i like it this way. you should set your master out so when it goes in the red, whatever you are plugged into starts to go into the red and leave it. use your other outputs for monitor or subs and adjust to taste.

the master out LED display is perfect for when recording your mixes

Thats how rane mixers work.

The output gains(booth, session main) ONLY attenuate the signal. If you want full level output these must be a max position.

This works great as you always get a good level on the meter even if you have to turn master down for a little. This also allows you to do recordings(main mix) within SL with master knob having no effect.

This is an excellent design.

I have to differ on this one. If you have the master output selected it will show on the meters what the output signal level is not the channel level and it it very helpful when you cant see your amp lights or tell when your clipping.

As of right now. my master level meters show im in the red before i even turn the master on.

Can this be addressed with a firmware update so one can choose or just use the meters on the lines to show PFL and have the master levels show the master output level?

I agree, it should be more like Pioneer mixers where turning up the master and the LED shows the actual level of the signal being sent to the house amps.

Think of the master level knob as the attenuator on the back of the Pioneer mixers.
You can turn this up as loud as you want without clipping the mixer.
The LED metering is determined by the incoming signal coming into the channels on the mixer.
Stay away from the red when adjusting the gain for each track and your good.
Know that the mixer is 32bit floating point so its not going to digitally clip regardless of you going into the red or not but I would still suggest using the LED metering to keep you aware of the output and keep your mix at equal volume.

No way Id want to go back to this kind of master system, thats old school ;)

You should be not able to put out more whats coming in like on pioneers, vestax etc etc. You run the risk of knocking the master way too loud. Rane have this spot on with their design of the main out bus& meter.

Rane mixers ONLY ATTENUATE with master. If you want the full signal you must have master (or session or booth) at MAX postion.

Just run your master at max position and use PGM inputs to set gain keeping master away from red.

Also, if you need to drop the volume at any point of the set/gig/recording you can do this and still make full use of meter(s) and your recordings will stay the "proper" level.

Once you understand and use this system you will appreciate it. Unity gain FTW ;) ;)

I'm with s3kn on this. You guys will appreciate how its designed over time.

Zach..

Heres the thing... Ive been using these Rane mixers since the mojo 52... I dont want to think pioneer anything except a CD player.

I have never had a rane mixer where i didnt have the channel sliders all the way to the top, the trim knobs at 12oclock to 2 oclock and the master at less than 12oclock and had to look at red lights on the mixer.

I HATE the fact that a pioneer is lit up like a christmas tree and always is showing red lights. Red should mean stop and its driving me crazy that i have my lines up like I have ran every rane mixer since my MP24 and I have my master at 3oclock and i'm showing red on the master output and the channel led's too.

Thats great that the mixer isnt clipping or whatever, but it LOOKS like it is.

There has to be a way to have the master out control the master led display or at least be in conjunction with the actual output levels of the line and the master.

Please consider this for the people who have for years set up their systems and told the dj not to play in the red. This mixer can show red during a walk in or happy hour level...

This is exactly the opposite of how myself and many other people have used a Rane mixer.

Its the Lines all the way up and control your output with trims and the master..........

The ONLY reason your seeing reds on master is because you are seeing reds on PGM channels(inputs).

Keep these green and the most you will ever see on master is yellow.

It is a bad idea on other mixers to run inputs red and then turn master down(which is what i think you want to do with this)......

Your signals should be green at all stages from SL software >then PGM IN > then your MASTER output would be green mostly with a little orange if you have 2 full tracks on top of each other.

This design is PROPA. If djs dont know about levels and redline it ait RANEs fault. I dont drive with my foot to the floor in first gear and blame VW.

Who uses a mixer and puts the master ALL the way up???

That is absurd?

For me i want the fader at the top position so I can cut on each channel and go top to bottom. The gain knob is used for additional head room...

Why on earth would I want my master wide open, and then only be able to push up each level fader 20 or 30 %

This would also add to the headphones being low issue where as the higher the channel level, the louder the headphones are.

and no i dont want to run ANYTHING red. However nothing truly shows me what is in the RED and what isnt because I can be at -20db but what should be the MASTER out meter is showing red...

This isnt how I play, however technically this CAN happen...

If you have your faders at the top position it does not matter where you have your master.. You get to trim the volume with the level/gain/pgm/whats their name knobs on the mixer..
That's what is so sweet with the Rane mixers :)

I'm not saying you need to turn up your master volume all the way up.
Its an attenuator... just like that little knob on the back of a Pioneer mixer.

All that needs to be said here is run your inputs as hot as possible without clipping and turn up the master as loud as you want the volume to go.

If this mixer is being set up in a club the sound engineer should max out the master level knob (just as they do when using a Pioneer mixer and the attenuator knob on the back) and set the levels of the sound system down stream from there.
That way, whoever walks up to the mixer, won't go above the DB level the sound engineer has set for the sound system.

