Soulja Boy! lol I'm kidding ! Don't attack me. I can't come up with a top ten. But some honorable mentions

fat boys
grandmaster flash
naughty by nature
rodney o
ice-t

And that my friends = end of thread

1. soulja boy
2. Flo rida
3. Gucci Mane
4. mc hammer

Nah just kidding

1. biggie
2. jayz
3.nas
4. eminem
5. kanye
6. kurupt
7. 2pac
8. fabolous
9. jadakiss
10. redman/method man

1. Jay - Z ( most consistant and didnt die)
2. Notorious B.I.G
3. Andre Benjamin (Outkast)
4. Eminem
5. Big L
6. LL Cool J
7. Big Pun
8. Jadakiss
9. 2 Pac
10. Nas

Thats my top ten best rappers, but my favorite would be a little different, Jada would get bumped up a few spots and Pac wouldn't even be on the list (no westcoast)

Before i answer this question i need to know what are the criteria for a good "rapper" are we going with best lyrics best delivery best musically most love from the crowd ect ect......thats why its so hard to pick a top 10 list, because you have lyricists who can throw down gems of wordplay wo sound like crap or only have 1 tape in 19 years, or you can have a dude whose golden on the mic and is an awesome performer but only uses 4 letter words.

Guru no where on anyones list?

Whatever way you look at it. Lil Wayne isn't allowed in your top 10 Lol.

haha i was just at my barber shop and they were doing the same thing we had to write down our top 10 Mc's of all time here are mine.
1. Biggie
2. Jay-Z
3. Andre 3000
4. Eminem
5. 2 Pac
6. Nas
7. LL Cool J
8. KRS 1
9. BIG PUN
10. Mase

now these are what i think are the best wich to be honest i think there are alot more that could be added but . but don't get it twisted these are not all just my favorite.

1. Prodigy (pre infamy days)
2. Styles P
3. LL Cool J
4. Notorious BIG
5. 50 Cent (a few dodgy singles aside I think he's worthy of a top 10 spot)
6. Lil Fame
7. Big Daddy Kane
8. Big Pun
9. Kool G Rap
10. Jay Z

Probably forgetting loads but these are some of the people I can always listen to and don't have to be in a mood for and they all have reasonable longevity. There are a few westcoast rappers that are as nice, but when it comes to it I prefer the New York mid 90's style beats and that type of rapper.

An interesting thread would be top 10 newish rappers. Tastes aside most people are going to be churning over the same 50 rappers or so.

My newish top 10 would be

1. Saigon
2. Uncle Murda
3. Hell Rell
4. Rick Ross
5. T.I.
6. Young Jeezy
7. Max B
8. Guilty Simpson
9. ????
10. ????

And I'm struggling to think of a newish rapper in the last 5 years or so that I rate that highly.

really cool that so many people put ll cool j on their lists. his 80s albums are incredible...

1) Andre Benjamin
2) Jay-Z
3) Biggie
4) Rakim
5) 2pac
6) Big Pun
7) Nas
8) LL Cool J is hard as hell
9) Common
10) Eminem

Honorable Mention: Black Thought, Mos Def, Big Daddy Kane, Erick Sermon, Method Man

Dy-lan, Dy-lan, Dy-lan, Dy-lan, Dy-lan, Dy-lan, Dy-lan, Dy-lan, Dy-lan, and Dy-lan

Dr. Dre???? top rapper???

1. KRS-One
2. Rakim
3. LL Cool J
4. Run DMC
5. Biggie
6. Eminem
7. Just Ice
8. Melle Mel
9. Naughty By Nature
10. 2 Pac/Lauryn Hill

1. andre 3000
2. KRS
3. ice cube
4.nas
5. big daddy kane
6.rakim
7. LL
8. Luda
9. run
10. ras kas
10. black thought
10. mr. scarface

honaorable mention: brotha j (x-clan) and chuck-d

I was about to ask what's up with no KRS, Chuck D, Rakim, Q-Tip, Melle Mel, ODB, Red & Meth, Ghostface, etc...

1. MF Doom
2. Sean Price
3. Jay-Z
4. Ghostface
5. Phonte
6. Jay Electronica
7. 50 Cent
8. Biggie
9. The Clipse (Malice and Pusha both)
10. J Dilla

I guess I came up with this list based on what I find myself coming back listening to over and over again.

I also think Dilla is underrated as an MC. Dude only raps about bling and whips, but with so much 'pizazz'

Yo I'm like if you hot in 'em what you buyin 'em for?
Get your shine on, it's time to blind 'em all
Don't worry 'bout the haters you can shake they ass
When they can't get they taste of the cake they mad
And these backpackers wanna confuse it
Niggaz is icey ain't got nothin to do with the music
So hater mind your biz and get your own
You know what, time it is we get that glow

1.rakim
2. notorious big
3. KRS
4.andre 3000
5. big daddy kane
6. LL Cool J
7. nas
8. Luda
9. chuck d
10. ice cube


The old school list vs the new school list would be very different...

I ain't gonna front Luda is nice.....Fabalous is too...

No one has mentioned Vanilla Ice

Right, this isn't a 1 hit wonder thread...

I'd change some rankings, but gonna have to agree and possibly drop Luda (I think he's great) and replace w/ Em.

I agree with Nins list.

What's wrong with Lil Wayne? Best rapper alive? lol

His metaphors are nice!

Dre is a great producer. In fact, one of the all-time greats. He's responsible for countless classics. But as far just spitting flow, he's not so great.

Dre can't be on the list he has always had a ghost writer, so for west coast heads replace him with Ice Cube

DJ AM died today :(

www.tmz.com

My top 10 fave rappers

dj am
dj am
dj am
dj am
dj am
dj am
dj am
dj am
dj am
and Dylon

Biggie
Jay-z
Nas
Big L
Big pun
Ghostface
LL
Eminem
Rakim
Big daddy kane

..... no particular order

1. Biggie
2. 2pac
3. Jay-Z
4. Nas
5. Gang Starr
6. Too $hort
7. Mobb Deep
8. Snoop (except No-Limit)
9. Big L
10. AZ
10. Gang Starr

gangstar wasn't a rapper, guru was/is

Whose the best rappers in the world right now? Think about it.


1.Dylan
2.Dylan
3.Dylan
4.Dylan
5.Dylan
6.Dylan
7.Dylan
8.Dylan
9.Dylan
10.Dylan


Because I spit hot FIRE!



LOL

My Fav's
1. Biggie
2. Jay-Z
3. Nas
4. Eminem
5. Jadakiss
6. Big L
7. KRS-One
8. Rakim
9. C.L. Smooth
10. Mr. Cheeks (No Homo! LOL)

Agree with most of the lists....

to many variables though for just 10.

What about Scarface or even Devin the Dude?

Lord Finesse, AG, Q-Tip, Phife, Jeru....etc.

2 many variables

My top 10

1. 2pac
2. Biggie
3. Jay-Z
4. Nas
5. Eminem
6. Big L
7. Big Pun
8. Common
9. ll cool j (80's & 90's only!)
10. Ludacris

My list is comprised of my top 10 MC's not rappers. There is a difference.

1. Rakim
2. LL Cool J
3. KRS1
4. MC Lyte
5. Big Daddy Kane
6. Jean Grae
7. Kool Moe Dee
8. Luda
9. Melle Mel
10.T-LA Rock



DeeJay Adam, only 2 were rappers... the 3 groups.

My list would be:

1.Rakim
2.KRS One
3.Nas
4.Big Daddy Kane
5.LL Cool J
6.Biggie
7.Jay-Z
8.Chuck D
9.Kool G Rap
10.Eminem

Honorable mentions to Mr.Lif, Binary Star, Guru, Cage, Talib Kweli, Company Flow.

I never liked Guru, i have always for my entire life thought he was average at best, let other people have those primo beats and they'd be so much better then Gangstarr was. The joint with Royce over the Primo beat a few years back was bananas. Guru is so average,

Also thumbs down to your Talib and not mentioning Mos Def, Mos carried Blackstarr

damn, how could i forget g rap & kiss..... smh

Kool Moe Dee??

I agree that Guru isn't a top 10 rapper but he's definitely not average either. He doesn't have the greatest flow but lyrically he is a beast.

Talib Kweli used to be one of my favorite emcees but he fell off a lot after he dropped "Quality" IMO.

Massive thumbs down on both points...Gangstarr were a perfect partnership and have produced quite a few classic albums...how can you say "let other people have those Primo beats and they'd be so much better than Gangstarr was"...that just astounds me...The track your talking about with Royce is probably Boom, and while that is a bonafide classic, making a coherant and classic LP is a lot different to making a good 12"..Gangstarr are one of, if not THE most consistent Hip-Hop group of all time.

And while I concede that Talib's stock has fallen in the last few years, to say he carried Blackstarr is bizarre.

Gucci Mane...lol jk

No particular order

Jay-Z
Notorious B.I.G.
Redman
Method Man
Ice Cube
Ghostface Killah
Eminem
Big Pun
Andre 3000
GZA
Ludacris

MAn Its tough to narrow it down to a top ten there are so many more people who I would like to add in.

Honourable mention in the vein of Caramacs New school Artists

1 Papoose
2 T.I.
3 Saigon
4 Sourkrates
5 ???????

FAve UK Rappers

Skinnyman - No one can touch him siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick MC
Sway
Chester P
Cristyle P
MC Riz

Do The MC's Have To Be Dead To Be On The List! Is It Dead Or Alive

LIL WAYNE

is the best ;D

I Don't Think So, If You Look At The Lists, Not All Of The Rappers Are Dead

Yeah 70% of my list is still alive

Kid Frost

My God.... Why do I only see mention of Kool G Rap once?? He might even be a top 3 rapper. =P



5. Joell Ortiz
6.Royce 5'9

I really dont mind Talib that much i find him not very good today but before he was just truly inconsistant to me. He would try to fill his verses will so many punch lines that half of them would be wack as shit. But when Talib is on he is really dope, just very inconsistant in my eyes so i don't put him up there.

Guru is average at best, primo is the only reason most people like gangstarr, With Royce i was thinking of "hip-hop" but "Boom" "My Friend" and "Shake this" are all dope. I just find tons of MCs that would shit all over guru with beats he was given. If you look at the Primo tracks, Biggie, Jay, Nas, and Royce its better then Guru's stuff. I think Gangstarr is a dope group but i think Guru could have been replaced a few times over and made a better group with Primo.



7. Lupe
8. Phonte
9. J. Cole

I dont know if Royce is very new school, but def. one of the dopes internet rappers around these days. Saigon will always be known as one of those shoulda beens. I have been waiting for the greatest story never told since Shock TV, i just dont think he is ever gonig to come around and put out an album.

Kool Moe Dee!!!



G Rap was a beast... But, I wouldn't know who to take off my list.

You better find somebody... like Kool Moe Dee! I haven't heard a Kool G verse in a couple years, but when I heard him, he didn't lose a step. Seriously.

1. Rakim
2. Jay-Z
3. NAS
4. Talib Kweli
5. Biggy
6. Mos Def
7. Common
8. KRS
9. Guru
10. Jay Electronica

1. Tribe Called Quest - If I had to pick 1 (Q-Tip)
2. Pharoahe Monch
3. Rakim
4. Black Star - If I had to pick 1 (Mos Def)
5. Gang Star
6. Notorious BIG
7. Common
8. Nas
9. Jay-Z
10. Wu-Tang Clan - If I had to pick 1 (Ghostface)

Just mine.

how about Shaq guys?

