We will have mixtape back before they address the drifting

Ha ha 😅 I hope not.

I hear that the Rane Twelves drift as well.

Another strangeness I have seen is that after a period of drifting it appears to correct itself and stays in sync or beatmatched as it should. Say 10/15 songs in.

Another point I forgot to list is that using Timecode signal on USB, there is no drift, not ideal as buttons don’t work in DVS/Timecode mode. Defeats the purpose of the integration if that’s what we have to use.

I can confirm this. I have tried the Twelves a bunch of times & the drift is noticeable. A friend of mine also returned his Twelves due to pitch drift & random stops.

In case the Devs need my computer specs to narrow down the issue:

mid 2012 MBP 2.6 i7 quad core 16GB RAM
10.14.6 1TB Samsung Evo 860 SSD (internal)
All music & vids on an external Samsung T5 2TB SSD
SDJ Pro 2.3.2

I confirm 12 have drift, tested on virtual dj to see if there was the same problem there, I can tell you that this does not happen.

So what everyone is saying is Serato DJ Pro sucks...least we wouldn’t all be lying.

never said that Serato sucks, we have all reported this, if it is a software bug it is right that it should be highlighted, as the 12 up to version 2.1.2 suffered from the jump when touching the plate for pitchband, then corrected, we have reported this new issue. Here nobody is saying that Serato is not good and virtual dj yes, I simply confirmed that on other software this does not happen. In another post those who opened the help tickets confirmed that Serato knows about the problem is that they will solve it in a future update. I think this forum serves to report problems and not to discriminate against software.

That’s pretty bad. I see videos and stuff online of many people cutting on the twelves. Guess they are not bothered by the drifting.

I tested both decks again yesterday, I played music from my phone and beatmatched each player (standalone).

It stayed beatmatched.

Definitely a Serato issue

Please Serato fix this for everyone!!

Has anyone from Serato responded to these concerns ?

I think they will fix, the problem is that most do not see the problem because they make very fast mixes, especially freestyle DJs, for those like me who mixes tech House is more likely to notice the problem, especially when the song is launched or with the using a single 12, momentarily I went back to 2.1.2 despite the problem of jumping after a while that I didn't touch the disc, but I mapped Serato's internal pitch band keys to avoid the problem.

My correspondence

Nov 13, 11:22 NZDT

Hi there,

Yes, our software engineers are aware of this issue and are working on a fix. I can't reveal any information about future potential release dates however.

We haven't been able to reproduce drift as dramatic as you showed; it would be really helpful if you could make another video(s) showing the state it's in now.

It would also be great to find out about the beta firmware you mentioned - how/where was this obtained?

Kind Regards,
Jon
Customer Support


Nov 20, 15:51 NZDT

Hi there,

Thanks for your patience.

We are currently working on some better code that should fix this issue - hopefully this will make it into a future release soon.

Did you have any further questions or issues to discuss, or shall we close the ticket?

Kind Regards,
Jon
Customer Support

I def' can reproduce this issue too !

I miss those days when Serato guyz were very active on the forum....

I guess they are very busy on Serato Studio...

I sent them almost a dozen videos.

Denon DJ has acknowledged the issue as well and they are waiting for a fix from Serato DJ.

^ This. Their main concentration should be their DJ software...no one uses Serato studio live at gigs.

Yep, my Rane 12 drifts as well....

Please Serato fix this!

I feel tempted to take this issue to their Facebook page, but I will give it till next week, if there is no official feedback here. I suppose one will get quicker response on their socials.

Miss the days of active engagement by knowledgeable support staff on the forums.

Why wait, blast them on all platforms,

But realistically they don't know how to fix it and I have no faith in the current development and management team who's priorities are to release broken software to meet agreed times with hardware manufactures ,

The jerky waveforms are all you need to know about the talent and skill of the current development team

^ He’s right. I don’t have much faith in SDJ development. It still is not as stable as SSL was. All the bitching I did about SDJ in the past remains true it’s still not good enough. Just hoping the Phase integration will improve the overall performance. I’m ok with jittery waveforms and freezing while scrolling/searching its been like that since before SDJ Pro anyway. I’m quite surprised how SDJ even got an award for their software cause it’s nothing to be proud of.

