaster: whoa, what's with the hostility. I never claimed to be a barometer or anything else.

All I've tried to do is provide a hypothesis on why Serato crashes when opening large libraries. Until the fine people at Serato correct the issue, then a practical suggestion would be to trim the library, or at least the crates.

Best thing you can do is if it is related to library size get rid of some crates and remove some files from your library. Or you can do what i do put only files you regularly play in your library. and use Traktor or Vdj and set up your crates there and just drag songs from there to Itch or Sdj. if you also use SSL just get a septate hard drive for SSL with the whole collection because SSL don't have this problem.

Not really trying to be hostile, but comments like this:



What kind of response do you expect to get? There are people with a lot less files and haviing similiar issues. Scaling back your library is NOT the solution, a fix to the app is the only solution. We've been working around this for 18 months....so continually hearing 'scale back your library' gets pretty old, pretty fast.

Sorry if it came off as hostile, it was more of a "make you think" about what your saying that we are expected to follow......everyone has different work flows. Crazy to you, doesn't make it crazy for everyone else......more like.....being prepared for any and everything. So don't take it personal.

End of day, it just needs to be fixed.

I feel inclined to agree.


Agreed.

is tere ever gonna be a fix? or will Serato promise a fix and then never come true. kinda like "Itch"

Promise a fix? Hell, don't get ahead of yourself. We haven't even had a response.

I guess the question is, what needs to happen for this to get priority in the the current SDJ development roadmap?

Personally I think the biggest reason for is based on reputational risk.

Serato (mainly SSL) in my head has had a kind of simple/stable brand image. Not a lot of frills but rock solid.

Itch and now SDJ on the other elicit for me a very different image, something of a very capable but very delicate piece of software. I used to (early versions) think Itch was also rock solid but my experience has shown me otherwise and I don't think it is only me.

If this temperamental, prone to crash perception gradually becomes the norm it will not be taken seriously.

Commercially I guess this is currently offset by "what other new features can we work on/new controllers can we map that will make us instant revenue?" and when some peeps go on and on on a forum it doesn't warrant any action in comparison. This combined with unfeasibly long time it takes to produce a mapping for a new controller.

Traktor doesn't run out of RAM due to a large library.
SSL doesn't. (or rather not usually from what I hear)
Itch/SDJ does.

How professional is SDJ?
How professionsl does it want to be seen?
Are we that much of minority here that our requests are irrelevant?

It also happens for SL.

Yup.

Hey man, at least give me some credit. I have responded as much as I possibly can in this discussion and read what you guys post every day. I can promise this will be fixed, but I can't promise when it will happen.



Your requests aren't irrelevant, we hear everyone loud and clear. Its really a massively frustrating problem.

Im sorry but there isn't anything else I can say that I haven't already said in this discussion :(

Martin,
I do know you are trying to help, but as a loyal user from my end it feels like this is not going to happen any time soon. I have been monitering this crash post and other ones and everyone from Serato says the same thing "downsize the Library" that is no fix. so it gets annoying to keep hearing the same thing over and over. I have been working with Dave W on my crash issue and its still the same. The users want to hear fix not a band aid. We are all doing this to make money and survive. The idea is to make our voices heard and to fight to protect our investments and time we have put into building libraries through the years.

I can't disagree with most of what you have said Phuture2.

All we (as Support Staff) can offer you guys at this stage is assistance to downsize the library. The other portion of our job is to try and make your guys voices heard and have this issue fixed faster. We do what we can with both aspects.

However, yes, its important this thread is continued, and you guys do continue to voice your opinions.

I have to apologize Martin as you indeed have responded previously on this topic. I know there are other issues as well. For me, this is just particularly a source of frustration; and, when it has existed for so long, I needed to vent such. Much to that effect, I do believe many an end user here could echo the sentiments expressed by Phuture2 a couple of post above.

Thanks for acknowledging I am at least present, even though that does give you guys a fix. I completely understand you need to vent. This is the best place to do that.

Bar a few misunderstandings about how Serato works internally (which is understandable), I sit here and nod my head to most of what you guys post.

Here is what I understand from the feedback in this thread:
- Is this a problem? Yes, large libraries should not cause SDJ to run out of RAM and crash
- Is there a fix now? No
- Is there a workaround? Downsize/simplify structure/no itunes/use mac(debatable)
- Is this a satisfactory workaround? IMO no and I would suggest others feel the same way
- Is Serato actively working on a 64 bit version of SDJ? No, and not in the near future
- Is Serato actively working to fix this problem in the current 32 bit version? Also no, dev priority is elsewhere

So then, all that being the case, the only remaining question to Serato:
- what needs to happen for this issue to be high enough priority that work will be undertaken to fix this in the current version?

I agree with that statement

its annalyzing large music folder that makes serato crash,if you dont add your large music folder from external hard drive to serato and if you just drag individual songs into deck from external hard drive then annalyze there it will work just fine,

its bullcrap,but this is temporary fix until serato figures what the hell to do

DO NOT ADD LARGE MUSIC FOLDER FROM EXTERNAL HARD DRIVE(LIKE 500 GIGS OR MORE) TO SERATO TO ANNALYZE OR IT WILL CRASH PERIOD

Its not only adding music to analyze. Its also reading the tracks fromthe drive after they have been analyzed

its todo with the databasev2 file!!! why because if people delete these files then open sdj or itch they have luck in onpening them. plus VDJ can read serato crates and load them totally fine (if does not read the databasev2 file)

so the databasev2 file has to be the pin point of the issues!!

Do we have a threshold approximation where this occurs.

From my testing SDJ 1.2 actually loads my collection FASTER than SSL 2.4.4 and it doesn't crash whatsoever and works perfectly with SV 1.1.0.5 (Another Discussion)

I have approximately 75,000+ ish tracks in my database right now and I did a clean up recently just after I installed SDJ 1.2

However, I don't use iTunes, I have 8gb with an i7 and OSX 10.8.3. I have a secondary 7200rpm 750gb drive that all my music, serato database resides on solely.

My main system drive is a matching model 7200rpm 750gb drive where all my applications are installed. ie: OS, SSL, SDJ, SV, Ableton, Maschine, Adobe CS6, etc...

I did see this crash issue on the Windows side with Itch with the same database and I had to create custom _Serato_ folders to combat this.

On the OSX side Itch worked out the box and so does SDJ.

Now the only difference that might be on my side is I use Alchemie to manage the database solely.

I don't do any database management in SSL/SDJ anymore apart from deleting bad tracks.

Could this make a big difference?

@ Martin, would my databaseV2 file help for comparison to see if it's maybe corrupt record entries causing issues for these guys vs memory ceiling?

Nope i have used that to make serato database and still crash. it does take ALOT more on mac to crash/out of memory than on windows.

like i have said i can make sdj crash my leaving all my sub crates open when i launch the software.

i also use smart crates.

i'm looking at ways to totally redue my library! make sure all copies of the same are gone and all remixes i never play delete. Just keep radio edits for the requests of stuff i never really play.

also i do have 16gb of ram...

Doesnt matter sdj/itch only uses 1.2gb-1.5gb when it crashes/memory hang.

What you have said here is fair enough. The bottom line though is that if you aren't willing to attempt to try the workaround, the problem will continue to exist for you. I know thats not exactly what anyone wants to hear.



Your answers here are untrue, and go against what I have been saying in this discussion.



This is a fair question. If we were to completely drop all of our current projects and focus ALL of our developers on this one issue, first and foremost (I would love it :)

Secondly, we would have to explain to all owners of the controllers remaining, waiting for Serato DJ support, that the support will be further delayed. Thats the Numark N4, Vestax Typhoon, Novation TWITCH, Vestax VCI-100 mk II, Numark MixDeck Quad, Vestax VCI-300 and the Numark V7. On top of that, existing Serato DJ users will have to wait longer for an update to include any new features/bug fixes.

Lastly, we will also have to explain to Scratch Live users, the next update will be delayed, and they won't be getting any new features we have planned for them.

So, if you were the development manager, would you take on the job of explaining to all of our customers that? How do you think it would go down with all of those people?