Shaq spits the realness...

nah, nah, let me continue
I'm a be like D-Rock and see what's next on the menu,
mic-checka, the rim and rhyme wrecka,
rocks from here to Mecca,
boom shack-a-lak-a-lak-a,
I got a hand that'll rock ya cradle,
cream you like cheese, spread you on my bagle,
my Ford Explorer boomin' with the clumped-up funk,
all you jealous punks can't stop my dunks,
they're brand new like Heavy,
built like Chevy, Impala,
but Shaq's a smooth balla,
(yeah, but what about rhymin?)
I can hold my own,
knick-knack shaq-attack, give a dog a bone,
rhymin is like hoopin', I'm already a legend,
back in the days in the Fush-camp section,
used to kick rhymes like baby, baby, baby,
every once, every twice, three times a lady,
is what I listend to, riding with my moms,
how you like me now? I drop bombs,
when you see me, please tap my hands,
I know I got skills man, I know I got skills

No Particular Order:

2Pac
Scarface
Ice Cube
Nas
Jay-Z
Black Thought
Big Pun
Rakim
Eminem
Notorious B.I.G.

Honorable Mention: AZ, Busta Rhymes, LL, Prodigy (Infamous & Hell On Earth Era)

"cuz i spit hot fiya!"

Bobby Jimmy And The Critters
Insane Clown Posse
Rappin' Duke
Master P
Fred Durst

YOU HAVE LOST YOUR MIND!!! Have you reeeeaaally checked his lyrical content. He spit fire for years. He may be really old school but MY GOODNESS... I mean... like... FOR REAL!!!

Biggie
2Pac
Nas
Big L
Big Pun
Jay-Z
Eminem
Rakim
KRS-One
Talib Kweli

1. Dj Premier
2. Nas
3. Biggie
4. A Tribe Called Quest
5. KRS-One
6. Talib Kweli
7. Big Pun
8. Black Thought
9. Gangstart
10. Mr. Lif


and so muchhh!!!

Common and Mos Def are a must in a top ten. Both are some of my favorite mc's. Their lyrics and content are by far the most consistent in the game today.

I would definitely put Big L on my top 10..

when will this rap crap just die already!!!! when you got a respected rapper named nas claiming hip hop is dead why cant people go with it, rap music is for people that want to act hard in their car or in the club, it causes nothing but problems and fights...if any of you nay sayers disagree than youre delusional, hip hop clubs has more violence breaking out then a euro or a top 40s club...this is a true statement

Get a grip Sofanda...Hip-Hop was started as a way of uniting cultures and races, just because their is a thug element to it doesn't mean you have the right to generalise a WHOLE genre of music!. Hip-Hop in Europe is still absolutely huge and when I go to a Hip-Hop club night there is always great vibes there..people breaking, good DJ's and a nice crowd...now if you have had some bad experiences in the past then bad luck, but dont be so ignorant and one sided...Hip-Hop will live on...it has outlived a whole load of musical styles and will continue to do so...so put a bit more thought into your posts before you spout off with drivel..clown.

Get a grip Sofanda...Hip-Hop was started as a way of uniting cultures and races, just because their is a thug element to it doesn't mean you have the right to generalise a WHOLE genre of music!. Hip-Hop in Europe is still absolutely huge and when I go to a Hip-Hop club night there is always great vibes there..people breaking, good DJ's and a nice crowd...now if you have had some bad experiences in the past then bad luck, but dont be so ignorant and one sided...Hip-Hop will live on...it has outlived a whole load of musical styles and will continue to do so...so put a bit more thought into your posts before you spout off with drivel..clown.

you went to one hip hop club in europe so you just generalised the whole genre in your aspect. statistics all across US proves that hip hop clubs with rap music incites more violent intentions than any genre and this cant be refuted with expereince with club owners and patrons alike. im talking abou rap music not the so called hip hop concious rap. rap music is dying and people are straying away from that nonsense. why do you think so many more people are turning to oldies like disco and rock and club owners are looking more for top 40 dance chart toppers than violent infused rap crap? look at that clown little wayne, he had that prom queen song which is rock and that whole album was to be all rock LOL

#1 ???????

What a bunch of bullshit!!!!!

Thats like me saying house music was founded by the gay community therefore everyone who listens to house must be a gay or a fag hag!!!!

Your whole logic is flawed. Sit down read a book & come back when you have some knowledge of what you are talking about!! As at the moment you clearly have no idea about hip hop music. You dont like it. Ok fine dont come in & talk shit about it. Your being more negative than the HIP HOP FANS YOUR MOANING ABOUT!!!!!

its absolutely true... wanna know why??

cause everyone @ those clubs are on EXTASY, in hip hop clubs they're servin up lots of liquor, which is known to make people violent. Last time i checked E & liquor don't mix

I'll bet theres more drug overdoses in euro/top40 clubs than hip hop clubs

I LIVE in Europe you idiot...I have been to Hip-Hop clubs in France, Spain, UK, Ireland and their is no better place to be than a Hip-Hop jam in my opinion..where are you getting these statistics from..are their even any statistics at all to back up your claims..you need to open your mind my friend and take heed of what might be going on around the world before you blame Hip-Hop music for any sort of trouble you get in clubs..world wide recession, wars etc etc...you are a narrow minded punk who probably hasn't been to a club outside his own city...plus your a virtual DJ..heh heh...that makes you a virtual wanker in my book.

if u don't like hip hop, why would u even open a thread entitled top 10 rappers... TROLL!

Why not. My picks...

1. Rakim
2. KRS
3. Nas
4. Biggie
5. Ghostface
6. Kool Keith
7. Ice T
8. Redman
9. Roxanne Shante
10. Chali 2na

if these are the best how come they are rarely heard today? instead of them stanky leg kids-Jay-z is the closest thing to a top 10 rapper thats getting play and i'm getting tired of him- thanx for mentioning BlackThought (ROOTS) G-Rap and Moe Dee (was ahead of his time back then), did some one say Kool Kieth? -I think the hole Juice crew wrote for Shante

Fuck I can't come up with a list, but i have a few names........ Everyone says Jay-Z of course, i think Twista is an honorable mention. Ludacris is a honorable mention, Scarface is an honorable mention. Young Jeezy is an honorable mention, T.I. is an honorable mention. Talib Kweli is an honorable mention, Drake he is an honorable mention, Lil Wayne, Common, Mos Def, Q-Tip, Damn i can go all day. But it depends on the person listening to the music. Because some say Lil Wayne is garbage but i beg to differ. Dude is still in his prime and making shit happen.

I'm going to do a serious U-turn lol. I was listening to some of the Lil Wayne stuff the other day and he actually isn't that bad when you get past his voice. He comes across a bit like an abstract back pack rapper at times.

man i dont know what yall talkin about

best rappers of all time

de b:

soulja boy
gucci mane
lil wizzy f baby
drake - ima call it on this one
plies
lil jon
50cent
flo rida

all uddas is lamez - i source most of tihs from mtv

LOL at Lil Jon


Whaaaaaat!?!?

are you serious??

based on what body of work?

oh my...and I thought we could be friends Caramac lol

Its good to see so many mentions of Big Daddy Kane, who get left off lots of these lists. Lord Finesse should have been mentioned allot more then once - and he is a good DJ. Whats sad is no one mentions Busta Rhymes.

Lol I was getting my hair braided and the girl had on some of his tunes in the background and they actually weren't that bad. He's no Rakim lol.

and as for Busta. I've always liked him but don't think he really showed his depth until the Big Bang album. That was a very well rounded album and I wasily say his best to date.

Roxanne Shante????!!!! ummmm..... uhhh... I mean.... you know... if you uhhh. I mean, you're entitled to your opinion... but... somebody help me out here.......

Your 1st 4 I can understand. But, no LL? Big Daddy? G-Rap? Melle Mel? Somebody from your neighborhood... a passer by... an imaginary friend. Heck!!! MAKE UP A NAME.

SOMEBODY HELP ME OUT!!!!!!!!!

Bite your tongue. Roxanne was the SHARPEST out at her time....

Stop playin.

Her time... hmmmm... ok. Queen Latifah, MC Lyte, Sparky D, Antoinette ect. Roxanne was aight and she did have a few nice cuts but...

A female will never crack my top 10.. just something about them rapping make me cringe.

Have you even listened to some that we've named?

1.Krs-1
2.Biggie
3.Rakim
4.Big Pun
5.LL Cool J
6.Paris
7.50 Cent
8.Dr. DRE
9.2 Pac
10.Fushnickens

Gorilla Zoe
Lil Boosie
Yung Joc
OJ Da Juiceman
Ron Browz
Pliez
Flo Rida
Webbie
The New Boyz

I'm 13yrs old.

I completely forgot about Paris. He was sick.

She was the first, and went against BDP, who STILL is the Teacher.

Queen, Lyte, and the rest of them followed in her footsteps...

C'mon, man, she said dude had a names soundin' like a WHACK RADIO STATION.

And when T La Rock said "It's Yours", he DIDN'T mean his name.

Nobody can fuck with that.

Of course, i feel like i study Hip Hop more then listen... Music on all the time, i just think one of the main reasons you should be in the top 10 is consistency and females to me aren't consistent.

I mean i put Jay on top on my list over Biggie (personal fav) because of longevity. I know its not Mr. Wallace's fault he didn't get to continue his career but I can't justify him being number 1 when Jay has 11 Number 1 albums now, does a great job (as biggie did) of finding a balance between mainstream and meaningful.

Shit like Big pimpin is a mainstream hit, BUT Jay's verse on that track is really quite good.

I don't remember if i put Eminem on my list, i think that guy has more talent then just about anyone in the game, but he can't make an album to save his life. You hear songs like Stan and think that this guy could be so great but then the next track is about killing his wife and shit was comical the first time but it gets old...

I think i have a problem with female voices, some voices just don't sound right (see Hurricane Chris & Plies). And females fit that description just not the right voice for hip hop to me. Sorry for that novel.

My part for the WOMEN OF HIP-HOP party haha

Watchwww.youtube.com
Watchwww.youtube.com
Watchwww.youtube.com
Watchwww.youtube.com (No one mentioned this lady??)
Watchwww.youtube.com
Watchwww.youtube.com (best female in Hip-Hop)
Watchwww.youtube.com
Watchwww.youtube.com (classic track)
Watchwww.youtube.com (Before she turned REAL poppy)
Watchwww.youtube.com (Another British emcee)

Jean Grae is really dope... i forgot about her... and lauryn hill if that counts as hip hop

Yeah, Jean Grae is a class emcee...and Lauryn Hill....if that counts as Hip-Hop?...she may have been more of a singer in later years but she was as Hip-Hop as they come.

Lauryn Hill was the best female mc of all time IMO

Behave she was nice but the best of all time is a bit of an exaggeration.

1) Lil Wayne
2) Kanye
3) Jay-Z
4) Tupac
5) Eminem
6) 50 cent
7) NAS
8) Fabolous
9) Jada Kiss
10) T.I.

I respect old school and East Coast rappers. But it's just not MY favorite music to listen to. I would also consider myself to be more newschool than old school. The rappers on my list, in my opinioin have appealed to the masses and are mainstream...but it cannot be denied that they have talent. They are on a much different level than Lil Boosie, Lil Webbie, Soulja Boy, Bow Wow, Flo Rida, Black Eyed Peas, etc.

Who would you give the title to?

Depends on if I was picking my favourite or someone who I think is the G.O.A.T.

I'd probably say Mc Lyte for greatest. For favourite I'd go with Rah Digga, Heather B, Jean Grae or someone like that. I do like Lauryn don't get me wrong.

Even in the new school Lil wayne would not be near my list of top 10, and 2 Pac isn't new school.

P.S . your list is horrible.. haha

I've read many many many threads and posts on this forum LONG before posting...and I knew my list would not get any props. I'm cool with that. That's whats great about music, you will listen to what sounds best to you. I will listen to what sounds best to me. Neither is wrong.

Lil Wayne is one of the greatest lyricists of ALL TIME!!

I was like, OK, fair enough..he likes what he likes.



