Serato DJ Pro General Discussion

Forum
 Serato DJ Pro General Discussion
THE WORST EXCUSE FOR NOVATION TWITCH
Talk about Serato DJ Pro, expansion packs and supported hardware

THE WORST EXCUSE FOR NOVATION TWITCH

Mr. Goodkat 9:51 AM - 29 August, 2011
''Serato, Support
Matt-C 8:35 PM 27 August 2011
Hey guys.

We do appreciate your feedback. We do listen, and while we do work very very closely with our hardware partners to design controllers, we are a software company first and foremost, and Novation is a hardware company first and foremost. Feel free to directly contact Novation about this - they are also keen to hear customer feedback - they are a very customer friendly organization.

It's not applicable to compare devices such as the S4, as that has an entirely different power blueprint.

Since this help thread has been answered, I'll close if for now as a Feature Request (ie. to not USB power devices so the output can he higher for high power blueprint devices).

Please feel free to keep chatting about this in the General Discussion are. Those areas are made for this type of conversation, users feedback from a wider chunk of the community helps us immensely.

Cheers guys! '''

maybe the worst excuse ever being that itch only works with a controller of some sort. serato itch is even on the controller stamped at the bottom. c'mon now. i guess i have to take this back now or end up with a product thats worthless. ive dealt with synths, drum machines, computers, midi controllers,tts, cdjs, etc over the years and the sheer negativity of the complaints along with the engineering flaws with the unit i.e. no power supply for louder output, will doom this unit to be worthless sooner than later. disappointing because i really like the unit, but i need a pro unit. I dont think the 500$ price tag should be a reason for a low volume output, just make the unit work or don't endorse the unit with the serato stamp on the unit.

cheers guys!(what an patronizing ending to a post that basically says that the product is bullocks)
Nonnus 11:40 AM - 29 August, 2011
Quote:
I dont think the 500$ price tag should be a reason for a low volume output, just make the unit work or don't endorse the unit with the serato stamp on the unit.

+1, not to mention novation "still" inaccurately advertises it as having
Quote:
Professional, high level outputs which eliminate hum and noise
[O/][iii][O/] 12:20 PM - 29 August, 2011
Quote:
I dont think the 500$ price tag should be a reason for a low volume output, just make the unit work or don't endorse the unit with the serato stamp on the unit.


Exactly. Amen. I was shocked and saddened when I first read that response as well. Felt like "Gotchya!" moment as if now that they got my money they then go and say "Oh well dumbass, you should've known better that you weren't going to get what we advertised and you expected because you didn't spend enough money".

The fingerpointing is disgusting and disturbing.


Frankly I don't care WHAT it costs. I just want one of these manufacturers to step up to the plate and produce a proper, professional, industrial grade controller solution (all-in-one type AND external mixer type) that is in/around the Twitch/Kontrol X1 chassis size, feature set. My money is waiting, but if Novation doesn't make good on Twitch they can count me out on earning any more of my business.
djcerla 2:50 PM - 29 August, 2011
This reminds me the infamous "Antenna Problem" on the iPhone 4. Much fanfare, much "fail" statements on tech blogs, biggest selling handset in history with highest customer satisfaction rates in the marketplace.

I checked the Twitch in studio right now and it's definitely more than usable in a pro environment; in case you need more gain, just sum the signal of the booth out: it's in phase and it gives an healthy 3dBs+ without any distortion.

Anyhow, Novation should remove that false statement from the advertising campaign.
[O/][iii][O/] 3:14 PM - 29 August, 2011
Quote:
This reminds me the infamous "Antenna Problem" on the iPhone 4. Much fanfare, much "fail" statements on tech blogs, biggest selling handset in history with highest customer satisfaction rates in the marketplace.

I checked the Twitch in studio right now and it's definitely more than usable in a pro environment; in case you need more gain, just sum the signal of the booth out: it's in phase and it gives an healthy 3dBs+ without any distortion.

Anyhow, Novation should remove that false statement from the advertising campaign.


Well, kind of, but not really. Apple's so-called "Antennagate" was a very real issue that affected a very small portion of its customers*, but what makes this situation different (at least as it stands right now) is that Apple acknowledged the issue, demonstrated in detail how every phone has same issue, and ultimately offered a no-cost, band-aid solution for customers who were affected. So far, Novation hasn't shown low output to be a common issue among pro DJ audio devices, they haven't offered a solution (either free OR paid), and of course they false advertised as you said baiting customers to purchase their product with expectations based on their advertising claims.

* Whether or not this low output issue a small or large portion of Twitch users remains to be seen, but that's an apple/orange comparison (no pun intended) because EVERYONE buys an iPhone to communicate and relies on signal to do so, but not every Twitch user will be using in pro environments, need booth outputs for monitors, etc.
[O/][iii][O/] 3:16 PM - 29 August, 2011
sorry, no damn edit function @#$%^#@$%^

"Whether or not this low output issue affects a small or large portion of Twitch users..."
djcerla 5:56 PM - 29 August, 2011
The only real issue is tbe ad.

Novation staff already gave a technical explaination (being the tradeoff lower volume<>better S/N ratio) of why they choose low volume by design. And there's a simple workaround to get more volume just in case. As Steve Jobs said, "you're holding it wrong" :)
DJ Dub Cowboy 6:01 PM - 29 August, 2011
man, this is really disappointing to hear as I have had a Twitch on pre-order for months now.

seems like it would have been easy to add a place to plug in an optional power adaptor.


