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How can I help clubs deal with clipping DJs?
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How can I help clubs deal with clipping DJs?

Jeffhtg 9:11 PM - 3 December, 2008
Hello forums! I am a veteran A/V and production designer. Been using Rane products for more than 10 years. Want to pick your brain and see what you can come up with. I have noticed a growing problem with Scratch using DJs with many different venues in many different areas. The problem is simple; too many artists are increasing the software channel gain knob to the point of distortion (clip). "DJing in the red" is bad we know that - and ultimately it is the DJ's fault. However it is happening all to much, to the point where techs constantly have to look over the DJs shoulder and scold them to turn it down.

Gain structure is different in many different venues. I feel Because of this DJs will tend to turn their software gain up to compensate (especially on an inadequate sound system). Nothing boils my blood more than to have a DJ play on a high end sound system that is capable of gorgeous sound.. but have it sound bad.

It wouldn't be so bad if we could walk up to the DJ and "set his limits" .. i.e. move the channel volume globally to say.. 11o'clock (where I feel it should be PERMANENTLY locked). The problem I see is that when the DJ changes tracks the channel volume changes (I assume the setting is saved with the song).

Things improve a little with the TTM-57. We just recently started selling these to many of our clients. Like some other popular high end dj mixers - the TTM appears to 'cut' instead of 'boost' on the hardware channel volumes. This really is how all mixers should be made. I wish there was a bigger 4 channel version of this thing to compete with the other guys flagship mixers.... (pokes Rane).

So there it is.. I have spent many hours complaining about this amongst my peers. I literally have a dozen calls a week to various nightclubs because the "system is blown".. I walk up - turn the DJ's gain down.. turn the mixer output up and everything sounds good again. I feel there should perhaps be a pro DJ school that these people should be REQUIRED to go to.. learn about clipping, distortion, gain structure, etc..
Serato, Forum Moderator
Michael R 9:41 PM - 3 December, 2008
*Moved to DJing Discussion*
DVDjHardy 9:59 PM - 3 December, 2008
My suggestion would be to talk to the club owners and get the authority to tell the DJs what you just described. If not, let them know that they'll be responsible to cover the damages to the club's sound system.

This is the biggest reason our club's managers and sound techs don't like anyone besides the resident DJs playing there. When we do have guest DJs who ignore the sound tech's plea to turn down the music, the sound guy usually messes with the booth monitor EQ to the point you just wanna turn everything down to avoid distortion without anyone saying so.

Quote:
. I feel there should perhaps be a pro DJ school that these people should be REQUIRED to go to.. learn about clipping, distortion, gain structure, etc..


Hahaha...good luck with that idea!
sixxx 10:00 PM - 3 December, 2008
Well, this has to be dealt on a per venue basis. Doing a "sound check" for a particular DJ and THEN telling them to keep it there should do it. However, you're going to run into DJ's who have BAD quality files and they will try and "compensate" by turning the gain up when we know it's not going to increase the quality, just make it louder and possibly more distorted.

I don't see many veteran DJ's doing this because they're experienced, but there are just too many microwaves out there who know nothing about DJing... let alone sound, etc.

So, I don't know what else to tell you.
Audio1 10:19 PM - 3 December, 2008
At my main venue I DJ at, We have a monitor that tells us when we are clipping and when we do, It drops the main -6 until we correct the issue. Imma be real here, Hella DJ's dont know how to properly EQ music. I can remember one time when DJ CQ came up from Socal to DJ at Mission Rock, He was the only DJ to use EQ's and the Soundguy was bugging out that he was EQing his tracks, while the other swaggerjacker DJ's were just pushing all the EQ's at their highest limits with no regard. More DJ's need to know how to use em, for reals.
aj5000 10:34 PM - 3 December, 2008
Quote:
Well, this has to be dealt on a per venue basis. Doing a "sound check" for a particular DJ and THEN telling them to keep it there should do it. However, you're going to run into DJ's who have BAD quality files and they will try and "compensate" by turning the gain up when we know it's not going to increase the quality, just make it louder and possibly more distorted.

I don't see many veteran DJ's doing this because they're experienced, but there are just too many microwaves out there who know nothing about DJing... let alone sound, etc.

So, I don't know what else to tell you.


I Second that! ! ! This is all the clubs fault for booking and getting this wack ass microwave dj's that don't know shit about proper EQ'ing. most djs that been in the game for longer then 5 years should and already know this
"never get in the reds" basic shit
DJ Young Herrera 10:44 PM - 3 December, 2008
Ask cubicle about a club he used to spin at where the owner were come over and turn your EQs all the way to the red...
dj cubicle 10:49 PM - 3 December, 2008
LOL...and my poor 56 has never been the same. I actually had to take the old Vestax 05 to therapy after it played a night there.