WTF!!...seriously?. You can like who you like and thats cool, but the G.O.A.T?...Lil Wayne?..get the ckuf outta here..I could name 20...f that..50 emcees that are better than him on the mic....Even Lil Wyne has a brain underneath them natty dreads to know he aint even close to being near the upper echelons of the emcee game, thats what you call great marketing..you start hearig "the greatest rapper alive" 500 times or so and you start believing that shit...well, kids and girls do, thats the demographic them ad campaigns are targetted towards.

damn quote fail

There can never be a real Top Ten list. Just can't happen. The illest that ever spit to me based on content of rhyme, presence & delivery are:
KRS-1
Rakim
Melle Mel
Kool Moe Dee
Nas
Jay-Z
Chuck D
Kool G Rap
LL Cool J
Eminem
Black Starr
Posdenous (De La Soul)
Craig G
Biggie
Big L
Mc Lyte
Big Daddy Kane
Black Thought
Ice Cube
Scarface
The WU
Common
Busta Rhyme
Big Pun

(Yes Pac is not on my list)

Ras Kass' latest video....He hasn't lost a step.

smokingsection.uproxx.com

1. Big Daddy Kane
2. Rakim
3. Kool G Rap
4. Jay Z
5. Biggie
6 Eminem
7 Big Pun
8 Black Thought
9 Tupac
10 LL Cool J

Honorable Mention:
Big L. I dont feel he had enough time to blow up before he passed. He was poised to wreck shit.

THAT IS A ILL LIST!!!!!!!!!!

She wasn't the 1st! The first on wax (yeah I said wax) was Sequence with more to follow. But like I said, Shante was aight but the females I listed would toast her. In fact Lyte would utterly destroy most (not all) on all our lists.

And as I stated in my first post... I listed emcees not rapppers. If you don't know the difference, I don't have time to explain it to you.

You get a pass... this time.

i agree with dylan... how bout fisticuffs??? lol

Number of #1 albums mean nothing. So many "RAPPERS" get over because of a dope beat and good producers. Let em drop the beat and then pick up the mic. SKILLZ IS SKILLZ. Listen to "Step Into A World" and see if you get the point. If you don't know the artist then the convo is over. And if MC Lyte wasn't consistant then what's your definition of it.

Aint it funny how not long ago people were posting about female emcees suck (in a round-a-bout way) and here we are now arguing over who would toast who...my vote goes for Jean Grae strictly cause she stayed Hip-Hop to the core) just...JUST...over Lyte and L.Hill.

G Spot Boyz
Shawty Lo
Lil Zane
and the guy who did the verse in Shoop - Salt N Peppa

Ok, let's be specific.

She was the first BATTLE FEMALE on wax. Let me explain the significance of that. REAL HipHop included the element of the BATTLE. None of those other FEMALE MC's were able to do what Shante' did, especially that early in the game.

Shante' went up against MALE MC's, and KRS was and is STILL undoubtably one of the BEST.

Her joint calling out the entire BDP crew is unmatched.

Are you KIDDING ME? BDP stands for BROKEN DOWN PUNKS? That demands respect from ANY AND EVERYONE...even KRS.

The element of BATTLE is what's missing today, not any gunplay, but lyrical destruction.

LYTE was "aittee" in my opinion, but she wasn't f*ckin' with KRS....STOP PLAYIN. She was battlin' other "Female" MC's...

So, there is your lesson today of what an "M.C" is, (no "emcee") if you really wanna drop "knowledge".

****Class dismissed*****

I like it :-)

How in the world has Del not come up yet???

Because its the top 10 rappers of all time thread...I like Del and I like the Heiroglyphics crew as a whole but they would not be in my top 10.

yo takin the best rapper of all time

Lil White

Vinnie Paz

He is always so mad... I find beauty in blood dripping from your faces.

Just so angry.

But go JMT.

Vinnie Paz would go in the most underrated rappers thread...along with Murs, Mr.Lif, Killah Priest, Louis Logic, Lucky Dice, Akrobatik, Reks...geez, there are just so many underrated emcees that the people listening to tish like Lil Wayne, Drake etc will never have the pleasure of listening to...Im rather happy with that to be honest heh heh.

OK How many of y'll believe Roxanne wrote that rhyme? do any 1 hear a lil kane, G-rap or craig g -hmmm? who was that chic that was rapping about sucker Dj's? actually I don't think any one can choose a top 10, thats what make this question so hard to answer

My Underrateds go to Brother Ali and Joe Budden, I have been on Team Budden since Mood Musik and love that depressed shit he puts out.

joel ortiz

That was Dimples D.

And let us not forget the jawn against UTFO....

I'm just sayin, they're not a Battle worthy group, but the point is she STILL put them out on Front Street.

Shante' hands down.

big l best rapper ever hands down

1. Tupac
2. Notorious B.I.G.
3. Jay Z
4. Eminem
5. 50 Cent
6. Nas
7. Lauren Hill
8. Lil Wayne
9. Snoop Dogg
10. Kanye West

You ain't a leader what nobody followed you
You was never shit your mother should have swallowed you

Possibly the best diss line i have ever heard in a song

Big L 7 minute freestyle and his verse from da graveyard. Don't forget about Ebonics.

And if you think I can't fuck with whoever, put your money up
Put your jewels up, no fuck it put your honey up
Put your raggedy house up nigga, or shut your mouth up

My fav Shante verse from "The Cypher":


Aiyyo, you're lost in the sauce, bitches still remain
Useless, but when I reign bitches can't sustain
the drama, word to momma bitch I leave you leakin
Roxanne Shante stay creepin
You sleepin but I stay armed, and dangerous
No matter what your name is, bitch I make you famous
A lot of bitches swear shit's sweet
But when I creep I'ma lace you from your head to your fuckin feet
Frankie Cutlass put me on so I'm back again
Ain't nothin changed it's still the same, ain't no smilin friend
I remember eighty-seven eighty-eight
I was the only one gettin weight from upstate
Gettin cake, Juice Crew All-Stars was my boys
Runnin round town baby makin mad noise
Backtrack turn back the page
Live on stage, wreckin niggaz at a early age
I was only fifteen thinkin big time
At the time blind all my eyes saw was goldmine
So all you fake Cristal sippin bitches
Here's a thirty-eight bitch, click it!
I didn't think so...

Can't argue wih that. I prefer Lyte but Jean Grae is a a lyrical beast!

Pass is over... STOP POSTING THAT CRAP!!!!!!!

OK... YOU GET THIS STRAIGHT! The whole B.D.P Crew was just KRS1, Scott and D-Nice. An EMCEE, a DJ and a producer. You make it sound like she called out 50 people. Like I said, she had a few nice cuts.

Oh by the way,

The 1st female battle emcee on wax .........................................





wait for it.................................









wait for it...........................














SHA-ROCK.... YA BUSTER!!!!! 1981

Shante followed her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You better go get your G.E.D. Classes are forming now. Call 1-800-447-8679

Figure it out son.

P.S. You do know why I say "emcee".... doooon't you?????

Nate Dogg isnt a rapper.

Shade Sheist and Warren G had a few hits back in the day but they arent top 10 rappers either.

West Coast Sucks

This is turning into a gang related forum -_-

haha... just generally not a fan of the music thats all... i do like Ice Cube though

And Skinny Jeans? Hella Gay

And WHO did she battle again?

Like I said, Shante' RIPPED BDP, and guess what....even if you say BDP was "Just" KRS-1, ummmmm....

ITS' KRS-ONE FOO!!!!!!!!!!

That's the TEACHER, and she cut no shorts at goin' after his jugular SON!

People STILL can't f*ck with him today....

And if you're in Billboards' Top 10, he's ALREADY written a Battle Rhyme for dat azz.

That's A REAL MC rite THURR...and she went for broke.

Long live the REAL QUEEN!

You still on that "Lyte" shit...

You probably dring Bud "Lyte" too......

I miss battles where people were man enough to say "yup i got did just now" and not have to go shoot the guy for beating you on wax.

While I disagree with artists like Warren G, Shade Sheist (hahaha) and Nate Dogg (?) I totally disagree with the statement that the west coast sucks...ummm...wait a sec...Ice-T, NWA, D.O.C, Dilated Peoples, Defari, Alkaholiks, Lootpack, J5, Chino XL, Souls Of Mischief, Del, Ras Kaas, Saafir, King Tee....the list goes on...really, think before you post silly things.

WOW, no one respects what Canibus was spitting???? Besides his raspy voice and weak laid beats minus the Stoupe produced one, he had spit more fire than any trees in Cali had ever seen.... From his Wake Up show frees to the fact he battled most of the WU Tang clan and killed all except Killah Priest.

Heres a freestlye joint he spit for a Clue mixtape

I speak at frequencies dogs would have trouble hearing
Canibus is the lyrical version of German engineering
Raw metaphors keep you high for months
Fly around the earth twice without refueling once
Ain't too many categories I could fit in
When it come to spittin
Cuz I'm overqualified for tha position
The lazer guided lyrical hybrid
Creatin scripts so sick,
I gotta arm wrestle my pen to write it
Don't get excited
cuz if I ever catch one of you motherfuckers biting
We're going to be fist fighting
So motherfucker what you want?
I have the shotgun pumped
You feel like a frog nigga, then jump.
I posess the lyrical ammo to battle
and rip any one of you warm blooded mammals to shambles.
I'll make examples of you and eat a mouth full of your crew
The type of emcee you can't outdo
i'll battle you on the net
I'll battle you in the flesh
I'll battle you over the phone you can call me collect
I'll battle you for the respect
I'll battle you over the
I'll battle you over a blank check
I'll battle you with a gun to my neck
I'll battle you standing over the toilet with my dick out
i'll battle you juggling a hand grenade with the pin out
In a stolen car with the fin number ripped out
Drinking a Guiness Stout
doing a 360 spinout.


also Redman gets my vote, he'll shit on almost anyone if you really wanna bring Reggie out, haha

Not a huge Canibus fan but Reggie Noble is serious on the mic

I'll take Jin over Canibus.

pfffft

FAIL.

lol.

I'll take cannabis over gin

Maaaaan, I'm havin' too much fun with this! This is the way it should go. Two differing opinions (though mine is right :0) (had to throw one more in there) with real knowledge dropped. A lot of young cats won't chime in because they most likely can't go back more than 5 or 10 years so there is no way they could have a valid opinion on a 10 ten.

And, I don't drink , smoke or do drugs. Never have. Never will.

Sha Rock battle in the streets before it was done on wax. Then she came out and did her thing.

All of these lists with Ice Cube as the sole "west coast" representative...
He's definitely held his own over the years, but let's loosen up your Timbs and give some other artists credit on the West Coast also.

I'm sure it's all regional preference...so don't mind my rant. :)

I already responded to that...ill copy n paste it again lol.

While I disagree with artists like Warren G, Shade Sheist (hahaha) and Nate Dogg (?) I totally disagree with the statement that the west coast sucks...ummm...wait a sec...Ice-T, NWA, D.O.C, Dilated Peoples, Defari, Alkaholiks, Lootpack, J5, Chino XL, Souls Of Mischief, Del, Ras Kaas, Saafir, King Tee....the list goes on...really, think before you post silly things

I forgot about Canibus. Him and LL spit flames. The tightest reply was whan Canibus said about LL, "99% of your fans wear high heels". And LL came back with, "99% of your fans don't exsist".

I agree with the above....

And for some of the younger folks on the Board:

DJ Quik, Suga Free, AMG, Westside Connection, Hi C, 2nd II None, MC Eiht, Kam...along with Daz, Kurupt, Tash, and yes X-Zibit held down the 90's out in the coast.

Even the lil cliques & homey affiliates of some of the bigger names held it down:
The Comrads, Tha Twins, Jay O Felony, Eastsidaz

and I have yet to even mention any of the Artists that held down the BAY....because it's too many of them!

The name of the thread is TOP TEN RAPPERS, not TOP TEN MCS.

Feel free to add more West Coast Rappers. If it were TOP TEN MCs, only Ice Cube, one or two others, and some underground MCs would even qualify.

I have to agree that it's good to joust with someone who has a SMIDGE more knowledge of the HipHop (No Rap :-)) Game.

I too, have never smoke or done drugs...Never have, never will.

My vision ain't blurry!

But I will accept your decision to concede, and will mention that you were a very spry opponent, but we all knew how it was going to end....lol.

Good Work, so you can now BEST Go About Your Way.....

And Have A Nice Day..... :-D

Yes, LL'S lyrical prowness was UNMATCHED, and he seemed to create his raps using a Thesaurus.

