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Question for you guys who know how to properly mix in key.

danu165 11:27 PM - 20 September, 2011
Ok so I've been DJing(as a hobby) for a year and a half now and I've been trying to understand music theory and such. Recently I learned about keys, major and minor and how to formulate a major or minor scale. I then found this chart that shows keys that are compatible with each other:

www.harmonic-mixing.com

The way its described is that every key that is 1 hour away from one is compatible with each other. So 12a is compatible with 11a and 1a (and of course itself). However 12a and 12b are not compatible? It never specifies.

If they are not compatible, how would one mix from a minor to a major(or vice versa), I can't imagine everyone stays in major or minor the entire time they DJ...
DJ Shady Lady 11:33 PM - 20 September, 2011
12A and 12b would be compatible; 12A is the relative minor of 12B.

Pretty much if you know a keyboard this is how you tell relative minors: the relative minor will be 3 1/2 steps down from the major.
danu165 11:33 PM - 20 September, 2011
Ah ok cool thanks!
dj_soo 11:35 PM - 20 September, 2011
remember - these are just guides - some tunes change keys, some have non-complimentary chord changes.

you still have to use your ears :)
DJ Shady Lady 11:37 PM - 20 September, 2011
yeah especially watch if a song modulates or something in the last chorus; then you'd want to use that new key to mix in the next. ^^ what soo said.
danu165 2:47 AM - 21 September, 2011
Hm ok, good to know thanks. Also does this mean its possible to switch from say 11a to 12b or would changing the major/minor require you to stay in the same "hour" as its expressed
Daktyl 5:15 AM - 21 September, 2011
going one 'hour' forward on the camelot wheel from minor to major wouldn't work because it's a major 2nd/diminished 3rd. going forward one hour will work going from major to minor sometimes though, because it's a minor 3rd. You can also go back two hours going from major to minor or forward two spaces going from minor to major because that's a fifth, but you can't go forward two spaces going from major to minor or back two spaces going from minor to major because that's a minor 2nd....

If all of that sounds confusing it's because it is. That's why I don't really like the camelot wheel... It's great for basic harmonic mixing (mixing in 5ths and going to relative major/minor), but when you get deeper into theory it gets really convoluted. It's much easier for me to just know the scales and keys and the relationships between them rather than a bunch of numbers on a wheel and rules for them. 8A and 10B are meaningless to me, but I know that A and D are a perfect 4th from each other which is a nice harmony. Depending on the particular songs, those two keys might make an interesting sounding mix. That's why my key tags are letters and not the camelot numbers.
my process for when I'm mixing harmonically goes something like this:
Will these songs go together? Playing track is F minor, new track is B major... count F-G-A-B, four letters so it's a 4th, might work...try it out in the headphones and see how it sounds... sounds like crap, next song same process, sounds good, track will fit the vibe and energy, mix it in.
My advice to you since you've just started learning theory is to forget about the camelot wheel and learn actual intervals and what harmonies work instead. use the circle of fifths (same thing as camelot wheel, but with actual keys instead of 'hour' numbers.
www.google.com
Daktyl 5:18 AM - 21 September, 2011
that said, the best way is to use your ears and see if it sounds good. like soo said, it all depends on the particular chords in a song at the point you're trying to mix.... songs that "should" harmonize because they're in related keys sometimes don't, and songs that should be dissonant because they're in unrelated keys sometimes sound great together....
dj_soo 5:46 AM - 21 September, 2011
Quote:
going one 'hour' forward on the camelot wheel from minor to major wouldn't work because it's a major 2nd/diminished 3rd. going forward one hour will work going from major to minor sometimes though, because it's a minor 3rd. You can also go back two hours going from major to minor or forward two spaces going from minor to major because that's a fifth, but you can't go forward two spaces going from major to minor or back two spaces going from minor to major because that's a minor 2nd....

If all of that sounds confusing it's because it is. That's why I don't really like the camelot wheel... It's great for basic harmonic mixing (mixing in 5ths and going to relative major/minor), but when you get deeper into theory it gets really convoluted. It's much easier for me to just know the scales and keys and the relationships between them rather than a bunch of numbers on a wheel and rules for them. 8A and 10B are meaningless to me, but I know that A and D are a perfect 4th from each other which is a nice harmony. Depending on the particular songs, those two keys might make an interesting sounding mix. That's why my key tags are letters and not the camelot numbers.
my process for when I'm mixing harmonically goes something like this:
Will these songs go together? Playing track is F minor, new track is B major... count F-G-A-B, four letters so it's a 4th, might work...try it out in the headphones and see how it sounds... sounds like crap, next song same process, sounds good, track will fit the vibe and energy, mix it in.
My advice to you since you've just started learning theory is to forget about the camelot wheel and learn actual intervals and what harmonies work instead. use the circle of fifths (same thing as camelot wheel, but with actual keys instead of 'hour' numbers.
www.google.com


i wish I had retained any of the theory I studied when I was younger, but shit is greek to me... it's why I prefer to use my ears more than anything as at least I can tell when something is off key...