Im not trying to ruffle feathers here. I wholeheartedly agree with your notion, but you are failing to consider some of the other aspects of this current dilemma. We really need to get across all the controllers to our new platform, and get a few others thing in order before tackling this problem full on. We are working away at it, but you can't run into a problem head first without doing all the necessary investigation and considering all consequences.



Thanks Quartz, but I believe someone already has your database file here. We aren't running short of large libraries to test with right now I can tell you that much :)

Martin,

This is being said without any emotion or any negativity, I will only ask two questions:

During the ITCH to DJ transition, one of the main points that was made at that time was, and I'm paraphrasing from memory so I could be wrong, that DJ was rewritten from the ground up......I believe that is what was stated, correct? If so, then why does this problem still even exist if that is true?

I don't really expect any answers to those questions, but that is what was presented to us during that time frame, or something really close thereto.

As to the quote below:



If this issue were presented to all Serato partners first and foremost as: we won't be doing anything else until we fix this critical issue....I believe the only statement that needs to be presented is......"We are fixing a severe instability issue that causes the program to crash during a live performance with all hardware controllers"

I don't think there is a Serato partner on the planet that would say.....no.

Just my thoughts, without any negativity or emotion.

I can see the jokes, wisecracks, and statements in the Scratch Live and "General DJ Discussions" forum now. "Button pushers auto-sync not working? LOL!"
...that would be practically inevitable, granted some people have reported above experiencing the same with Scratch Live.


It's not so much the hardware partners that they need to address as it is the customers (that would be us as end users), some of whom are already up in arms that the release of Serato DJ for their devices have been pushed back. I have to agree with Martin's statement:

I haven't sent a database to you guys since I've switched to MacOS and been using Alchemie Zinc for management.

The databases you have are from my Windows system + Itch Sync.

I agree with Martin's statement as well about everything being pushed back, but it can/does globally affect every piece of hardware potentially connected to it. Not just within this thread, seems like every day we are seeing new crash threads....sometimes library related sometimes not.

Totally get this is a very complicated issue that affects everything around it.....and there is no easy answer right now. Just extremely frustrated.

You can add me too the list of fustrated DJS with Serato DJ. I am at my wits end as well. Right now we are all stuck until a fix is availible

Martin C, All I can say is thanks for at least stepping up and answering the tough questions from a frustrated consumer base it may not be what we all want to hear but at least we are hearing from Serato. I hope the next release has an open beta so that we can help to identify and proactively work through issues.Thanks again.

Martin C, cheers for responding, agree that its better than hearing nothing.



OK my apologies if this is indeed untrue...

"64 bit version in near future" - release in next coming year/18months
"Serato is actively working to fix this problem" - at least one developer is currently spending time reworking code to make the 32 bit version code not run out of memory with large libraries

care to elaborate? maybe I missed it but I don't recall reading anything suggesting light at the end of the tunnel here...



surely new features are not being prioritized over this bug fix? maybe I misunderstand your statement but it is very frustrating to hear if this is the case

fair enough if there are other higher priority bug fixes to be resolved earlier, as in bugs that crash the software without a workaround



OK got it, this implies there is only one project team tackling everything at once, not broken down into different teams working on different project streams

so then, assuming that:
new SSL features > fixing SDJ bugs
mapping SDJ controllers > fixing SDJ bugs
other SDJ bug fixes > fixing large library running out of ram crash issue
new SDJ features > fixing large library running out of ram crash issue

just they way Serato works I guess, sucks to be at the bottom of the heap



I guess by customers you are talking about Hardware vendors, SSL user base and SDJ user base.

I don't recall ever seeing concrete new functionality/bug fix roadmap announcements to end users for either SSL or SDJ so that isn't an issue, there isn't anything to communicate.

To SSL hardware partners, can't say nothing, shouldn't even be linked with this issue. That is down to having one team doing everything.

To SDJ hardware partners, do they want their brand associated with crashy software, are they happy to have the reputational risk? this does beg the question though why does everything have to standstill while 'mapping' controllers, can this really not be done in paralell?

Not all code was rewritten, but lots of it was. The overall goal is to make the code more modular, allowing for flexibility in the future. The way I understand what has happened thus far is that many useful chunks of ITCH were used in combination with new code to create Serato DJ. The new code primarily was to break some of the limitations of ITCH in order for us to get to the first stage, however there is still some legacy stuff we need to work through. The library system, as many have pointed out hasn't changed in any dramatic way since Scratch Live, so this is one of the area of the code I would imagine is very similar across all of our DJ software currently.


I am sorry if this is how the message came out. We try and be as accurate as possible, but I am sure you can understand a non developer trying to explain the merging strategy and code architecture may not always come fully correct.



You might be right. I don't wanna to speculate too much, but I would say there would be mixed feelings among our hardware partners. I feel like there are ups and downs to both tactics.



Aah ok, do you want to maybe PM me it or something? I am sure it can come of some use.



I can't disagree with that. The issue for support is very prominent, so we are trying to log numbers of reports and adding additional information to bug reports as we find it, to add further weight to this issue.


I can't make promises about when things will be released. But I surely hope we can do it within that timeframe.



Yes. There isn't ONE dedicated developer working on this issue full time or anything (meaning that it is their role), the work is done in a particular way. If you are familiar with the "Scrum framework" then it might give you an insight as to how we operate. en.wikipedia.org(development)

Basically we have a large backlog of "stories" and MANY of these stories will involve reducing memory usage, improving parts of library etc. These stories are taken into development teams alongside many other stories for other things; features/controller support/investigation stories and other less visible things like creating tests and procedures to improve many other aspects of what we do.

At any point, there will be more than one developer working on memory related stories, in sections. My explanation of the process is brief, but its means we disperse our development resources evenly across all the tasks we need to do in our product range.



Generally no, not NEW features. Multi FX might be the only example of something that was implemented into Serato DJ and was considered fairly high priority. More or less though, we are still just working through reimplementing some of the crucial things that Scratch Live or ITCH has back into Serato DJ. I wouldn't say there are a many features of higher priority, but if you think about how we operate (which I touched on above), lets use a silly example:

- Memory issue requires 100 weeks of work
- Feature X requires 1 week of work, we need to implement 100 features

2 Developers take on the work. We have three options of what we could here:

A: Both devs make 100 features in 50 weeks, nobody works on the memory issue.

B:1 Dev works on the memory issue and takes 100 weeks, the other makes 100 features in the same time.

C: Both devs work on the memory issue in 50 weeks and there are no new features.

You guys may not agree, and you may do things differently if it were up to you, but option B, although the result takes longer, is an even distribution of resources. Please don't take these examples literally though, this is a very crude explanation/example scenario of our procedures here.



No, we do have different teams working on different project streams. My example though was if ALL teams had dropped everything to work on the memory issue.



We often only communicate particular aspects of what we plan to do, as it can be risky to make too many promises when in the software industry things can change in a heartbeat, but its fairly expected of any company to have regular updates and to at least put out versions that resolve outstanding issues. An example of something we have communicated; in my previous post I mentioned that there are several controllers still awaiting Serato DJ support, which has been publicly announced. So yes, there will be something to communicate.



Again, my example was in response to someones elses implied idea of dropping everything we are doing to work on this memory issue. So if this were to happen, we would have to explain to Rane and the Scratch Live customers that they will be waiting longer for a release, because ALL of our resources were dedicated to the memory issue.



I can't speculate on what our hardware partners think in regards to this issue. As I have explained in this post, things are being done in parallel. Thats what I have been trying to explain to you guys this whole discussion. The idea of having everything come to standstill was not my idea, someone else had suggested it.

This issue is also on mac but yes its loads worse on windows.

As I mentioned before, the issue is on your files, if you have too many, it is hard to narrow down wich ones are causing the problem.
Cheers

Not true at all. It is an issue with the software!

Lots of nice workarounds people have done.

* store all music in the root of the harddrive (to cut down file path size)

* reduce the number of crates.