Shortcuts on DJ products just make shortcut DJs.
[O/][iii][O/] 6:17 PM - 29 August, 2011
Quote:
The only real issue is tbe ad.


Pretty big issue when people made purchasing decisions based on what ad promised.


Quote:
Novation staff already gave a technical explaination (being the tradeoff lower volume<>better S/N ratio) of why they choose low volume by design.


Right, but I (and I'm sure plenty of others) are wanting a explanation as to why a port wasn't added so a power supply (either included or optional) could be connected in order to get performance up to what they claimed.

Quote:
And there's a simple workaround to get more volume just in case. As Steve Jobs said, "you're holding it wrong" :)


That workaround don't work when booth outputs are needed to feed booth monitors (which they're designed to do).

Quote:
As Steve Jobs said, "you're holding it wrong" :)


lol
I1Kirm 6:52 PM - 29 August, 2011
The ad indeed quite abstractly mentions high-level outputs but keep in mind that Novation gives exact info on their output levels
www.novationmusic.com
DJ Dub Cowboy 6:57 PM - 29 August, 2011
"TWITCH includes an ultra-reliable 2 in 4 out USB audio interface with high-level/low noise main and headphone outputs so it they can be connected directly to large PA systems as well as home audio set-ups with zero hum or noise. "

That part is misleading considering the feedback unanimously being given in this forum.
Nonnus 7:00 PM - 29 August, 2011
Quote:
Analogue Audio Outputs (¼" TRS)


• Electronically balanced output

• Maximum Output Level (0dBFS): +7.0dBu

• THD+N: 0.0075% (-1dBFS output, 20Hz/22kHz bandpass filter)



Analogue Audio Outputs (RCA phono)


• Unbalanced output

• Maximum output level (0dBFS): +7.0dBu


none of the two outputs is able to provide more than -3dbfs on a metered input,
i fail to see this +7 dbu at 0 dbfs if the unit is not able to reach that reference value...
am i missing something or their tech specs are not even accurate or reliable, as in being a sham...
I1Kirm 7:08 PM - 29 August, 2011
Quote:
"TWITCH includes an ultra-reliable 2 in 4 out USB audio interface with high-level/low noise main and headphone outputs so it they can be connected directly to large PA systems as well as home audio set-ups with zero hum or noise. "

That part is misleading considering the feedback unanimously being given in this forum.


Well technically is not. Twitch can indeed be directly connected to large PA systems with zero hum or noise... That doesn't mean that it will sound louder than a DJM though...


Quote:
none of the two outputs is able to provide more than -3dbfs on a metered input,
i fail to see this +7 dbu at 0 dbfs if the unit is not able to reach that reference value...
am i missing something or their tech specs are not even accurate or reliable, as in being a sham..


If this is the case (and I'm not saying is not since I don't own one) then Novation should update their specs and apologize to users. Maybe a user with more knowledge on metering than me can give us a better explanation of what these numbers stand for in everyday use...
Nonnus 7:11 PM - 29 August, 2011
regarding the antennagate:
- the "you re holding it wrong" statement was obviously a mistake by his steveness, that had to be corrected by the unusual press release keynote (by apple standards)
- the issue was actually a phenomenon measured to be present in most of the existing smartphones, just not as widely and publicly pointed out as happened with the revolutionary apple antenna design,
i had an iphone 4 since august 2010 and never had any issues with its reception, even though i use it everyday (maybe not as phone though) i have never felt limited in any way by this issue,
most of the time my iphone is on its bumber (apple cases they offered for free to dolve the issue),
not sure if it helps or not, but it is quite nice to have the feeling that even if there is some handicap i dont need to live with daily

i have twitch for a week and a half and already had to resort to gimmicks (that work, but are still just that, gimmicks, workarounds) as the audio output limitation became quite obvious
[O/][iii][O/] 7:27 PM - 29 August, 2011
This is just crazy. How could Novation not know this was going to be an issue in the field and design accordingly. Of COURSE Twitch is going to be used with mixers that have Pioneer CD players connected to them so that's the reference everyone will be expecting, comparing to, and ultimately having problems because of with the hobbled output.
Nonnus 7:28 PM - 29 August, 2011
Quote:
Of COURSE Twitch is going to be used with mixers that have Pioneer CD players

naaaaaa, get out of here

you think ?

mixers with cdjs connected to them ? crazy stuff....
[O/][iii][O/] 7:35 PM - 29 August, 2011
I would laugh all this didn't hurt so much.
Nonnus 7:44 PM - 29 August, 2011
dont sweat about it man, really
is not worth it, as fas as we are concerned no one else is as concerned about the issue as we are,
not novation for sure!

we should be playing music instead of keyboard keys on internet forums

if it is really bumming you that much just return the unit as fast as possible and let the store know why it is happening, post here, etc find a piece of gear that just works for you right now, not a promise of something that may or may never work as advertised and enjoy the art you dedicated yourself to ;)

if you can live with the already described workarounds / wacky fixes then do it and dont let it get on your nerves, keep posting about the issue whenever it feels appropriate so there is no false sense of something being fixed / corrected or mildly ok

but dont let it interfere with your inspiration, determination, spirit, mood, etc
they dont deserve it, we are the only ones loosing any sleep over it :(


as cerla tends to accurately state there is a couple known workarounds
DJ Dub Cowboy 8:07 PM - 29 August, 2011
it's just sad to see people sending their units back before all the pre-orders have even been filled. Personally, I'm still very Twitch curious and will try it out once I get mine. My disappointment is more for Novation and Serato as before this shipped it looked like a home-run, but now it's kind of looking like a base hit.