I Need A Beat was WAYYYYYYYYY before it's time....

What was particularly great about that song, was that he actually was Rapping about what he was doing with the song. For example, he'd say "Break"...and the joint went into a "Break", "Break 2!", and so on and so forth.

The Original Rock The Bells is my favorite...

So don't NEVER EVER, In ANY type of weather...
Try to mess with the tall young legend in leather...
LL, servin' 'em well, the beat elevates, and the scratch excels...

Rock The Bells.

Pure HipHop Gospel

I love Jack The Ripper...still play it to this day...its a pity that most people only know LL from Hey Lover and the wack shit he brought out later in his career.

LL turned his own fans away. Sell out bitch.
Canibus is really interesting to me because of his potential & constant ability to not shine. That Undergods album (Keith Murray & Canibus) sounds awesome in theory but the advance tracks are lame.

Rappers who interest me still:
Canibus
Keith Murray
Redman
Ice Cube
Murs
Black Milk (producer rappers hug the beat so nice)
Masta Ace
Skillz
Phonte
KRS-One
Phife Dawg

dont forget that LL had a love song on his first LP

What is the difference between Rapper and MC? To me they are the same as what KRS has says, Rapping is something you do, Hip Hop something you live.

No matter how cornball or how hard or how lyrical, they are still representing the element of hip hop which is rapping.

The Element is MC, not rapping.

Not all good rappers are good MCs.

MCing is about performing lyrical skills. There is a whole lot of other crap that can make you a good rapper. You can rap good songs that dont show off any lyrical skill and so on...

Anybody can RAP. MC's are a certain breed.

I USED to think this way, when he started catering ONLY to the chicks.

Seemed to have started with "Around The Way Girl", he got his muscle game up, and there weren't any more MC's for him to demolish.

And DEMOLISH, he did. When he had a battle record coming out, the entire HipHop community was ON IT. I remember chills going down my spine hearing the Courageous Cat and Minute Mouse theme music in I'm Bad, and the line of "Forget Oreos, EAT COOL J COOKIES"....

It's like the entire Tri-State area all Gasped at the same time.

And that's another thing. There's no way to control the dispersion of a song right now. EVERYBODY had to listen to Mr. Magic to hear the impending Battle cut.

Now, "Leaked" mixtape CD's are the courier. WHACK.

But I will give it to LL, he stayed in the public eye, be it movies, TV shows, fighting Jaime Foxx, scandals about plastic surgery on his 6 pack, he stayed OUT there.

DMX tried it on a certain level - Movies, going to jail, an occasional song, going to jail, did I mention, going to jail?

His name is still out there too...

+ a gajillion!!!

Redman is a fucking beast!!!!

So is that why Mos Def is not on anyone's list?

Twista is a great Rapper IMO.

Where do all those Texas Rappers rank?

actually he had 2

"i can give you more" and "i want you"

I like his early stuff too but the love songs got him paid. And I do agree that he sold out. You know... record sales, stadiums, magazines, ect. Stop hatin'!

Selling out means that you change your shit to make money - which is not really what LL did.

Agreed

^^ You think? Twista has a mean flow. Not a massive fan of his tunes to be honest and I'm actually surprised that he's acheived the success he has but he's deifnitely talented in the rapper's rapper type way.

Like I said, I USED to think that way, (that he sold out), but who really supports rappers after a few short hits?

NOBODY really....

So, he could have chosen to have stayed Hard (no homo) for the fellas, and ended his career VERY early, or he could have chosen to go the route he did, and stay in the public eye.

No brainer.

That is PRECISELY what he did. He was initially for the Battle Rappers and everyone who wanted a piece.

He flipped that to being a "Ladies Rapper", and got paid.

He did not stay true to the streets...

He stayed true to Chasing a CHECK....and I ain't mad at that...

I don't seem to understand why people are putting non legendary names on this thread. To be top 10 or top of any list...you have to be the best. I'm seeing some real sorry scrub ass names being put out there. To be on a top list means their career is unforgettable in the history of their genre. Kane, Rakim, KRS, Kool G, LL, Chuck D...etc. Please stop posting with the one hit song rappers and the mixtape rappers.

BTW...I noticed no one mentioned Supernatural.

Agree with 99% of yoru post. As for Supernat. I was never really into his music. I like Buddah Bless 12" though. I think his shows far outweighed his recordings.

So by your logic, if you cant spit wordplays, punchlines, multis and paint a picture with words, then youre not an emcee? Basically, just a rapper that hasnt a hint of hip hop essence? Perfect example that doenst follow your theory is Buckshot. He cant spit for a damn but yet he is one of the early "backpackers" with a 5 mic album Black Moon (Enta Da Stage). Hell half the Duckdown camp arent lyrically inclined but are pure representation of hip hop. Another perfect group would be Das Efx, they started the whole cheez "diggity" to hide fact they also were entry level rhyme sayers. But they could move a crowd like the red sea and that right there is a piece of rapping that makes you a good rapper.

Like I said before no matter how corny your ish is to push records like Cheezy Jeezy, Cucci Mang, OJ "Jack Lalanne" Juicerman etc they are still representing that art of hip hop. Exploitation at best just to line their pockets as its clearly shown their heartt n soul isnt into it like the real "emcees".

This thread was destined to start arguments. Lol.

*puts boxing gloves on*

How are the bootcamp not lyrical? Sean Price is a monstor on the mic.

I didnt say the whole camp, i said half. OGC arent really that lyrical but Da Storm and M-Pire were hotness!!!

Heltah Skeltah were dope. I still listen to "Nocturnal" on the reg

Lol ok agreed. I brought Da Storm album on the sheer quality of everything that had preceeded it at the time.

You say that you gotta be unforgettable in the history of their genre (which is true) but then ask why no one mentioned Supernatural?...while I think he is a great MC I dont think he has put out nowhere near enough quality material to be mentioned on this list aswell.

I mentioned Supernat in response of all the other cats that was put out there. He can spit lyrical circles around them. His freestyles, flow, & delivery are legendary. Him not being able to keep a deal has kept him from being one of the illest ever.

Yep, I agree, but you always seem to find that the illest freestylers never really cut it on the album front...dont know why that is..love the "Work It Out" track from the Lost Freestyles LP...great track.

You can not be more wrong here. a) His name has always been Ladies Love Cool J, not Men Love Cool J. b) He put love songs on his FIRST album, and has always done love songs. If any thing he left the love songs off of future albums. Has he changed over the years, of course, every artist does. But he did not change his style to make love songs, - the most he did was guest on some r&b tracks when it was 'in' which he would have probably done anyway.

I'm not even a big LL fan.

If you are trying to make a point about who he was before he signed to Def Jam - anything he did before Radio is pretty much before his saga began. Does anyone know what he called himself before LL? I dont.

you are way off track from what I am talking about.

There are two different words, 'MC' and 'Rapper', they often mean the same exact thing, but sometimes they don't, I was drawing up the distinction to discus where they dont.

If you go into a studio and rap on a record, does that make you an MC? no. If you cant do that shit live you are not a Master of Ceremony. If you sell allot of record from rhyming, you might be called a great rapper (based on sales) but does that make you a great MC? No, you dont need to sell any records to be a great MC. People might love your gangsta, or your swagger, or your good looks, that might also help make you a great rapper, but does that make you a great MC? Fuck no, MC is about what you do on the mic. Maybe you are shrewd business fella, made lots of money and flipped your way into the rap game, and that might make you a great rapper, but not an MC. MC has nothing to do with how much money you got, how gangsta you are, where you come from, whatever type fame, or connects, or lucky brakes or records sold, or tours, or deals signed or any shit like that - its about one thing - MC is about what you do on the mic regardless of anything else.

You're KIDDING me right?

LL Loved HIMSELF more than any chick on the PLANET.

Everything was "I", "I", "I", "I"..

I Need A Beat
I Can't Live Without My Radio
I'm Dangerous
I'm Bad

He HAPPENED to include some "Love Songs" on his first album, but so did MC SHAN.

LL was a lyrical DESTROYER, and the bulk of his EARLY JOINTS were geared towards the other MC"s in the game....point blank.

You can only brag about yourself only SO MUCH....LOL.

And I'm a big LL fan, so I know.

Now ^^^^THIS^^^^ RITE HURR is GOSPEL.

um okay - second time in this thread someone tells me I dont know what I am talking about - then proceeds to NOT disagree with anything Im fucking saying.

you forgot another 'I' song - 'I need love', maybe he should have named himself I.L. Cool J.

Usually when someone says LL sold out (or plenty other rappers) its because he made a love song. They say this not remembering or knowing that he ALWAYS made love songs.

So how/what/where did LL sellout? because I dont see it.

So when you "sellout" by making a Love Song....is that the equivalent of Modern era Rappers 'Ja Ruling a song' i.e. Singin' their own hooks?

Not that they're in my top 10....but JVC F.O.R.C.E. was dope too.

:P

After Jack the Ripper, it was all downhill...lol.

STRONG ISLAND!!!!

so you think 'Mama Said knock You Out' was was a 'sell out' record?

you are on crack - not only did he not sell out with that record, but it was in no way "down hill"

*prepares for the flaming*

I never really minded Ja Rule. He was okay. No Top 10 though.

My mistake, I forgot Momma Said Knock You Out" came after Jack....

But AGAIN ! you've even proven my point...

THAT RECORD WAS FOR THE FELLAS....For the Battle Cats!

That's ^^^^^ the kind of stuff that put LL on the map....Busting into a CEO's office, hitting the play button, and going for BROKE....

THAT'S the element of Hiphop Battle....

You know I'm right....

No shit...he aint even top 250

ha, no thats something that I dont know - matter of fact I know otherwise.

do you know what sell out means? you cant sell out by doing something that you have always done. He has always made songs for ladies, from the start.

After MSKYO he might not have been as good, but things had really changed and its not really fair to judge...

Thing is that he did not set out to make 'softer music' or whatever your argument is in order to make more money. He made hard and soft music at the same time from the start.

So are you now saying that he 'sold out' after MSKYO??? Because if you are, whats the next LP? '14 Shots To The Dome' is that shit soft? I dont think so.

get your facts straight g

****School Bell Rings****

Ok, class is IN SESSION!

Certified BANGERS

Radio
I Need A Beat
I Can't Live W/O My Radio
Rock The Bells

Bigger and Deffer
I'm Bad
I Need Love
Go Cut Creator Go

Walking With A Panther
Goin' Back To Cali
Big Ole Butt
I'm That Type Of Guy
Jingling Baby

Mama Said Knock You Out
Title Song
The Boomin' System
6 Minutes of Pleasure
Around The Way Girl

****Here's where it gets "Softer"****

14 Shots to the Dome
Pink Cookies
Back Seat of My Jeep

Mr. Smith
Hey Lover
Doin' It
Loungin

Phenomenon
Title Track
4321
Father

GOAT
Imagine That
TAke it Off

10
Luv U Better

The DEFinition

Headspung
Hush

etc..etc..

So you're saying POST 14 Shots to the DOME he was killin it like the Albums PREVIOUS?

Stop playin.

****Bell Rings....Class Dismissed*****

Not to mention Jack The Ripper....but who needs to mention that? LOL.

umm - I never said he didnt fall off a little, I said he did not SELL OUT.

wreckognize that there is a difference between falling off a little and selling out

you are trying to say that he sold out with 14 Shots To The Dome?

you keep saying he was softer or whatever when he MADE LOVE SONGS FROM THE START.

If his first love songs were on 14 Shots then fine, he sold out. But he MADE LOVE SONGS FROM THE START. His formula has been pretty constant, Battle records + Love Records + Dance Records - pretty much every LP from first to last.

I can see that you are never going to get that in your dome piece (since you know I am right)

matter of fact, I challenge you:
pick out the softest song from 14 Shots

Softest song on 14 shots gotta be Back Seat.


( just answerin a question, not involved in the LL sellout beef )

That is LL at his finest for me...bad ass tune (like i said waaay back in this thread)

Yall talkin bout Jack the ripper, or The Ripper Strikes Back?

