update 1111 all good fixes (other than pitch drift)

ftin 11:05 AM - 28 August, 2004

Just got the update and all seems good (nice job on the album art issue) but....

The pitch drifts .4% every second back and forth!
for instance if you put it at 0 it goes from -0.2% to +0.2 evry second or so.This does not do this all the time it just changes pitch randomly (up to .6%).

To test it i put the same track on both sides of ssl one in internal mode and one in absolute mode and played them side by side.Other than playing slower and drifting out (just like it does with pitch pompensation off) it fazes in and out, like you would imagine it would moving the pitch up and down.

I am using the correct side of the record and almost never used ortofon needles (spare pair) and buffer size of 10.

It seems to me that the compensation thing hasn't really worked.

So when are the new records out? or are they allready out cause i just wanna mix not keep on having to come back here to see how things are going, plus i really dont care about spending a few extra quid to solve this issue.

nik39 11:46 AM - 28 August, 2004

ftin, I observed the same pitch fluctuations, not pitch drifting.

dam 12:35 PM - 28 August, 2004

I'm also experiencing this problem, even with the quartz lock on my technics.
If I put the record on side B at 45rpm, the pitch variation is a lot, lot less, sometimes not at all so you could try that and see how it goes?

nik39 1:41 PM - 28 August, 2004

Yes, same here, side b is relativley stable at the beginning but gets worse as it goes to the end.

45rpm will reduce the relative fluct's as your raising the speed. If the speed is 33333(factor 1000) rpm, then you will get pitch fluct reduced by a factor of 1000... Hm that sounds strange while I am writing and thinkin about it. Am I missing anything?

Couin 2:40 PM - 28 August, 2004

On my first test of 1111, I'had map a mp3 on ABS mode for left deck , and int mode for right deck and I launch them !
To sync them , I must little pitch up my tt (with 10mintes side)but it's more stable than before correction.
15 minutes side is fine for me, no need pitch up.
I have -0,2 / +0,2% oscillations too.
Good work guys ! SSL defenitivly kick FS hihihi !!!

yuri 7:50 PM - 28 August, 2004

using the 10 min side at 33rpm Im getting the fluc. also :/

ftin 11:36 PM - 28 August, 2004

This...

Quote:

To sync them , I must little pitch up my tt (with 10mintes side)

This...

Quote:

I have -0,2 / +0,2% oscillations too.

Then this...

Quote:

Good work guys ! SSL defenitivly kick FS hihihi !!!

EH! am i missing something. I hope your being sarcastic and i just miss understood.

Any way does any one know if the new records are out or coming out soon or if there will even be any new ones?

nik39 11:54 PM - 28 August, 2004

ftin, good question. Maybe others dont experience this problems we do... But its very strange, that some see this pitch flucts, and other dont.

G-man NYC 12:37 AM - 29 August, 2004

I had the same problem last night with the .4% fluctuations. I could see the peaks on each record alternating lead position so my mixes seemed a bit sloppy.

This side A vs. B issue is strange... are you not supposed to use side B with drift compensation selected?

Also, I usually use Shure m44's but last night I tried my backup stanton 680hp's and they seemed to fluctuate less than the Shure's... I have no idea why.

ftin 12:55 AM - 29 August, 2004

mmmm... It makes me wonder if everyone is looking.

Any way i just tried out the B side (never used it before) and oh my god it actually works.I did a more real to life test this time, instead of 1 deck in int- mode and 1 in abs- mode i put both in abs- mode both with the same track but 1 with a 6 minute silence at the beggining so the needles wouldn't be in the same place.I had the tracks fazing for up to 4 minutes which is pretty dam good.

But! there is a slight problem with the B side:

The first one third of the record is fine (it stays at 0.0) but when into the second 5 mins part the pitch starts to fluctuate from 0.0 to 0.1 every turn of the record. Then in the third part it just varies all over the place, not a massive amount but with this sorted things will be looking pretty sweet.

