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"Snow Leopard" OS X 10.6.8 working fine on current-model 17-inch MBP.
Talk about Serato Video and Video-SL.

"Snow Leopard" OS X 10.6.8 working fine on current-model 17-inch MBP.

DJMark 6:10 AM - 17 April, 2012
Since this may help others who are unhappy with "Lion" for whatever reason(s), I figure this is worth its own thread.

New computer: MacBook Pro 8,3 ("Late 2011"), standard 2.4gHz quad-core configuration. It arrived with "Lion" OS X 10.7.2 installed. I removed the stock 750gb hard drive to preserve the Lion installation for possible future use.

Note: this computer is just a minor speed-bump of the earlier "Early 2011" MacBook Pros that originally shipped with Snow Leopard, and in fact the model identifier numbers (8,1 8,2 and 8,3) are the same for each model in both generations. If a more major hardware change (such as a new chipset) had occurred with the newer machines shipping with Lion, it is very unlikely that an older OS would work at all.

Drives installed: 240gb OCZ Vertex 3 in the computer's hard drive bay (for OS/apps), 1tb Western Digital WD10JPVT mounted to Other World Computing "Drive Doubler" in place of the optical. This physical arrangement in the new computer is the opposite of what I had before, because the SATA connection for optical drives in the current 15/17-inch MBP's does NOT work stably at SATA-3 (6gb/sec) speeds. It works fine at SATA-2 (3gb-sec) speed, which is all the 1tb WD drive supports.

After preliminary testing on the new machine with an OS X 10.6.8 install cloned from the old and running from a Firewire enclosure, I moved both drives from my older "Mid-2010" MacBook Pro 6,1 into the new one.

After doing that, everything seemed to be fine except I could not seem to disable the "Sudden Motion Sensor" on the new system. Terminal command seemed to work, but checking System Profiler indicated SMS still on. Problem fixed after running 10.6.8 Combo Updater (even though 10.6.8 was already running). There were then some Software items for the newer computer's Thunderbolt and EFI firmware that were successfully installed.

As I've mentioned before, when cloning (or simply moving) an OS install from one machine to another, immediately running the Combo Update for the desired OS version is advised to be sure all software resources for the new hardware are actually in place.

Had to manually reset some preferences for Display (the calibration I'd created), and a few other items. No surprises, since some of the settings are stored in the computer's PRAM not in preference files.

Result: everything seems to be working just fine. Tested SL 2.2 and ME 2.0 on both TTM-57 and 68 mixers for extended periods. Only issue found was the known problem of the TTM-57 requiring the computer to be booted into 32 bit mode with a pre-2.3 version of SL.

The new computer seems way faster than I might have expected compared to my older "mid-2010" model, and while running SL and ME the newer machine seems to be running about 10-12C cooler. (This comparison done after cleaning out both the heatsinks and fans on the older machine :-). There is a LOT more of a real speed increase between the 2010 and 2011 models than there was between the 2009 and 2010 models.

The reason I did all that with the OS: I've been hearing way too many reports of Lion taking more resources than Snow Leopard (comparing on same hardware), as well as a lot of reports of less-reliable performance with certain audio/video apps (some of these reports in this forum). After careful consideration, realized I need exactly NONE of the new features of Lion, and have been having consistently excellent results with Snow Leopard.

Hope this information helps others. Be sure to BACK UP EVERYTHING if you decide to try this, and I strongly advise saving the original Lion installation...might need that later.
DJMark 8:55 AM - 19 April, 2012
Guess this topic is of less interest to others than I might have thought...
DJ DisGrace 11:53 AM - 19 April, 2012
Quote:
Guess this topic is of less interest to others than I might have thought...

if I could afford a current MacBook Pro, I would be all over this! damn student loans...
nik39 1:00 PM - 19 April, 2012
Quote:
After doing that, everything seemed to be fine except I could not seem to disable the "Sudden Motion Sensor" on the new system. Terminal command seemed to work, but checking System Profiler indicated SMS still on. Problem fixed after running 10.6.8 Combo Updater (even though 10.6.8 was already running).

