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File formats and the future of the "record pool"

Slick MF 2:39 PM - 27 December, 2006
Well, since the forums seems relatively clean, I figured I'd break this ice with this one. I'm sure it'll cause some rukus due to the overtones of a very "old" discussion on the Serato forums.

I've been thinking for a while about the future of vinyl itself. I am still a member of 2 major vinyl pools in my area. I enjoy the fact that whether I am working on radio, or in a nice club, or just Porky's Bar & Grill, I have put the time and effort into having my music in the most optimum format (IMHO, obviously) of 24-bit 96000 PCM wav. I know it is dubbed off of vinyl, and DJ x can't hear the difference between MP3 and WAV, but DJ y can.

Anyhow, it seems to me that even my pools are down to about 50% vinyl and 50% e-mails of mp3s. This is a bit disappointing, but nonetheless the future. I guess what I am asking, in a very circuitous way, is this: (1) how soon will labels completely phase out the wax distribution in favor of digital distribution, and (2) is there any plan from the record labels (not just this site specifically) to change over and release 24-bit masters (or at least some sort of uncompressed lossless format) to their DJs? If so, to whom will it be available.

I know I've rambled here, but I'm just curious if anyone has heard anything from within the labels themselves as to what the 10-year plan is as far as them phasing out vinyl completely.

--
slick m/f
Supagee 4:52 AM - 28 December, 2006
who would pay for the bandwidth that it would take to send uncompressed masters? anything above 192 kps is decent IMHO. I actually use VBR and the lowest setting at 192.

it is believed by 2010 that there will be no pressing of vinyl anymore due to the non-production of the raw materials needed to produce vinyl. Processing the raw materials is very harmful to the enviroment.
Talrinys 4:56 AM - 28 December, 2006
I seriously doubt that, there are still turntables being sold and more than a few peole would object to phasing out completely, espically that rapidly.
Supagee 4:59 AM - 28 December, 2006
we will have to wait and see but i have been watching this issue for some time now.

I like vinyl but since SSL came into my life the only vinyl i use or get is from the record label and if they replaced it with mp3's instead i would not be disappointed. Besides my storage warehouse is getting full and would much rather waste my money on another hard drive then monthly payments to a storage company.
Talrinys 5:00 AM - 28 December, 2006
Very very true :) I definately feel the same way, but i believe vinyl sales are actually going up, not down, right now?
Supagee 5:00 AM - 28 December, 2006
i don't think so but that is really hard to gage.
Slick MF 1:19 PM - 28 December, 2006
Regarding bandwidth: I tend to agree about uncompressed files are too large to be passed around the 'Net. I would be satisfied if I received a weekly CD containing all my digital uncompressed tracks from my pools. So, in essence we could keep the distribution process the same as it has always been, but a different medium. I am not talking about a "Top Hits" or "Promo Only" type of deal either. I would want every cut that would be available as a 12" single on the DVD or a _data_CD_ (not an audio CD) in 24-bit 96kHz uncompressed WAV. Only difference between that and the status quo is that I don't have to go through the trouble of dubbing the vinyl. There have got to be some jocks out there that feel the same way. The whole system of record pools does not need to be revamped just because we are changing the media. Coming into the digital age should be bringing us _better_quality_ audio, not poorer. I don't think anyone will disagree with that last sentence, so we need options.

As to the replies on the phase-out of vinyl, I think vinyl sales are going up only as part of a last-minute fad due to turntablism going mainstream. Every vinyl DJ who is working steadily at this point is already using Serato or is seriously thinking and saving to buy Serato. I visited one of the biggest record stores here in Philly, and the girl I always see was complaing about business being the worst she has seen because of Serato's boom in 2006.

I imagine that record companies view vinyl as an unnecessary and cost-ineffective medium at the point. Think about how much more it is just in materials compared to compact disc; then there's the cost of inner sleeves; outer jackets which are often glossy 4-color prints; occasional shrink wrap; let alone the cost of pressing versus stamping a CD. I'm not saying that vinyl will be gone in the next 5 years (though, maybe 20); I do think, though, that you will stop seeing releases from the major labels by 2010 (as the earlier poster noted), making it far more esoteric than it has been in the last 10 years.
Talrinys 3:51 PM - 28 December, 2006
While that might be true in the US, consider that DJ'ing with Serato is illegal in Denmark for any practical applications, and we therefore still have a long way to go, this goes for many other european countries too, in the UK you have to pay about 850$ to get permission to do this. Vinyl is still running the show in Denmark, with a lot of shops for the purpose.
DJ BIS 5:54 PM - 28 December, 2006
Uncompressed formats will not be a viable medium until everyone is on some kind of ultra fast broadband and until storage technology will more ahead a bit. Probably in 5 to 10 years we will see this come to light I think.
DJ Gibs 11:44 PM - 28 December, 2006
I don't see labels eliminating vinyl pressings in the next 5 years but who knows???? For them its better than digital copies... yes you can make a fairly high quality digital recording from a vinyl master but it takes a fair bit of time, as opposed to just copying an MP3 file and altough old school guys like me prefer the sound of vinyl, they probably believe there not as good as digital masters.

I don't know about Europe and the other side of the world but vinyl sales are definately down a lot in the western world. I've seen countly stores shut down in Jamaica and Canada. JA isn't quite up on Serato like Canada and the US but even there all the DJs get mp3 from labels and just burn CDRs (most guys use CDJ1000s now). Bootlegging is very rampid down there... wich is why I don't see labels sending out high quality masters to DJs. Remember audio cassettes... labels didn't mind people copying tapes (not that they approved it but) they knew the quality was never as good as an original. That's no longer the case in the digital world so I would think they'd only give you decent quality radio edits and expect that if you love the song you'll buy it. Personally I'm happy with 192 MP3 quality and I don't mind buying music if I like it.

I definately think that in the next 5 years we'll see a new digital music format superceed CDs. The question is what will it be.... DVD, M4A, MP3 or something that doesn't currently exist???
Slick MF 1:16 AM - 31 December, 2006
I agree to a degree about the sound of vinyl. That is why I don't remove any of the pops or hiss from the songs I've recorded to WAV. It still sounds as though I'm playing the record when using Serato.