* make sure all subcrates are closed before exiting sdj. (To speed up load time and not use so much memory)

* try not to use itunes (seems from user tests sdj uses abit more memory to load itunes playlists than serato crates)

* Apple OSX works alot better with memory loads than Microsoft Windows. (So for large library best to move to a macbook)

* get the amount of files down in the sdj library. (Try delete any dublicates and any files you will never play or not very often)

* make sure your laptop has 4gb ram. (So there is always upto 2gb free for sdj to use.

All these things seem to help with using sdj with a larger database.

But yes no one should have todo all that just to get it to work.

The point made of bad files could be a corrupt crate or databasev2 file or corrupt music so its always best to try making new crates and new databasev2 file and make sure no corrupt files then try again if it works then the largedatabase issue was not your problem.

Lets hope they nail it one day.

Cheers.

Quality post LJ_WOOLSEY.

Might I just add something to this point:



This is especially true in the case of using the "allow iTunes to manage your music" option. iTunes creates longer file paths depending on the tags of your files. As a result the iTunes Music Library.xml becomes larger because there is more information written to it. I found that generally, if Firefox is unable to open the xml as a text file, its unlikely to work very well in Serato sofware too.

If you have to use iTunes, manage where the music is yourself.

itunes works perfectly fine. i have been using it since 2003 across 4 different laptops (windows and mac). problems if any, are due to user error and/or bad files.

if serato would make smart crates smarter, maybe more people would stop using itunes. and while you're at it, we shouldn't have to manually add new music. auto-scan a directory on startup.

So after 285 responses to this thread....this is the final answer huh?

Thanks.....but you have no idea what your talking about.

i kinda do

No you kinda don't....or at least what this issue/topic is even about.....even Serato acknowledges the problem......you know more than them huh....I doubt it.

DJ Nyce has a very good suggestion as far as how the DB should be handled in later versions,auto scan is a great idea and re-writing the search feature to integrate with spotlight (like other productivity applications do for Mac OS i.e. Alfred, etc...)

Considering the sheer amount of problems that have plagued the PC version since it's inception (news.cnet.com - The response from Apple was which to, and I quote, "boot their machine in Windows' "safe mode" by holding down the Shift key while restarting and temporarily uninstall iTunes."), I humbly disagree.

That said, this from Apple's own KB gave me a laugh: support.apple.com

maybe you can share a little more your configuration that this works for you, I struggle to see what 'user error' you speak of, what are you basing this on?

also what do you mean by 'bad files', are you referring to corrupt files? are you suggesting that the reason for SDJ running out of memory is due to trying to process corrupt files?

TBO this does seem a bit a like trolling. Its not like the others on this forum haven't been trying a bunch of different things to resolve this.

maybe you can share a little more your configuration that this works for you, I struggle to see what 'user error' you speak of, what are you basing this on?

also what do you mean by 'bad files', are you referring to corrupt files? are you suggesting that the reason for SDJ running out of memory is due to trying to process corrupt files?

TBO this does seem a bit a like trolling. Its not like the others on this forum haven't been trying a bunch of different things to resolve this.

maybe you can share a little more your configuration that this works for you, I struggle to see what 'user error' you speak of, what are you basing this on?

also what do you mean by 'bad files', are you referring to corrupt files? are you suggesting that the reason for SDJ running out of memory is due to trying to process corrupt files?

TBO this does seem a bit a like trolling. Its not like the others on this forum haven't been trying a bunch of different things to resolve this.

ive got my own thoughts on this issue and also share the opinions of every one here, ive just transitiond from ssl to sdj and was so exited to be changing over, I see controllers being the way of the future (especialy in the fact that you spend a lot less time looking at and touching your computer), they offer so many features that ssl just dosent have, but you can imagine my disappointment to be having crashing issues the day I started using it, then finding out the issues etc and working through them, ive spent the last 5 days with my laptop running round the clock to clean up and reduce my db size and still it crashes im at around 40k songs now, I hope this issue is resolved soon, but until then ill just plod along trying my best to get it to work as best I can, as well as a dj im also a hardcore gamer, I spend a lot of time with computers (not consols) and ive been involved with numerous alpha and beta dev programs, so im used to the frustration of crashes im not going to try to stir the pot or troll anyone, martin c thank you for taking the time to help us as much as you have with this issue.........it was only a few months ago that ssl would crash if you had a cd in the drive a stp back but now its been fixed, development of a qullity product takes time and I respect that, 64bit os's have been around for a while, and I only know of one person on a 32bit system atm.

I was just wondering how many people are using a 64bit system, either mac or windows? surly most users are on 64bit....but I may be wrong

also how bout a beta program that users can opt into? I know it helps game devs a lot... just putting in my 2 cents thanks and hopfully this all gets resoved soon

oh and one more thank you too martin c, at least your here helping and acknowledging the problem, there are a lot of software companies out there who just dismiss any problems (if you've ever used steam on a computer and had a problem youll know what I mean) there response is more or less.........were perfect its all your fault. (or they go worse and blame the dev, so you get it direct from the dev and it works floorlessly hahaha)

so thank you for your acknowledgment and help :)

woops, just saw I reposted couple of times by accident, please disregard.

when i was spinning with a windows laptop i was at about 20 or 30k and no issues across 2 machines. on machine #2 i started with an empty itunes library. even before wiping the library, no issues with itunes or scratch live.

machine 3 and 4, which are macs, the library has not been reset and now i'm at 60k. sdj loads almost faster than ssl.

for kicks i copied the library to a win 7 desktop (custom i7 5ghz) and win 7 dell (latitude e6430 i7). sdj opens as fast as the macs, with and w/out itunes.

now i realize that everyone is not experiencing good performance on win with large db's, but obviously sdj is capable of running large libraries w/out crashing. so now you have to look at what's different. and the only way to do that is with performance tests. start with an empty library (sdj only or itunes). add songs 10k or so at time.

and yes the software should just work and you shouldn't have to jump through hoops, but if you insist on running win you will have to deal with performance problems.

No one is saying you can't get the libraries to "load" if you piece meal it in, but when you approach 80K plus AND have large file paths and the controller plugged in, you can try it six ways to Sunday, full database, empty database, partial database, the hokey pokey database.......it doesn't matter.....it will eventually CRASH. Even if you manage to get all the files loaded in offline mode, when you plug in the controller, it adds another 200KB of memory and tips it over the edge....

You still keep talking about 60K.....some have had success with 50K, sometimes 60K on a MAC....but in the windows world....above those "thresholds" its seems......it crashes. I started seeing this 18 months ago....I'm pretty versed at how the problem is systemic and not file related......SERATO THEMSELVES have proven and see the issue in their dev side and say a fix is forthcoming, so why do you insist on saying there is no problem or telling us how lucky you've been, so the rest of us should just shut up and move along? Have you even read the thread from day one?

I have another 230K samples, tracks, video and loops that I can't use because I can't even get my audio files loaded.....so please, you may be "lucky" up to this point, many of us, as you can see, haven't been so lucky.

If your willing to come to my company location and work it all out for us on your dime, I welcome you along, but here and now.....it crashes and burns.....for you own edification go and find 120K files (from a friend I guess) and try to load em all up along side your "working" 50K library, then report back.

Until then, the problem is pretty well understood.

Truth.

I am not sure why DJ v1.2.0 crashes, but 3 gigs in a row now I have to stop the party and reboot. I use DDJ-SX, Macbook PRO 2.6 Ghz Core 2 Duo, w/8Gigs Ram, ext HD via Firewire 800.

I have the log files of the last crash, where can I send for analysis?

Dj Mark

Well... I dont know how else to prove it.
but here is a screen shot of my library.

instagram.com

I use a 2009 macbook pro 17, 8gb ram, 128gb SSD, 4TB External HD Firewire
from Starting Serato to full Library load it takes about 1 min 30mins +/-

I have never had SL, Itch or SDJ crash due to Library size. No Itunes, just Folders.
Yes it is slow searching for songs or scrolling though genre, A-Z sort, scrolling through folders, etc.. But no crash yet.