Scary.
popnwave 1:31 PM - 19 April, 2012
@DJMark I think a lot more people have viewed this than commented. It's good info and glad you posted your findings. It looks like Snow Leopard is the equivalent to the coveted stability of Win XP for people using Serato. My rig works fine in Lion but I did notice a little more waveform slow downs after I upgraded. It wasn't enough to warrant rolling back my OS but it seemed to tax my '09 MBP a bit more.
DJMark 7:01 PM - 19 April, 2012
Nik....nothing scary at all. It's in line with behavior I've seen before when using a cloned (or transplanted) OS installation on a different Mac.

The standard solution is to run the desired "Combo Updater". Unless the new machine is one that actually ships with a "non-standard" Mac OS build (that was the case with my Early 2009 17-inch MBP, for example), OR you're attempting to run a version of the Mac OS that the new computer simply will not support, running the Combo Updater will ensure all the needed resources for the hardware in the new machine are installed.

Anyway the new computer is working fine, I've used it for two six-hour nights so far as well as a 24-hour intermittently-attended autoplay test. "Intermittent" meaning at times I played around live during that test, the rest of the time it was running in autoplay with both decks at +50% with keylock on, and Mix Emergency also running. As of now I've used it with SL-1, SL-4, TTM57SL, and 68. Since I'm still using SL 2.2, the 57 requires booting into 32-bit mode. Otherwise no issues found.
DJMark 7:45 PM - 19 April, 2012
BTW, why I did all this now (knowing new "Ivy Bridge" MacBook Pros are likely to be released pretty soon):

1) Ivy Bridge is a pretty small step in terms of speed/horsepower: www.anandtech.com

2) Any new "Ivy Bridge" MacBook Pros will almost definitely not support Snow Leopard;

3) My own testing and hearing/reading of other people's experiences with Lion reveals it to be a generally degraded experience in terms of both stability and speed as compared with Snow Leopard. Also some compatibility issues with some software I use, and user-interface changes I don't like.

4) Possibility that new MacBook Pro models may be redesigned for slimness, which may include eliminating the optical drive and therefore the possibility for adding a second hard drive.

5) I needed a new machine and happened to find a deal that was too good to pass up.

If you don't happen to need a new machine right now, it probably makes sense to see what Apple does with the next revision (who knows, they *might* come out with a 17-inch model with no optical but three conventional hard drive bays :-).
StevenWayne 7:49 PM - 19 April, 2012
good info there mark
DJMark 6:07 AM - 20 April, 2012
Good to hear that some found this useful. Was just wondering a bit after a couple days of no responses at all went by...

Maybe also worth mentioning here that the "unofficially-supported" 2x8 16gb RAM configuration seems to be working just fine as well...though Apple is only officially supporting 8gb in the current MBP's. More or less common knowledge by now since these machines have been around for awhile. I would guess the main trade-off is battery life (larger RAM amounts=more battery use).
ClubBusta 1:42 PM - 20 April, 2012
mark i found this really helpful thank you for taking the time to post it. that cleared up alot for me.
AKIEM 7:54 AM - 22 April, 2012
Thanks for the info
Im running 10.6.8 and havnt had a reason to upgrade yet - more reason not to if it runs more efficiently
Dj Nyce 5:21 PM - 22 April, 2012
i'm running 10.7.3 with absolutely zero issues so my interest in 10.6.8 is nil. i am also running 16GB, 512 SSD and 1TB Samsung M8.

glad it's working for you tho.
nik39 7:53 PM - 22 April, 2012
Jinx.

I wanted to post that I dont have any issues with 10.7.x

Looks like this weekend has proven that I am wrong. After using video for a few minutes, the graphics on the machine here (late 2011, 10.7.3) seems to slow down and everything begins to stutter. Just started to happen after the last update I think.

