Hey mixgoonie,

Serato DJ and Scratch Live should sound the same post DJ version 1.8.0 (there used to be a software limiter which was applied to the Rane interfaces and mixers, which we removed). Which hardware are you using with both software? Also which hardware are you using with Intro?

Cheers,
Michael.

Big thanx for the answer but i do not agree.

it could be maybe right technically but with my ears, i hear clearly a difference, blind test give no mistake. There is something more on intro it sound much closer to the original MP3, that is no doubt. I really enjoy much more listening to my songs.

I do have SDJ since 1.7 and it has never sounded like that since i did not enjoy the sound already at that time ;)

Long sets are really nicer on Intro than SDJ

But as explained, in parties i will continue using SDJ since there are much more handy things and with PA speakers you don't have the time to care about such details.

But on different headphones and homestudio speakers (which are very precise), you can compare listening to the original MP3 and SDJ intro.

It seems i am not the only since some other people spoke about sound improvement request like it was under SSL. to take the exact sentence it was warmer like SSL.

I really understand now that sentance. Please provide optional possibility to have the exact same sound as in SSL/intro.

Hey mixgoonie,

Which hardware are you using with Scratch Live/DJ and Intro? The audio engine for SL/DJ is the same (now that the limiter is removed) so there shouldn't be a difference.

Cheers,
Michael.

Auto gain is prob most definitely the difference. I have compared auto gain on and off and with auto gain on the audio just sounds very flat not bassy or punchy more shitty sounding. I prefer it off cause it just sounds so much better. And if the master output level worked the same as SSL did in SDJ I think overall audio quality would improve. I've noticed sometimes the master output level in SDJ can sound very harsh sounding and it's not even maxed.

Not to sound like a broken record here, but it would be good to know which hardware you guys are using. The reason I ask is there a lot of factors at play, including the software and the soundcard in your hardware. For example Tecniq I see you use an S9, which will sound different from Scratch Live running a Rane device :)

If there are issues we definitely want to improve them, so apologies for asking the same questions over and over again but it is important :)

I use both the S9 and SB2. I don't think it's necessarily hardware related. Auto gain just sounds better being completely off with it checked it sounds dull imo. It does not matter which soundcard I'm using it is the software. Remember SDJ 1.7 your developers forgot to add master output level for the Rane boxes but ironically controller users had access to it in the software. lol that's what I'm talking about. It made no sense to have controller users have this option but Rane SL users didn't...then they realized the goofed and finally added it in a later 1.7 or 1.8 version I can't remember but I recall bitching about it. Haha

Hmm that's not exactly how it went, but sure ;)

So from your description, you're comparing auto gain on vs. auto gain off using an S9. I don't know for sure but I'm *assuming* that mixgoonie is talking something different (SL vs. DJ vs. Intro) so hardware would make a difference.

Regarding auto gain, which setting were you using?

92db. I use both the S9 and SB2. I have tested on a quality sound system with auto gain off the audio is more punchy and full when it's off it just sounds flat the bass is hardly there And sorry that is how it went down master output level was completely forgotten about in the earlier software updates for the Rane box users it wasn't till later it was finally added in for DVS users. Controller users didn't have to worry cause the master output level was always available for them in the software. I recall being the only one bitching about it that I had no master output level with my SL3😐

When it's on*

Here's the thread it was before 1.7 versions. Hook up a Rane box and see for yourself master output level was left out completely. serato.com

I know that Master Gain was left out, it's just that it wasn't an accident ;) Anyway that's all sorted now.

With Auto Gain, it's essentially like adjusting the gain/trim knob on your mixer - there is no limiting or EQ applied. So with that said if the track you're playing is louder than the Auto Gain setting, the gain level will be lowered and the track will be played back quieter. Is this what you are experiencing?

I do not agree on autogain since i always reset the gain (CTRL click on the knob), there is a difference, autogain off sounds always better even on SDJ.

To come back to the initial post, I am using a very flat soundcard with the MC 2000, autogain is disabled.