I did trim down on the Sub folders when Itch first came out.
My Ext HD consist of:
_serato_
_serato Backup_
Music

In my music folder:
Crates
-Sub Crates

I do not go beyond a 3rd level of sub crates. ie sub crates within a sub crates.
And yes I need to cut down on the library. :)

I stop reading right there (it has been said that MAC seems to run better than windows)......and your image say that it "sync'd" the files and built the subcrates based on the file structure not that they are actually loaded into the software and ready to run....do you have a screen shot that shows all 178K loaded into DJ or ITCH and connected to a controller working?

If it is, that is certainly an interesting data point.

I used to use that tool all the time, and that is when I started running into issues as my libraries grew.

I don't have the ability or desire to try and merge all my stuff into almost no folders so there is no way I can replicate the result.

How do you know what track is from what series?

Why would folder structure matter at all on your gig laptop/gig drive?

Nobody is suggesting the structure of your home archive should be changed, but surely it's worth doing on your gig machine if you're just using crates or iTunes anyway. Folders are irellevant there.

I started using the mbp late 2010. I owned a toshiba PC before and did not have an issue either. yes the mbp is better :)

Man that would take time for me to take pictures of each folder! LOL

I would not lie. Trust me, if i did have an issue I would post it on here and complain too.
Wish Serato has an ALL file count then I would show you.


Very basic file naming/mp3 tag convention.
My files names: song name-artist-genre
My mp3 tag: song name- artist -album -year - genre.
Once i load my new files into serato I use the comment Field to pick my song choices ie [HH hip hop [DH dance [T4 Top 40 [LD Line dance of course LOL.
I use the color code to let me know if its a Must play (Red) Filler (Green) Filler 2 (Yellow) I guess this can be use like Itunes star system.

I dont use album art <-- maybe could that be an issue?
I use the Album field: to show when i added the music.
I belong to a record pool so i sort weekly I would name my Album 1234 Dance 05-19-2013
at least this is hard coded.

Song Albums does not really matter to me.
My clients/request usually is for a song, not the album.

If I get the urge, I will try to video my folder structure. Nooo guarantee!

Well my work flow is a function of folder driven by series of tracks that I use. So here is a peep of how my workflow goes and has always been, even in vinyl:

www.kittmaster.com

I prefer not to have to dump it all into one folder. I have 7 backups all driven with a sync program I use to ensure I don't lose cue points or lose a track in transit......so there is no way to create my archives and sync my main rig by that suggestion, although I see the thought behind it.

i can tell you that it did help.
The first time Itch was available, I had crazy sub crates within sub crates.
I recall that the library load time was almost insane at 6-8 minutes on my PC Laptop.
I followed some advice to get rid of sub crates and it reduced it to half the time.
I took out more sub crates. And now with the macbookpro, 1 minute 30s is my fastest load time so far. I might purchase a Thunderbolt HD and see if it makes a difference.

as a quick test i just loaded 120k tracks (122,722 to be exact) in ssl and sdj on a macbook pro. i did this by duplicating my library folder and re-adding it back to itunes.

i'm confident that i can keep going so i'll generate 500k tracks and i'll load them in itunes, ssl and sdj. i just started the script to generate the mp3's. it'll be done by monday night.

i'll load the hokey pokey library on a desktop win and a macbook pro and let you know what i find. i'm confident that 500k will load in sdj without crashing on macbook pro. the win, we'll see.

I think you are right, most people will be on 64 bit these days. On a side note; this is interesting data: news.cnet.com

So you just adding files? Not making playlists in sub folders ect?

I can tell you now no way can i add that many files into serato and it work. All my files are clean good files all videos from good pools.

I have two harddrives.

Main hdd 750gb hybrid 7200rpm
Optobay hdd 750gb 7200rpm 2G.

I do have alot if crates and subcrates tho and this is prob where the work for RAM is all going.

Not using itunes at all.

I don't see how you computers are so magic?

Also are all your files analized after adding them?

i use itunes smart playlists and only a few crates. i'm not sure what a large number of crates/subcrates will do. all i did was create a new user account, duplicated my music library folder and added both folders to itunes. i let ssl/sdj read it. i did not analyze them as they are already analyzed. i also added both root folders to ssl/sdj w/out itunes.

the os is on an apple ssd and the music hd is a samsung spinpoint m8 1tb @ 5400 rpm in an owc optibay. the only thing on it is audio files. the macbook pro is a late 2011 17" with 16gb of ram.

the folder structure is like this:

/Volumes/Storage/Library/Artist/
/Volumes/Storage/Library/Artist/Album
/Volumes/Storage/Library/Record Pool/Year/Month
/Volumes/Storage/Library/Official Soundtrack/Soundtrack
/Volumes/Storage/Library/Various Artists/Compilation

i'm really curious now what the breaking point will be. i guess i'll know tonite.

YAY FINALY SUCESS!!!!

ok so heres what I did, having the same iTunes/large db related crash issues as you guys I set about my work around
1)
I had a db of 60k, mostly due to a hectic show schedual and some initial teething problems with ssl many were doubles, that due to my work load I never had time to sort through throrughly, I use iTunes to work with my music as its easy and easy to get new songs fast at gigs for a low price how ever (this is one of the reasons I had double ups too) I do not let iTunes manage any of my music in any way (it caused me to loose my db 2 hours befor a gig, so I switched to manual control), only link my music into it, my music lives on a self made partition of my main laptop hdd, soley for music

2)
I bought tune up - a handy lil program for deduping and organising music tracks (not a plug, just telling you what program I used)

3)
ran it for 5 days solid, finding missing file names etc and also removing duplicate songs, and deleatng them...........before this step I did a full back up of the entire partition onto an external hdd.

4)
db down to 36k

5)
today I opned up ssl, re analised all tracks - just to be sure

6)
after re analising, I went to the "all..." tab at the top of the crate box, hit select all and copied them to a crate named "full db" thus creating a folder with all files from all crates and all of iTunes (sort of like what you do when re creating a v2 db file)

7)
then I went up to set up and turned "load iTunes" off..........as this also turns the feature off in sdj - love it that ssl and sdj share that setup feature

8)
crossed fingers, toes, eyes, legs, nuts and fader

9)
opened sdj (without controller turned on)

NO CRASH........OOOOOOOOOOOO GETTING CLOSE

10)
turned on ddj-sx

waited........................NO CRASH

11)
woke up family with quick 10 min set, testing music load and a few features etc.............still no crash

then I turned off the controller

now im re analising the db in sdj, for beat grids etc

so far so good, all seams to work, im not loading from iTunes, but I have all my iTunes files in the "full db" folder, now sdj works, dosent crash (so far) and I still have my full db from ssl.....more or less

so im happy, I know its not perfect and its taken 6 and a half days but I got there in the end, hope some of you found/find this usefull

good luck getting yours sorted, oh also load time is under 20sec's so im pretty happy

thanks to all who posted and ofcorse the serato staff, took ideas from all of you to get mine to work

good luck guys!

p.s. this post is not ment to offend any one or show off, im just simply explaining what I did to get it to work successfully, windows 7 64bit, I7 quad, 8gb bla bla bla

thanks guys

Since you're working with a duplicated database (from what I read), please do me a favor as a test because I suspect you don't have much in the way of crates.

Create several generic crates
Under each of those crates, create several subcrates
Under those subcrates, add a few more subcrates.

(We want to do a solid test so the idea is to basically fill about 60-90 or so crates with music here based on everyone's experiences). No smart crates unless you want to add those too.

Start adding each and everyone those music tracks to each of their respective crates / subcrates.

If no crash, Close ITCH / SDJ.

Restart it.

Let me know what happens, how many crates / subcrates you created, library total size, _Serato_ directory size, etc.

Why in the blue hell are people still using Windows XP at a rate of 39% of Market Share...

Ok so you have low amount of playlists

Small file paths

And not reanalyzed files.

The databasev2 file will hold extra info on each track when analyzing (so as you did not do this your v2 file will be smaller) less RAM useage.

You do not have loads playlists and subplaylists so again low RAM useage.

