Beatgrids Randomly Disappear (Detailed Troubleshooting)

Andrei Matei 7:52 PM - 1 January, 2013

Hi All,

I've seen sporadic postings here and there on this topic but nothing comprehensive. I've dug deeper into the bug where beatgrids will randomly disappear after they are locked if you edit a tag on the track at a later point in time. I've spent nearly 15 hours trying every possible combination here to get down to the bottom of the problem, but it is truly random in how it occurs after the track tag edit. The only certain thing is, it will happen, and if you edit your tags, you WILL lose your grid at some point. I've lost days of gridding and re-gridding due to this over the past several months. :(

More info:
- I've got beatgrids to show up in offline & online mode as I registered and activated Ableton correctly
- This problem works if you set and work with beatgrids in either offline OR online mode, doesn't matter. Tried originally creating the grids in either mode.
- Running Ableton or not running it while gridding renders no change on the issue.

Workflow:
- Analyze a track in offline mode
- Adjust and set grid (in either offline or online mode)
- Lock grid
- Edit another tag on the track (color label, genre, key, anything)
- Randomly, when you go back to the track, usually after a program restart or several, the grid is completely gone, though the grid is still marked as "locked" on the file. It seems completely random as to how soon or when the grid is removed so this is why this elusive problem may have evaded lots of people (including me at first). I've edited a tag on a song once or edited several tags many many times before a grid goes away. There is no pattern, totally random.

I can post a track if someone wants to look at an example mp3 but it I doubt it would help as the information in the mp3 for the grid is truly wiped by SSL. No question about it. This is also on a clean, brand new install of OS X 10.8. Creating a fresh library database file doesn't resolve the issue. Tried it on multiple Macs too. Also tried it when songs are on an external HD and also on an internal HD. Same problem.

Has anyone ever successfully used the grids for a long period of time while constantly updating and editing tags to improve your library collection? If so, and you haven't experienced this, I'd like to know how. Help!

I hope a future version of SSL will include native beatgrid support, not for any syncing reasons, but just for easy phrasing/counting while prepping tracks. (This request has been logged many times in the past, just echo'ing its support.) Perhaps native support will resolve the bug.

As it stands now, I see our two options as:
- Use beatgrids if you NEVER edit or modify any tag of any sort (even comments, or color markers)
- Don't use beatgrids at all.

:( Sad times.

Andrei

Andrei Matei 12:19 AM - 2 January, 2013

As a follow-up to my above explanation, I have recorded 4 individual screencasts demonstrating the randomness of this issue. In each screencast, I start by quickly setting grids on each song in the "deep house" crate. (Note, I'm not actually setting the grids meticulously, just setting them quickly for example purposes.)

After the grids are set and locked, I go about changing tags, clicking across crates, and restarting Serato. Over and over again. Just standard usage stuff over time. In each example, I following the same general workflow of changing and updating the tags and restarting. Nothing is specifically different in any one of the examples. You'll see that the issue pops up entirely randomly, sometimes as soon as 5 min in, sometimes as long as 40 min in. Again, pay special attention to the "deep house" crate as I use it in each of my examples.

I've sped up each of these videos to 200%. Even so, they are quite long, so they're only for the most patient of viewers. You can fast-forward to the times listed below to see the problem pop up. I hope these will help someone on the Serato team with troubleshooting.

All of the files are hosted on the Rackspace Cloud via Akamai CDN caching so they should be very quick to pull down. They are .mov in format.

Try #1 - Online mode. 5 min 30 sec video, sped up to 2:50. Problem demonstrated at 2:20. 8f00f0fdedfbaf7442f6-67cc3e2e8f7f4e141f2331d3bb1005a2.r94.cf1.rackcdn.com (37MB)

Try #2 - Online mode. 30 min video, sped up to 14:30. Problem demonstrated at 14:25. 8f00f0fdedfbaf7442f6-67cc3e2e8f7f4e141f2331d3bb1005a2.r94.cf1.rackcdn.com (210MB)

Try #3 - Online mode. 7 min video, sped up to 3:30. Problem demonstrated at 3:20. 8f00f0fdedfbaf7442f6-67cc3e2e8f7f4e141f2331d3bb1005a2.r94.cf1.rackcdn.com (26MB)

Try #4 - Offline mode. 42min video, sped up to 21:00. First problem on one track happened half way through but its hard to see sped up. Rest of tracks exhibit problem at 20:40 8f00f0fdedfbaf7442f6-67cc3e2e8f7f4e141f2331d3bb1005a2.r94.cf1.rackcdn.com (249MB)

I've spent most of the day creating these videos so I hope it can help shed some light on the situation. If anyone needs regular speed versions, please let me know. Those are much bigger but also a little easier to follow along with.

Thanks.