It is maybe the same engine but with 89db and autogain off, SDJ Intro high frequencies sounds closes to the original track. the instruments sound closer to the original MP3.

I will make a record comparison, take headphones with very precise spacing or homestudio speakers and you can hear a difference which is nicer on intro.


P.S : By the way, was the limiter always on in Intro/SSL or only when we where in the red.

I want to make sure we are not comparing apples vs oranges. I realize there are Heroes here who do not use AutoGain - I'm not one of them. I also realize there are Heroes trying to run AutoGain at a high value, like 92db - I'm not one of them either.

Therfore, are you saying that with both programs (Intro and DJ) set to 89db AutoGain ON, Intro sounds better than DJ, using all the same hardware??

Autogain disabled or not, intro is sounding better. I am always mixing autogain off at 89 on both SDJ and intro.

I am doing that because it sounds closer to the original MP3, but intro with autogain off 89db sound so dam better with the same settings on SDJ196.

You hear a sound difference but you feel it too, you feel that the mastering of the track is much more respected in intro than in SDJ. The spacing of the instruments and bass is also more respected closed to the original MP3.

I've compared intro and SDJ 196 on 3 different headphones, one with lot of high frequencies, a bassy one and a neutral one and also on homestudio speakers.

Sad thing is that i have a crappy soundcard, i should be doing the same test with a MC 4000 which i don't have to see what it gives on a much better soundcard.

Like I said, I always use AutoGain ON, set to 89db.

The one pinch I get is your using a Denon MC2000 - a USB port powered controller. I am not a lover of "USB Port Only" powered contriollers/soundcards. Serato DJ uses a lot more computer resources than Intro, perhaps making the USB port power to the soundcard in your controller borderline? Just a guess.

The style of sound is different between these, even with an interal soundcard of a laptop you can notice it and a good headphone.

Anyway, i've made a comparison recordf, same place in the song, same setup in SDJ or intro, same external soundcard to record and same software to record. Both placed at the exact same sound level (amplify-1 in audacity),

SDJ high freq are more harsh than on Intro, in the start the difference is really loud, you have the feeling SDJ is just at a higher volume but it is not, that is why i've used amplify in audacity to be absolutely sure the volume is the same.

To resume, SDJ sounds louder and more harsh than Intro.

Link to download : we.tl

Not absolutely sure with PA speaker you hear a difference, precise homestudio monitors are needed or a precise headphone.

Here's my findings...if I 92db is the default setting and it's too loud for some or whatever your reasons are then why did Serato make the 92db setting as default? Makes no damn sense to me lol...

You're right - just like two 15" two-ways on sticks, with no subs, is the default speakers for many DJ's. Makes no damn sense to me either.

I do agree on the default settings, but if you have listened to my link, the high frequencies are way to "loud" compared to the original MP3 or to SDJ Intro.

Why when we put at the lowest value 89db, the high frequencies still remain sounding loud ?

You do know that the setting (89db) is only enabled if "Use Auto Gain" is checked, right?

I use the 89db Auto Gain setting so my "economy friendly" controllers are not overloaded. :)
I make up the gain elsewhere.

I didnt know because I always reset the gain and so never used it.

Still the initial topic was sdj Vs sdj intro sound difference.

Has anybody listen to these mp3.

If you want the same sample difference with one of your mp3, send me a pm and I will make the same thing.

To finalize the testing, i've installed SSL and runned a test with my headphone HD 201 (lot of high frequencies in this headphones which makes it excellent to compare between two sound) and compared, SSL, Intro and SDJ with the interal soundcard of my laptop.

SSL and SDJ intro have the exact same sound, SDJ has more pronounced high frequencies, with the HD201 we do hear clearly the difference.

When someone requested the same warmth sound than in SSL for 1.9.7 and compared with SDJ with the same soundcard, i now understand what he does mean.

So clearly, SDJ has a worse sound than SSL and SDJ Intro, it is not the same sound.

