pitch accuracy & other pitch stability q's

Stuart Ramdeen 8:54 PM - 29 July, 2004

ok. I've got Serato on loan from my dealer for the weekend. I have to take it back on Monday.
I installed it on my Mac (g4 dual 533 1GB ram, 10.3.4, twin scsi 36gb drives raided together in a stripe config).
I calibrated the system so I had two near perfect circles on each side and clicked on the estimate buttons on each side of the deck. I moved the usb buffer to about 10 and clicked on apply. I started to play some tunes and was amazed at how well the system seemed to work. I thought I'd try my first mix so I began to pitch deck 2 and bring it into sync with deck 1. All was good, or so I thought. When I brought deck 2 back to the cue point (beginning of the record (10 minute side)) and released it, I needed to adjust the pitch again as the tune was now faster than deck 1. The music I mix is uk garage so the tunes are at most 6 mins long each. Generally you start to mix at about the 3.30 mark into each tune so there's no worry about this 'pitch drift' issue due to the mastering lathe being a bit dodgy.

I'll have a more thorough play with it tonight. What is the pitch accuracy of serato scratch? The display only displays .1% steps which is nowhere near accurate enough. This was one of my biggest complaints to pioneer about the original (pre cdj1000) CDJs. They responded by introducing .02% accuray which meant you could leave a mix and not have to touch the platter/pitch control for about 20 seconds.
So is serato's pitch control infinitely variable, like a analog deck (1210, etc) or is it limited to .1% steps?

Also, I found that when tunes were playing, the pitch display on serato was fluctuating quite a bit. For example it would be on 4.3% but jump around 4.2-4.4% constantly.

Also, if I cued up a track and mixed it in the headphones and let's say the pitch was set to 3.5% by the time I had beatmatched it as perfectly as possible, when I 'recued' the record by bringing it back to the edge, the pitch display on serato may have 'permanently' changed to 3.6% or 3.4% (but floating around that figure as stated above).

So far, I'm liking the theory behind SSL and I love the way it works, I just want to know if I can iron out these 'bugs'?

many thanks

stu

Sam 9:12 PM - 29 July, 2004

Hi Stu. All of the pitch issues you have mentioned will be fixed in the next release, which is currently in beta testing. The pitch control is determined by the analog deck, it is not limited to the .1% steps

Stuart Ramdeen 12:02 AM - 30 July, 2004

thanks for the quick reply sam. so the fluctuating we are seeing is known about? I was looking on the unofficial forum and found 15 pages of people having the issue. I couldn't find much about the 'pitch twitch' on here, only the gradual drifting introduced by the master lathe.

could you please contact me directly or supply an email address as I have a question for rane/serato that isn't really for the board.

thanks

NOSPAMstu@patchmein.comNOSPAM

stuart

AJ 12:51 AM - 30 July, 2004

Quote:

I calibrated the system so I had two near perfect circles on each side and clicked on the estimate buttons on each side of the deck.

You should not press the estimate button while the records are playing. The estimate button should only by pressed when the deck is motionless (ie as silent as it can be), this is because when you press estimate, you are telling scratch live what silence sounds like in the current environment. You could also just center the slider, which will give you good response in almost any situation, extreme left or right is rarely a good setting.

feniks 2:12 AM - 30 July, 2004

the "fluctuating" that you notice on the digital display is probably pretty acurate (and normal i might add). unless your turntable is locked in the center position (ie. the green light is on) it is not quartz locked and the pitch is not absolutely constant. this is part of the normal wow and flutter that is inherent to any turntable that is not quart locked at a certain rpm. these fluctuations are so small that they shouldn't cause a noticeable change in pitch or tempo. the "pitch drift problems" that have been noticed actually cause a tiny jump or skip in the audio. a newer version that fixes this bug is being tested now and should be made available to the public shortly.

Stuart Ramdeen 11:51 AM - 30 July, 2004

feniks, trust me it's not normal. No deck fluctuates .1% up and down. Not even belt driven Geminis! :-)
I can beatmatch to perfection with two 1210s (not trying to blow my own trumpet, but I don't want to get into 15 pages of pointless discussion about it being the wow and flutter of a 1210 or the pitch control on its way out etc etc like on the other forum :-) ).

