good point about the problem quickly getting progressively worse each time the loop gets cut in half. I didn't notice this because i mainly use loops at 8 or 16 beats.
lets please get this in to serato engineers.

I want to make a video on how looping gets used by myself and other local dj's, and this causes a big issue.

Code:E, I'd like to see that video. I'm guessing SSL will have beatgrids as standard in coming versions, and that might affect loops too...

School is keeping me busy right now. so it might be a week or so before i get a video out.

I usually make a cue point at the start of each loop section and it usually lets me do the area I want.. if, the track is some points off.. say, Serato says it is 175.03 bpm, I usually just edit the tag so it is 175bpm, which is usually more correct than 175.03. This fixes some issues

BUMP!!!!!!!
PLEASE FIX THIS!!!!!

Yes!
there is definitely an issue going on with serato's "smart loop" feature.
not sure if it's isolated to HID mode or not, but it will be great to get it sorted.

No its not isolated to HID mode with serato it effects all version of serato weather you use timecodes are not. This issue has never been able to be confirmed until the CDJ2k's added the .1 decimal place to there BPM display.

Hmm I'm thinking maybe also your 'cut to half and half' beats could be the issue, if you cut to half a beat or less, it moves the starting position of the loop when you push a higher beat number loop in.. I think it makes a new loop from the position you clicked on. Rather than the start of where the current loop is playing

p.s. I use 3x deck mode solely to get 2x decimal places

he's talking about cutting the loop in half. 16 to 8 to 4 etc..
if the loop is off a little it will get more noticable as it gets smaller.

Yes thats what i mean.... Once im down below 1/2 a beat in length, my looping is largely done as an effect and timing is not as important...

Ah yes that is annoying.. I think if you edit your tags and make sure if it is 175.00 bpm, that is READS 175.00 bpm.. not 175.03 etc.. this will really help your loops

Nope that wont really help in this situation... though i wish it did....

If you can plan what you want to loop before, you can use the 'in' and 'out' buttons to make your own length.. have the track stopped where you want to start, press in, then play and hit out as precise as you can. I need to do this with odd time sig tunes.. I wish they had '12', '24' and '36' buttons there as well (or as an option).

actually what you'd probably want is 8, 16.32 beat options.
that is if you care about phrasing at all :)

I dont plan my sets out unless im doing some sort of DJ comp.
That just takes away from what im really doing behind the decks...

Theres no need for 12 or 24 beat loops either, that f ups phrasing like Rdub said.

I do lots of 1 beat loops on the mix out. and if the BPM changes by even .1 it will give you boots in a dryer very fast. And serato more often than not putting the 1 beat loops out .4 - 3 bpm.... This is unacceptable!!!!!!
Serato sync the dam loops to the beat grid, your current way is Wrong...

3/4 time sig mate? There ARE ALREADY buttons for 1/2/4/8/16/32.

I was loop preset bar buttons that are applicable for TIME SIGNATURES OTHER THAN 4/4!!

12/24 beat loops mess phrasing? LOL

Seriously 1) djing DOES NOT have to be beatmatched
2) polyphony and polyrhythm are 'things'
3) I'm talking about time sigs other than 4/4!!!!
4) do you only play 4/4 lol

'/I was *TALKING* about loop preset bar buttons..' should read.

Try doing 32 bar loop with 3/4 music lol.

do u spin waltzes? LOL
i honestly have never heard a dj play a 3/4 song
well maybe a waltz at a wedding but good luck looping that! :)
just joking. whatever works for you....
i am curios what kind of music u spin.

Yep I play waltzes, rock, live stuff, polka, classical.. I love to mashup any and all genre :)

but mainly jungle/dnb hehe.. with touch of trip-hop, IDM, chiptune, dancehall, reggae etc

For instance, a wicked new Chris Clark IDM / grime tune is 3/4 (I think, I'm not best at counting sigs yet hehe) .. Watchwww.youtube.com .. check this one 5 beat count, also this tune I rap over, which has 3 beat count, Rachel's - Water From The Same Source: Watchwww.youtube.com

There's some awesome IDM and breakcore stuff with odd time sigs.. particularly aphex twin and venetian snares

(argh Chris Clark 5 beat count obviously not 3/4 lol sorry still noob at discerning what exact time sig things are hehe)

Another good one to mix is '3rddegree - reck yur hed', 9 beat count.. can't find this for sale online anymore.. if in US maybe preview here will work: www.amazon.com

i've listen to venetian snares, man i couldn't even think about trying to mess with
looping that stuff, really complicated LOL !
good luck man, sounds interesting!

can serato recognize a time sig like that?