Until that is getting improves, i am going back to intro, sad because i love the SDJ features...

they're never gonna admit it doesn't sound good, so you just have to use it or not.

the board went round and round with this about 2 yrs ago, until they scrapped the limiter and it was supposed to sound like ssl. I just assume theres nothing they can do to make it better so you just have accept it

Men I missed that warm sound of SSL. The problem is that am use to all the new features in SDJ. Oh well....

They don't have to admin it, just adding a feature SSL sound proves Serato is open to user request and maybe some people will still prefere the new sound but at least, all the people which are still using SSL won't have any excuse to definitively pass over to SDJ.

It is a win win situation with this ssl "feature".

Now maybe they lost the technical details about the SSL sound and they are unable to reproduce it.

thanks for the tests. i checked the files and the sdj file has roughly 1.8db more rms than the intro file. after compensating that i'm not sure whether i hear a difference anymore so if sdj does indeed sound differently it's *very* subtle.

Thanks to have listened to my sample

Strange there is a 1.8 db difference since with the amplify of audacity, i've putted the same level (-1)

Could it be the 1.8Db more is because of the high frequencies are louder in SDJ than Intro/SSL ?

i don't think so because after i adjusted the louder file's difference i didn't notice more high freqs in either file. i'd rather think that sdj appears to have more highs because it's louder

I know it is subtle and the test has been performed on a bad soundcard, what between the two samples do you prefer ?

If you want to test with a song you know very well, you can PM a download link which could tell you more than on a song you don't link.

well as i said, after reducing the sdj file by 1.8 both sounded the same to me. did you listen to both after turning the sdj file down by 1.8?

I've listened to them again, you are right, SDJ one is a bit louder.

There is a subtle difference, the high frequencies remain more natural, English is not my native language so hard to explain but on the high frequencies, there is a difference.

I take two MP3 players and adjusted the volume, passed from one to the other.

it's hard to compare since the volume is not the same. it'd have to be exactly the same for both files to get a real comparison

I've took MPC, and adjusted the same volume for both. So i can compare them but indeed, i could do another sample with different music styles.

Of course it's louder, look at the waveforms, but look very closely at the waveforms - not only is SDJ louder, it has more dynamic range. The "peaks" are being squashed in Intro.

If Intro is altering the sound so it sounds better to you, fine, but that DOES NOT MEAN it is more accurate. It is LESS accurate.

You are indeed right, that is probably the limiter that has been disabled from SDJ 1.7 and which still exist in SDJ intro/SSL.

the cut off peaks could also be caused by the recording or the post processing with audacity

used ssl and a rane mixer, so warm, so much bass, and so little harshness.

RIP Rane - SSL4LIFE

Clearly after mixing again a bit with intro a listening carefully, there is indeed a nice limiter even if the output is very low.

I really could be curious is someone could test a MC 4000 or 6000 MK2 with a bigger PA speaker setup and compare with SDJ.

Homestudio speaker are something, but PA speakers are another story.

R-A-C, both SDJ and intro has been recorded by audacity, then i think the post processing of audacity should give the same result for both, so i think indeed the limiter is making the main difference of sound between intro and SDJ. Unfotunately for me, i really clearly prefere the sound with the limiter.

Why has this been disabled by the way ? Mixvibes, Traktor, Djay pro and some others all have this functionality of a limiter and i don't think Traktor is only been runned by cheap hardware.

SSL just sounds better and thats a fact.

And SSL sounds exactly like sdj Intro, that is also a fact for me.

I will to perform that test too between sdj SSL and intro.

what exactly did you do in audacity?

Fine that it sounds better to you, but that's opinion, not fact, until scientifically proven otherwise.

Again, just opinion.

Good set of headphones like Sony MDR-7506 should do.

Most music these days has been limited/compressed to death already. While the OP seems to prefer the sound of even more of it is fine, but there has not been a single verifiable "fact" in this thread that Intro is better sounding than SDJ. Different, maybe, but not better.

R-A-C, i've recorded thought my audio DJ 4 with audacity since SDJ Intro has no internal recording ;) and then I did only amplify -1.

