Sorry for any typo!s I hate productive text

Also why can I not see any edit links on serato forum so that you can edit a post.?

Oh, the irony!

:p

traktor is definitely a bit sweeter on the sound. that can be a good thing or bad for some.

Love using searo but searto sound quality very disappointed may even consider going back to traktor.

Such a shame its so good to use, but another DJ has just kicked in with traktor and his audio 6 sound card and it sounds so much better. It just sounds like proper club system when he's playing .

Sweet at the top end and deep at the bottom.

Just can't workout why searto has not made the software sound the best.

So disappointed

:-(

After spending a lot of money on the sx2 and hoping searto DJ was the way forward, I have to say I am totally shocked at the poor muddy muffled sound quality.

I am not the only one noticing this, there are posts after posts on google slating the sound quality of serato DJ!

What is going on serato... This is supposed to be the best DJ software in the world, yet it sounds like cr*p. muddy and muffled and that's with lossless music!

Is this ever going to be fixed or is this as good as it gets, I'm surprised pioneer would even want to put there name to such poor quality sound!

After being use to the sound quality of cdj2000s and even the N.I. Audio 6 sound card. Searto doesn't even come close.

Really not sure what way to go now, love using serato but hate the sound quality, its like listing to 128 bit mp3s crap!!!

There are many posts on the poor quality of serato DJ but would love to hear any feed back as I'm so disappointed, to me sound quality is more important than any feature, once the sound quality is spot and I mean spot on then start adding all the toys

Look forward to any feed back oh would also like to hear back from the powers to be at serato too. Maybe they can explain why serato sounds so so so bad.

Mine sounds perfectly fine maybe you're doing something wrong ?

Have you compared it to a cdj 2000, or something equally as good! Because it's not the same! and traktor sounds much better! May be its acceptable to you buts its not to me! Theres so much room for improvement! simple

But then a lot DJs are happy with the sound of mp3s so everyone's expectation of sound quality varies, I hate mp3 sound quality compared to wav, and I hate the sound quality of serato DJ

There not a lot you can do wrong! I have crown macrotech 5000 amp driving 4 jbl srx 715 speakers. I have the latest MacBook Pro 16gigs i7 2.8ghz, ssd and a LaCie 2big 8tb thunderbolt external drive.

Most of my music is lossless, I have not cut any corners anywhere everything simply connects together,

I know a good sound system when I hear it !!!

I only bought the sx2 for the smaller gigs with a small DJ area, I was also considering the sz to get as close as I can to my cdj's 2000s but not sure now.

I'm only 2 days in to using serato at a live gig and I need to do more testing to find out if its the controller or serato, that has the sound issues, from what I am reading from others its serato DJ, there saying its much more inferior than other version of serato when it comes to sound quality!

I'm sure there will be lots of other DJs with sx controllers saying they sound ok, but its all relative to your knowledge, equipment, and expectation of a good quality sound system.

Sadly some djs have substandard sound systems, and music collection of poor quality mp3s. So everyone's idea of good quality sound is different !!

Serato DJ does not have a sweet sounding top end, or an thumping clean bottom end, Its muddy and dull sounding, almost scratchy sounding. The mids don't even sound great. Something is wrong in ether the drivers or serato somewhere.

Or maybe something's just wrong with your system.

No dont think anything is wrong with my system. Traktor sounds great, cdj2000 sound great, cdj 400 sound great, Winamp and other music players on my pc sounds great

All test are with the same music files,

The more I have spent the day reading about serato DJ sound quality, it very clear there are issues with the lack of hi if sound quality in serato.

Lots of people are experiencing the same lack of detail and muddy sound,

It's such a shame, serato was a joy to use and enjoyed everything about the sx2 controller, I would even go as far as to say as good as using my CDJ players.

Serato was stable, very responsive, and my lossless music loaded so quick as I was using thunderbolt external hard drive.

So all in all serato is brilliant, just know sound quality could be so much better!!

But I don't expect all other DJs to be looking for perfection, when a sound system is good I'm happy and I know serato could sound better.

Try the same tracks with another software and use the Pioneer DDJ SX2 for both.
You will hear the Pioneer sounds good.
It's Serato DJ that sucks.

period

What kind of computer are you using? I'm using a cheap Pioneer SB2 with my Mac and it sounds pretty damn awesome. Maybe it's your cables? Shitty XLR or master cables?

when on outdoor event i use my ddjsx2 and the sound is of the hook
perfect .check your settings and cables

I'm using a McBook Pro 2011 13" with OS 10.9.5 and I use very good XLR cables. I have tested it on my Focal Alpha 65 with VOX,iTunes,VLC vs Serato and on BOTH I use the Pioneer DDJ SX2 as sound card. To make sure the if the problem is the DAC or the software.

I don't know if it's Serato, Pioneer or both, but when I use the SX2 only as DAC the sound is great, when I use it thru Serato the sound is not so good. I make sure inside Serato everything is in the green...not even peaks to the yellow. I use WAV and 320 kb/s MP3 and the Sound on Serato is different.

A big problem is also the volume. Thru Serato I can't get that loud. With a music Player such as VOX I can get 3-4 times louder without any compression of the sound.

You are totally correct. Part of the problem is Serato DJ and part of the problem is the mid-grade circuitry in the SX2.

Serato DJ still has sound quality issues. It's muddy compared to SSL, Traktor w/ proper external audio interfaces (audio 6, 8, etc) or pure CDJ output. I've tested this at length.

To see how much of it is SDJ and how much it's the SX2, hook up a CDJ to your SX2 in "thru" mode, and compare that with using the SX2 just as a standalone mixer vs. using it with SDJ.

The SX2 is not pro gear. It's fine for people that don't really give a ish or aren't picky. But I'm so fed up with people saying "SDJ or my such and such budget or mid-range controller sounds great!" No it doesn't, you just don't know any better or haven't bothered to do your research.

SZ or NS7 series controllers are the only ones that have very little compromise in SQ imo. I use an SX2 almost weekly for small gigs, but it always leaves me wishing for something better. I run its outputs through an A&H Zed10 before sending to the mains. Helps a little and allows for post-controller sound tuning.

Yes I was playin with a CDJ thru the SX2 and also with CDJ straight. With A Rane Mixer for SSL n time code vinyl. The SX1 was back then THE controller of Pioneer and I hoped the SX2 is gonna sound good. The NS7 would be dope but far too big for me to carry to gigs. Also the SZ. Probably I will just go to CDJs. I really don't get why nobody has the ears to hear that. Pioneer is not even answering. Serato at least trying the best to find out. I must say they gave me a good support so far. Probably it's the mixer and fader section of the SX2 and Serato. When I use the SX2 as soundcloud for just listening to music via VOX iTunes n others the sound is good. Really Disappointing.

Sounds very good.

www.gclub-casino.com

<QUOTE>You are totally correct. Part of the problem is Serato DJ and part of the problem is the mid-grade circuitry in the SX2.

Serato DJ still has sound quality issues. It's muddy compared to SSL, Traktor w/ proper external audio interfaces (audio 6, 8, etc) or pure CDJ output. I've tested this at length.

To see how much of it is SDJ and how much it's the SX2, hook up a CDJ to your SX2 in "thru" mode, and compare that with using the SX2 just as a standalone mixer vs. using it with SDJ.<QUOTE>


Raised this issue 18 months ago after purchasing my sx2, no one seemed to understand or take onboard the difference in quality on both sx2 and serato, I even had a indepth argument with pdidy who too could not hear the lack of quality!

Nice to know there are knowledgeable people who can tell the difference in quality and who also have high end quality equipment to identify the serato/sx2 sound quality defects

samsistema: I agree. The size/weight of SZ/NS7 lines defeats the purpose of a controller. I'd gladly pay those prices for that level of quality in a SX or NS6.

Johnny H: Def. nice to know I'm not the only one, haha! Let me know if there is anything I can ever do to help on this topic. I've tested with a TON of higher-end stuff. Cheers.

Maybe it would help if u contact the support directly. Every Level meter from the Serato Software to the SX2 is in the green area. Not red, not yellow and the sound is definitely not comparable with even a midrange CDJ.

I also realize most people narrow days don't really know the difference since everything goes digital and they get upset if someone sees there is a problem in quality with the stuff they own themselves.

I almost thought bout gettin the NS6II but i think I can't expect better sound quality from it ??
Has someone tested it? Otherwiese there r the Denons !?
But I like the Play & Cue buttons on Pioneer. Don't knw if u would like the rubber style.

