Were you referring to video mixing? Does Native Instruments offer this in any of their other software?

Shouldn't this be part of the DJ Discussion or Off-Topic discussion rather than ITCH Discussion, sorry not trying to be rude.

I think it is cool, but like you said , let's see what it is like with the hands.
I honestly like the DX layout better. S4 and it's software look cluttered.

+1

KLH,

Great post. Although this is the Itch forum I think this a great place to get feedback from this user community that has been able to get their hands on the hardware. Most of the reviews i've read (and most are very good) are from Traktor users. A answers and questions:

- Cluttered GUI: You can eliminate a ton of stuff from the GUI. Most of it is on there because no 1:1 controller exists for Traktor. If you check out how Craze uses it the GUI is very simple. No stacked Or colored waveforms. HUGE negative.

- the software does has EQ kill buttons, the hardware does not have dedicated buttons. "Technically you could map these"

- correct on the decks vs samplers/ you can switch mid-set if you needed to.

- Jogs. I've read they are have better response than the 300. I own a 300 and would love to hear from other 300 users what they think.

My biggest gripe are the waveforms not stacked and colored and having used Itch and TP, the beatgriding in Itch is FAR i mean FARRR superior.

There are so many DJ user groups thats almost impossible to please all parties with one software and one controller. I think "currently" the S4 meets the most amount of needs for controller DJ's. however it's not perfect.

This forum is a great place to have this discussion, as competition fuels innovation and perhaps where the S4 has shortfalls the next Itch controller can make up for it. The DX is a great example. I think it did not meet all the needs, and now Traktor has the S4 to fill that gap. Also the price is tough to beat.

I personally don't think the hardware is cluttered. An APC 40 has much more going on, the software --- well, that needs some work.

Again, it's hard to compare until hands on. Sure it will be nice though and some heavy competition for Serato and it's partners. Competition is a wonderful thing.

You're probably right, but I only stay in the ITCH section - because that's how I loop roll.

-KLH

LOL

hahaha, you gotta love them KLH posts.

Rob, great points. These are the same reasons why I am torn between Itch and the new S4. I’ve debated this with myself and have some thoughts I would like to get your comments on.

Bottom lIne: Itch is a close to two decks and a mixer as it gets and the waveforms and grids are FAR superior to what Traktor offers. However, if we are talking traditional DJing – since when did waveforms and beatgrids become traditional DJing. I would think two-three CDJ’s and DJM800 are a little closer to what most clubs rock and plenty of DJ’s use. If that’s the case then the S4 offers more closer set up to decks and a DJM: CDJ style jogs, better effects, etc. No stacked waveforms or grids just means you may have to beat match by ear when the grids are not correct.

Now having said that: I think part of the advancement I Djin and technology is to use Digital tools to enhance our sets and I think the wave forms and grids are an amazing tool and them alone are just as powerful (but in a different way) than a sampler and cool effects. So it’s a toss-up. But again, what does Serato have planned to rival the S4. I think combination of S4 style hardware, with better effects for Itch and the current waveform layout will be the set-up to go with. But how long will that take to arrive and not have the issues the current 1.7 is having with drop outs.

Don't generalize 1.7 dropouts. I have none on both my computers.

I just posted a compressive feature request: to upgrade the NS7 and NS7FX to a 4 deck control system by way of a toggle between decks A/C and B/D. I love the 45record/slipmat/motor platter inovation on the NS7 but want access to 4 decks like with tractor S4 and Xone:DX. This would I think make the NS7 more than competitive with the S4.

Link to NS7 4 deck request
serato.com

Take a look and tell me what you think :)

IMHO, the NS7 is a different type of controller that ISN'T threatened by the S4. However, the Xone:DX is direct competition. Unfortunately, it's the software side - Traktor Pro S4 versus ITCH 1.7 - where the real comparisons should be made.

As we all know now, Traktor Pro S4 adds sampling to Traktor Pro - which is a mature DJ app in its own right. When I compare its features to ITCH, there are two THREE key features which make it superior to ITCH 1.7:

* The playback sampler bank and loop recorder
* ZPlane's Elastique pitch-shifting engine (which makes going beyond +/- 10% workable)
* MIDI mapping tool - which opens up a WORLD of expansion

Don't misunderstand me, I love ITCH... I just want those key features.

-KLH

By traditional DJing I meant that there are certain functions in Serato's products (in this case itch) that allow me and others to work in the way that you can do music selection more effectively.

Playlists/crates (prep and and on the fly) match how we used to work when putting vinyl aside while mixing to respond to the room dynamics.

The waveforms are tantamount to being able to watch the grooves on the vinyl to tell you when a break is coming (although the colored waveforms give you even more info - which is a good forward evolution of the concept).

The ability to beatgrid with a variable tempo track keeps the groove of the song while also allowing you to stay in sync.

All those things you already know (sorry to be redundant), but I wanted to repost them because they make the point that if you don't have the above information provided for you, then you miss the fundamentals of workflow, selection, and music playback that DJs need to have at a minimum.

Traktor is great software, but they did disregard the above functionality in lieu of other feature sets. That's fine and I worked around those limitations within Traktor for a long time, but now that i have those fundamental workflow pieces back I don't want to give them up.

Traktor is also built with a different philosophy in mind as well - this is obvious. The attention to effects, MIDI controller customization, etc. = those are advanced features that do move the idea of what a DJ can be forward. I think there is great value in that - which is why I like them still. But when I'm trying to rock a crowd (or lets be honest, just keep up with them, lol) - I need fluid workflow options that allow me to work in the same way I've been working as a DJ for years (selection, playback, workflow).

Stringing tracks together one after the other has been around for decades. It works. People like it - DJs like it. That will always be a viable way to DJ - and Traktor hopes to upend that as "been there, done that", "let's make it possible to deconstruct a track", etc.

That's cool - but this is also dangerous in that it allows DJs who have little to no experience in fundamentals of what a DJ should be able to do (2 sources, a DJ mixer, rock it son) try to then do advanced mixing options and, well, sounding like crap. That's not the software's fault, but my point is that kids who want to be good DJs who only use traktor and have never done any other style of DJing miss out on the fundamentals of putting good sets together because they are too busy customizing their MIDI controller or making boffo effect combinations, etc.

TSP and Serato have similar philosophies for functionality at this point, but where Serato has the edge are functions that are mapped to being a good DJ with fundamental features that allow that to happen with an interface (at least in Itch) that is simplified for that that experience.

.02 and all that. :)

Agreed.

Bottom line: DJs want it all - great fundamentals and advanced features that would make NASA jealous.

ITCH (and SSL) have it down for fundamentals. ITCH v1.7 introduced the beat-grid, which is THE core piece that all other features build upon.

-KLH

Rob,

Very well put and that is definetly the argument. Itch's workflow for me makes much more sense, than TP's and with all the new added features I can honestly say that I do not plan on ever rocking a set similar to Shiftee's demo vids or have I have ever considered doing an Ean Golden hot cue juggle. I much prefer to play like you stated above. However I still think Itch is missing something (while providing the waveforms and grids, that TP doesn't)

My gripe started with the rumors of BPM and a Pioneer controller. My hopes were Itch would announce something was on the horizon, but failed to and now the S4 has taken the lime light.

I agree with KLH above, that DJ's want a little more than what 2 decks and mixer can provide, and although the S4 is providing perhaps more tools than necessary - we as Itch users (in genaral terms) want more as well. (i base this on the amount of feature request threads asking for effects, SP6 sampler, video, etc.)

KLH - I would've gotten the DX and waited for future releases if the jogs were better. The HID jogs on the S4 I think will satisfy a variety of DJ's.

What do we know?
The Bridge integration is coming to Itch in 2011. We don't know if a new controller will be introduced that can controll both softwares. We don't know if the effects in Itch will be improved or we will need to rely on ableton for better effects. Will I need to add a second controller to my current set up to use the Bridge Features. My point is we don't know much. We do know a new product is out that has sparked interest in many.

I'll give it a try. (and deeply miss Itch waveforms)

"My gripe started with the rumors of BPM and a Pioneer controller. My hopes were Itch would announce something was on the horizon, but failed to and now the S4 has taken the lime light."

Your post makes me think of a saying:

Expectations are nothing more than premeditated disappointments.

;)

Anyone know how the Denon DN-MC6000 compare to the S4?

Once the Bridge comes out for ITCH any 4 deck ITCH hardware with Launch Pad or another Ableton Live controller will in my opinion be more that competitive with Tractor pro and the S4

4 Deck Mixing
Wave Forms
Sampling and Looping (with the power of Ableton Live at your finger tips)

better than S4

PS: new products announcements can eventually happen even OUTSIDE trade shows... ;-)

played for a small group tonight.....used Itch and my VCI. Had some minor issues with 1.7 ---- but I'll be honest, the colored waveforms and grids are impossible to beat. Playing music is therapy for me out here and Itch is so much funner than button pushing on Traktor. Having second thoughts.

p.s. they could also eventually happen in 2012, and that's no fun!

I agree, Serato has a big lead with the waveforms..I love them and always have loved the simplicity of Itch and SSL. I think Itch is a bit more cpu intensive than say Traktor due to the large and colored waveforms, but not sure.
I wonder if Traktor will offer this one day too..

Anyway 1.7 is just the beginning and one big leap.

yes it is. I can run Traktor on a netbook with no issues. I've done a 4 hour set with zero problems. Itch lagged big time.

Traktor I highly doubt will ever have colored waveforms. That would be them admitting that Serato has had it right all along. Instead they will offer other functionalities.

I have the option to trade up here for my NS7FX and a pretty good trade to go in the S4 direction. I'm really attracted to it, but I'm really attracted to the bridge option and the possibilities that open up, and what 2.0 is going to bring for ITCH.

I really want both.....

if you can swing that it is good

I'll probably pick up an S4 as a backup. It'll probably be $300 used six months from now... You know, after the Bridge comes out and ITCH v2 is teased...

Of course, all bets are off if the limited edition NS12 comes out. F T W.

-KLH

well here's another thought KLH.

Lets say a sweet DX/S4 style controller comes out possibly made by Pionner.......Traktor Pro will soon get an update to match S4 sampler features. You could simple just re-map your controller and use it on both.

Only issue i can think of is support at the jogs on TP from 14 bit and having the same issues the 300 has with TP. This of course dependent on a sweet controller being released to support Itch 2.0 features.

Why do people compare always want to compare the "fundamentals of dj'n by saying serato is truer to the artform but tractor isn't... it is and can be... Just keep the dam Sync button off and you would have to home your skills just like with using serato... stop blaming trakor.... dj's are lazy because they choose to be!

I don’t think it has much to do with the sync button, but rather the style of playing. While Traktor can be used, and is great, for any style from Craze to Carl Cox, the mainstream use of Traktor differs than Itch. I take fundamental DJ’s as two decks and a mixer. Traktor (until the S4) doesn’t even support beyond 7-bit at the jogs so there is no controller out there to properly scratch with or to emulate jogs well. The VCI-300 and the NS7 by far are the two best out…with the S4 now following suit. Also they just implements 14 bit at the pitch faders a few updates ago. Two decks + a mixer = fundamental (in my opinion). Traktors’ biggest selling points are its effects and 4 decks, neither are really “fundamental” Djing….however, Traktor is far ahead of SSL or Itch in this category so that’s where the argument comes into play and now both companies are adding to their software to provide features the other one has. SSL now has some good effects, Itch has beatgrids, the S4 offers HID jogs, the sample decks vs. the Bridge. But having said all that two decks + a mixer function MUCH better on Itch than Traktor and that’s how many guys started playing and can easily relate. I think both tools are great.

Well Said!
(lets get the 4 deck control for itch going! +1 this software upgrade if you want to help let Serato know what we want :). I think it is pretty thorough read over it and let everyone know your opinion on it) -> serato.com <- ITCH 4 Deck Mixing Proposal

Very well said haze324 but I'm not speaking on features I'm speaking on fundamentals as well and while Traktor HID/Platter control leaves a little more to be desired I was speaking on guys complaining out how Trakor doesn't teach guys the "fundamentals" of mixing and thats a bunch of crap I use both and if you wish to disable most of the beat syncing/beat gridding/effects than you can and will have to rely on skills... Once Serato get's the beat matching down and Traktor lines up wave files side by side (and a few other things) it will be a fine line between the programs... People don't need to compare or complain about Traktor/Serato more than they need to compare or complain about SL/Itch. Once again... If people don't like Traktor over Itch or SL FINE just make music and be happy... I've heard some people were trying to get DMC to add SL as part of the gear and they are like NO... So I'm staying that to say this... To all the guys that's always talking about "DJ'in Fundamentals" There's always someone that's more of a Purist than you are!

Don't forget the visual mixers with serato... the majority of the newer DJ's I see are glued to their screen. So go back to basics... Use vinyl... but honestly the only ppl who care about this shit are the DJ's. Crowds care about MUSIC... How can you best assist the listeners is what ever your comfortable with.

Yep, that's the TRUTH right there.

-KLH

+1
..Controllers and software will not make the crowd move..it is all up to the music and the dj.

+1

The majority of vinyl "purists" I see are glued to their vinyl markers... Jusayin

I really like what I've seen from Native Instruments... I recently had the chance to "upgrade" to the VCI300 MKII for it's louder outputs and replaceable fader, but I was really on the fence as far as whether or not I should wait a few weeks for the S4. There are tons of features on that unit and Traktor that I would use... (The included effects in Traktor Pro alone were enough to make me a fan of NI.) But when it came down to what I loved about DJing, the VCI-300 had the basics down pretty well... I could mix and scratch... like two turntables and a mixer... AND it seemed a lot more portable than the S4...

But for people who don't care about portability, (and assuming that the build quality is on par) there's no reason why I personally wouldn't have gone with the S4... (I just didn't want to lug the S4 onto a plane wearing a backpack that makes me look like an astronaut.)

i remember when my turntables in a cofin were considered portable

@kraal Haha... They (along with milkcrates) were considered portable when I was younger... But now my back is telling me otherwise...

i agree i just think how when we started we never thought this would be possible

true story: I was playing at my boys pool party a few month back. Me and him used to DJ in highschool together (1995). And a mutual friend sees my VCI-300 and says "holy shit, that's all you need now a days. That little thing right there. I remember when you guys needed a mini van just to get a party". A few seconds later I scratch a song in, and the same guy comes back and says "hold on was that you...you can scratch on that thing too!"

