Software help archive

A read-only archive of old serato.com help threads.

Crates sorting always different

Product
Scratch Live
Version
2.3.3
Hardware
Rane SL1
Computer
PC
OS
Platform
-
pueblofunky 7:12 AM - 22 December, 2011
Hi,

I've always have troubles with the sorting order of the (smart) crates.

Every time I connect (switch) my external hard disc (includes all music files) between my PC at home, my PC at work, my DJ laptop - the sorting order is different.

Currently on my PC at work the file "neworder.pref" contains all smart crates (I only have this at the moment) in the order I want. The file (modifed time stamp) is from yesterday.

The file "neworder.pref" on my external hard disc has a newer modified time stamp (because I've used at home last night) and ONLY includes the smart crates which are NOT empty!

I've just started Serato (2.3.3 but same with older versions) on my PC at work - external hard disc connected - and the wrong order of the smart crates will be shown: The empty smart crates at the top, the others - ordered by the (newer) "neworder.pref" from the hard disc below. > Not that what I want.

I've manually fixed the order and exit.

The files "neworder.pref" will be written back to my PC and also on my hard disc. The file on my hard disc does not contain the smart crates which are empty (due the current query logic).

After re-starting Serato the correct and fixed order will be shown (due the newer modified time stamp? on pc as second 17, on external hard disc has second 16 ?).

When I go home and connect the hard disc at home I have the same problem again and again and again. > This is no solution and I'm not really happy.

There is a "logical bug" in Serato:

1. You do not store smart crates on external hard disc (directory "SmartCrates") - only normal crates (directory "Subcrates").

I understand this and it is logical.

SO: You should not store smart crates in the file "neworder.pref" files on the external hard disc when you do not store the smart crates itself (directory) on the external hard disc!

2. The order of the crates should be always taken (prefered) from the PC - not from the external hard disc.

> At first read neworder.pref from the PC (includes crates + smart crates) and then from the external hard disc(s) (order by timestamp?) and "insert/add" crates which were not on the PC.

This would solve the problem.

Any other idea or concept?
Rane, Support
Chad S. 4:54 PM - 22 December, 2011
Excellent input. I haven't seen many people requesting to do what you have but I understand the steps you are taking to get there.
pueblofunky 8:06 AM - 23 December, 2011
Thanks Chad S. :-)

Please forward this to Serato Development Team for the next release. :-)

1. Bug:

Do not store "SmartCrates" in the file "neworder.pref" on external hard discs when you do not store the SmartCrates itself (subdirectory "SmartCrates") on the same external hard disc! Consistency + (Referential) Integrity!

> The full correct order should be only stored on the current PC.


2. Recommended to avoid problems:

Always read the file "neworder.pref" from PC at first and use this order. After that read all "neworder.pref" from external hard discs, sorted by modified timestamp, and "merge" the names with the current list in memory - inserted (added) crates should be added at the bottom.


3. Feature Request

Maybe some people want to have the crates ordered alphabetically.

Ideas:
3a. You could add an option in the preferences ("Always order my crates alphabetically").
3b. A button anywhere to order the crates alphabetically.


4. Bug:

When I create a crate/smart crate - you create the crate files itself (or at least with an entry) - but you don't re-write the corresponding file "neworder.pref" at the same time:

> Consistency + (Referential) Integrity!

You must write "neworder.pref" back (PC/external hard disc) at same time when you create a crate file in the directories "Subcrates" or "SmartCrates" on same unit (PC/external hard disc)!


I hope this helps to avoid problems in the future,

Will now read your latest article "Moving your library and crates to a new computer or hard drive".


Merry X-Mas,
Rane, Support
Chad S. 4:47 PM - 28 December, 2011
Will do :)

Have a happy New Year!
10:00 PM, 20 Feb 2012
This help request has been closed due to inactivity.
pueblofunky 10:33 PM - 20 February, 2012
Waiting for fix. ;-)
pueblofunky 8:45 PM - 8 May, 2012
Waiting for fix. ;-)
pueblofunky 9:14 PM - 8 May, 2012
Also read this:

serato.com

If a My Music folder on the DJ laptop is not available - because I'm using the laptop from my company and the "User Home" is on a drive in the company network and not available in the club of course ;-) - I don't have the correct settings + crates.