Still haven't had a crash in 7+ years now.

I can't even with most of your posts anymore.. at least Sparky makes me chuckle with some of the sarcastic crap he says.

You’re right I haven’t had a crash either except maybe once but that does not mean that the GUI and overall interface shouldn’t be improved. We are basically saying “we’re ok with the jittery response and unpredictable library issues” when in all actuality they should be fixing it. SDJ 3.0 is coming up fast it will be a shame if nothing changed regarding stability. There’s just no excuse. Don’t like my opinion well it’s the truth...

I installed Windows with Bootcamp to update a firmware of a product, I wanted to install Serato for tests with 72 and 12, it seems to me that there is no drift problem in Windows. I also noticed that it also runs very well graphically, waveform on the Windows as smooth as Mac OS. if someone has Windows, he can confirm that the dritf is not present or is less. it would be interesting for those with Denon 5000 m

I tested on a Dell XPS Windows 10 and it drifts as well 👨🏿‍🚒

My Rane twelve works good now. But I don't use sync and pitch n time ... The first time I activate serato effects -> latency ... Second time I not notice something.

At the end it's a shame that still after 2 years there are still some problems. Serato need idd to fix this faster for the Denon and Rane. If the 6000M is good in stand alone, then I switch

*my best ever - non turntable - experience ... Technics SLDZ with serato ... ))

Best of luck.

The 5000s are really good in standalone, whereas engine prime is serviceable but I feel in 2 or 3 major updates (or a rewrite) it will be beyond just serviceable.

+1! The Denon DJ SC3900s were a close second, though.

Sold my Rane Twelves because of drifting bugs.. For over a year and a half I waited for fix then new bugs would cause new problems and what not and temp fixes, I got tired of it all - there now gone and glad of it.

Rane, Denon (InMusic) might suck they might not, or maybe it is serato that sucks but either way inMusic hardware and serato clearly have problems.

The good ship serato is sinking ..

I have zero faith anymore as it seems the likes of serato, Rane, Denon (inMusic) are happy to release bugs and charge unlucky customers for the privilege of beta testing.

This looks like a similar problem to what I'm facing. I'm new to Serato (or any digital vinyl) but started mixing in the early 90s.

In the last few weeks I got a DVS setup with two 1210s and a Numark Scratch mixer. Loving the setup but when I use Serato in DVS relative mode with the sync option the tracks don't stay in sync, in fact it's easier not to use it at all and just beat match.

I'd assumed Sync would sync the tracks automatically (obviously dependant on the beatgrid being bang on) - is this correct or am I missing something?

Hi,
That’s actually very good news ! You have to mix !

In order to use sync, the only way, is to constantly spam the button in order to keep things synced..
So it’s not discreet and looks dumb.

Cheers 🍻

Not really the same. The SC5000M and Rane Twelve digital units and are controlling Serato in HID mode, whereas DVS (analogue turntable with control vinyl) still depends on the speed of rotation, pitch, wow n flutter etc



If memory serves me well in Traktor, sync works with turntables irrespective of pitch position. I could be wrong though.

Not sure same obtains with Serato. I haven’t tried using sync with regular turntables.

If you use sync and don’t move the pitch fader, does it not stay locked in ?

Yes this thread is for drifting that is caused by the midi signal not working correctly from a motorized controller / accessory such as the rane twelve and sc5000m’s.

without synq Rane Twelve works perfect with me

That’s great news! Some people have different issues. Like lately my sc5000m’s have been pretty good and only notice a very slight drift every now and then. Some people have a completely diff experience where the tracks drift apart very fast

I waited over a year for serato to fix a drift bug on my Rane twelves' only for a new bug to cause drifting a few months later.

I got rid of them in the end and after other poor experiences with (InMusic - Denon) hardware and Serato I won't be buying anything new from them any time soon.

This constant trend of releasing hardware / software with bugs and expecting customers to pay for the privilege of beta testing is disgusting - some might find it acceptable but I don't and as long as others accept it the likes of (InMusic - Rane/Denon) and serato will continue to do it ..

This issue has comes from SDJ lastest versions not inMusic. The sc5000m works perfectly in standalone mode and the Numark V7 had no issues with ITCH and previous SDJ versions

Yes I am aware of that and agree it is serato at fault for the most part.