As s3K said.. its a brilliant design.

i have to co-sign this method as well. it's a great design and makes sense. i know if you are coming from other mixers it seems incorrect, but it's not.

my setup w/ TTM 57
SSL auto level: 92db
SSL Master: 12 o'clock
57 upfaders: 100%
57 PGM gain: start at 12 o'clock
57 Master: 100%
amps/speakers/board: start at 12 o'clock or 50%

57 master as in all the way to the 10 right?

yep

The way the master leveling system works on the 62 is really good and really logical. The master LED is the sum of both track output and the master knob controls the level sent out.

The misconception I feel some DJ's had was that the Volume displayed on a DJ mixer is the actual sound coming out of the speaker system. There are 2 different variables in the equation. With the 62 and 68, think of level 10 as hitting the red and adjust accordingly.

this reminds me alot of when I first learned how to mix.
as most old folks remember there were no trims, no gains, no eqs

you had to mix with the master very high, and keep your lines in the 6-8 (out of 10) range
god forbid you dropped in a lo-pressed record and pushed you line to 9/10 and the next one was even lower... you had to creep that record down, while pushing the master up so when you
brought in record # 2 you could match the volumes by ear.

so am I wrong in reading thats sort of the method we should consider going back to?
adjusting the gains to directly effect the master out? (i know that statement sounds odd)

since the mixers move to faders Ive pretty much abandoned using the line faders for mixing on a precise level, especially the 57.... I now use the line fader as sort of a macro
control, and the trim and EQs as a micro control.
depending on where i am in the mix, topping out at maybe a bouncy yellow , rarely a solid yellow line output....
sadly, the 57 faders from 0-7 is a slight slope, sometimes inaudible; and then the 8-10 is balls to the wall.
but I never (and I should) flip to stereo house to see what my master output is.
Ive always used my ears.

but then with this in the 62/68 got me thinking.
Not everyone has a sound tech, and more so, not every reads, or can really comprehend threads like this...
I think a video, or a devoted page on how this works would be a great idea to go along with the release of the mixer....
and maybe someone where in an update, if possible you can make it a toggle option for
people who cant wrap, on dont want to, their heads around it.
I know Ive mentioned it to 2 people in the past hour... and they looked at me like i was speaking dutch...

the good news is even if someone errors with this system they arenet gonna blow their system...well, actually... thats not entirely accurate.
Im constantly amazed how people spend thousands of dollars on gear, and dont bother to learn the audiology behind it )look i made up a word!)

Not with this design...on OTHER mixers, you are right, it is..

But when all the master does is ATTENUATE, this is how it should be used.

As i said, learn and understand the design of Rane mixers and you will realize that this is an excellent design.

You guys arent getting it.

I dont care how you choose to use your master knob.

I WANT A TRUE OUTPUT METER!!!

IDGAF about these input meters that really dont mean anything. Im tired of debating here.

The 57 has a line and MASTER out.

The master level meter on the 62 should show TOTAL OUTPUT of the mixer... I want the meter next to to the master know to show the OUTPUT of the BOARD.

Why is this such a difficult concept????

geez. i dont get the total attitude like rane dont know whats going on. relax a little things would be alot easier if u handled it in a different way.

this is the best design possible... it is idiot proof... basically its saying u can turn everything up with out blowing anything so long as ur channel gains dont stay in the red (am I wrong)

yes, but some people just cant get it. :)



Its not how WE choose to use it, this is the way it is meant to be used(learn your gear).

What do you mean the input meters dont mean anything? Of coarse they do. All stages of signal path are important. You should be clean from SL software > into PGM inputs..... and if you are you will be clean to main outboard.

If you want to show the OUTPUT to the BOARD run knob at max and it will....

This is what sets RANE mixers aside from the rest of the junk out ther.

If they are telling you theres no digital clipping...why is whatching your total out so important while DJing live?

Isnt the relation between each individual track more important?

(and FYI this Unity Gain structure is how more of the higher end recording mixers operate...)

my 62 is a bit weird i think too...

i have my gains on each chanel set to 12 oclock.

master turned up a bit just enough to get some sound of my speakers (djing in my room) and like the master is just hittin the reds a bit then backing off. way into the yellow.

The master LED shows the sum of both of your tracks. An example would be if you mixed both tracks together and both channels are in the green, but when they are mixed the volume coming out is louder. This is what the master LED is showing, the level of both tracks put together. As long as you keep the master LED from Redlining, you are good to go and can turn the master knob to ten if you want too.

This method keeps, master volume of both tracks combined from being distorted before it gets to the house system. So when you are mixing, you should keep from redlining the master LED and if you need it louder, turn up the master knob, not the gains on your input channels. Turning up the master knob will not effect the Master LED, it just turns up the level.