I really hope Serato will notice the difference but I Don't have so many hopes in Pioneer cause they can't change so much in my hardware anymore.

I have the Denon 8000 and 6000 mk2

Those definitely sound much better than the SX I used to own.

Serato itself does not sound as great at playing USB Rekordbox. I know this because I use Rekordbox USB for warm up and switch to Serato for peak.

CDJ 2000 Nexus and DJM 900 Nexus. The difference is day and night.

Sensible people in the latter part of this thread! If the amatures stopped saying "it sounds fine!" and more people echoed the reality, Serato might be more compelled to fix.

I don't exactly blame Serato...why should they fix something if their customers "don't view it as a problem"? Instead, it makes more business sense to spend R&D money on creating new features and revenue-generating addons. I get that. That's why it's incumbent upon us to politely but emphatically help them see that the top-end/pro side of their customer base really does see problems and uses alternatives because of it.

The problem with all this is: the top brand for Djing, in this case Pioneer with Serato, releases an expansive Dj controller. Reviews for Dj/music gear and magazines say it sounds great (I guess they only compared it to crappy controller and have neva used CDJ) The people who buy this also think it sounds great. When u buy it u think it's ok but after a while u can hear there is a problem with the sound quality. Nobody told u bout it. You try everything to change it inside the software. Get a lil better results after u adjusted the volume of thousands of tracks cuz auto gain doesn't work. U get frustrated. After hundreds of tests and realize u bought somethin for 1000 bucks what sounds like half of the price. That really sucks if ur not happy with the sound on ur own gig cause of all this disinformations.

Yup. Exactly. Trying throwing this between it and the sound system, and see if it helps in the meantime: www.allen-heath.com.

I'm surprised none of you have brought of a major point in this. The majority of your customer base who come to listen to you DJ don't give a crap of about music fidelity, especially when it's blaring over 100db. That's probably the biggest reason many DJs have not complained about the quality. Add booze to the equation which is over 90% of our gigs and well I think you get the gist. Not saying the problem does not exist but you got to put things into perspective. Realistically, this is a non-issue for many DJs who are not trying to get high end quality sound from their gear. Hell to be really honest most of the DJs I know are more concerned with bass and the sound coming from their subs then high fidelity.

Finally........ the voice of reason :)

@Andrei Matei, Johnny H ect..... what type of speakers do you own ?

Point taken, but that doesn't make it right!

In the quite of my studio where I'm always expanding my serato library, ripping my vinyl through a £500 ortofon 2m black cart to extract the best quality from my priceless vinyl collection and ripping an endless supply of CDs which all take many hours, then on top the process of tagging correctly.

How can a free media player foobar2000 sound better and I mean better through my RME studio sound card than Serato???

It's is disheartening to archive your music only to find the system you play out on degraded the quality of the tracks that are so near to your heart as a passionate DJ.

Was was always under the impression serato prided its self of being the very best DJ software, especially in the early days, oh and I do believe if a system sound sweet when DJing people warm to the floor easier and I feel much more happier DJing than throwing the next track on with it sounding just ok

95% of my collection is wav to keep the original native format, hoping that one day I will find some DJing software with the same functionality as serato but with an audio engine that produced a true sound quality to the track that is playing and one that I can be proud of listening too.

You just instinctively know when something sounds good and sadly serato has away to go with the sound engine!

It's nothing to do with the speakers! I use 4 x JBL SRX 715 and srx subs and crown macrotec 5000 amplifiers, nothing wrong with that setup!

It's all to do with the quality play back in serato, you don't even need a controller connected, just use a high end studio sound card and you can hear the difference, it's like night and day!

But then we are just going round in circles, some people get it, most don't 😩

I heard the roland DJ 808 is the "best sounding controller".

Haven't played with it yet or heard it live but the Denon 8000 and 6000 definitely sounds way way better than the SX.

Even on my KRK monitors it's night and day not to talk of the club PA.

I will agree. The SX2 is okay sounding at best.

Yes I think there are two issues with my setup, one is serato, I do think it has gotten slightly better with various releases compared to the first version of serato DJ I tried about 18 months ago, but still not true or perfect sounding to original tracks quality

And yes have always been disappointed with the digital sound card quality of the SX2, for a controller that is one down from their flagship controller sz I think it is a real poor show from pioneer.

I guess with both of these factors in play no wonder I have never been happy with the sound quality, though it is nice to know I'm not the only one who feels this. I really wish I was praising the move over from cd to computer but CDs years ago sounded much better when playing out

Alcohol allows us to get away with SOOOOOOO much lol

Alcohoö and if people notice the sound difference is another topic. But one thing is sure. The audience is gonna feel the difference. They feel if there is a cloudy, muffled kick or if there is a kick which impacts as hard and clean as hammer on the wall. And if these guys r too drunk to feel anythin. Who cares bout their oppinion. A DJ is the master of it's performance. Clearly he has not the power over the entire setup. But over his own setup and about the craft of his art. So everybody who has a pursiute for a good performance, perfection or just a nice gig will think over this topic. It's scary alot of people have never noticed and some even don't care. Dont get me wrong. I got ur point but thats not our state of mind. Im sure it could get slightly better if serato would get their sound engine fixed. And yes it sounds worse than a free to get music player with the same soundcard as DAC which I also tested in Serato. I don't understand, which every track inside serato is overclipping. A virtual deck shouldnt have auto gain if it's not workin. If i leave everythin in the green area the sound is not strong enough..hello kick? If its too loud, witout auto gain almost every track is clipping and the sound get disorted. If i find the right spot, which i think is between green and low yellow, the sound is still not ok. The SX2 is now just a big disappointment. But Serato could get better in sound too. For my last long mails to Sreato, when they asked about detailed settings, I didnt get a response yet.

dont you think at some level, using a 500$(sorry dont know the pound sign) cart on studio monitors is gonna sound different than running thru a midi controller thats only double that is gonna sound nite and day different? even when you rip you are listening to the original vinyl on a system you are comfortable on/used to hearing. Unless you are using a really high end system, it seems getting a PA to sound as fresh as your indoor system, in complete quiet, would be near impossible.

edit

No, I think you guys are missing the point. Serato for the better part operates off of the squeakiest wheel principle. That means a few audiophile DJs who are looking for superior sound will not outweigh the vast amount of DJs who are fine with the sound quality. Again no one is saying what your ears are hearing are not true (for you), but you're simply a small minority of complainers. Thus no major hurry from the devs who more than likely have a laundry list of bugs and fixes to deal with that have a higher priority assigned to them. That's not saying that the sound quality is not a concern but i guarantee you even if it was fixed, it would probably still never meet your expectations. So you have a question to ask yourself. Can you live with the sound quality not really ever meeting your standards or should you move on to something else? That's the realistic point you're missing.

or

You have every right to keep the bitching session going in this forum. That's your right as stated by Serato. But I gather this thread will eventually lose it's steam in a few weeks.

and i approve this message....:)

As I said previously we are going round in circles!, some people get it and sadly most don't

It's nothing to do with bitching, it's factual, there is a clear difference in sound quality, though I do take onboard there are no shortage of other support bugs to rectify that may have a higher priority.

This is nothing to do with audiophile qualities as I'm don't have to money in life to purchase audiophile equipment or be part of the audiophile community.

Foobar 2000 free media player, Sony Sound forge editing software, Izotope plugins are far from audiophile quality. But all reveal a pleasing quality that is true to the original CD quality of the track.

This initial post some 18 months ago was simply an attempt to hi-lite some true defects in serato, and in the long run hopefully make it a better product for everyone.

I don't think it is too much to expect serato to sound true to the original recording, after all serato SSL did!

It's clear most people on this forum are happy to settle for 2nd best and that's fine, as I said previously, we are going round in circles and wasting precious time.

Yes! one has to live with it, what as shame you can't be proud of it too.

enough said.....

Good point...


Fixed... ;-)

I total agree.
sound quality to me is most important

ever thought that maybe serato is really really flat as far as eq levels in the sound engine and others at sound processing at some level with eq or code to 'sweeten' so to say the sound?

i know nothing of coding but i do know that whether its food or sound ppl use devices to make things more attactive. in food its sugar or sugar substitutes, in audio its eq'ing, sonic maximizers, compression/limiting, etc. Maybe you are hearing a sweetened sound from other sources or maybe serato just sucks.

seems like you might want to do more scientific testing if you are just going to keep bringing up the same points. You're basically just trump'ing this thing and saying 'I'm right and you're wrong because a few ppl agree with me and everyone else is wrong''

if you could come up with some graphs or frequency detail it might help your argument. if you hate it, just move on to another platform with better sound. or use a preamp/mixing board to enhance your controllers sound.