Nevertheless, it is ignorant to think that modern music (e.g., hip-hop, pop, r&b, house, viz., mainstream genres) is mastered any other way than digitally. The vinyl masters that are created are representations of a pristine original digital file. I understand why labels would be very reluctant to issue this, especially because of piracy, but let us remember the DJs' complaints about this format as well: the format begets files that are too voluminous as far as space is concerned and thus are most-definitely bandwidth hogs. This alone I think would minimize piracy

Also, perhaps a special format similar to Serato's new Whitelabel format that can only be interpreted by the software/hardware with the right decryption keys (something that would potentially come with packages such as Serato or ProTools, but not downloadable through freeware/cheap software such as Winamp). This part I'm a little fuzzy on, but it is an idea worth exploring.

All in all it seems I am very much alone on this side of the argument, but I must say that if labels are not willing to indulge in the idea of some form of uncompressed 24-bit digital audio distribution, I would rather prolong the status quo of distributing vinyl and me recording it myself.

slick
dj disturbed 2:30 AM - 31 December, 2006
Quote:
I don't see labels eliminating vinyl pressings in the next 5 years but who knows???? For them its better than digital copies... yes you can make a fairly high quality digital recording from a vinyl master but it takes a fair bit of time, as opposed to just copying an MP3 file and altough old school guys like me prefer the sound of vinyl, they probably believe there not as good as digital masters.



there was a law passed in the USA that would outlaw the prodution on the vinyl used in Records by i think 2009 (i might be wrong about the year) or so b/c the by-products of making the vinyl is hazerdus to the enviroment.
Serato, Forum Moderator
Steve W 2:57 AM - 31 December, 2006
Quote:
there was a law passed in the USA that would outlaw the prodution on the vinyl used in Records by i think 2009

Better get your spare control vinyl while you still can!
dj disturbed 3:12 AM - 31 December, 2006
Well hopefully there will be something that will work to replace the material.. or they will find a way to chage prodution styles to make it more enviromental friendly.. b/c it effects products other then vinyl records also.
Slick MF 2:55 PM - 31 December, 2006
I find this hard to believe. Poly-vinyl chloride is a fundamental product in the US for many applications other than records -- particularly building materials. Blank records are merely stamped. The creation of the matrices or masters is done using a nickel electroplating process (or at least it used to be) which I doubt to be "environmentally harmful."

What Disturbed must be referencing is the constant claim by environmental organizations about the poison dioxin being released on incineration of PVC. However, there has never been any officaly conclusion by the government to date that PVC is an environmental anathema. Many factories have already changed their production methods to greatly reduce the harmful by-products, thus preempting the need for any immediate government intervention.

I'm not saying you are dead wrong, but I would have to see some sort of a source to confirm anything like this. Otherwise, it is just misinformation.

slick mf
dj disturbed 3:47 PM - 31 December, 2006
I read it a few year ago in a news report.. and few other djs in the area had read it too
djwillfx 12:41 AM - 2 January, 2007
Records will never die all together. For as long as there is Serato, there will be a need to press up control records thus there will still be record plants in production around the world. Maybe the major labels will cease releasing their tracks on vinyl due to costs/time/effort, but as long as there is vinyl production plants around the place there will always be someone willing to press something up.
Matt Hite 1:09 AM - 3 January, 2007
Here are my thoughts on WhiteLabel.net and "the future of music pools:"

www.beatmixed.com

-M
dj cubicle 3:06 AM - 3 January, 2007
Nice write up, Matt. This might sound stupid but it never really occurred to me that it was DRM'ed until you mentioned it. When I think DRM I think complete lockout. Everyone I've explained the concept to thought it was pretty cool.
DJ Dub Cowboy 9:37 AM - 3 January, 2007
in Humboldt County I met a guy who was working on making records out of hemp.....

we can grow our records in the future

I'm serious.
Matt Hite 5:10 PM - 3 January, 2007
Thanks, Cubicle. It's definitely DRM. I would be hard pressed to spend a penny on tracks that are wrapped in DRM, but it is nice to see free ones released to Serato users.
Slick MF 9:13 AM - 4 January, 2007
Except editiorial; it is definitely something that needs to be addressed formally.

A downside to this, at least at this point in time, is that Serato is a proprietary interface. In other words, I can play my records on any turntable I buy from now till the end of humanity, play my WAV files on any interface, etc. Let us say (and I highly doubt this scenario, but let us leave it open) that Serato, in 5 years, moves to the wayside and some superior product develops. What happens to all of the music on which we have depended that was only supported by Serato through Whitelabel? It is as worthless as a Betamax cart or a ZIP disk.

I know it seems like I am out-right opposing to everything proposed here; that is not so at all. With many points, I am merely playing the devil's advocate to allow for more idea flow. I am interested to see the responses to this.


slick
Slick MF 9:13 AM - 4 January, 2007
mistyped: Insert *Exceptional instead of *Except on Line 1
Matt Hite 12:15 AM - 5 January, 2007
Slick MF,

Thanks. The DRM subject is going to come up over and over and over and over on this board. People will keep wondering how they can move these tracks outside of Serato to create custom edits, load onto the iPods, etc. Clearly there is DJ demand for portability, but from a business sense it makes little sense for Serato or a record label to let you do this. I fully expect it to be a closed ecosystem no matter how many people complain. DRM sucks like that.

-M
Serato, Support
Matt G 1:40 AM - 5 January, 2007
Matt, you can play the current tracks on an iPod or in iTunes or any other mp3 player. It'll just be the 32kbit version :)
Matt Hite 7:26 PM - 5 January, 2007
Uhm, I know you are being sarcastic, but as a company, I think you should understand nobody could give two craps about the 32kbit versions. What's the point? I've heard AM radio sound better...
Serato
Jeff D 8:34 PM - 5 January, 2007
The point is the 32kbit version gives you the opportunity to preview music through your laptop because the idea is it sounds the same as any regular mp3 through your laptop speakers....its either that or total incompatibility with any other interface.