The saddest part is how few DJs actually use their ears mixed inn key or otherwise...

Quote:
try it out in the headphones and see how it sounds... sounds like crap, next song same process, sounds good, track will fit the vibe and energy, mix it in.


THIS SHOULD BE A STANDARD TECHNIQUE - ANYONE WHOE DOESN"T DO THIS SHOULD REEVALUATE THEIR CAREERS.
Audio1 6:14 PM - 21 September, 2011
Quote:
Quote:
try it out in the headphones and see how it sounds... sounds like crap, next song same process, sounds good, track will fit the vibe and energy, mix it in.
THIS SHOULD BE A STANDARD TECHNIQUE - ANYONE WHOE DOESN"T DO THIS SHOULD REEVALUATE THEIR CAREERS.
This entire thread is summarized right here.
str8nger 7:31 PM - 21 September, 2011
Its more fun when you just throw on a song you thonk it migh sound good togather. f%# that mixed in key stuff. Maybe cuz I don't understand it. But good for those who work with it :)
Chris Cracknell 8:31 PM - 21 September, 2011
Use your ears, if it sounds right, it probably is, if it sounds shit, it probably isn't.

Your ears are the key, listen and learn, a book can only teach you so much.
danu165 12:06 AM - 22 September, 2011
See I usually use my ears, but I posted a mix a while ago and a lot of people commented saying how it was not in key. I planned the whole mix and to me it sounded good and honestly still does, so I figure for some reason my ears are not too great at determining whats in key. I can definitely tell when songs sound like shit together but its harder when it sounds "good" to me. I always mix when it sounds great but that ambiguous good always gets me and so thats why I was trying to learn off this camelot wheel.

My question to Daktyl: Does the fourth note always determine if the keys can fit? I do know how to come up with the major and minor scale from each note so I can figure out what the fourth note is, I'm just curious if it could be another note in another circumstance
str8nger 3:54 AM - 22 September, 2011
Fuck the key junkies bro if your mix sounds dope to you and your friends! Other djs going to Hate no matter what. and of course will say something negative. I honestly don't waist my time trying to mix in key I'm not trying to put an album out there , im having fun mixing out of the blues and of course some jams here and there that go well together tearing up the dance floors at the clubs and bars all it matters to me :)
dj_soo 3:56 AM - 22 September, 2011
Quote:
Fuck the key junkies bro if your mix sounds dope to you and your friends! Other djs going to Hate no matter what. and of course will say something negative. I honestly don't waist my time trying to mix in key I'm not trying to put an album out there , im having fun mixing out of the blues and of course some jams here and there that go well together tearing up the dance floors at the clubs and bars all it matters to me :)


again, you don't have to follow some sort of rigid regiment of key mixing according to tags - just for the love of god, audition your mixes before you throw em in to make sure they don't sound like shit.

so many of these new djs just don't do this...
dj_soo 4:01 AM - 22 September, 2011
and if everyone is telling you that your mixes are out of key and you can't hear it - then you really need to listen to more music.

try this exercise.

1. find a melodic song - rnb, pop whatever, that has both an acapella and an instrumental.
2. now drop a blend at +6% pitch
3. now in the middle of the blend, turn OFF key lock on just one deck.

now if you can't tell why it sounds good with them both key locked and terrible with one side turned off, then you're pretty much tone deaf and you may want to re-evaluate your hobby.

Now if you can tell the difference, start slowing them both down slowly - you'll notice it'll sound "closer, but not quite right" the slower it goes - the "not quite right" is something you can train yourself to pick up on more.
((DJ AMMONIA)) 100PPM 4:06 AM - 22 September, 2011
Great discussion I to am new to DJing and would loved to know how to mix in properly with keys I was just using my ears to hear how it sounds. sometimes my mix sounds good but sometimes I sound like GGGARBBAGE. 2x denon 3700,1 beringer 4000 mixer,sl3,pyle [pro speakers] plus i have dnmc 6000 with sl3 on another computer. my setup is good but im just having a hard time at knowing what mixes rite together can you guys give me some pointers. i having only had this setup for less that 2 months
dj_soo 4:19 AM - 22 September, 2011
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sometimes my mix sounds good


then keep doing that mix

Quote:
but sometimes I sound like GGGARBBAGE


then don't keep going with that mix and choose a different song.

it's pretty much that simple

using programs like mixed in key and key tagging your files should always just be a guide. Too many of these new DJs (and a surprising number of older djs too) just seem to think that if the tags match, then it should mix which just isn't the case.