Now to stay on the S4, i'm having a dandy of a time trying to find a good bookbag that thing fits in. i've found 2-3 of them, but still not 100% certain they're a good fit.

Try this mono bag on for size. I believe it is big enough to hold a Xone:4D

www.monocase.com

@kraal & thebeatworx I remember those days also... I also remember dj's hiring guys to carry around the crates....

i was one of those!, thats how i started lol.

There's a joke in there somewhere...

I remember not being able get my equipment home from high school parties because no one could fit my stuff INTO ONE CAR! I had to wait for the next day to pick up my stuff.

-KLH

It's about an inch short.

That's what she said... OH!!!

-KLH

lol.

Really? I'm having a hard time believing that the S4 is bigger than the Xone:4D. I gotta recheck those dimensions again - because if so, the S4 is a beastly size then.

Hadn't realized that.

DIMENSIONS
Depth: 32.2cm / 12.7''
Height: 5.2cm / 2''
Width: 50cm / 19.7''
Weight: 3.4kg / 7.5lbs


19.7 inches. for the S4
Xone 4D is just under 18 i believe.

I thought bigger was always better.

the Xone 4D says:

S4 you got me on length, but I've got GIRTH!!!!

depends on what you like :)

Ummm... wow.

Watchwww.youtube.com

-KLH

Wow... it's ugly

to give it the benifit of doubt (see that that was first time users) I will say it is on par with the vci-300 . I did see a few miss communications happening on the scatches (latancy issues) so now i guess it is a feature race ... until traktor get it's on ns7

That shit is pretty pimp.
Jogs - I think the size of the jogs on the 300 are bigger and therefore more comfortable, but the placement of the cross fader is probably better where it's on the S4. Latency, it might be close. The reviews i've read are the S4 has better response, but this was from S4 issues.

Aside from the software specifics (GUI, Colors, etc.) this has raised the bar for the next wave of 4 channel midi controllers.

I would love to see something like this for Itch with just a few added features.

^ I meant to say S4 traktor users not issues.

i am basing the 'latancy issues' on the fact that a few of the scratches are off sound wise where as the motions seemed correct

yeah definitely not a tunrtablist's dream but i'd say it does a very good job and not a bad price 900 bucks for all the features included.

thats why i say it is now a feature war cause i beleive the vci-300 may handle better and the ns7 definatly does

Come on, those jogs are laughably small, placed in the wrong position (buttons were given priority), and nowhere as responsive as VCI-300 platters, not to mention Numark stuff. Even the guys in this video look like they're playing on a Fisher-Price toy, reminding me those Top Gear videos where small city cars are drove by F1 pilots.

Now, if you think the (momentary) features advantage of the S4 over ITCH gear will take you to the next DJ level, just buy it and have fun. But not pretend this unit comes nowhere close to a VCI-300 for scratching: this is simply not the case.

*driven

+1

Are you saying they are not as responsive from your experience using them or from what you saw here? Because although I haven't looked around all that much but the few vids I've seen of guys scratching in the VCI are fairly the same on both ends.

The platter response time has actually gotten great reviews as well as the crossfader.

Yep. I ordered it. It'll be fun to have something new to mess around with. I played a halloween party last night on my VCI-300 and Itch and had a blast. 1.7.1 was solid not a single pop. I have faith in Itch and hope they can compete here soon, not just feature wise but with a solid 4 channel controller with just as good platter control. When that day comes then I'll decide which route to stick with.

I try to remain objective. Lots of folks here don't. You think it looks like a toy, well I'm sure you've heard the same about the NS7. Come on now. When I get mine here in a few weeks I'll try to record a demo of both the VCI and the 300 side by side platter responses.

From the video, it's clear the platter response is not on the same league.

And the jogs definitely look funny, it's hard to deny it. It's not that NI is dumb, only they gave priority to different things.

But don't you hear that on some vids it sounds off? And I don't mean the audio to visual delay, just listen to the audio and it doesn't sound right. But maybe it's just that the DJ's need some time to accommodate.

I agree it looks funny. Yes partly because NI and Traktor cater more towards EDM DJ's, the other part is because we are not used to see it set up that way. The crossfader and the jogs on the 300 are pretty cramped together incomparrison to a mixer and two turntables. This allows for more space.

Either way, I'll give it a shot -- if for nothing else, something to keep me entertained for a while till Itch makes a move. We all have different tastes....I think it looks pretty freakin sweet.

Nik,

Im at work and didn't get to see the full video. I saw some dudes messin around with a new piece of gear and showing off some scratches. Some better than others, but I thought it was a good demo of what the S4 is capable of. I don't the intent of the S4 was for it to be a competitor to the NS7, but rather and all in one 4 channel unit, with effects and a sampler that can ALSO be used to scratch on. I don't think that was the number one goal.

Yeah, who knows how long those guys had it, if they changed the latency on it, etc. it looked like guys goofing around and having fun with new gear. We've all done it.

Maybe I'm wrong but this rather looks like a viral video from NI intentionally left rough.

It's still is, agreed.


Good points.

even looking at the 'shiftee' video his scratching is basic......

but besides that the key point of this thing is the sampler which is awesome ( hint hint serato)

until I seen this video I didnt care for the S4 but now for me, this is a Itch killer. I like scratching and for the types of scratching I do at the club this will work just fine. I mean those are some pretty dope scratches for a controller. the loops, effects, sampler, 4 decks all with one controller. was saving for new vci but now, they can keep it.

'ITCH SUCKS"

so why you care about writing on ITCH forum?

because I am a vci owner, if Serato dont know how I really feel about Itch they will never change. So if you are 100% happy with Itch and the direction its going thats cool and if you express it thats cool too. I am expressing that "Itch Sucks" and that cool for me.

link to your threads where you are explicit why it sucks. That way they can better understand your criticisms and fix it.

That would seem helpful rather than make a blanket statement, IMO.

LOL you help my expression. thanks for the "ITCH SUCKS" QUOTE

YOU MY FRIEND ARE RIGHT!

lol

Dj fitty sorry you feel this way about itch, don't think it's for u, but honestly your expression doesn't really matter to us who really enjoy every bit of itch...On that note I hope u enjoy your s4, hopefully you will start posting good things about the S4 on traktor forums.

seriously if itch sucks you need to sell your vci-300 i mean if i own anything that sucks i would sell it and abandon the company

@wadup thanks bro, I sure will. I use to gig with Traktor 6 nights a week and get compliments on a good job and I did a lot of complaining on their forum. Now that I use Itch 6 nights a week I get compliments on doing a good job and I do a lot of complaining on this forum. @ kraal I see you put yo cheerleading uniform on again! AND you always screaming Sell is stale now. " ITCH SUCKS" and I hope they change this one to one mapping bull. But guess what? I can dj with about anything and right now its Itch and right now this is the place I will complain. So dont be so sensitive about how I feel about using something that I think Sucks,

i was just stating if it sucks sell it... i did not cheerlead anything but enjoy tossing jabs at my ( say what you want just spell my name right)--- if you actually look at my post even the one on this thread you will see i also make suggestions for ITCH's improvement but none the less you coose to call me names

@ kraal I am not wanting to be offensive, just having fun with the cheerleading stuff. but if you think its name calling then I will stop. Itch does what it does well. I havent had too many issues with it. I just want more and every time we want more its gonna mean hardware. This is a software based dj tool being held back feature wise by Serato making these 1 to 1 requirements. Hell Itch could have everything we want right now but waiting on the hardware company to make, develop and test is what making ITCH SUCK. I would rather pay for major update downloads. but I quess thats just me.

@ Dj Fitty

you've obviously made a wrong buying decision

other people in this forum have made the right one, and they're more than happy with ITCH

the logical conclusion is that ITCH doesn't suck "per se", but sucks for your needs.

Spend your time making a better homework and less ranting on Internet forums, you'll save money and you'll not pollute this public space with pointless negativity.

check my new thread
www.serato.com

@ djceria most post are people that are having problems or not satisfied. and maybe I sure did purchase wrong. Its the most expensive dj software package out feature wise and guess what? You gotta keep spending and spending and spending even before your hardware wears down.

some people cannot tell an elephant in front of their faces let alone try to understand other people. Its much easier to bash the person and not their ideas. cowards.

@ djceria it seems you have a problems with a lot a post. I checked, you have a few telling people to leave the forum. do you troll for this stuff?

Hey DJFitty, IIRC, we were both on the Xponent a while back trying to get a controller that had platter performance that was good enough to be similar to a TT, device expandability, AND other features that would allow us to grow (like sampling, video, "warping").

About 18 months ago, ITCH offered performance that was unmatched by other controllers. Since most of us migrated from mature DJ Apps like SSL, TP/TSP, Torq, we thought that we wouldn't give up so much to get great platter performance. Since then, most of us have hung onto ITCH hoping for more features in ITCH... and it's happened: Effects, beat-gridding, warping have been introduced... and we love it.

WE JUST WANT MORE. When a competitor with a known feature-rich product gets similar platter performance (BIG assumption here), we now disregard that as a killer-feature and then wonder what IS keeping us on ITCH.

DJ Fitty is just voicing his frustration. Will it change anything for the Serato devs? No. Is it productive? I think so, because it validates feelings that a LOT of us have (myself included). The only question is "Does the S4 offer enough to warrant replacing my ITCH investment?" It's a great question.

-KLH

@ KLH +1! I am going stop using the 'ITCH SUCKS". because performance wise I have no problems. Its just I want more and it aint happening and that SUCKS.

To add I want more with out having to buy hardware every time and that SUCKS









ks

it was Numark that lured us in IMHO!

serato had the exclusive arrangement to have the NS7 work with their brand name because it was a smart move for numark to use the serato brand to boost their own name, specially in the US where its full of serato fanboys.

now when u can break the whole "serato is king" ideology and you become open to other apps to DJ with then you stop to think "wait a minute"...

the S$4 is a beast! I dont care how many times u try to be condescending with people in this forum the S4 is what it is and u cerla have raised a million arguments that get debunked all the time to justify all kinds of crazy ideas.

u keep drinking ur hatetorade while we real people with real feeling and real opinions move these business foward.

Write it in english please.

LOL, sorry doing my best

@ dj ask

I'm not writing on NI forums about how much I dislike Traktor. And what "crazy ideas" are u refering to?

shut up cerla. u should be one to learn english first.

see this is exactly what I mean. someone brings something up that bothers them and all you can do is talk about their grammar. laughing out loud at YOU!

of course YOU ARE NOT Cerla! but other people are. those people are moving the business forward. NOT YOU. according to your own statement.

I'm not shutting up for sure. And check your English, too.

im still laughing at you ;)

btw smart ass. if you want to really understand why it is good for people to rant where they want you can watch this.

serato.com

Ask yourself what have you done to move ITCH forward, before spraying shit on others.

so ceria, you would not change anything about Itch?

just paid a visit to www.djcerla.com it seems you love your ns7 and effects unit

more than u know ;)

but thats for me to know and for u to wish ;)

ceria you did metion Itch one time, LOL "In my 4th NS7 video, the NSFX tremolo effect is applied to cut a looped scratch sound on 1/16th and 1/32th notes, automating what is normally achieved via crossfader movements. A slight echo effect is also applied to the scratch sounds. The base song is also cut and re-built using cue points. The bass knob has been changed to a Superfilter knob via the "Filter Junkie" Eastern Egg. Made with a Numark NS7+NSFX effects module, on a 2.4 GHz Apple MacBook Pro."

I think you would use the NS7 with other software if you got the same platter performance, right?

good point fitty, I too wish to know that.

And true love is, that's why this one is the ONLY forum or site I write in. I have some pending features requests, though, while others have already been implemented (i.e. Instant start was my request).

And yes ai have a Traktor license but I've never "felt" this software. I'm a happy ITCH camper, it seems tailored on my mixing style.

@djceria ch ch ch ch ch ch chaaaaa ch ch ch ch c cc c chaaa. I cant get it out my mind. all that power and only one scratch. ceria can you use your left hand on the crossfader or are you stuck on one side? Its kinda of funny like my writing!

ch ch ch ch ch chaaaaaa

i've started scratching on the NS7, and yes I'm stuck on one side.

cerla why when I say move the "business foward" u read "move itch foward" ?

if it is your choice to be a "true" lover like u wish to be called for being so loyal to just serato then that is your choice but dont go telling people to leave the forums.. if they rant here is because they perhaps do wish to use serato but just think that it can be better no?

this is not the first time I see you miss read what people say, and that is a clear symptom of someone who is very hard at adapting. I could care less than posting this to you really. In the end you will jump ship like everyone else, or sink and die with the ship. (given your unconditional love"...

@djceria you put on a nice show! how many people bout 3,000

fitty = was upset at lack of features
cerla = told him to "then get rid of itch"

fitty = said why? I am an itch user and wish to voice myself too!
cerla = said your english sucks

fitty = found that cerla sucks at scratching
cerla = admits it

its a draw ROFL!

LOL

KLH-- man, very well put brother.

The rest of you ---- well it's all pretty funny to read!!!!

But honestly Itch does what it does well. S4 just dropped something tight on the DJ scene. No one said it was supposed to scratch like an NS7, but it does allow for scratching along with everything else.

I know the Serato team reads this forum. Why do they not jump on here and take advantage of so many current Itch users asking for more, and wanting more from their software. Instead they just freaking ignore us. And let us chase each others tales.

Say what you want about NI. But the teased a product, demo'd hit, put out a release date and met it. And their forum is manned 24/7 right now with mods and staff helping their new S4 customers. This place....

:::cricket:::
:::cricket:::



^
Fitty - LOL!!!!!

Do you mean the Mexico City pics? It was about 4.000 people.

@ dj ask I've already jumped ship, from Traktor. My scratch sucks of course, or not, according to the vast majority of youtube comments.

lol I want to think im a fair man. I dont care really if your scratching is best good or bad but I wish that comments like "then sell it" would not be brought it because they are so empty and unhelpful.