As a company beginning a new digital distribution business, do you think any label will sign off their music if the format was unprotected??? Their hands are tied in this new shift in the music industry's business model. Serato isn't creating policy but following it as labels move to protect their digital property. Overall music sales in the US went up in 2006....all because of the 65% rise in digital sales with a 4.9% decline in album sales. Just look at the new technologies that major record labels actually spent their own money to develop....MPE (proprietary format), Spiralfrog (subscription service like Napster or Urge that uses another proprietary format), Sony just settled a lawsuit for placing hidden anti piracy software in their cds that automatically installs itself when you put it in your computer....
dj cubicle 9:15 PM - 5 January, 2007
What I did was download everything to my laptop when I was at home, then preview all the tracks while I was at work using winamp. I was able to figure out what I wanted to keep and what I wanted to get rid of that way. The 32kbit preview was a whole lot nicer than a.) not having one at all, or b.) having to bring the SSL box to work with me.

So there, I'm one person who gives two craps. Now quit yer bitchin. It's free, wtf do you want?
Matt Hite 10:40 PM - 5 January, 2007
Jeff:

Just so you know, 32 kbit is the LOWEST bit rate available for MPEG-1 Layer 3 encoding. It doesn't sound the same as "any regular" MP3, although laptop speakers certainly aren't going to do any musical recording much justice. Point is that it doesn't get any worse than 32 kbit.

And no, I don't agree that it's either that or nothing: DRM-free audio releases are always an option. Heck, they could have even come up with something that let registered users download the files and then decrypt them into playable (but fully portable, high-fidelity) MP3 files only if you have the SL1 attached... sort of a one time activation process.

In any case, major labels already release tracks without DRM. It's called a compact disc. As a DJ, ask yourself why you should bother to acquire music that is being held hostage with proprietary DRM? It will likely have little use in 5 or 10 years when the industry has moved on to bigger and better DRM. We can already see this foreshadowed today: Microsoft invented a new DRM scheme for their Zune player, leaving everyone who bought PlaysForSure (another MSFT technology) tracks out of luck... unless you don't mind buying all your tracks again! Doh!

And yes, labels have spent all kinds of money on DRM and associated technologies. They've also spent big money cleaning up the mess they've gotten themselves into with it! (Sony... root kit...) In this digital age, the major labels have done whatever they can get away with to exert the greatest control over the music consumer (and the artist... but that's a different conversation). There is some hope, however:

digitalmusic.weblogsinc.com

But as I said in my original blog post (www.beatmixed.com), I think the whole idea of the Serato-enabled DRM thing is interesting. And it is "free" (and not free in other ways), so I do feel a bit guilty raggin' so hard on it, but you get my drift...

Anyways, this was not a personal rant against you Jeff, just a general heads-up to DJs out there: the major labels aren't going to look out for your best interest. If you plan on making your living as a DJ, you better make sure that the time and money invested in your music collection isn't for naught. DRM is not in your best interest, trust me.

-M
Matt Hite 11:19 PM - 5 January, 2007
DJ Cubicle:

Well then, I guess we have two craps. Maybe even four if we count Jeff. :) And I'm sure there are others who are just as grateful as you... like you said: it's free.

But honestly, what can I do with this 32 kbit track other than preview it offline?

Nothing... and that's the point, the purpose, and the intent.
Serato
Jeff D 1:23 AM - 6 January, 2007
So what exactly is the argument???... a promotional product that is available for its intended purpose. You can preview it on your laptop and I've played the wl.mp3 format on my laptop and don't hear much of a difference from any other mp3 in my collection (the original argument) and you can use it in your set at a high quality.

When you worked at BADDA did you ask the labels that serviced why you couldn't play their vinyl in your car???
Quote:
Clearly there is DJ demand for portability, but from a business sense it makes little sense for Serato or a record label to let you do this.

Exactly!!!!...moreso on the record label part however :)
Slick MF 11:29 AM - 8 January, 2007
I understand Jeff's parallel with the record player in the car, but I wouldn't paint the same picture of the phongraph record, which has been around for over 100 years, as I would for _yet_another_ proprietary digital format. I think Matt and I are just concerned with DJs getting shafted down the road by changes; we are at the mercy of the powers that be as to whether or not we can play songs we _think_ we have.

As I think I've said in a previous post, I have a lot of confidence in Serato and the people behind it. Everything they do or have done has been with the DJ in mind, and we are minded like no where else. In the same breath, however, the only way they can take care of us best is for us to take care of ourselves and to voice concerns when we have them.

In essence, we are only getting temporary access to these songs so long as we use Serato. Technically the songs themselves are worthless -- we might as well be streaming them through a podcast when we play a gig, because they are just plain not ours. Perhaps if there were to be a mass exodus, perhaps the files can be decrypted, but I doubt even in that scenario would decryption be offered?

Well, there is not much else to say, I guess. There are those that think this is the best system ever, and those that are scared at the DRM (and, in my case, quality). I'm a little of both. For what it is, Whitelabel is the best. Let me back-track and scold myself a bit and say what others have contested: Whitelabel is free! As long as you use Serato it is free, and, therefore, there is nothing to complain about. In fact, this whole thread probably shouldn't even be on _these_ forums, but I don't know a better place to communicate with you all.

I'll be honest that I just have a quesy feeling about moving forward under these guidelines. [Arms flame suit] I just question whether the movement toward the all-digital medium is going to be better or worse for us. I know that seems like a horrible thing to say, but years ago when I pictured us being at this important crossroads of time, my vision had the DJ in a far better state. As I said originally in this thread, we are supposed to be moving toward better in terms of the quality of music as we plunge deeper into the 21st century, but I do not see that happening. I hold us partly responsible since we are so quick to settle for less or whatever is handed to us.

As an aside (and yes, you all can accuse me of being circuitous and going back to my first post again, but it's how strongly I feel), if the labels (or some sort of pool) were to offer a high-quality (and you should know by now what I define as "high quality" -- 24bit/96k) DRM-free distribution, I would pay for it. I have paid for pools every week for the past 10 years without a problem I've wasted gas driving to do pickups, time and energy BPMing, marking, and labeling. I understand everyone needs to make money, and nothing is free. Why can this same service not be replicated in some sort of digital way? Whitelabel _is_ great, but let us not be so quick to cheap-out and not seek some other avenue for this as well.

Apologies for the lengthy post. Awaiting your flames and replies...


slick
frikk 9:01 PM - 8 January, 2007
To Matt and Slick: I just wanted to say that you guys rock. The industry (and people) need people like you. Keep up the good fight. I have a hard time explaining to people why DRM is a bad idea for consumers and DJs, usually with no avail. My generation is so used to constant upgrades and knowing that the game I bought will not work on my PC in 4 years (but who cares, right? :( ) that issues like DRM are not well understood. Of course I will admit that people need to make money and also need a way to secure their ability to do so. There is a delicate balance between the rights of the consumer and the rights of the producer.