I love em both but the Ripper Strikes Back makes me wanna go fight someone. That beat is just bonkers.

I thought that beat sucked tbh..was glad that LL at least come back to something near his old self on the lyrical tip on that track though.

I hated the album, so I have no comment...

But you KNOW I'm right...

You keep saying "His formula has been pretty constant, Battle records + Love Records + Dance Records - "

That is NOT true.

He was doing BATTLE Records...THEN he came out with LOVE RECORDS, (and fell off), then he started the DANCE Records...

So you said it yourself, he changed styles each time....

He didn't do that formula for EACH album?

What DANCE record did he have on RADIO?

Once again just answering questions.


"You cant dance" was the "dance" song off that album.

So are DJ's soft when they would rather play a Britney song for that group of annoying overweight Bachelorette girls as supposed to that group of dudes who are itching to hear Swag Surfin'?

you should go pull out one of your Radio LPs and tell me how much harder "I Want You" is then any record on 14 Shots. 14 Shot To The Dome is where LL went soft, where he "sold out"?!?!?!?

crack is wack

Even if you never heard the album you can tell the shit is hard by the title.
14 Shots To The Dome

Go download it, listen to it on iTunes, whatever.
Name just one song on that album softer then "I want you" - Radio
Softer then "I need Love" - Bigger and Deffer
Softer then ""You're My Heart" - Walking With a Panther
Softer then "One Shot at Love" - Walking With a Panther
Softer then "Around The Way Girl" - Mama Said Knock You Out
Softer then "6 Minutes of Pleasure" - Mama Said Knock You Out

What record on '14 Sots to the Dome' is so soft that you claim he sold out????? You got it completely twisted. He started with slow songs and kept a formula Battle+Love+Dance.





So "I want you" off his FIRST LP is battle record? crack smoke - Its a soft love song, its on his first LP, same as the rest of the slow love songs you for whatever reason refuse to believe exist.



I didnt say that. But I doubt he would have any carer at all if he just kept making "Rock The Bells" on every album. He is an artist, of course he is going to change over the years. He was a high school kid when he came out, of course is is going to change. What is he supposed to do, put out 80s retro records his whole life? Its 2009, he supposed to rock pumas and kangols walking the street with a boom box for 25 years?

BUT just because he changed, does not mean that he "sold out".



As CMOS said: "You cant dance" was the "dance" song off that album.
which is obvious
but not only that, half or more of the album was 'dance' records (note: I did not say EDM or some shit). Kids was doing The Wop and The Cabage Patch, and the Troop dances to those records. Those records were getting played at clubs and school dances, he was making dance records back then, and today.

I had love songs on all his LPs starting with the first - its a simple fact.

On "Walking with a panther", don't forget about "It Gets No Rougher" and "Nitro". Lyrically tight!

He had a few OK cuts on "14 Shots" but for me it was more "14 shots to my wallet". I bought that just because it was him. That's the last album I bought on hype alone.

"The Ripper Strikes Back" was rediculous!!!!!!!!!!

What is with you and the "school" analogies. Ya killin' me kid. :)

This is like the Zapp thread all over again. Lol. Johnny keeps coming back round after round swinging wildly.

you should go pull out one of your Radio LPs and tell me how much harder "I Want You" is then any record on 14 Shots. 14 Shot To The Dome is where LL went soft, where he "sold out"?!?!?!?


But you just totally agreed with me here. 14 Shots to the Dome gives you the EXPECTATION that he is BACK killin' MC's but he's handing out Pink Cookies...WTF?

Man listen,

He changed up, and to SOME, he sold out....

Like I said, I USED to think like that, because I was a battle cat, and respected ANYBODY that would put down a good battle.

Then he LEFT us with a bunch of Pink Cookies. It didn't make sense then, (because I was young), but it makes PERFECT sense in the aspect of extending his career, reaching across different genres of people, breaking into movies, TV, and everything else that would support his lifestyle.

Will Smith followed suit, and look where he is. He was never a GREAT rapper, but he had the Baddest DJ, and had a niche for funny story RAPS, and before his 15 minutes of fame was up, he crossed over.

Will Smith could be President of the United States if he wanted to be.

And that's ANOTHER THING, people would buy LL's stuff JUST on the strength of it being LL, but if you put out enough joints NOT geared towards your listening pleasure, and people will abandon you.

All REAL MC's have love for the "OLD" LL, and everybody coins the phase like that, and there's a reason for it.

He SWITCHED UP.

What does this have to do with how "Hardcore" a DJ is for playing or not playing a type of music?

This was strictly from a Listener perspective (who happened to be a DJ).

Today, you have to play whatever will allow you to cash a CHECK.

Thus the sympathy for "Selling Out".

Hell, I went on a NO R.KELLY binge for a long time due to that court case.

Did people come up to me wanting to still hear him? YES

Was there a DJ lurking the background who WOULD play his music, no matter his personal opinion for a LOWER PRICE ANYWAY? YES

Did I want to end my DJ career at this local spot because of R. Kelly? NO.

Did I sell out...

YES...and went to the bank and CASHED THAT CHECK.

Are you kidding me?

You are taking the title of one song and trying to characterize the content of the entire album - HALF a song title, and claim the album title is misleading???

the entire song title:
pink cookies IN A PLASTIC BAG BEING CRUSHED BY A BUILDING

you forgot the 'crushed by a building' part

But lets look at the opening verses from this song:
"I'll take 30 electric chairs
and put'em in a classroom
30 MC's
and set'em free from thier doom.
just like a tomahawk cuts through the wind
when we begin
the wheel of furtune it spins
holdin'
the rhythm like elastic
moldin'
your whole body like plastic
so why try to deny what ya already know"

you already know, lol
now compare that to the opening verses from "I want you" off the album Radio (where you claim all L did was hard battle raps)

"I see you in between class when my mind does a task
One glimpse of your eyes and my heart beats fast
A mysterious fantasy, lovely young queen
You're poll so subtle just like the magazine
Come and visit my sister she's in the livin' room
Eat doughnuts and milk, listen to a pop tune"

Please explain how in your world the above is HARD BATTLE RHYMES
HAHAAAAA

this argument is so silly my friend



please go pull out 14 Shots to the Dome (sure you wont) and listen to these three songs
'How I'm Comin''
'Crossroads'
'Buckin' Em down'

Tell us how these songs are so soft. How are these songs softer then anything he has done in the past.

The softest thing about 'pink cookies IN A PLASTIC BAG BEING CRUSHED BY A BUILDING' is the Blind Ally sample. Its hardly even a 'love song'. If its the softest song on the LP, there are WAY SOFTER songs on each previous album (your so called battle records). He ALWAYS made soft love songs. He ALWAYS made soft love songs. He ALWAYS made soft love songs.




Oh I get it. Now its a good thing that LL sold out (according to you) because will Smith copied him and is pretty much the next Obama.

You should get a job with government as double speak propagandist.

I knew you would expand the scope from music to hollywood, whats next his personal life? He never came out against getting on TV, he never said he was going to die on Farmers blvd. He never sold out.

He changed as an artist, he changed with the times. But he ALWAYS from day one made love songs and dance songs. The ONLY LP without a love song is 14 Shots where you claim he sold out.

Do you even know what "sell out" means?
You have to actually compromise or go against previously stated ethics or stances. LL did nothing of the sort, and particularly not with 14 Shots.

Why dont you just admit that you were being a little too liberal throwing around the 'sell out' tag.

Avery single artist on the planet changes with the times or as an artist, pointing to how LL has changed styles (not even that much) over his 25 years of albums and calling it selling out is just ill-informed.

I can understand forgetting about how he dropped love songs or dance songs on his FIRST LPs, but once its pointed out - just fucking admit it.

anyway - thanks for bringing up 14 Shots because there are actually some good records on there that I forgot about.

I'd probably say it's my favourite album of his. But I'm slightly younger than you guys so maybe that's why.

I like how you take one aspect of what we're talking about and try and go on a tangent with it. Like you've built your case on smoke.

The point was that he SOLD OUT, to those of us who expected him to stay a BATTLE MC.

That's how he hit the Skreets. He put down a blueprint, kinda like TYSON when he first came out.

The "Love" songs of which you speak, were NOT his main forte'.

He was LL HARD AS HELL COOL J. Battle ANYBODY, I'on care you tell!

That was it.

Once he ran out of cats to battle, he went the Ladie's route....

Keep it real man, I'm not buying 14 Shots to the Dome.

Your claim is that this is where he "sold out". At first you forgot 'Mama Said Knock You Out', I am only talking about the little facts that YOU are presenting - this is YOUR case. Not mine. My case is that he used the same formula of [battle+love+dance] records for ALL of his albums, his whole career, the whole shit.

[tangent] Interestingly Def Jam, the entire label seams to have fallowed suit [battle+love+dance] records - there was never another Beastie Boys or PE [/tangent]


Sure, I think you believe he 'sold out' but your belief is based on faulty facts. You forgot about entire LPs - Mama Said Knock You Out. He battled Canibus well after 14 Shots. You forget about all the supper soft love songs on all his first LPs.



his blue print ---> battle+love+dance songs - 13 LPs pretty much same shit



Really, ask any female fan.
"I need Love" was a single from BAD. And he had a couple other soft singles from his first several LPs. so...


obviously not


He was making songs for the ladies from the very start. Love songs on his first LP - dropped love songs as singles starting with his second LP.



go to itunes or wherever and listen to some snippets

Like I said - you need to get your facts straight (always the case tho).


Let me put this little medley together for you presenting the actual facts:

First six songs are from LLs first four LPs
-according to you - before he "sold out".
couple these songs are so soft and weak I feel bad he even made them

Seventh song, softest song from 14 Shots, 'Pink Cookies in a Plastic Getting Crushed By Buildings' and a couple more tracks from 14 Shots.
-according to you - where he "sold out".
which is just ridiculous because it is probably his hardest album, somewhat of a backlash to people claiming he was soft

djkoolakiem.com

[ring] class dismissed - someone wake Johnny, hes sleep in class again - proly dreaming hes right about something

*****shows hallway Monitor Badge, and redirects you to detention*****

Ok, let's play the "FACTS" game as you claim.

Let's say for a FACT, that what you say is true:

1.) his blue print ---> battle+love+dance songs - 13 LPs pretty much same shit

2.) He was making songs for the ladies from the very start. Love songs on his first LP - dropped love songs as singles starting with his second LP.

And to "Prove this" you say "Really, ask any female fan."

Now that we've lined up your "FACTS", let's talk about the PERCEPTION of those "Facts".

Even if LL was the great "Ladies Man" MC, from the "Door" as you claim, the PERCEPTION was his initial jump into the RAP SCENE was that of a BATTLE RAPPER.

That's the PERCEPTION, no matter what formula you cook up. And you can ask ANYBODY who followed LL from the door.

Now let me explain how powerful perception is.

Say, you see a lady at work, and you think she is FINE. So you say, "Hello, my you look great today", and walk away.

Her PERCEPTION of you as far as your statement about her TO her can be perceived whichever way she wants...

So she makes a little trip down to HR to tell them that you are Sexually Harrassing her by OOGLING her, and making suggestive remarks to her, and now she considers you a threat.

HR calls you down, and tells you that you are being watched because you have a COMPLAINT against your Chauvanistic behavior.

It doesn't matter what the FACTS are concerning whatever you may have said to her, it all boils down to her PERCEPTION of what you said.

Now you gotta find another job.

So, your FACTS may loosely suggest that LL was a "LADIES' MC" from the door, but the PERCEPTION that everyone had in the BEGINNING was that he was a BATTLE RAPPER...

And that's all that matters.