The whole DJ gear industry is based on compromise these last 2 years.

Buy the expensive 68, but get bad cue buttons.
Buy the expensive CDJ-2000 CD player but use it as a HID controller.
Buy the inexpensive Twitch or VCI-300 but get low output.
Buy the DX but no scratching.
Motorized platters on a controller? okay, but only 2 decks.
Want 3 decks in Traktor or Itch? you have to have 4.
S4, DDJ-S1, DDJ-T1 - no booth outputs.
Still want to use turntables? sorry we discontinued those.

How long do the EmpathSL and Rane controller suggestions have to go unanswered before they finally try? Seems like some experienced users know exactly what they want and aren't getting it, while all these manufacturers play the guessing game for users who don't know what they want.

Enough with all the hype and leaked videos and build-ups for products that disappoint. I think I'll spend my day buying some more 1200s on craigslist.
DJ CAPRO 8:23 PM - 29 August, 2011
Quote:
Buy the inexpensive Twitch or VCI-300 but get low output.


a powered VCI-300 MKII is very loud
DJ Dub Cowboy 8:49 PM - 29 August, 2011
So why take a step backwards with Twitch. I realize that they are made by different companies but Serato should have universal specs that need to be met.

The other complaint I hear about Twitch is the brighness of it's 100+ LEDs, so why in the world would they force everyone to use USB bus power? The S4 is louder and brighter when AC power is used but it can be bus powered.

It may cost a little more, but from the stats so far just in this thread they would have sold a few more units.
Nonnus 8:51 PM - 29 August, 2011
Quote:
a powered VCI-300 MKII is very loud

as a twitch should be

this is the real issue:
-serato will keep stating the hardware development is novation part and they have not saying in it,
-novation will keep stating their research efforts and usb power technical limitations,
-we will keep complaining about the audio output not matching the levels of other devices known to be regularly used / connected in same environment / gear as twitch is intended to

just adding the goddamn power switch plug would have taken care of this problem
(hell, they did not even need to bundle the power supply! just make it compatible with universal rack shack ones that we could buy, borrow anywhere)

ps: i really dont understand why incredible high mixer gains keep being referred to as being the "normal" solution to the problem,
they are not,
at the very best they may attenuate the problem of twitch output being half of the defacto standard gear even with twitch at full maximum gain and either close to activating the limiter, massaging it or clipping it,
notice that when i say "output being half" i mean:
"to match levels on a djm u need to set cdj channel to 50% and twitch channel to 100%"


no no and no

twitch (or any self respecting gear that is supposed to be connected to a dj mixer) can not require any further gain on mixer than a cdj,
if it requires power supply or not that is irrelevant, but it needs to be able to match the same level without riding its channel gain
Nonnus 8:54 PM - 29 August, 2011
Quote:
Serato should have universal specs that need to be met

wise words

would you agree that current level output standards are the ones provided from pioneer cdj, rane sl or native instruments audio dj ?
[O/][iii][O/] 10:37 PM - 29 August, 2011
Quote:
Quote:
Serato should have universal specs that need to be met

wise words

would you agree that current level output standards are the ones provided from pioneer cdj, rane sl or native instruments audio dj ?



With statements like this (below) one would think the "partnership" would include these types of standards and that the "partners" be required to meet them. If not, it's just the Wild West and we wind up rolling the dice with every purchase wondering if what we're buying us up to snuff or not. This is one reason I ditched Microsoft years ago and went 100% Apple. You know stuff "just works" and have confidence i every purchase (and I'm more than happy to pay a premium for that confidence - especially when it comes to DJ gear because ultimately my reputation in on the line when using it).

"Serato ITCH is an integrated software and hardware system, designed to give music selectors and DJs new kinds of control. Serato and ITCH partners have made award winning DJ systems that operate without CD players or turntables."

"There are a variety of ITCH controllers designed in conjunction with the worlds leading DJ brands. Each manufacturer has co-engineered their ITCH hardware with Serato to embrace the needs of the many styles of DJing being performed today."
Nonnus 11:37 PM - 29 August, 2011
Quote:
If not, it's just the Wild West

it is the wild wild west, unless you are in asia i guess, then its the wild wild east ???