I have no idea about the DDJ-SX since I do not use controllers...

As for Serato, I was fairly appalled by SDJ's sound quality out of the box. As soon as anything is pitched off-0%, it sounded metallic & rather off to me.
When it was on special a few months ago, I did grab pitch&time to see if it makes a difference... and yes, it did and for me, SDJ with Pitch&Time is back up to the sound quality of SSL which in turn is on par with Traktor, and I actually wondered why people aren't complaining more regularly about this and how Serato got away with degrading their sound quality and making, what was part of their success, now a to-be-paid-for-add-on...

But hey, when people are running into the reds anyway (as many DJs regularly do...), the sound degradation of that is worse than the low quality of pitched audio from SDJ, and many do not hear that either...

c.

That's what u want. I sweet (warm) sound and not a metallic (even if it's neutral) sound. We Play Music in Clubs, on events and other locations and NOT in a Music Studio.

I have a what I call studio at home and I need neutral sound for mastering my beats and NOT for DJing.

I installed the Traktor Demo version and used the SX2 int. to test how big the difference is.
I'm sorry but in that point you lose biiiig time SDJ big time. Everything sounds better on Traktor. Like every genre, every track I played.

Just the layout and functions are much better for my opinion on Serato. I could get what I wish for with Traktor if everything would be working better. I don't know about Rekordbox. It doesn't sound better than Serato to me.

But in terms of Soundquality Serato has work to do.
And yes. The audience will feel and hear the difference.

I knw thats another topic now. But I will have to switch if nothing changes.

I can't even explain how much more punchy the kick is on Traktor. at some point there is almost NO kick in Serato. Where is a kick on Traktor. I mean. really??

Sorry Mr. Goodkat I do not agree with anything you have said,

1) serato does not sound flat far from it, it's more muddy sounding and less defined with the clarity of the original track recording, that is not a flat sound. It's nothing to do with eq or sweetness or sugar, it just does not reveal a true quality to the original recording, it's that simple.

2) Though I would say the same for the pioneer SX2 as well, so the blame is not solely with serato.

I have now tried through my RME studio sound card 6 different audio players with the same high quality wav file, all six sounded the same or very very similar quality, to the point that I could not tell any difference switching between them.

The track was crystal clear revealing a pleasing reproduction from the original CD play back, the lows were deep not muddy, the highs detailed crisp and clear the mid range was pronounced and alive.

Playing the same track in Serato did not produce the same outcome, so we have six media players all sounding the same as the original CD play back and serato sounding different.

I'm not trying to win any argument, the facts are staring everyone in the face, it's weather you are bothered by it, have the ability or music quality to hear it or simply happy to settle for 2nd best in life.

I'm not trumping anything! It's there in front of you ! listen... do you own tests, you will hear the difference.

I don't have the time or inclination to start doing in depth tests to win any arguments from non believers on this site, If you can't hear the difference or are happy with the audio quality it would be a total waste of time.

I believe in my ears and from quality I hear from the original CD track recording play back, then once it's ripped if I hear no difference between the CD playback and media player play back that's good enough for me. It's that simple....

Playing the same track in serato does not reveal the same quality as the original track recording. Please understand this has nothing to do with winning any arguments, bitching, trying to disrespect or knock serato as a product. They a simply true facts that are in front of all of you!

Today I was doing tests in my studio with a song which includes different types of kicks (sequences with kicks only).

I was playing the track in Serato, Traktor, Vox and I agree to what Johnny H said.
The only software which was doin color the the sound (kicks) was Serato.
It was more metallic, not that punchy and not that warm.

Vox and Traktor was quiet similar. I was regulating everything so it had the same volume and everything in the greens. I recordnized the auto gain can distroy a lot of the quality so I regulate manually.

But still Serato has issues with the sound quality. I hope Serato comes with better sound in version 2.0 which maybe could come soon.
I hope they recordnize it.

all good, im not saying its the best but why not just switch?

you've been going at this since aug 15 2015, seems like you arent getting anywhere with serato dj and wasting time.

Really there is not much choice if Im honest if I was to move over to something else!

Virtual DJ ... not an option
Mix vibes ... not an option

Tractor..... used it Before serato found it was buggy and lost faith in it, though defiantly sounded better.

Record box ..., have evaluated it but not over impressed with it, though have not DJayed with it

The reason I have not moved is I don't believe there is anything better to use as a whole product than serato, but that does not mean it's perfect on sound quality.

I'm living with slightly infere sound from serato over the quality of the rest of the product. I'm not saying it's non useable as a product either far, from it.

I think serato as a whole is a superb product, the thing I really like about it is it's simplicity. Not being bogged down by 100s buttons, menus, options etc. It's Functionally works beautifully and touch wood has always been loyal and stable.

But I wish people were all a little less defensive about contrctive criticism and embraced in trying to make serato even better with what is clearly a defect in the sound engine.

I also get it!.... It's not a high priority to Serato as in past 18 months nothing has really improved.

If they offered a payable solution to achieve what I call true normal sound from serato, that is true to the original recording, I would pay for it without even thinking about it.

Yes it upsets me every weekend when I DJ knowing the tracks are not sounding as good as the should be or revealing the true quality. Never had that emotion inside me when DJ ing with CDJ2000s

I'm not saying all DJs feel the same, it's very clear many don't or don't care or want to be negative around this topic!

I guess it's my bug bear and will have to live with it until serato addresses it or something better comes along if it ever does

Simples 😉

I received an answer from Serato support after I send a long detailed manual with pictures of the setup of my test which was requested. If you want change, take your time and contact the Serato support. Here is the answer from the Serato support team:

Hi Sam,

Thank you for sending through that requested information.

I have attempted to reproduce the sound quality issues you have described with a senior colleague of mine. As you did not wish to send through any example files, we purchased and downloaded 320kbps mp3 versions of each file. After testing the same files with three sets of studio quality headphones using the same preferences we have determined there is very little perceivable difference in sound quality between Serato DJ and other applications when gains are set to be as close to equivalent as possible.

Yes there are perceivable differences in gain between Serato DJ and other applications - this is simply due to the nature of Serato software - it is easy enough to amplify the output with using your hardware.

Serato DJ is actively used by hundreds of thousands of users in varying environments, and to be honest we rarely receive feedback about Serato DJ sound quality being inferior to other applications. Serato DJ is high-end software that is developed and tested by some of the best professionals around. All aspects of our software is regularly tested in-house to maintain a high standard of quality in all our products.

Thank you for your honest feedback and sharing the feedback of others - we do appreciate it.

Have a good day.

Regards,

David W.
Product Specialist

Interesting

I'm a little shocked serato test department were proceeding in depth audio testing of MP3 files and not wav, files but maybe that says it all.

When the pitch fader is on 0% it doesn't matter for hearing a DIFFERENCE and it's also what most Djs are using. Otherwise ur right. WAV has the better quality. But that's another story

So if serato is correct, does that mean you guys are i.ytimg.com ?

I recorded a warm up mix in Serato and exported it as an MP3 via Rekordbox to a USB stick. I often play this mix on the CDJs before starting my set on Serato using the same nexus set up. The difference between the sound is night and day despite that the mix was recorded in Serato.

I'm not here to argue too just stating the fact that Serato does not sound as good as the CDJ when playing the same file, either MP3 or lossless.

Its not a deal breaker but there is room for improvement. I don't know what the technical reasons are within the software but if something can be done it will be welcomed.

I have no reason to ditch Serato based on this, feedback is being provided to make the product better or at least on par soundwise.

Mp3 are compressed file and parts of the sound are removed so you loss the quality.
I use more flac files and wav as they are much better quality. But the down side is they use more memory space.

Simply there is a difference in serato sound quality compared to many other players period! I don't feel most DJs have the quality of tracks or hearing to hear it or even care.

As I am totally blown away that serato would even consider doing precision in depth audio diagnostics and testing with inferrier MP3 files.

How can you have any faith in the results from those tests, I'm am a little shocked by the engineers that carried out those audio tests with mp3s ?? Guess a lot has changed since the early days of serato and when they worked closely with rane and had infinanly better sound quality

It sound cold for me, you don't enjoy the songs. I am really getting bored when i do mix with Serato, but if you don't care about the sound, this software is great.

Been moved to Djay Pro, waiting to see how Serato will evolve in the future.