(for the B side any way lol)

G-man NYC 1:24 AM - 29 August, 2004

ftin,

I don't have my turntables with me so I can't do any tests unfortunately... did you try this same test with drift compensation turned off?

eder 3:51 AM - 29 August, 2004

yeah....last night for some reason, i was gettin up to 34-40% NEGATIVE pitch fluctuation one deck A....i had to restart my system for it to go back to normal...
eder

dam 7:29 AM - 29 August, 2004

Quote:

The first one third of the record is fine (it stays at 0.0) but when into the second 5 mins part the pitch starts to fluctuate from 0.0 to 0.1 every turn of the record. Then in the third part it just varies all over the place, quote]

That's exactly the same as mine, at least SSL is usable now though, it was a nightmare with the drifting but I can def work with it with this small fluctuation

Couin 9:37 AM - 29 August, 2004

What I wanted to say :
I have fluctuation -0,2/+0,2% on side A, and I must pitch up about +0,3% my mk2 if I want to sync with other deck in int mode @0% pitch, BUT I cant mix now without always touching the vinyl to keep sync (like before compensation)
Side B is ok for me, no fluct , and stay sync with mk2 locked on 0% pitch.

Corection is very effective :
For exemple, put yor needle far of the start of the vinyl , and when playing, go to setup screen and switch on/off/on/off ect , the compensation option, you'll see the shift.
In 2 words :
Before correction : Mix was difficult
After correction : Mix is easy
That is the reason for wich I say "Good work guys"

ftin 2:14 PM - 29 August, 2004

@ Couin: 1 side still has a slight problem and the other is still as crap as before. You call that good work? I hope they dont do a GOOD job with the next update.

@ dam: I completely agree, i have no problem mixing now on the B side, which is sweet. But there is no harm in solving the problem completely (at least then that would shut me up lol).

Any one from serato gonna make any comments then? Can you see this problem we are having?

Couin 2:22 PM - 29 August, 2004

ftin :
I know my english is poor (I'm french) but I say good work because now , I can mix correctly.
Speeds are stable now.

;-)
Couin !

ftin 2:29 PM - 29 August, 2004

I completely agree with you, i just dont think it was a good update thats all. ;)

Your english is fine by the way.

Couin 2:31 PM - 29 August, 2004

Thanks ftin ;-)
I think the update is
- good for stable speed
- not super good because 0% is not @ 0%

ftin 3:18 PM - 29 August, 2004

exactly Couin.

I will ask again so it isn't buried amogst our conversation:

Any one from serato gonna make any comments then? Can you see this problem we are having?

tashafa 3:49 PM - 29 August, 2004

did u guys click on the label that says A (when drift compenstation is on) so it changes to B?

tashafa 3:52 PM - 29 August, 2004

(cont.)....when using the 10minute side?

nik39 3:53 PM - 29 August, 2004

I did.

Couin 4:04 PM - 29 August, 2004

I verified , compensation is on , and A is written on the label when playing 10 minutes side.

I don't know who can I write it, but, it is not a problem of pitch variation during mix, like before compensation); it's stable (can keep sync with an other song during a mix, not specialy @0% pitch)
But when I lock my tt @0%, the song play a little slowly (about 0,2 or 0,3 % I think) but stable.
If I want to sync with the other deck wich is in int mode, I must little up my mk2 pitch to keep sync, and it is stable after, ... no need to touch vinyl to keep sync.
You see ?

nik39 4:34 PM - 29 August, 2004

Hm, so youre saying one turntable does not run really at 0.0% even when the pitch slider is set to 0.0%? What turntable is that, does it have a quartz lock mode?

BTW, it doesnt give me a good feeling if I know that the pitch is corrected in each revolution [BTW. funny whil I am writing I am hearing that word "revolution" coming again and again out of my speakers... I am listening to DJ Revolution The Revolution Ft Iriscience Dilated Peoples), funny coincidence :) ] but does not really keep stable. Its like in each revolution you recognize towards the end of each revolution "Oh I am a bit offset, I need to speed up/down a bit to catch up with the signal". Doesnt give me a good feeling. I have one record where the hole was not centered in the middle, so the pitch wobbles around.... sounds awful, though its not really noticable but its a more subtile thing, a pitch wobbling of about 0.3% (range -0.3 to +0.3) is too much IMHO.

