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Pairing PAs with subs - 10"s vs 12"s

Rizzm 7:19 PM - 1 February, 2017
I'll try to make this quick. I'm a beginner making an entry level system for basement parties and small events. I just picked up some used Behringer VQ1800Ds (18", 500w). I can get a solid deal on either JBL EON610s or EON612s to use as tops.

I can't decide whether I'd want 10s or 12s. I know the 12s will sound fuller if I just want to use them alone without hauling the subs around, but as far as I know, the 10s will have a better dispersion and also better "speed" and clarity.

Can anyone sell me on either one of the pair? Thanks.
577er 10:02 PM - 1 February, 2017
Um the "speed" / clarity thing is nonsense, both of these speakers are crappy so the 12 is the way to go. You'll need the extra volume even in little basement parties, dispersion be dammed.
DJ Reflex 11:11 PM - 1 February, 2017
I think the "speed" from the 10" speaker is referring to Transient Response. While this is true to some extent (small speakers will move back and forth faster than larger ones given the same magnet size and voice coil : there will also be less flexing of cone material), I doubt that any one's ears will notice a difference.

I do agree with 577er about dispersion too. You'll only need wider dispersion from your horns in wider rooms and open areas. If you're doing parties in smaller basements, the speakers will probably be aimed directly at the audience anyway.
Rizzm 12:16 AM - 2 February, 2017
Despite how "crappy" either of them are, these are my options at the moment. So then the 12s would be the better option for volume's sake? As a further example of the reasoning, if volume is the determining factor here, then 15s would be a better match with entry level 18" subs?

I've read a few things about smaller mid range drivers being more able to "cut through"other frequencies. I just want decent sound quality in PAs that I can find for under $800 a pair. Value for money is the most important factor.
577er 2:43 AM - 2 February, 2017
The quality of the speaker & components will make more of a difference than cone size as far as clarity goes. A good rule of thumb with cheap cheap cheap speakers is go with the 15" if you can afford it, even when used with a sub and always use the high-pass filter with a sub!

Better speakers in that price range:

Turbosound iX15
Turbosound Milan M12
Electro-Voice ZLX-15P
Yamaha DBR12

Any of these series and you'd be much happier.
QSC K
Yamaha DXR
EV EKX
PreSonus AIR
Hanginon 1:00 PM - 2 February, 2017
You need to make a fundamental decision right from the start - use sub(s) all the time, or not.
I run a pair of 10" tops over a pair of 15" subs - I use the subs ALL the time. It's got good bass and it's got (what you call ) good "clarity".

Moving up to 12" or 15" will start to negatively impact the midrange, UNLESS you start to spend big dollars. A dedicated midrange driver (i.e. three way speaker) works, but you now have a weight/box size penalty. Utilizing a big compression driver with high power handling, so it can have a lower crossover point, also works, but is big $$$ like the high end RCF stuff.

No free lunch. You can't cheat the "laws of physics". The best compromise (if you are thinking of not using subs all the time) for moderately priced speakers is probably the 12" two-way. Stay away from the dreaded low/moderately priced 15" two-way. Gives new meaning to the term "jack of all trades, MASTER of nothing"!
577er 2:23 PM - 2 February, 2017
I would have to disagree about the 15"s in the cheap market, volume is volume a 15" will move more air... no one has ever asked a low priced speaker to be masterful at anything lol.
Hanginon 2:58 PM - 2 February, 2017
Quote:
I would have to disagree about the 15"s in the cheap market, volume is volume a 15" will move more air... no one has ever asked a low priced speaker to be masterful at anything lol.

I understand, but here's what happens with that. Person buys a pair of cheap 15" two-ways and puts them on tripods, 5 feet in the air. You've heard the term "put sub next to the wall or 8' from the wall"? That's to prevent a bass cancellation in the 70 to 80 hz area. Guess what, your 15" two-way that's 5 feet from the floor has that. It's even worse - another boundary, the ceiling, is also in that 5 foot range - you now have a huge suck-out in the 70 to 80 HZ range that NO AMOUNT of EQ can fix. So what do they do, they buy a sub anyway. Now they have good bass again but with the crap midrange of a cheap 15" two-way. So they now try to sell them and get a decent pair of 10" or 12" tops, which by the way also look better sitting over a pair of subs than big tops on just tripods. I say "try to sell them" because the market is flooded with 15" two-ways (I wonder why?).

Why go through all that pain?
577er 6:16 PM - 2 February, 2017
Quote:
Quote:
I would have to disagree about the 15"s in the cheap market, volume is volume a 15" will move more air... no one has ever asked a low priced speaker to be masterful at anything lol.