On my early 2011 MacBook Pro (which runs slower, with a less powerful GPU) - no issues. It is running 10.6.8.

Next thing I will try to do: Running 10.6.8 on the late 2011 MBP from the early 2011 MBP in Firewire target mode. Just to test whether it really has to do with 10.7.x.
Niro 8:28 PM - 22 April, 2012
I went back to 10.6.8, had some driver issues with the 57 with lion. I'm also on a 2011 quad-core, with a 480 SSD. Didn't notice a difference in performance from 10.6.8 to 10.7.2
nik39 9:11 AM - 23 April, 2012
Wow, just double checked, and the gfx really begin to stutter a lot on 10.7.3. Works fine on 10.6.8! Time to test the combo update "trick".
nik39 11:03 AM - 23 April, 2012
Combo Update didn't make a difference.
Dj Nyce 2:56 PM - 23 April, 2012
really nik? i get consistent 60 fps @ 800x600. 2 videos, effects, qtc overlay, image overlay and text overlay on. With WIFI/BT on i get 50-55 fps.

no stuttering, no lag.
nik39 6:07 PM - 23 April, 2012
His issue just popped up. I can easily reproduce this in 10.7.3. But it only is obvious when using vga, not when using dvi or hdmi.
DJMark 9:05 PM - 23 April, 2012
Quote:
Combo Update didn't make a difference.


If you were Combo Updating the Lion install, and that OS install was originally done on the same machine, I wouldn't expect it to make any difference.

The purpose of my running the 10.6.8 "Combo Update" after moving the OS/apps SSD from my old to my new MBP was to ensure all needed drivers etc. are actually installed for the newer hardware.

As a matter of "utmost caution", I always run Combo Updates for normal OS updates anyway (rather than letting Software Update install the "Delta Updates"). That approach in general seems to minimize problems, and has been recommended by various software vendors like Digidesign for a long time for that reason.
nik39 7:16 AM - 24 April, 2012
Quote:
The purpose of my running the 10.6.8 "Combo Update" after moving the OS/apps SSD from my old to my new MBP was to ensure all needed drivers etc. are actually installed for the newer hardware.

Gotcha.
nik39 10:46 AM - 24 April, 2012
Damned.. how do I get hold of a fresh 10.7.0 DMG? I wanted to do a fresh 10.7.0 install, but it installed 10.7.3 instead.
nik39 5:40 PM - 26 April, 2012
So these are my results:

Using ME 2.0, SL 2.3.3, two SD mp4 files from Smashvidz
SL with SL4, 1ms USB, 60 refresh rate
ME 100% quality slider, transition didnt make any difference

Two laptops:
Laptop A: 2.3 GHz, i7, 15", 10.6.8 (Early 2011) AMD Radeon HD 6750M, 1GB
Laptop B: 2.5 Ghz, i7, 15", 10.7.3 (Late 2011) AMD Radeon HD 6770M, 1GB

Using an analog VGA adapter, 1024x768, 60Hz:
A: No stuttering, almost constant 60fps
B: 30 sec stuttering (severe), then 90 sec ok

Using an analog VGA adapter, 1680x1050, 60Hz:
A: 10 sec stuttering (not so bad), then 60 sec ok
B: 15 sec stuttering (bad), then 15 sec ok

Using an DVI adapter, 1680x1050, 60Hz:
A: 5 sec stuttering (not so bad), then 40 sec ok
B: 10 sec stuttering (bad), then 10 sec ok

Using an DVI adapter, 1024x768, 60Hz:
A: 5 sec stuttering (not so bad), then 5 sec ok
B: 5 sec stuttering (not so bad), then 5 sec ok

Using an DVI adapter, 1024x768, 60Hz:
A: 5 sec stuttering (not so bad), then 5 sec ok
B: Was not possible for some reason.

So for me the stuttering is worse in 10.7.0/2/3. Damned it. I am just surprised that I haven't realized this earlier. Always thought that with this powerful machine I should get a constant fps of 60 (or whatever the ext screen is set to). So much about Macs being th3 b35t.