Quote:
100% Apple. You know stuff "just works" and have confidence i every purchase

hmmm, tricky one
as much as i respect apple products and philosophy, there are quirks in their behavior that i have occasionally disagreed (ex: lack of fw on first 13" mbp, lack of esata, etc), but its their way of doing things, when they (or just steve, who knows ?) decide on changing some standard they dont care at all for their users or the defacto standards, unless there is an overwhelming reaction (as was the case of the fw so it was implemented as it should have been since the start)
so, i guess if apple decided to make a kick ass dj controller and decided that current output levels from cdjs are too high for hi end audio fidelity and had implemented lower output, chances are that they might be able to get away with it and after some years even pioneer would have lowered its devices output,
or maybe for one, two years these apple controllers would have low output and sold as having pristine sound quality, unparalleled _insert crazy feature to have mass appeal to cool ppl in a clever way_ in the industry, breaking all the rules, etc (we all know the power of apple marketing magic)
but so many of users, media, relevant blogs and internet personas would complain that they would make a new revision, with higher output (as it should have been since begining) and even advertise this as a big new feature, super mega high output for the cleanest, wisest and magicalest sound in the whole universe... and we would be happy

Quote:
Serato and ITCH partners have made award winning DJ systems that operate without CD players or turntables

but may require a mixer or pre amp to deliver adequate output levels

Quote:
There are a variety of ITCH controllers designed in conjunction with the worlds leading DJ brands

but serato has no participation in the development of products from the other brands, that are not world leading, you know, like novation
Underground 11:51 PM - 29 August, 2011
So under the trade descriptions act, if the product isn't doing the full job it's meant to be doing surely we can get out money back?
JDforKing 2:22 AM - 30 August, 2011
Quote:
Quote:
Buy the inexpensive Twitch or VCI-300 but get low output.


a powered VCI-300 MKII is very loud


Yeah but your platters will eventually become unresponsive and youll have to do some bootleg cleaning session to get it to work for a couple of weeks and then the same problem will return
Underground 4:00 AM - 30 August, 2011
Quote:
Yeah but your platters will eventually become unresponsive and youll have to do some bootleg cleaning session to get it to work for a couple of weeks and then the same problem will return


I had the same prob, thank God for that you-tube vid.
Nonnus 4:03 AM - 30 August, 2011
Quote:
Yeah but your platters will eventually become unresponsive and youll have to do some bootleg cleaning session to get it to work for a couple of weeks and then the same problem will return

been using mine for exactly a year and never had problems with the jogs,
i dont scratch though, just beatmatch but i like to constantly shuffle tracks a little between themselves

only issue i had was some leak on the left fader that seems to have been fixed with a little deoxyt
hamplifier 9:55 AM - 30 August, 2011
hey guys i have not used twitch only read a few things about how useless it is

one of the things ive read is the sound volume isn't very good and apparently its due to it being only USB powered? i dont understand this

before i bought my ns7 i owned a tiny usb controller made by AVE, it was USB powered and very very cheap , $300 NZD compared to the $3000 i paid for the ns7, yet the sound volume is the same as what my ns7 puts out

i just find their excuse of it being under volumed because of it being USB powered a crock of shite

my 2c :)
Nonnus 10:02 AM - 30 August, 2011
Quote:
one of the things ive read is the sound volume isn't very good and apparently its due to it being only USB powered? i dont understand this

few ppl do...

Quote:
i just find their excuse of it being under volumed because of it being USB powered a crock of shite

a lot of ppl do too...
CALL_DOM 11:26 AM - 30 August, 2011
Quote:
hey guys i have not used twitch only read a few things about how useless it is

one of the things ive read is the sound volume isn't very good and apparently its due to it being only USB powered? i dont understand this

before i bought my ns7 i owned a tiny usb controller made by AVE, it was USB powered and very very cheap , $300 NZD compared to the $3000 i paid for the ns7, yet the sound volume is the same as what my ns7 puts out

i just find their excuse of it being under volumed because of it being USB powered a crock of shite

my 2c :)




u paid 3 Gs for a ns7 in NZ? Im in Aus, we should start selling gear together over there for a BITCHIN ASSSSS PROFIT!!!!!!!
hamplifier 11:29 AM - 30 August, 2011
haha was $2999 dont forget your dollar is way above ours :(:( , i also got the nsfx and flight case with it as a bundle i think the ns7 alone is about $2200 here
CALL_DOM 12:03 PM - 30 August, 2011
lol fair enough man.. thats still about a grand markup for the stock unit at RRP tho...
FrankC15 6:45 PM - 30 August, 2011
Just to clarify - is the problem of the unit being underpowered only a problem where the DJ is plugging directly into powered PA speakers from the unit?
[O/][iii][O/] 7:04 PM - 30 August, 2011
Quote:
Just to clarify - is the problem of the unit being underpowered only a problem where the DJ is plugging directly into powered PA speakers from the unit?


Problem is BOTH when either plugging directly into PAs or into external mixers.
FrankC15 7:08 PM - 30 August, 2011
Quote:
Quote:
Just to clarify - is the problem of the unit being underpowered only a problem where the DJ is plugging directly into powered PA speakers from the unit?


Problem is BOTH when either plugging directly into PAs or into external mixers.


But can't you just boost the gain on the external mixer?
Nonnus 7:23 PM - 30 August, 2011
Quote:
But can't you just boost the gain on the external mixer?

not really,
without resorting to a clever worakround you cant match a cdj playing with djm mixer channel gain over 1/2, when you have twitch at maximum output level and mixer at maximum channel gain it can barely match a cdj at 1/2 gain
[O/][iii][O/] 7:26 PM - 30 August, 2011
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Just to clarify - is the problem of the unit being underpowered only a problem where the DJ is plugging directly into powered PA speakers from the unit?