It doesn’t drift using USB Timecode as well. So it’s definitely the HID integration with Serato.

I heard they have changed something in the motor of the 6000M .

I’ve got a funny feeling regrading them finding a fix before the 6000M drops

Delayed till late May early June now sc6000/M.

If memory serves me well in Traktor, sync works with turntables irrespective of pitch position. I could be wrong though.

Not sure same obtains with Serato. I haven’t tried using sync with regular turntables.

If you use sync and don’t move the pitch fader, does it not stay locked in ?

Managed to sort it out - swapped to use Smart Sync rather than Simple Sync and now keeps aligned. Thanks for the input and apologies for dumping this in the wrong thread ;)

No problem.

Just to confirm Smart sync with DVS (TT + Timecode) keeps things locked together right?

I will test it out this weekend.

2.3.4 Released

"Fixed an issue where the Denon DJ SC5000/SC5000M library column sort indicator could disappear.

Improved Motorized Platter accuracy reducing potential audio artefacts"



Not sure if that fixes the drifting, but i will try it out and report back

Yes let us know. Anyone having drifting issues please update and comment back here to see if the latest update has fixed the issue.

Hi, nope not fixing the drifting for me.

Cheers.

On 12, it seems to be going well for me, I have not noticed drift for the moment, I wait to hear my brother who has two 5000m to see if he has solved the problem.

I tested it last night and earlier today on a pair of SC5000M.

There wasn’t any noticeable drift like I was experiencing before.

The tracks stayed in Sync for extended periods.

Maybe they fixed it. Strange they didn’t list it as a fix in the release notes

What’s so funny is I thought the “Rane 12” doesn’t drift cause it’s not an analog t-table...survey says that’s false. Better off just using a regular controller. Motorized devices will always drift if I’m correct

I can only speak for the SC5000M, they don't drift in standalone!

Activate sync and the tracks stick like glue over night

So the drift is purely related to the Serato implementation.

Twelve works fine.

For you maybe, but I like many others still found problems with it drifting. Short scratch sessions its great but anything that required prolonged sync it failed.

I am no scratch dj. Techno, house... Long mixing works perfect with me. But i not use synq. I am not against it, but to laizy to set beat grids and bla bla.

Same. I just don’t have the time to beatgrid every track I play. In the vinyl days we used what’s called “our ears” 🤣

I meant decks staying in sync together without drift not the sync button ffs lol.

Anyway its clear motorized inmusic hardware and serato have issues that are on going for some. And those who are effected I feel for because I saw many threads and posts from many members having problems that have been on going since launch.

And after owning them myself for 18 months I gave up and moved on to a more reliable setup.

Hi all,

My name is Kotisi and I am one of the software team leads at Serato, and in particular this “drifting” issue is one I have spent time on this year. First of all apologies for not replying sooner. Please note that we have actively been looking into this issue for several months now, and the final solution is not a simple one - else we would have implemented something already.

Below I will summarise some points that will hopefully answer some comments and questions that I’ve read across different threads. When I talk about platters, I mean the motorized platters SC5000M and Rane 12.