Sorry AJ, I should of been clearer. I did press the estimate button whilst the decks were stopped.

regards

stuart

ps, gonna try the cds tonight and report back. I will see if I can sneak off work early as I'm dying to have another play with the setup!

feniks 3:10 PM - 30 July, 2004

Quote:

feniks, trust me it's not normal. No deck fluctuates .1% up and down. Not even belt driven Geminis! :-)
I can beatmatch to perfection with two 1210s (not trying to blow my own trumpet, but I don't want to get into 15 pages of pointless discussion about it being the wow and flutter of a 1210 or the pitch control on its way out etc etc like on the other forum :-) off work early as I'm dying to have another play with the setup!

try this.....lock your tables rpm at zero (with the green light on). this should quartz lock yourturntable to exactly 33.333333 rpms. let me know what you find.

oh yeah...trust me...every deck fluctuates.

lancota 4:27 PM - 30 July, 2004

Quote:

feniks, trust me it's not normal. No deck fluctuates .1% up and down. Not even belt driven Geminis! :-)
I can beatmatch to perfection with two 1210s (not trying to blow my own trumpet, but I don't want to get into 15 pages of pointless discussion about it being the wow and flutter of a 1210 or the pitch control on its way out etc etc like on the other forum :-) ).

Sorry AJ, I should of been clearer. I did press the estimate button whilst the decks were stopped.

regards

stuart

ps, gonna try the cds tonight and report back. I will see if I can sneak off work early as I'm dying to have another play with the setup!

If you really want to know how much wow/flutter is being done by SSL AND you think your pitch is hoping around try this test. Map the SAME track to both TT's, pitch lock your tables, and double start them, get them in sync and sit back and listen. What you should hear is the song flanging ever so slightly, it should never go up or down drastically enough to throw the beats off, but it will flange a bit.

This is because in order to compensate for the signal coming in SSL must constantly adjust the speed internaly to match with the noise map signal on the vinyl. You also have latency to deal with...the lower the latency, the tighter SSL will map to the noise map on the vinyl.

I wouldn't worry about the pitch display in SSL, I believe it to be an exagerated adjustment (i.e. I get .2+- flux all the time, but it constantly goes up and down...sorta like self correcting to keep in sync with the vinyl noise map) Believe me, if it didn't bend the pitch it would have to skip to catch up, which would cause digital pop's in your sound stream...which is exactly why FS sucks (that an the hardware is faulty).

Stuart Ramdeen 4:53 PM - 30 July, 2004

well, i can report nothing but pure success with the cds. Beautiful.

not one bit of fluctuation at all. The pitch display even sync'd bang on with my cdj1000s.

Even when both vinyl tables were quartz locked at 0% I would get pitch twitch.

I can now mix decently again! More thorough testing with the cds is in order. The only PITA now is that nasty 'break' sound when you stop a cd. But at least a fix for that is also coming. Nice.

I'm off to Alton Towers over the weekend so I can't play anymore with SSL (leaving tonight) :-(

oh well, Sunday it is!

cheers
stu

lo-fi 9:32 PM - 4 August, 2004

Is there a 'pitch twitch'or isn't there? Or was there and has it since been fixed?

I expect to be able to beatmatch and mix as tightly as I can with regular vinyl - surely this is how it works with SSL?

lancota 10:23 PM - 4 August, 2004

there is, it usually happens toward the end of a track that's around 8 min...so typically after the 4-6 min mark your track will pitch shift so much that keeping it in check is very, very difficult.

The patch is supposed to be in beta right now, when it will be released is anyone's guess.

In my experience you won't be able to beat match as tightly as you ever can with vinyl....I find I have to make more adjustments on the fly to keep the tracks working (although you do get used to this).

Final Scratch conditioned me to be on my toes, which works for the most part with SSL...but that damn shift near the end is a killer (my friend who I was doin a VS. set with last night trainwrecked 3 times).

Stuart Ramdeen 10:56 PM - 4 August, 2004

a fix is in the works. lo-fi, if you use the cds rather than vinyl, then there is no pitch drift or pitch twitch. I guess you are wanting to use the vinyl though, so hang in there. a fix is being developed as I type this

stu

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pitch accuracy & other pitch stability q's

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