Its sort of like when I bought a CD that had a special 'feature' that only let me listen to the music through the built in Media Player that launched when I put it in my PC. Got a Mac? Forget it. Crashes some Car CD Players and old PCs? Oh well! Extracting the audio and burning it to a CD-R just so I could listen to it in my car and on my mac was the most fun (and perhaps illegal?) thing that I've done in awhile.
Dudley D 9:40 AM - 9 January, 2007
Quote:
While that might be true in the US, consider that DJ'ing with Serato is illegal in Denmark for any practical applications, and we therefore still have a long way to go, this goes for many other european countries too, in the UK you have to pay about 850$ to get permission to do this. Vinyl is still running the show in Denmark, with a lot of shops for the purpose.


what? illegal......how and why?

you hafta b jokin!
DJ Czar 10:32 AM - 9 January, 2007
While modern music may be recorded in 24bit/96kHz, it is very rarely mastered that way. Vinyl is NOT pressed from 24bit/96kHz masters, and that is a fact. You recording your vinyl in that format is a complete waste of time.

A few months ago I used to keep all my music in an uncompressed WAV/AIFF on an external 300gb drive. I carried the harddrive along with my powerbook everywhere I went. No DJ I talked to understood why I did that, as they just stored everything on their laptop drives. Plus, it always took me longer to set up, having to plug in the drive, etc. Anyway, now I store everything in 320k on the laptop's drive. I keep uncompressed copies at home on a 600GB RAID-5 array. That is overkill to most. I am a quality nut just like you are, but trust me, 24bit/96kHz files are a COMPLETE waste of space. Even if vinyl was pressed from high-res masters, the generation loss to analog and back to digital would make recording to that format just as impractical.
sojourn 5:20 AM - 10 January, 2007
I'd have to agree with Czar on that one. A similar analogy would be trying to get 320kbps sound out of an existing 192kbps mp3. The general rule hasn't changed: You don't get better than your original recording level and/or sampling rate.

And about formats: 320kbps is becoming a widely accepted standard in the industry for one simple reason - it works; scientifically, mathematically, and practically. And 320 is hardly being arrived at because DJs, engineers, manufacturers and audiophiles have "settled" for any "lesser" format; on the contrary it's actually because they have demanded higher quality under stringent guidelines and applications - i.e. exactly the way the industry always has. Nothing changing there, everyone still moving toward quality, just less effort overall as a result, no worries.

As to the "disappearance" of vinyl (both now and into the future): never gonna happen.

DJs, audiophiles, collectors in general - rest assured in reading the above posts that we are not all of the mindset of abandoning analog recordings on wax, and not all of us believe it is even possible that it will not be part of the industry for a considerable time into the future. Producers, label-owners, and engineers - rest assured we understand your need and right to produce on any media you see fit, for any reason you see fit; and some of us - end-users - would never be so bold as to suggest any media's extinction. (With a readily documented history of over 100 years of others "guessing" when vinyl would "die", I'd be hard "pressed" to ever suggest I'm sufficiently clairvoyant enough to make that call myself.)

Talk to many independent dance label heads today and you'll quickly discover that the majority - if not 100% - of their catalog is on vinyl for one simple reason: control. Yes, things are a-changin', but "control" is at the very heart of both this thread and the industry in general - today as never before. Different forms of physical media are most definitely one way to maintain that control, and so will be used to do so well into the future.

Long before these days of DRM, the physical state of music-transference is what determined the ability (or inability) to circulate music and still enjoy a profit for that original work. ...guess what - in the continued use of vinyl today, that has not changed. And for reasons of control, that WILL not change into the foreseeable future; especially for the dance-independents.

Some labels will move 100% of their operation to digital media. Some labels will maintain 100% vinyl. Some labels will offer a combination of the two. But, mark my words, you will never see a full exodus away from analog recordings and the physical media that carries them; and there will simply always be some tracks that are available on vinyl that are not available digitally, and vise versa.

No one wants to see every track available digitally more than I. But I completely understand and respect the artist's/producer's judgment in continuing to utilize "secure forms of media"; and to utilize whatever measures they may choose to shape their own industry. And besides, I consider myself to be a patient person ...I've got no problem waiting ...until then or if never, I have turntables right here. ...for a loooong time to come.

Of course it's ridiculously cost-ineffective to press vinyl, especially today. But what price is an artist/producer actually paying for a track they can't make a profit from? If their tracks are "shared" right out of any existing ability to control income for them, artists/producers lose their grip entirely. Forget about "rights", at that point they're just making "free music" for everybody, whether they want to or not. Not a very successful business model.

By utilizing vinyl (and now DRM techniques), an artist/producer assures they have some modicum of control over their creation at all; and, like it or not, that's well within their "rights" as artists in general. Although it is completely possible, the typical "pirate" is simply not going to invest 400-1000 dollars in a turntable, or 550 in SSL; and then take the time to A/D-convert all day/night. The entry fee to that "club" is simply too high to consider for most anything but legitimate end use; any remaining stragglers who actually pay such fees or take the necessary time to "hack" a way to "free music" are either crazy or too determined to attempt to combat anyway - either way they are a substantially smaller threat by result. By utilizing such physical end-use restrictions, artists/producers have effectively "screened" for their specific end-market without inconveniencing it; and have effectively protected themselves from all but the worst offenders of piracy. I say three cheers for both.

Sure, people are still going to rip off artists/producers however they can. People will still rip CDs, vinyl, and all manner of media to mp3 (or other future digital format) and "share" it with others. But through effective use of physical media/hardware and DRM, the continued existence of your most favorite and your most unknown artist/producer isn't the only thing assured; the existence of the music industry itself is as well (again, see independent-dance-underground).

For these reasons, and for collecting/collectors in general, turntables and vinyl (and subsequently turntablism) are not going away anytime soon.
Slick MF 3:16 AM - 11 January, 2007
To best address the profusion of excellent posts, I will try to respond to the posters individually.

