Serato DJ General Discussion

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Serato Flip : the 'flip version' in 'on' but doesn't load...

stephanvh 5:29 PM - 4 January, 2015
I have bought Serato Flip. I made a 'flip version' of a song in which I skipped the intro. The 'flip version' is activated ("on").
When I load the track and just play it, it starts from the beginning of the song. The intro is greyed out but is not skipped. I have to click in the Flip list on the right 'flip version' in order to play it. This can't be the goal ???
Matt P 9:41 PM - 4 January, 2015
Hi Stephanvh,

Have you made sure the flip starts after the first cue point or on the first cue. Remember the flip won't play if the playhead is ahead of the automation.

I'd be interested in testing your flip.

Hit me at support@serato.com and upload your file to the thread there.

Regards

Matt P
stephanvh 3:16 PM - 7 January, 2015
Hi Matt,

I did a lot of testing after your response and it is all pretty confusing...

- I thought recording started after you pressed a cue point. But I don't think this is the case. Recording seems to start from the moment you hit the record button (Why does the button flicker then until you press a cue point???).
- You have to press a first cue point after you passed the beatgrid marker no. 1. Otherwise your Flip won't work when you reload it afterwards... (That was my initial problem). Why ???
- Even if you did and your Flip works when you reload the track, the behaviour is weired. You (pre-)listen to the track, you press 'cue', you press 'play' and your Flip is gone... You have to reload the track again in order to make it work. I don't understand this behaviour...

I don't know if my explanation is clear, because it is not easy to explain...

Thanks for your answer,

Stephan
Matt P 6:11 PM - 7 January, 2015
stephanvh,

If you can provide me with a link to your file, I'll check it out and see what you are doing, even better if you can provide a quick video from your phone or something.

I'll be able to identify whats going on.

Regards

Matt P
stephanvh 11:15 AM - 10 January, 2015
Hi Matt,

I made a video that will make my problems easier to understand, but I don't find a way to send it to you. I don't understand what you mean with "Hit me at support@serato.com and upload your file to the thread there."

I also didn't find the button described in Website Support :
"Some forum areas have an Attach a file button which you can use to upload a file to the discussion. Uploaded files are only visible to Serato and relevant partner support staff."

Can you explain me what to do exactly? Thanks!

Stéphan
Matt P 6:09 PM - 11 January, 2015
stephanvh,

if you email me and attach the link in the email i'll be able to get it.
Since you are posting in the general discussion forum there is no upload option in this area.

Title your email, Attn Matt P, Flip problem.

If you wanna be super fast about it, you'll receive a ticket # after sending and you can post that in here and i'll see it too.

Regards

Matt P
Idgitman 2:55 PM - 21 December, 2015
I have a similar issue. I want to flip some tracks load them to 'Prepare', hit 'Autoplay', and then walk away so I can get a dance with my lady... I rehearsing this, the flipped tracks play the track in its entirety (unflipped) then play again flipped..., Confusing...

They also don't play as @stephannvh says when you load them, even though the track has the flip notation by the track name when play is pressed on the controller. The only way I seem to get them to work is press the 'play' icon in the Flip area...and then they play just fine. but that's not practical, especially if you have a prepared automix or want to use the pads to trigger the first cue, using the play on the controller isn't as accurate and if you mis-beat its too cumbersome have to grab the mouse to pres the play in the flip pane and re-press play

but the whole playing normal and them the flip when in 'Autoplay' is weird...


As an enhancement:
- i'd be nice if for flipped tracks you could make the pad for the first cue point blink and initiate the flip when the pad is pressed.

- And if the time of the flipped track could be displayed, so if the regular track is 5min and the flip is 3min, show the time left/time elapsed relative to the flip.

- And lastly as a real pie in the sky wish, A flip editor, having to start all over because one of the cue points was slightly off time sucks, i'd be cool if there were and editor to edit the flip.
Matt P 7:34 PM - 21 December, 2015
Idgitman,

You can get some good autoplay results by choosing the "load from" preferences in the setup menu and arranging your cues.

I personally move the first cue of the flip automation to the first cue position and that way if I load the song and want the flip to start it will load and start the flip as I desire.

Quote:
The only way I seem to get them to work is press the 'play' icon in the Flip area...and then they play just fine. but that's not practical, especially if you have a prepared automix or want to use the pads to trigger the first cue, using the play on the controller isn't as accurate and if you mis-beat its too cumbersome have to grab the mouse to pres the play in the flip pane and re-press play


If you are using a controller or midi mapped device that has a parameter button you can press the right arrow and it will trigger the flip for you.
Alternatively you can midi map this feature.