Have fun beat-gridding 3/4 for The Bridge ;-)

R-Dub nah it doesnt recognise any time sigs, just the bpm. It is kind of tough to get the blends right hehe. Been doing these sorta mixes years now, just love polyphony or odd layering of time sigs

Still haven't messed around with the bridge yet much, but I tend to not bother beat gridding things, if they are sloppy I let them be hehe. Or just not play it :)

Not sure that's entirely true. I believe SSL & ITCH expects a 4/4 pattern.

Once you've had a go at grids with the Bridge/Itch, you will notice there is not options for other rhythm patterns... Serato will try to place the first downbeat were it beleives it to be fit...

yeah it does think all is 4/4 in bpm and the grid markers I think, but its not like it makes a 'time sig' tag or anything :) could put in 'grouping' i guess

Argh that sucks re: the Bridge.. i've never touched Itch

I guess you could try to set Ableton to 3/4 then rescan/re-edit your beatgrid in SSL.
Mever tried that. Might work...?

I'm not ever gonna let this Feature request drop to far down the list EVER!!!! so BUMP

As for the bridge, still got mess about but yeah ableton can handle time sigs.. maybe bridged over would work.. but im still so noob with it all..

but im ok without the grey grid markers! Not so important to me, do most by ear or by waveform

I just am going to start tagging in 'grouping' field what time sig things are, if not 4/4 hehe.. saves me mucking around finding a good place to cue the next tune from, if I'm not aware of the time sig and the bars are moving around lol. Total waste of 1/2 a minute in the mix :)

BUMP!!!!!!!

Im gonna keep bumping this until its fixed!!! this is BS why wont serato acknowledge this mistake and fix it!!!!!!

I have acknowledged this previously Code:E, so lets be clear about that at least.

As we have determined, it isn't a mistake, it operates this way by design, however I can understand that in your opinion it is a mistake for it to operate like that and you wish for that to change :)

If this was something that a large number of users requested to change then the likeliness of the change happening will increase. Cheers!

I know that this post has gotten a little off topic, but I am experiencing the same problem. However, all of my loops are pre-made with IN/OUT button or made live with IN/OUT button. I do not use auto loop feature at all, but am having the issue.I am using SSL 2.3.3 (I think 2.3.3. Tomorrow when I am at my studio, I will confirm this and if it is different, I will update this) SL1 / CDJ 2Ks / Snow Leopard. I thought maybe the loops weren't perfect so I erased some and made them even less perfect with the same result. Re created them (perfect) and the loops are on with quantized music as perfect as its gonna get but with the same result. I don't really care about different time signatures within SSL (even though it would be cool for people who would utilize it), but I would like the BPM within loops issue resolved.

CORRECTION!!!!! I am running SSL 2.4.1

Hey Brianred8,

I am little unsure how this same issue would be affecting you when using the manual loop function.

Using the manual loop function you can adjust either the in or out points of the loop to make them precise as you need them to be.

Are you able to perhaps make a video of your issue so I could get a better understanding?

I noticed this the first time I used the HID mode with serato and CDJ2000. I thought I had some setting wrong.. but as you know the whole point of serato is "it just works" lol.

Are you speaking about auto loops? Or manual loops as Brianred8 mentions above?

auto

Its the same issue Martin.

Whether you use the auto loops or manual loops SSL use's its "smart" feature to do slight adjustments to your loop length. We want this to be able to be turned off. You could nail hitting your in and out point of a 4 beat loop but serato will change them to what it thinks it right. even if it is right that the loop will sound that slight bit more seamless its a mute point, because no matter how seamless that loop is if its not the same BPM as the track thats playing your fucked. It is FAR more important that loop lengths be at the BPM of the track so you can beat match them in or out with the next or last track playing!