Problem is BOTH when either plugging directly into PAs or into external mixers.


But can't you just boost the gain on the external mixer?


I have not been able to match CDJs or TTs connected to several different mixers so far - even with the gain cranked ALL the way up on the channel Twitch is coming in on and Twitch's output turned all the way up too. ITCH's limiter function starts to go crazy if any more gain is added in the setup section.
FrankC15 7:28 PM - 30 August, 2011
Quote:
Quote:
But can't you just boost the gain on the external mixer?

not really,
without resorting to a clever worakround you cant match a cdj playing with djm mixer channel gain over 1/2, when you have twitch at maximum output level and mixer at maximum channel gain it can barely match a cdj at 1/2 gain



So then why not just increase gain on the DJM?
[O/][iii][O/] 7:34 PM - 30 August, 2011
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But can't you just boost the gain on the external mixer?

not really,
without resorting to a clever worakround you cant match a cdj playing with djm mixer channel gain over 1/2, when you have twitch at maximum output level and mixer at maximum channel gain it can barely match a cdj at 1/2 gain



So then why not just increase gain on the DJM?


As already stated several times now...

Quote:
I have not been able to match CDJs or TTs connected to several different mixers so far - even with the gain cranked ALL the way up on the channel Twitch is coming in on and Twitch's output turned all the way up too. ITCH's limiter function starts to go crazy if any more gain is added in the setup section.
FrankC15 7:41 PM - 30 August, 2011
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But can't you just boost the gain on the external mixer?

not really,
without resorting to a clever worakround you cant match a cdj playing with djm mixer channel gain over 1/2, when you have twitch at maximum output level and mixer at maximum channel gain it can barely match a cdj at 1/2 gain



So then why not just increase gain on the DJM?


As already stated several times now...

Quote:
I have not been able to match CDJs or TTs connected to several different mixers so far - even with the gain cranked ALL the way up on the channel Twitch is coming in on and Twitch's output turned all the way up too. ITCH's limiter function starts to go crazy if any more gain is added in the setup section.


Adjusting the gain on an outboard mixer wouldn't affect the limiter, unless the gain on the outboard is already so high that in order to make up the difference you have to crank up the itch controller.

I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around how you can't work around this problem, since I'm very interested in buying this controller.
[O/][iii][O/] 8:32 PM - 30 August, 2011
Quote:

Adjusting the gain on an outboard mixer wouldn't affect the limiter, unless the gain on the outboard is already so high that in order to make up the difference you have to crank up the itch controller.


Right, I know. The limiter comment was about when adjusting gain in ITCH's setup menu in that I couldn't get any more output out of Twitch unless I started crushing the limiter.

Twitch's output was MAX'd out AND the gain input on the external mixer Twitch is connected to was MAX'd out too and it could NOT mach the volume levels of CDJs or TT or SL or Traktor connected to other channels of same mixer and all of those OTHER source had their input gain set to zero (12 o'clock).


Quote:

I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around how you can't work around this problem, since I'm very interested in buying this controller.


No prob. I understand this is a bit complicated. Listen I know for a fact I would LOVE my Twitch IF the get the software bugs straightened out and this output gain issue resolved. I reco spending some time reading all the threads here in this section too before purchasing: serato.com

Very disappointed so far with the launch of Twitch (mad in fact at some stuff), but hopeful it will all be resolved. STILL waiting to here from Novation before deciding if all this is a lost cause though. So far the responses (or lack of) have not been giving me a lot of faith.
Nonnus 11:24 PM - 30 August, 2011
Quote:
I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around how you can't work around this problem, since I'm very interested in buying this controller.

hey man, buy it, buy it now and check for our self
you will love it, i tell you!

ps: i really dont mean to sound condescending but it is quite tiring to need to repeat to you what has been stated countless times on several threads
Nonnus 11:33 PM - 30 August, 2011
but i will try to help you understand in a simple way:
1 - it is physically NOT POSSIBLE to achieve more gain than turning a gain knob to maximum (confirmed)
2 - twitch at maximum gain on mixer channel AT MAXIMUM gain provides comparable output as a cdj with its mixer channel gain AT HALF (confirmed)
(please allow me to remind you to please notice the difference between half and maximum)
3 - if cdj is playing with its mixer gain over 50% it is basically impossible to match the level with a twitch no matter how much gain you boost it (confirmed)

(all these tests / measure are regarding to industry standard pioneer djm mixers,
some different brands might provide either less or more gain per channel,
maiking the situation either easier or even harder to deal with...)
Nonnus 11:35 PM - 30 August, 2011
Quote:
No prob. I understand this is a bit complicated

it realy isnt and has been explained enough times by enough people to justify such question on a already long thread about the exact same topic...
Mr. Goodkat 12:05 AM - 31 August, 2011
it works on a 800, but i have to go to limiter levels everytime on the itch prog. cdjs are louder than my serato master gain at 12 oclock, so i can see how it would be problem. on the 900s and memory sticks, i notice even a bit of distortion, with one guy that plays that way.
Nonnus 12:11 AM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
it works on a 800, but i have to go to limiter levels everytime on the itch prog

this makes no difference,
as soon as the limiter kicks in you cannot achieve higher output
even if you play tracks on both twitch channels at max channel gain, with max master gain, with bass, mid and treble all fully maxed out and obviously limiter light almost burning a hole on the screen
Nonnus 12:14 AM - 31 August, 2011
although i fully agree that to ensure the needed output level even with maximum twitch master gain one needs to keep massagin the limiter, just blinking the light once in a while to let me know i am using all the few available headroom
djcerla 12:35 AM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Just to clarify - is the problem of the unit being underpowered only a problem where the DJ is plugging directly into powered PA speakers from the unit?


