+1
(Except for vulgarness)

Please excuse this tear and vulgarity -- a fierce keyboard of 10 minutes. This is still how I feel.

Just bring back the bridge PERIOD!

+1

Hi people!
I'm mostly agreed with the statements almost related to the technical downsides of the problem but...

if you are waiting for these kind of workflow, you don't need to. Until Serato (or Traktor) "catch the wave" you could use Scratch Track plugin from Stagecraft soft.

This is more or less a plugin which features automation record doing possible (and giving a workaround) to the issue about audio clips in ableton live.

If you need to "mixtapping" midi also, Ableton has implemented a "session recorder" so I think is a matter of start working on it and stop arguing against it.

I spent my later years in researching at this field and contributing in some projects to bring this idea to reality but I'm a bit tired... the last feel in my heart and thought in mind is using djing programs as a big groovebox and I needed the "scratch factor" but it is so much energy (and so less resources) to continue working on it.
I just need move on. Maybe I will try one last workaround to check possibilities still not explored. If I do it, I will wrote my promised blog post to share the knowledge of course.

Few links for your interest.
www.stagecraftsoftware.com
Watchvimeo.com
www.skrat.ch
Watchwww.youtube.com


Peace.
Mudo

the combination of ableton and digital vinyl...... awesome but I think serato technically can't manage the challenge. frankly, I think the guys at ableton should just build their own digital vinyl as ableton clearly a step up in software complexity from serato.

seems like such an amazing idea and so weird that they made itch, SSL and SDJ.... a lot of messing around for virtually the same thing rather than focussing on one and fixing the bridge.

another vote for do it, if not serato then ableton guys.

With new max7 is possible to improve the Ms. pinky thing in m4l but also do a complete ableton live in max7 directly...

Related to Serato I still think the combination of Remote, Flip, improved Sp6 and midi/metadata output could do the job for bridge/mixtape with no extra cash in ableton soft... Maybe is time to think in some kind of timeline view?

In addition to the stated avobe, if you want to develop your own bridge... Start patching with this:

mansteri.com

Above :P

Ive recently Started working alot with The DVS expansion pack for Serato DJ . Im using the akai amx system and one turntable + instant doubles and the remote software on ipad. The setup works very well and seems to be stable beyond power fluctuations, startups of other software, and muddling around in the sound preferances of other programs while Serato is running. I had considered getting an SL3 box in order to have access to the Bridge but it doesnt make any sense to me at this point with the streamlined operatiions of the AMX and what Im doing.

In 2005 I was very attached to the idea of traktors NMX function which was essentially an action recorder for the user interface of Traktor. I figured out how to port midi commands and audio to and from ableton to record and create automated mixes with a timeline view. It was very crashy and the computers of the Day did not have the processing nor the viability across the new standard in intel chips on the mac platform. Traktor went through a complete overhaul at that time as well, with traktor 3 being dropped from the intel support side as well. So like farenhiet 451 the info was essentially deleted, I believe that a system that revisits some of the utility of the NMX and the well developed aspects of the Bridge that have been exercised extensively in Scratch LIve could be a great tool when combined with the high performance of the current computers and software stability . I think the time is now.

Agreed. It could be possible do some kind of "proof of concept" nowadays even recording the timecode signal (splittered) into DAW and Serato/Traktor app. Hijacking midi for the automation too...

Then you could recreate your own bridge but lots of coding for something not so useful at this moment...

I suspect that tractor and maschine are going to be combined at some point. you're exactly right @Mutis, a timeline view would be great. but probably even harder to make than just being able to save down the mix information as an ableton file with at least basic mix control functionality. (trigger, tempo, faders, eq etc).

(i don't agree that sp6, flip etc are anywhere close to the functionality of The Bridge and certainly not what I wanted to do with it.)

what i really don't get is that they already done the hard work.

anyway, I was so irritated with it I've bought a rane68 to use with scratch live, ableton and the bridge. totally f*cked up migrating to software that is just falling into unsupported but whatever. it's still the only thing on the planet that integrates DJ'ing and production.

@Caché What feature do you miss from the bridge (and/or mixtape) which Flip (pseudo-automated paterns = ableton midi for deck clip) or "some kind of advanced" sp6 (with scratchable clip triggering) is not doable?