I think KLH is on point too.

Empty and unhelpful just like "ITCH sucks", which is far from the truth.

true.

but then again. u love itch unconditionally no matter if it's features are outdated or not so...

dj ask... I love ITCH for the features it has now. If I need a sampler, I'll bring my keyboard and my 2nd Macbook like in this setup www.facebook.com I don't need video, and when I need better FX I simply use the DJM800 fantastic effects sections (I'm on the V7s now and a DJM800 is in my technical rider).

for my needs, ITCH is a fantastic tool, the best I've ever used. It doesn't "suck" at all.

LOL you love the hardware.

listen, I was on Final Scratch in 2004, I've then updated Traktor at every release. I love the controllers (also the VCI-300), AND the software. The waveforms, alone, make a difference AFAIK.

Dj ask. I said sell it. Not to be rude but just a response to "itch sucks". See no point in owning anything that sucks. Nothing more nothing less

Come on guys... its not the first time djcerla has proven to be a fanboy ;)

I agree that it is good to let serato know what u think of their products, u guys just need to make sure that they understany *why* you think the way you do.

"Sell it" is a lame argument. (Using this statement generigcally just shows your ignorance.) Its far more important to understand why someone is unhappy and whether this is justified or not.

My 2 cents.

ceria the waveform is nice and setting and erasing cues and loops on the fly is the shit! I was a Traktor user also and it took few steps to make happen on a controller when I used it. You see the same stuff I use to grip about on Traktor forum has been turned into a product that addressed most of my grips. I had tons of grips on the Torq forum lets see what happens there. Now my grips are with Itch cause thats what I work with and hopefully they will change. but when a company dont think there shit stinks cause of fanboys there is no need to change anything are respond because of the the fanboys handling everything

Dj Fitty --- would you be interested in knowing what is in Itch 2.0? When Serato thinks they plan on releasing it? And maybe hear more about the 4 channel controller from Numark?

Do you think that if you knew this stuff and it was all the things missing from Itch - do you think you would stick around and wait instead of looking at getting an S4?



....because I would like to know! But they don't tell me shit around here :)

@haze324 I would like to know and that would make a difference.

Me too man.

Hold on --- let me see what the Serato Mod's have posted on this thread to instil faith in their user community. Oh yeah, nothing. They haven't told us anything.

the youtube vids of the S4 keep coming up and so far im very impressed but at least from my point of view looks like its not going to be a small learning curve.

There's quite a lot of stuff going on at the same time with the S4, for my music genre and style ITCH controllers definitely suit me better but you guys can't blindly deny that the S4 is a beast for the EDM scene, i definitely see a bright future for this controller, specially for the features vs retail price.

A positive thing might be a drop on some of the ITCH controller's price.

notice my only complaint is the scratching i thing there are a lot of good things going on there too

so how much was posted on NI website before the s4 was announced and released?

IMOP The Xone DX is better.. a solid, uncluttered, controller, with sound that pumps.

Im a fan of touch sensitve jogs. That was a deal breaker for me with the DX. I agree though the layout of the DX is nice. If it weren't for the jogs I would've gotten one a long time ago.

agree on the jogs --- seems to me the itch controllers all have something the other one needs --- still not one perfect itch controller

^^
+100

If numark delivers something DX, S4, etc. type with the same soundcard of the NS7, and great platter control like the NS7 but with jogs, and similar build quality, that thing could end up pretty dame sweet. The second part will be how it interfaces with any added features Itch may have planned.

as long as the jogs are same size as the vci-300 or bigger

Dually agreed. I've owned all kinds... Started on Technics vinyl, bought CDJ's in addition because they WERE the "standard" and I sold them within 6 months of owning them due to the feel.

I heard the S4 has magnets... I'm not hating on the S4... hell... I'll probably buy one anyway, but the NS7 is really something special right now in the industry.

^ I agree it is --- if your style is to play on two turntables and a 2 channel mixer.
(i have an NS7, so I know what you mean)

But, alot of folks don't play on that though.

Bought the S4 yesterday, pretty impressed so far... i48.photobucket.com

looks great

Konix....I respect your input.

Can you give us a quick review?

How do you rate the jogs. Too small? Can you compare them to the VCI-300?

I think from the vids and pics the rest of the controller is on par with the quality from the X1. How are you diggin the software features.

Thanks for posting that pic Konix. Hmmm. It's actually bigger then I imagined.

not really, hmm it surprised me its almost the same height as the kontrol X1.

actually the base is the same hight as the X1 with the knobs, but the S4 with knobs and jogs, is about 2 inches taller.

This is from a post on DJTT where one of the mods measured it. It's light, just very wide. I'm having a really hard time finding a good bag to fit it in.

Just thought some of you might be interested on some DEMOs of the S4 by EAN Golden:

Watchwww.youtube.com
Watchwww.youtube.com

Seems pretty cool, but for my style of djing it doesn't match... Seems like all he was doing was pressing buttons.

Having the X1 seems redundant. Do you agree?

I'm interested to know if the jogs are as high-performance as the VCI-300's jogs. Also from what I can see from videos, the sound quality of the scratching sounds from TPS4 seems to be subpar when compared to ITCH.

-KLH

Perhaps, but it'd be great to augment a DJing session with a performance like that. This is what I've envisioned for the ITCH hardware if/when a multi-cell sampler feature becomes available.

-KLH

yeah doesnt match my style and genre either but this is just an amazing tool for pure controllerism and electronic scene for sure.

i dont even use all the features of ITCH, i wouldnt even know where to start with that S4, its just sooo much stuff available at your hands that i'd be looking at it like wtf what should i do with this lol.

the on the fly loop recorder seems interesting, the sample banks, and the rotary knob loop selection was a smart choice.

Cool stuff indeed.

But complicated. And way too much clutter for my taste, an obvious tradeoff for the features set.

the photos look better than the vids.... even tho it is alot of stuff going on i see i would like the options even if you dont use it all the time it still would be a nice 'i have this if i want it' jog wheel look bigger than i thought

judging by the the first video I see you can customize the mapping of the controller because he is using the left jog to control some of the effects.

of course you can this thing was invented by him :)

foot pedal--- so now the difference is it seems this is more of a performance controller and ITCH controllers are more standard. maybe the bridge will change that

no, he just had input into some of the features/functionality and played as a consultant to the dev process. It was invented by NI's team.

i was exaggeration thus the smile :)

ah, got it. :P

well yeah of course it can be customized, This is not locked to 1:1 mapping, this is still traktor and you can do whatever you want with the mapping.

i should be able to get my hands on a demo unit in the next few weeks to try out.... not at home but at my local guitar center

same here. Probably more stuff than I would need or even want. Too much and I get confused. I would never use the jogs for effects (and I used to rock a VCI-100).

There are some trade offs with the customized mappings though. The best way to customize the mapping is to ADD to the current one. This way you keep all the functionality. One of them being the LED display of loop size only works with the native map. So the foot pedal is just a shift button for mapping that runs along side of the native one.

For me that's all too much. I want some good effects (and I don't need 25 of them). 4 decks, or 2 and some samplers, tight jog response (enough to do some mid-level scratches), good sound card, good led display, good tactile feel, etc. Nothing fancy. Traktor is still missing elastic beatgrids though.

Also the NI forum has had few posts already with folks running entry level Dell's and getting audio drops. So while us Mac boys are good to go - NI will have some bugs to iron out.

For a controller --- this thing really did just raise the bar, and 899.00 man thats gonna be a tough one to beat.

ps. didn't really dig Ean's vids. I've seen better ones from him. Guess thats just not my style. I enjoyed Shiftee's a bit more...they were simpler :)

so here is the djtechtools review, pretty on point i'd say and very objective. you'd think it would be partialized since ean was one of the designers but they already have shown some of its flaws.

i gotta be honest after reading it i feel i need to go to college to get schooled on this controller :$.

www.djtechtools.com

Traktor is on saaaaalllleee..... until the 31st. Ouch.

I want it all...

Wait.... are they including the top tier product with the S4? Looks like it...

what do you mean their top tier product. The software you mean?

If the X4 were 50% off, I would already have it. At $900, I have to think about it.

-KLH

LMAO

traktor is on sale cause they are discontinuing it for a new version---

not necessarily and yes the new traktor will have the S4 like sampler. however they are discounting the whole thing including the audio card. sl vs traktor sl can compete. itch vs traktor.. sorry no competition from itch yet.

u will ONLY have to pay for the upgrade to the new version so it is still a bargain

When it comes to virgins it's pretty cool...

You can keep your "first timers," one great night = 6months of stalking by them. (AHEM) I think that we should go back on topic.

I hope that the S4 has a minor bug so that some idiot genius sells it and I can pick one up for $500 used - you know, Xponent prices.

-KLH

^ The NS7FX is my main unit, but I should have a backup, don't 'cha think?

-KLH

Isn't itch already direct competition for Traktor? They went first with the NS7, VCI-300 and DX. Traktor fired back with the S4.

Giving hardware manufacturers another solid reason to choose ITCH over Traktor for their new controllers ;-) as nobody in his right mind would buy a non-NI Traktor controller, after the S4.

SOOOOOO NOW THAT THE S4 CAME OUT AND POOPED ON THE XONE:DX, ARE WE EXPECTING THE NI VERSION OF THE N7S?? who knows, they were working on this controller for a couple of years they might be working on some motorized platters controller ever since the ns7 came out.

I dunno. The S4 just has the newness halo right now. I want to know about the longer-term issues now: stability, support, and sound-quality. Those are actually more important than the "wow" factor that seems to be happening now.

-KLH

The NS7 did not come out of the blue. It came after years of Numark know-how about turntables. Also, vinyl emulation is a niche, the vast majority of DJs don't care. So the answer is a solid NO.

^ icald.

An S2 is MUCH MORE likely.

the S4 has traktors stability behind it, the support is resounding around forums, and the sound quality is standard of all the NI products which is also great.

So as it stands right now, here's my take on the high-performance controller world:

ITCH Advantages:
* NS7 and V7 have superior platters
* V7 can be used with any mixer
* Software updates are free
* Bridge is coming

ITCH Disadvantages:
* No sampler
* Xone: DX has inferior jogs to the S4
* Effects aren't as easy to manipulate or are limited in parameters
* No MIDI mapping function

Traktor S4 Advantages
* S4 has touch sensitive jog dials
* Supports MIDI Mapping
* Has two samplers
* Has excellent effects
* Less expensive than NS7, V7 setup, and Xone: DX

Traktor S4 Disadvantages:
* New, quality/stability isn't time tested
* Has four decks OR two 5-cell samplers
* UI and S4 are BOTH cluttered
* Software updates cost MONEY
* Pene doesn't like Native Instruments


Well, since Traktor S4 has 5 disadvantages, I declare ITCH the winner... for now.

-KLH

hahaha hahahaha

wait if u look at "your" breakdown the S4 has also 5 ADVANTAGES against Itch's 4 ;)

ITCH: drunk-friendly

don't forget the software advantages vs. disadvantages as well since you can't really decouple the two.

In this area, Itch wins because of the variable beatgrids, colored waveforms, and better playlist management.

even though Traktor s4 has a sampler and better effects.

Unless you run a couple of V7s on a DJM2000 of course :-)

and you can also plug in a much more versatile soft sampler with a full fledged 2 octave keyboard for a massive WOW effect on your audience :-)

So hard to beat the V7 guys!

true. I have two of them. :)

Are you sure about this? DJtechtools review states the following:

Traktor Pro S4’s decks A and B are always set as Track Decks, whereas decks C and D can be each configured as a Track Deck, Sample Deck or Live Input to play audio from the two analog inputs. You can for instance have three Track Decks and one Sample Deck, or two Track Decks and two Live Inputs, etc.

Can you use both at the same time? I was thinking about going this route.

i still say the battle comes down to features... right not traktor is winning.
the ITCH controllers are winning NUMARK line and vci-300 -- xone i personally dont like the jogs and the denon line is a swing and a miss

so what will itch respond with?

A more precise way of saying this is switchable decks 3 and 4 with either a virtual deck, sampler, or external input.

-KLH

People, people and more people! lol1

I just got the S4! I tell ya ! I went to Guitar Center here in Boston to get some cables Saturday October 30th. And I just decided to ask about the S4! Voala! they had four of them in the basement, one of the salesmen told me they were cleared to sell them since the 29th!

I gotta tell ya! this controller is sick! whoever said you cannot scratch with this thing is wrong! The feel of the jog wheel is incredible, much better than the vci 300, although they are smaller! I don't know how the pulled it off, but the jog feels solid and has the right amount of resistance! Unit is very light and portable. You can have different views of the software on the screen! One thing I want Serato to implement in Itch is that when you hit the browse bottom on the S4, the library window gets bigger and when you load the song, it goes back to normal1

The effects are sick and the sampler, ergonomics is really good! some people were complaining about the jog wheel being on the far end of the unit, I didn't feel the need to have them closer even when I was into heavy scratching! The way the bottoms are laid out is very intuitive!

I'm keeping my VCI 300 because I want to have the best of both worlds, I plan to use them both for different gigs and I will continue to report to you! To tell you the truth I'm liking this new toy a lot!

Forgot to mention that I only paid $900 for all of this functionality! That's Gansta!

How does the MC6000 stacks up against the S4 ??? Seems as though they have the same feature set, but with Denon winning on the hardware side.

Rag - why do you say it wins hardware wise?

Does it work as an external mixer? I think one draw back will be the jogs won't work as well as TPro does only supports 7-bit midi at the jogs.

I think Denon is actually the big loser with this unit in terms of working with Serato & Native-Instruments.

There will be no native support of Scratchlive as far as the jog wheels and the resolution of the jogwheels won't be that great with Traktor. Also add to the fact that you still have to buy an SL-1 or SL-3 for Scratchlive and TS Pro for Traktor. The layout seems like a nightmare as well.

The only positive note is that you can use it as a regular mixer.

^ that's how I see it as well. So even if you buy or have TP your using last years software. Unless you pick this up to run VDJ with it?? Either way, I'd take an S4 at 899.00.