Traktor in term of sound is indeed way way better, but transitions are much more smooth in Serato or Djay compared to Traktor.

I think the sound quality is great I recorded almost a 2 hour set with my SB2 listen here. soundcloud.com

Did you record internally or externally ? Because the internal sound has nothing to do with the real output your have. Basses are softer and some high frequencies are higher.

Recorded through Serato DJ. The sound out of my KRK's sounded fine. What disappoints me though is I pay $100 for software and the echo out feature doesn't always work as it's supposed to it's been like this since the fx feature was first added. #justfixit

The internal recorded sound is a bit different than each controller sound but personally, i don't like both...

If some more people would contact the Serato support, they would change something I hope. Because I don't think they gonna read every comment in the forums.

To send an e-mail doesn't take more time than complaining here.
Serato is the most solid software. If it's also gonna be the best/same sounding it can stay #1.
If they don't improve the bad sound quality, they gonna lose their costumers.

It really amazing if this suppose to be a professional software, with the worst sound of all softwares I have ever tried.

if you think mp3s sound worse than wav files(which clearly you do) and they say that mp3s sound fine to them, wouldnt a wav of the same song sound even better?

so maybe thats why they went with a lossy file

If your going to do comparison testing and diagnostic wouldn't you start with the best reference ? A wav file.... seriously ?

Its a known fact the sound quality of MP3 will never be close to the quality of a wav file mp3s are compressed.

I thought the test engineers were trying to identify the defects in the serato sound engine, why would you use a sub standard reference?

I dare say you can not hear the difference between MP3 on serato or any other media players,

There is a real easy way to test this. Download some square wave files of 40hz, 100hz, 1000hz, 5000hz, and 10,000hz. DO NOT RUN THESE THROUGH YOUR SPEAKERS. Play them as you would any song through your controller, but look at the output of your controller (with EQ's defeated) with an oscilloscope ONLY. Any change in the shape of the square wave (which should literally be "square" shaped) means the sound was altered. Try it with Serato, Traktor, etc. - you will very quickly see what's going on. Serato could do this, IF they wanted to.

IMHO, Serato DJ sounds fine only if you use AutoGain, it is set to 89db, and all remaining gains are carefully controlled. However, the typical DJ using 15" two-ways on sticks and no subs has no idea what you are talking about.

Hmmm... Well it could be because MP3 is the de facto format of choice. I don't know the percentage of DJs using the MP3 format but I can safely say it's a huge percentage.

start with the lcd

why doesnt someone just make a recording of 3 -4 dvs systems and put them to a blind test?

surely its super noticeable and then you would make your point, without small percentage of ppl saying its so because i said so

MP3s only took off years ago when memory and storage was expensive. So ipods and music player could benefit from MP3

15mb vs 45mb for the same music file MP3/wav

It may be so called deafacto but that also has a lot to do with the way people download music too via the internet, again in the past it would have been impossible to have the bandwidth to transfer wav file vs mp3s

But make no mistake mp3s are lossy and there is a massive amount of data missing from the original lossless format even at 320,

But sadly we're back to majority of people in life settling for second best in sound quality, if mp3s had never been invented, there would be a lot less sub standard quality music contamination out there!

Man, you're fighting a losing battle. But I see what you are aiming for. I can tell you now it ain't gonna happen. Although I can't fault you for give it the ole' college try though. ;-)

It's really simply not fighting any battle!

Just know what's right and wrong when it comes to standards in life,

That's goes for music as well , good quality equipment and good quality music rips

It's really that simple

This is one of the few ways you can accurately test it - everyone else is just doing "seat of the pants" testing, which is woefully inaccurate.

Serato Audio Research started with a time stretching plug-in for Pro Tools, which eventually became Pitch'n Time. Frankly, the only way they could have seen if the algorithm worked correctly - just stretched time and not alter the sound - would be to have checked it with an oscilloscope using square waves - I would find it hard to believe they didn't do that.

You can do the same thing with your SX2.

The arguments about wav's, mp3's, flac's, etc., have already been settled, but continue preaching to the choir absentia if you wish.

That was just a metaphor my friend... but as the man said "[...] preaching to the choir"

Just to chime in here with my 2 cents as some people seem keen to deliberately overlook a few things here (these quotes are just examples).

The vast, vast majority of digital DJs use MP3s so of course it makes sense for Serato to test with them. Not saying they can't or shouldn't test with lossless files either, but that it also makes sense to test with lossless.

And if you're testing across platforms using the exact same file, and you're testing for differences between the platform's sound quality and not the file format, it doesn't matter as much if they''re testing with MP3s or not.

But lastly, this was in response to an individual user. Think about that for a minute. They took his concerns so seriously, they took the time and money to go and buy the very tracks that he was referring to but was unwilling to send them and then did the tests and reported back to him. I wonder how many of the other DJ software companies would be willing to do this?

I know Serato has its shortcomings (as does MP3) but y'all wonder why Serato don't respond more in the forums and when they do, I bet they often wish they hadn't. Some of y'all got no chiil.

Yes the support from Serato is one of the kindest and also the tastes I have ever seen.
That gives me faith. Sometimes they answer in a few hours. Sometimes they take their time to test.

They wanted to have the exact files I used. Same music. This being shocked bout not using losses is thought in the wrong direction but I get you.

I surely also would use ONLY lossless if it would be possible. But I play genres which is impssible to get in this formats. trust me. No way. I'm lucky if I get 320 kb/s, cause even some of this music is mastered in small shacks in the townships with crappy headphones.
Kwaito, Qhom and I'm not talkin bout the stuff you can find on Youtube. That's just the little peak of the iceberg.

I can understand for these who have the luxury the get wav files but get 320 mp3 instead, makes more sense to get losses. But for me this format maybe only exists on the PC of the artists.

I feel this is always this issue with any kind of SQ argument,
Regardless if you can prove sonic accuracy, people will say it sounds horrible.
Plus every person will still have their idea of what is 'good sound'

It's the same as none of my (nonDJ) friends understanding why we like HD25s so much....whenever my friends have tried them. They say they sound crap because they're used to overbearing bass they get from their JBLs/Beats etc.

johnny h sounds like he works for another dj software company tbh

Stop! making your own assumptions without knowing the facts! otherwise you end looking dumb.

Mr GoodKat I am a senior electronics design engineer and FPGA designer for a company who makes large industrial machines that are shipped worldwide. I design electronics and layout PCB's 10 layer deep using Altium Designer 17, I design FPGA logic using Actel Libero & Viewdraw Design Software. I program in embedded Fourth and C++.

None of this has anything to do with DJaying and or working for other DJ company! so NO I don't work for any other DJ company.

Please refrain from making comments about me until you know the correct facts, thank you.



stop making assumptions!

I'm not fighting any losing battle! as there is no battle! The only battle I have is slowing ripping my DJ collection on CD / Vinyl which I am doing in wav format and over the moon It's not a wasted effort of lower quality MP3 rips!

You don't know what I am aiming at! stop making assumptions without knowing the facts.

The only aim of this post was to hi-lite some slight audio defects in serato DJ and hopefully one day see that they have been ironed out and improved for everybody. It has also been encouraging along the way seeing other educated people seeing the same issues



again stop making assumptions ....

I'm not your friend! my friends fit on one hand and thats plenty enough as they are true! and don't make incorrect assumptions or comments without knowing the facts!

I'm not preaching to the choir, as everything I have said is factual! oh and I'm not a preacher either!

I'm not bitching about serato DJ, as previously stated think it is the best DJ software by far! but the sound engine could be improved and enhanced.



always the same usual suspects on this forum with their negativity and assumptions.

true facts.

1) I know the sound quality of serato DJ can be improved as other music players all sound the same and true to the original CD playback, Traktor, Sony Sound Forge, Foobar 2000, Izotope etc.

2) I don't like MP3s as these are not true to the original CD recording, and It does not take me any longer to rip and archive my vast DJ collection in wav. After all the ripper rips in HQ and why would I then want to degrade the rip to MP3 LQ ???

3) Yes an oscilloscope would be the very best way to analyze the source audio verses the serato DJ audio. But I would not be interested in the any square waves ? as I would not want to be seeing any square waves anywhere in either my original source recording or output from serato DJ!

This is the very last type of signal I would want going to my speakers! Square waves cause clipping and if there is any DC component of the audio signal (Square waves) it will destroy speakers when driven by high powered amplifiers.

So when analysing the signal from serato DJ, I would want to be analyzing the complex Analog audio waveform out of serato DJ which is what makes up the song you are listening to and that would then be compared to the original analog source recording waveform.