tashafa 5:14 PM - 29 August, 2004

i dont think it works like that... i think the new software says ..oh am at this point of the 10minute side of the noisemap, i need to add 0.2% to the pitch to compensate for the PD issue.. i get (using the label on the screen) 0.0% locked most of the time with some flux. -0.2 to +0.1 (which i think could be attributed to the wornout record/warped record/dust on needles..etc)

nik39 5:17 PM - 29 August, 2004

tashafa, I dont think it has a map which compensates for every control signal frame, but we're both guessing here. If it has a correction for each signal frame then the map needs to be redone/corrected. You know what would be cool? The possibilty to "calibrate" that correction map by yourself :)

Steve W 8:21 PM - 29 August, 2004

The pitch correction maps are sampled at a frequency of 10Hz @ 33RPM, ie the pitch is corrected 18 times per revolution. There is a corresponding correction mapping from noise map position to physical position on the vinyl, and the two are interpolated and cross referenced 1000 times per second.

Quote:

when I lock my tt @0%, the song play a little slowly (about 0,2 or 0,3 % I think) but stable

Couin, if Scratch LIVE was off by 0.25% then by the end of the 15 minute side it would have drifted from the vinyl by 900 x 0.25 / 100 = 2.25 seconds @ 33rpm, or 1 1/4 revolutions. If you compare the on-screen marker with a mark on your record, do they drift apart by a whole revolution from the beginning of the record to the end?

diego vega 5:52 AM - 30 August, 2004

I have to agree, the drift has been fixed a bit but not completely.
Just to clarify I did make sure the letter changed to A or B depending on the side I was using.

In my experience the 15 min side at 45 rpm is very usable (+/- .1 usually or .2 at times), much better than before, good work on that. The 10 minutes side is not so good, it still has some drift (usually +/- .2 or .3). Also if you use any side at 33rpm the drift gets worse for some reason... so the 33rpm mode and the 10 min side are still unusable for me (I mix house so I do long 1-2 min mixes) Another point is that if you use the 15 min at 45 rpm and switch the live track to internal mode and use the other one in absolute there is almost no apparent drift. That's what I have found as the best solution to mix without almost no drift.

What do you guys think?

Steve W 5:59 AM - 30 August, 2004

If the pitch display is varying +/- some number within each revolution, then that is "wow", rather than drift. If you ignore the readouts, are you actually experiencing a loss of sync during your mixes?

Couin 7:45 AM - 30 August, 2004

Dear Steve,

I will test your note about markers this evening...
About your second post , if I ignore readouts, I can mix correctly now.
My observation is only about the 0% pitch , but it is regular.

Couin !

Couin 8:19 PM - 30 August, 2004

@ Steve :

I have tested the markers, with doing that :
-Make vertical line at 0:00:0 postinio
-Make one marker (point) on the border of the vinyl
-Make a static point on my mk2

On the side A, at about 10 minutes, the vinyl is 25 ~ 30 degrees more than the SSL shows

On the side B, at about 15 minutes, the vinyl is 15 ~ 20 degrees more than the SSL shows

But I don't think it is the reason of the problem...
I only find side A is very very very a little slowest than 0% with comparaison with int mode (on other deck), but it is stable and If I mix 2 mp3 , can keep sync.

Couin 10:37 PM - 30 August, 2004

I did a test :

With one mk2 :
-I have recorded a normal vinyl with pitch locked at 0%.
-Directly with the given wave file, I had map it on the both decks.
-I hade take the control vinyl off SSL, didn't touch the mk2 pitch fader.
-One deck in internal mode , other deck in abs mode (controled with the mk2)
- I had launch it, sync them and look the waveforms.

In theory, the wave on the internal mode must give the same "mk2 0%" default" than the mk2 wich I had recorded the file.

With each drift correction, there are two results :
On side A, at the point of changing mode (ABS > INT), there is about 0,3 seconds at 10 minutes play.
Here is a screen shot :
sined.denis.free.fr

On side B, at the point of changing mode (ABS > INT), there is about 0,2 seconds at 15 minutes play.
Here is a screen shot :
sined.denis.free.fr

So, I think there is perhaps a very small "0% pitch default" on the correction, more on side A than side B, BUT ,it is stable speed despite everything.

Couin.

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update 1111 all good fixes (other than pitch drift)

update 1111 all good fixes (other than pitch drift)

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