Hardware meaning the MC6000 has balanced XLR outputs and 2 mic feeds. But yeah, that's the answer I was looking for as far as if it had native support with any DVS, coupled with high speed MIDI. Although some DJs might find it attractive to use the open DVS like SSL(video), TSP and VDJ(video) with a controller of this portability and features. Many mobile DJs in my area are not really into scratching so the high-speed MIDI platters is not a deal breaker. Seems to me that the MC6000 direct competition is the AA VMS4. Especially with the VMS4 lower price point.

Is the XLR thing really that big of a deal? The S4 does have balanced output. They are just 1/4". Adapters are available.

The only advantage of XLR in this case are locking connectors. Sound-wise, they're identical.

-KLH

I'm tired of this crap... I think I'm just gonna buy an S4 and write my own make my own opinion.

KLH-

Need a backup? How about an APC-40. Bridge/Itch-NS7/APC-40 will p0wn that S4 (if it ever happens).

One advantage of XLR is that you can use very long cables with minimal signal loss! And they won't become antennas!

XLR are cleaner, less likely to add noise to the signal!

XLRs have 3 cables inside, + and - for the signal and a ground, which is good for eliminating noise from poor filtered power supplies, and electrical outlets! I know you've heard that humming noise before!

Actually what you are describing is a balanced connection. That can be achieved through an xlr connector or through a TRS 1/4" connector like the one present on the Kontrol S4.

+1

Cable and signal 101. *sigh*

Yeh I know about the S4 having bal 1/4. But the MC6000 have both bal xlr out, bal 1/4 out and 2 rca outs (one for rec). That coupled with 2 mic inputs is well thought out IMO for a portable controller. Just worth pointing out because to some of us DJs having a wide array of I/Os like that are pretty important.

True they are important but in all honest given the price point of where the Denon is I expect the audio quality to be decent but not amazing. If I were doing any type of event that would need all that routing then I would simply plug either unit into a dedicated mixing board and call it a day.

Just pointing out some obvious advantages from a hardware standpoint. As far as the sound quality we'll just have to wait and see. I want to get a portable controller, but right now I'm still neutral until the dust settle with these featured laden first gen controllers. They always look like a slice of heaven in the promos but the real deal is the first beta-testers buyers and what they eventually find.

I think that the important thing to remember when eyeing the S4 is that other controllers paved the way wayyy before the S4. I'll actually go on a limb to say that ITCH made it possible for NI to even introduce the S4.

Brief history lesson:

The VCI-100 and Xponent made DJs (and manufacturers) realize that the CDJ/Mixer/CDJ setup could be emulated and accepted by DJs. Even more importantly, everyone realized that CD playback could be dropped without sacrificing anything... but tight jog/platter performance.

For those who bought into these controllers (myself included), we wanted more... higher performance, more features, and more stability. Enter ITCH with the VCI-300 and NS7. After changing our pants, we bought it. And we were happy.

Shortly after, DJs (and manufacturers other than Serato) realized that controllers are the future of DJing with a curious split on implementations: You can have rotating platters OR portability. Trying to kill six birds with one stone, out came the V7... and I fear that that will be the last rotating platter device that we'll see. Anyways, the Xone: DX came out and it became the de facto form factor standard for controllers moving forward.

Advance the clock a bit, you now have multiple controllers with the same form-factor competing for our dollars: DN-MC6000, VMS4, S4, and Xone: DX, which are bundled with Virtual DJ, Virtual DJ, Traktor S4, and ITCH respectively. All of these controllers can control four decks with their matched software. Some even offer high-performance platters (that allow scratching).

IMHO, an unintended side affect of these controllers is that the previous generation controllers (VCI-300, Xponent, VCI-100, NS7, V7) are now basically obsolete - unless you want to scratch then there's life yet in the VCI-300, NS7, and V7. That's not to say that the latter products are dead, it just means that they're now niche products... like the SLDZ-1200 and CDJs to a lesser extent.

So there you have it, ITCH raised the bar and now needs to raise it again. Gotta love progress...

-KLH

KLH

I disagree. Gemini had the idea of needleless turntables way before serato even announced itch. Gemini is not a popular brand hence why it didnt catch very well. Serato on the other hand is popular and accepted thanks to SL so..

controllers have been used for a LONG time way before serato even thought of it. u were just not looking.

I never said that other controllers didn't exist. My point was that the VCI-100 and Xponent broke the mold in terms of being "acceptable" controllers instead of being "just toys." While I did read that several DVS users still consider those controllers "toys," they were (IMHO) the first controllers to have a SIGNIFICANT following unto themselves.

-KLH

I always have issues with people calling other people's tools "toys", but I don't care anymore. While these folks call useful tools "toys" I am ripping it with them. ;) so yea I take them ignoring those tools to further myself and take their jobs. :D hehehe

I mean how many have called the NS7 and VCI "toys"

I'm with you, bro, 100%. I used to laugh when haters' mouths dropped when I rocked the Xponent. WHO CARES what a tool LOOKS LIKE, it's how it helps you that matters.

Anyways, all this gushing over the S4 is getting to be over-the-top. I'm eyeing it because it has a sampler that I'd love to play with. I sincerely hope that the ITCH devs can make something similar for ITCH.

While the Bridge is cool, you need Ableton Live to run it. I didn't buy the NS7 and ITCH to get into Live. This isn't a complaint. It's a hope that a native sampler will appear in ITCH.

-KLH

Why not a couple of V7s + soft sampler (if sampler is what you need?). There are freeware softsamplers, too.

You can control it via computer keyboard or usb keyboard, use the internal soundcard and plug it into a 3rd mixer in, you're done.

Why buying a S4 for that ridicolous 4 slot sampler when you can have full native sampler power? It's a mystery to me.

it is the the whole all-in-one approach.

Besides, the S4 has a pretty nifty feature of recording loops from your tracks or output on the fly.

Harder to do when you kludge everything together by rolling your own.

Let's see what Itch 2.0 and the unreleased Numark 4 channel controller looks like and then I think we will be able to compare apples to apples IMO.

Ok so let's separe for a moment features really useful (a huge, fully modulable sampler bank always at your fingertips, for example) from odd features that look great on demo videos but will be actually used by <0.5% of customers, like on-the

... fly recording of outputs.

I have the NS7 on Windows. As such, Windows can only use ONE ASIO device at a time, which means that I'll need ANOTHER sound interface, but it'll have horrible latency because I'll have to use it as a Windows system default sound device.

As you said, the only way to get a sampler is to use an external program and ANOTHER sound interface AND a compact mixer. That is frankly quite a kludge.

Yes, I could sell the NS7 to get two V7s, a four channel mixer, and use the secondary sound interface directly into the mixer, but that too, is a kludge.

I'm not sold that the S4 is the setup that Jesus would use, but that sampler is awefully tempting. I just love my rotating platters and vinyl feel.

What's a brother to do?

-KLH

how much will it cost me a soft sampler plus 2 v7 plus a mixer that has all the effects that traktor has (and same quality) and lets not forget about the portability of all the previously mentioned devices?

if its less than 899 and as portable as the S4 im in (and this is just a justification of why the S4 is not necessary just for the sampler).

One thing I dig about the sampler in the S4 is the fact that i can make select how long i want the sample to be! 4 beats, 8, .... then i just press the button corresponding to the slot where I want the sample to be and Voala'!!! 4 perfect bars, and it starts playing in sync with whatever is playing! even when I disengage the sampler it continues to play in sync! Not only that! every sample is saved in my library automatically for later use!

It is not the same as those dumb sampler we know!

Another thing I like is: when I start the S4 software with the controller already connected, it is ready to use like in 2 seconds! With Itch I have to wait longer to have it ready! This is something that I would like Serato to improve upon Itch!

The portability is a plus - although it seems to be on the edge of being too heavy and large (I've heard).

The high-performance platters AND sampler are the table stakes. The neat features are the switchable four decks, samplers, and external inputs - that allows expandability. Speaking of expandability, the MIDI mapping features (carried over from TP) REALLY allows controller expandability.

The loop recorder is something that I see growing into - but not used heavily at first... just like all of those effects.

Now what would I miss - besides my sweet motorized platters with vinyl? I've read that TPSP4's beat-grid isn't doesn't support warping, so that's a step backward. The scratching sounds also don't seem as "authentic" as ITCH's, but that might just be how the vids were recorded.

The downsides that I can see right off the bat is that the mic input and gain knob are on the BACK... uhhh why? Also, there's no AUX-IN for a backup sound source. I've read that NI expects DJs to plug their backup into the Deck D's external source... which would be fine until Traktor goes down. At that point, the DJ is supposed to turn the "deck D source" switch (which located on the BACK!!!!) to THRU. What a pain.

-KLH

ITCH comes up fast for me, but I have to wait for the iTunes library to be imported. Otherwise, I'd bet that ITCH would just come up and be ready within 2 seconds or so. (I use an NS7FX.) While inconvenient, I wouldn't call this a deal-breaker.

-KLH

Why is the 2 v7s idea even being pitched? You need to buy two of those, run two computers, get a 4 channel mixer, and a soft sampler. Plus I don't think Itch's effects are in the same league as NIs. Four $899 I can deal with a few limitations for all the benfits, portability and ease of setup.

Either way the S4 seems to have overtaken the VCI and Xone DX.

If NI brings video on their next update things might get pretty interesting. If I remember correctly they had a job posting for a programmer with video experience.

So please tell me, is the scratching sound "artificial" on the S4? Is the platter performance as tight as the VCI-300?

-KLH

plus 1

One guy on the main DJ forum said the control was better than the 300, but the jogs feel smaller. Thats the only person with a 300 i've read a review from. Maybe he was excited. I just got mine shipped to me yesterday. Next week I'll give a full honest review and compare it to the 300 and the NS7.

but it all comes down to if they actually scratch or just like the feel

No controller is gonna feel like a turntable... but the s4 videos show that pretty advanced scratches can be done...

I already own ableton and an apc40 so that's the only reason I'm being patient with itch and not jumping on the s4...

i have not seen advanced scratches yet really

I disagree. For me the NS7 / V7 not only feel like turntables, they are turntables. No doubt.
Just an updated technology to the traditional t/t with tonearm and needle. I even did some test with my cuz who's as old skool as they come. Using a TTX and the V7 I recorded 5 different things from both units and asked him to guess which was the V7 or the TTX. He got only 2 right. 2 weeks later he went to GC and bought an NS7.

Ok... Then what do you consider to be advanced? Like autobahns? I'm not saying every scratch can be done... i.e. I think it's difficult to do hydroplanes for example on jogs... but the ability for crabs to be laid over skribbles or chirps and not sound like garbage on a controller is pretty good im my opinion... (and yes, I know the ITCH controllers can do this too...)




Well... I would argue that sound quality and actual feel are two different things... I'm not putting down the NS7... I'm simply saying that it feels different... The platters are smaller for God's sake! Therefore the arc in which the hand must move on a 12" platter is physically different than a 7" one...

Ok now you're talking about something altogether different . Platter size (12" vs 7") has nothing to do with turntable authenticity. Vinyl records come in both of those sizes and a 7" record can be scratched on a traditional t/t just like a 12" record. But if 12" is what floats your both then substitute the NS7/V7 for a CDX. Same concept really. And again, I think that the CDX is a real turntable, just not in the traditional sense.

Ah... I can't argue with you there... I do own a CDX... And it is still the best vinyl emulation CD deck out there IMO.

Dunno about you, but I mainly play in clubs, and 99% of the clubs here have a DJM800 or a Xone:92 mixer, so it's very easy to plug 3 discrete channels in. On a DJM800, for example, you have a superfilter/quick FX knob for each channel, plus a set of widely praised, good sounding FX. Plus the onboard ITCH stuff... I have to say this setup feels and sounds top notch, sorry S4.

Asio: of course, I am on a Mac, and its superior audio architecture makes possible to have a softsampler running in the background at acceptable latency; I use samplers in clubs since 1993 (EPS16-plus), and I can tell you that a sampler is very useful only if you can load in a full set of samples (not 4!); also, I've routed the modwheel to pitch, so it's a breeze to syncronize to tempo.

BTW I know how it feels to salivate for something, and there's much to salivate on the S4; also you're on the NS7, so what I've just described is a no-no (for example, you'll need another headphone to audition samples).

But a 2xV7 + softsampler + keyboard setup on a DJM800 is more powerful, sounds better, looks way more professional and is more secure (thanks to V7 redundancy) than S4; and I intentionally left the Bridge out of the equation as it's not available yet: after there will be no story.

I see some guys here are talking about the S4 based only on literature and videos they've seen online!




Like I said I have both the S4 and the VCI with me! To answer your question! the S4 jog feel more stable, it has a tighter more precise response and it feels heavier even though the jog wheel is smaller. I can pull more precise, sharper and more complex scrath combinations than with the VCI, and I credit that not to the size of jog wheel but the way the S4 creates resistance with electromagnetic force. the VCI rely on screws to make the platters heavy and that make them feel unnatural.

I'm new to Traktor. One reason I was away I think it was because of midi mapping! I wanted a more natural transition from regular electonic equipment! but with the S4 makes midi mapping looks easier! It comes fully mapped like Itch products but I can still change it to my liking, I mapped the jog wheel to control other parts of the sofware, I use it to adjust the Gater effect in Traktor.

The S4 just gave me new tools, that makes me so much creative! I sound a lot different with this controller!!!! The ability to load 8 samples, or play 3 tracks and 4 samples, or all 4 tracks! plus all of the effects in sync!

I think this is the other way around. I think a standard Mixer like a DJM-800 + two decks, either CDJ's or V7's, etc, plus a sampler. Is not the "alternative" to the S4.

I think the S4 is the alternative to not having all that gear and providing it or a good amount of at a much cheaper price and in one smaller more portable solution. So for the guys that have a traditional set up, the S4 says "hey I can do all of that, some just as good, some not quite as good, and some better for 899.00 and I fit in a large backpack"

"all that stuff"? Every club has a mixer! :-)

+1

+1

To each Dj, its own weapon. I'm only wondering why you are writing these praises on Serato forum instead Native Instruments' one.

because competion is often motivation....

We want something like this for Itch.

And don't you think the message has already passed?