Problem is BOTH when either plugging directly into PAs or into external mixers.


But can't you just boost the gain on the external mixer?


The answer is YES.

The GAIN knob on a mixer has one single purpose: to even the level of different devices; louder devices such as a CDJ or a NS7 and quieter devices such a VCI-300 or a Twitch.

The problem isn't in the device, but in the misuse of the GAIN knob, too often used as a volume control. Cranked up gains on CDJs mean distorted output and inability to mix in quieter devices.

Serious clubs have a serious gains policy in place.
Nonnus 12:54 AM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
The answer is YES.

The GAIN knob on a mixer has one single purpose: to even the level of different devices; louder devices such as a CDJ or a NS7 and quieter devices such a VCI-300 or a Twitch.

The problem isn't in the device, but in the misuse of the GAIN knob, too often used as a volume control. Cranked up gains on CDJs mean distorted output and inability to mix in quieter devices.

Serious clubs have a serious gains policy in place.

the answer is NO

if a device output is so low that requires such an increased gain over competing devices that a industry standard mixer gain is not able to compensate then it seems there is a problem ?

and you know that even better than most as you already agreed that twitch is only usable in more critical situation when resorting to your brilliant workaround (being let out of the discussion for now as we are talking about the device as is)

sound policies aside,
life is life and when you re on the road you need to be prepared for the most common situations and the gear you use should be versatile and usable in most situations of those,
not happening with twitch...
[O/][iii][O/] 12:55 AM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Just to clarify - is the problem of the unit being underpowered only a problem where the DJ is plugging directly into powered PA speakers from the unit?


Problem is BOTH when either plugging directly into PAs or into external mixers.


But can't you just boost the gain on the external mixer?


The answer is YES.

The GAIN knob on a mixer has one single purpose: to even the level of different devices; louder devices such as a CDJ or a NS7 and quieter devices such a VCI-300 or a Twitch.

The problem isn't in the device, but in the misuse of the GAIN knob, too often used as a volume control. Cranked up gains on CDJs mean distorted output and inability to mix in quieter devices.

Serious clubs have a serious gains policy in place.


Correct. Let me give you an example of what I've been experiencing over the past week with Twitch.

First of all, I NEVER touch red. In fact, I barely flirt with yellow. So I fully understand the proper use of gain controls.


OK, in every instance....

- CDJs and/or TTs and/or DVS connected other channel inputs of external mixer.

- Gains on external mixer for channels that CDs/TTs/DVS all coming in on TURNED TO 12' O'CLOCK and level meters hit yellow on peaks.

- Twitch master output connected to open channel input of external mixer.

- Twitch master output turned ALL THE WAY UP and gain on external mixer for channel that Twitch is coming in on turned ALL THE WAY UP and level meters barely reaching 0dB on peaks.

End result: Can not get Twitch, even when everything for it is maxed out to meet the volume of other devices (CD/TT/DVD) when they are all set with perfect gain.
[O/][iii][O/] 12:59 AM - 31 August, 2011
Note: Now I COULD turn down the gains for all the devices to bring them all down to the maximum level of Twitch, but then two things suffer. 1) Headphone volume of tracks being cued, and 2) overall volume of main sound system. Neither one of these things is good and in my book (and the books of people I;m being paid to perform for) is acceptable.
Nonnus 1:05 AM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
End result: Can not get Twitch, even when everything for it is maxed out to meet the volume of other devices (CD/TT/DVD) when they are all set with perfect gain.


you seem to be one of the few users that has been activelly connecting twitch to working systems, so indeed you are being faced with this limitation, have you tried cerla solution ?
it works quite well and will avoid this problem you re facing
(but should not be considered a permanent solution or even be used to attenuate the absurdness of the situation)

Quote:
I COULD turn down the gains for all the devices to bring them all down to the maximum level of Twitch

yeah, the crowd would love that,
awesome way to get yourself noticed, not for the best reasons though...
irieproductions 3:06 AM - 31 August, 2011
sucks that the output of the twitch is not that loud but damn i cant believe that you guys are not able to match output levels where you spin at. I've used usb powered controllers like the american audio vms4 and of course the output level decreases as opposed to using the main power but you always should have enough headroom on your mixer or main mixing board to be able to match your output levels.

Several All in one controllers that are usb bus powered experience the same behavior this is not new to Twitch.
Nonnus 3:19 AM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
i cant believe that you guys are not able to match output levels where you spin at

have you tried it ?
we did...

why is it so hard for ppl to believe something that has been reported by so many different users ?
FrankC15 4:51 AM - 31 August, 2011
meh. After reading this thread I decided to pick up the Twitch today anyway. The problem you are complaining about is pretty much universal for any USB powered controller. The output just isn't going to be as loud comparatively. The Twitch doesn't seem unusually quiet compared to the 1st gen VCI-300. It's just the nature of the thing. It will never compare output-wise to a CDJ, but it's stil a pretty awesome controller.
Nonnus 5:32 AM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
The problem you are complaining about is pretty much universal for any USB powered controller

right, thats why several controllers are able provide higher output while usb powered (ex: s4)

Quote:
The Twitch doesn't seem unusually quiet compared to the 1st gen VCI-300.

really ? have you compared both side by side ?