Please find a solution for this too!

Maybe to start SSL with a parameter to specify the My Music folder to use? (which would be on the laptop C: drive or my external music hard disc).

Thx
pueblofunky 7:48 AM - 11 May, 2012
Work-around:

1. Prepare the crates
2. Close SSL
3. Copy from the "My Music" home folder e.g. "C:\Users\xxx\Music\_Serato_\" these files

SmartCrates\*
neworder.pref
window.pref

to an own backup folder.

4. Before you start SSL copy (restore) the files.

You can also copy these files on your external hard disc and then copy them on your dj laptop (I prepare all at home on my PC).

You might delete all files in the SmartCrates folder before you restore to avoid unwanted smart scrates!

If you are using a company PC (as I do currently) the "User Home" (+ "My Music") might be on a network drive. If you are not connected to your company (e.g. in the club) then you have a problem and no access to these files.

As a 2nd work around for this you should copy+paste all tracks of every smart crate into a normal crate. Columns and order have to be done manually.

Serato should allow a parameter during the program start to specify the "My Home" directory or make an option in the preferences/settings.

The file "neworder.pref" contains all crates and the order of them.
The file "window.pref" contains all columns and the order of them.
Rane, Support
Chad S. 7:37 PM - 17 May, 2012
I've moved this back to the area you were getting help in before. Serato should be by shortly. Thank you for including your additional steps and findings.
Serato, Support
Martin C 12:02 AM - 23 May, 2012
Hi pueblofunky,

Sorry if I have misunderstood, but is this issue mainly due to the issue that the "neworder.pref" file is stored on your internal hard drive and not the external drive?
pueblofunky 7:18 AM - 23 May, 2012
No.

My problem (and solution) is related to all the people who have problems with always unordered crates (normal + smart) when using multiple external hard discs on more than one PC (connected directly and not all are connected at the same time!).

One main problem is that the file neworder.pref on an external hard disc contains the smart crates although smart crates are not stored on external hard discs: Consistency + (Referential) Integrity!

When I connect on another PC (where the smart crates are not defined!) - they are not there. When you leave SSL, neworder.pref will be written back without the smart crates.

=> You should not store the smart crates in the file neworder.pref on external hard discs. This is a bug and should be fixed.

=> You should also not store normal crates in the file neworder.pref on external hard discs when there are no normal crates (sub crates) stored on the external hard disc.

Just yet I'm a little bit confused because I created a normal crate with a music file on another 3rd drive and quit SSL 24214. The file neworder.pref only contains the normal crate (as it should be). The file neworder.pref on my other external hard disc also contains the smart crates ... .

I would suggeste the following:

Do not change the logic within this release. I'll completely re-test all possibilities and what really happens finally - all from scratch and a step-by-step for a re-test for you - and after that a solution to avoid the known problems.

Before I want to write down a solution yet I want to analyze some (not tested) cases (new problem above just happend).

I hope this is ok for you - sorry.

I'll try to do this today/tonight.

Robert
Serato, Support
Martin C 5:42 AM - 24 May, 2012
Ok cheers, I definitely understand what you mean here:

Quote:
=> You should not store the smart crates in the file neworder.pref on external hard discs. This is a bug and should be fixed.


Although I don't know if I fully understand this:

Quote:
=> You should also not store normal crates in the file neworder.pref on external hard discs when there are no normal crates (sub crates) stored on the external hard disc.


Definitely would appreciate your step by steps, and especially if you could explain the above in a different way, sorry if I am little slow!

Thanks Robert :)
pueblofunky 5:46 AM - 24 May, 2012
I've started the first (long) analyzes yesterday - step by step. ;-)

At first only normal crates. I've found some little issues but more details will follow in a long attached .txt file. ;-)
Serato, Support
Martin C 7:22 AM - 24 May, 2012
Cheers, look forward to checking it out!
8:00 AM, 7 Jun 2012
This help request has been closed due to inactivity.
pueblofunky 9:52 PM - 25 June, 2012
Hi,

sorry for the long delay.

The attached files (after this comment) include the analyzes regarding normal crates and a solution & bug fix.

The same regarding smart crates will follow.