Idiots.

...and Hardy's sound guy is a d-bag.
dirtbag filthy 10:50 PM - 3 December, 2008
my shit goes to eleven brosef!
DVDjHardy 11:04 PM - 3 December, 2008
Quote:
...and Hardy's sound guy is a d-bag.


No arguments here.
sixxx 11:16 PM - 3 December, 2008
If you have good quality files, you shouldn't have to use your mixer's EQs - that's if the main system is EQ'd correctly. I usually leave my mixer all flat and ONLY will tweak songs that I know were mastered improperly, or whatever.
MusicMeister 11:52 PM - 3 December, 2008
Quote:
If you have good quality files, you shouldn't have to use your mixer's EQs - that's if the main system is EQ'd correctly. I usually leave my mixer all flat and ONLY will tweak songs that I know were mastered improperly, or whatever.


Any more than 3dB on an eq in a mixer shouldn't happen unless it's an 'effect' (dropping the bass out of a track for example).

To be honest, I think half the DJ's should have their eq knobs ripped off the mixer and be forced to use EQ kills only.


As to the problem originally stated... compression helps, but it's not a permanent solution.


Personally, I think it should work like this:

If you crank up your gains and damaged equipment - you pay to fix it.

If they have to come into your booth and tell you you're distorting - you should be fined.

And if the venue has an underpowered PA system a smart DJ would stop playing there...


A couple weeks of this and DJ's would make it a point to learn about properly handling gain structure and EQ'ing... And venues would start properly sizing (or oversizing) PA systems because 'good' DJ's wouldn't play there...
Jeffhtg 12:42 AM - 4 December, 2008
The reality of the situation is that there is top touring DJs out there that do this.. I certainly am not going to go tell one of these people how to do their job - as it's not my place. In my OP I stated that I knew it was the DJs fault - but honestly this isnt a one DJ problem, or a one venue problem.

One problem is (pehaps I just don't know how to do it) A "global" adjustment to channel gain. (when you load another track the knob settings change)
The other problem as stated is the linking
I challenge software developers to fix this as they CAN.

You cannot fix distortion with compression, Garbage in = Garbage out.
Audio1 12:58 AM - 4 December, 2008
Quote:
Quote:
If you have good quality files, you shouldn't have to use your mixer's EQs - that's if the main system is EQ'd correctly. I usually leave my mixer all flat and ONLY will tweak songs that I know were mastered improperly, or whatever.


Any more than 3dB on an eq in a mixer shouldn't happen unless it's an 'effect' (dropping the bass out of a track for example).

To be honest, I think half the DJ's should have their eq knobs ripped off the mixer and be forced to use EQ kills only.
This is what I meant with hiphop DJ's around here not knowing how to EQ. I personally come from a big Electronica background where everything gets EQ'd, Im the same about my hiphop, I bring a track in, Bass down, swap basses so the new bass overtakes the last tracks bass and make things fluid. Most people just slam shit. Its ridiculous.
famethrowa 2:14 AM - 4 December, 2008
Quote:
This is what I meant with hiphop DJ's around here not knowing how to EQ. I personally come from a big Electronica background where everything gets EQ'd, Im the same about my hiphop, I bring a track in, Bass down, swap basses so the new bass overtakes the last tracks bass and make things fluid. Most people just slam shit. Its ridiculous.


There's ANOTHER way to mix besides that?! ;)

(not an electronica/house head by any means, but that's how I taught myself too)

It's weird, I'm working in a place now where the PA is so flat no matter how I EQ the console, I HAVE to run my vestax 05 at about 2:00 on the treble on both channels. I was nervous as hell the first couple weeks turning it past noon, but my girlfriend/sound quality screener insisted. heh.
Audio1 2:47 AM - 4 December, 2008
word... Always depends on the place you play at...
Dj Shamann 3:40 AM - 4 December, 2008
Quote:
If you have good quality files, you shouldn't have to use your mixer's EQs - that's if the main system is EQ'd correctly. I usually leave my mixer all flat and ONLY will tweak songs that I know were mastered improperly, or whatever.


Same, I leave everything flat while the track is in it's main play stage with the only exception being cutting freq's during a mix. If I know a track is going to sound too inconsistent with the rest of the play, then I might EQ accordingly but as soon as that track is done it's back to it's set position.