Ok sorry if it seems like I am misunderstanding the situation, although I think I understand it in theory.

Are you able to make a video as you mentioned earlier? It would be great for me to see the issue first hand to just make sure I am not making any incorrect assumptions.

It would especially great if you could show this issue happening with both AUTO and MANUAL loops too :)

This would work fine is it quantized to the other deck, but it doesnt ;-)

Meaning some sort of sync would have to be involved maybe? Do any of you guys use ITCH with the beat grids? Is it any difference to what we are talking about with Scratch Live?

What about Scratch Live with beat grids when using The Bridge?

Don't use the "S" word! you'll start a riot!

But.. in the sync discussion (argument) it was suggested that instead of sync... they only added live loop/sample quantize.. then the whiny anti-sync guys can stop crying coz you will still have to beatmatch the tracks, with only the samples and loops "sticking" to the underlying track lol.

I thought it sounded like a good idea for evolving serato scratch without loosing its one unique feature and analogue feeling.

... and as for beatgrids in any DJ program... they are only 85% accurate at best, and manual adjustment control usually needed to make it tight anyway.

Haha, I was just making the comparison to ITCH, which has a sync feature, and utilizes beatgrids.

So if you had beat grids in Scratch Live, that were accurate, would the loops be more accurate?

.. computers in any DJ program are far from perfect. loop "snapping" and beat grids are kinda the same thing.
Those of us used to the perfection of analogue gear (turntables) find it hard to tolerate the lack of accuracy with these meat matching programs...
Even though the TEMPO matching is pretty accurate in these programs... the timing of the beat is difficult for a computer to calculate because of reverbs and delays in the music....

Sometimes music technology just cant compare to the amazing human ear.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's the way loops should be done. Loops should be based on the tracks BPM. And there is no reason loops can't be exact. The BPM detection ins SSL is pretty bang on so if ever loops engaged at said BPM everything would be great. I just can't wrap my head around why you (serato) would program them any other way. there is no useful reason to have it work the way it does now.

So Code:E, have you tried enabling beat grids in Scratch Live by enabling The Bridge to see if it will help?

Any luck with doing that video?

I can understand what you are saying about the auto loops for sure, but I still can't see how you wouldn't be able to perfect a loop by manually adjusting it. Sorry if I am missing the point, but a video would sure be helpful :)

Yes i have, I have been using the Bridge since the day it was released.

You can adjust it. But when I DJ I can (usually when playing hip hop) play up to 3-5 songs a min. Loops need to be perfect the instant i engaged them. There is no time to fix them on the fly. Also a 1 beat loops at 100 bpm or 1/2 beat at 70bpm take only a couple of loops to be so far out its unfix able and 1/2 beat loops over several times in the time it would take to fix it.

I understand, manual adjustments are not an option with your speed of mixing.

I have double checked when The Bridge is enabled and even with a beat grid, creating a loop does not acknowledge the grid. This is different to the way ITCH works, where the auto loops are created by being based on the beat grid of that file.

So you are correct, and its pointless of me to suggest having the The Bridge enabled when it does not resolve the issue.

After discussing this with a colleague I have realized there are two things to consider about this issue:

1. Auto Looping in Scratch Live was a feature brought in before The Bridge, before ITCH and before any beat grids existed. The way it does this has not changed since its implementation.

2. ITCH software although similar in features, achieves many of the same things that Scratch Live does, but in different ways. From a user perspective, we are trying to slowly work on any inconsistencies between the two programs, as things like that can potentially affect a user who switches between both programs regularly.

After realizing the above, I think that this issue CAN be considered as a bug, and I will create a report.

What I would really appreciate from you Code:E is either of two things:

1. You make a clear video showing this issue happening and how it affects keeping two songs in the mix.

2. You provide me with two particular files where this issue easily happens and give me clear instructions on how to recreate the issue.

Either of the above will help a lot when it comes time for a developer to review the bug report.

Let me know if you feel comfortable doing either, I would be very grateful if you could, thanks! :)

=o) I am totally WooT!! =o) glad its being address...

+ 100000000

Martin C I will post a video since you asked so nicely it will just take me a few days. I'm playing this weekend and dont feel like setting everything up just to shoot a short video then take it all down again for the night.