The issue really lays with the databasev2 from all the user feedback and tests done so far. Like i said itunes big libraries can be loaded to all other dj software but not itch/sdj. In VDJ you can also load serato crates and still run fine. Itch/sdj you cant but can in ssl.

Other users have said the only way they can load there large libraries is to delete the databasev2 file before opening itch/sdj.

If you just dump all your files into the all crate analyze then shut sdj then delete databasev2 and then reopen it loads fine with very large amount of music.

Nyce can you try analyzing in sdj with those files and then see what resaults you have.

Think we are all helping to narrow this issue down.

While it sounds like a plan and nice to see some new development, to ask anyone to just chuck their organization and file naming out the window seems a bit off the deep end for me.

I like my tracks labeled as I showed in my image above, I like having everything organized by type/issue/label......in my work flow, there is no way to screw up the tracks and if my meta data gets trashed, I can restore it from the file name.......redundancy.....why should I have to toss all of that?

It has been mentioned several times, the MAC tends to do better......show me the same results on the windows side of things with crates and subcrates and it will be more a valid test....IMO.

Nice work to those have put the time in.....thank you for your efforts!

Regards,

It 100% is better on mac than windows end of! Is one of the reasons people went from pc to mac in itch.

My pc wont work at all with half the library on the mac.

Truth.

yeah thats crazy! still I know in the higher windows os's like ultimate, they run the windows xp 32bit architecture underneath the 64b win 7 system, for super mega compatibility, with everything, gotta love 7 tho, it realy works so well, 8 sucks, I hate the word "app"

Not true. It's virtualised in Virtual PC 2007 on Windows 7 Professional and higher; and only if you download the add-on.


Eh... I'd disagree. 8's got it's quirks but it's really NOT a bad operating system. Now Windows Me... there's an OS that sucks.

hahahaha cant argue there!

ok new problem has developed

ive been analising the db on serato dj, and all has been going well

until

"processing 30480 of 36966 files"

I get this message

serato dj
not enough storage is available to process the command.


what the hell does that mean, whole thing has now crashed it was working fine and has been all day while analysing, no problems at, all, then 7k from having sorted all files it crashes wtf!

You've got to be kidding right?.....A "new" problem? Really?

What do you think this whole thread is about........?

It's the same damn message as to what this entire thread is a about........my god, don't people pay any attention to anything anymore?

And oh.....WELCOME TO OUR WORLD....AND PROBLEMS......enjoy the ride.

Make sure you add crates containing this amount of tracks.

How can it be a corrupt file when he just said it was working fine before.

I have run into this problem with previously working files, they were corrupt.

Moved them into a 'bad files' folder and removed them from my collection.

Ran the analysis process again and everything was good.

+1

it did that to me too and I have no corrupt files,id tried it over on 3 laptops and everytime it stopped at 36000 with same message,so I uninstalled everthing renamed some folders picked top songs im gonna use under 36000 to analyze them in serato dj,then dragged others in virtual decks to analyze one at a time upon requests,until serato figures out what the hell to do

Just did a synchronize after adding some new tracks.

I currently have 81,000+ tracks right now.

and your crate and subcrate structure looks like..........?

Or are they just all dumped into one or two crates?

I had alot of problems with this guys. After extensive troubleshooting and research I have concluded...


- The database problems stems from limitations in the overall database structure of ssl, itch, sdj

- sdj and itch are more prone to limitations due to more on memory usage

- the best way to fix is to delete files from library as much as possible (can keep songs in folder on hd when, when needed add to library) and limit crates

- going to take a long time till this issue is corrected, if you don't like switch to traktor


I know this is not the answer u want to hear and I actually downloaded traktor demo and was ready to switch. At the end of day, I do alot of mobile gigs and it just doesn't pay for me to go through the process of learning a new program. Down the road, I would like to play with traktor to compare pros and cons, but for now it was easier to do what I said above and just keep it moving.

Just my two cents...

[Quote]

- the best way to fix is to delete files from library as much as possible (can keep songs in folder on hd when, when needed add to library) and limit crates

Just my two cents...
You know, that is not a bad idea!

I will have to try that. Must have files loaded on serato and the just in case files sitting in HD.

That work great for everyone EXCEPT those that use NS7 and V7's for their gigs.......<raises hands to both controller types>

Welcome to 18 months ago's answer to your research.

A library is meant to have your tracks there when you need them. It is unbelievable that we have to adjust or delte tracks to make abrand new program work. That is what R&D is for from Serato BEFORE the program is released. That to me is a BS easy way out Serato. I have posted a thread with a similar issue and was told the same thing. Not happy. Going to move onto another program.

To answer the previous question. I have many folders and sub-folders.

I use Alchemie Zinc to synchronize my database and it just works for me.

so... I guess no news is good news

some kind of fix/improvement must be imminent on this right?

three years worth of development reworking and refining code, figuring out new ways to enhance memory performance to make SDJ the best rock solid reliable professional DJ software it can be

If only. The problem will be fixed when Serato products can address more than 24-bits of space and actually address the full 32-bit the program is supposed to be able to in the first place.

Just fired up my brand new Pioneer DDJ SX. Start to load my library (60K songs), and it crashes. Open back up and decide I'll just import one folder (my Hip Hop), crashes. Whatever I seem to do it crashes.

Open up VDJ, works like a charm. What a shame.
Have an HP DV7 running windows 7 home premium edition
6GB Ram
i5 processor 2.83 ghz
500 GB HD

Have never had Traktor or Virtual DJ crash on me. I can't use this software which is one of the main reasons I bought the DDJ SX. I may take it back and continue using my Denon DN MC6000 which works fine with Traktor and VDJ. People laugh when I use VDJ but it works like a charm. This is my first experience with Serato and it is a complete joke and an utter disappointment.

Yikes this thing just wont go away and it doesn't get the attention it deserves....i have both Serato DJ (on Pioneer DDJ-SX) and Scratch Live on Rane 62 same issue they all cant handle large libraries......i echo the sentiments of all - please fix this now already? Delete files from library -AINT NOBODY GOT TIME FOR THAT!!! You want the truth Serato cant handle the the truth (large files!!) ..just frustrated and had to say something

I had that problem also download scratch live analyze all your songs after that Delete all files that have the corrupt lightning symbol, then delete all zero lenth files close SSL open itch if it still crashes, delete your _Serato_ folder in music folder open SDJ and VDJ or SDJ and Traktor And Just Drag your songs from the other program to your Decks in SDJ and enjoy. This workaround works for me.



Thats not entirely true SSL can hold a extremely large library. I loaded over a million tracks just for fun to took a long time to load them but it didn't crash this was on Mac may be different on pc . :)

This problem is getting more and more popular. They Need to fix this issue. There is going to be alot of DDJ-SX units to be resold.

That's fine, the DX users could use a new controller with Serato support.

I know I was upset also but I found this workaround that works for me.
It probably won't be fixed until 64 bit. or if SDJ stop loading the v2 database file to ram.

what was your work around?

put all my music in traktor and just drag and drop to Itch decks from Traktor

i see was going to try to drop it from ssl while DJ was open. since i dont have traktor

use vdj there is a home edition which is free. SSL won't work since SSL and SDJ and Itch use the same datadase.

ok will try that thanks

Curious, what database system are they using? It's clearly shared. Anyone know?

if the main problem is running out of memory isn't having another DJ app open potentially making things worse?

not if you have 4 gb of ram or more SDJ can't use more than 1.7 gb ram that is the main problem the more songs you have the more ram is eaten. and crash after 1.7 gb ram.

So this workaround using tractor or vdj ... Really 2 apps coz the one we love can't handle databases has anyone done this in the wild (club/wedding)...seems like a crash waiting to happen .if I have to drag songs between two DJ apps/screens then I am out with Serato.

I want to hear a response from Serato on when this gets fixed or maybe they don't care anymore ?

I have a MacBook Pro 2.4 ghz 8gb ram and still have the problem. Not sure if the the fact that the majority of Djs don't have this problem is necessarily true ... I for example have gone back and forth and almost giving up on asking for this... Also serato did confirm they know this is an issue so regardless of the minority of DJs it still needs to be fixed ...