Drum racks or synth? DAW composition to intgrate inside the mix?
Please share your thoughts!

I'm not saying these are best than the bridge... I'm saying "integrate the functions from inside to outside" where Ableton should be the last step not the first...

Workflow is basically this:
1. Perform a mix session in serato.
2. Tweak it. Correct where I knocked the fader slightly or where I just didn't have five hands to drop the track in a bit earlier or apply a filer to just one track or trim the level of one track but not the other. Decide that I really need to insert a track between two others as the mix is muddy (or kill the mids on only one track for the same reason)

There's plenty of other uses too. Does that make sense?

And thanks for posting.
Eventually somebody is going to properl combine digital vinyl and a timeline with full non-destructive editing.... Until then, I have my rane 68, SSL and a copy of ableton from the dark ages :)

There are options nowadays like stagecraft software vst with automation and vinyl control but we hope Serato is going in the direction to give users some useful too.

Your workflow makes sense but I only see mixtape feature in your description, right?

Imagine if these "session recorder" is integrated inside Serato itself instead of Ableton running in the background... It could be possible even to record a xml compatible wpbetween them (or third party). Some kind of "full under the hood automation recorder" (including Flip performances and scratch routines... The routine itself not the output audio!)

It is possible but I think there wasn't the goal in Serato headquarters because most users will understand automation and sync like enemies or "realdjing"...

Take all these data and metadata and transcribe it into a timeline is not so difficult, almost is easy do it internally than output to third party application (like Ableton). The mentioned above SC soft performs this more or less but maybe in the conversion between audio timecode signal (or noisemap in Serato) the "parse" performs some kind of downgrade in resolution terms (just wondering not really looked deeply into it yet...) and maybe that's the point to keep the whole thing in audio realm and not in midi one.

One solution could be implement dedicated protocol (OSC could do the job better than midi in some many ways and it is open source...) almost for turntable vector signal movements due to the high accuracy involved. For faders 14 bits midi should be enough (maybe for the platters too really...) and finally give users the usual toolchain to edit the performance like mixtape and some new tools for dedicated turntablism transcription.

Even it could be possible to keep the data for the turntables inside Serato and recall it from other DAW like a plugin itself. More or less like scratch track plug...

Finally add some "session view" from Ableton (early coded in The Bridge plugin as a front end if you remember) and shot the parts/timeline cues/tags in something between remix decks and Ableton Live plus sp6 and flip (rendered as midi clips) and you will have a very powerful tool for mixing, remixing and live act. Using each window in each part of workflow...

What do you feel about it? It makes sense to you?

Cheers

I've seen the stagecraft stuff and sadly it's just too weak for DJ'ing. a bit of fun for making a scratch noise but it's not close to a live DJ environment.

everything else you proposed makes sense. funny thing is though, again, you basically described The Bridge!

i mean, yeah, if there were some output in the form of XML, that would make it easier to exchange arrangement data.

Just ran across this thread. Yeah... I think you might just have it figured out. Seems it's all about the Benjamens, where they are concerned.

Hey, don't hijack the thread. We're rudely moaning about something else here.

I'm agree with the first part because it seems in eternal beta state and the GUI is not most user friendly in the dj industry but Aaron Leese deserves credit for being so innovative (and hear feature request...)
In other hand I pointed out as a proof of concept which could be implemented aswell in Sdj.

The second part I'm not fully agreed... I described what most of us expected from The Bridge as a wish but it hasn't all that I described starting for true and full clip scratching content in live or true transport control with audio forward/backwards or complete automation including turnatble vector position, direction, speed... In resume scratch notation (not for drawing scratches in the first option but yes for erasing mistakes...)

At last I will love to see a "one platform" solution over a "two programs glue" or almost, if you are going to do it, make it polish like maxforlive...

Nowadays I expect maybe a mix in between to keep alive the "partnership" and take some profit of the work done but maybe an integrated maxforlive pluging (or dedicated live instrument better said) could do most than the original approarch. LiveApi has limitations itself which makes the "thing" limited itself and even more if you (as a developer) don't want to open yourself too much to the other... (You should see a log from the Ableton engine and how the bridge is "our part of the engine" labeled lol)

Lol... I know, but after i read what the OP said, i had to make a comment. It's just so obvious that they've abandoned almost everything else, in favor of grabbing quick money from newbie DJs. I definitely agree with the OP.