@Hanginon, you are right, it is a matter of choice, but by seeing the amount of topics, i am not the only one.

No honestly, as said in another topic, SDJ Intro have the exact same interface as SSL, same waveforms, same icons... I really doubt Serato have taken time and money to modify the sound engine of Intro for a free version software, so chances are really big it sounds exactly as SSL.

I was giving MC 4000 or 6000 MK2 as examples because they have good build in soundcard which my MC 2000 doesn't have. the idea is to test Intro with

Some DJ's have indeed the habit to overcompressed records which sounds nearly like songs played on the radio, but the good thing is that from what i see in House, progressive, trance, dance, it remain mostly exceptions. Only Uplifting trance style seems to have lot of producers with overcompressed songs. Now speaking about that, there is an issue since Spotify and youtube which compresses also a lot the songs (see loudness war articles about them), so the question can be, will this not be the future standard ? Because mostly people listen to Radio, Spotifiy and youtube, and these are all lot compressed audio sources.

okay, then we have to take a closer look at what that amplify function does exactly. whether maybe it's something like an rms normalize that has an included limiter and so on.

best would be not to do anything to the recording at all.

i took a different approach and tested itch, dj and sl in offline mode routed through
soundflower and by that getting a direct result of their output.
here are the test files:

www.sendspace.com

long story short: SSL is indeed different while dj and itch match exactly. and in case the link goes down at some point here's the included info file:


i also included a screenshot of the sample level zoom where you can see that the SSL file is shaped slighty differently.

Cool work did you had a chance to compare also with Serato DJ intro !

no, i only compared the full versions but for the sake of completeness adding intro to the test might be interesting

i tested intro the same way and it matches dj and itch exactly.

I'm curious about this myself I loved the sound of SSL I used to have the SL3 but now I have the S9 but I think it sounds pretty amazing as well. I do remember early versions of SDJ sounding like crap w/SL3 there was a big difference in quality sound in SDJ the bass/low end sounded muffled and not rich like SSL did however I do think SDJ's sound has improved since then. I was playing a gig and just thought the quality of my QSC system wasn't like I was used to there was definitely a difference when I switched back to SSL it was like the sound was just more pure and rich. It was more defined as SDJ just wasn't up to par. Well I can no longer test anymore results cause I sold the SL3 but have been happy with the S9 and the sound quality from SDJ.

Crazy, did a fresh comparison between intro and sdj at hard volume and even my wife hear clearly a difference without telling there should be a difference.

So could someone test a very high volume intro or itch Vs sdj ?

then the reason is something else. the output of intro matched dj and itch exactly.

Ok so the issue is on my controller...

as a follow up here i did a real world listening test comparing SL and DJ. both on the same os with an sl4 (in 48khz mode tho, not 96).
anyway, the difference was more noticable than the results of my purely digital tests above would suggest. SL is clearly softer, fuller and warmer across the board. DJ in comparison is harsher, sharper and more aggressive.

however, in the end that's a matter of taste. compared to the competition they both sound great anyway.

This might not be the correct place to ask this, sorry if it's a bit off topic, but....
Has anyone noticed a difference in sound quality between SDJ & CDJ's?
I'm using a Denon 8000, plugged into a old Pioneer DJM1000 at the club.
I also have 2 CDJ2000's plugged into the other channels with the exact same music on usb stick as a backup in case laptop failure etc.
With the input levels (meters) matched between cdj's & 8000, The cdj's sound waaaaaay cleaner & punchier than the 8000. Don't know if it's a Serato or Controller issue really.

I think Serato should organise a blind test and depend on the results add ssl sound as feature if it gets lot of positive comments.

Because what matters at the end is the feeling of your music so that it doesn't sound harsh but make you dance...

Now that is a fair assessment!



Whatever differences there are, they probably will be small compared to the differences the speakers and the room make. Hey, that' one of the reasons for EQ!

thanks :-)


only to some extend. if for example the device has a not so great resolution and certain parts of the song don't "show up" as they should you can equalize all you want. what's not there can't be created afterwards.