No offense to the guys who have helped us out here, but Serato confirmed that they know of the Numark V7 fader start issue too...

This is a really strange issue now.

I had a problem on Windows but never had the problem on my Macbook Pro.

I'm almost ready to start a spreadsheet and have everyone all their OS, Machine Type, Amount of Tracks and Amount of Ram, CPU Type just to get a poll.

A few people have mentioned they are having problems with analyzing crashing as well, however there is a way to find out the song it crashed on in case you need to move it for troubleshooting purposes.

Nice idea but it still is about serato software getting to a max of 1.2gb-1.7gb then crashing.. On a mac it is alot harder to push serato to use that much ram. On windows its very easy.

Also things like SP-6 / Multi FX / Settings in setup all add to ram usage so still hard to narrow it down. Serato needs to work on letting there software use more of the computers available ram. That would solve alot of users issues.

No it is not! it's 32bit app on both Microsoft Windows and Apple Macintosh OSX.

Indeed. Both applications are 32-bit binaries on OS X as well.

There is a man on another forum area who said the only thing that changed between day 1 of it working, and day 2 of it crashing was a Firefox update.. LOL. The only correlation I could draw between the two is the use of plugin containers and XML rendering. Perhaps a common shared module is updated in the process?

Mozilla is present sporadically across OS's, and some of those OS's connect to the internet for automatic updates of the browser, while some have disabled internet access on their rigs so it would never update. Bizarre but interesting enough to curiously pursue.

Nobody will tell me what database they build v2 in? Anyone??

I don't use firefox......at all...still same old story crash....so that ain't it.

You don't need to use it, it just needs to be installed and updating when you connect to the internet for your Serato downloads, for example. But if someone can name the database system used, there are ways to force _some_ into a higher memory ceiling. If it could help people, it never hurts to try.

How would having firefox stop serato software from using more than 1.2-1.7gb RAM?

I have tried fresh windows install from oem disc and still same issue.

It really is just the software.

Like i have said you can use itunes and serato crates in VDJ totally fine.

i.e........it ISN'T INSTALLED on my machine.........like as in AT ALL.....as in ......does not exist.......so therefore, is NOT the issue (for me at least).

It's just open speculation, but a program can set database defaults that end up global and some modules installed by the OS end up shared. I wouldn't read much into it, it's just open talk and what one person experienced. I can't seem to get any information about the database used and i'm not going fishing for it right now.

I think we can all agree that Serato's database issues have nothing to do with whether or not the Firefox browser is present on a person's computer.

Yes, exactly.

if serato would not load the whole database to ram maybe it woulnt crash

If SSL/DJ/ITCH would allocate more than 24-bits of addressing space, maybe it wouldn't crash.

How would you selectively divy that up then? What happens when you click "all" to search?.....did you really think it through?

load it as needed like traktor do.

You read the word "ALL"........right?

That would in essence lead you right back to the issue at hand.

yeah Traktor can do all search without whole database loaded. so can VDJ.

On the contrary, I know for a fact that Virtual DJ does directory recursion and stores the location of each music file in a flat file database.

On top of that, it loads the ID3 tags into the browser each time you change directories which utterly decimates low performance machines with large directories / crates.

Frying pan -> Fire.

awesome idea, id definatly send my info in, start up a new thread and post a link, lets get it started!!

Sign me up. I am ready to join.

also id add to the spreadsheet if a successful work around was discovered

ill kick it off

PC
Make: ASUS
OS: win7 home premium 64-bit
CPU: i7 - 2630qm 2.00GHz (OC to 2.9GHz)
Cores: 4 + 8 threads
RAM: 8GB DDR3
Controller: DDJ-SX
DB Size: per fix 60k, post fix 37k
Successful Work Around: yes

anything I missed?

the problems only depends on:
amount of crates and subcates
amount of tracks in crates and sub crates
amount of tracks in all

mostly all the machine spec are not relevant.

So to load sdj all we need is the _Serato_ folder so could we not all send serato are _serato_ folder to see if it crashes on there windows and mac computers, they can also work on fixing the issue with having test large databases to work with. Surly it be helpfull to them to have all this info.

Excellent point, all you need is one file not accesible or compatible or simply too large to crash the software or the OS.

No i have never ever seen that issue in any serato software on windows or mac. UNLESS it was a dodgy file.

I dont think you are entitle to call my workaround untrue.
it is totally correct that there is a software issue, but since a narrowed down my corrupted files and folders and replaced them, I have been able tu run 4 different controllers on 4 different lap tops, all posibles combinations. (40 000 files)
If you have an specific scenario where you have absolute control is understandable. But that fact does not make untrue or useless the efforts of others users trying to make this work and share the knowledge if it works.
There is an issue with Serato + there is the human error + computer error.
I have been using Serato since ITCH 1.5 and I always found the issue for my specific scenario. I tried new V2 database even brand new libraries, and nothing worked until I found the corrupted files and deleted them or replaced them with new ones
good luck guys

you can Crash Serato DJ with a big database without having at least on single mp3 file.
Its just a bug that causes kind of RAM overflow

I give up. Spent way too much time this weekend trying various workarounds. I have the pro version of virtual dj and downloaded a very cool ddj sx skin. Hasn't crashed yet. Serato holla back at me when you get your act together. I've got too many career defining gigs coming up where I need access to my full collection and can't afford the embarrassment of crashing.

just spent the last 20mins reading here the cat fight with DJNitro & Papa Midnight plus guest ref Phatbob was somehow funny ,...... well anyway i dont clam to be a computer genius but i can find my way around most say i did have the same issue back in the day with my PC and in the end the only way around it seem to be when i got a MAC and am not saying this is the answer but it worked i dont think ive had a crash since and the only drop out was when my usb cable got pulled out by this dj unplugging his laptop..

I see my self as a professional DJ (I GET PAID GOOD BUCKS LOL) and if 1000 -1500euros on a MACPRO can save my set/gig and not having me look like a jack ass when the music stops bye windows... (right now i got 2 mac with a 3rd on the way) no turning back.

So, when you experience the spinning pinwheel of doom, who do you blame?

Serious question.

Why have a windows version if it doesn't work. Why do Traktor and VDJ work perfectly fine? Too many excuses are being made. Been rocking a PC just fine for many years and never had an issue until SDJ.

Maximum market penetration.

That said, the number of issues with the Windows binary are much to prevalent and have existed for far to long. I seriously doubt there is anything that is planned to be done about it.

Don't get me wrong, the OS X binary shares many of the same issues (i.e.: Database management, some minor bugs, etc.), but only on the Windows binary, for example, do you have a program that you can set to 60fps, and it barely run at 30fps (I point to the request which has been around for years to support GPU acceleration on the Windows side).

I'm also curious why the Windows binary requires Quicktime to do perform video or aac playback, when Windows has native support for both MPEG4 formats and Quicktime's horrid Windows port only introduces more problems.


So... you get a spinning pinwheel (en.wikipedia.org - discussions.apple.com), but it's working perfectly?

hello, i need an advise , am intend to buy a ddj-sx soon, since its a serato dj software , but how i will be able to broadcast a live show from a radio station or web broadcasting from this serato controller? as Tracktor and virtual dj have the option to broadcast and to configure, including a live voice animation from voice. but on serato i cant find it. Hope u can help me about this thanks.

Also i would like to know if Pioneer has already Fix the microphone hardware issues so that i dont get distorted probs. and would like to know if there is a way to record my live animation thru any records live. and want to add effect live via the ddj-sx as most of controller does .. such as ddj-s1, if this cant be done on ddj-sx then it will be useless to have an ddj-sx ! or wish it can be added in the software in the future updates.

There is no option within Serato itself. You will need to use a Shoutcast DSP or something similar and a line-level input.

Another user may be able to help you with the Pioneer question.

no mp3's ? you have a serious memory leak issue going on




I have the pro VDJ also, weird thing is I can have Serato running in the background analyzing files while djing with vdj on ns7 and no hickups chokes dropouts or anything.