Quote:

As an enhancement:
- i'd be nice if for flipped tracks you could make the pad for the first cue point blink and initiate the flip when the pad is pressed.

- And if the time of the flipped track could be displayed, so if the regular track is 5min and the flip is 3min, show the time left/time elapsed relative to the flip.

- And lastly as a real pie in the sky wish, A flip editor, having to start all over because one of the cue points was slightly off time sucks, i'd be cool if there were and editor to edit the flip.


These are good suggestions, You should post them up in the feature suggestion thread

MP
stephanvh 8:17 PM - 21 December, 2015
Hi Matt,

Every new version, I hoped that the problems with Flip would be solved. 1 year ago, I wrote :

"You (pre-)listen to the track, you press 'cue', you press 'play' and your Flip is gone... You have to reload the track again in order to make it work. I don't understand this behaviour..."

I sent you a nice video that showed the problem. You answered me that I was right but, unfortunately, nothing happened...

Kind regards,
Stéphan
Matt P 8:55 PM - 21 December, 2015
stephanvh,

If I am correct, your problem was an issue where the flip started before the first cue?

I think we agreed that the behaviour was a result of where the flip was set and the rules of the flip not working when you load it.
Since flip triggers from the start time once flip engaged, its important to set the record flip state after the load point on the song.

If you wish to start up the discussion i'd be happy to work with you on the thread again.

Regards,

MP
stephanvh 9:09 PM - 21 December, 2015
I just want one thing :

1. You load a song (with Flip)
2. You press the PLAY button and Flip is activated (pre-listening)
3. You press the CUE button
4. You press the PLAY button again and Flip is still activated (playing for the audience)

How can I do this ?

Every time at step 4, I hear the complete song instead of the Flip version
Matt P 9:49 PM - 21 December, 2015
stephanvh,

Step 3, is it the "temp cue" in white or "hot cue"?

MP
stephanvh 8:13 AM - 22 December, 2015
Hello Matt,

I mean the big CUE button on your controller to reset your song to the beginning after pre-listening. I suppose you call it the "Hot CUE".

I don't know if you understand me, but I just want to do the most basic thing :
Load a song, pre-listen the song via headphones, reset it to the beginning and then play the song for the audience. If I just do this, the audience gets the complete song instead of the Flip version.

Stéphan
Idgitman 2:23 PM - 22 December, 2015
Matt, Stephen is right on this one. I tried your suggestion, 'Start at first cue', I think the issue is the S-DJ doesn't fully integrate flip, similar to what would be logical if the first cue in the flip blinked.

Speaking of first cue, I think that's the issue. The first cue of track is not nessarily the first cue of the flip, additionally, the cues of the track, regardless of pad assignment are chronological based, which isn't the best if your flip plays the Outro as the beginning of the flip.

The simplest solution would be to add another check box, 'Start from Flip' but make sure the logic underneath ignores the track chronology and goes by the order of the flip...
Idgitman 2:34 PM - 22 December, 2015
Stephen, this won't solve our flip issue when loading a track, but I plan to work around the situation by using Replay music to just record the flipped track, thereby making it a remix... and play the remixed version for my upcoming set, NYE... Hope that helps.
Idgitman 8:59 PM - 22 December, 2015
Quote:
Every time at step 4, I hear the complete song instead of the Flip version


Same here, except after it plays normally it repeats and then plays the flip...go figure
Matt P 9:31 PM - 22 December, 2015
Hey Guys,

Its really important where you arm the flip recording. I've just tested this, with my track loading from the cue point where the flip starts and its behaving as expected.
If you want to send a help request or link a file i can examine this further.

Quote:
I mean the big CUE button on your controller to reset your song to the beginning after pre-listening. I suppose you call it the "Hot CUE".


We call this "Temp Cue" it doesn't save to the file, hence Temp for temporary.

I'd suggest using the Hot Cue as its saved and you can enable the load from first cue point option in the setup menu. (Just move the cue you use to start the flip to the first cue point)

MP
Idgitman 10:01 PM - 22 December, 2015
Matt thank for taking the time to work with us... So are you saying that if my Flip starts at the end of the track, we need to engage that cue, arm flip, then engage the first cue again and complete the rest of the flip?
Matt P 11:41 PM - 22 December, 2015
Idgitman,

No problem.

To get it to behave as I have it working I follow these steps.

Go to the part of the song that i want to flip. I usually set a cue here even if I don't use it.
Arm Flip
Press the cue to start the fip recording.
Finish the flip recording and save the flip.
If my cue or start point of the flip is not at the beginning I move the cue point that starts the flip to the first cue position in the Hot Cues area.
Eject the track

I always have "Play from first cue point" enabled, but for this to work, double check this is checked.