(1) frikk: Thank you for your kind words. It is nice to see that, while in my locale and social circles I am in the minority, here on the field of excellent ideas I am not alone in the wilderness. In law, it is known that silence is acquiescence; if we do not voice our objections and concerns, the industry assumes that whatever it is doing is the just path. Remember that you too are necessary to "fight the good fight."

(2) Czar: I am glad we are both at least in the same camp. I am well aware that once acetates are mastered for vinyl pressing, the upper bits and frequencies are already rounded away that were in the original final digital master. When I dub _my_ vinyl down to digital, I record in 24-bit with 44,100 samples per second. The approximate maximum dynamic range of a typical piece of commerical vinyl is about 85 dB with 20 kHz of frequency response, which makes a 44.1 kHz sample rate (anything above 40 kHz) ideal while not clipping off any of the upper frequencies. While 16-bit is ostensibly sufficient providing 96 dB of range, once subtracting the noise floor of vinyl, considering the desire to have headroom, and -- important to me -- factoring in the desire to have the harmonic distortion of the vinyl itself captured within the recording, 24-bit provides that extra polish that maximizes the level of quality I can have.
I feel as though I threw out too many numbers there that may get jumbled in reading, but the point is that high-quality WAV files do not have to be considered a luxury and _should_ be desired.

(3) sojourn: You raise many excellent points in your post. Despite my constant complaints about quality et cetera, I am thankful for the fact that 320 kbps MP3 has become a standard within the industry. For the longest time, I would many-times receive files that were coming from the people at the record labels that were 128 kbps or even 96 kbps at times -- levels that I think we can almost all agree are intolerable. Of course I am not satisfied, but I feel we are moving in the right direction.
As far as vinyl not being eliminated, I think you are right to a degree; but, there is a difference between elimination and obsolescence. Even before Serato went mainstream, many small-time labels out here in Philly, Baltimore and Jersey went nearly exclusively digital. I'd have to beg them for wax, because they just did not want to be bothered with pressing anymore. When I stated in an earlier post that if things don't progress to where I'd like to see them go, I'd rather live with the status quo, what I meant was just what you have said. The only true way to screen against piracy _is_ for the media to be physical, and I'd rather just keep plugging along, doing this god-forsaken task of dubbing my vinyl day-in and day-out, than for things to be completely DRMed (yes, it's official, DRM is a verb now) and/or low quality compressed files that any consumer with BitTorrent or Limewire can get.

We as DJs deserve to get quality. We are showcasing _their_ music. We are not losers that are sitting home all day watching porn, picking our noses, and downloading MP3s for their iPods in the background. We _are_ a major part of this industry, and we need to be heard. I want to thank everyone that has participated in this thread so far as I did not think I was even going to garner a single response save for a moderator to my original post. Let's keep the discussion going and be heard!


slick
DJ BIS 9:38 PM - 18 January, 2007
sojourn, mad props.
djmel 7:40 AM - 19 January, 2007
slick mf and every one else here is the answer to yall questions
1. unless you have top notch aduio equipment( from the cart /cd player, cables, amps, wireing etc ) you will not hear the diff in a mp3 that was rip in dual channel stereo at 320kbs from 1920ihmo. vinyl is not goin no where since people still buy them an collect them and still use them around the world. there you have it ( now the rec pools oh hell yea they goin to go digi because it would only make since to , no shipppin an handlein . no s/h theft or damage, no warpin of 12", reach way more customers at a higher and faster rate. and it s cheaper for you the consumer and the company )
AKIEM 6:54 AM - 6 February, 2007
I would also be willing to pay for a subscription. Every month a DVD with high quality non-DRM files.

Anyone have any thoughts on "watermarks"?
Matt Hite 5:41 PM - 6 February, 2007
I'd take watermarks over DRM ANY DAY!
AKIEM 10:23 PM - 6 February, 2007
Anyone know if watermarks are a real possibilty?
Chrisssss 12:17 AM - 8 February, 2007
There are watermarks. I think mostly every online store uses watermarks (even the stores with not-DRM-protected files)

My opinion is that DRM kills music. Because of one does not really own the song... One does only own the rights to play it... and who knows when the music industry takes away your right... (my opinion)
Serato
Jeff D 5:03 PM - 8 February, 2007
Here's an article that came out 2 days ago, hopefully it will explain a lot of the issues when it comes to digital music distribution as far as the label requirements to drm and getting clearances to use their content etc..... Serato is not the only one.....

www.apple.com

Thoughts On Music
Steve Jobs
February 6, 2007

With the stunning global success of Apple’s iPod music player and iTunes online music store, some have called for Apple to “open” the digital rights management (DRM) system that Apple uses to protect its music against theft, so that music purchased from iTunes can be played on digital devices purchased from other companies, and protected music purchased from other online music stores can play on iPods. Let’s examine the current situation and how we got here, then look at three possible alternatives for the future.

To begin, it is useful to remember that all iPods play music that is free of any DRM and encoded in “open” licensable formats such as MP3 and AAC. iPod users can and do acquire their music from many sources, including CDs they own. Music on CDs can be easily imported into the freely-downloadable iTunes jukebox software which runs on both Macs and Windows PCs, and is automatically encoded into the open AAC or MP3 formats without any DRM. This music can be played on iPods or any other music players that play these open formats.

The rub comes from the music Apple sells on its online iTunes Store. Since Apple does not own or control any music itself, it must license the rights to distribute music from others, primarily the “big four” music companies: Universal, Sony BMG, Warner and EMI. These four companies control the distribution of over 70% of the world’s music. When Apple approached these companies to license their music to distribute legally over the Internet, they were extremely cautious and required Apple to protect their music from being illegally copied. The solution was to create a DRM system, which envelopes each song purchased from the iTunes store in special and secret software so that it cannot be played on unauthorized devices.

Apple was able to negotiate landmark usage rights at the time, which include allowing users to play their DRM protected music on up to 5 computers and on an unlimited number of iPods. Obtaining such rights from the music companies was unprecedented at the time, and even today is unmatched by most other digital music services. However, a key provision of our agreements with the music companies is that if our DRM system is compromised and their music becomes playable on unauthorized devices, we have only a small number of weeks to fix the problem or they can withdraw their entire music catalog from our iTunes store.