It's interesting to note that disabling "Synchronize Output to Screen Refresh" makes things worse.

(Just to make sure that it has nothing to do with the hardware itself, I booted Laptop A into firewire target mode and booted Laptop B off Laptop A's harddrive. Results as expected... not depending on the hardware, but on the OS verison. Also tried vice versa. Results as expected.)
DJMark 11:46 PM - 26 April, 2012
Thanks for all that detail. I'm confused by your last two results:

Quote:
Using an DVI adapter, 1024x768, 60Hz:
A: 5 sec stuttering (not so bad), then 5 sec ok
B: 5 sec stuttering (not so bad), then 5 sec ok

Using an DVI adapter, 1024x768, 60Hz:
A: 5 sec stuttering (not so bad), then 5 sec ok
B: Was not possible for some reason.


Was one of these actually using analog VGA, or at a different resolution? Or was this just illustrating that different results happened with the same settings at different times?
nik39 12:14 AM - 27 April, 2012
Ah damn. The last one was at 75Hz.
DJMark 12:18 AM - 27 April, 2012
Got it.

Curious if you did any checking of CPU load on the two OS versions? In my (much less comprehensive) tests, it seemed like overall CPU load was quite a bit higher when using Lion...your results suggest the same.
nik39 12:19 AM - 27 April, 2012
Thanks for pointing it out.

The given times in seconds may not be accurate, they just shoukd give you an idea.

When I mean stuttering then I mean the stuttering on the sl gui (waveforms etc). Just realized it this weekend because I had trouble working with the monitors so I tried to use the display. The video itself slightly stutters, most likely not noticeable for the average club visitors.
nik39 12:22 AM - 27 April, 2012
I didn't see any obvious noticeable difference in cpu load. Actually.. These machines are du powerful.. They are bored when playing videos. ;-) it just seems as the graphic subsystem is acting all weird.
DJMark 6:33 AM - 3 May, 2012
Just FYI...10.6.8 still working great on the "Late 2011" 17-inch MBP.
StevenWayne 10:40 PM - 3 May, 2012
thanks for all the updates man, i've been tracking this thread and the other one
cherpitel 12:42 AM - 5 March, 2013
DJMark, sir, thank you for ineresting discussion. I am looking for used highest end 17-inch to run Snow Leopard & researching.

Plan to replace internal drives with hi-grade dual solid states. As photographer i process large foto files, & will also put eSata card in for faster external storage

Under standard Apple data, there are only the mid-2010 & early 2011 MB pros that shipped with snow leopard. I am wondering if you system is still working well today, which would open the window for a later 2011 machine. thanks-------simón
skinnyguy 12:50 AM - 5 March, 2013
works fine for me
cherpitel 1:12 AM - 5 March, 2013
thanks----which model do you have?
DJMark 4:57 AM - 5 March, 2013
As the subject line and my post should have made clear, the "Late 2011" 17-inch worked just fine with Snow Leopard.

I've since upgraded that computer (now my backup) to Mountain Lion so I have the same OS and SL/ME versions on it as my new primary (mid-2012 15-inch). It works fine with Mountain Lion as well.

Note that, at the time of my original post, Lion was actually the current OS. It had many more problems/bugs than does the current version of Mountain Lion. For SL use on a recent-model MBP, I see no real reason to hang back with Snow Leopard.

If you're doing video, you're actually missing out on some video performance enhancements with Mountain Lion.

Older machines probably are better off with Snow Leopard due to Mountain Lion using more resources for certain things (graphics for one).
cherpitel 5:08 AM - 5 March, 2013
thanks DJMark ---- i like snow leopard because i'm mainly running lots of fotos & have a lot of legacy programs that need rosetta. And i use older machines - an early or mid 2009 power mac & i think i've located a good early 2011 17-inch, which i intend to upgrade with solid state drives. best wishes-------simón
DJMark 7:33 AM - 5 March, 2013
No problem. If you really need Rosetta, I guess that's a determining factor since Apple yanked support after Snow Leopard.