1. When it comes to controlling the motorized platter speed, Serato can only tell the hardware what pitch setting to play at. For example, if the pitch range is +-8%, and pitch is set to 1.5%, Serato sends a message to the platter “play at 1.5%”. Then it is up to the motorized platter itself to control the platter speed to that pitch setting / motor speed. If the platter plays slightly faster or slower, that is because of the internal motor control on the platter has not been calibrated exactly right.
2. One question is: why is the SC5000M able to control motor speed better in standalone mode vs Serato mode? The reason is because in standalone mode, the Denon Engine software is also controlling the motor speed (rather than just the internal motor control that’s used when in Serato mode). Denon Engine has the ability to control the motor speed directly and forms part of the feedback loop, which allows better control of the platter. Serato does not currently have access to control the motor in the same way that Engine does - see point 1, whereby SDJ can only set the pitch to what the user has set the pitch slider to. We’re looking into Serato trying to emulate what Engine does - but it is not a simple change, and we are not sure that we have the necessary info and controls to do it.
3. When it comes to the Rane 12, one question is: “why can Virtual DJ keep a Rane 12 playing at the right speed, but Serato drifts?” The reason is because during normal song play (i.e. when not scratching) Virtual DJ is ignoring the actual speed of the platter and just playing the song at the speed it’s supposed to play it. The advantage of this method is that a platter can appear to be playing at the right speed, so you can appear to keep songs in sync. A disadvantage of this VDJ method is that you get sticker slip (i.e. if you play a song for a bit and then manually rewind it back, it won’t come back to exactly the same spot, which can affect things like beat juggling). Another disadvantage is that the platter is less responsive to nudging (for this technique to work, there is a speed fluctuation range that is ignored, which means if you lightly push or lightly slow down the platter, it won’t be detected and the song plays as if the platter wasn’t touched). So Serato is representing the real world behaviour of the platter.
4. For Serato, since this is a physical motorized platter, we want the song play to represent what the platter is actually doing. The best solution for SDJ is to speed up or slow down the motor if the internal motor control is not exact enough. We have investigated trying to control the motor speed using the limited methods available, and although some things seem to improve and it looks promising, other things get worse and make the user experience bad by introducing another problem i.e. we don’t want to improve one problem and just introduce another noticeable problem that leads to more negative feedback. For example, we might get better platter response over a long period of time, but slower worse response to nudging.
5. In the last Serato 2.3.4 release, the following was in the release notes: “Improved Motorized Platter accuracy reducing potential audio artefacts”. This fixed a bug that affected short term accuracy, but we don’t think it would have a noticeable impact on drift over a longer period of time e.g. 10 seconds. I did see a comment on this thread that it had fixed the drift, but we can’t conclusively say that is due to this fix
6. Since it is the platter that controls motor speed, an individual platter will drift by the same amount, whether it’s in MIDI mode or DVS mode. We have tested this in-house e.g. by playing a SC5000M in MIDI mode (motorized platter mode), and in DVS mode by outputting a sine tone signal - and in both cases, the song plays at the same speed with the same error for a given pitch setting. For example, if pitch is set to 1.5%, in MIDI mode it might play at 1.48%, and DVS mode would also play at 1.48%.

It is obvious that we need to change something to satisfy our customers, the tricky part is getting a solution that will satisfy our external and internal customers. For example, one solution may be great for a DJ who does a lot of long mixes, but it might be bad for a turntablist that does a lot of beat juggling and scratching. Too many options for a user can also lead to confusion. So I will keep reading your comments and continue to answer your questions and keep you updated when I can. Cheers

Hi, thank you for this great feedback.
Don’t worry, for my tastes the 12 is OK like it is. It is very responsive and the drift is almost nullified.
Keep up the good work.
Cheers.

So we are goosed?

Thanks for the detailed write up.


PS
Some paragraph line spacing next time.

THANK YOU for acknowledging the issue & providing such a detailed explanation! This is why I TRUST & RESPECT Serato!!

Yes, we're working with Denon to explore this, and check if it's achievable.

How was the Numark V7 handled with Serato ITCH ? I guess the motor technology is quite the same but there were no issues in ITCH.
How is the accuracy compared to Denon Hybrid mode (sc3900) because for me, DVS is now robust and very accurate, there is no drifting issue.

Anyway, thank you very much for having technical discussion with us, every tech djs will appreciate :-)

V7 and itch was before my time, so I can't comment. As for the SC3900, I am not familiar with this product. For example it might have a very accurate motor control, similar to the SC5000M in standalone mode - I don't actually know though.

Once we're out of the lock down due to the virus, we might be able to check these devices out if available. Cheers

I use the 3900s as my main gigging decks and I can say the sticker drift is pretty terrible on it. Likewise slow platter movements don’t translate all that well.

Drift doesn’t seem to be an issue for me tho, but I rarely use sync and that seems to be the point of contention.

I agree, the 3900 in hybrid mode (i remember when i used it) -> extreme sticker drift. ... I liked the SL DZ with serato ...

I still like the 3900s, I just don't try to juggle on them too much (not that I'm great at it).

I also like it. The size, the weight ... 3700 I like to. I love spinning platters. For now (for me and my style) the Rane Twelve is perfect.

Probably same.

If I load a DVS Timecode signal to the 5000M there is no drift.