I don't know if the message has been passed. Serato hasn't said much to us in response to any of our requiest or bitching. So i guess not?

Are you joking right?

This thread is about the S4. So why should someone write praises to a different forum? It is *on topic* here on *this forum*.

Really? And what does the S4 has to do with "ITCH general discussion"? It doesn't run ITCH, so it's off-topic.

It is a similar product, one which competes with some of the Itch hardware. So it is damned well on topic.

No matter how much you dislike it: The Serato forums have always been open for discussions and comparisons with other similar products.

Plus this stupid fanboyism does not help anyone. Open your eyes and mind. See what's happening at other places. Competition (and the discussion of competiting products) is only good for us - the customers. So I really don't understand why you're getting your panties in a bunch.

The right forum area for a S4 thread is "General DJ discussion" --> serato.com

FYI I'll receive the S4 in a few days for a review, as I've received the DX and other non-ITCH controllers. I know very well what's happening in other places, but the right place for this topic is not the ITCH forum.

This is a valid question. There's a lot of curiosity in the S4 from users of ITCH and potential buyers on the fence. I thought that having this thread in the ITCH section seemed appropriate. [If not, mods, move the thread to where it should be.]

Stating the obvious, it should be clear to ANY reader that:

* There's nothing wrong with ITCH and the hardware (excluding minor bug fixes, of course)
* The S4 is "new" (and competes directly with the Xone:DX) so there's excitement about it
* Traktor, the bundled software with the S4, DOES differ from ITCH - some features are better and others aren't
* We are fully AWARE that this is an ITCH forum. I haven't seen an entry that disrespects ITCH - and hopefully no one will - because ITCH has raised the bar on the DJ scene and competitors are now chasing it

-KLH

I'm hopeful that this discussion will lead to Serato putting in some of these features. I think it's necessary to have these discussions... probably on both sites.

Why do some people feel so threatened by a thread about the S4?

Why does it bother you so much? You don' have to read it or reply.

i see nothing wrong with this post here.... if you dont think it belongs the dont respond

@Kanario Dj Producer thanks for your post about the jogs--- while i may seen like i was arguing that it can scratch i was more interested in what was the difference and it makes since

+1 Damn, move this thread already. Long overdue

nik39,

"stupid fanboysm" is not an expression that complies with #1 rule of this forum. I'm not a ITCH "fanboy" (for example I bashed the DX in my magazine review while I think I will write a very positive one on the S4). I'm a happy camper, not a "fanboy", and there is a world of a difference.

KLH,

your thoughts are always very balanced; what I dislike is not the topic per se, but reading stuff like "Serato is lazy" or "the platform is dead", which is far from the truth.

I think the S4 (as well as the combo for Itch w/ the Bridge) is the replacement for Ableton Live Djs moreso than a true replacement for Itch or TSP by itself.

These days you can really rock an original set of material in a way that was pretty much the domain of Ableton Live. With Itch + Bridge (eventually) and S4 (now), you can move to that platform as a live performer in a lot of ways and more simple to pull off.

Stupid fanboyism in general. I can't remember having you called "stupid fanboy". So what are you trying to achieve with waving the yellow "rule #1"-card?


No, you have proven multiple times that you *are* a fanboy. I could dig up enough quotes from you which will prove that.


From the history the General DJ discussions area is more geared towards Scratch Live, whilw the Itch Forum is geared more towards ITch and covers also general DJing topics.

Even YOU post non itch related topics into the Itch area, or do you have an explanation for this thread (just an example!) serato.com started by you:

What does it have to do with Itch?

Also (since you're so anal about getting stuff in the right forum): Why are you posting bug reports in the general Itch discussions area constantly? If you have any issues you should post in the correct Itch HELP subforums.

You should not throw with stones if you're sitting in the glass house.

clear now?

because bugs that crash your system, or corrupt files are important news for all ITCH users, AFAIK

Agreed. Serato is FAR from lazy and the platform is NOWHERE NEAR DEAD. If Serato announces something new with ITCH (a new controller, future sampler, release date of the Bridge, or - cringe - video), DJs would be seriously torn between ITCH and Traktor.

That being said, the philosophy of the 1:1 mapping is clearly going to be tested now.

-KLH

and that's all good.

Man, stop backpeddling, and stay on the subject for a second.

But this is the Genral Itch area. Not my or your dump place to collect bug reports. Bug reports should go through the official route - that is either by notifying Serato, or by posting in the help section. You should know that. And I know you know that.

Maybe it is Serato's task to keep users informed about "important news for all ITCH users". They have a "Known Issues" section.

And this YOUR opinion. My opinion is that critical bugs have to be on front page.

And you know very well I post bug reports in other forum areas.

wow really???
so how about that s4 thingy???

I still think the s4 shows one thing to the ITCH format--- others can copy it. ITCH is no longer exclusive. Serato will need more than just top of the line controllers to compete

djcerla,

So you want the forum to be cluttered up with dozens of "djcerla found another bug!!!"-threads?

You seem to need even more attention that I thought. ;)

Anyway, putting that debate aside.

How comes you insist on "this discussion is wrong here, because the S4 is not about Itch" and at the same time you start random threads about random topics (search for "applejuice") in this area... which have zero to do with Itch? Double standards?

(sorry, seems like I am suffering from dyslexia these days)

Nik39,

You like to picture others like idiots, and it's fine for me. But a bug that causes a channel to drop, the system to crash or a song to be corrupted is of the utmost importance, and I'll continue to post stuff like this on General Discussion, keeping non-critical bug reports in other beta areas, like it or not.

guys how about this.

Lets try to keep this thread mentioning ways we can make or want Itch to improve.

In this case it's comparing it the S4 and what it does well and does not. What we want Itch to implement and what we don't.

There is relevance to the controller on this forum as it targets the same market. Taking off the forum is not the way to handle it.

Well there is a known FAQ and known issues section. Anyway, okay, accepted. You are right.

djcerla,
How comes you insist on "this discussion is wrong here, because the S4 is not about Itch" and at the same time you start random threads about random topics (search for "applejuice") in this area... which have zero to do with Itch? Double standards?

I think serato got the message already guys... Let's just wait to see what 2.0 have in store for us.

@haze324 I tried but these to would rather spend post upon post playing i am 'less on topic than you right now " :)

'so when is you eta on getting the s4. I know you have been screaming for itch to add this or add that i would like to see your input on the s4 work flow....

@. nik39

Read the reply to KLH.

I'm actually ecstatic NI came out with the S4. I don't think Serato will just sit on their laurels with this, especially since many of us have been screaming for many of those features. Competition is a good thing. Keeps technology fresh and prices stable. Serato is by no means a stupid company. There will be a response (and I don't mean the Bridge). Problem is if Serato and some unnamed company comes out with an S4 like system, will it ruin it for the Bridge project?

Watchwww.youtube.com

The Bridge seems to offer the most value to SSL. Assumably, ITCH can take advantage of AL's warping and sample playback. Since ITCH has warping, why do we need AL to just playback (and record) samples?

Well, I can think that Serato may be thinking that leveraging AL's extendability for controllers may be save on development costs to produce the same thing while simultaneously getting the marketing/branding good will of being with AL. Price wise, it's a $500 upgrade if you didn't have AL. I dunno, it seems less of a "Wow" than it did 23 months ago.

-KLH

Wouldn't the S4 be considered a top of the line controller? I don't think pricing has to be insane nowadays as these things are mostly just midi controllers.

The good news is that Serato has obviously been working on 2.0 for quite awhile I would imagine and we will see how the two companies leap frog each other with each release.

It is inevitable that this will happen. I'm happy where I am at because I've focused on my output (musically as a DJ) as the benchmark. The moment that I feel that I'm missing something because I have an idea on what I'd like to do creatively for my output, then I'll take a look again and/or request.

But at this point, the S4 and Itch (whatever version) appeal to certain people for certain things. But what I find fascinating is that people tend to focus on features AS IF they actually needed them when their actual output as a DJ is pretty damn plain.

Like my output. lol

yes and i wasnt talking about price-- what i was saying is the controllers for ITCH were the key. So now the focus will be on the software

lol. That was it? I am not sure, but can't you remember what you wrote just a few lines before?? Obviously you can't. That is the explanation to your contradictions.

I hope for you.

Understood.

looks like some tight response for me, would have to put some hands on anyways but seems pretty good.

+1

+1

Oh NOES! Fitty pulled a Czar!!!

-KLH

I don't know about you guys, but I'm getting tired of talking/reading about the S4. For once there seems to be another good controller/software combo on the market. Good for NI.

In about 6 months, they'll catch up to v1.6 of ITCH. Yea!

-KLH

Thank God Numark built the V7 like a Tech 1200.

Sometimes I look at my V7s and I can't believe that came from Numark. No slight to them but it is truly a piece of work.

Damn! and thats what I said when I first seen a video of the VCI-300. Lol my fisrt Dj Software in 2002 was Traktor and I use to scratch using the mouse and trigger play/pause using the the keyboard. Then the Hercules which I didnt want anyone to see. Then the xponent which had a little platter response and lots of buttons and knobs. Now I have the vci-300 which I was sold on by the platter response. Now traktor S4 has great platter response with a shit load of effects and samplers and lots of buttons. Is it time to upgrade again?

I have to agree. In the beginning it was fine but after having bought a new Macbook for it and still having problems with no foreseeable future resolution I'm outta here. Anyone want a VCI-300 for cheap?

+1

Sounds like someone needs to stop tracking this forward then ;p
In all seriousness I do smell what your cookin' ;)

what KLH? sometimes I wonder..

S4 already left 1.7 in the dust...

btw I put my ns7 on craigslist. hello S4. I dont think I will be here much longer. so long itch.

+1

You should have sorted out the audio drop outs faster. Oh and by the way - why haven't you said a single thing on this post yet?

That just means that you're smart. I wonder about myself all the time.

Back to the S4, it sounds like NI's hitting the similar problems that the VCI-300 and Xone: DX had at launch (decks "stick", audio dropouts). Clearly, these aren't show stoppers.

Carry on.

-KLH

dont get me wrong. I think u r a pretty well spoken and behaved person. sometimes I wonder why people like you turn 180 and make statements like this.

"In about 6 months, they'll catch up to v1.6 of ITCH. Yea!"

this means that u think S4 will take 6 months to catch to itch ver 1.6?? right?

dont take it too bad. I could care less in all honesty. As I have said I had it with people putting down tools if I consider them fine. So if I think they are fine and they work for me I could simply ignore comments like the one u made. I mean...

link to deck sticking? I wouldnt call on those supposed audio drop outs so fast. I have a HUGE feeling it is on the users end as most problems with this type of software.

btw I have yet to have a single issue with 1.7..

No offense taken. I like to think that I keep a calm head, but I have been known to spout outright lies in some threads (like the PC vs. Mac).

Anyways, my comments were made in light of common launch problems - not design issues. NI will want to merge TPS4 with TP - a la ITCH 1.7 - and there will be inevitable bumps in the road. That's what I said poorly - as I was pressed for time at work.


www.djforums.com

FWIW, it's been resolved with a jog calibration - a la the NS7 when it launched.

-KLH

lol what lies?

Shhhh... don't tell anyone:

serato.com

It'd been a while since anyone posted in that thread, so I thought that I'd stir the hornet's nest - and sure enough....

-KLH

not very far from the truth... LOL!

KLH... Lol come on bro... Ur a very intelligent guy... No one is saying the S4 is perfect people are just REALLY excited about the features and with all the PROBLEMS the recent updates Itch gave people it is no room to throw stones at other gear... No gear is perfect especially at launch... I dig ur views but there's a fine line between constructive criticism and hating.

+1000 can't wait till 2.0 Itch update and Tracktor S4 software comes to fully get the most out of them! The best thing Numark could have done was allow them to be midi mappable.

Man alive this thread is incredible. I bought SSL pretty much the day it dropped. I got so much stick turning up to my residency with it. Now most of those guys rock SSL which is nice. Back then the bitchin was about vinyl verus SSL.

Now it seems like one massive farking cage fight at times when I read on here.

Reminds me of the days of console wars. Sega / Nintendo. Even Spectrum / Commodore [ UK readers might get that ]

If you even dreamed of mentioning you had Numarks round my way 15 + years ago you might have got a swift punch in the neck.

Surely it's about what ever you feel comfortable with and the MUSIC? Each to their own and all that jazz.

My S4 just dropped and I'm looking forward to getting it home and trying it out. Will report back.

WHOA, WHOA, WHOA! TPS4 has NO key-lock on the sampler slots!

The implications of this decision are pretty far reaching. Of course, there is the option of simply using four decks (which DO have key-lock), but the sampler slots are what most want to use. I'm surprised at this decision by NI.

Most are speculating that performance was the reason behind this decision, but I disagree. Torq has had _16_ key-locked and BPM synced slots since v1.0.5 and warp-capable slots since v1.5. In addition, ALL 16 are capable of recording at once! You can create quite a mess with 16 samples going at once (PLUS the two decks), but being able to is pure win.

-KLH

Are you sure it is not a bug?

Does the S4 has kill buttons for the Q's?

I've read that there are no "instant" kills on the S4 (need turn EQ knob all the way left). Kills can apparently be mapped to another device or keyboard.

-KLH

This is a "feature" of the current release. Future versions of TP may have the samplers have key-lock. That's a BIG miss.

-KLH

FWIW, that's how the NS7 works; IMHO, it's quite workable the way it is.

-KLH

Where did you find this info! Up to this point when I use the sampler, I don't hear any change in Pitch! When I grab a sample on the fly from any song playing in one of the tracks, it sounds the same as the original!

I think that the key lock is done in the background!

But i'm going to take a closer look when I get home!

www.native-instruments.com

-KLH

KLH is correct.

Hopefully this will be in a future release. Gives them something to improve/build on.

MISSING FEATURE #2: NO INSTANT FADER-START

www.native-instruments.com

'Nuff said.

-KLH

fader start is not a deal breaker for me. I rather have instant EQ kill buttons..

I thought the DX didnt have fader start as well..

neither does the vci-300
fader start is the modern version of the 'transform' button on mixers you really dont need that effect

Fader start is not that great IMOP.
IMOP still the A&H Xone DX is superior and the S4 software looks over bloated and
not impressed.