Quote:
It's just the nature of the thing. It will never compare output-wise to a CDJ

thats's for sure,
however you dont seem to find that to be wrong, undesirable or avoidable, interesting...

hope you keep the same opinion for a long time and enjoy your new gear!
but i suspect we will hear back from you the very first time you use it in public after someone else
(you should be fine with twitch if you never take it out of your room though)
FrankC15 1:46 PM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
Quote:
The problem you are complaining about is pretty much universal for any USB powered controller

right, thats why several controllers are able provide higher output while usb powered (ex: s4)

Quote:
The Twitch doesn't seem unusually quiet compared to the 1st gen VCI-300.

really ? have you compared both side by side ?

Quote:
It's just the nature of the thing. It will never compare output-wise to a CDJ

thats's for sure,
however you dont seem to find that to be wrong, undesirable or avoidable, interesting...

hope you keep the same opinion for a long time and enjoy your new gear!
but i suspect we will hear back from you the very first time you use it in public after someone else
(you should be fine with twitch if you never take it out of your room though)


Why not just buy a small preamp to bring with you to gigs where you might be using it after someone with CDJs? I.e. something like this: www.needledoctor.com
Nonnus 2:08 PM - 31 August, 2011
you cant use a phono preamp with line level devices

a line level pre amp can be used though,
this has already been mentioned as one the possible workarounds,
connecting both outputs (master and booth) to 2 channel mixers is another,
both just highlight the fact that something is not right
Nonnus 2:08 PM - 31 August, 2011
(2 channels on the mixer)
FrankC15 2:14 PM - 31 August, 2011
Something like this would probably be perfect: www.tnt-audio.com
Nonnus 2:22 PM - 31 August, 2011
yes, something like that could work,
we have been discussing tube preamp options in another thread:
serato.com

i am actually going mental with this tube thing now,
i am hoping someone outbids me on this one:
www.ebay.es
anton_ 3:00 PM - 31 August, 2011
To all of you guys thinking about buying the Twitch, there seems to be a bunch of trolls running around the Internet screaming about the low output of Twitch an posting every were. Se this thread for example (there is like 15 pages of one guy refusing to listen to anyone): www.djtechtools.com

I have had the Twitch a week now and find the output satisfying. Of course there are louder sources, but its definitely enough, not unusually low or anything. More importantly it sounds good and haven't had any problem with noise. And I much more like the usb-route than having to crawl on the floor connecting one more power-plug.

Of course you can turn up the gain on your mixer and reach the same levels, that's what the gain-knob is there for. Doesn't modern mixers have 9db gain or something? Much more than you will need. And if you would find yourself in a strange situation where you can't gain enough. Just gain the cdjs down a bit and raise the master. It's not that hard.

The only problem I can see with the sound levels is when you connect a couple of monitors directly to Twitch, which I haven't tried yet, and most of them if not all have gains anyways. But the whole "it won't sound as loud as couple of cdjs in a pro club" is just ridiculous.

And if you have a unit with that low output that some of you talk about here, well its obviously faulty and just ship it back for a new one.


Can we please stop screaming a bit about this for a while so the Novation/Serato guys could focus on the things the should be focusing about. Giving us control over that lovely SP-6 and tweaking some of the strange behaviours of Twitch for example.

Thanks.
Nonnus 3:08 PM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
the whole "it won't sound as loud as couple of cdjs in a pro club" is just ridiculous

only to those that have never been faced with the situation,
the others playing in the bedroom enjoy it plenty it seems...
DJ CAPRO 3:16 PM - 31 August, 2011
considering the cost of twitch, i think getting a line level pre amp is reasonable if you want to make it rig ready

doesn't excuse the false advertising of high level output and i wouldn't want to be the guy who finds this stuff out live, going on after someone using CDJs in the red that pump out twice the volume... At that point you'll have to run and find the bar owner / soundman to turn the system up
FrankC15 4:38 PM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
Quote:
the whole "it won't sound as loud as couple of cdjs in a pro club" is just ridiculous

only to those that have never been faced with the situation,
the others playing in the bedroom enjoy it plenty it seems...