+1

+1

nice one.. thanks guys!

Its been a few days ;) can you post a video? This will speed up the time Serato needs to fix it.

The Video you asked for martin it uploading now.

youtu.be

Can you please confirm that this bug has been seen by the Tech guys who do the programming. And I know this is a long shot but I would love to know if they plan on fixing this in the next update to serato? How long till we can expect an update.

If they don't plan on fixing this ASAP, I ask why not. This is a major bug I think I have clearly demonstrated that it needs to be fixed.

If you need more examples let me know.

Really appreciate that Code:E its helped a lot.

I would like to know if others out there experience this, but more importantly, whether they have experienced it in ITCH or Serato DJ as well.

From my testing so far, it seems like its only a Scratch Live problem. I can demonstrate Scratch Lives disadvantage more clearly if I can prove it doesn't happen in ITCH or Serato DJ. That means we have the capabilities to do it better, we just have to make that part of the code in Scratch Live more like it is in ITCH or Serato DJ.

Thanks again everyone :)

Scratch Live recent versions, definitely happening for me. I put a cue point, I get to the drop point.. which for me is right on the beat.

But some tracks, the autoloop seems to want to not 'stick' to the cue point.. instead it makes some assumption of where the loop should be.. which can be any amount of ms off the actual desired start point..

so I'm glad this is being addressed :)

Oh yes I noticed this too. This auto loop adjustment needs to be addressed ASAP!

Bump..... Serato mods any word on a fix for this issue coming soon?

Sorry, I don't have any new information to announce right now unfortunately!

Why don't autoloops start at the point when the auto loop button is pressed? On my CDJ 900 everytime I use the autoloops say starting with 8 then when I push 4 I have to guess the adjustment because the "Smart Loop" doesn't start where I pressed the button. So I never have been able to cut loops in 1/2 and stay on beat. So I generally don't do loop cutting since it mostly always gets off beat and always requires adjustment (usually by pressing the button until beat markers line up). I believe that is similar to what Code:E is talking about. I wish loop cutting was as easy as using the buttons on cdj 900. also would be nice to be able to cut a manual loop.

Yep this issue is persistent. It is really irking me that you guys aren't getting onto this quicker.

It's really bad.

I only mostly use 32 bar loops for intro and 2nd drop intros etc, and I want them to start at EXACTLY where my cue points are. The only way is to manually select a loop but that takes a bunch of work to find out exactly where 32 bars is ending, setting a cue point and slowly running through the area to make sure you get it tight. It's messy as **** tho.

So I'm only using the loops, mostly because of this issue, for intro beat mix cue. And it really annoys me when it loops somewhere other than the start of the downbeat.

Not to mention, some tracks downbeats have a small bit of the wave form before the hit, say on a kick drum or something. Zoomed in, in a wave editor looking really closely (what i do beat matching breaks in Ableton for instance), sometimes I want the loop to begin where the hit is biggest, not at the start of the sound where the sound is beginning the attack.

This is the issue here with the loops. If Scratch Live can't detect it right (like when jungle choppage at 160-175bpm comes up as 105-120bpm because it can't figure out the downbeats), it likes to either set the loop before or after the actual cue point you want, depending on where it decides the downbeat is.. particularly for music on live instruments with slightly changing tempos etc.. it never really gets it right. I would like an option..

it's easy to do..

In setup.. tickbox dialog box.. 'loop length based on bpm only' or something like that. Basically, a auto length loop setting that preserves the cue points and bpm, rather than a loop detection that looks at the waveform visually and decides from that where to start a loop.

This is particularly messy when it starts late, and the beginning of the next bar kick downbeat begins for some 50-150ms, then back to the 50-150ms 'late' start to the loop. Equally, if the loop is starting too early, you get the tail of the bar before the loop every loop, as well as not completing the end of the final bar in the loop fully.

I guess not enough people play around so much with this to notice as much as the few posting here, or haven't thought enough to complain..

PLEASE fix this.. it's one of the biggest issues in my personal use of the software.

Actually now I think about it, it does the same for manual too. Not matter how hard you try, sometimes it wants to 'snap' to its own idea of a downbeat.