I would also use a signal generator set to various fixed frequencies across the 20hz to 20khz range and make various non complex analog signal recordings of fixed frequencies from the audio generator and again compare the source recording to what comes out of serato DJ.

Analysing the slew factor of the waveform (rate of change), the gain difference of the wave form, the frequency response and roll off of the wave forms.

On all the fixed frequency signal generator recordings you should be able to use a 2 channel oscilloscope and and have Channel A displaying the source signal generator frequency recording and Channel B showing the serato DJ output.

You would then move channel B trace over the top of channel A trace and you should then see only one trace with no difference if serato is truly outputting the same signal as the source recording.

I design daily complex digital and analog electronics and use a Keysight 3000T X-Series oscilloscope amongst other high end test equipment and there is not much I do not know about electronic design.

But I do not work for serato or any other DJ company ! lol so this is not really my job to do for serato, I would hope the designers of serato DJ would be doing the above when analysing the audio quality from serato DJ.

I only ever commented on samsistema original reply back from serato support after they tested for audio defects. the report never once mentioned about oscilloscope testing only about MP3s ?

Just because most DJs use MP3s this has nothing to do with identifying sound engine defects in serato.
why would you not want to test and compare serato DJ with a true high quality wav reference source files instead of using a lower quality sub standard MP3 source file ?

It's clear the usual suspects have been offended by some of my educated comments in the past, I have no understanding why? as everything I have ever stated is factual, real and constructive criticism only in the attempt to improve Serato DJ as a product.

We are all have one thing in common, we are DJs together and have a love of music and entertaining using serato DJ. It would be so much better and positive to be commenting and talking to each other in harmony instead of making unfactual comments and spouting negativity.

I for one think serato DJ is the best DJ software out there, but has room for improvement on the audio side that's it plain and simple, no more, no less.

Not sure if anyone else gets it, but then if you don't, I really don't care either ;-)

correct......I agree 100% with you!

100% Respect to serato support for attempting to investigate sound issues in the first place, and thats why I echo Serato is by far the best DJ software.

I can't imagine N.I. or Pioneer support offering the same service, but I may be wrong.

Just a real shame this audio testing was carried with MP3 file and not advanced signal generators and oscilloscopes ;-(

@Johnny H

Maybe you can send a message to Serato support and tell em what you wrote here bout testing sound engine of the software? If they wont change it on 1.9.7/8 or 9 Maybe they will on 2.0. I always expect a bit more if the first digit changes. And most important.. as they said. They don't get any feedback bout the sound quality. Maybe it's an isdue they never saw and only gets noticed if many enough tell the support.
Only way to reach em.

Bout Pioneer Dj. They never answer any of my questions. The company was sold anyway.
I don't know if I would put faith for help from Pioneer.

But I hve alpt of faith in Serato bout that point

@Johhny H
I'm sorry I upset you my friend. ;-)

clearly you extremely care or else you wouldnt be dragging this on for a year and a half and write novels about how much you dont care.

I just upgraded to new version 1.9.6 and noticed that it did sounded flat from previous version and i belive I was very out dated at likt 1.3 something. It sounded better in my opinion. I use the DDJ SX not sx2 so i'm thinking something was compromised to make new one better. possibly making mine obsolete.

Never the less I still like it. I'm no pro. but ya, could sound crisper.

From what I'd read somewhere a few years back, Traktor has a slightly different sound as they 'colour' it by applying a little EQ to make the tracks sound a bit brighter. In a post I once saw, a Serato employee stated that Serato DJ plays the source material 'as is' and adds no processing making it more 'true-to-life'.

I have the MCX8000, A&H Xone 43c, Twitch and a Kaoss DJ and can hear the differences with them all when I use Serato DJ.

The MCX8000 is the best along with the Xone 43c but the surprise is the £99 Kaoss DJ. For the money it's pretty sweet.
So having a few bits gear means I can try them all out for comparison as Serato DJ is the common bond they all share making the test easier.

I used to have the old SX1 and that was, in my opinion (subjectively), awful sounding. It used to grate on my ears and couldn't wait to get shot of it. The SX2 used a better sound card but still wasn't the best out there. The thing is, most people are happy with what Pioneer puts out as it's the price point they work to so can't see that changing any time soon.

I also have the Kontrol S8 and used to have an Audio 8 and can remember how it had a little more crispness to the sound. As N.I. make their own software/hardware it's different to Serato's working relationship who just makes the software. It's then down to the manufacturer to put in a good sound card.

I agree with lots of the above comment. My non-scientific, "how things sound to me on big systems I've tested on" is as follows:

CDJ standalone = excellent, 10/10.
NI Audio 8 = very good, 9/10.
SL3 w/ SSL = pretty good, 8/10.
SL3 w/ SDJ = not so good, 6/10.
SX2 w/ SDJ = barely passable, 5/10.
SR w/ SDJ = bad, 3/10.
SB w/ SDJ = junk, 1/10

What I haven't done is try the SX2 as a stand-alone mixer and compared that with a DJM900 or Xone via a hooked up CDJ and bypassing Serato DJ altogether. Anyone have both and care to test? Would maybe help isolate if its SDJ or DAC in SX2 or a bit of both. If someone has done this before, link me and then tell me to read the forums harder. ;)

to me the cdj 2000nxs are much louder but are very revealing of their sound files overall quality.


Well mixed (engineered, not dj'ed) loseless files sound great, but a lot of mp3s of varying degrees sound really harsh or just bad.

CDJs (assuming you mean pioneer) better than the SL3? that's sarcasm, right? :-P

Nope! Tested CDJ-2000nxs2 with digi out vs SL3 on large Void sound system, both with DJM900nxs2. As much as it pains me, the sound is warmer, fuller, and richer on the straight up CDJs. I realize those aren't technical terms. It's very easy to tell. Turning auto-gain off on SSL gets you a bit closer. I think the SL2/3/4 boxes sound really good, but not quite up to standalone CDJ.

there's the problem. hook them up to a good mixer and the SL3 will shine

Lol, the DJM900nxs2 is fine. Have also tried it with Xone:92 that the club has, both RCA. Still a difference.

same category hence same result. these middle class mixers kill what the sl3 has to offer over the cdjs and others.

Ok, interesting! What are you suggesting...like a Bozak or Urei or Model 1 or something? Curious!

a while ago i ran them (and others) through a rodec and guess how that turned out ... :-)

it's no secret that the popular disco mixers are not exactly audiophile material. which is fine, they're not supposed to be. but for comparisons that has to be kept in mind. a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

I guess what I'm saying, since pretty much every club around has a DJM900 of sorts (at least here in the US), and often it's all you are allowed to work with, I based my completely personal opinion comparison to that.

And to think people with DDJ-SRs and SXs are like "yo it sounds totally fine." Hahaha. I appreciate your meticulous sense of what is good, R-A-C. Got nothing but love for that. Wish more people would have higher standards like you and stop accepting some (not all) of these trash controllers as OK.

exactly

oh sure i got that and it's perfectly fine.


hehe yeah i totally agree. sometimes showing them (or better making them listen to) some alternatives helps already.

You ever listen to your system and say "dam, it sounds good today". Probably the barometric air pressure! As crazy as that is, it is far more quantifiable than the subjective sound comparisons in this thread.

You've already been given the answer - using a two channel oscilloscope, compare the square waves at different frequencies between the input and the output of the DUT (device under test) - and do not send the signal to your speakers!!

Square waves will check slew rate, rise time, frequency response - all in one shot - and is repeatable and quantifiable.

I am not suggesting that the typical 5vdc powered controller/soundcard combination sounds as good as a mixer that runs on higher voltage. I am suggesting that if you watch your gains (deliberately keeping them low in the controller), and make up for it in an outboard mixer (which a lot of DJ's already use for micrphones), it can be very good - certainly far less sonic impact than the source material (mp3's) or the typical 15" two-way speakers many DJ's use.

I know they're not software controlled but can anyone tell me how the sound quality is for the Denon SC5000 Prime compared to the latest CDJs and top-of-the-line controllers?

Played a DnB set last night on a midsize Void Soundsystem...on of the best sounding club systems in the city. I used SDJ 1.9.9 w/ club kit plugged into the DJM900nxs2 and others used CDJ-only. Big difference in the fullness, richness, and clarity of the tracks. Yes, all were 320 purchased mp3s on my side and theirs.