*****hands you chalk to write on the board 100 X's, DJJOHNNYM is Right....Again*****

Lol at anybody hatin' on Uncle L...I mean C'mon man...1984-20?? Nuff Said!!
1. Uncle L -Longevity wins it here!
2. Rakim-Changed the whole delivery game up!
3. Cube-Opened everybodys eyes to the West coast (sorry Ice-T...lol!)
4. Scarface-Opened us to the South in like 88'
5. Kool G Rap (DJ Polo was wack..lol!)
6. Slick Rick-Storytellin' at it's best!!
7. Nas-Close 2nd to Rick but they were in two different eras, slick was first so he's 6
8. OutKast-Big Boi OR Andre 3000
9.KRS-1 Beast on the Mic but I always thought BDP's production was grimey..lol!
10. Quik- I know ya'll gonna hate but who else was flexin' the wheels,the mic,AND the Production since 89'....new stuff terrible but his production is still on point!

Thats pretty dishonest right there. "Really, ask any female fan" was not to proof anything other then females appreciated him, were fans of his, and perceived him as other then only a battle MC. Ive been to more then a couple girls bedrooms in that era who had big posters of him on the wall.

Let me restate my actual facts since you want to ignore them:

1) James Tod came out the gate with the name Ladies Love Cool J.

Does anyone disagree with this Fact? Isnt it reasonable to deduce that whatever else his aims where with his name that he did in fact aim to cater to female fans? I remember interviews where he said as much, but isnt it obvious?


2) He had 6 to 8 "soft love songs" on his first four albums.

Does anyone disagree? Clearly he was making love songs from the start, there is just no way around it. The songs had "love" in the titles, he was speaking to females, the beats were slow and soft.

3) Each of his albums had at least one love song, dance songs and battle songs.

I think this is because he was working from a formula that began with his first LP. But its just more evidence that he STARTED with love songs from day one.




I never said he was the the "great "Ladies Man" MC". Just that he named himself "Ladies Love" and started out with love songs on his first LP. Sure lots of people including me thought of him as a great battle MC (but who was not limited to battling). Each LP of his from Radio to MSKYO I put on cassette tape for listening in the car or the box - but I left off all the love songs.



THE perception? Dont you mean YOUR perception?

I bought Radio brand new out the store and I recognized back then that he was more then single dimensional. I didnt care for any thing but his hardcore persona (leaving soft songs off my tape) but I knew they were there. And females I know became fans because he "spoke to the ladies" from the start.

I agree with you - YOUR perception is different. And I am sure that there are people who agree with you - people for whatever reasons were not exposed to, forgot about, or otherwise want to ignore the existence of LLs early love songs.

But I think its silly to pretend those songs dont exist - they are right there for you and everyone else to listen to. "I want you" its right there on the first LP. His name is "Ladies Love" - right from jump. Was he only about love songs? Of course not. Did he have more battles raps then love raps? No question. so? He still started from day ONE with love songs. not even debatable.




You dont have to explain anything - your perception is a perfect example of its power, it distorts reality with ease in this case.


------

I just snipped your whole sexual harassment analogy, it doesnt make any sense to make an analogy which is more complicated then the actual situation.



All that matters is what you believe - facts mean nothing - right?

Any way - I was never arguing about what anyone or everyone perceived him to be. If you, anyone, or every single person on the planet earth thought of him as a battle rapper, I would not care. Fact of the matter, I looked at him as a battle rapper, and preferred his battle rhymes, dismissed the rest. But thats not what the fucking argument is about is it? No, its not.

The question was did he -->SELL OUT?<-- as you claim.

Interesting how you tried to shift the argument to "people thought of him as battle rapper" SO? You said he "SOLD OUT". Ha, andthefacts you have to back up this statement are incorrect at best.

Lets look at your facts:

1) He sold out after 'Jack the Ripper'

Which you conceded was bogus because you forgot about MSKYO (his best LP if ou ask me)

2) '14 Shots To The Dome' was where he went the "lover rout"

Its kind of a stretch to call "Pink Cookies" a love song, soft maybe. Actually and IRONICALLY 14 Shots is the only LP that I think did not fallow the battle+dance+love formula - because he left the love songs off of it.

AND THIS IS WHERE YOU CLAIM HE WENT THE "LOVE ROUTE"

Like I said, go get your facts straight first son, then come back and have some shit to say.

djkoolakiem.com
did johnny listen to the medley? of course not, might change his PERCEPTION.

Apparently it WASN'T OBVIOUS, thus the reason why he had to "Explain" his names a few times over. Again, he was thought of being the hottest battlecat to grace the mic at that time.

If he was THOUGHT to be the "Ladies' MC", then his name would have needed no explanation. That's simplistic at best.



But he was not KNOWN for those "soft love songs". He was KNOWN for choppin' nucca's heads off, and having a punchline that would eventually destroy your career.

It seems like you want to make this guy the Luther Vandross of Hip Hop.....

Wrong on SOOOO many levels.



We all know that was just to show the "different" styles he could display. But again, it was NOT his MAIN forte'.




Sounds like backpeddling to me^^^^....

But check it..



^^^That RIGHT THERE proves what I'm saying. If you LEFT OFF ALL THE LOVE SONGS, it's obvious that you were more interested in his BATTLE and ALPHA MALE Raps, than his "Ladies'" side....

Don't you think A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE FELT THE SAME WAY? Again, it's the PERCEPTION he put out. Why leave off all the "Love Songs"?

Would you leave off the "Love Songs" Luther would put out, vs. the "Dance Songs" that happened to be on the album? NO, you'd most likely put the songs on cassette that grab your attention more, and which define the artist the MOST.



LOL! But that's ALL that matters.

That's like Michael Jordan playing golf. Yeah he can probably do it, and probably do it pretty WELL, and there was a lot of HOOPLA about it....but guess what?

HE'S KNOW FOR DUNKIN' ON CATS!!!! That's it. That's all anybody CARES about.




No, mine is CORRECT,


Most likely the MAJORITY of people who have followed LL from the beginning.

You know, those MILLIONS of fans??



Nobody is forgetting ANYTHING, but you're giving that a WAYYYY BIGGER slice of his career, than what actually defines him.



But again, you're talking about what may FACTUALLY exist, vs. what the World's PERCEPTION of him is....



Your FACTS are outpaced by the PERCEPTION of what it really is. Even if you came up with a hardfast defining rule as to how LL is a "LADIES'S MC", it still is challenged by the MILLIONS of cats who would say he was one the of BEST BATTLE MC's to ever grace a mic.




Here's where you must be breaking down. You obviously DO CARE enough to explain your feelings in such intimate detail. It's cool tho, I know I can be overbearing with the FACTS.



So now you concede....and you agree with the rest of us now?



And that's EXACTLY what he DID, so he could keep his name out there!!!!

We're both arguing that I'm right....lol.



I like how you became a witness for the prosecution....

Thanks!!!

/The Court Rules in Favor of DJJOHNNYM

Case Closed.

Lol Jonny you're argument is terrible. Unless you have some rare LL Cool J demo mixtapes or some obscure interview from word up magasine where he is this super thugged out battle rapper you haven't got a leg to stand on.

You say that the perception of him was that he was a battle cat. I'm pretty sure that the ''perception'' you're talking about pertains only to young males at the time who just wanted to hear boasty battle rhymes. To the many women out at the time I'm sure they had a different ''perception'' of what LL was to them. Meaning when you take away all the bullshit at the end of the day he was, like he is now, a well rounded mc who is doing exactly the same now what he did back in 1984. The ''perceptions'' argument is seriously flawed.

You wouldn't stand up in court as a drug dealer and say ''I know I got caught and I know you warned me before your honour but my perception of the matter is that I'm not doing anything illegal''. Lol. Facts talk B.

Dude, HOW OLD ARE YOU AGAIN?

You can't be serious.

I LIVED the LL entrance into the game, knew what it felt like to BUY I Need A Beat, and be the first on my block to play it on HIGH SCHOOL RADIO.

I know what it was like for him to drop those GEMS when he DID.

I know what it was like to be on Edge, like the rest of the NY Tri State to know he was comin' for that new kid on the block, or Kool Moe Dee as the stuff was going down.

All you have are the "stories", but no reality.

Stop playin.

I think that the tag battle rapper is used because he sounded angry and hype on the mic back in the day but he did have some good battles with Kool Moe Dee, Ice-T, Hammer (!!) and then later Canibus. I cant be bothered to read the posts of the 2 guys arguing cause they are too looooooong so Ill give my 2 cents worth. The reason I think that people said LL sold out (which, for the record, I disagree with) is that even though he had love songs on his LP's straight off the bat, he at least balanced it out with some hard rhymes delivered like he had some fire in his belly. Now fast forward to later in his career and its a different story. His last few LP's have sucked big time and he has made some awfully corny tracks in the past 5 or more years, and the rare attempts that he makes to still cut it lyrically he has failed...basically, he has fell off and thats that. I dont believe he sold out in the traditional sense (B.E.P) but he just matured as he got older, how is he gonna spit that fire from his hungry MC days when he is eating caviar haha..and with that, we have the transition from well rounded MC who is battle ready to put the fucking mic down, your songs are corny and you can no longer cut it lyrically but you have done enough earlier in your career to be classed a great LL we now have around.

@ Jonny - Lol I'm not as old as you lets put it that way.

Jokes aside you're kind of missing the point here. You saying LL sold out is like saying BIG sold out or Nas sold out because they all have audiences that appreciate them for different things. My ''perception'' of BIG is Unbelieveable. I'm sure plenty of women's ''perception'' of BIG is One More Chance or something similar. The reality is that he was both of those tunes and more. Exactly the same concept can be applied to LL.

Now the ''Sell Out'' tag. I throw that word round pretty freely in my everyday life but have never ever considered using it with regards to LL. The guy had LOVE SONGS from HIS FIRST ALBUM. Not 2nd not 3rd but from his FIRST. You and your mates perception is unimportant to THE FACTS which are his albums are pretty much teh same formula each and every time.

And my age is unimportant. I have Google and iTunes. I can see and hear for myself what his first album sounds like.

I knew it...

You were born in the 90's or something...

You wouldn't understand....but I like your "gumption".

Lol 78. if you must know. Just. Lol.

they jinglin baby
-go head babyy

No, what was obvious was what he INTENDED to portray with the name 'Ladies Love'. What others thought of him (however important) was not the point of fact. The point is WHAT HE THOUGHT he was doing with his name. What was HE intending with the name? What was HE trying to express? Who was HE making himself out to be? What was the persona HE was putting out there?

Please do not come again with 'but people thought...' I brought the fact out to make the point about WHAT HE INTENDED with the name Ladies Love. Its my point to make, quit trying to change it in order to argue against it (if you can resist).



I am trying to be as precise as I can be. I counted out 6 to 8 love songs on his first four LPs. Thats about 10% of his records were love songs. A couple of those were made singles and one of those singles charted highest on the charts. Not sure how much more precise I can be.

I never said ALL he did was soft love songs like Luther - If I am trying to make him out like that, then you are trying to make him out as The Sambo of the rap game by saying he "sold out".



And again, I never said it was his "main forte" or anything of the sort. He had different styles from DAY ONE, he did not suddenly flip his styles.



Im sure that you would like to make it out to be. He was a battle MC, but he also made love songs and dance records as do MAAAANYYYYY MC.



You act as if by leaving those songs off the tape they were magically ERASED OUT OF EXISTENCE!!

I never said I liked those fucking love songs and I never. ALL I have been saying is that they were there FROM DAY ONE.


djkoolakiem.com
Because those songs sucked. That medley was a stroll down bad memory lane goddamn. I aint like non of his love songs till 2002 'Luv U Better'. Thats why I am not a big fan of his.

But A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE DID NOT FEEL THE SAME WAY, mostly females, plenty of people were fans BECAUSE of those love songs.



So What??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????



Where did I say its all that matters???? Never said any such thing.
ALL I have been saying is that he dropped love songs from DAY ONE. wtf?



SO???

Analogy: IF MJ always played some gulf since he started in the NBA. Then you come along and call him a "sell out" because some people started liking his golf game. The funny part is when asked what year you think he 'sold out' MJ didnt even play any fucking golf.



Not if you think 14 Shots is full of love songs.
LOL



I promise you the MAJORITY of people do not think 14 Shots was full of love songs.



I actually counted out the number of songs, and noted which ones were singles.