It's funny because I sometimes run into the opposite situation that the OP is dealing with. After all these years of smashing my ears in with club music I tend to ease back a bit on my levels, but I have promoters/managers etc saying "dude, turn it up...pump that shit" and I'll give it a bit and two minutes later they're back with the same request. I've pretended to up the volume at times, or I'll drop it back down slowly as they're off doing something else but they always come back. And of course if they've got me pushing it all night my ears close up and then I'm fader creeping the rest of the night anyway because I can't hear what a bag of shit is coming out of the speakers anymore.

That's why I prefer spots that have dedicated sound guys rather than managers with "bigger is better, look at my new speakers" syndrome. But sometimes you get soundguys who are just as bad, don't care or are completely deaf anyway so you're back in the same boat.


There are too many variables out there as far as gear combo so honestly I don't see a solution other than education, but in today's insta-dj world good luck with that!
Dj Shamann 3:57 AM - 4 December, 2008
Quote:
A "global" adjustment to channel gain. (when you load another track the knob settings change)


That wouldn't really work either (as far as a solid fix). We have something similar in Scratch Live called Auto Gain that does a decent job of keeping all your levels in range, but it's really no different than a normalizer. You're going to have different dynamics in every song you come across, if they were all mixed and mastered the same way then yeah, but you've got some pop music crushed and slammed to the roof in some situations and others with a little bit more dynamic that peak out at the same level but will sound nowhere near as loud since it's not the same constant (I assume we're all familiar with the physics of it all so I'll stop there).

And this is where fader creep can come in as well as far as Djing is concerned. You're playing at your decent and steady level all night, gain knobs set (I use a TTM 54 and set everything at 12, from gains to EQ) and then in comes that song that's a few DB quieter, but since autogain is on you have to give it a little more on the fader, then you're already starting to play with that setting, more weaker tracks and you've hit the top of the rail so you start reaching for the gain knob, and so on and so on.

It's a good guide system, but no solution. Especially for the less experienced and especially since every venue is different and those of us who float around never know what we're going to walk into as far as a booth is setup wise and how the gear will respond. Many factors to consider
sixxx 7:40 AM - 4 December, 2008
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If you have good quality files, you shouldn't have to use your mixer's EQs - that's if the main system is EQ'd correctly. I usually leave my mixer all flat and ONLY will tweak songs that I know were mastered improperly, or whatever.


Any more than 3dB on an eq in a mixer shouldn't happen unless it's an 'effect' (dropping the bass out of a track for example).

To be honest, I think half the DJ's should have their eq knobs ripped off the mixer and be forced to use EQ kills only.
This is what I meant with hiphop DJ's around here not knowing how to EQ. I personally come from a big Electronica background where everything gets EQ'd, Im the same about my hiphop, I bring a track in, Bass down, swap basses so the new bass overtakes the last tracks bass and make things fluid. Most people just slam shit. Its ridiculous.


Yup. I will mess with the bass of either track if they're overpowering each other but for the most part, if you mix with your channel faders, you don't have to cut the bass. I'm a hip hop DJ and I scratch, but I mix my channel faders most of the time, when I'm not scratching a track in after say, an instrumental.
Caramac 10:02 AM - 4 December, 2008
Interesting discussion. The problem I have noticed at alot of venues is the system isn't loud enough for the club or is set up incorrectly. You have a lot of places that have really nice sound for warming up but as soon as you have a room full of people the sound of the music is competing against the sound of the crowd.

Where possible. I get the sound guy to turn the sound up full and I'll keep it low on my mixer because you can mix alot better when each track has it's own head room.

But to do that you have to explain why and what you are doing. I've met sound guys that turn you mixer into the red and leave the house system low not understanding that the mixer is distorting the sound. Usually in this instance the sound guy doesn't know how hip hop sounds and doesn't usually care.

The other issue I've come across is that some sound guys in fact a lot of sound guys turn up and set everything based on an empty room and then can't be found when the room is full and shit needs turning up or readjusting.
Caramac 10:04 AM - 4 December, 2008
On a slightly related note. The surprising thing I've come across is the amount of djs don't know how to treat equipment in general. I was playing with some big named djs the other day and one of them was closing and as soon as he was done he flicks the power switch off on the mixer and you hear this massive pop. I was like what the fuck are you doing you'll blow a speaker like that and he didn't believe me. It took about 5 other djs to explain to him that you can seriously fuck up a sound system doing that.
sixxx 10:38 AM - 4 December, 2008
Well, that's better than what some dj's like to do after their gig... like crash their plane.