I didn’t actually use it that much to test for sticker drift, I was just troubleshooting comparing Standalone vs HID vs Timecode.

I also tested all above scenarios on both windows and macos, also tested with different OS versions. Super extensive (I need to be on payroll 🤪)

The first step in solving this issue is recognizing the drift which I’m glad is now black and white. 🙏🏾

Hopefully you guys find a way to sort this soon.

I can confirm again that I don’t have the drastic drift (ie first 4 bars it’s already off) not sure what reduced it (I’m running a private beta OS on the 5000m in addition to the new Serato)

Interesting... if I can help somehow...

Funny you said that since it's related.

Serato needs to get the platter vector itself (not the vinyl which it gets of course) that's what Kotisi calls "internal" since the Denon has access to that value in it's internal mode.

With these two values you can adjust wow&flutter deviations (and even adjust other things when you "sync" the unit) but the problems arises when you have more than one unit because if "it's wrong calibrated" (or just sightly different one to other) then drift emerges even with the same song of course. So that makes a must send those values from one unit to the other which Denon could do via it's ethernet "LINK" (which btw comes from the old CDX) but Serato can't if Denon makes it available at usb side (and I'm not sure how it will affect bandwith performance over usb vs ethernet but it's a shame if Serato can't and maybe develop the ethernet compatibility will be a possible solution. In fact Pioneer has that and Denon use that for VideoSync with other softwares AFAIK).

Then you need to find a solution for that drift giving that encoders data control to Serato instead internally (cpu) denon so SDJ can send the get all the variables and send the proper changes to the units to keep them the most sync that they can. Something impossible without sync and digitalization of the turntables (it could be possible do something similar with timecode/noise map but it will require calibration or compromises as Kotisi pointed since scratching needs fast data sampling (of these encoders) meanwhile long mixes need stabiliy (from the output data to them or you will get more fluttering...)

and how is this related with mixtape?

Well since mixtape was about recording performance more than just a 2ch mix and it gets some fader/xfader automation... you can go the extra mile (after 8 years maybe it's time folks...) and also record the vinyl automation (aka ttm) now people can understand this is not tricky to avoid scratching (people could use in that way but it's just the top of the iceberg of posibilites. People lacks in imagination and laziness but also has extra fear to technology) since you can edit wrong scratches (to the infinite if you want or subtle nuances if that broke you ego) but that vector signaling from the platter is one of these encoders (the same in twelve, in V7, in CDX, in Scs.1d, in my midi modded CDX which Serato closed the posts 9 years ago...) so fix that and you can fix everything.

youtu.be

Watchwww.youtube.com


I know I sound like kool aid kid but I also know it's possible and maybe techie heads could understand it. In fact there is some clues that the technology is out there because if you look at the Pioneer Serato scratch preseting you will notice the scratch adapts to any sound and any tempo... so it's a ttm behind that.

Watchwww.youtube.com

If you put that TTM recorder into Flip recorder you will have something better than Mixtape for Live and also you can add that recorder to Serato Studio to make it the true Bridge (that they fail back in the day) and maybe a bit near to what Ms. Pinky maxforlive was or what you can achieve with plugins like Scratch Track (by stagecraft software).


I give this free (as usual) but there are lots of improvements that could be done but I will love to share with someone who wants to really listen. Kotisi you weren't on the old Serato/Itch as I understood so maybe you weren't aware around all of this and will be interested in some help? I'm not the only who knows or the knowledge keeper but I expend some years in this field and I will love to contribute seriously... Is Serato interested this time?

Hi all,

Sorry for the long delay. There's a new SDJ public beta version 2.5.0 available here serato.com.

Can you please try this version out and let me know if it makes a difference to the drift on your SC5000M's or Rane 12's?

Please note:

- There's a known issue whereby the pitch can get stuck and the deck will always play slower than it should be and won't correct itself (until you close and restart SDJ). This will be fixed in the next beta version

Any feedback would be much appreciated.

Cheers,
Kotisi

Hi everyone on this thread,

It would be much appreciated if you can try out the 2.5.0 beta version of SDJ and let me know how it performs, as you guys were some of the the most vocal regarding the drift issues. See link to the build in previous post.