Andrei

8:49 PM, 2 Jan 2013

Discussion moved to The Bridge Help

Andrei Matei 8:55 PM - 2 January, 2013

Mods: Thanks for moving this. Sorry, I should have thought to put this here from the start!

Martin C 1:23 AM - 9 January, 2013

Hey Andrew Matei,

Thanks for the all information you have provided, as well as the videos :)

I was wondering if you were able to send me a few of the files that this reliably happens with, so I can do some testing.

Quite often this problem relates to file permission issues, but in some cases, Scratch Live could be a lot better at tagging files properly.

Quote:

I hope a future version of SSL will include native beatgrid support, not for any syncing reasons, but just for easy phrasing/counting while prepping tracks.

I can certainly agree with this request, I am hopeful it will happen in a forthcoming version, unfortunately i don't know when!

Thanks.

8:45 AM, 9 Jan 2013

Andrei Matei attached a file: Kleeer - Tonight (Cézaire Rework) (116bpm, 10A).mp3

Download· Permalink

Andrei Matei 9:17 AM - 9 January, 2013

Martin!

Thanks so much for writing. I really appreciate it! So, I've had a breakthrough!!! It's not a *good* breakthrough, but a breakthrough none-the-less. I think it will help us with this bug.

Forget the videos from above. I figured out how to reproduce the problem consistently, reliably, and quickly, EVERY TIME. Here are the steps:

1.) Open SSL and drag an mp3 to a playlist from your HD
2.) Adjust its beat grid and lock it. (green lock appears)
3.) Unload track or play another track so tag information is written
4.) Close Serato
5.) Open Serato
6.) Do NOT load the file into the player or a deck.
7.) Edit a tag on the file. Changes are automatically written to the file.
8.) Close Serato after status bar at bottom notifying of writing tag edits goes away.
9.) Open Serato
10.) Load file in player/deck. Green lock is prevalent. All track metadata and cues are there, BUT THE BEATGRID IS GONE!

Boom. That's it. That's the bug.

I've uploaded an MP3 that it just happened on. I can get it to happen on ANY MP3. If you need me to upload more, just ask and I'm happy to.

The file's permissions are 777:
-rwxrwxrwx@ 1 Andrei staff 9626951 Jan 9 02:49 Kleeer - Tonight (Cézaire Rework) (116bpm, 10A).mp3

Or in OS X Finder-speak, it is: Andrei (me): Read & Write, staff (group): Read & Write, everyone: Read & Write.

I just tried the same process with a file that I made 644, so Andrei (me): Read & Write, staff (group): Read, everyone: Read. Same issue persists.

The only workaround (which isn't really one) is to make the files on the HD Read-Only (gray lock) at the OS level after you have set all of your cue points, tags, beat-grids, etc. Doing so, of course, makes the grids always stay no matter what. Issue there is having to change permissions on each file at the OS level when you want to adjust a comment, etc. is not really an ideal solution for workflow reasons.

So, I feel its really not a permissions thing but a bug with the grids/Bridge in SSL. As a side note, I just tried these same steps with Itch 2.2.2 and the bug is not present there.

Please let me know if you can reproduce this easily. If not, I'm happy to record another video. This one won't be a million minutes long this time since I've figured out the consistent pattern. :)

Looking forward to your feedback and help with this!

Andrei

Colin F 5:11 PM - 9 January, 2013

Hi Martin, I'm Andrei's co-DJ usually, so figured I would try to help as well.

I successfully replicated the issue using Andrei's steps above in SSL. Once your tracks are gridded, the critical parts are what happens after you open Serato and before you close/reopen. Here are the extra tests I did, all starting with steps 1-5 (gridding, then close/open) as above.

TEST A - edit tag, then load
6) edit file tags in the library
7) now load the track into serato (then load another one to write tags)
8) close
9) open
10) load track (grid gone)

Deleted beatgrid
-----
TEST B - edit tag, then load (switch steps 6 and 7 from TEST A)
6) load the track into serato (then load another one to write tags)
7) edit original file tags in library
8) close
9) open
10) load track

No issue.
------
TEST C - load, unload, edit tag
Here's my last test, where I edit the original tag AFTER loading it into Serato
6) load original track
7) load another track
8) edit original tags
9) close
10) open
11) load

No issue.
----

The commonalities are that Tests B & C, you load the track prior to editing tags, and result is no issue. On Andrei's test, and my Test A, you edit before loading, with a result of deleted beatgrid. I was able to replicate all 4 tests at least twice each.

So it seems the existing workaround is to never edit tags of a track you have not yet loaded. In fact, to be even more careful, you should only edit the tags of a track CURRENTLY LOADED. Forget about ever using the batch-tagging functionality.

Hope that helps! I'm on Mac OSX 10.8.2, SSL 2.4.3 (24321).