I'd forgotten this because of how hard it is to do manual loops quickly, but when trying for some of the odder time sig tunes I have, it still wouldn't let me get exactly on the downbeat for really hectic noisey stuff like 200+bpm IDM infused acidy/glitchy breakcore, where there is hardly any gap inbetween beats or half/quarter beats.

So I completely forgot how it didn't work until now, because it was so infuriating I went to such lengths just to be disappointed again.

I can make a video for you, with some sort of screen capture software I suppose. I've never done that before but I will figure it out. I have a lot of work to do for the coming months but if the issue is still present in some months or a year, I will definitely make this video for you if that will really help.

Otherwise I'm sure you can find this issue yourselves.. if you want, could always submit a 'problem' audio file (I think you have some system for this?).. preferably an mp3, so could include the cue and loop point already set 'incorrectly' as provided by Scratch Live.

Anyone can test this too, using the offline player.

That's awesome there is a way to do it. But yeah I'm in the same boat. I also don't have the Bridge yet so it would be a costly investment to 'fix' Serato's looping feature.

Hey Serato guys BUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Any word on this you still didnt fix it in 2.5 and that a big piss off. Its clearly functioning incorrectly.

There is some big work hopefully going into HID mode very soon, I will do my best to make some noise about this and see if it can be resolved too.

Once again, I am sorry there isn't anything solid to announce but please remain patient, you will get results eventually :)

I am having this problem too. Just found this thread today. I will be mixing some 128 ish tunes and when I set a loop the bpm changes. I do not understand why. Hopefully this will be addressed soon, because it becomes quite a pain when the mix suddenly goes off and you're unaware why. Also, I know that the "transifier" alt t or alt g doesn't kick in when you actually turn it on. I know it's an easter egg but why does it jump back and start the loop wherever it desired?

Its not a HID issue Martin. I am setting my loops with a MPD32 just sending midi data.

Sorry, not sure what I was thinking exactly mentioning HID mode. However, it is true some work is going on with that very soon.

As for the the looping problem, I think we may be able to provide you guys a solution for it also!

OK here is some more proof for you. It happens ALL the time.

Furthermore since around 2.1-2.2 versions offline mode crashes ALL the time. I'll do a desktop capture at some point to show how many times it crashes for me, doing simple things like cue points, loading tracks etc. The worst is searching as soon as the program loads. tune comes up. crates haven't finished loading. drag track from search to offline player. INSTANT CRASH EVERY TIME.

Anyway back on topic, here's that new proof.

FIX the bloody spastic loops that decide where they want to go themselves.. ala - i.imgur.com

And sorry you said 'may be able to', what does this mean, will you actually fix it, or are you saying you have a fix already you haven't provided??

Going mental with this and the constant crash-athon.

Realised sometimes slow analysis is due to hdd thrashing from other programs.. however, the constant crashing is NOT my fault but buggy software.

The constant remarks of how important 'stability' are for you guys is really irking me considering the complete opposite is occuring in reality. Please stop adding features until you fix what you've already made.

I'm also still looking for a way to use 3-4 deck horizontal when only playing deck 1 & 3 or deck 1 & 4. It's REALLY hard to beatmatch visually with those huge gaps.

These and other issues have been around such a long time. I'm getting totally frustrated at the lack of fixes. I will begin to soon (as I have time) bombard the multiple issues to your help area. Unless of course you can patch them out before I get around to that. But considering how long it's been for some of these reports (and the way it seems answers from you guys are at the beginning reluctant to even confirm the issue)...

This thread is over 1.5 years old now... urgh.

It's reasons like this I cringe every update and try to avoid posting on these forums the past years, considering I don't feel like I'm getting much help to resolve these persistant and long-term issues..

New products, features and removal of old features concerns me more than anything because STILL these big issues are unresolved. You might not consider them big, but I honestly don't use many of the new features of SSL. You might want to get the ORIGINAL features of SSL working 99.99%-100% properly before you stack heaps of new crap on.

I'm so worried about your changes, considering you are adding auto sync and you can't even get loops right.

I work HARD to place my cues and loops in the right spots. STOP messing with my work.

