hmm, tasty...

seems quite interesting, but over 500 usd for just a small amp ????
i have to admit that for me to consider such an expensive hi end route on a itch controller (i assume that is how you are using it for the purpose of this post ;) i would need to use some sort of digital output from the controller into a decent dac

i am lookin into something like this. also for production work to add some warmth.

javier: what controller are you running this with?

VCI300MKII, I bought this one cause of the RCA IN and OUT, so I put it between the VCI and the input channel of whatever mixer I am using. I have a custom one with XLR IN and OUT that I used to use when I played on a full rig. That one was in between the Main Mixer Output and the Amps.

It is pricey but it sounds real nice, not to mention I am using some tubes $600 Tubes

www.tubedepot.com

I get a lot of compliments on the quality of the sound.

For production I recommend this unit

www.tlaudio.co.uk

i wonder why ?

this might be just the ticket for living peacefully with the low twitch output while enjoying its performance features! it does cost more than twitch itself though, but it seems to be a cool and distinctive add on to be used in several dj situations

your custom balanced unit seems actually more interesting and universal than their standard rca one, as i guess you can always use it also with an unbalanced signal, right ?
(i mean you seem to have both a unbalanced and balanced unit but you just really needed the balanced one and right coverter cables to rca)

i suppose you order the custom unit from decware, but i dont see any info on their site about it,
was it much more expensive than standard unit ?

just one more question, isnt this a somewhat delicate equipment to use in a dj booth ?
do you have any special care to transport it and while using it on the club ?
had any mishaps while giging with it (like damaged valves thus "forcing" you to buy hi end ones) ?

@Javier: you are getting me really curious about this!

i hope you dont mind some more questions:
why did you decide to try higher end tubes ?
you were not please with the standard decware ones ?
did you try different ones or did you just go directly to the most expensive ones ?
did you find such a noticeable difference between valves ?
(i know this is highly subjective and i am sure you will say yes as you already stated it by purchasing them;)

regarding gain, suppose you never had to worry about it with the vci even without ac adapter and without having to push mixer gains, right ?

those fat tracks are DOPE!!! been lookin at em for a while.

i have mates who bring their mackie mixers and beef up the digital signals. it rly adds a lot... but your tube compressor setup would really make a huge difference.

seriously considering putting order in for one. thank you for posting :)

Unless it's a >$3500 machine used sparingly by very, very expert hands, a valve compressor applied to a dance music program will most likely destroy transients (a valve has a slow response and of course there's no "look ahead"), thus mudding your sound.

The "fatness" you hear is a mix of saturation (pleasant, but it's already there in dance mixes!) + transients-shaving = less punch.

This comes from a happy owner of a Thermionic Culture "The Phoenix" :)

@djcerla: are you talking about using something like the decware while djing ?
(i dont think it is really a compressor, but "just" a valve powered gain amp stage)

The custom unit was built way before I got the decware, about 5 or 6 years ago. It was hand built by a friend of mine that was big into valve gains. That is how I was introduced. A valve gain is not the same as a valve compressor and every tube has a distinct signature sound, I have cheap ones and high end ones and every single one is different. The Black Sables were a gift and a very pleasant one at that. I have also tried various tube stages and gotten different results. If anyone has the opportunity to to run their digital setup through a valve stage they should. It is a completely different sound. When I archived the bulk of my Classic House 12"s I recorded them all using a Valve pre-amp. If on an analog unit it was a world of difference. The clarity and bass response was incredible but the thing that really gets me is the 3D effect that in throws into the music making it somewhat holographic if that is a good way to explain it. Anyhow, I am no expert in this field, I just happen to enjoy the sound of the tube.

you sir, seem to care alot about your sound and that is a something not so easy to find in this mp3 age,
kudos for that ;)

i would also say, 5 or 6 years "playing" around with valve stuff in this context makes you "dj valve" in my book :D

ps: i noticed in another thread you also were using a twitch ?
if so, did you plug it into the decware ? how did it sound ?