Last Friday, I got a chance to try BassBoss’s new DV12 tops. We tested in a small bar with a small system of two DV12s and two SSP118s. The owner of BassBoss was there and we sound checked SDJ vs. SSL. He and I and everyone else could hear a remarkably pronounced difference in the sound. The owner stated that the vocals were more “up front” and the “highs were much clearer with SSL”. He’s been in business for over 20 years and got his start in the HiFi space.

I realize this is a SX2 and SDJ thread so my latest comments are relating to SDJ only.

^ I’ve always though SSL sounds better. I think it’s mainly due to how the master output level worked as SDJ is completely different.

in favor of sdj or the standalone cdjs?

Standalone CDJs much much much better. They were 2000nxs2.

I have noticed the same too.

During warm up at a lounge that I play, I play from USB prepared in Rekordbox on the Nexus CDJ and Nexus 900. The sound is full on and just miles better than Serato.

During peak time, when I need to keep things jumping, I switch to Serato, the difference is night and day.

Even a warm-up mix I recorded in Serato sounds better when I play it on USB Rekordbox than when I play it with Serato.

Mind you I'm using Serato with the same CDJ/DJM

So why don’t you just switch to Rekordbox?

by "USB Rekordbox" you mean a thumb drive prepared with rekordbox played by a cdj?

Not happy with the sound quality of SX2 or any Pioneer mixers. Replaced with MCX8000 for mixers I only use Rane or Allen&Heath mixers going to BOSE F1 system. Still waiting for my Rane 72 😊

No I mean. I recorded a warm up set in Serato, then exported that mix through Rekordbox to USB



Just stating my own observations. I'm not planning to switch anytime soon. Me and Serato go way back 😋

If everyone kept quiet and just used the software as it is....there will be no improvement.

hehe sorry i'm not sure i follow.
you recorded from serato how: serato internal? grabbed from the djm's usb? something else?

At home, I do a prepared warm up mix with my own gear eg Roland DJ808. I export the MP3 to a USB stick via Rekordbox. I hand over a mix to some venues eg bars. Say I'm djing 10 to 2. They can pop in the mix at 9 or so.

Usually they play it via the House dj system which in this case is a CDJ/DJM nexus set up.

The mix sounds better of the USB than if i played the same recorded mix through my Serato connected to the same nexus set up.

oh yeah okay now it makes sense. in that case however it's a lil strange.

assuming the cdj is hooked up digitally, both (serato and the cdj) use the djm's soundcard. hence when playing the serato recording from the cdj the only difference to playing with serato directly would be the digitally connected cdj.
so that one, despite being connected digitally, would then have to color the sound so much that you notice a noteworthy difference.

Have you compared the sound quality when the autogain was turned off on SDJ?

1) Autogain is the devil. I use the volume and eq controls as every song is different anyway. Autogain is like using a compressor for material that is already compressed. Nothing good will come from more compression.

2) If guys are playing off CDJ is it possible they are actually using WAV file instead of 320? There is a definite sound quality difference you might not ever notice until you play on a high caliber system like you spec'd

autogain does not apply any compression.


no. as dj marv pointed out in great detail the difference he noticed happens when playing the same file.

I will try it without autogain. I forgot about autogain completely, mine is set to the lowest *facepalm*

same file.

totally agree with this I have heard the difference playing alongside djs in clubs

I used the wrong analogy comparing auto-gain to compression. I think Autogain was probably a lot more valuable when libraries were full of different bitrates. Back in those days, to me it sounded better to just turn up the mixer volume on a 192kbps file than to let autogain make that adjustment for me.

bitrates don't matter in that regard.

Yeah, bitrate and gain are totally different issues.
Turning up a low bitrate file will never help it sound the same.

I’ve heard from a few DJ’s their SX2 is always bleeding with the gains. Even auto gain hasn’t fixed it. Must be a bug with that unit?

let me ask a few questions here...so is the program doing the DAC conversion or is it the hardware (mixer)

for example pioneer says the djm900n and the ddj-SZ use the Wolfsberg DAC.... i have the 900n and the sz . and i did notice from when using the DDJ-sx2 the sound was different a bit dull.

Using the rane 62 and the djm900n .... i like the rane better

Its the hardware (SX2) wich uses inferior DACS compared to most high end audio hardware

It's all down to the DACs (Digital to Analogue Converters) and then what quality of operational Amplifiers they use along with the quality of resistors and capacitors in the analogue amplifiers on the back end of the DACs that feed the audio signals to your amplifiers and speakers.

Every type and manufacture of DACs have many different specifications, and vary in price depending on how good the spec is.

I use in my studio RME digital sound cards and interfaces that boast to have some of the very best quality DACs in the world and I wish my SX2 would sound close in quality to my RME sound card, but it doesn't come anywhere close.

Pioneer is supplying crap sounding controller, that is true!

I'm sure the SZ/SZ2 does sound much better than the sx2, but it is far too big and heavy to lug around to every venue.

What I don't understand is why Pioneer don't up there gain and start getting a bit more credibility and produce a pro quality mid sized controller (SX2 size) with pro audio for the DJs that don't want crap quality sound.

pioneer use to have a good name years ago in high quality Plasma TVs and HiFi but most of there DJ equipment is built cheap and sounds very very average is quality.

Maybe they should take a serious look and lesson from Roland and make a mid sized controller with ultra high quality components and at the same time stick an optical and SPDif out on the controller.

The crazy thing is the quality of the digital signal doesn't really differ, it's all about converting that signal back to analogue in the best way possible!

I should state when I said the digital signal doesn't really differ, I was referring to any one given audio file playing on different hardware. Obviously there are many different digital file formats and bit rates.

But in an ideal world any one given digital track should sound the same after its converted to analogue, but sadly this is not the case.

And pioneer proves this across there range of controllers!

with pioneer you are paying extra for marketing, with Rane(in the past) you were paying for it being made in america.

i think what people are forgetting is making expensive gear is expensive.

in all reality if companies were still making quality gear the SZ would probably be a mid range controller and there would be a 3-4k controlller but the days of selling to the pro and not the consumer are over.

thats why the old drum machines like an mpc3000 were $3000 in circa early 90s. It was well made with good components to last like a musical instrument was. The problem is that type of thing is for a pro that makes money and can afford the best.

now things are made to sell like toys so the company can make money. Even though spending 1000$ seems like a lot(it is to me) its extremely cheap for electronic music equipment.

there are literally guitars/efx/units/monitors that cost as much or more than that new. I mean some in ear monitors are more expensive than midrange controllers. You have to remember that when buying this stuff

Yes I agree with you,

But it would be nice if pioneer made an ultra high audio quality mid sized controller for people who want high quality audio and were willing to pay for it.

I still think pioneer prices are over inflated but they have successful filled the market that technics once owned in the clubs.

Shame there producs feel so cheap and plastic and sound very average in sound quality, at least technics turntables were a quality build and still going strong today. Can’t say this for pioneer DJ products !

Funny you mentioned the techniques 1200

I was in another forum and the fellow claimed the plx1000 sounded better than the 1200..

I sorta questioned that statement and said the needle is straight wired to the rca... and the mixers pre amp and needles which makes the sound quality....

I believe the old is wired the same like the 1200..

The fellow then claims that the 1200 is old the wires are old....? Could that be true

Possible, connection and crimps to the cart could be oxidised ???

But the sl 1210/1200 is not recognised as a audio file turntable due to wow and flutter and the tone arm. But was one of the very finest turn tables for getting over auustic feedback and the direct drive motor made is start fast and ideal for mixing djs

Can’t imagine or see why plx1000 would sound better than a technics unless there are problems with head shell connections or cart ?

I upgraded my rca wires to ultra high quality thick oxygen free cables and gold rca conectors on my technics but did not notice any difference in sound quality!

But it looks much better 😉

Yup... like people can hear the difference with silver core rca cables

I would argue and say the the pioneer controllers I have played on are muddled sound wise. I can't find info on the sound card. Numark clearly states it uses 24bit output on the NS6 and N67. I usually play gigs with sound guys and when I use my ns6 or my serato 3 box with turntables and a 909 mixer, the sounds guys always say my sound is cleaner the pioneer controller guys.

The realtime 'wow & flutter' readings that many people have made are right in line with all the high-end audiophile turntables - that is actually one of the 1200's strengths.

the motor in the 1200 causes vibration

this statement alone says everything

Thats what I thought, but it is not true! after speaking with many uk audio file companies regarding high end RIAA preamps and carts, the SL1200/1210 is not recognized as an audio file grade turntable and does not have good wow and flutter spec compared to audio file grade turntables and yes the motor does generate noise.