Now when you go to load that track, it will start at the beginning of the flip, play through the automation and continue through the rest of the song.

Regards,

MP
stephanvh 5:05 PM - 23 December, 2015
Hi Matt,

Once again : the LOAD is NOT the problem, resetting to the beginning after pre-listening is the problem. It then plays the song completely instead of the Flip version. I have more and more the feeling that you don't understand my point.
It can't be possible that I am the only one in the world who loads a song, pre-listens it and then presses the CUE button in order to play it again from the beginning for the audience.
I thought this is the way everybody works...

Kind regards,

Stéphan
Matt P 5:42 PM - 23 December, 2015
stephanvh,

If you don't use the Cue button, rather the first Hot cue (depending on what controller you are using, it may have this on there too) this should work.

I pre listen and treat my flips as if they are part of the song all the time. if this is still a problem i think I should look at your file or you should fire up that support ticket again, that way if its a bug it will get logged.

MP
Idgitman 5:43 PM - 23 December, 2015
Hey, Matt I tried your suggestion, no luck.
It behaves the same that I've already experienced and the same that Stephen is experiencing. Granted I'm tring to do do something different, but the outcomes are the same.

Following your advise, I:
1. Loaded the track
2. Engaged the flip start cue, positioned at the end of the track
3. Armed Flip
4. Engaged the flip start cue.
5. Completed the flip sequence.
6. Moved the play head to the end of the track
7. Turned off flip loop
8. Selected the flip bank
9. Clicked Save.
10. Ejected the track
11. Loaded the track
12. Visually noted the the Flip label was correct
13. Pressed play.

Result :
1. (Start at first cue, On) Track started from the first cue of the track, which is at the beginning of the track and not the last cue of the track, which is the beginning of the Flip.

2. Repeated steps 10-13, with No start options checked and the track started at the last position of the playhead.

3. When repeating steps 10-13, if I press the play icon in the flip area I can then do what Stephen what's to do and start the track using the assigned cue pad and the flip plays fine.

My issue is that I want to load flipped tracks to Prepare, press Autoplay, and walk away. Flips will only play correctly if I manually press the play in the flip area, which means I can't Autoplay because I would have to be at my laptop to present Flip play, otherwise as Stephen states, it will start by playing track in its entirety...
Idgitman 5:47 PM - 23 December, 2015
Quote:
i think I should look at your file or you should fire up that support ticket again,...


I'd like to send you my file. I'll make a short Un organized flip that is the jist so you don't have to listen to the whole flip...
Idgitman 5:51 PM - 23 December, 2015
Quote:
stephanvh,

If you don't use the Cue button, rather the first Hot cue (depending on what controller you are using,...


Matt, I'm using the Numark NV, I am a newbie, I'm not sure I understand in terms of my controller what you mean by cue button vs Hot cue... I have 8 pads, is there a distinction that makes a pad assigned to a cue a hot cue vs a cue?
Matt P 5:56 PM - 23 December, 2015
Idgitman,

Yeah start a thread at support.serato.com and attn Matt P and i'll see it.
You can attach the file there and we can work on it properly.

MP
Javi-O 7:44 PM - 9 September, 2016
I am having the same issue with flip.. When i load the song & hit play it will play the flip version but as soon as i press on cue button (#1 key) on my keyboard It will play the non flip version.. In order to play flip version again i need to click on the play button on the flip box..
stephanvh 9:04 AM - 11 September, 2016
It's annoying. I started this thread 1 year and 9 months ago, but nothing changed. I really see it as a bug. I guess it takes more time to discuss about it than to solve it...
Javi-O 5:02 AM - 14 September, 2016
Yes i agree with you.. I wish there was a setting to keep the flip enabled all the time, no matter how many times you press the cue point button.. It would also be pretty kool if the software can make a duplicate track with the flip version(remixed).. That way you can re edit the cue points on the flipped version.. & there will be no need to re edit track in external software..
Telony Ex 10:02 PM - 14 September, 2016
Quote:
I am having the same issue with flip.. When i load the song & hit play it will play the flip version but as soon as i press on cue button (#1 key) on my keyboard It will play the non flip version.. In order to play flip version again i need to click on the play button on the flip box..



i know what u r doing wrong. the cue 1 that u pressed is after ur first cue that u started ur flip with. when u press it, it seem the play head never returned to that initial spot on the track that started the flip.

wat that means is wen the track is loaded, it will play the flip wen it reaches the first cue that starts it. in order to play the flip again. the play head will have to pass over that first cue point again.


fix....ensure ur cue is before the start of ur flip.
max_imus 1:28 PM - 15 July, 2017
Flip IMO is buggy to the point of being completely unusable.
Idgitman 12:51 PM - 1 October, 2017
Quote:
Flip IMO is buggy to the point of being completely unusable.