I understand, but here's what happens with that. Person buys a pair of cheap 15" two-ways and puts them on tripods, 5 feet in the air. You've heard the term "put sub next to the wall or 8' from the wall"? That's to prevent a bass cancellation in the 70 to 80 hz area. Guess what, your 15" two-way that's 5 feet from the floor has that. It's even worse - another boundary, the ceiling, is also in that 5 foot range - you now have a huge suck-out in the 70 to 80 HZ range that NO AMOUNT of EQ can fix. So what do they do, they buy a sub anyway. Now they have good bass again but with the crap midrange of a cheap 15" two-way. So they now try to sell them and get a decent pair of 10" or 12" tops, which by the way also look better sitting over a pair of subs than big tops on just tripods. I say "try to sell them" because the market is flooded with 15" two-ways (I wonder why?).

Why go through all that pain?


I totally agree that 15"s on anything smaller than dual 18" subs look silly but I think your math is off regarding frequency cancilation from standing waves. 5 feet from the floor "only" would affect the 225hz region and every room is so wildly different that you can't simply say driver size X are prone to cancellations. I've noticed bass cancellation more with miss place subs than 15"s at head height.
577er 6:21 PM - 2 February, 2017
And yes the half wave lengths would be affected but again all rooms and surfaces are so different that standing waves are not really the issue most of the time.
Hanginon 7:34 PM - 2 February, 2017
Quote:

I totally agree that 15"s on anything smaller than dual 18" subs look silly but I think your math is off regarding frequency cancilation from standing waves. 5 feet from the floor "only" would affect the 225hz region and every room is so wildly different that you can't simply say driver size X are prone to cancellations. I've noticed bass cancellation more with miss place subs than 15"s at head height.


Cancellation occurs when the driver is 1/4 wavelength from a boundary.
How do you get 225 HZ??
577er 3:16 AM - 3 February, 2017
Sorry that was unclear, I was referring to the frequency length not the 1/4 length, brain fart. Still haven't noticed cancellations from 15's at head height & ive used many 8, 10, 12, 15 & multi driver boxes. As well, any speaker would experience the same theoretical cancellations at any given frequency, the 15s just cover more frequencies.
Hanginon 3:41 AM - 3 February, 2017
That's cool.

Look, I'm just trying to play the Devil's Advocate. It seems like it's a "Right of Passage" for new DJ's to buy 15" two-ways, a purchase many come to regret. If @Rizzm wants to do that, fine, just go into it fully educated and eyes wide open.
577er 5:41 PM - 3 February, 2017
Can't argue with that.
DJ Reflex 11:15 PM - 3 February, 2017
Quote:
It seems like it's a "Right of Passage" for new DJ's to buy 15" two-ways, a purchase many come to regret.


Happened to me 22 years ago. I hear ya!
mister_wilson 4:19 AM - 7 February, 2017
Back to Rizzms questions...go with the cheapest of the JBL EONs if that is your only choice. Reason being, you should be saving up for a some new speakers.

I personally think the QSC K series is the best sounding bang for the buck and if you are going to get the subs and use subs all the time, the K10s are all you need up top. However, you might go with the K12s since you will probably get tired of lugging around a sub to do events where you just need to quickly set up, play, and then get packed up and out.
dj_soo 6:46 AM - 7 February, 2017
I'd get the Yamaha dxrs over the qsc k-series
Asu 2:55 AM - 12 August, 2017
Quote:
I'd get the Yamaha dxrs over the qsc k-series


Get the New QSC K10.2 which are much louder and cleaner up top....a problem the old model was notorious for....or some refurb PRX710 or the new PRX812...guaranteed fun nights for me with the PRX's...no limit lights.
JDforKing 3:47 PM - 12 August, 2017
Quote:
Quote:
I'd get the Yamaha dxrs over the qsc k-series


Get the New QSC K10.2 which are much louder and cleaner up top....a problem the old model was notorious for....or some refurb PRX710 or the new PRX812...guaranteed fun nights for me with the PRX's...no limit lights.



Have you ever heard the Yamaha dxr series?
RIDDIMNBLUES 4:36 PM - 12 August, 2017
Quote:
I'd get the Yamaha dxrs over the qsc k-series


Totally agree the DXR sounds better than the both thr old and new qsc models plus 7 year warranty
Asu 6:32 PM - 14 August, 2017
DXR sounds good.but If you're playing loud EDM,TOP 40 you def need DSR,K.2 series or PRX700 or 800 series...DXR doesn't reaches it's limits faster than the others.
JDforKing 8:32 PM - 14 August, 2017
Quote:
DXR sounds good.but If you're playing loud EDM,TOP 40 you def need DSR,K.2 series or PRX700 or 800 series...DXR doesn't reaches it's limits faster than the others.


How often do you use DXRs
RIDDIMNBLUES 12:08 AM - 17 August, 2017
Quote:
DXR sounds good.but If you're playing loud EDM,TOP 40 you def need DSR,K.2 series or PRX700 or 800 series...DXR doesn't reaches it's limits faster than the others.


i use to own the DXR boxes and they are plenty loud for EDM,TOP 40...the srx series in more better....