I'm not sure you understand what a memory leak is.

Agreed.

Agreed, end of the day it's very simple, SDJ is a memory hog, Traktor uses less and I would assert is written better.

General advice here is to get over it and get used to it. Downsize or take whatever other memory gains that can be had by switching to macosx. I think this really sucks, never had to consider such a thing with the competition.

I wonder what % of the total user base of SSL/Itch/SDJ are on PC? It's a shame to be considered not 'pro' enough to warrant priority to rework/fix this.

...

negativity aside, imagine that Serato actually managed to put out a 64bit version before traktor did, that would be a massive feather in their cap, would totally cement the whole rock solid image regardless of platform. Seems like it would be a better use of resources than mucking around trying to make small memory gains on 32 bit.

Assuming that it is inordinately difficult to make small memory gains on windows

Thanks PapaMidnight :)

have not had that yet with serato itch or dj so let just say i get 1 or 2 times a year that sound better then total melt down every show with windows so in that case i welcome the pinwheel with open arms a coke and a smile....

as a radio announcer and dj (with a ddj js) maby I can help, first things first, are you actualy doing it from a studio ( consol, mics, nexgen or master control etc) for a real world radio station or are you in a home studio OR are you just wanting to upload it online in a stream?

if you tell me what your working with im sure I can answer your questions. easy as, been a technition, announcer, promo chump and just about everything else in the radio industry including the station booze hag hahaha

Not sure what you're aiming at, but I had beautiful smoothly scrolling waveforms on my Windows PC. Not so much on the (really, really powerful) Mac.

Please enlighten us how that is even possible, I've seen ITCH and DJ across 100+ machines, and yet to see smooth waveforms on any PC, in this case, MAC has always been silky smooth.

I'd really like to know.....seriously.

Know what? It just worked. No adjustments, tweaks or anything. That was with Scratch Live though.

Silky smooth? Are you saying that you're not getting any waveform stuttering at all on the Mac? It would be the first Mac I have seen. None of the Macs from my friends (mine included) have constant smooth waveforms.

My PC as well, XP 32 bit. Smooth as silk maxed frame rates with only 1gb of system ram. Has reasonable latency too. I just picked up a HP with larger screen and 4gb of ram. I don't expect it o behave any differently, but i'll repost back when I get it up and running.

The waveforms have always been choppy on a PC, and I have many killer i7s with GB Nvidia cards, the waveforms always suck ass on a PC, on my macbook pro that is dual core, circa 2008, ITCH and DJ are smooth as silk.

This may be the fault of my being rather overly broad in my statement as I did see relatively smooth waveforms on XP running on an Intel Core Duo with 2.5GB of RAM.

Would that have been what you were running at the time (you said "had" so I'm operating under the pretense that you were indicating past tense).

I ask because I have yet to see a single Vista or 7 machine (untested on 8) produce smooth waveforms.

On *your* PC's.. On this unit www.docs.sony.com I simply don't have the described issues.

Don't give the "your" bs....has the same issue across every PC I've and OTHERS have ever used. And good for you, guess your one of the lucky ones.

lol, you're giving the exact same "your" bs, that he is giving. I don't know why it hurts you so much to acknowledge and accept the fact that there are flawless Windows systems running SL/Itch/SDJ.

I have switched to Mac due to VSL not working properly on Windows. The waveforms were smooth as butter on my XP machine, single core machine, at the lowest possible buffer size! Hey, I still have an audio example of dropout free Scratch Live running at a moderate buffer size with a P3 at 333MHz - no joke ;)

It's a pain and gamble to get VSL working properly on Windows. I have tested SL on a few Win Vista/7 machines, but I can't recall whether the waveforms were smooth or not. All I remember was that video was... eeeeeeeh ;)

I only use Windows with SL+Itch+SDJ if I want to test some features and builds. Not for my gigs, because I play a lot of videos. (even when playing audio gigs, I use the video files)

They are few and far between, thanks for playing.

Still waiting for an answer from you.

When you say 'a' PC, you make a blanket statement. Semantics is important when there is an exception disproving a rule. Apple doesn't have this magical hardware platform that nobody else can touch. They are very VERY nice computers with well thought out peripheral systems. But that does not handicap a PC into this dark pit of inequity. Perhaps we're not the lucky ones, maybe you're just unlucky.

Hello PSYKO,

Thanks for your support, Well, i am IT Engineer and i dont work in radio, but am a DJ part time for myself, parties , friends etc, i got a lots of fan and i used to mix live at home via Virtual DJ, Tracktor which allow me to broadcast my live session via web radio or webcast, just sound not video. it was really awesome where fans around the world can listen to me live with a clear sound and also i do use to animate the live mix by voice and make dedication for my fans.

Now am interesting to buy this DDJ-SX as i heard its awesome ,and its a serato dj after all. i can see there is no broadasting option on serato dj as tracktor and VDJ have. so i would like to use serato as software when i get my ddj-sx and want to broadcast my live show via web as usual. thats y i would like to know how to do so.

i would like to know also if anyone can confirm me if the microphone issue distorted on ddj-sx has been solved or not yet as it was a hardware issues. also would like to know if i can add effects to voice or if serato dj will implement it in their software in the future updates.

Thanks

serato.com

Why don't you just see for yourself

PC:

www.kittmaster.com

MAC:

www.kittmaster.com

PC > Core 2 Duo with dedicated Nvidia graphics card

Macbook Pro Circa 2010 I believe.

So you're testing in offline player? How neat. :D

Are you playing live in the offline player? ... Just asking ;)

Plus, I am not sure what I should see from 30 seconds snippet. I have three different Macs... none of them have constant, fluid scrolling waveforms. I have never seen constant smooth waveforms on any Mac. But it might just be my bad karma - who knows.

The offline player and online mode with an NS6, NS7, V7 all look exactly the same as the offline mode. So that was the quickest way to get the videos to show you. Your attempt at humor while tougue in cheek doesn't sit well thinking that I'm just full of shit, so for your reference:

www.aaron-beachproductions.com

I'm sure when you compare it against my profile website, you'll have a better understanding.

As shown, the PC is a lot more choppy and hesitant as it draws the waveform across the screen then the MAC.

You say your running XP? Maybe that is why you say you have smoother waveforms, but I'm not sure why since I've stop using XP moons ago, the windows version used in the video is win7 x64, MAC 10.7.5.

Do realize that I have tried this with all seven computers at home (pc > core 2 duo or greater) and my two macbooks (circa 2008), it does it (choppy waveforms) on my work machines, my DJ peers, and others, all see the same behavior.

It has been said in other SERATO threads and if memory serves, acknowledged by Serato themselves, that windows does not use the GPU to render the GUI, where MAC does, and it is inherently smoother.

However, this is way off topic for this thread's issue.

We are going way off topic here now guys!!!

That is why I put it as my last line....back on topic.

"look the same"? You do realize that the CPU consumption (and most likely GPU consumption) is different between these modes.


Again, not sure what you're trying to say. Are you trying to credit yourself by showing that you have a PHD or something? If you need to mention that you studied this and that, and how successful you are, then you're actually discrediting your arguments, because ... is that all you can come up with? Your knowledge or experience in other fields have nothing to do with this matter.


Yes, for sure. Anyone can see this.


It could be that the GUI runs better in XP - as said before, I can not remember how well the W7/Vista machines were working (when it comes to the GUI).



Again, I am not sure what you're trying to tell me. You posted your experience, I posted mine. I never said Mac is worse than all Windows OR anything similar. You were the one who was not able to accept that there *are* Windows machines who run flawlessly. :)


I can remember the first part, but I can't remember that Serato said that the GUI (and I don't mean video preview/output windows) was being rendered on OSX using the GPU. Not saying that I don't trust your words, but I'd like to read the exact words of Serato, could you kindly post a link please?

However, this does not negate the fact, that the waveforms ran smoothly on my XP machines. Also this does not negate the fact that on none of the Mac machines (and these machines are standardized!) I own, or have seen from others, were able to scroll the waveforms completely stutter free. So in this aspect, the Windows XP machines I was using, were better than the Macs. *shrug*


Haha. That was clever. So after 220 words you suddenly realize, that you/we are going offtopic and you decided to do something against it by posting that last sentence? C'mon... if you had really cared, you would had posted something like:

"I could elaborate, but that would go off topic." Period.