I'd have to agree... I tried to no avail. It half worked sometime, but wasn't predictable. What I ended up doing is when it was working, just record the track and take the mystery of if it was going to work live out...
max_imus 5:35 PM - 10 November, 2017
Hey Matt, stephanvh, others

This is now the third or fourth time I've tried to understand how Flip works to use it for my edits. Every time I've been frustrated and given up, this will be the last time I try, after this if I don't succeed it's editing with third party software for good.

First of all, the documentation on Flip is atrocious. Let's start with the walkthrough video:
support.serato.com
This may be useful for people using MIDI controllers, but for 'normal' users it's extremely misleading. With the MIDI controller, when you press a cue point apparently the track plays (and continues to play) from that point, as seen in the video:
Watchwww.youtube.com
But on the computer obviously the track only plays until we let go of the button associated with the cue point.

So I understand that pressing 'record' arms the recording, but only pressing a cue point starts the actual recording. Nowhere do you guys explain what 'start the actual recording' means in technical terms.

Also, I have made the experience that this shows some completely random behavior. Let's say I load a track and start playing it from the beginning. I press record, and after a couple seconds I press a cue point located later in the track. Sometimes, the flip will jump from the random point at the beginning of the track to that cue point, and sometimes it will play the whole song up to that cue point like it expect it to.

Now, let's talk about the user guide. Excuse my sarcasm, but is this 'user guide' some 5 minute project a trainee did at your company?

Generally speaking, the UI and the available buttons on Flip recording don't make sense to me at all. Either this was designed more for live Flips, or then it was done in a way that is logical to a programmer but not to a user.

I've already mentioned the discrepancy between arming and the 'actual start of recording', whatever that means. This makes no sense whatsoever from a usability standpoint.

The 'on' button makes no sense to me either. Why would we need an 'on' button when we are recording, isn't it the whole point that it's on??

Loop is not really explained either, also as of consequence because where exactly the beginning and end of the Flip is isn't defined. Also, what exactly does Loop Snap do, just make Flip loop in beat? Why would we even need this, isn't that the whole point of having Quantize on?

"If you accidentally end the Flip a little too early, or too late, the Loop Snap (when turned on) will adjust the length of the entire Flip to match your tracks BPM." - This makes no sense from a technical standpoint. What would be expected is, again, that if we 'end a flip too early or too late' (again, whatever the h this means in technical terms is completely unclear) the Flip would just end on beat, which was the whole point of Quantize the way I understood it. (Yes, I understand we can have quantize turned off, but then what would the point of loop snap be??)

Speaking of quantize, this is the last issue. Obviously, we use quantize to set and trigger cue points at an exact point on the grid. However, when using Flip, say I loop 4 times thru the same 2 bars of a part of the song. When playing the flip, the song jumps on beat, yet it jumps at a slightly different point every time, I assume this is the point at which precisely I triggered the cue point, and this is visible in the waveform. How does this even make sense when the whole point of having quantize on is supposed to be to have jumps EXACTLY at the grid marker?

I'm not gonna open any help requests or make any videos, what I have just written should be clearly understandable and reproducible, and if I'm doing something wrong or have some basic misunderstandings then at least some other people with similar issues will be able to read and learn here. I'm really hoping to get some in-detail answers here Matt, being that the user guide and walk-trough video give such extremely limited information it would really be helpful to have these questions answered. Thanks in advance.
Idgitman 10:03 PM - 10 November, 2017
I feel your pain, I spent weeks without 100 expected success. I will say in a limited way I am able to at least get the desired result. My expectation for flip was that if I had it enabled for a given track that whenever I loaded that track the Flip would play, I had no luck... I did however, accomplish that goal by just manually kicking off the Flip and using 'Rec' to record it. I made sure to label the new track as my Flip/Remix.

So I found Flip useful in preparing special mixes but I would not dare attempt to use it live, I could never predict the circumstances that it was and when it was not going to work.


I've accepted how it works and can live with it.
dj_soo 10:29 PM - 10 November, 2017
Are you hitting the first cue at the start of your flip session? I made the mistake of doing that and had some issues with loading if I hit the cue a little later than expected.

Now I just hit the cue where I intend the edit to happen and things are smooth sailing.