BTW, his first single to reach no. 1 was "I Need Love" - R&B charts no less.

not that it really maters since all I was pointing out was he did love songs from DAY ONE.

but, once again -get your facts right son



DUH- maybe because I am talking about reality.



You are talking about two things that are not mutually exclusive. He can be seen as battle MC AND STILL make some love songs. Making several love songs per LP does not magically disqualify him from being considered a top battle MC. That would be like saying MJ couldnt ball because he played a little golf.

not to mention once again that LLs first no. 1 single was "I Need Love" R&B charts.


which again - does not matter because the ONLY point I am making is that he made love songs from DAY ONE.




LOL HAAAHAAAAAA

WHAT FACTS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

literally - what facts?



what are you smoking? When did I ever say he was not a battle MC?
pointing out that he made some love songs is not like saying he was not a battle MC.





Yes, according to YOU, he 'sold out' by making all kinds of love songs on '14 Shot to the Dome' (you claim the title was misleading). Yet, its completely the opposite - he had 0 love songs on that LP and was actually trying to make a hardcore comeback (and went a little overboard if you ask me)



Maybe in Johnny Land where nothing makes any sense and hazy perception counts as fact.

I love it how you are just going to keep ignoring the evidence djkoolakiem.com go ahead snip the link off again - makes me smile every time

once again the Actual Facts:

1) James Todd Smith came out the gate with the name Ladies Love Cool J.
2) His first #1 hit was "I Need Love" R&B charts, second LP.
3) He had 6 to 8 "soft love songs" on his first four albums.
4) Each of his albums had at least one love song, dance songs and battle songs.
5) The Only LP without any love songs: 14 Shots To The Dome (title was not misleading)

djkoolakiem.com
medley of early love songs + records from 14 Shots

I consider Back Seat a soft love song off of 14 shots.

Also...stand by your man...but I like both..Im not too hardcore to listen to some smooth stuff now and again lol

So you were BORN the year I started DJ'ing.....

The Game aint even got a mention wtf

Not even in the top 50 rappers of all time.

And here we go AGAIN. No matter what YOU may think or HELL even what HE may have INTENDED on being, the fact is that he was recognized as a BATTLE MC from the door.

Simple as that.



Nobody called him a Sambo, because there is GREAT respect for that man, but he DID Sell Out to his hardcore Battle MC fans...



But you are trying to get the world to believe, hey he was a LADIES' MC from the door.



Not disputing that, but he was a BATTLE MC from the DOOR.



I'm simply saying that YOU YOURSELF demonstrated the exact same thing that MILLIONS of FANS across the world were doing....

Listening to his BATTLE JOINTS!!!!



But why were you listening to them in the FIRST PLACE? They wasn't for you...lol...



I told you, I didn't pay a damn bit of attention to 14 shots, so how could you say I SAID it's FULL of love songs?

Why do you want me to listen to that mess so bad?

It's not going to happen....lol.



Again, YOU keep bringing up this 14 Shots mess, I said I had NO COMMENT on that joint because I never bought it. YOU keep playing it over and over....lol.



Here's where the nail is driven into the coffin.

The BATTLE JOINTS weren't MEANT for the big charts! They were for the SKREETS!

You even bringing up Billboard Stats only underscores my argument that he SOLD OUT. He liked the numbers when he figured out he had a decent following in High Heels, so he rang in the DOUGH.

I ain't mad at him, but it IS WHAT IT IS.



Point proven again! ^^^^^

I love this.

+ Go JOHNNY Go--quick story , member every one thought he sold out when he made going back to cali? I was battling a DJ and got my ass handed to me when he pulled out that record "going back to cali......I don't think so", LL was ahead of his time, didn't sell out media sold him and a lot of Rappers out. Don't mention no names if they aint got any classics!

Lol Jonny you're super missing the point here. YOUR PERCEPTION DOESN'T MEAN SHIT!!!! If you perceived that he was a green martian hell bent on taking over the world it wouldn't matter because he isn't and never said he was.

Why do you keep pointing that out? Ive never disagreed and have continually said the same thing. He was a battle MC, he made battle records, he battled other MCs live on stage, and written on wax. HE WAS A BATTLE MC - how many more times do you want me to say it before you stop acting like you are refuting something?

I never said that he wasnt.

Everytime I say he made love songs you act as if you are refuting that by saying he was a battle MC. Both points are true, they are not mutually exclusive, they are not in opposition.



Can you agree that whatever else he was doing (Battling) that he did also intend to reach ladies with love songs beginning with his first album.

Or are you for the tenth or whatever time act as if you are refuting that fact by saying "He was a BATTLE MC" ?






And nobody called him Luther





You can call it what you want but the fact of the mater is actually that I am trying to get you to agree to these facts:

1) James Todd Smith came out the gate with the name Ladies Love Cool J.
2) His first #1 hit was "I Need Love" R&B charts, second LP.
3) He had 6 to 8 "soft love songs" on his first four albums.
4) Each of his albums had at least one love song, dance songs and battle songs.
5) The Only LP without any love songs: 14 Shots To The Dome (title was not misleading)



Which is not disputed.
Everytime I say 'he was a Battle MC (who also made love songs)' you act like you are refuting what I am saying with 'he was a BATTLE MC' which is what I just fucking said.

But will you agree that he also made love songs from day ONE?? or are you just going to pretend to be disagreeing with me by saying 'nope he was a BATTLE MC'???

My guess is that you are just going to point out yet again that he was a BATTLE MC, which I never disagreed with in the first place.

'



As if I ever claimed not to be listening to his BATTLE JOINTS - I was spinning his battle joints (and his dance records) at the party.



I wasnt listening - I just said I left them off my tapes. I heard them at chics houses or on the radio. So what?




YOU made your school bell list of tracks pointing out exactly where he went soft according to YOU:



And before that you said he Sold Out:



That is pretty much all I could get out of you backing up your assertions.


Your tactic here is simple: say as little as possible about your position, keeping it vague - that way it can hardly be examined. hell then straight up accuse your opponent of dwelling on it. deny it was even your position.

tactics instead of substance






this is where you said he went soft

If this was in person I would be cuing up 14 Shots - and you would be shutting your eyes, covering your ears and singing star spangled banner or some shit





I asked where he sold out - you said











So then is this where he 'sold out' - "I Need Love"???




Just to be clear (as if) you are saying that he sold out when he dropped this single?





djkoolakiem.com
....and once again johnny runs and hides from any evidence. if any true facts enter his construct it would disintegrate before his eyes

PERCEPTION IS ALL THAT MATTERS. If you're walking around the town with a SKI MASK ON, and it happens to be DARK, and you happen to scare some little OLD LADY, and she calls the COPS....

Guess what? Jake is stopping you and asking you some questions!

Why? Because her PERCEPTION of you is ALL that matters!

Stop playin!

the old lady cries rape
go straight to jail
no evidence - no alibi - no dna - no psyche evaluation
no trial - nothing

the only thing that matters is HER PERCEPTION

(only in johnny land)

I didn't say that dude would GO TO JAIL, I said they'd be asking some QUESTIONS!

Your consistant bringing up of him making "Love Songs" is what your "Leverage" (however weak) is for saying he "Didn't Chage Up".

The public's PERCEPTION was that he was a Battle MC, and not a Mr. Lova Lova MC.

All you have to do is agree to that, and we're done!

Let me use a better example...one that you might be able to follow with ease...

Kane.

He came out RIPPIN' MC's apart (Like LL).

Nobody can dispute this....

We all know he's one of the best BATTLE RAPPERS of ALL TIME.

But, he TOO catered to the Ladies..... CORRECT?

And I can bet you all your vinyl, that he's MORE PERCEIVED TO BE A LADIES' MAN MC than LL was....

Did he sell out? NO, because from the DOOR he was perceived to be a BATTLE RAPPER AND catered to the LADIES on a much more precise scale....

He included Ladies on his album covers, and LOTS of ladies in his videos....

Take a minute to digest that....

I'll be waiting.

Lol @ Jonny

So if I hadn't done anything wrong and was stopped and questioned by the polive because of some woman's perception then the police and old lady perceived me to be something other than a law abiding citizen. Wouldn't that make their perception of the cirumstances wrong???

What has this thread turned into??

Potential for thread of the year lol.

I'm a man of color.

Happens ALL the time...

I wouldn't say THAT......but hey...

I like to contribute to the dynamic of this board....

You know what? That was pretty slick...I caught that right after I posted it...

Touche'

And that's JoHnny..BTW...

JM your wrong dude.

YOU SAW HIM AS A BATTLE RAPPER.


Ask 90% of people out there which one is softer LL or Kane. They all gonna say LL yo.


When i think back to early LL shit i think of two songs.......BAD and I Need Love.

Dude is the ladies man. Get over it, you dont see him this way doesnt mean the rest of the world doesnt as well.

Your perception is yours only, not the rest of the public as you have said 50 times.

You TOO weren't in the SKREETS when LL came out...

That "Ladie's Image" stuck with people "Of A Certain Age" and Geographic...

Those of us born and raised in the Tri State Area and able to comprehend LL when he FIRST came out know what I'm talking about...

That's cat's 38 and UP!

And nobody was talking about any SOFTNESS....you're bringing a different element into the convo.

Both LL AND KANE are beasts...

But Kane was the unequivical Ladies' Man in his day....

LL became the Ladie's Man, when he SOLD OUT, (about the same time that Kane's career died down....lol), but he wanted to keep his name out there...

For THAT, He gets my fullest respect.

I agree that he sold out, but i dont think he sold out to "become" the ladies man. I think he just stopped bein hard and only put out softer stuff, that other ladies man side was ALWAYS there. He just dropped the hard side.

LOL - so now your opinion only counts if you are from the tri-state and over 38 huh?

LOL

man that shit is funny

Can I make a law now?

ARTICLE 1 sec. 3
If your name is johnny, you dont know what the fuck you are talking about.






Im talking about a couple days later.

Are you trying to say Im not allowed to come up with my own analogy scenario?

ok, you know what, you control what your old lady does, I control what my old lady does.

I have a whole different old lady - she claims that you raped her. she is a fucking nut, thats her perspective. The police come, take you to jail.

Now - Dont you get some DNA testing? affidavit from the people who was with you a whole state away? some video footage of you a whole state away? some testimony from her state psychologist? some character witness???? None of that matters? The ONLY thing that maters is her PERSPECTIVE??? You dont even get your OWN PERSPECTIVE???

Where did this old lady get these omniscient powers of supreme perspective?



Never said he didnt change - matter of fact I said he did change - as every human being on the planet changes over time. Changing does not equal 'selling out'. People change but dont sell out.



wrong - his first number one hit was a love song, that was plenty of peoples perception of him. plenty of chics from day one loved him for his soft songs. (his NAME is LADIES LOVE)

If every single person looked at him as a battle MC, it wouldnt mater anyway.

so you know what- I will patronize you for a moment - I would like to see where this goes.

deal - I will admit that the whole planet seen him as a BATTLE MC regardless of anything else - I will let that point ride - I will not argue against it - IF you will acknowledge that these several facts are true

1) James Todd Smith came out the gate with the name Ladies Love Cool J.
2) His first #1 hit was "I Need Love" R&B charts, second LP.
3) He had 5 to 8 "soft love songs" on his first four albums.
4) Each of his albums had at least one love song.

If these facts are not true then say so, state them correctly (no opinions here).

DEAL??


I made you a fair deal so we can move on.



djkoolakiem.com

Oh yeah and 38yo is only 5 years away. Fuck im gettin old like you. :D

CMOS - you are not old enough to have an opinion the matters.
What you are saying can is disregarded.

If he wants that Good Times remix i got he betta listen.

Lol you know you done fucked up right.......

That's wrong....

DEAD WRONG....

WORD!!! Oh... my bad... I forgot we are in 2009 and on this forum. I think the proper term is...

+1

Nah just thought it was ironic - as soon as someone kinda agrees with him it dont count since since you dont fit into his rules about whos opinion counts - at least 38 from tri-state

I'm not even tryin' to be snooty about it, but I'm realizing that I'm speaking on something from a perspective that's hard to relay unless you actually grew up in that era.