Huh? You guys are crazy if you don't think that this is cool and worth having...

Watchwww.youtube.com

-KLH

honestly no i think that is stupid IMO

To each his own... ;-)

agreed but that shows why i dont feel the need of having instant start so gives a reason for my opinion a barometer to base it on

Here's a little video for the S4 fanboys:
Watchwww.youtube.com

I'm personally still deciding on which controller to get. Probably going to wait to see if Serato partners with any other good manufacturers, or gets any upgrades made to the VCI-300 or DX units.

Still not yet impressed... as an NS7 user. I really need to get my hands on one to be sure though ;)

I'm not impressed..Serato is better.

I did a Traktor demo the other day (with a non S4 controller). I remembered quickly how much I liked the effects engined, but the rest of the software didn't do anything for me at all. I missed Serato almost instantly.

Traktor was a good starter product for me, however.

I love the natural feel and waveforms view in Serato the most..

Just a quick,question from any of u guys? if for example,u transfer ur serato library/crates to the s4,would the cue points be recognized on the s4? because,u could just imagine the agony of setting up cue points again to ur thousands of tracks from serato.Please,i would appreciate any reliable info...Thank you in advance! Cheers!

you should probably ask that on you native instruments forum www.native-instruments.com

There is a tool that converts the Serato database to Traktor Pro, its possible that it could work with Traktor S4 as well but again i suggest you check out their forum.

Thanks man! im actually checking it right now....

To be honest, I'm still not convinced either, but then I found this video and it certainly blurred by decision even more:
Watchwww.youtube.com

But, the years I spent working on my SL library is not worth redoing all over just for the S4 and the condition that it is currently in (too fresh of a unit, 'newcomer' on the scene... might be buggy, etc.)

Wow... You can push the wrong button in endless, creative ways! :-)

It comes with onboard alchol-test: over 0.5/l the machine stops responding to commands, plays an ABBA mixtape in order to prevent the 100% sure buttons mistake :-)

Hey, bro, can you send me that ABBA mixtape? That's a great track to keep cued up on my backup...

"... 'cause you are the dancing queen..."

-KLH

^ hahahahhahahahahah

Dancing Queeeeeeennnnn

Now that shit was funny.
10/10

The S4 controller cannot be everything for every type of DJ! I think it is a waste of time to look for features that are not included when you already know what is being offered!

If the S4 has all the features that your looking for, it is a marriage made in heaven!
And it provides more than what we have on this side of the fence!
The S4 has all the stuff we've been asking for here, for quite some time.

The NE S4 is the most complete and best controller out there for now! (statement based on personal experience, not speculation).

@Kanario Dj Producer I agree with what you said above. It is a controller and it happens to be pushing controllers further into the mainstream.

I am amazed at the people that are posting negative reviews based on videos ect and dont own it

I think the funniest argument right now is it has too many features.... well maybe it does but nobody says you have to use them all. I personally Like ITCH and will stick with it for awhile but would like to see what the next generation of ITCH controllers will have to offer

it's not "funny" at all, especially in 2010, when mass-adopted gadgets and technologies were proven successful on their streamlined functionality/features set.

and again: you can buy a stripped down Lamborghini: no air conditioning, no hifi, etc at a $100.000 premium over the "features-rich" normal version.

That's why the natural NI evolution pattern will be: streamlining their S4 into a S2 offering, redesigning their GUI with big, stacked waveforms (a mission-critical ITCH advantage over its competitors).

Cerla, if look at it from another point of view the S4 IS a stream lined version of gear. For example:

4 CDJ-1000’s, 1 DJM-800, 1 Audio 8, 1 Sampler/Effects Processor, 1 lap top, 4 Time Code CD’s., software to record you loops/samples.

Vs.

1 S4 + a laptop.

Not arguing what is a more professional set up, or what sounds better, etc.
But the S4 just streamlined the above set up. You could say the same about a VCI-300 and a two CDJ’s and 2 channel Mixer.
Also, the S4 GUI without any of the hardware visuals is pretty stream lined…..not quit Itch though.

As you may know, I've always bashed and disliked the Xone:DX for the exact same reason: way too much clutter.

I like my hands to fly on the controller without almost looking at it, not something doable on a DX or S4. And my GUI has to be no frills/huge waveforms/huge fonts. That's why the very capable S4 doesn't impress me, but I guess many will just love it.

Trust me I understand what you mean, and I think most here do as well --- that's why we're on the Itch forum. You stated something similar in another post, but when I first jumped on a VCI-300 I thought "holy shit - this is as close two decks and a mixer that exists" and the GUI was the same way. Nothing to get lost on just track info and wave form. That's what made Itch what it is.

But the flip side is if you want 4 decks you need more hardware and software space, if you want effects you need more buttons, if you want a sampler with your software you also need more buttons, knobs, and more stuff on your GUI. It's a catch 22...at what point do you get all that you want or not enough, and when is it too much.

Somethings gotta give. Oh and do this all in a portable all-in-one controller.

I sit pretty comfortably at "point V7" :-)

if I feel brave, I just plug a proper 2 octaves keyboard in and fire up my trusty NI Battery 3 for full sampler experience without the clutter.

Doesn't seem to stop Shiftee or Ean Golden.



It still seems like the S4 is a more practical solution.

More practical? Only as far as booth real estate is concerned. A proper keyboard is way more practical in real world usage, the sampler is WAY more powerful, the setup is visually stunning, the controller is less cramped. Just plug 1 usb and you're done (this applies to V7, on other controllers is actually less practical due to separate PFL).

A sampler must be controlled externally, IMHO, otherwise you get the subpar S4 sampler experience.

And BTW a demo is something staged in controlled conditions, live usage is a different story as you guys know. Both DX and S4 look like imagined by an engineer (or worse the marketing guy) rather than a DJ.

I think the best controller overall remains the NS7/V7, as long as you can live without 4 decks.

But it was designed with the help of Ean Golden...a DJ. And it is nowhere as cramped as the new Denon unit that is coming out.

Do you have any videos out of you using the NS7 with your recommended sampler setup? I am curious to see it in action.

Here's a guide about how to setup a Battery 3 sampler using VCI-300/NS7 soundcard: serato.com

obviously, the V7s + mixer setup makes the process way less cumbersome as you simply plug the output of your Mac into a third mixer channel.

I don't have a video, but I've recently bought a Canon 60D plus fancy lens to make a bunch of new videos at good 1080p quality, so I guess it's coming :-)

Other than the guy not knowing how to use the device fully what did you see in this video? My eyes were blurry but mostly from boredom. I'm really waiting to see somebody rock out on this controller, but I haven't seen it yet.

Then again maybe they just need the right DJ ;)

It's an option but I don't see it as better then the S4. That's my opinion though. It's also one more thing to bring to set up.

Opinions are fine. I work with samplers in clubs since 1992 and my opinion is that 4 slots just don't cut it; I want everything I possibly use in one "big" keyboard (with +- octave shift), my current Battery 3 program is about 70 samples big.

Then I want pitch, individual FX (delay is a must, then a touch of reverb modulable to get "washes"), samples PFL, and so on.

All this stuff will conveniently come via The Bridge, however, the 3rd party solution works beautifully for me, only drawback, you can't sample stuff live (but 99.9% of S4 buyers will never use this feature in actual live gigs).

I think because technology is making the ability to mix songs together easier and more accessible to the masses, more and more DJ's will be forced to use the more advanced features of their software just so they can stand out amongst other DJs... So I don't necessarily agree that these feature will never be used... 99.9% may be true at first, but that number will slowly dwindle... Look at the usage of effects for example... It wasn't used so widely at first, now DJ's are demanding it as a feature... And I'm not just talking about the S4 features, I'm talkng about the Bridge as well... as soon as more DJs start setting the standard higher using these advances, we will see it adopted more and more. I am sure of it.

Totally agreed mate, however, live sampling is something DJs don't typically do. A beatslicer/repeater has a more dramatic effect on the dancefloor, is more straightforward to operate and doesn't need the performer to be tight as a drummer.

Now, I tell you this from my experience, there may well be some brave heart willing to take the risk of live sampling.

Agreed. Auto-loop/Repeater does the job.

The S4 has 8 slots! 4 with its dedicated channel!

I can have those 70 samples or more playing with the S4 with the loop recorder feature!

I can record layer after layer of music samples or overdub with a dedicated foot switch and play them back automatically while I add more effects live!

check out how is done:
Watchwww.youtube.com

Like I said before! the S4 is not for everybody! Cerla, you like your setup I respect that! I won't trash your setup because it does not work for me! there is a reason you have it, and there is a reason I have a different controller! "Personal Taste!"

If you want to bring your whole studio to the club and perform that's on you my man! I prefer: Powerful, light and compact! that is part of the Apple philosophy! and I think you are an Apple fan boy! but maybe you don't share that vision, at least; not in the DJ world!

Oh! you say you want everything! I thing that the only product that can give you almost anything in one package is the S4 Minus the Keyboard of course but if you insist the S4 has a midi in and out so you can hook up your lovely keyboard.... :))

8 or 4 sample slots with no modulation whatsoever is nothing compared to 70 or more samples under your fingertips, fully tweakable.

Much before becoming an "Apple fanboy" I was a "Ensoniq fanboy", then a "Roland DJ70 fanboy" then an "Akai fanboy", in short I have enough sampler-in-club experience, and I hope Serato will NOT follow NI footsteps in regards of sampling.

(The funny part is that I bash NI sampler using another NI sampler, Battery 3, as an example... lol)

^Still have your ASR10??? I was a Kurzweil K2000 fanboy for the longest time. Sigh. Good times.

-KLH

mate, I had BOTH the EPS16-plus AND the ASR10! I have sold the ASR10, still have the EPS somewhere.

2 MEGAbytes RAM...!

... half an hour for a normalize...!

Remember the number of times that you couldn't find that floppy disk with the sample that you just had to have??? I KNOW it's around here somewhere!

Or spending 30 minutes fine-tuning that loop so that you don't get flaming/aliasing on retriggers?

Remember when you spent hours in (eMagic's) Logic trying to get that MIDI-based delay in THE Environment?

I STILL think that motorized faders are going to change the world (Yahama O2R)...

-KLH

Sorry for the OT but I can't resist...

What about flying to Spain with your DJ70 in flight-case only to discover that the floppy drive had been broken during transport and the programs you've spent weeks to make are useless?

We could probably go on all day, bro! But back on topic...

ITCH user are smarter than S4 users... somehow.

-KLH

notice in that video of Ean showing Ozzy promo. that the S4 moves as he messes with the pitch fader as it is so light.

a nice review by Engadget (9/10) www.engadget.com

^ yeah good review --- wish they would point out any flaws or ways it could've been better.

Thanks for posting.

I agree! Smart enough to notice the difference!

You know since DJ Cerla talked about the sampler in the S4 has no modulation! I started playing with it! Now I discovered that I can scratch the sample, add a stack of sound effects, each sample slot has a dedicated filter and volume control. You can do so many things with this controller, it's crazy! You can definitely tweak the samples!!!

One thing that I like coming to Itch is the Mixtape recorder! and the fact that you can edit your post recorded set!

I'm going to use both softwares as long as I can! maybe in the future I will be able to write a long term report!!!! Itch won round 1, the S4 round 2, round 3 Fight!

OK next year I'll explain you what modulation is.

i think he is just looking at the word 'mod'

My hermano!

What i'm talking about is, electronic modulation! You are maybe thinking and talking about music modulation!

No.

For example:

MODWHEEL---> PITCH TRANSPOSE
PITCH BEND WHEEL ---> PITCH BEND
ROTARY 1 ---> SAMPLE START
ROTARY 2 --> LFO INTENSITY
ROTARY 3 --> BITS DEGRADE
ROTARY 4 --> PAN

Cerla, what is it the S4 sampler can not do from the above.

And what it can not do, can you give an example of when you would need it.

I think some of the limitations were designed around the hardware for it to fit. I've read that some folks are pluggin in their X1's to have more control over the samplers.

The S4 sampler is a neat performance tool, but live sampling capabilities will seldom be used in real world situations. DJs need samplers more for jingles/sirens/synth stabs playback.

What would have made me salivate is a built in sampler matrix à la Battery, triggered via external MIDI, and assignable to one channel of the S4. Click "Edit Sampler Matrix", edit the matrix, bam! ready to rock your 100 samples army. No live sampling, just playback of a pre programmed, huge set of samples.

This way, they would have kept the control panel tidier, lowered the S4 price, made me consider switching.

This said, it's very possible that for some users live sampling is a game changer, not for me though.

@djceria... Sounds good... do u think "Itch" will have that feature anytime soon?

That's my request for Santa :-)

My S4 arrive just now. Haven't played on it - just opened it up and installed software and checked out the hardware. Intial thoughts

- It’s big, well it’s wide. Won’t fit in a cramped booth. But it’s super light.

- Buttons and knobs are right off the X1. They feel great

- Jogs feel A LOT like a CDJ, but I can see why they had to do the calibration deal. They’re heavy and feel good – but the platter on top im “iffy” about. The platters are also mini vinyls with tiny grooves. We’ll see how they are once I play on it.

- Faders. AWESOME. Volume faders are heavy enough that they won’t move on their own or accidental brush, same as the pitch sliders. The move great too. Crossfader is perfect. They don’t feel cheap like a controller at all.

- Layout – it’s a bit crammed, but they made little things to keep you from accidentally hit things. For example the load button has a little plastic ring around it and the button sits flush with the ring. So you have to push past the tiny ring to actually push the button. It was built very well but it’s crammed in the center, and there’s tons of knobs and buttons. A VCI-300 + VFC-1 is a MUCH MUCH easier set up.

Better review tomorrow once I play on it for a few hours.

This is gonna be around for a while. It's a VERY nice (looking) piece of gear.
There's definetly a market for this.

actually this is exactly what i want as a sampler goes i don't just want a play bacl or random sirens ect a simple live simpler in the soft ware--- making party breaks and looped transitions on the fly.

just did 4 hours last night with the S4.
I like it more than the vci300 or xonedx, but im keeping my v7s.

it's actually quite a nice piece of kit, no dropouts at all, jogs are really impressive.