Concerning the o.g. topic: Yes, for some reasons the Windows builds of SL (and other Serato products) can not deal with the same library sizes as the OSX builds. AFAI remember it had to do with SL pre-rendering the views for the crates. At some point (when scrolling through the crates!) Windows threw a generic error message (memory something?), while in fact SL was not even near to the maximum amount of RAM an 32Bit process can use/own.

Not for nothing, but I'd like to see that myself.


Indeed. But I'll also point out that both seem to have close to the same crash point, though the Windows binary seems to require more RAM from the jump (before crates are even loaded). Additionally, in comparison to ITCH, the amount of RAM that Scratch Live uses is miniscule (when devices are connected in both situations).

From Sam himself:

serato.com

And Support:

serato.com

Nik,

You got an issue, PM me, otherwise, you and I are done here.

Stick to the topic.

You decide for yourself, I decide for myself :)

It's generally OK to go off topic in the general discussion area, many agree. As long as you get back on track eventually as that is the purpose of the thread.

In both of those links, neither differentiate PC from MAC. What is gathered from that information is that the program itself will prioritize audio threading over graphical threading on either platform and via the CPU. Sam speculated that for the *particular* user with the Intel 3000 graphics that if that was integrated with the CPU it would explain the unstable wave guides as audio threading and video rendering would have been shared by the same chip, audio receiving thread priority. However on either platform with a separate GPU chip set his explanation is void.

I don't have the library bug, but I keep my library ultra trimmed and don't do open venue. So I have nothing to contribute to the specs spreadsheet. I will watch this thread.

His words:


I don't read this as SL or Itch use the GPU dedicated on OSX. I read this as "a GPU will generally offload the ... load". But maybe I am wrong.

well if that doesn't work try this one....

serato.com

You're linking to a thread were you post your assumptions about the GPU? Unless you have started to work for Serato secretly - no, that does not work either ;)

This...

... does not qualify as an acknowledgement either.

Third try please :)

Nik, you get off on acting like a jerk? Maybe its time to remove that avatar

Sigh. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. You asked whether this link works, I answered that question. Now if you cant stand the honest answer, why did you bother asking?

I asked specifically for a post from a Serato mod confirming that SL (or itch/sdj) are using a GPU on purpose. Then your second link os about a Post where YOU confirm the usage of the GPU. Lol.

So yes, if You are a Serato mod, then this link counts of course. And since we found out that you're a Serato employee feel free to remove that avatar, which You think is so special.

I can handle the heat, just not the douchbaggery....no need for it.

As an aside Kittmaster, that has nothing to do with GPU acceleration of the application, so much as it is about making basic DirectDraw calls.

Here's what's being described (though rather loosely) by the support staff.

The Intel Core i3 (like other Core i-series processor) is a processor which has the Northbridge and Southbridge integrated on-die, eliminating the need for a seperate Southbridge and Front Side Bus. On top of that, it eliminates the need for motherboards to integrate the Intel GPU's (i.e.: the 945GM's) onboard anymore as this task has been handed off to the processor which now also has a GPU onboard (this being, in this case, the Intel HD 3000).

While these can run separately from each other, Serato products on Windows are not GPU accelerated, meaning they do not require Direct3D or OpenGL acceleration, hence the card never acts for anything more than DirectDraw. The thing is, most DirectDraw calls are handled by the CPU itself through an API call.

To this point, Serato products are heavily CPU intensive applications that pound the absolute hell out of the USB bus, the audio bus, FSB (if applicable), and the CPU (and that's not counting RAM usage). Not only this, but Serato seeks to achieve as low latency as possible. The problem is that it has to share CPU cycles with DirectDraw calls. What Samuel S is describing is that as opposed to giving priority to DirectDraw calls, Serato is going to ALWAYS give absolute priority to the processing of audio - especially at lower latencies. So, for absolute simplicity in description, if Serato has 100 CPU cycles to choose from, requires 70-90 for Audio, and requires 10-30 for GUI drawing, the Audio's getting prioritized to 90 every single time and the GUI will draw when it can.

On Core i-series processors, this becomes an even greater problem because - in other to manage TDP and proper voltages - they have to throttle the CPU or on-die GPU which puts even further strain on the processor due to the need to perform the same CPU cycles at a significantly lower clock rate.

Samuel S is suggesting the user upgrade to a dedicated GPU to remove this problem, though I seriously doubt it would fix anything as Serato applications aren't GPU accelerated anyway, DirectDraw calls will STILL be made to the CPU first (even if they are passed off as part of the DirectX API to the GPU), and we'll be right back where we started.

Though, on the other hand, OS X accelerates the ENTIRE desktop to the GPU directly - though this point has been rendered moot with them also using Intel HD Series GPUs as a way to increase battery life and no longer packaging on NVIDIA Dedicated GPUs.

So Kittmaster is not wrong. Serato doesn't need to accelerate the GUI with the GPU on OS X because the Operating System does it for them at the Kernel level. Windows, on the other hand, does not.

From my understanding the most load happens when calculating the virtual decks and the waveforms. From my understanding this is done by CPU and is not offloaded to the GPU.

This is correct. But the actual drawing of it (render and display), I believe, is done by the GPU on OS X.

Granted, I could be wrong...

Hello PSYKO,

Thanks for your support, Well, i am IT Engineer and i dont work in radio, but am a DJ part time for myself, parties , friends etc, i got a lots of fan and i used to mix live at home via Virtual DJ, Tracktor which allow me to broadcast my live session via web radio or webcast, just sound not video. it was really awesome where fans around the world can listen to me live with a clear sound and also i do use to animate the live mix by voice and make dedication for my fans.

Now am interesting to buy this DDJ-SX as i heard its awesome ,and its a serato dj after all. i can see there is no broadasting option on serato dj as tracktor and VDJ have. so i would like to use serato as software when i get my ddj-sx and want to broadcast my live show via web as usual. thats y i would like to know how to do so.

i would like to know also if anyone can confirm me if the microphone issue distorted on ddj-sx has been solved or not yet as it was a hardware issues. also would like to know if i can add effects to voice or if serato dj will implement it in their software in the future updates.

Thanks


ok so this is a lil trickier than if you were doing it from a proper studio, that would be way easyer, as you just have to plug into one of the consols faders and as most shows stream online fro the studio kill 2 stones with one bird! (yes I ment to say it that way)

in your case as your just doing it from home the easist way to do it would be......

first off the ddj sx has 2 types of master output, xlr and rca (also a booth one 2)

so what I would do go and get an rca (plug(male)) to 3.5mm (plug(male)) and run it into another computers LINE IN jack, then find some kind of online streaming program (never used one so I wouldnt know where to start) and stream from the line in, if you want to hear the mixing yourself use the xlr or booth outputs and bingo your done.

as my home set up is I run my ddj sx through xlr to my speakers and also run rca to 3.5 plug to my (big) pc's line in, where I have audio editing/recording software, so I can record live mixes onto my pc and burn them to disk or send them to friends over the net or (and this will sound weird) broadcast LIVE over teamspeak (a gamers program to talk to team members, friends and other players) all I have to do is set the main input for sound/"mic" to line and its away, takes 5 min to set up and balance - one off - and then I can dj for my friends live and in real time through that (at one stage I was doing a show from Auckland that went to 5 other places in nz and to 3 in Australia), or record it etc. works fine for me and is realy easy to set up and use (and as its a spate pc don't run into any problems with cpu and ram usage!!!)

the only problem I could see is finding an online streaming/broadcast software or home radio set up, but they should be out there some where

to use an old scripture excerpt.........google is your friend

hope this helps, and sorry for the late reply, had to think on it a bit haha

good luck bro and let me know how you get on

.....it is possible if you can think of ways to do it im a gamer/dj, and your in it/dj so should be just a matter of looking and working the rig)