Also, in the hypothetical situation you're describing, isn't it only an issue where the guys using the CDJs have already pushed the gain all the way up? They probably shouldn't be doing that anyway
Nonnus 4:47 PM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
Also, in the hypothetical situation you're describing, isn't it only an issue where the guys using the CDJs have already pushed the gain all the way up? They probably shouldn't be doing that anyway

maybe they shouldnt,
but they do and its not hypothetical,
it is a reality

just not for ppl that never have never taken twitch out of of the house (or even worse, dont even have one to try or other gear to compare it to) hence all this continuous arguing while more and more reports pop up as anybody that faces that situation will (finally) understand the issue
kraal 4:54 PM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
"TWITCH includes an ultra-reliable 2 in 4 out USB audio interface with high-level/low noise main and headphone outputs so it they can be connected directly to large PA systems as well as home audio set-ups with zero hum or noise. "

That part is misleading considering the feedback unanimously being given in this forum.

from all i read from novation this statement is accurate... you can plug it in and they eliminated noise....
no where does it say super duper extremely loud. I still would like a twich controller without the sound card as an add on to my itch set up
Nonnus 4:56 PM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
no where does it say super duper extremely loud. I still would like a twich controller without the sound card as an add on to my itch set up


Quote:
- Professional, high level outputs which eliminate hum and noise

www.novationmusic.com
kraal 5:03 PM - 31 August, 2011
well 'professional' isnt a real rating sytem -- what is emphasized is the ELIMINATION of hum. very specifically worded
Nonnus 5:08 PM - 31 August, 2011
totally lost when connected to a channel that needs to be abnormally boosted,
totally changing signal to noise ratio and leading to many reports of noise on the outputs...

@kraal: i have to say i would expect new ppl to insist on this, not you...
not after cerla already stating thatfor twitch to be usable on normal dj environment we have to merge both master and booth output to achieve a adequate level to work with or use a preamp...
kraal 5:17 PM - 31 August, 2011
hey my argument is not about the actual output --- i am just stating people claiming they are mislead by wording. ads are worded a certain way . so you can't run around saying it should work like this cause it says this in the add.....
Nonnus 5:17 PM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
well 'professional' isnt a real rating sytem


actually, professional level does mean something in pro audio,
it means +4dBV signal output
something twitch does not have (it has consumer level, -10dBu)

Quote:

Line levels and their nominal voltage levels.
Use Nominal level Nominal level, VRMS Peak Amplitude, VPK
ARD, Germany +6 dBu 1.550 (approximate) 2.192 (approximate)
USA professional audio +4 dBu 1.228 (approximate) 1.737 (approximate)
Consumer audio −10 dBV 0.316 0.447

en.wikipedia.org


regarding "high level outputs":
i dont know about you but i sure dont expect that to mean "such a low level output that needs to be really boosted to get remotely close to levels from other professional gear ",
does it ?
Nonnus 5:20 PM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
i am just stating people claiming they are mislead by wording. ads are worded a certain way . so you can't run around saying it should work like this cause it says this in the add.....

that practice has a name, it is called false advertising

Quote:

False advertising or deceptive advertising is the use of false or misleading statements in advertising. As advertising has the potential to persuade people into commercial transactions that they might otherwise avoid, many governments around the world use regulations to control false, deceptive or misleading advertising.

en.wikipedia.org
FrankC15 5:24 PM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
Quote:
well 'professional' isnt a real rating sytem


actually, professional level does mean something in pro audio,
it means +4dBV signal output
something twitch does not have (it has consumer level, -10dBu)

Quote:
Line levels and their nominal voltage levels.
Use Nominal level Nominal level, VRMS Peak Amplitude, VPK
ARD, Germany +6 dBu 1.550 (approximate) 2.192 (approximate)
USA professional audio +4 dBu 1.228 (approximate) 1.737 (approximate)
Consumer audio −10 dBV 0.316 0.447

en.wikipedia.org


regarding "high level outputs":
i dont know about you but i sure dont expect that to mean "such a low level output that needs to be really boosted to get remotely close to levels from other professional gear ",
does it ?


Wow that's actually a big problem. I didn't realize there was an objective standard for "professional" output. This is the sort of thing that could lead to a product recall.
Nonnus 5:30 PM - 31 August, 2011
Quote:
Wow that's actually a big problem. I didn't realize there was an objective standard for "professional" output. This is the sort of thing that could lead to a product recall.

i would not go so far as they do state the -10dBu level in the technical specs

but the sound is not high...

i would just like to see them changing it to
Quote:

- Amateur, average level outputs which eliminate hum and noise

now this would be accurate,
just not very good marketing i guess :)
kraal 5:30 PM - 31 August, 2011
no like i said it is not false advertising when is is vaguely worded....

but my point? complaining about wording is not going to solve the issue. I purchase ALL my gear from people i have an established relationship with for this very reason. I can walk in the door or send an email and say 'yo this sounds like crap ' and they give me my money back.
Nonnus 5:39 PM - 31 August, 2011
oh, i fully agree and have already recommended that anyone not pleased with it should return it in the 30 day period (no one has bought it for longer than that yet)

also already advised one forum member to not buy the product and directd him towards the xone:dx with its amazing discounted price

on my part i already tried cerla fix (wich works) and also ordered a tube preamp and a bunch of tubes (also for the fun of it but i would be doing something else if i did not have to deal with the low output)

but...
(and this is why i still keep posting about the issue)
i just cannot be quiet when people are dismissing our valid reports as if we are little children complaining because our new toy does not bleep loud enough
kraal 5:48 PM - 31 August, 2011
right and i am just adding the parts about wording cause that also isnt an excuss... 'well they say' means nothing in the real world --- always test and see if it works for you
Nonnus 5:59 PM - 31 August, 2011
right
and we did
and it has issues
that we are reporting
and people that never even tried the product or used it domestically keep dismissing our reports

regarding "well they say" arguments:
there was no such thing, we have always been using their marketing material copy and showing how it is indeed misleading and inaccurate