I sent the Twitch back, couldn't get passed the stiffness of the EQ knobs. Everything else about that unit was really cool. Its funny cause down here people would be like, "what is that?", when they say the glowing tubes and like I said everyone notices the difference in the Audio. There are a ton of words to the describe it but the best thing is for you to hear it for yourself. The most significant difference with MP3's and a digital setup was the bass.

i understand, their stiffness and plastic grip really annoyed me on day 1,
one week after they seem to be looser

i also hated the cheapo big encoders used for pitch and browse scroll (unlike the real hi quality s4/x1 ones, for me an industry standard regarding encoders quality, feeling and robustness) but the real deal breaker is the lousy low audio output, this alone is making me consider either to keep the unit or sell it to someone here in brazil where i currently am while it is not available yet

more questions, javier :)

but isn't the zstage a little fragile for dj environment?
do u have any special care to trasnport it and set it up ?
do u need to wait for how much time for the valve to warm up ?

I don't use it at every gig and yes it needs to warm up. I have a padded case for it when I bring it out. I learned my lesson once. I dropped one of my other tube pre's one time loading in. Usually I let it run the day of that way it's only down for about 30 minutes or so before I have to set it up somewhere else, not ideal but that is what I do.

thanks for your input, javier

i have contacted decware with some more specific questions :)

Cool you may want to check e-bay. When I got mine I found a good deal used.

you lucky @#%@#%@#% :D

no results on ebay when searching for decware or zstage :(

needless to say: thanks a lot for all the tips ;)

Well this may help. My custom Pre with the XLR's in and Out was made by Aric Audio

aricaudiosystems.com

www.ebay.com

damn, man
you will drive me nutz throwing options at my way!

i had contacted decware because of some issues / concerns:
- power supply, the zstage is hardwired for 110 or 220, as i keep traveling i would prefer a universal ps
- balanced connectors
- unit being audiophile oriented but planned to be used in dj/club/festival environment

this aric audio stuff you showed now seems quite interesting as well:
- seems very well built like the decware albeit bigger and bulkier than the zstage, even the tubes seem to be more exposed even if somewhat protected
- universal 110/220 power supply
- it uses 2 tubes while decware uses 1, cant say what i feel about it, can only think to ask you wich you prefer ? is your unit similar to the current ones regarding form factor
- the new units seem to have extra features i would not need like several switchable inputs and no balanced, it also seems his balanced implementation is to hardwire the extra pin (db.audioasylum.com)

the more i look at this the more it seems the ideal would be a custom unit,
less audiophile and more rugged for on the road usage
(i am not sure if i would notice the difference on a unit with pcb instead of surface mounted components - not sure how sturdy they are)
in a smaller unit hopefully powered by a universal rackshack power supply
(again not sure i would notice the difference between a normal power supply or their hi end one on the use i would make of it)

The decware is nice metal piece, not sure what Aric is building with now, mine is made of custom cut wood and the power is integrated not switchable like the decware. Also the unit is much bigger and bulky. The Zstage has options that are way different than the Aric Unit, the Aric unit is more comparable to the Zbox. The Zstage implements a gain and bias switch so you can drive the unit and tone of the tubes. Word of caution depending on the tubes you may end up with audible distortion if you drive it hard.

Also I am not sure if I would use these units when playing between djs. There are too many variables, I use these when I am doing a whole night by myself in a room I have full control of the sound. Some Club Audio Engineers may not be fond of you using this in their club or festival. You have to test it on the system, I had a few setups where there was too much audible distortion so I turned it off. Never really found the cause, on other systems they were amazing.