That's said for DJing it is still one of the finest and respected turntables of all time, I will never get rid of mine. But may consider a quieter turntable and better arm for archiving my vinyl.

Technics 1200 MK2 (and its variants) stated W&F specs show a weighted RMS of 0.025% and a peak WRMS of 0.035% - those are excellent numbers and put it squarely in the pack with other high-end audiophile record players.

But those are just company specifications and some people prefer to see independent testing: archimago.blogspot.com

Johnny H - What do you consider to be "good wow and flutter" specs? I'm curious since you seem to think the Technics 1200 MK2's to be "not good".

Well I think you may have misunderstood me!

I own 4 Technics sl1210s ( 2 x sl1210 mkII) and (2 x sl1210 M5G) the later being a beautiful pair of technics!

and I purchased my first pair of 1210MKII in 1987

I use to use Stanton 680 el carts and now use Ortofon NightClub MKII Carts

and I do not think SL1210s are not good as you say!

They are a fantastic turntables and I have even repaired fellow DJs 1210s when the motor drive IC failed, the quality of these decks are amazing and they are built like a tank and ultra reliable.

But the Technics 1200/1210 are NOT audiophile turntables, it's that simple.

But there are many people trying to improve the quality of a 1200/1210 by purchasing all kinds of additional items that are widely available, tone arm kits, dampers and so on.

I personally can not see the point, I would rather leave a 1210 to be a 1210 and purchase something better in the audiophile world for archiving.

I have had long conversations with several audiophile shops and outlets about archiving vinyl the best way possible and they have recommended first off improving the tone arm on the 1210, they explained it is a relatively cheap arm that will not get the best from a good cart. They also explained changing the arm will not get over the back ground motor platter and bearing noise which will be heard on silent and quiet parts of the vinyl with a Technics 1200/1210.

They also explained that removable head shells are a weak area for any high end turntable as this causes miss alignment and improper setup of the stylus angle, thus why all high end turntables have a fixed cartridge that is not removable, ensuring once the alignment is setup its stays that way.

After speaking with several experts I could not see the point in butchering my 1210s with adding new tone arms etc and changing the look and function of my Technics. I would rather leave my 1210s exactly as they are and how they were originally designed. But there are many people out there who have improved the spec of there technics 1210 turntables.

In my studio my technics are on brick built pillars with paving slabs and then the decks sit on 3inch thick special acoustic high density foam. When capturing and archiving my vinyl I get very little noise and feedback through my surrounding in my studio as can be seen on the VU meters when recording through my high end RME studio sound card.

But the moment I hit the start button on the 1210 from nothing being shown on the VUs there is noise of around 12db of surface noise being generated from either the bearings / motors / turntable. Which can be heard at the start of the record and in very low volume areas of a song.

But as I previously stated these are a fantastic turntable, and you have totally miss understood me!

Very simply put they are NOT audiophile grade turntables for many reasons, they are also not in the audiophile price bracket either!

Most quality audiophile turntables start at 5 x the price and go up in to the 10 of thousands, are always belt drive, have glass platters, have external power supplies, much better tone arms, no head-shells, ultra precise engineered bearings and mechanics, carbon fibre and so on and so on.

But the above audiophile turntable would be useless to DJ with! so it's horses for courses

Yes the Technics 1210 is a fantastic turntable, but one can achieve much less noisy results when archiving vinyl on high end equipment using a better grade of audiophile turntable.

Simple.

I been considering a VPI Prime Signature turntable, still relatively entry level in the audiophile world! but a different beast to a technics SL1210

VPI Prime Signature turntable

The Turntable:
The vinyl wrapped MDF composite material chassis is bonded with a sandwiched aluminum plate to provide the ultimate resonance control and rejects feedback
The JMW-10-3DR Tonearm features Nordost Reference Wire
The four Stainless Steel corner posts are designed for isolation and mechanical grounding
The 300 RPM, 24 pole, AC synchronous motor is capable of high torque and quiet operation. The motor is installed in a separate aluminum and steel machined assembly
The Inverted bearing features a hardened stainless steel shaft, 60 Rockwell chrome hardened ball, spinning in a phosphor bronze bushing and sits on a PEEK thrust disc. The belt side load is placed at the center of the spinning bearing for zero teeter-totter effects
The 20 pound 6061 aluminum platter has an accuracy of +/- .001” in a 39” circumference
The motor pulley has an accuracy of +/- .0005” when leaving factory
​
Specifications:
Wow and flutter: .03%
Speed Accuracy: .04%
Rumble: 82db down
Overall Dimensions 21 ⅜" x 15 ¾"
Footprint is 19 ½" x 13 ¾"
66 lbs weight


Hope this makes things a little clearer for you >?

Possibly I did not use the correct termination in previous posts, it may be the rubble noise not the wow and flutter that is better with audiophile turntables which makes them much more preferred for professional archiving.

Salesmen are biased (at best) and straight-up liars (at worst). No information should be taken from such types at face value as they have a financial incentive to create a false narrative. It is their job to sell the items that they have in stock... their livelihoods depend on it. Trusting one's own research is much more prudent than trusting a salesman who is trying to extract one's money from one's wallet.

I agree that the Technics 1200 MK2 were not meant to be an 'audiophile' product offering (I cringe when people on DJ forums claim that) - but the 1200 MK2's were on the higher end of the Technics line up (helmed by the infamous SP-10). But they certainly punch way above their weight and give comparable stats to those turntables that are clearly in the 'audiophile' category.

Now you're saying that it is the rumble that is the 1200 line's Achilles' Heel. Just to give you the actual specification of the Technics 1200 MK2's rumble: -78 dB weighted (which is comparable to the -82 dB found on the VPI Prime Signature, but VPI doesn't say if that reading is weighted or not, which is not very honest of them). Anything below -65 dB weighted is considered excellent and non-audible; anything at -50 dB weighted and above (going towards 0 dB) is audible and considered bad. Rumble isn't a problem on a properly working SL-1200 MK2.

But 'properly working' can be a concern. And you mention noise that you surmise might be from the bearing. If you are truly hearing the bearing as expressed as rumble, then the bearing is shot and needs replacing. That happens when it wears out - which is hastened when regular oiling along the spindle shaft doesn't take place (should be two or three drops every 2000 hours of operation).

By the way, there are plenty of audiophile-grade record players that are direct drive. Since you mentioned VPI, their second most expensive model in their lineup is a direct drive (the VPI Classic Direct costs $30,000 USD... coming in second only to the VPI Titan at $48,000 USD). And, staying with VPI and the subject of direct drive vis-a-vis belt drive, here is a direct quote from VPI's founder, Harry Weisfeld: "I believe direct drive is the way to go when it’s done correctly. I’ve always been a huge fan of the concept, but you can’t get a belt or a pulley perfect, no matter how hard you try. A belt-drive turntable consists of multiple mistakes and you’re always dealing with multiple tolerance errors. Direct drive eliminates these issues."

Can the Technics 1200 MK2 be improved? Absolutely. Better isolation is always helpful. An external power supply has its merits. Fluid dampening for the tonearm is also worthwhile. But the improvements are minor (though not completely insignificant) and the stock SL-1200 MK2 is a reliable, quiet, and affordable record player with highly accurate speed.

Hi Detroitbootybass

Thank you for a very knowledgeable and detailed reply, I have to agree with everything you state.

and also yes the stock SL-1200 MK2 is a reliable, quiet, and affordable record player with highly accurate speed and for the most part an ideal tool to archive ones vinyl collection.

Years ago back in the 1990s I purchased and imported a VPI record cleaning machine which was invaluable when I DJayed in the night clubs keeping my collection clean and dust free. Now I use the VPI cleaner before archiving to get the best results form the vinyl.

But due to the whole process taking such along time as every part of of the rip is in real time I has paused the project. There are still several areas I think I can improve on without spending 10s of thousands!

I don't want to get to the end after 7000 ish 12" rips and not be completely happy with the results. I am more than happy with the digital recording side and the studio DACs I have and with archive 24bit, 192 PCM. as doing a A/B test proves very close to the original vinyl sound quality.

The areas I am not happy with at the moment is (1) RIAA pre amp, (2) the Cartridge, (3) Possibly the turntable 1210 ?

I am not saying I will not use the 1210, but there is defiantly more background and surface noise present than I would like in an ideal world.

Due to most of my collection being well looked after DJ vinyl, I don't want to use a moving coil cart. So to ensure I suck the last bit of detail from the groove I have been looking at high end quality moving magnet carts. Audio Technica top end range and the orofon 2M black.