Yup!

still waiting for the bridge and mixtape to come to SDJ....
:-(

After a few convos, I'm hearing a common theme around a lack of Bridge use. A lot of djs don't/won't/can't pony up to buy Ableton. Serato is near $600, Ableton Intro is $100 up to Suite costing $800. They don't see the value in it. Which means corporate doesn't see the economic validity to invest in upgraded R&D. I love potential of Bridge both for performance & ease of mixtape function when doing weekly broadcasts on a tight schedule. But these corporations listen to the numbers more than anything else.

Hope those who use it are pushing its limits. Create in spite of not limited to. ✌🏾️

If we can't get the bridge in SDJ, can we get a port to use controllers in SSL?

Here's what I heard from a little birdie and it may not but true but it was interesting.

A while back Traktor was a threat to Serato. Not just Traktor, but new comer djs were not buying TTS, Mixers and SL boxes. It was way cheaper to go Traktor then to get a serato setup. Keep in mind there weren't many controller options. There were like 3-4 itch controllers. Anyway, due to the threat, Serato approached Ableton about a merge. They wanted something to offer to wow everyone. Traktor did all those cool things and serato didn't. It was basically straight djing. The thing is Traktor no longer became such a huge threat and a combination of what you mentioned above and they just abandoned the whole project. Just something I heard.

But what you mentioned is right. I can see where corporate will ditch a project that's not bringing newcomers. Corporate doesn't know anything though. I'm sure there are a lot of people that would hop on due to the features, but who knows. Maybe it's not worth all the money. I think also SDJ figures we can just slowly incorporate newer features without the need of a merge. Just like Traktor does.

Sounds about right...

I've given up on SDJ for the time being, and I never was able to use Ableton for anything more than a sample dropper anyway.

I've fallen back on my VDJ license for now. I've found that if you can program, you can get just about anything out of V8 that you might want.

Hence the ditching of SSL

Bingo!

i62.tinypic.com

I said that above.

This is from moderator at fb page so it has some "value" (almost to me, of course)

Mine was from someone at one of the companies. Not naming names or which one of the companies. lol but yeah... good to know.

I mean I figured as much since SDJ started to incorporate a lot more features. Considering also Traktor being the makor competitor has a lot of those features.

This I'm sure will be a paid add on also. I hope this means it will get more attention and be finished before the summer. But if w dont see it by june it wont be until the fall.

mixtape please? plus more accurate sticker lock on the first cue point "re-drop" like SSL please! :)

Cheers then :beer: ;)

As a preface, my current workflow for recording demos for upload or self-promo consists of using Serato DJ to jam as a sketch pad and then just trying my best to memorize my mixes and replicate them manually in Ableton. I tweak the mix in Ableton to my content, considering what I can physically manipulate in real time, and then use the arrangement view as a "staff music" of sorts to rehearse my mix and then go back and do it live until I get it right. I could just mix in Ableton, but it's too cumbersome for doing that and inhibits the spontaneity audiomontana was getting at. While I don't care about manual beatmatching, I do care about the feeling of DJing live by just mixing on the fly. All of this could be eliminated by Bridge with Mixtape or an arrangement/timeline mix automation feature (basically, Mixtape but completely contained within Serato DJ). I don't think any such thing will be added for Serato DJ as we know it anytime soon, if ever.

In my opinion, Serato DJ as of 1.5 and beyond is just a stopgap to unify their products to better combat Traktor Pro/Traktor Pro Skratch while buying them time. And it's working. I think that is what Gio Alex was hinting at with the threat of Traktor being eliminated for now putting the kabosh on any rumored Serato/Ableton unification. Traktor is better on paper without question (far superior MIDI mapping, Remix decks destroy SP-6 and are arguably better than the Bridge ever was due to the tight integration, potential for integration of Traktor/Remix decks with Maschine), but the software (Traktor) just gets so many simple things wrong, from the awkward library management to being stubborn on licensing with third parties, basically handing Serato all the best controllers on a silver plate, that Serato dunked on them at NAMM 2015 worse than Vince Carter did on Frederic Weis at the Olympics. Those flaws of Traktor that NI doesn't seem to care about addressing don't weight out against Serato's features 1.5+ even considering NI's better designed feature set.