Not sure if that helped.

kinda got it, master level leds show the combination of both chanel 1 and chanel 2. master just raises the levels up?

Yes.. its simply an attenuator.

Good post Niro:)

I think people need to get off of thinking they need to keep their individual gain knobs at 12 o'clock on their mixers.
It doesn't matter where your gain knobs are. Just don't clip the signal.
Its ok if the signal starts clipping when your at 11 to 12 o'clock (as it does on my 62). That just means that the 62 has more headroom than the mixer your used to using.

If the signal is clipping when the gain knobs are at 12 o'clock that is indicating that you need to turn them down.

If you really need to see your gain knobs at 12 o'clock than simply turn down the master level knob in SSL:)

that should be etched in booths around the world!

but....

it would probably end up with a DJ stick over it in 2 days, along with twitter pix of the mixer in red and a middle finger

Very informative read!

So for a small mobile gig where I'm just using say a pair of active speakers and not going through an amp/speaker board...

As I'm setting up, should I max out on the Rane mixer's Master output and adjust the individual active speakers to ensure the volume will be at the optimal level? I probably should give myself adequate headroom, in case I end up having to turn the music louder later, right?

If you want to set the level and keep it there than turn the master gain up all the way and set the levels of your speakers accordingly.
If you want to leave some headroom to be able to turn it up from the mixer later on in the night than give yourself a bit of room on the master output.

Thanks, just wanted confirmation.

So pretty much, Rane mixers have one less point of clipping error compared to other mixers.

Yes!
You ONLY have to worry about the level of the incoming audio.

This is really easy to set up:

If you're doing mobile, than you can do this before hand figure out where your speakers max out at. Start with your speakers at it's lowest level and your mixer's master level at 10. Turn up amp or speaker until it hits red, your output and input are now matched.

If your at a place where your are plugging into a house system and can't adjust the house input levels. Than you need to start with the mixer level at 0 and turn it up until you see it hitting the red on the house system and what ever level it is on your master knob, is the max that the system can take before it starts to distort.

If you are unable to see level meters or the limit LED, than you will need someone preferably a manager when the volume is good.

You can than remember what the max at certain clubs are and never clip. The levels at all my residency are different, but I know club A's max is at Level 8, Club B's at level 5 and Club C can go to ten.

Wow. I really cant believe everyine including Zack is saying in the pro audio world, you should max out your mixer and turn your amps down, and the meter on the mixer shouldnt reflect what the total output of this mixer is.

Ill just keep my gain pots turned down, have my headphone volume accordingly be low, and then still not be able to see what my true output is...

oh i got it ill bring my 57 out to see when im hitting red, then quickly switch over to my 62 to actually play on... Because im not playing in a bedroom, im playing in an arena and the amplifiers are in another room.

I have a very good understanding of gain structure, and how sound levels work.

I want to be able to see my true output on my $2000.00 mixer

messed around with, gains at about number 3 on the mixer,and then master to were i like it. no yellow. nice green leds!!

DJ 2 Cool C, I've never played an arena, but I have played some big venues and the sound engineer has always had me come in a max from my mixer and than have me come down from there. This way I get headroom, so I can go up as the place fills up, but never blow the system.

Having the LED meter reflect the output from the mixer is the same as having the levels numbered. 10 would be max or red, 9,8,7 would be yellow and so on.

I've played with a few people on Pioneer mixers who are redlining before the sound even goes out of the mixer, but since they see green on the master meter, they think they're good to go.

Yes master LED on those mixers gives the output level from the mixer, but is different on the receiving end ( the amps.) Just because you're in the green zone from your mixer, doesn't mean the amp is, it could be redlining. This is just my observation and trying to help a fellow DJ out. I might be totally in the wrong and I apologize if I am.

DJ 2 Cool C

Your really thinking backwards here (coming from someone whos both been the FOH engineer at +60,000 and DJ for equal size venues).

What you most need to be concerned with is good clean signal...if your really palying in a arean then you know you have ZERO clue what the crowd is truley hearing...with line array delay, satelite delays and natural room reverb if you think the corelation between what you see out a few sets of LEDs or are hearing is anywhere close to what the crowd is hearing....you my friend are definetly not hearing what they hear when they hear it or how they hear it.

He aint saying that.

At max postion you get UNITY GAIN(a gain of 1:1 ) from the PGM inputs. So you are not maxin out anything, this mixer (trys too) stop this djs playing too loud/clippin with this feature. The most you can put out is what you put in. This is how Rane mixers are meant to be used. Its things like this that set them aside from junk mixers out there.

The meter does reflect what the total output(to system) is if your gain knob is at max. So just set that to max and you will get what you are after(meter showing whats going out). If you want to put less out and see that reflected on meter use the PGM in gain knobs to do this.