While investigating the best MM carts, this is when conversations lead too what turntable am I going to use and when I explained 1210s that when I was informed this would not be the best move for this grade of MM cart ?

Then my next dilemma is the RIAA preamp, there are so many on the market ranging from £100s to £1000s, all very subject to each persons taste in sound quality. Also I will not be using the M.C. side of the preamp as only plan to use the MM cart input.

I have a cambridge audio 640p preamp at prersent which has good reviews but deep down I have never been overly impressed and think I can achieve better.

With analogue, I guess the rule of thumb is the more money you can throw at it the better will be the result. Sadly I don't have a lot of money so I am trying to review and consider the best analogue kit within a realistic budget before starting this beast of a project.

When I make the various purchases I want to be happy with the results and not be disappointed and still trying to find perfection. Also the quality of the vinyl is not audiophile quality, so do want to go too good whereby what I choose starts adding more defects to the archived rips.

Its a real minefield not really knowing what is the best all round kit to purchase to achieve the very best results for such a long winded project.

The preamp I have been considering is the Cyrus Phono Signature/PSX-R2 again the reviews are great but until you get it in your hands and have a play you never really know. This preamp has some nice features balanced outputs, cart loading setup etc. and the addition PSU make a BIG improvement of the sound quality.

Shame both my 1210 MKII and the 1210 MK5G both generate background noise when the platter spins. It may just be the limits of what I should expect from a 1210 ?

you may be interested in the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (DC) turntable available for around $500 USD.

Thanks for the input just been and had a look

here are the specs

Tech Specs
Speed: 33, 45 (manual speed change)
Drive principle: Belt drive
Platter: 300mm metal with felt mat
Mains bearing: stainless steel
Wow & flutter: +/- 0,10%
Speed drift: +/- 0,80%
Signal to noise: - 68dB
Tonearm: 8.6" Carbon
Effective arm length: 218,5 mm
Effective arm mass: 6,0 g
Overhang: 18.5mm
Tracking force: 10 - 30mN
Included accessories: RCA cable, lid
Dimensions (WHD): 415 x 118 x 320mm
Weight: 5.6 kg net

Even been looking at some of the Project preamps but they have very mixed feed back and reviews.

I guess I still want to capture that clubby sound from the vinyl deeper bass and crisp clean top end and a nice mid range without making it all sound too sterile.

Thus the right preamp and cartridge will play a big part in the final ripped quality.

Though as Detroitbootybass says I think the Technics 1210 is more impressive spec wise than the project turntable ?

Just wanted to say I've been enjoying this read. Thanks guys.

To me, that still seems like something worth investigating. The background noise should be essentially non-existent.

But if your tables were made from 2009 until production ceased (I'm not including the brand new and relaunched 1200s), then you could have an issue with the EMF (ElectroMagnetic Field) as a design change affected the power transformer creating a larger EM field. But that would only really be noticeable with a high-output cartridge that didn't have shielding. The noise would present itself as a minor hum.





The Ortofon 2M Black is very nice with its Shibata stylus. Quite neutral sounding and, being that you are European regional area, the Ortofon products are a bit more affordable than here in the USA. By that same token, the Audio Technica are cheaper here in North American versus overseas. The upper-end of the Audio Technica lineup are quiet nice as well. Be aware that Audio Technica changed their product lineups this past year, so all of the old reviews/comments about their older models no longer apply to the new cartridges/styli.

I can't speak to the compliance for the new Audio Technica cartridges with a Technics SL-1200 MK2's stock arm, though I am sure certain models will be good matches, but the Ortofon 2M lineup would still work. It's not the most idea matchup though (the generally accepted 'ideal' range is a resonant frequency of 8-12 Hz; Ortofon claims a 7-12 Hz range is ideal). If my 'back of the napkin' math is correct, it is pretty close at roughly 7.6 Hz. You want to avoid being the 6 Hz and below range... and you also don't want to be 15 Hz and above. Still workable, but not a direct bullseye of 10 Hz.

One other thing to keep in mind is the heavier weight of the 2M series cartridges might make it necessary to use the auxiliary weight when using the stock Technics arm.

By the way, what cartridge(s) have you used in your Technics?

DAC inside DDJ-SX2 and DDJ-RX

DDJ S1/T1 : DAC AK4387ET - ADC AK5358AET
DDJ SX2/RX : DAC PCM1690 (Burr-Brown) - ADC 1803A

The turntable discussion is great - but in the real world, as a mobile DJ, you'll probably be using a controller.

The D/A converter in your Pioneer controller has an analog output, which can have a real effect on SQ. You certainly seem technically competent - why don't you open it up and replace the electrolytic caps in the analog output circuitry with high quality film caps. You could actually do one channel at a time for comparison. Also, the output op amp - often a garden variety 5532 sounds better - but working with surface mounted components (which all the new stuff has) is a real PIA.

Also, if you are really concerned with the very best mid-range reproduction, a 15" two way speaker, with a relatively high crossover frequency of 1.2khz - like the JBL SRX715 - is not the best way to go.

Where did you get the information from about the DDJ SX2?

www.manualslib.com

www.manualslib.com




www.manualslib.com

www.manualslib.com

From the specs I wold think the Pioneer DDJ-SX2 has a good soundcard. But people say Denon and Roland sound so far better? What is wrong with the Pioneer DDJ-SX2?

I was never a fan of Pio gear in general when it came down to audio quality. Their hardware is great though.

This is very subjective and us totally down to the user and whether or not they are happy. I went from an original SX to a MCX8000 and it felt like I'd had my ears cleaned out lol.

That would be true considering the SX is long discontinued and years older than the 8000.

I've always wonder, doesn't an external mixer help with sound quality, or does the addition of an external mixer only help with headroom?

SX - Released in 2012

Denon Mcx8000 - Released in 2016

Of course there will be a sound difference with these two.

I don't understand what these dates have to do with sound. Not like there were a great technological advancement in sound over those 4 years. If so please enlighten us. ;-)

Exactly what I was going to say.

Do you guys think there was suddenly new audio tech developed this last two years or something?

There was better sounding tech gear out at the time. Nice audio quality isn't a new thing ;)

I'd like to say they was building to a price point but they was £800 back then and that was expensive. I think they could stick a Pioneer logo on anything and sell it.

I'm not bashing them. I just think if they can cut a corner or two (like any company) then they would do that. When sound quality is imperative for professional DJ gear I felt the audio could have had a bit more R&D spent on it. It was basically a plastic box with a few rotary pots, switches and faders. They didn't even have a system to stop a fader cap from coming off. How much would it have cost to have given us P-Lock fader caps? $0.05 more? I felt they left a lot out to give value to a MK2 model, but they are a business and are looking out for shareholders. It wouldn't pave the way for an SX2 (which had almost zero innovations... Just improvements).

A brilliant controller that really was a dream to work with but left me with ear fatigue after long sets on big rigs as it felt 'harsh'.

techniq logic strikes again

😊

You spelled my name wrong. I’ll let it slide though😉 i still didn’t pick my DJ name after two candy bars though🤷🏼‍♂️

I have mixers and reel to reel machines made by studer from the 1970s that sound better and have better sound stages and electronics than today’s DJ controllers lol

We back in school?

It depends on the internal targeta of the hardware and not of the software

This didn’t involve you🤷🏼‍♂️

I sold my SX2 and bought a Roland 505 because of the poor sound of the pioneer.

It’s a well known fact the SX2 has lots of complaints from users as the sound levels of this unit are so hot you couldn’t have the trim/master knobs any higher than at 9 o clock before it goes into the red.

Pioneer say they set the attenuation of this unit at a higher level than the previous model so it was as close to CDJs/TT’s when switching between them but it just doesn’t sit right and to my ears just sounded like it was pushing the sound far too much.

Agree 100% it’s a shame, as a controller it’s functionality is not bad, it’s just the sound quality and DACs that don’t hit the mark

Surely there is a utility setting where you can change the attenuation on the controller. I can confirm the SR2 does not have these clipping issues.

There was many threads about it at the time but I don't think they changed the firmware even though they said they would "pass it onto the engineers".

They stated SX users had requested it as the input of a standard line in source would have been hotter.

forums.pioneerdj.com

I personally feel they screwed up and didn't want to save face so just rode it out until it died down. They could have given an option (classic/SX2) but didn't.

There's discussions on Serato forums regarding it too. Around the 9pm mark for 0db on the controller seemed silly if you came from an SX1 which was around 11-12pm.