Most of these programs are only about 60% correct - many songs that may be in the same key have chord changes that causes clashes - sometimes songs in the same or complimentary keys just don't work together and other times songs that aren't in the same or complimentary keys don't work.

This is where using your ears comes in as that should be the final say.

However, if your ears can't tell the difference between a good sounding mix and a garbage mix (or worse thinks a garbage mix sounds good) then you really need to re-evaluate your ideas of DJing (no shame in that - some people just can't do music) or start mixing completely atonal shit like brostep...
Daktyl 5:51 AM - 22 September, 2011
Quote:
My question to Daktyl: Does the fourth note always determine if the keys can fit? I do know how to come up with the major and minor scale from each note so I can figure out what the fourth note is, I'm just curious if it could be another note in another circumstance

Short answer...no. long answer... I was just using a 4th as an example of an interval that makes a nice harmony. I'm talking about intervals, not notes in scale. pure 2 note harmonies... Generally, any kind of 2nd and any kind of 7th will sound bad. so B to C won't mix and A to G won't mix etc... 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th will sound good. the way to determine the interval is to count starting with the note you're on and ending on the note you want to go to. A to C: count A-B-C...3 letters so it's a 3rd.... (that's a minor 3rd.... eventually you can learn how to tell minor vs major, but for now just knowing that usually everything but 2nd's and 7ths work is enough). when mixing songs by keys it's a bit different than just harmonizing notes (ascending vs descending scales, what chord the song is on at a particular point, etc), but that's a good rule of thumb for what MIGHT work together....
Quote:
Fuck the key junkies bro if your mix sounds dope to you and your friends! Other djs going to Hate no matter what. and of course will say something negative. I honestly don't waist my time trying to mix in key

I don't always mix based on the key of the song... notice how I said WHEN I mix in key, this is how I do it... the op asked about mixing in key and got responses based on that. I saw no hate in this thread. mixing in key is like sorting by bpm. it's just a guideline... just like you can TRANSITION between two songs that are very different bpm's, you can also transition between two songs that are in conflicting keys and still have it sound good. but you can't really MIX them. not normally... not without it sounding like crap...
DJ Shady Lady 8:40 PM - 22 September, 2011
i agree by "if it sounds good use it" but i dont think theres any harm in having the knowledge to refer to or if you consistently are getting crap mixes to take a step back and actually look at the keys for a sec. itll become very easy if you practice
dj_soo 8:45 PM - 22 September, 2011
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i dont think theres any harm in having the knowledge to refer to or if you consistently are getting crap mixes to take a step back and actually look at the keys for a sec. itll become very easy if you practice


personally, I think it's a good thing to actually learn the theory - even the basics - but let's face it,

What troubles me is how many mixes, mashups, and blends are out there from "djs" that just blatantly sound out of key. And yet are still being played all the time...
Daktyl 10:07 PM - 22 September, 2011
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i agree by "if it sounds good use it" but i dont think theres any harm in having the knowledge to refer to or if you consistently are getting crap mixes to take a step back and actually look at the keys for a sec. itll become very easy if you practice

this is what I was trying to say... I tend to ramble lol

Quote:
What troubles me is how many mixes, mashups, and blends are out there from "djs" that just blatantly sound out of key. And yet are still being played all the time...

...truth! when you hear mashups with horrible key clashes on crooklynclan, and "live" mix shows on radio with the same thing, something is really wrong. That's why I also said learn the actual theory and ditch the camelot wheel. gtfoh with your 12a, 6b bs...
danu165 4:49 PM - 23 September, 2011
Quote:
Generally, any kind of 2nd and any kind of 7th will sound bad. so B to C won't mix and A to G won't mix etc...


I read something on that website about "energy boost mixing" which would be something like going from B to C, or C to D, so is that technique really more of a transition then instead of mixing? Meaning if I were going from C to D, I'd want to be quick about it instead of letting them linger playing with each other?
Daktyl 6:01 PM - 23 September, 2011
^^^^exactly
danu165 6:22 PM - 23 September, 2011
Ok awesome thanks a lot guys I really appreciate it