It has also been 2 months since 'possible' fix suggested. Not much help really here...

Ok I've made a help support thread for this, considering it's NOT a feature suggestion but rather a serious bug that has never been squashed.

serato.com

Please chime in here with your similar issues (considering this is global software issue and NOT enduser problem) and hopefully by 2024 we might get a fix.

Here's some more

i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com

happens literally every few tracks.

considering SSL is dead. I would bet they will never be fixing it. I really hope the same issue does not persist with Serato DJ.

I got an answer on my other thread :)

'
Zach S 4:17 AM - 15 October, 2013
Do you know you can adjust the loop IN/OUT points by clicking IN (if you want to adjust the in point) or OUT (if you want to adjust the out point) and using the left/right arrow keys?
'

It works :)

not great for 'on the fly' loops while mixing live but at least now can plan loops in advance and get them in the right spots..

The beatgrids in SDJ should fix this better I think too..

ot call that working. Its not working at all. The whole point of an auto loop is to loop on the fly quickly and easily. This is far from fixed.

Assumption make and ass out of u and me.

Hey ninjagaijin,

It sounds like you having some serious problems all round, and you should continue to work with the staff that are helping you in your help requests. If you haven't already made a help request, then I suggest that you do.

@ Code:E, have you tried downloading Serato DJ to use in the offline player and have beatgrids? Does this fix your issue or no?

Not yet.... But without a CDJ2000's plugged in in HID I wont be able to confirm that the loops are not perfect. Unless SDJ gives you an updated BPM somewhere that sell you the BPM of the loop. I was waiting until 1.6 beta come out so I can try it with my SL and CDJ's. I wouldnt have to wait if I could get on the private beta list ;)

The public beta won't be far off. You could try downloading the offline playing and just messing around with the loop controls and keyboard shortcuts in there.

Try putting loops on a song and you will find the loops snap to the beatgrid. If this isn't accurate, then you can adjust the beatgrid and loops should follow where the beatgrids go.

The CDJ2000 looping controls are basically mapped to some of the same looping controls in the interface, so you should get a pretty accurate representation of what to expect.

@Serato @MartinC - PLEASE TELL ME YOU HAVE AN UPDATE ON THIS OR A WAY TO SWITCH THIS EXREMELY ANNOYING FEATURE OFF!!! :(

or any got any workarounds??!

Thanks.

Has it been removed from Serato DJ?

What are you guys asking exactly? Have you simply just tried Serato DJ?

No I have not used it. I'm waiting for the beta to be over. I just dont have time to be beta testing this time around. I want to know if the looping has been fixed in Serato DJ.

I mentioned this a few posts up. Serato DJ loops will respect your beatgrids. If your beatgrids are accurate, then your looping will be accurate.

If you don't have beatgrids then it will snap to transients, or as you call it "dumb looping".

From what I can tell, looping has been fixed. But I really think its best you just try Serato DJ for ten minutes to find out.

OR you could just read the forum for another ten minutes.. up to you :)

I spend hours on here :p

Its not good for my health.

Still crash SDJ 1.6 'stable' with my 2.5TB library every time I open it

On my laptop, SDJ runs ok but there are some odd issues that will send me back to SSL now.

My SSL 2.5 still crashes a lot. Offline mode.

Before my crates all load up, if I search / drag tune from library / try to play something, it almost ALWAYS crashes. It crashes randomly with the search and dragging tracks too, in a few hundred ms of trying to drag after searching.. I do type fast but I don't think that should be a problem.

It's good I can move those loops around at least now. But yeah useless for live work. I'll see if it works in SDJ, when SDJ works.

Really upset with this 'stable' version with so many huge issues..

I am very sad for Serato and worried about its future that you release this garbage 'RC' & 'stable' of major update.

And 'pitch n time' more than +/-50% pitch shift is not worth paying $30 I think?

Traktor has this for free?

Hi ninjagaijin,

I strongly recommend you create a help request: serato.com so someone from our Support Team can assist you with some of these issues.

Martin, even in simple sync?

Smart Sync OR Simple Sync, if you simply have "snap to beatgrid enabled" which makes your beatgrids visible, the loops should respect the beatgrids.