I have to imagine there's something new in the works, wether it's called Serato 2.0 or whatever, that rebuilds the software from the ground up with all the expansion features tightly integrated and redesigned. Look at Flip. It could, in some sense, have been MixTape for Serato by allowing automation of everything from transport/playback, to trigger cues, loops, beatjumps, effects, timecode tracking, even other Flips. But designing that, I would imagine, in the current Serato DJ environment without jeopardizing latency and stability would be night impossible. Hell, make Serato 2.0 run as advanced automated sampler in Ableton 10, even, if that works best.

Dammit double post

See, and edit function would be great here so I could delete my double post, just like editing my mixes in an arrangement view would save me having to get it perfect the first time.

I'm sure they are working on a plugin/addon that will be in direct competition with the Traktor Remix Decks and be able to record the midi data to tweak later on, hopefully in offline mode. When I first saw Flip, I couldn't really figure out its usefulness besides taking away the fun of on-the-fly cue point triggering. Then I realized that it's basically the large scale test of recording and playing back midi data in SDJ. It seems like they figured it out for the most part and I believe with that accomplishment they could then build upon it for a more beefed up sampler/remix deck type plugin.

If you scroll through this forum often, then you know that many folks have issues with the many different controllers SDJ supports and they all demand fixes to these issues "right now." I don't know exactly how many employees Serato has, but judging by the escalation of issues that keep popping up after the flood of newly supported controllers, it seems like the developers spend most of their time figuring out how to make the current features work for everyone instead of being able to push the software to the next level. For a solid 8 years, many of us only gave money to Serato once or twice by buying a box or mixer (rev share deal with Rane more than likely). So, Serato (which is a separate software company than the hardware company Rane) hasn't had much steady flow of revenue. This is the main reason why they had to switch to the paid plugin/addon model we see in SDJ. Now that they have put out a few more paid plugins in addition to more customers by opening up support for other hardware, they have obviously started making more and more money than they have in the past. This means that soon (if they haven't already) they will be able to hire more developers to push this software into the future.
I hope this future Bridge-like plugin is everything we all hope it will be.

BTW, I have used my SL3 box with SDJ in internal mode and NI Maschine at the same time. Decks 1&2 in SDJ going out Channels 1&2 and Maschine going out Channel 3 on the SL3. All of the SL3 inputs were being used with external synths running through and recording into Maschine. I haven't tried this with my NS7-II yet, but it MIGHT be able to do the same. If so, then there SHOULD be a way to also route the midi and be able to send the audio and midi into Ableton to record or even trigger. I haven't tried this out but I will soon.

I don't see how it could give the full functionality that would make it useful, such as post-recorded automation of all parameters, playback functions while retaining the speed and reliability for traditional live performance, without a complete rebuild of the software. It is a huge change to the way the software works.

Can you imagine how cpu intensive it would be.

Some nice comments here.

On intensive processes -- Native Mix in the old Traktor 3 did exactly what we are talking about on a g4 laptop easilly .

The software is already rebuilt and ready for GUI action recording and editing. the controller version of serato is what was needed in order for this feature to work. Itch was beta.

Any Dj who has kept up with manual vinyl manuipulation and beatmatching can appreciate what a multitrack transport recorder would do for Mapping, Prep, and Hietening the quality of the final mix. Next level shit includes integration of something that is similar to an NI remix pack but resembles Mixmiester's overview in playlist graphic form -- like ableton's gui and sharing the loops and cue points that can easily be created and enjoyed in serato.

The ipad App + an unlock device such as the Akaii amx = portable mix creation and prep that will cater to old school techniques and allow recall of seremdipitous grooves and cuts that can
only happen when you are messing around with a couple of records or a CDJ. Create/source in the studio/REFINE/play out the genius when people are listening, STILL BE ABLE TO SWITCH IT UP. < thats DJING

Agreed. I just wrote the common in the last messages at other post. I will try to repost here to add my love.

Re-reading my earlier post I figured it was explained but here we go...

/
Hi guys,
First of all Happy new year!

Due it seems maybe a Serato worker is tracking this one and some of you male a good points in the earlier posts I will give my humble (and bit technical) opinion/help (also because I will not make finally my blog and focus myself in live looping and other life things)

Let's start by facts, then go technical and finally wonder solutions.