To prevent illegal copies, DRM systems must allow only authorized devices to play the protected music. If a copy of a DRM protected song is posted on the Internet, it should not be able to play on a downloader’s computer or portable music device. To achieve this, a DRM system employs secrets. There is no theory of protecting content other than keeping secrets. In other words, even if one uses the most sophisticated cryptographic locks to protect the actual music, one must still “hide” the keys which unlock the music on the user’s computer or portable music player. No one has ever implemented a DRM system that does not depend on such secrets for its operation.

The problem, of course, is that there are many smart people in the world, some with a lot of time on their hands, who love to discover such secrets and publish a way for everyone to get free (and stolen) music. They are often successful in doing just that, so any company trying to protect content using a DRM must frequently update it with new and harder to discover secrets. It is a cat-and-mouse game. Apple’s DRM system is called FairPlay. While we have had a few breaches in FairPlay, we have been able to successfully repair them through updating the iTunes store software, the iTunes jukebox software and software in the iPods themselves. So far we have met our commitments to the music companies to protect their music, and we have given users the most liberal usage rights available in the industry for legally downloaded music.

With this background, let’s now explore three different alternatives for the future.

The first alternative is to continue on the current course, with each manufacturer competing freely with their own “top to bottom” proprietary systems for selling, playing and protecting music. It is a very competitive market, with major global companies making large investments to develop new music players and online music stores. Apple, Microsoft and Sony all compete with proprietary systems. Music purchased from Microsoft’s Zune store will only play on Zune players; music purchased from Sony’s Connect store will only play on Sony’s players; and music purchased from Apple’s iTunes store will only play on iPods. This is the current state of affairs in the industry, and customers are being well served with a continuing stream of innovative products and a wide variety of choices.

Some have argued that once a consumer purchases a body of music from one of the proprietary music stores, they are forever locked into only using music players from that one company. Or, if they buy a specific player, they are locked into buying music only from that company’s music store. Is this true? Let’s look at the data for iPods and the iTunes store – they are the industry’s most popular products and we have accurate data for them. Through the end of 2006, customers purchased a total of 90 million iPods and 2 billion songs from the iTunes store. On average, that’s 22 songs purchased from the iTunes store for each iPod ever sold.

Today’s most popular iPod holds 1000 songs, and research tells us that the average iPod is nearly full. This means that only 22 out of 1000 songs, or under 3% of the music on the average iPod, is purchased from the iTunes store and protected with a DRM. The remaining 97% of the music is unprotected and playable on any player that can play the open formats. It’s hard to believe that just 3% of the music on the average iPod is enough to lock users into buying only iPods in the future. And since 97% of the music on the average iPod was not purchased from the iTunes store, iPod users are clearly not locked into the iTunes store to acquire their music.

The second alternative is for Apple to license its FairPlay DRM technology to current and future competitors with the goal of achieving interoperability between different company’s players and music stores. On the surface, this seems like a good idea since it might offer customers increased choice now and in the future. And Apple might benefit by charging a small licensing fee for its FairPlay DRM. However, when we look a bit deeper, problems begin to emerge. The most serious problem is that licensing a DRM involves disclosing some of its secrets to many people in many companies, and history tells us that inevitably these secrets will leak. The Internet has made such leaks far more damaging, since a single leak can be spread worldwide in less than a minute. Such leaks can rapidly result in software programs available as free downloads on the Internet which will disable the DRM protection so that formerly protected songs can be played on unauthorized players.

An equally serious problem is how to quickly repair the damage caused by such a leak. A successful repair will likely involve enhancing the music store software, the music jukebox software, and the software in the players with new secrets, then transferring this updated software into the tens (or hundreds) of millions of Macs, Windows PCs and players already in use. This must all be done quickly and in a very coordinated way. Such an undertaking is very difficult when just one company controls all of the pieces. It is near impossible if multiple companies control separate pieces of the puzzle, and all of them must quickly act in concert to repair the damage from a leak.

Apple has concluded that if it licenses FairPlay to others, it can no longer guarantee to protect the music it licenses from the big four music companies. Perhaps this same conclusion contributed to Microsoft’s recent decision to switch their emphasis from an “open” model of licensing their DRM to others to a “closed” model of offering a proprietary music store, proprietary jukebox software and proprietary players.

The third alternative is to abolish DRMs entirely. Imagine a world where every online store sells DRM-free music encoded in open licensable formats. In such a world, any player can play music purchased from any store, and any store can sell music which is playable on all players. This is clearly the best alternative for consumers, and Apple would embrace it in a heartbeat. If the big four music companies would license Apple their music without the requirement that it be protected with a DRM, we would switch to selling only DRM-free music on our iTunes store. Every iPod ever made will play this DRM-free music.

Why would the big four music companies agree to let Apple and others distribute their music without using DRM systems to protect it? The simplest answer is because DRMs haven’t worked, and may never work, to halt music piracy. Though the big four music companies require that all their music sold online be protected with DRMs, these same music companies continue to sell billions of CDs a year which contain completely unprotected music. That’s right! No DRM system was ever developed for the CD, so all the music distributed on CDs can be easily uploaded to the Internet, then (illegally) downloaded and played on any computer or player.

In 2006, under 2 billion DRM-protected songs were sold worldwide by online stores, while over 20 billion songs were sold completely DRM-free and unprotected on CDs by the music companies themselves. The music companies sell the vast majority of their music DRM-free, and show no signs of changing this behavior, since the overwhelming majority of their revenues depend on selling CDs which must play in CD players that support no DRM system.

So if the music companies are selling over 90 percent of their music DRM-free, what benefits do they get from selling the remaining small percentage of their music encumbered with a DRM system? There appear to be none. If anything, the technical expertise and overhead required to create, operate and update a DRM system has limited the number of participants selling DRM protected music. If such requirements were removed, the music industry might experience an influx of new companies willing to invest in innovative new stores and players. This can only be seen as a positive by the music companies.

Much of the concern over DRM systems has arisen in European countries. Perhaps those unhappy with the current situation should redirect their energies towards persuading the music companies to sell their music DRM-free. For Europeans, two and a half of the big four music companies are located right in their backyard. The largest, Universal, is 100% owned by Vivendi, a French company. EMI is a British company, and Sony BMG is 50% owned by Bertelsmann, a German company. Convincing them to license their music to Apple and others DRM-free will create a truly interoperable music marketplace. Apple will embrace this wholeheartedly.
Serato
Jeff D 7:20 PM - 8 February, 2007
And here's the RIAA response (notice the suggestions both these entites make are ideas that they both know the other won't agree to meaning things will stay the way it is):

RIAA To Apple: You Open Your Technology

APPLE CEO STEVE JOBS challenged major record labels to strip copying restrictions from music sold online, but their trade group fired back, suggesting the company should open up its anti-piracy technology to rivals instead.