Out of curiosity what type of music do you spin and are you using the Beatgrids?

Sounds like the controller is a winner... Although I'm not in the market for hardware right now I agree with yeadef about my V7's:) I can't wait till S4 software is released.

Seems to me the only way Serato's gonna be able to compete is if they release the Bridge for ITCH asap. Right now my XoneDX seems incomparable, and it really pisses me off that they didn't release the bridge software for ITCH along with Scratch as they led us to believe it would. Sometime in 11' is way too vague, I highly suggest they finish up this software very soon or their going to start losing ALOT of customers, including myself.

I'd rather it be released right than quick.

After having played with my S4 (finally) and having used The Bridge I think I can safely say that even with the Bridge, ITCH has a long way to go before it touches Traktor S4.

Steele725, your not wrong on your last point. Sadly Serato already lost one, ME.

all types.
yes.

in my experience, if you grid the song properly, it will not drift.
if i'm bringing in a song that i haven't already gridded out, I just beatmatch it by ear.

That skill will always be required no matter what - even if it's just to validate that the beat-gridding works.

-KLH

Mostly all of the deck features like cue and play, the jog wheel work with the sampler! I can control the sampler like a regular deck! So if I want to drop a siren for example at any point in time, I just cue the sample and hit play. Plus I still have the sampler dedicated trigger buttons just in case one need to switch the transport controls to another deck! The sampler works equally well with one shots and loop samples!

Appreciate your response Kanario, Id love yours (or anyones) opinion as to my next move having played with the Bridge. Do you think that the producing/controllerist creativity offered in the S4 could really match what is perceived to be possible with the Bridge? I feel Ableton has way more sampling/effects capabilities than Traktor. If integrated with Itch it could also be used with A&H's 20 channel soundcard built in the DX.. Im more of a controllerist in electro, glitch/trip hop and dubstep.

(Traktor Scratch Pro, Audio 4 Soundcard, Ableton 8 Suite, 2 Technics 1200's, Novation Remote SL25, A&H XoneDX, APC40)

My last message was directed to "The Reverand," not Kanario, my apologies.

problem with bridge is extra money for ableton and a learning curve... ableton controls are different than dj controls... traktor simplifies it and put it in one package

@Kraal I believe there is a lot more to come. N.I. hired Chad from Torq (the man behind the Xponent and alot of Torq's ideas) So cant wait to see some more of his ideas in this S4

What's up with Torq BTW? The last thing I saw was this at this years BPM show:

img607.imageshack.us <- click

::cricket::cricket::

The poster falling over is CLASSIC! LOL!

They really should rename Torq to Drift. Great DJ app, but the sticker drift kills it.

-KLH

Torq has some really good features and ideas but never could really seam to get their data base to work properly, it seems they just stopped working on it

just to make sure you are following me --- what i said was not an insult to the s4

Roger That

I can't help but keep clicking and laughing - but it's not funny. It's SOOO sad what AVID did to Torq. Shame on them.

Anyways, back to the S4.

In case anyone is interested, here's the manual and poster:

[links removed]

Many Bothans died to bring you this information.

-KLH

... and no, I do NOT own the Kontrol S4. If it had 12" rotating platters - I wouldn't have made a thread.

-KLH

That S4 is looking better to me every day. Gonna wait a few months until the wrinkles are mostly ironed out before I purchase. Who knows, maybe Itch will come out with a big announcement

+1
I was thinking the same thing.

Actually there will be three big hardware announcements.

Just in case this (great) thread gets lost, check out a VCI-300 to Kontrol S4 comparison:

serato.com

Excellent job, Haze324! Those are questions that most are asking right now.

-KLH

anything exciting we should know about?

You mean besides the Torq booth?

-KLH

My REVIEW

I played last night for a little over 3 hours. Here’s the breakdown
1.5 hour – hip hop/old school
30min – reggae
30min – r&b
30min – 80’s, Motown (Michael Jackson, Stevie Wonder type shit)

The GOOD:
This thing is very comfy -- the size is perfect. The knobs, buttons and faders all felt like A+ quality gear. The new GUI is very easy to look at and it has an “essential” view that strips away many un-needed icons, huge improvement. The sound quality is fvcking awesome. I played on 4 Yamaha 15’s, some Peavy PA highs, and a Peavy AMP/PA system. The bass was deep and rich for those with an NS7, this sounds just a good and much better than a VCI. EQ’s, Filter’s, etc all sound great. Sample decks work as advertised. If your close to the BPM’s they will sync and sound great and on time – no need for keylock if your close to the playing BPM. Jogs react very fast in platter response and pitch bend – size was not an issue. Effects lay out is perfect and easy to use. White stripes on the knobs are easy to see in a dark booth. Volume meters are the perfect color. Buttons react on time and fast (when not in “sync” they are dead on, when sync’d, or quantized the delay happens to get the song in sync). Also, pretty neat that any loop you take from a playing deck and play in a sampler deck, automatically get’s saved in your sample folder for future use. Without a doubt the bar has been set. It’s everything it’s advertised to be.

The BAD:
New layout confused me a few times with the buttons and I re-cued a song, one time I even stopped the playing deck (luckily I had a loop going). Still not use to the jogs not having any tension (jog review here: www.serato.com) IN the booth this thing looks and feels solid. As soon as I picked up to leave, it felt a light and fragile. I also forgot to check the headphone volume in the software not sure what it was at, but at full volume on the hardware the sound was pretty low (I need to double check the software – there is a software cue and master volume, and there is also a hardware cue and master volume). Also the Cue Mix control is on the front of the controller (vs. the top like a vci) next to volume by the jack. I kept forgetting which one was which and listening to the wrong song. I stopped messing with it after a while. My biggest drawback has nothing to do with the S4 hardware….it’s the waveforms in comparison to Itch. Straight up colored waveforms, stacked, with a much better grid system is a HUGE tool. I think for EDM the S4 is insane and I probably play more House music than hip hop normally. However, last night when playing hip-hop I could’ve just turned off the grids or not even had waveforms the majority of the night was done by ear and to me that’s pointless to have grids or waves that don’t tell you much.

The VERDICT:
The bar is set very high. I’m gonna sell my Itch gear (for now). After playing on the S4 I don’t think I can go back to the VCI. Too cramped, not enough features, etc.. Even if Itch 3.0 came out today on the VCI, the S4 is now the hardware standard. Probably gonna sell the NS7 also, I’m not gonna use that any time soon and don’t feel like lugging that thing around (may keep it just to have platers to mess with at the house). I’m gonna use the S4 strictly until I leave hear in May-Aug time frame. If by then, Itch has a controller that rivals the S4 I’ll give it a very serious look. I figure by then I’ll either be the master of the S4 or know that I need something with comparable features and hardware to satisfy me. Either way I’ve stopped stressing waiting for Itch to make a move, NI hit a homerun with this thing (and I probably only used 30% of it’s potential last night). Itch has its hands full.

Wow:)

Wow +1

+1

something to add about the waveforms in Traktor for those considering it. They are not that good unless it's EDM music. With EDM music the grids and the waveforms are great, with anything else the waveforms suck and the grid's are sometimes not on a down beat and sometimes you can't even tell what a down beat is by the waveform. The waves and grids in Itch are a thing of beauty. That's the one thing that keeps me hanging on to Itch for the future.

I chuckle because when people thing Traktor they thing "Sync" but Itch has better waves and grids, and even if you don't sync you just line up waveforms. Last night on a bunch of him-hop songs I had to strictly use my ears and im not gonna lie - I was off when I first got started.

haze just advise from one dj to the next dont rush to sell the ns7 -- there is still the 'new factor' of the s4 that is at hand after that wears of the ns7 might not be so unexciting

kraal - good advice man. I most likely will keep it to have some platters to play on a the house and keep a great piece of gear. I just don't see me every getting motivated enough to pack up the NS7 and take anywhere to gig with.

...plus I'm away from home for sometime and it's just sitting in storage.



Yeah I'll keep it. That thing is just fun to play on.

I agree with Kraal..plus.. if and when 2.0 comes out, who knows what will be on the platter. I love my Xone Dx and Itch and does the job for me. My mixes have never been better in terms of music selection and the mix.

I can't ever see getting rid of the V7's also... But that's hardware... Hoping Itch 2.0 makes magic OR....

I see a lot of guys talking about the Wave in Itch and Traktor! When I play I don't see that much of a difference, The colored wave in Itch made sense in the past when we didn't have grids. Adding color to the wave in Traktor is useless! The beat matching capabilities in Traktor are so good, that you can press the play button blind folded, in complete silence and play 2 tracks in beat! It has a snap to grid feature that allowed you to press play at any point in time, and the songs will be perfectly aligned!

So the crayola waves in Itch have color for a reason, and the small window in the middle helping you beat match song is there for another reason! The fact that waves are on top or next to the other in Itch is for a reason! And the reason is:

SERATO DIDN'T HAVE ANY AUTOMATIC SYNC CAPABILITIES! So the visual cue was needed! Now it is just part of the product GUI. Traktor because of its superior beatmatching and quantize capabilities does not need any of that!

I use the wave color scheme in Itch for more then just beat matching and sync. It's perfect for backspins to a certain point on a track without having to use headphones. But I do see what you mean.

^ Agree. THe Itch waves and color provide ALOT more than just something to beatmatch with. Also, I don't think the AutoGrid system in Traktor is all that great outside of EDM 4/4 songs.

So wholly wrong.

Today while I was playing with my S4, I decided to play with 4 tracks, I sync 3 decks at 127bpm house beats and leads, and I had another deck with a hip hop beat at about 63bpm, this deck was not synced! all of them playing in pure harmony! If I try to do the same thing with Itch, I need to call a baby sitter before getting a drink!

Your mixes are going to be as good as your gridding! This is true in Traktor and will be the same with Itch and Scratch Live! Auto grid is good with EDM because it can recognize the pattern more easily!

But what is it about waves. All I need to see are the peaks and valleys, no need for colors! Waves are just a reference! or a luxury. didn't need it and didn't miss it when I had the CDJs.

Yeah the ability to sync only works as good as your gridding and Itch has a better grid system. I've bugged the guys a bit about warpable gridding and I think there is enough of a demand for it that Traktor will introduce it to the S4 sometime next year. It only makes sense with the competion (Ableton and Itch) having it.

The colors for me do wonders because I can get away with not having to count beats and bars on vocals to bring in the next track. I can look up and see that a vocal is comeing or about to end and "guestimate" how much time I have for a transition. It lays out the sounds of track with out me having to listen to it or remember how long a certain portion goes for.

I think the S4 is a an awesome piece of hardware, I also think the S4 software is a tremendous upgrade from TP both asthetically and in features. WIth some warpable grids and some more descriptive waves it would be perfect (for my needs).

I have no problems with Itch and Sync..works fine in 1.7.1. love it!
For me the grids in Itch are easier to manage than in Traktor.

The DJs best friend are his ears! I can mix all day without any visual cue! I come from the DJ Old School! I don't have to count any bars there is something inside of my head that tells me all kind of information about a song while it is playing. When the chorus is coming, the verse, etc, In electronic music this is super easy! Music is like Math! Modern music is so repetitive, and so easy to make, that producers are laughing all the way to the bank with this!

Anyone can develop this musical sense! First thing one need to know is how songs are put together. Every genre has it's own style! but the pieces are the same: Intro, chorus, verse, etc. All this pieces are rearranged depending on the genre. there are exceptions of course!

My point is that any DJ can develop this sixth sense if you will! The colored waves are unreliable, your ears are not! They are perfect. And perfect is a word that will never be applied in Electronics, including software!

it is a preference someone says they like and use the color waveforms then leave it at that a history of why you dont isnt going to change some ones mind after a while it becomes talking in circles for the sake of talking

What a bunch of nonsense, Kanario.

You know what is nonsense? Talking smack about a product that you have not even touched! It is not only nonsense is baseless! Nonsense is telling people here that it is better to carry around a bunch of equipment, samplers, your beloved keyboard with the 70 plus samples, ns7, computer, etc, etc, etc......as opposed to using a single piece of equipment that can do the same thing, like the S4. That is nonsense unless you want to break your back!





I'm not trying to convince anyone here! I'm expressing my point of view! And my point of view is not money! some people here don't read every post. and yes! we are all talking in circles because Itch has not given us anything new to talk about!

I have to agree with this one.

This is pure nonsense, and it's just an example.



"talking smack"? the S4 is a good product with its shortcomings like a cluttered interface. As opposite, I'm only defending ITCH (we're on ITCH forum after all), highlighting the advantages some setups (like mine) have over the S4. And FYI I have a S4 here for magazine test since last Thursday.



Can you quote when I said it's "better"? No, of course, because I've never said such a stupid thing. I was only refering to the limited S4 sampler capabilities over a proper sampler (which is an undeniably true fact); you shouldn't try to twist other people's words.

While you write things like:



without being aware that the Xone:DX (the only 4 decks enabled ITCH controller so far) can SYNC 4 decks in total no-babysit mode, on a much more powerful beatgrid system that allows for proper warping whereas Traktor's one lags behind.

You should research more before attacking other people and/or spraying shit blindly on the ITCH platform, otherwise you'll only end up looking dumb.

Question... If Itch were to add a sampler how would people like us take advantage of it? and by "us" I mean people who own NS7's, V7's, DX's and the rest of the 1:1 hardwire Itch gear... Is everyone suggesting bite the bullet and buy new gear?