It's like what people consider "Old School". Old School to me is stuff like Top Billin' Eric B for Prez, and Rapper's Delight.

For other's it's BIGGIE.

Those growing up 5 - 10 years later may APPRECIATE the music, but it may not hold the same significance to them, as someone who was there and witnessed it.

It's like someone who's never been to war, telling War stories to someone who almost got their arm blown off.

The person TELLING the story may have infinite knowledge of what happened based on what they read, or studied, but the person who was actually INVOLVED in the War could have a totally different perspective.

My "LL Experience" was from Day 1. I remember how he came out, how the crowd reacted when he did certain things, and what WE (as both a listener and a DJ) expected from him.

He delivered consistantly on that plateau....

Until that plateau didn't work anymore....

Then he SWITCHED UP, (I understand he made love songs from the door, but that wasn't what the BULK of his crowd came to see or hear). I NEVER played "I Need Love" at a party, even during the "slow joints"....(We still had Rick James and Teena Marie)...

You're saying he DIDN'T switch up, he did it the whole time....but guess what? Nobody cared who was focused on his Battle Style...

So he Effectively "Sold Out" as far as the cats listening for his Battle Joints were concerned.

Nice back track. lol. He didn't actually sell out. It was just teh effect was like he did sell out.

We PERCEIVED that he "SOLD OUT"....

Lol. I get the impression you're sat at desk somewhere in some office bored to tears thinking ''How long can I string this argument out on the forums before I have to go do some real work??''

Negative...

I was just trying' to figure out, "Why" you guys don't agree with me. I'm a very reasonable person.

In my opinion, LL never sold out. (I'm not old enough and I didn't witness it, but through my dad, I grew up on this). While kids my age were listening to Golden era, I was listening to the real Golden era 83-89. LL changed with the game. Was he suppose to be rapping like its 85 for 20 years? He always did some love songs since the first album.

He was always doing "him". He started to do a little more love song type stuff in the mid 90's but he could still bring it and he proved it when he laced up Canibus. He never came off as a "gangster" or someone who came up from selling crack or an afrocentric/political rapper throwing out big words from the dictionary. He had his own style and never really swayed from it. He just changed his style with the times.

Although, I can't forgive him for doing "Deep Blue Sea" and "Deliver us from Eva"

Thats a joke.

If you wanted to understand "Why" we don't agree with you, you would discuss or argue our different views.


Which no one disputes. Everyone has their own beliefs, there own opinions, points of view etc. etc. need it even be said?

When people perceive things to be different, when they have different points of views, or ways of seeing things sometimes perceptions can be changed through discussion or argument, presenting facts, showing logic.

If each side can present its case we might get some place. The problem is that I cant get johnny to admit to seeing and acknowledging the most simple facts - "LL had a love song on his first LP". Any reasonable person would agree "yes this is true", but not johnny "LL was a battle MC" is all you could say as if it were refuting that fact which its not.

And the only facts or supporting arguments I could get you to make ignored a whole album existed 'Mama Said Knock You Out' or is about an album you refuse to listen to so it could be discussed.

And now you want to try and draw a geographic/age sphere around you and claim you need to be in it to know what you are talking about. But Ive got a feeling that if you were outside the tri-state your sphere would be just large enough to still include johhny. Or maybe if you were from Queens you would try to tell us you have to be from Queens to know the real.

Why dont you just explain how/when he 'sold out' like I originally asked?

Why cant you just admit to the simple facts I am putting out?

How bout do that instead of try to argue all this crap, that no one is even disputing.

Everyone agrees that people have PERSPECTIVES, keep it moving.
Everyone agrees he was known for battling, keep it moving.

and once again why not listen to the medley?
djkoolakiem.com
for real, what are you afraid of, changing your PERSPECTIVE?

...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

{Damn it!... He's using the Chewbacca defense!}

Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a DJ defending a Battle Rapper, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, [approaches and softens] does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit!

The defense rests.

For the record..I'm 43 and grew up in Brooklyn NY when LL hit the streets. So I have an opinion. Both of you are right, just agree to disagree already. There is no doubt that he can be the kind of rapper that both of you are going back and forth about. LL and his people figured out it was smart to ease his rap image to make it gain more appeal across a wider audience. So if you want to consider him being a sell out for extending his brand and creating longevity in his career...so be it. I see it as GREAT business sense. This opened up movies and TV and made him a GLOBAL name. How many rappers would love to be in LL's shoes?

Too often we guys get caught up in this being hard shit. Rappers got to be hard, DJ's gotta scratch crazy all friggin night. Remember, hip hop is for the ladies too. And if he is making shit that the ladies will get on the dance floor to, I'm wit it. Cuz I don't wanna dance with none you dirty hairy ass dudes.

Perfect..lol...we should end the LL fued on this note...well said.

But WE HAVE, and you STILL don't agree with me....



Okay..........


That's like me saying, I've given you all the evidence, why don't you believe me?

Me listening to anything is NOT going to change my opinion. I didn't buy the album in the 1st place because it didn't impress me, how is listening to DJ Akiem of it going to change things?

No haps...

I OBJECT.

This has nothing to do with that Good Times Remix, so we have to strick this from the record.

[/Objection Substained]

Like I said, he SOLD OUT to get those opportunities, and when I was younger, I didn't understand him abandoning the BattleGame like that..

As I grew older, and still saw him still relevant in the public eye, it finally made sense as to what he did...

That's why I say He SOLD OUT, but I'm NOT mad at that...

He caked out, made some movies, TV series, and is still chillin' today...

I just want to say the Ultimate sell outs in music is the Black Eye'd Peas... they used to be so hip hop

I second that.

I second that.

I forgot about 3-6 Mafia as well.... they went from tear the club up to shake my

And Will Smith got the first "Best Rapper" Grammy.....

Did Will sell out?
Or did Rap sell out?

You being serious? How did Will Smith sell out?

DJ Val-BKNY11203 be careful Johnny might make a rule where you have to be under 39 to know what the deal is.

But this is what I would take exception to


But is that really 'selling out'? Is extending your brand actually 'selling out'? If that were the case - doesnt every one sell out? 25 years after high school if you havnt expanded your appeal you are pretty much a looser right? Any of us. We all expand our appeal and we are not all 'sale outs' because we do.

He had love songs on his first albums, his first #1 hit was a love song - he has been making love songs since day one. If he started making love songs half way into his career I would agree he sold out, but thats not the case. He got that wider appeal (more then a battle mc) right out the gate. Did he expand upon it? Sure but it was there from day one.






But you havnt presented a case. The best I can tell you think he sold out and went soft at 14 Shots. And Ive asked you plenty of other questions about your position - no answer. And I can hardly get you to acknowledge various points Ive been bringing up. you aint trying to hear what Im saying - nice tactic, but.....


More like you saying, I've given you all the evidence, why wont you even look at it?

I am willing to listen to anything you have to say, look at any evidence you want to present.



Its not a medley of 14 Shots.

And there is a serious disconnect here. You have said that 14 Shots/ Pink Cookies is where he went soft. Im sure that generally we agree about what 'soft' means. So how is it that I think that 14 Shots is one of his hardest LPs? It makes perfect sense that (for whatever the reasons) you refusing to listen to the LP is the cause of this disconnect.

I say 14 Shots is maybe his hardest (not best) - you say it is when he went all soft - but you wont listen to it. Excuse me, but isnt that the definition of ignorance?

some selections from LLs 13th LP
(swear he is talking directly to johnny)

Artist: LL Cool J
Album: Exit 13
Song: It's Time for War

[Verse 1]
You said I was finished
And Father Time was the blame
You disrespected my legacy
And threw dirt on my name
Told DJs he's over
He ain't spittin' the same
What he says is irrelevant
Hip-Hop culture has changed
When I walk in the room
Young boys look at me strange
As if I am a relic
From some long forgotten game
It makes my blood boil
Turns my eyes to flames
I built an empire
They tried to kick me out in the rain
So I called on an inner power
It's hard to explain
It's like a holy spirit
Utilizing Hip-Hop slang
I'm beyond the gold grills
And logos on chains
You see I changed rap forever
I elevated the game
Launched the greatest label
In the history of rap
And for 24 years
I carried it on my back
I've always shined brighter
When I'm under attack
I might be down for a moment
But I always come back


Artist: LL Cool J
Album: Exit 13
Song: You Better Watch Me

[LL]
Oh, y'all wanna go to the nineties?
y'all wanna go retro?
that's what we doin?
oh that's one of my specialties

[LL]
Let's get it poppin
They like this boy rotten
I'm like I better pick ? then pick cotton
And sometimes gotta see cats to blow
I was blessed with that 20/20 vision fa sho
See its 20 mil a year 20 years in a row
First 20 mil came when i was 20 years old
I average right around 20% on my dough
Fast farward 20 years then compare my flow
Difference is i own mine and you still owe
Slackin in your mackin cant save a hoe
Spekulatin at the bar over mohetoe
Like I betchya fall off, oh no he won't
So and so spit better, oh no he don't
Under 20 ask 50 if you feelin to go
Over 30 ask Rakim i ain't no joke
I'm dirty his jaws drop off wicked and went

[LL]
Still bangin both, still hangin
Look like a - thank got its still rainin
I'm light on my feet, you can't judge me by the weigh-in
I'ts hard to grasp some of the shit i be sayin
It flys over your head like a second string is
You can't comprehend me
You couldnt place a decimal on the paper im makin
Fly man cant appreciate on castles creation
No wonder y'all keep hatin
Is L really ? young boy's debatin'
You play johnny ? i'll keep on cakin'
You can't compare me to them line for line
I'm beyond that I represent ? of time
Classic my style can't be defined
I'll be relavent forever, get it through your mind
Just wotch me


Artist: LL Cool J f/ Grandmaster Caz
Album: Exit 13
Song: This is Ring Tone M...

[LL Cool J]
My bars are like a bullet, blow your head right off
Hate on the trigger, pull it, give your mouth a night off
Give your sound man a c-note to cut your mic off
The promoters need me, nigga, you just a write-off
After that, hit the dress room, turn the lights off
Score on the fourth broad, let her break my pipe off
I used the word 'off' seven times in a rhyme
You dumb enough to think I got a limited mind
But before you start tweaking, critiquing, pressing rewind
Einstein understand, that your third eye's blind
You lack creativity, that's why you don't sign
They calling me a genius, it's about time
I'm like the tattoos on your mama's behind
I bounce up and down, and at the end I'mma sign
And I will humiliate anybody that want it
I'm back on stop, it hurts little homey, don't it?

[Chorus]

[LL Cool J]
It's obvious these clowns don't know who I am
Most who didn't get the message, nigga, check the spam
Get your facts right, take your dick out your hand
No homo, but you probably on the low-low, damn
They call Uncle L, I'm from the north side of Queens
Now you looking at me, like what does that mean
It means I crush you and every coward in between
For sounding like girls with them sweet sixteens
And I don't give a fuck about who's old or young
From what I hear, the graveyard got room for everyone
Test Big Ellie, come and get your head sprung
Which coffin you want, the blue or the red one?
I ain't gang banging, that ain't the muthafuckin' point
The point is, I spark these niggas like dust joints
The point is you gon' pay me what you owe me plus points
Listen to the sound of revenge, it's my voice

[Chorus]

[LL Cool J]
Run around talking bout I'm twice ya age
But I was rich at 17, you got some shit to explain
Rap game's like a movie, niggas playing the role
But your poker game's too weak, you're forced to fold
All this hating and debating shit, made me cold
Ready to blast, separate ya body from your soul
Conniving ass cowards get dropped in a hole
These niggas is shook like Pinky's ass on the pole
I'm the bridge over troubled water, pay my toll
I'm the rules to the game, you obey my code
I'm the center of the bomb, I'm the part that explodes
You are not hip hop, nigga, go write for Vogue
You are not a king nor prince, you just a toad
You ain't a G, you a hoe, you sweeter than Rocky Road
Battle anybody, who want it? Let me know
I just had another birthday, nigga, more dough