The ASSOCIATED PRESS report quoted RIAA Chairman/CEO MITCH BAINWOL as saying this would eliminate technology hurdles that prevent music fans from buying songs at APPLE's iTUNES Music Store and playing them on devices other than the iPOD.

"We have no doubt that a technology company as sophisticated and smart as APPLE could work with the music community to make that happen," BAINWOL said in a statement.

JOBS earlier called on record labels to abandon their requirement for online music to be wrapped in digital rights management technology that prevents unauthorized copying.

The DRM protections prevent the iPOD from playing music bought from many other competing online stores. JOBS said eliminating such restrictions would open up the online music marketplace.
Chrisssss 4:12 AM - 9 February, 2007
The article is more about the iPod and how it deals with DRM.

I think DRM is a crime. I wont supprot it by buying any DRM protected files, or a license.

I buy my music on Vinyl, unprotected MP3s (yes, they have watermarks, which show that i brought them legal, watermark != DRM, it something veeeeery diferent).

With DRM we dont really buy the songs we only buy a limited license to play them as the selling company wants us to play them. Thats very dangerous. They dont only limit us how to play them, they also limit what we can do with those Music files!

Take care,
Chris
willyd555 6:34 AM - 9 February, 2007
wow very interesting, if the market were open, the company that made the most money would probably be the easiest to use and download music, therefore I think that Itunes would have the upper hand.
Serato
Jeff D 6:47 PM - 9 February, 2007
you don't think the rules labels set w ipods won't apply anywhere else???.... it'll be harsher on serato because serato's planning on giving the music for free....
Chrisssss 1:34 AM - 10 February, 2007
"the company that made the most money would probably be the easiest to use and download"

- thats because of people aren't informed about how dangerous DRM is! OK, its much better than getting the files illegal, but the best way is to get legal undprotected files, like Buying Vinyl, CDs, WAVE files or high quality unprotected MP3s.
Specials DJs have to pay attention. As far as i know is it not legal to play a song on air or in the disco from CD that you brought at iTunes!

Best Wishes
Chris
timevan 6:05 AM - 10 February, 2007
How can you complain about DRM files when they are giving them away. No one is forcing you to use the files, and as a free gift I don't think anyone has the right to complain about them. If you were paying that would be a different story.
Chrisssss 6:26 AM - 10 February, 2007
No, im not complaining about the whitelabel files, thats a great thing,

im complaining about the whole concept of DRM!

btw. i dont think the whitelabel.net files are DRM protected (am i right?). They have another kind of protection that binds them to SSL, but allows you to listen to it in less qualityin other applications.

Greez
Chris
nik39 4:29 PM - 10 February, 2007
Quote:
I'd take watermarks over DRM ANY DAY!

Matt, I can truely agree!

Quote:
im complaining about the whole concept of DRM!

evanmit, no on is really complaining, it's just that this approach of Serato to the DJ market and label promotioning scheme needs a proper look. wl.net is a great thing, no doubt, but that doesnt mean t's perfect. There are certain things which can be improved. We all want wl.net to be a success and therefor a good balance between the needs of the DJ's and the needs of the labels needs to be established.

I totally understand the labels point being afraid that their music is given away and copied for free in thousands of p2p networks. Lets skip the arguement that this is also some kind of promotion and focus on how this can be avoided without harming the needs of the DJ's. For me personally any DRM files are pretty much worthless.

I can't use iTunes DRM protected files in ScratchLIVE, and who knows (this point has been mentioned before) how long we will be using this DRM scheme and not changing to a different one. Just an example, with the change to Windows Vista some users had problems using their iTunes bought music. This can happen any day the user decides to change to a different operating system, or ... using a different companies product. If I put time and effort into maintaining my DJ library (this is one of the most worthful things - my library!) and I keep using wl.net files, it is pretty much clear that when I decide to use for example Final Scratch, those files are absolutely worthless. What happens if Serato files for bankruptcy one day? No more Scratch LIVE updates, and sooner or later the product will die, so the files.

On top of this everyone knows there are certain ways how to circumvent the DRMs (famous analog loophole at least), so it won't really keep those people who want to distribute the music files in p2p networks from doing so. But DRM harms the average user. Ever tried to playback a copyright protected CD in your car CD player? Some are incompatible. I am not even allowed to rip the CD into audio files. So... I can't use the CD in my car. Some will argue that it also keeps the average joe from giving their audio files to their friends, and friends friends etc. Yes, that is a problem. So why not incorporating watermarks? There are certain watermarks which still stay there even after going through different fileformats and encoding schemes as well as the analog loophole! I bet, when people know that things can be backtrack to them, they will think twice before giving away audiofiles to friends, not to speak about p2p networks.

Let's face it, status quo right now:

* People can distribute the audio content of wl.net files quite easily if they convert those tracks to a different format through the analog loophole. People who have the energy and want to distribute the content *will* do it. Plus, even if you allow certain content only be accessible for let's say the top-radio dj's, it won't prenvent them from distributing those files
* Honest DJ's who want to use those files not only for the time using Serato application but also in the future are not able to! It is additional work for them to maintain a list of tracks with wl.net files and those same tracks in an unprotected format.


If we had watermarks instead of DRM:

* People are still able to distribute the files, *but* those files are backtraceable. Whoever gave them away at first, can be backtraced and can get into serious trouble. It will keep people from giving those files to anyone who they are not absolutely sure that they won't distribute them any further.
* Honest DJs can still use those files in any audio application. With less hassle in the future when they decide to switch to a non-Serato application.
* You can not only reach Serato DJ's but basically any DJ regardless which application he is using.


IMHO this would be a good balance between the interests of the labels and the interests of the users/DJ's.