from what i gathered,
decware are either set to 110 or 220, you decide at purchase time,
aric audio is compatible with 110 and 220 out of the box


did you have the zstage gain very high ?
in the manual they state 12 oclock is around unity gain

if i decide on using such a thing it would be used mostly in 1 - 3 hour dj sets / live acts, with the occasional longer running session / party once in a while, not really planning to ride it very hard but i am not sure how hard would twitch force it to be run

ah, the usual dilemmas....
again, thank you so much for providing so much detailed info on the topic,
hope i can do the same someday about something more in my league ;)

how much would a unit like this help in the novation twitch issue?

quite a lot!

either a tube based or solid (transistor, op amp) pre amp would provide same result as if twitch had been factory fitted with higher power audio out, solid should provide clean boost, valve should provide "warmth" (pleasant harmonics, etc) but may be over the top according to javier

as i told before i think there units are a little too audiophile for our needs / desired usage,
as alternatives i have already found 2 cheaper products about to be released that should work fine and sure seem sturdier and with an added bonus, both of them provide separate controls for gain and drive allowing to easy a little on the tube distortion while allowing for gain boost:
alesis mictube duo (99 usd @ www.sweetwater.com / www.alesis.com)
presonus bluetube (229 usd @ www.sweetwater.com / www.presonus.com)

both of them seem to have been created as mic preamps but also work as line input preamps,
anal as i am i already know they will annoy me by not offering a ganged option to control both channels (left and right) with single knobs instead of one for each,
it will feel like using a manley passive all over again (not in a good way, i hatet having to set exactly knobs to exact same position, especially with undented knobs)

also both of them also seem to use the same tubes, 12ax7, that apparently offer the highest gain but may distort too quickly
javier is using a different flavor 12au7, with lower gain and more rounded lows that may sound better and be safer to use, he is also using very hi quality tubes (makes a big difference)
so it seems any of those units would benefit from a replacing their stock (probablu cheapo chinese) tube for a higher quality one (no need for super hi end ones like javier 1950's mullard, wont hurt as well but i suppose a 20 - 50 usd tube should already provide impressive results)
javier provided a link to a tube supplier some posts ago

i suppose the 12au7 should be the wisest options for our intended purpose

It all depends on the tubes, they all have different purposes. Some tubes may add some unwanted grit. You have to research and experiment before you commit to expensive tubes. Desirable results can be achieved with cheaper tubes.

Great place for tubes, tubedepot.com

I actually thought of getting a presonous why I bought my first generation VCI.

would you agree the 12au7 should provide the cleanest output of the 12xx7 family ?

from my quick research it seemed the higher gain ones are more approproate for guitar and bass amps looking for that grit you mentioned and distortion this is why i though it would be good to mention,
well, you had already mentioned the importance of the tubes :)
but it seemed important to reinforce the fact that these cheaper products usually ship with low quality tubes from type that may not be suited for our purposes

the presonus you considered is the same i linked to, the bluetube ?
i though it was new because sweetwater is waiting for them to arrive, like the alesis wich i know for a fact is new (info was on their site:)

I believe it was the same model, that was a while ago and if I remember correctly I went with hifi because of this info.

www.gearslutz.com

i guess i got a little biased towards the 12au7 tubes when i noticed both the decware zstage and aric audio stereo tube preamp use the 12au7 tubes and declare them as the cleanest sounding ones

honestly i am leaning towards the alesis mictube duo, cheaper, smaller, no sensitive vus to break...

Yeah, I've learned that the 12ax7 are louder but harsh, they worked great when I recorded my vinyl. For some reason I didn't get the harshness off the turntables. The 12at7 not so much and the 12au7 are the quietest.

home.comcast.net

Too bad we can't get something like the Xone:V6 which had a dual Valve circuit on each channel built in. Always wanted one but way over my price point. New they were going for like 6 grand.

Audiophile Rotary Club Mixer
Xone:V6 is an echo of the earliest days of pro audio, when idealistic individuals created outstanding products free from cost or time constraints. Such creations were never cheap. Nor did they sell in their thousands. But they did become landmark design classics. Our mission for Xone:V6 was simply to build the highest quality club mixer ever. We painstakingly refined our signal paths to optimise audio transparency. Hundreds of the best quality components were evaluated and of these only the very finest were approved for the project. The result is a mixer that gives great recordings the space and freedom to express their full warmth and clarity.