Facts:
-Serato The Bridge and mixtape should be separated products.
Well, they could be but the inner tech made them a failed frankstein.

-Ableton audio engine is not cappable of scrubbing backwards for scratching.
Mmm... Yes but it is not a real problem. It could be possible to develop a solution but maybe is easier go go over it and focus in the most simple solution...

-Sync is necessary to keep beatgridding, to keep fx automation, to warping...
That's maybe why the Bridge/mixtape didn't take off. Ssl users often believe this is cheating blabla... But sync is a tool not the devil.

-All the features in the partnership required booth software. Each software should be cappable of all the features without the other.

Well, the "in-the-middle" finally product was incomplete from all the POV, even when Mixtape users had take most of the need.

So, how to keep all (or the majority of users)?
Due the technical implications and the "suposed" wanted features it could be achieve with two different routes. Maybe a mix of booth could be the right solution. Let's see.

Proposition for solution one:
Every software is cappable of the majority functions that the other has.
This means Serato is cappable of scene recording and launching (Flip does it more or less) also means Ableton could be cappable of clip scratching (it could be nowadays but it isn't)

What Serato will need? Improve their own tools and "link" to Ableton (or any host really... Or develop a host?)

Proposition two:
Take from each software the best and make them run altogether.
Well this has its own drawbacks as we notice in the Bridge released like version dependency, remote scripting dependency, no instruments channel control... But it could be improved of course.

Technical solutions:
First place: Embrace sync. Without "link" or "bridge" (it was a python link under the hood so sync between them) none of this is possible. Accept it as good, needed, useful and grow. Without it keep yourself in SSL realm and its limitations but stop rant or demand "magic". There is not useful solution without syncing the transport between them and internally (Flip is a midi recorder for cues, mixtape is an automation recorder for channel faders and crossfaders...) so undertand it and dream about how use it without think you are cheating, because it isn't.

Anyways it could be possible to "market" it as no sync if you keep the apps isolated (improving Flip with vinyl tracking recording too) and creating an xml file with all the recorded movements (even mixer fx if they are midi controllable of course) then open it in editor to erase/improve mistakes or...

Create an special channel in Ableton live cappable of decode these "inner recordings" and continue producing in live (maybe it could be possible with vst ala scratchtrack but it has some limitations against native rack or maxforlive). It sounds complex because it is and will require an intense hand to hand work like maxmsp implementation which cost to max users the drop of pluggo and only became a winwin situation this year with the max7 release which open maxforlive devices without ableton intervention (making Max7 a complete host with transport, timestretching, video...)

Finally thoughts:
I was very skeptic with the Bridge release. Also I was very beligerant because it promisses things than never happen and force users to buy booth softwares. I help in the development of Ms.Pinky midi cappabilities, maxforlive device design, skrat.ch project, scratchML project and so many others which never will give credit (nor thanks) to all the energy I put to solve this "issue": Turn the turntable a full modern instrument. Inspired by A-trak and the other guy who design TTM handwritting tool, inspired by Ms. pinky maxmsp do it yourself canvas and so many other individuals who try to make a difference. That was what I learn from Hiphop Culture ans that's what I give all my knowledge/help to the Serato now. Because they make a good job (like Vestax in their own) but befause I see this is no going to happen never and maybe it is unnecessary to most users.

A full automatable (including vinyl vector) SDj could be solution to bridge and mixtape anything. The proof of concept is out there in pieces of the puzzle... Maybe it is time to hire Scott wardle or Aaron Leese and of course hearing your userbase.

I hope it helps. Happy new year once again.

Lots of love,
Mudo, mutis etc

/

Thanks for your continued attention and ... constructive responses to this thread. I know that my initial post is jaded and rude.

Recently I started putting out feelers to help me use an sl3 or sl4 to plug to ableton and create a workaround that is like mixtape. Not alot of work done on this yet.

I am using an Akai AMX as my serato interface for DVS control/vinyl ripping. My thoughts have been to begin using the AMX as an midi controller for ableton so as to began the ideas of what it would be like to use this controller in a 'Mixtape' type environment. It is not possible to designate the interface as the soundcard for both programs.

Options are to use an sl3 or sl4 and external mixer to control SERATO dj. And record the audio from the sends of the xone 92 via motu soundcard. This could be done with a seperate computer.