Here is an interesting article from NY Times about rumours that EMI is having discussions with a couple of companies about removing any copy protection in their music www.nytimes.com <- click.
Chrisssss 6:17 AM - 11 February, 2007
Yeah, i think for that purpost (whitelabel), DRM makes sese, absolutely.
Serato
Jeff D 4:49 PM - 12 February, 2007
Quote:

Here is an interesting article from NY Times about rumours that EMI is having discussions with a couple of companies about removing any copy protection in their music www.nytimes.com <- click.


www.forbes.com talks about how those talks broke down and how the other 3 majors are united to "preserve usage restrictions." There's always talks but never any action...EMI is also looking to be sold (almost sold twice last year).

Labels are looking for other ways to make money off of the usage of their content (because outside of itunes sales, its hardly worth their time). Only when they find suitable revenue streams (besides mp3 sales) that is worth it to them will you possibly (and I stress possibly) start seeing the other 3 majors talking about non drm's. The labels get a piece of zune sales when they negotiated for microsoft to license their content. It will be real interesting to see what comes out of the negotiations w/ apple this spring when their agreement expires. One thing's for sure, mp3s won't be .99 anymore....you'll probably see variable pricing among other things....
Jester 4:22 PM - 13 February, 2007
wow a large discussion..... personally there are not enough Mp3 stores for me to purchase decent high quality mp3 online.. sure there are ones for main stream music but who wants to play cheese!!... i thnk with the advent of Web2.0 and mp3 becomgin a buzz word in the last 5 years ths will all change, and it will have to if vinyl production is going to stop due to the environment etc etc.... nice thread anyway ;)
nik39 12:40 PM - 2 April, 2007
Quote:
Quote:

Here is an interesting article from NY Times about rumours that EMI is having discussions with a couple of companies about removing any copy protection in their music www.nytimes.com <- click.


www.forbes.com talks about how those talks broke down and how the other 3 majors are united to "preserve usage restrictions." There's always talks but never any action...EMI is also looking to be sold (almost sold twice last year).


Well, now there is some action, taken from www.emigroup.com < click :

Quote:

EMI Music launches DRM-free superior sound quality downloads across its entire digital repertoire

EMI Group CEO Eric Nicoli today hosted a press conference at EMI's headquarters in London where he announced that EMI Music is launching DRM-free superior quality downloads across its entire digital repertoire and that Apple's iTunes Store will be the first online music store to sell EMI's new downloads. Nicoli was joined by Apple CEO Steve Jobs. The event also featured a musical performance by The Good, The Bad & The Queen.

On this page you can find an audio webcast of the press conference which will be available for live streaming at 1pm London time with on demand archived streaming and MP3 download available shortly afterwards, the press release and a copy of the presentation slides.


Hooooray!
nik39 12:46 PM - 2 April, 2007
Quote:
Press release:

EMI Music launches DRM-free superior sound quality downloads across its entire digital repertoire

Apple's iTunes store to be the first online music store to sell EMI's new downloads

London, 2 April 2007 -- EMI Music today announced that it is launching new premium downloads for retail on a global basis, making all of its digital repertoire available at a much higher sound quality than existing downloads and free of digital rights management (DRM) restrictions.

The new higher quality DRM-free music will complement EMI's existing range of standard DRM-protected downloads already available. From today, EMI's retailers will be offered downloads of tracks and albums in the DRM-free audio format of their choice in a variety of bit rates up to CD quality. EMI is releasing the premium downloads in response to consumer demand for high fidelity digital music for use on home music systems, mobile phones and digital music players. EMI's new DRM-free products will enable full interoperability of digital music across all devices and platforms.

Eric Nicoli, CEO of EMI Group, said, "Our goal is to give consumers the best possible digital music experience. By providing DRM-free downloads, we aim to address the lack of interoperability which is frustrating for many music fans. We believe that offering consumers the opportunity to buy higher quality tracks and listen to them on the device or platform of their choice will boost sales of digital music.

"Apple have been a true pioneer in digital music, and we are delighted that they share our vision of an interoperable market that provides consumers with greater choice, quality, convenience and value for money."

"Selling digital music DRM-free is the right step forward for the music industry," said Steve Jobs, Apple's CEO. "EMI has been a great partner for iTunes and is once again leading the industry as the first major music company to offer its entire digital catalogue DRM-free."

Apple's iTunes Store (www.itunes.com) is the first online music store to receive EMI's new premium downloads. Apple has announced that iTunes will make individual AAC format tracks available from EMI artists at twice the sound quality of existing downloads, with their DRM removed, at a price of $1.29/€1.29/£0.99. iTunes will continue to offer consumers the ability to pay $0.99/€0.99/£0.79 for standard sound quality tracks with DRM still applied. Complete albums from EMI Music artists purchased on the iTunes Store will automatically be sold at the higher sound quality and DRM-free, with no change in the price. Consumers who have already purchased standard tracks or albums with DRM will be able to upgrade their digital music for $0.30/€0.30/£0.20 per track. All EMI music videos will also be available on the iTunes Store DRM-free with no change in price.

EMI is introducing a new wholesale price for premium single track downloads, while maintaining the existing wholesale price for complete albums. EMI expects that consumers will be able to purchase higher quality DRM-free downloads from a variety of digital music stores within the coming weeks, with each retailer choosing whether to sell downloads in AAC, WMA, MP3 or other unprotected formats of their choice. Music fans will be able to purchase higher quality DRM-free digital music for personal use, and listen to it on a wide range of digital music players and music-enabled phones.

EMI's move follows a series of experiments it conducted recently. Norah Jones's "Thinking About You", Relient K's "Must've Done Something Right", and Lily Allen's "Littlest Things" were all made available for sale in the MP3 format in trials held at the end of last year.

EMI Music will continue to employ DRM as appropriate to enable innovative digital models such as subscription services (where users pay a monthly fee for unlimited access to music), super-distribution (allowing fans to share music with their friends) and time-limited downloads (such as those offered by ad-supported services).

Nicoli added: "Protecting the intellectual property of EMI and our artists is as important as ever, and we will continue to work to fight piracy in all its forms and to educate consumers. We believe that fans will be excited by the flexibility that DRM-free formats provide, and will see this as an incentive to purchase more of our artists' music."
Serato
Jeff D 3:30 PM - 2 April, 2007
It's great to see actual proactivity.... so now I'm guessing that everyone complaining about DRM will support EMI music and buy it???? If not, what other major will follow???
nik39 12:53 PM - 4 April, 2007
Of course I will support EMI's idea wherever I can. That does not mean I will buy music from EMI only from now on ;)