Features
• 6 dual stereo channels
• Channels 5-6 valve preamp
• High pass filter on each channel
• Intelligent cue system
• Insert points for EQ isolator and Cross fader options
• Booth monitor and mic channel
• All valve input option available
• Separate auto sensing PSU

Input Channels
6 dual stereo channels with switchable sources [RCA]. CH1-4 are RIAA / Line, CH5-6 are Line / Line [RIAA inputs can be internally configured to line level if desired]. A rotary gain trim control knob is located in the meter housing on each channel - internal options for 0 /+6 / +10 dBu matching

Valve [Tube] Section
Channels 5-6 each have a stereo valve [tube] preamplifier - ideal for mellowing harsh digital music sources

Microphone input
High quality mic input. Metal shrouded balanced XLR connector on rear panel. Phantom power can be internally selected. A level control and 2 band EQ [120Hz / 2.5kHz] are on the front panel. A toggle switch selects mic on [when off, mic can be cued in headphone monitor]. Rear panel switch routes the mic to the booth output if needed. An insert point [TRS] jack is provided for external processing

EQ
A large rotary control for high pass filter is provided on each channel, which sweeps from 30Hz to 600Hz - this is usually the only EQ needed as low end program can be filtered out as channels are mixed, thus preventing phasing and overload. The filter can be switched out using the hi-pass toggle switch. Insert points on each channel [rear - RCA] provide external processing access

Cue
Intelligent cue system. Large chromed push buttons on each channel - illuminated by blue LED. Single push operation and auto-cancelling. Headphone monitoring incorporates a ‘mix/cue’ preview control, headphone level, and bass-cut / HF-lift tone control. Front and rear headphone jacks are provided

Rotary Faders
Precision Penny & Giles conductive plastic rotary controls are provided to mix the level on each channel

Insert
Stereo Insert points [RCA] for each channel provide access to use external processing such as FX or EQ. Possible future options for V6 may interconnect here

Master Out
Rotary control for level. 2 band EQ providing +/- 6dB @ 80Hz and 10kHz. Balanced XLR outputs [+4dBu]. Insert points [TRS] & additional [TRS] jack -2dBu outputs and recording [RCA, -10dBV] outputs are also provided. Twin 1950s design illuminated VU meters provide accurate output level monitoring

Booth Monitor
Output is balanced XLR at +4dBu. With level control, and 2 band EQ providing +/-6dB @ 100Hz and 10kHz

PSU
Custom - external, wall-mount power supply with unique intelligent circuitry which checks and monitors the mains AC voltage, and automatically configures the supply to suit. Voltage ranges from 100-265V @ 50/60Hz can be tolerated. Output is 60V up to 2 Amps with very low noise

6 Valve Option
A high quality fiberglass PCB carrying 6 premium grade double triode valves (tubes). Each valve becomes an integral part of its channel’s pre-amplifier, adding the classic valve sound and “warmth” to any signals run through it. Careful circuit design ensures that noise and headroom are not compromised and the even harmonics associated with thermionic valve technology are enhanced. To fit the 6 valve module the sleeve and rear panel of the Xone:V6 assembly are simply removed and the existing two-valve PCB is replaced with the 6 valve version.

6 Valve Option - Specification
Valves 6 Premium grade double triode ECC82
PCB High quality double sided fiberglass
Noise <-100dBu channel insert, unity gain (measured 22Hz - 22kHz unweighted.
Phono input to balanced Mix output using Technics SL1210MK3D/Grado DJ200 cartridge <-84dBu (measured 22Hz - 22kHz unweighted)
Distortion 0.06% at 0dBu, 0.3% at +10dBu (mainly second harmonic)
Headroom +21dBu
Frequency Response 10Hz – 30kHz +0/-0.5dB

Nice