'Mixtape' Playback would be handled by the AMX in ableton where it would provide the midi information to be written to the timeline view.


creating a mix tape with serato would work like this.

-organize music in serato

-Use Serato DJ DVS + sl3/sl4 and xone92 to practice(demo) mixes in serato until correct grooves are found

-Start recording in ableton computer to notate track placement, this would require two stereo tracks in ableton's timeline view. The send channels of xone 92 would provide the seperated audio feeds for the motu and recording computer.

Warp recorded tracks in ableton on recording computer. Warping should not affect alignment of recordings in timline view

Align Master tempo track of ableton.

Use ableton for playback of 'mixtape' and utilize the AMX for midi command writing to the lanes of the individual recorded audio tracks.

Adjust latency& Monitor the Mix. Add additional audio ideas from the serato/DVS playback computer.

Repeat process until a complete 'mixtape' idea is recorded in ableton.

Finalize 'mixtape' ideas/recordings and adjust/warp recordings or use the actual audio tracks from the serato library so as to preserve audio quality. Adjust master tempo tracklane for overal temp0 changes in 'Mixtape.

Playback complete mixtape and bounce to 'Demo recording' or use for multitrack based real time performance utilizing compiled ideas and realtime manipulation of effects and EQ.

This is how I make a highly developed mix idea that contains music research, vinyl manipulation skills, and sound knowledge during performance or demo rendering. I have used and enjoyed this method with real vinyl and DAW hardware/software for 20 years.

It would be much easier and simpler and less expensive if:

- Mixtape worked
- Serato Scratch Live and Bridge had a future < i would invest in another Digital mixer and use it.
- Serato was available as a module inside ableton live.
- Serato was able to 'rewire' to ableton live.

Please fix/develop mixtape for Serato DJ. It is a shame to leave people with musical ideas and knowledge such as myself to rot while the infantile beginners continue to overpopulate listeners ears with unthoughtful and over mashed mixing.

Mixtape would allow for a refinement of the mixing/dj sketchbook. It would be true to the origins of the art.

Good Luck

I see this made with traktor less painful... Midi out (including clock) from Serato is a must. Link could help but it is necessary map the midi controls (maybe with remote scripting made at the bridge remade) to make it straightforward.


Thanks for share mate.

Easily the AMX device could be used as the input for the Ableton side. Heres a flow chart hahaha.


Vinyl Deck 1 -- SL4 input1(Comp1) -- Serato DJ deck1 -- SL4 output1 --Xone92 Ch1 Line in --
Vinyl Deck 2 -- SL4 input2(Comp1) -- Serato DJ deck2 -- SL4 output2 --Xone92 Ch2 Line in --

Xone92 Send1 output--AMX input 1--Ableton track(Recordvariable1-10) -- MultitrackSEND1--
Xone92 Send2 output--AMX input 2--Ableton track(Recordvariable1-10) -- MultitrackSEND2--

AMX MidiControl of audioSEND 1 for XONEemulation--output to master -- AMX output
AMX MidiControl of audioSEND 2 for XONEemulation--output to master -- AMX output

you could just use both USB cables on the SL4 and not need the AMX.

The AMX is used for midi control/automation recording in Ableton.

Both relevant configurations.

The idea here is to create a workflow for an audio sketchbook. Because alot of quality would obviously be lost in the DA-AD-DA. Its not meant to be a live performance tool. Personally this is meant to work in the studio, record configurations of track against track and then rework sessions to create dedicated workflows for Demo or Eventually live performance. Original high quality tracks could be added to ableton so as to create a better output quality. Its phase alignment and timeline ideas that are being generated is the mix tape process.

I was pushing a similar idea with Traktor while using NMX. Somewhat the same thing but internal to Traktor 3.

I wonder if Serato would consider a Flip Agregator where a module is created to hold a timeline of tracks that are moveable and recordable at there place in an overall flip timeline. When in the 'mode' associations are created between the tracks so that while playing a track you may engage another deck holding the associated track. The Aggregated Flip would start the new track in the mix/in phase with the other track in the manner it was when the flip recording was engaged. This would be the type of audio sketchbook that gives the user the ability to play live and also change things up quickly also remember very important groove on groove configurations.

This would totally work, and be almost the same thing as mixtape. It would work until serato stops supporting the SL4 .....