Cheers,
Kotisi

Testing a gazillion things all at once my man!

Phase testing phase right now (Pun intended)

All good DJ Marv the Maverick, we did the Phase implementation too, so hopefully you'll give some feedback on that as well (in a separate thread :))

I have tested it. Looks much improved.

Previously even though i had a drift - after a few songs there will be no more drift. Almost like the system has to warm up and get familiar with each other. But the drift was a lot back then.

Testing tonight with 2.5Beta, the initial drift is very minimal with the 5000M.

I will try a cold test in a hours.


Now that we have you here ...please please and please don't forget the 6000M will love to get that supported, its already a year since announced!

PS

Above was in relation to the 5000M

Hello Mr. @Kotisi,

Please pay attention to what I am going to explain to you.

Until the purchase of my 2 Denon SC5000M units, I used serato together with my Mixars Quattro and DVS.

When there was no other software that had integrated these units with "Official?" support, it could be said that Serato was the only one. But in what way? A very sloppy way. Like a midi controller and horrible screen presentation.

Since Virtual DJ made a TOTAL integration of its software with the Denon SDK (this can be called official native support) and without driftingproblems, I have already forgotten about Serato.

Therefore, do you really think that you will have many Denon SC5000M users, who are interested on this and going to offer to test your new beta, which only fixes the drifting problems?

Please ask Denon for the Developer Toolkit and take the time to properly develop the display cloning of the Serato interface on the screen of these units.

I would have offered to test it. But honestly, I don't want to waste time on the humiliating and nefarious support that Serato has given to Denon SC5000M Users.

In addition, there have been users of the new SC6000M units asking them the same for months, after supporting the X1800 and x1850 prime mixers, and Serato do not take them seriously or pay attention to them.

Please definitely think about it at once.

Thanks.

Hey djinet,

You're entitled to your opinion.

Anyone else that can help out, much appreciated. Cheers

Kotisi

I appreciate the 5000m support but its easy to feel some type of way when one looks at how Virtual DJ did theirs.

I did a months trial for VDJ and they did a damn good job (my opinion of course) but i'm ride or die with Serato (except you pull a rekordbox sub only move)

Perhaps the reason for the delay in adding support for the 6000 could be a redesigning of the implementation, to take full advantage of the hardware.

If that level of implementation cannot be achieved due to technical limitations, that is fine as well, I will still use it in its current form on the Denon DJ SC6000M.

I wait eagerly

BACK TO THE DRIFT

On Cold start up this morning, I noticed just a smidge of drift but it corrected itself within a few seconds.

Good job with the fix!

Thanks DJ Marv,

You're one of the people I wanted to give it a full test as I know it was a big issue for you, and we haven't been able to do any external user testing until this beta.

As per usual we can't comment on products currently not supported in a release like the SC6000M, but will pass on your thoughts to our team.

Cheers,
Kotisi

No problem. I hope the guys on the twelve thread are seeing improvement as well.


Can I tempt you with a pint of Guinness?

Quote:
As per usual we can't comment on products currently not supported in a release like the SC6000M,

Can I tempt you with a pint of Guinness?

The Guinness worked then.

🍺😬

FYI

Watchwww.youtube.com

Man like Kotisi

😬😬😬

Guinness for you at your local

This issue appears to be back.

I'm on 2.5.6 and its quite bad with the drift. My usual workaround of playing a few tracks to settle things is not working. Sync is not holding the tracks together as well.

Tested on both MacOS 11.5.1 and Windows 10

Rolled back to 2.5.5 on Mac and the drift is lesser.





I am also experience beat jumps / skipping outta the blue. I could be mixing in a track and next thing the incoming track jumps forward or backward a few beats wrecking the mix.

I have submitted a help-report for this

Apologies not sure why my quotes are not working

@DJ Marv - I experienced the same issue on 2.5.5, but using Phase on HID mode. I did a rollback to 2.5.1 and all is working fine.

Drift or skipping?

Both - there was excessive drift when holding a mix during a transition. Also, sometimes the audio would skip - although this didnt happen every often. The worse thing that happened to me is that my left deck once started playing backwards very slowly and Phase would not respond. I've had zero issues since going back to 2.5.1

Hope you submitted a report as well.