SSD for at least the OS/apps is a great upgrade. I wholeheartedly recommend the Samsung 840 Pro series. Competitively-priced, great performance, and low power-consumption/heat.
cherpitel 7:58 AM - 5 March, 2013
The SSD i'll have installed are a military grade 5-year warranty pair from the designer/inventor in LA---someone i've been acquainted with for years ----more expensive but the long-term reliability & super speed is a deal-maker. I've heard about the questionable longevity of SSDs in general. Their capacity is far less than the apple drives, but i'm consistently dealing with huge foto files -- the D800 --- jpegs alone are 25 megs each & the RAW go up to 75MB after correction in Nikon View 2X----so the transfer speed to external backup drives is a major consideration, & the SSD can take full advantage of the FW800 or better an eSATA connect or the thunderbolt if anyone is making a 3 TB yet. We were going to upgrade my i5 15 inch, but the i7 17 inch is better & tonight bought an early 2011 on amazon.
cherpitel 8:02 AM - 5 March, 2013
PS --- thank you very much for your input----very appreciated & glad to have met you.
simón cherpitel cherpitel.com
skinnyguy 9:45 PM - 5 March, 2013
djmark - it's the late 2011 model, 17", i7...i think 2.5 or 2.6? came with snow leopard. got it right when lion was released.
Dj Wunder 7:54 AM - 9 March, 2013
Just picked up an early 2011 17" MBP and reverted from Lion to Snow Leopard, partly due to the information here, thanks guys!
Code:E 10:55 PM - 9 March, 2013
Quote:
Just picked up an early 2011 17" MBP and reverted from Lion to Snow Leopard, partly due to the information here, thanks guys!

I have that same laptop and run mountain lion better than snow leopard ran. I had lion too it sucked.
DJMark 1:15 AM - 10 March, 2013
Lion was pretty much a nightmare for a lot of people in various ways.

Note (again) that when this thread was started, Lion was then then-current OS.

On 2011 or newer hardware, for video DJ-ing Mountain Lion is probably the best choice.

Exceptions would be scenarios like requiring the use of older software that's incompatible with Mountain Lion.

Most of the little "annoyances" that Lion/Mountain Lion introduced can be easily shut off. Took me maybe an hour of googling to figure most of that stuff out.

The one thing I do miss is the "four finger no confirmation shutdown"...that still works, but if you do it with open applications they all relaunch the next time you start the machine. Minor annoyance to have to quit everything manually before shutting down to prevent that (or use the menu/confirmation dialog).
Dj Wunder 10:54 AM - 10 March, 2013
So I've heard friends compassion about the loss of iDVD in Mountain Lion. Is there a way to get it back? Or what alternatives are you ML guys using to create and burn DVDs?
Dj Wunder 10:54 AM - 10 March, 2013
*complain, not compassion. Grr
Millz 11:03 AM - 10 March, 2013
Im running a late 2011 17 inch beast with the newest build of Mountain Lion with zero problems. This build has prob been the smoothest in regards to running Serato, Serato Video and Mix Emergency.
the SOUNDINSURGENT 5:50 AM - 11 March, 2013
Quote:
So I've heard friends compassion about the loss of iDVD in Mountain Lion. Is there a way to get it back? Or what alternatives are you ML guys using to create and burn DVDs?


This one works, burn-osx.sourceforge.net
Dj Wunder 5:58 AM - 11 March, 2013
Quote:
Quote:
So I've heard friends compassion about the loss of iDVD in Mountain Lion. Is there a way to get it back? Or what alternatives are you ML guys using to create and burn DVDs?


This one works, burn-osx.sourceforge.net


Hmm. Thanks. That's hardly iDVD though, think I'll stick with 10.6.8
Joshua Carl 4:43 PM - 11 March, 2013
im also running the 2011 17" with 10.6.8 since it came like that in the package...

no issues :)