I hope this helps to solve some problems which users have reported here for ages. ;-)
9:53 PM, 25 Jun 2012
pueblofunky attached a file: SSL24214_Analyze.txt
Download· Permalink
9:54 PM, 25 Jun 2012
pueblofunky attached a file: SSL24214_Solution.txt
Download· Permalink
pueblofunky 9:55 PM - 25 June, 2012
Taken from SSL24214_Solution.txt:

Empty crate problem (Deletion, etc.)

If a crate will be created by the user an empty crate file should be always created in the MyMusic folder.

If an user exits SSL the crate and the crate structure will not be lost or destroyed. This makes a lot of people happy!

If a crate on an external hard disc becomes empty, the empty crate must be created in the MyMusic folder. Also no lost, etc.

If an empty crate will be found on an external hard disc (by accident) the crate should be created in the MyMusic folder.

A crate must be only deleted if an user wants that by pressing CTRL+DELETE.
pueblofunky 9:56 PM - 25 June, 2012
Taken from SSL24214_Solution.txt

Always write/update the file "neworder.pref" whenever a .crate file will be created, deleted or updated on the same hard disc. Consistency!
pueblofunky 9:58 PM - 25 June, 2012
The "neworder.pref" files will be always opened in the order by the drive letter which destroyes the order of the crates!

Due disconnecting & re-conneting hard discs the order of the crates always changes. :-(

Solution 1:

Add an option "Sort crates by name" (Yes/No). If yes - always sort the crates by name (also subcrates within crates).

As also used in our company to store sub directories in a specific order in a directory:

The user can use a numbered naming logic for the crates names:

10 Pop
20 Disco
30 House
31 House (New)
32 House (Hits)
40 R'n'B

It doesn't matter which hard discs are enabled. The order is always correct.

I can remember some users in the forum are using this kind of logic!
Serato, Support
Martin C 1:47 AM - 29 June, 2012
Hey pueblofunky,

I finally had a chance to look through your documents, and I appreciate the work you have put in here.

I do believe that this issue could be resolved, but I couldn't confidently say when it will be worked.

I have logged a bug regarding this issue explaining the steps taken to reproduce this issue, and have linked to this thread so that a developer can consider the suggestions you have made to resolve this.

Thanks :)
pueblofunky 8:52 PM - 28 October, 2012
Hi,

in June I've analyzed and presented a solution about the correct ordering of normal crates.

I want to know if this is still on your list and a fix could be presented soon.

If (really) yes, I will analyze and present a solution for the correct ordering of smart crates.

It's driving me nuts when I switch my hard disc between my home and work PC EVERY day and I get a different order of my crates.

Thanks a lot!
nik39 9:03 PM - 28 October, 2012
Not that it would matter.. but I'd like to see a possible solution.

I spend a whole day on merging my library into one "drive", by using trickery symbolic links etc. :( Pain!
pueblofunky 9:26 PM - 28 October, 2012
@nik39: I've attached the analyzes and solutions regarding normal crates above and written summary solutions as comments below the comment with the attached files.

Can YOU download it? If not I can give you another download link (I can post it here).

Regarding smart crates I would do it with the same quality but there are other bugs (and solutions required).
nik39 9:32 PM - 28 October, 2012
I can't download it :( if you could PM me the linke, that would be nice :)
pueblofunky 9:55 PM - 28 October, 2012
Quote:
I can't download it :( if you could PM me the linke, that would be nice :)


Done.

I'm sure it takes some time to follow.

The consistency bugs should/must be fixed (writing neworder.pref file, etc.).

The only one solution to resolve all problems is:

- if users want not be confused with multiple external hard discs add an option in the preferences: Sort by crate names

- order the crates by names on the fly

- Users might use numeric values at the beginning of a crate name to keep the sort order.
Serato, Support
Martin C 6:14 AM - 29 October, 2012
Hey Pueblofunky,

I can assure improvements in this area haven't slipped off the radar, but I couldn't say when we would exactly be working on this type of thing.

I will be documenting your suggestions so that when an appropriate time comes to develop this area further, your ideas and solutions will be considered.

I am sorry that I cannot give you any further answer than that.

Nik39, I should have made the files accessible if you still need them.

Cheers!
8:02 AM, 12 Nov 2012
This help request has been closed due to inactivity.