All djs have to worry about now is setting the gain on the inputs so they are gren(maybe a little orange) and you will be CLEAN.

I love this design as I can do recordings late at night and without having to turn down the volume on my active monitors(which is a pain as the knobs are at back plus you gotta balance left and right) all i need do is turn this master gain knob on mixer down to desired volume. This enables a good "proper level" recording and also full meter indication as I mix and also wont wake the neighbours.. ;)

Thank you to all of the audio engineers on the forum...

I am not questioning, nor have I had a question about a clipped signal coming from this mixer. I understand all of your points about signal level etc.

Just because the mixer doesnt send a clipped signal, doesnt mean the amps cant clip.

I simply want to see a master output level, on the master output meter.

@Hydro

I know what you are saying, I was just trying to get my point across that sometimes as a dj you have no control over turning down a speaker, or an amp, and all of the control is in your hands.

With that being said I would like to see what is coming out of the mixer.

you want to see whats coming out the mixer? "look at the indent on the KNOB"
:)

lol
NH NM

Run knob at max and it DOES.

I think Dj 2 Cool C wants to see the overall output of what's coming out of the speakers, but to do so, he'd have to take a look at the amp/mixerboard.

Perhaps he's concerned with running Mains too high that the amp wouldn't be able to handle if the amp settings were set too high, and of course he wouldn't be able to see it on the Rane mixer. But wouldn't a sound engineer, knowing about the unity gain design of a Rane mixer, balance the amps with accordance to the Rane mixer being set to max. In doing so, it would be the hottest non clipping signal, but it doesn't mean the DJ has to start playing at that level.

Please excuse me as I'm still a noob understanding unity gain. :)

Sounds like you understand, as I do, that every gain stage should be as hot as possible without clipping.
Signal should be in the hot yellow coming out of SSL, the signal coming into the mixer should be in the hot yellow, and amps should be turned up just under clipping thus your speakers won't have to be turned up as loud.
This will give you the best signal to noise ratio.
As s3k said... if you want to see the full output of the mixer on the master output LED turn up the master level knob (attenuator) all the way.

i get a really hot signal (almost red) with my gain at around 3 or 4 on my 62.....so being a creature of habit, if i like my gains at 12 o'clock (more like my 57) to do slight adjustments accordingly i just lower the output of the SSL output knob.. correct??? or should i just get used to using the gains knob so low....

thats what I do with my 68, turn master on SL to lowest point so you can make better use of gains on mixer....until they address this issue thats the workaround.

I think it's fine that if you have the Master set at MAX then it'll match up with your PGM inputs post fader or whatever. That's not what I have a problem with.

What I have a problem with is that when you have your master at 1/2 or whatever, then the Master LED should show accordingly. If you want to max it out, then it should match the PGM input levels.

But if it's NOT maxed out it, should should the signal output of the attenuated levels. I think this is quite reasonable.

The levels are shown on the Master knob, just instead of LED, it's numbered.

Exactly. +1

if RANE & or SERATO make a change for this...please make it OPTIONAL!!!!

I'm not sure they would, after people figure it out than they would understand it's more important to see if both your channels mixed together are clipping. Instead of seeing the clipped output level displayed by a meter, sent to an amp or powered speaker on at a different.

Your mixer and amp are two different variables, unless they are set to the same levels, than a master LED would display the same levels, but that would be the same as 10 being the max on a labeled knob.

Audio1 - it was at Brooklyn in Breckenridge, they did the Friday night opening and I did Saturday night. It was during the Dew tour, so I flew in a day early to check them out.

Sorry wrong thread.

This might be a dumb question, but can the 62 be damaged at all if master is turned all the way up, with both channels all the way up as well?

Putting the line gain at 10 is probably not the best idea, but really I can only imagine the only that would get jacked up is the sound system it's running to.

But keep the gains in the green/yellow you can push the master to 10 and have a nice clean signal.
But the golden rule is always , NO RED

No....but your amp/speakers will not like it.

The master out knob adds no gain to signals(in rane mixers). It can only turn them down. So no problem running this at max.

What you need to make sure you do is keep the inputs in check. I go to barely on first yellow on meter.

By doing this your speakers will like it........ ;)

I would like to have the master show the output of the music just like any other mixer does.

But if they cant change that i guess is not that bad but would like to have it the other way.

it does when master knob is at max

Man,I can't imagine going to another monitor style..
It makes for such clean work

+1

Best way for a master bus. Hands down.

Should the input levels be in the green or first or second yellow? There is alot of different opinions on the this..And also were do most of you guys set your auto gain in scratch live at 92?

I run both at the first yellow....some say you can go a little more than this but i keep them here so when i mix the "collective" output has the extra headroom as 2 or more tracks are on top off each other.

I try to go with one solid yellow, and the other one flickering. But more importantly I pay attention to the master LED lights when mixing...