I’ve thought about this tons and this is where I think Serato has but themselves in a box. Perhaps if a sampler was introduced for current Itch hardware owners it would work as the SP-6 with your keyboard. I don’t know how effect that would be in comparison to other samplers out right now, but hey – it would be something more than what is currently available. Perhaps additional hardware – but that would suck. I don’t think there is a good answer. Very curious to see what Serato has for Itch – they’ve got some stiff completion with the S4. It would be very unfortunate for them to release a new piece of hardware with all the solutions and then what happens to the current owners. I’m beginning to think that the Itch closed hardware protocol is going to be tough to coordinate with 4 different companies.

if you use vdj with the vfx-1 you will see that the vfx-1 can control a sampler

besides i still say ableton coming out with an ITCH sampler hardware would work

Initially there was no plan to add sampler in the upcoming 2.0, I was one of the many who was begging for a sampler, but like many dj did they improvise and used other alternatives, eg. Kueit great program. If serato does decide to add a sampler, I think the best thing to do is add midi assignable for sampler only....

or create a stand alone serato sampler software that works with ssl and ITCH and that can be run by any midi controller you choose

^ Wouldn't that be (ahem) Ableton Live via the Bridge? THAT seems to be Serato's solution for ITCH. Unfortunately, it's a VERY EXPENSIVE solution because you need to buy Ableton Live 8.

-KLH

nope live is too big

Since I produce and DJ I've owned Ableton for yrs now (but not to happy with paying for the update in order to use bridge) the issue is much deeper than just adding a feature... Some people have touched on the subject but only lightly and thats the business relationship between Serato/Rane. No one can deny SSL as being a great piece but I can't help but have the feeling that Rane is controlling much of what Serato is allowed to do with Itch.

1.The look of Itch (although there are several versions of Traktor cosmetically they look the same (except for S4)

2.The supply and demand from other companies wanting to be part of the SL movement. but couldn't because of Rane so Serato had to come with Itch.

However I do applaud the concept of Itch and Serato's relationship with A&H and Numark I really feel like they should release Itch as software only and allow "US" users to use whatever hardware we choose... the 1:1 is great if you want all-in-one but I think Serato is spreading itself too thin with Itch and this format because they have to approach every piece of gear this way and that's hurting us in the end with slow updates and features. Serato is great with adding features and listening to the consumer but with them tying their hands by locking themselves in with companies and hardware they are shooting themselves in the foot... If all Serato had to do was focus on Software, Features and Updates All other companies like N.I. would have serious problems. IMHO

But UD if Serato made Itch open to any hardware, wouldn't that essentially make it SSL.
I think there are many DJs out there that are ok with the 1:1 concept of Itch and that is who Serato their partners are targeting.

how many?

Wait for it............

unicorns or magic stars?

That's the whole idea lol... How many people complained about being "stuck" using the Rane box in order to use SL? I think Serato saw their software become very popular but being locked in with Rane couldn't take advantage of spreading the software... Don't get me wrong Rane have great mixers. But I think this is the case of demand for the software more than the demand for the hardware... This is just my opinion.

Trust me... With all the complaints and demands customers have put on Serato about Itch I know they are listening... Serato invented SL so it would be no problem to implement the same features such as a sampler and video. But I really feel legally their hands are tied. Itch fanboys can sit here and talk about Itch is Itch and SL is SL but thats a bunch of crap... lack of features is a lack of features... Like Katt Williams said... a 300M looks like a Phantom until a Phantom pulls up lol.

I think saying legal hands being tied is off base the only thing legally that cannot be done is have ITCH controllers controll SSL.

that being said ITCH is still young on the development cycle so I honestly say just wait and see what happens with 2.0. Serato anounced that they have decided to re work 2.0 in order to bring more features to its users ( thus the reason 2.0 was not released when it was originally planned)

I'll take the bait. Yes, SSL is a cash-cow and I'm sure that BOTH Serato and Rane are wondering about how ITCH's success may change the relationship between the two...
but that's irrelevant.

The only thing that matters is top-line sales and so far... SSL is (and will foreseeably be) ahead of ITCH. I understand your point - that Rane forced Serato to do that - but IMHO the difference between Serato's philosophy and competitors - especially NI - is that Serato's focus is making the hardware be the draw.

In SSL's case, you get to use YOUR TTs or CDJs. With ITCH, it's similar - check out how these controllers are very similar to your TTs or CDJs. Also, see how using it is just like using your TTs and CDJs.

The competition - especially NI - doesn't care about keeping the feel of TTs and CDJs. The differentiator, to them, is the software itself. THAT is why Serato doesn't charge end-users/DJs for the software - which is (very) smart.

The game changed with the Xone:DX. For the first time, Serato decided to push SOFTWARE FEATURES (beat-grid, warping, four-decks) in ITCH. I'm sure that NI said "WTF? That's our strategy!" and threw money at stopping the hemorrhage of customers from Traktor to ITCH. Let's face it, which would YOU buy, a Xone:DX or a VCI-100 - Traktor's premier controller.

Now that NI has responded in kind with the Kontrol S4, the 4-deck controller war has started... and IT'S ON. Rane has NOTHING to do with this war because their 4-deck product, the Sixty-Eight, cannot compete with the price/performance of a controller with ITCH or Traktor.

The ball is now in Serato's court... and unfortunately, we have to wait until Winter NAMM to hear the response. All that I know is that I will be saving up my money because if ITCH and Traktor do finally incorporate both sampling AND video, I'm there... unless the NS12 comes out.

-KLH

Both valid points but I do think it's still a legal issue with Rane and Serato... Serato doent's make hardware and them spreading themselves thin with 1:1 with so many controllers is not good for the consumer... The gazillion threads on here is proof.

As far as Traktor not caring about keeping the feel is B.S. because they have software for that option also... and that's my whole point about Serato... With them focusing on software instead of so many hardware companies they could be a whole lot more to a whole lot more people... Video/sample and whatever else would have been taken care of... I'm not saying Itch 2.0 won't have the features we are asking for... Just saying the S4 forced their hand and if Serato doesn't react to specific request you know why. I admit I love Traktor but it's not that they are better... we've already said they approach DJin differently... I applaud them for making a open software and you can use it or control it as you please. Maybe Serato need to make SSL-Itch with video and sampler software and allow any midi controller to be used...

actually that is great for the consumer you can choose your controller/your company instead of just choosing one controller you have the choice of the portable vci the motorized decks of the ns7 the 4 decks of the xoneDX ect

and these gazillion threads only prove that most people log on to forums only to complain :)

really? against their philosophy? hmm

Quoting sucks on here sometimes...

My response was

I have heard that Video with Traktor is a no go...ever. It goes against their philosophy for the product and the company.

With that being said, Winter NAMM is going to be bringing some serious releases.

They are an audio company. That is their focus. Will that change...possibly. I am somewhat seeing the S4 and their huge price cuts as their last ditch attempt to break Serato's stronghold in the US. Will it work...not sure but they need something. i can't honestly see how they can sell products at these prices. I am sure their DJ division is not as profitable as the rest of the company.

@Rebelguy I think the price cut is do to the S4 software release soon . But u could be right... a few have said they picked up Traktor due to the cheaper price tag... If that's the case good market strategy.

its both get you to bite on the old version then you pay to upgrade to the new no matter what you get new customers

@kraal I was speaking of the fact it not being far to the consumer because it's just not 1 or 2 pieces of hardware Serato has to worry about... its more like 4-5 and each demands separate attention... That cant be good for timelines for updates and new features.

dj urkel ahh i got yah ----

One of the reasons the S4 has such a great price is because NI manufacture its own hardware. And I won't be surprise if NI drop the price some more in the future. Or maybe as soon as Itch comes out with new hardware! A good strategy to discourage new buyers from getting Itch! Serato will have to match the S4's features and price. Good news? Definitely!!!

We are all over 2.0 and I think a lot of people will be pissed if we need to get Ableton live to use of all the new features. Plus new hardware. Good news? Not!!!

It's amazing how many marketing experts are around here! If I was Serato I'll hire you all guys. Or not.

This reminds me the days of Olympic Games: every taxi driver, bartender and their dogs suddenly turn out to be massive experts of athletics, anti-doping, muscle stretch.

i dont get how buying and s4 is fine but buying new itch hardware is not

Well in my opinion Serato has dropped the ball marketing wise in some areas and could've done a better job pushing a product and meeting deadlines. Since this thread is about the S4 I think NI did a great job letting Dubfire leak something over twitter, then doing the vid, then the official, intro....etc.

Also, I think it's not so much of marketing --- but having a clear roadmap. 1 year, 2 year, 3 year plans. Etc. Obviosly the S4 was not thought of over night. The X1 was a good feeler for them to jump into the controller market, and going back to the NI forum and reading posts that a year or two old folks can see plenty of hints being dropped of the direction a product is going.

I get that here some days - but I think the original introduction of Itch was very clear. Provide a a stable platfrom that most closely resembles two decks/TT and a two channel mixer. But where was the product supposed to go next. I'm sure the marker influences that some --- but with so many posts here about effects, samplers, more hardware, what are the hardware companies doing, the bridge, etc. It's hard to really know or get a feal of the direction this product is headed.

Hence everyone is anxion to know what the next release holds, sinec "somthing" IS supposed to coming. Whi knows maybe all the fuss is just The Bridge and a new controller and nothing more. It's hard to tell.

i think people are missing one thing -- untill the s4 was close to ready to be released there was no big huge buzz or marketing .. just this past week seratoHQ has mentioned something about itch 2.0 on twitter

uhhmmm.....there was some chatter on the NI board, but all rumors. Some thought it was Maschine Integration, but the comon idea was that money is made on hardware so it had to be along those lines.

The first tweet by Dubfire was back in June.

I think since it's the first NI dedicated controller you don't see the backlash of folks upset for having to buy a new controller. I think the next generation of NI products will be closer to what we have here. With the VCI, DX, etc. and a possible "new" controller for new features.

Hey what did the Tweet say?

the other side of the coin is that a lot of X1 users are now feeling kinda ripped off.

Not really.

Turntable users still need a dedicated Traktor Controller, and plenty of DJ's still beleive that you get the best sound fron an analogue mixer vs. internal.

If there are folks that are upset it's a minority.

I still read plenty of folks getting X1's to use in small boths with the house mixer where the S4 would never fit.

Not really! Really! including some of my friends from Italy and Germany.

Why should they? The X1 is a different device with a different target market.

Just have a look on this forum, there are dozens of (happy) X1 users with SL. Why should they feel ripped off because NI has released the S4? The S4 is a very different product.

Hey I've got one for you. They should not be upset because:

"The X1 still does everything it was advertised to do at the time of purchase"

Why are they upset. It still does everything they bought for 200 bucks.

Serious shit, my boy with VCI-300 was having a hard time finding room to play in small cramped lounged in NYC. He just got a X1 and is happier than hell with it.

The X1 still rocks bro.

Just reporting what my friends told me, not trying to give a sense out of the thing.

Anyway, the point is that I don't see "a lot of X1 users who feel ripped off" by the intruduction of the S4 either. Not here, and not many on the NI forums either.

Well, 3 out of 3 X1 owner I spoke with told me the same thing, they must be the only 3 in the world.

Those 3 out of 1000s of usesr must be a representative, average set.

What I said.

Yes, 101 statistics, eh?

yeah saw that, you think they might throw us a PB before christmas?

twitter.com

Noice!

So now the S4 forums are freaking about not having dedicated booth-outputs, LOL.

There's always something to b!tch about. Forget all of those nice-to-have features, "No booth-output? Forget this piece of sh*t." Uneffingbelievable.

-KLH

And it was all because of that one dude bringing it up all over again...and he didn't even buy the unit.

I dont think x1 buyers should feel ripped out at all! At least they can still use the x1 in combination with an S4! no?

The X1 was designed to add more functionality for people who already have the Traktor Interfaces and use turntables or Cd players. I see The X1 as the equivalent of the Dicer but for Traktor!
You can still use The X1 by itself but you will need an audio interface!



From a Business standpoint, I think you are right about hiring everyone! Some companies will basically kill for info about the consumer. Google is a big example! And Apple is the best at executing and using all of this information! We are giving feedback for free!

I remember that on the forum I mention something about Traktor being everywhere. I made a comment about Rain computers having a DJ ready Laptop! And the product description said something about the computer being Traktor ready! No word about Serato. Then a couple of weeks later, I checked back on the website. And, surprise!!! the paragraph was changed to this:

Quote: A powerful audio notebook designed by Rain for the ultimate performance and compatibility with your creative software like Pro Tools and Serato. Unquote! lol! Someone's listening!!!! Or is it pure coincidence????

New direction:

If ITCH already incorporated samples, would the Kontrol S4 be a compelling product? I don't think so...

-KLH

interesting...

You need to narrow that down for it to be an accurate statement. What kind of sampler are we talking about SP-6? Also what hardware would there be available for Itch, what is currently available? No 4 channel controller with jogs you can scratch on. NI has it's share of the marker. I think if both products had equal samplers with equal controllers then things would be how they are now, with current customer base.

True but still worth discussion, don't-cha-think? If, say, the Xone:DX were released as a MKII product with scratchable platters and the cue buttons could play samples... I think that we might have a contender.

-KLH

I think if they both offer the same features then Traktor DJ's will remain Traktor DJ's and Serato DJ's (whether Itch or SSL) will remain Serato DJ's.

I think variables are:

1. What does one offer that the other doesn't. Traktor has better FX, now has a loop recorder, etc. Who knows - Itch may offer Video soon?

2. What hardware do you physically enjoy more if the above are not a big deal

So I still think we would have this discussion. What happens when the S4 supports Time Code? It's a race.

Just to chime in, previously there was talk about 14-bit midi. The S4 does have a midi mode but not by default with Traktor.

The S4 uses it's own protocol to communicate with Traktor called NHL. This creates the one-to-one direct communication with Traktor providing high-resolution control with the jog wheels and other functions.

Midi mode is for using the S4 with other software or for custom mapping, etc.

Quartz whats up brother....

haven't seen you chime in, in a while. You still on the NS7 and Traktor.

What are your thoughts on the S4.

Hear, hear brotha... What's been happening?

well, this can't be good:

www.djtechtools.com

some serious bugs starting to show their face. Better to wait - glad I am. I think the Bridge with Itch should be enough to keep us all working towards perfecting that solution IMO.

rob.

That whole post is about one guys problems. I am not sure that it is a batch of serious bugs. Dude sounds like he has a faulty unit.

I like how Haze got all up in that thread. lol

There seem to be buggy software issues rather than hardware (except for the jog wheel issue, possibly).

yes how long before he get labled as 'S4 fanboy'

But it didn't seem like anyone else was really experiencing it except the one dude. If there are more it does not seem widespread.