-Colin

Colin F 5:16 PM - 9 January, 2013

(and I'm also using the bridge)

Colin F 5:22 PM - 9 January, 2013

whoops, Test B is the same as Test C the way I described it here. just pretend Test B doesnt exist.

Martin C 12:36 AM - 14 January, 2013

Hey guys,

I managed to successfully reproduce this according to your instruction.

With your test Colin:

Quote:

TEST A - edit tag, then load
6) edit file tags in the library
7) now load the track into serato (then load another one to write tags)
8) close
9) open
10) load track (grid gone)

Deleted beatgrid

When you say edit tag in the first sentence, are your referring to the lock beatgrid function as the tag editing?

Otherwise, I couldn't get it to happen with your instruction, but I could easily with the instructions Andrei posted. I will be logging this as a bug so that it can hopefully be resolved in a forthcoming update.

Colin F 4:40 AM - 14 January, 2013

Cool, thanks for replicating the tests.

By "edit tags" I meant changing the text in the "comments" field. (with the track already locked, from step 2).

Hope that helps!

Andrei Matei 4:21 PM - 14 January, 2013

Hey Martin,

Thanks for reviewing and replicating our steps. Much appreciated! We'd be happy to help you with testing for this issue in any upcoming betas. Please just let us know if you would like us to look over anything for your team.

Thanks,

Andrei

Martin C 4:29 AM - 16 January, 2013

Thanks guys.

Hey Colin, sorry but I still can't get it to happen by following your instructions:

Quote:

TEST A - edit comments, then load
6) edit file tags in the library
7) now load the track into serato (then load another one to write tags)
8) close
9) open
10) load track (grid gone)

Deleted beatgrid

\

Any chance you could make a quick video, or just clarify these steps a little bit more? Thanks :)

Colin F 4:57 PM - 17 January, 2013

My process (A) is essentially starting with a track that has beatgrids and is locked. Then open Scratch, edit the comments for that track in the library, and THEN load it into the player. The grid is still there at this point. Then I just load some other track into the player to make sure it is finished with our original song. Close Serato. Re-open and pull the original track in, and the beatgrid is gone.

And this is without a Serato box connected.

Let me get with Andrei this weekend and we'll try it on his setup and make a video.

-Colin

Martin C 2:38 AM - 18 January, 2013

Ah ok, that might not be necessary. I can now reproduce the issue easily with the instructions you have provided.

Since this was implemented in Scratch live 2.4.3, this issue doesn't exist in previous versions, however it would definitely be worth having fixed.

I want to thank you guys once again for helping me with this, I will log it with these clear instructions and refer developers and testers to this discussion for further reference.

Cheers!

Colin F 4:04 PM - 18 January, 2013

Oh great, glad you can experience it now!

Like Andrei mentioned, we mainly use it for setting up cues and track prep, but for people who are actually doing live performance alongside Ableton, this could really cause problems.

I would definitely love to have the numbered grids native to the software, as in Itch.

Glad to help. Let us know if you need any more details. And thanks for looking into it.
-Colin

Martin C 9:14 AM - 19 January, 2013

Thanks Colin!

Quote:

I would definitely love to have the numbered grids native to the software, as in Itch.

I must say, the more I hear this feature request, the more I like the idea of it :) I hope we can get it there some day soon.

I will close this thread up, but feel free to post back up here if you have any other questions or have any new information you feel is useful to share. (Andrei will only be able to post as he is the help request author.)

Cheers!

Andrei Matei 1:00 AM - 15 July, 2013

Hi All,

With the release of SSL 2.5, I re-checked this issue to see if it has been resolved. In the release notes, "Fixed bug where the Beatgrid Lock wasn't being saved and loaded to/from the file" lead me to believe it has been and I got really excited!

Unfortunately, the problem still persists and can be reproduced in 2.5 with the same steps as above. Was that bug in reference to something else?

Just wanted to give the Serato team a heads up on this in case its helpful!

Andrei

Martin C 5:16 AM - 15 July, 2013

Hey Andrei,

Yes I can still reproduce the same issue in Scratch Live 2.5. I have updated the bug report accordingly.

Sorry to get you excited mate! I believe the fixed bug was in relation to a separate issue, where the beatgrid locks weren't transferring across from other Serato software (Serato DJ or ITCH) and so you could lock a beatgrid there, but when you brought the file across to Scratch Live you could still edit the BPM/Beatgrid etc.

Cheers.

Andrei Matei 5:39 AM - 15 July, 2013

Thanks Martin! I'll keep going with my workaround of making files Read-Only at the file system a while longer. :)

Best to you,

Andrei

Martin C 5:46 AM - 15 July, 2013

Hmm! Interesting workaround.

All the best Andrei :)

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Beatgrids Randomly Disappear (Detailed Troubleshooting)

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