Zing!
DVDjHardy 1:22 PM - 4 December, 2008
Quote:
The other issue I've come across is that some sound guys in fact a lot of sound guys turn up and set everything based on an empty room and then can't be found when the room is full and shit needs turning up or readjusting.


This is so true at my spot. Some shit is going down tonight if he's not in the lighting/sound booth when the dance floor is full.
Caramac 2:15 PM - 4 December, 2008
Quote:
Well, that's better than what some dj's like to do after their gig... like crash their plane.

Zing!


*wonders which direction to look in*
DJMark 2:29 PM - 4 December, 2008
My least favorite thing about SSL is the "Master Gain" knob, because it invites DJ's to turn it up and therefore cause massive clipping on every song they play.

I'd be really happy to see that removed from the software, or changed so that the current 12:00 unity-gain position is as high as it can go.
imperialenforcer 3:46 PM - 4 December, 2008
Yeah, I have booked some fairly large name DJs and not know how gain works. One problem is that a lot of music today is being compressed beyond belief.
One thing that helps is that I have a little light that turns on in the booth when the DJ starts to clip.
Also, I give the DJ a speech that goes along these lines, though in a nicer tone: If you want it loud you don't need the track volume to be all the way to eleven. Gain very rarely needs to be past 12 o'clock (I know some vinyl is pressed really quietly, but if you are using vinyl and playing house you have some clue how to work this stuff). Turn up the booth if you want it to be louder. There is another guy on the floor that will keep watch of the master volume don't touch that damn knob! It is loud as hell on the floor and the tech has a better idea of what it the volume is like on the floor than you have in the booth. DO NOT TURN UP THE BASS PASS 0dB! Your song either has bass or not. You will suck up the headroom on the song and will sound like crap. That master out meter with the led thingy.... when it hits red turn it down!
It's not that I'm an really OCD or strive for the "perfect sound" about the whole situation. The problem is when you decide to crank up the bass and gain for a poorly recorded/older track and blow out my subs....
Jeffhtg 6:50 PM - 4 December, 2008
See there we go! Petition for a patch1?
Audio1 7:22 PM - 4 December, 2008
Quote:
Yeah, I have booked some fairly large name DJs and not know how gain works. One problem is that a lot of music today is being compressed beyond belief.
One thing that helps is that I have a little light that turns on in the booth when the DJ starts to clip.
Also, I give the DJ a speech that goes along these lines, though in a nicer tone: If you want it loud you don't need the track volume to be all the way to eleven. Gain very rarely needs to be past 12 o'clock (I know some vinyl is pressed really quietly, but if you are using vinyl and playing house you have some clue how to work this stuff). Turn up the booth if you want it to be louder. There is another guy on the floor that will keep watch of the master volume don't touch that damn knob! It is loud as hell on the floor and the tech has a better idea of what it the volume is like on the floor than you have in the booth. DO NOT TURN UP THE BASS PASS 0dB! Your song either has bass or not. You will suck up the headroom on the song and will sound like crap. That master out meter with the led thingy.... when it hits red turn it down!
It's not that I'm an really OCD or strive for the "perfect sound" about the whole situation. The problem is when you decide to crank up the bass and gain for a poorly recorded/older track and blow out my subs....
You are so on point homie. At the room I play at every Saturday, Its got an MP44 Rane and a device above it (dont ask me the name I dont know), but it will go into red when you start to clip and I've been informed that when it hits red, It will drop the db by -3, then -6 and so forth til the sound is brought within the limits. It works well... I tend to use both the volume faders to tailor the sound as well as EQ's. The Gains I usually leave at the 9 o'clock position for this particular system and I always tell my guests, dont go past 12 o'clock on gains unless necessary. Its funny, Security will be like turn it up. I leave the master at 8, giving me that room til 10 if needed. around 8, the LED's are hitting orange but not red. The system there isnt the very best but not the worst. Im just trying to salvage my ears and the ears of my crowd.

You should heard the DJ's in the other rooms. ZOIKZ!!! Turn your highs down, you drunk bitch (referring to some hoe bag slut house DJ who plays a track and likes teasing her other tracks at full blast, overtaking the system). LOL
Culprit 7:53 PM - 4 December, 2008
hmm, wouldnt you just use a compressor or limiter? not that this will solve your problems but it should at least protect your equipment.
djchrischip 7:58 PM - 4 December, 2008
at one club i worked at they had a really good system that then used both a dbx and a couple other limiters that basically limited i could literally if i wanted to crank the shit out of it like really redline everything and well their system wouldn't blow just sound like crap. What i do when i get to a venue set master at no more than half, Put channel faders up all the way, then crank the bass to about 3 or 4 o' clock... make sure with that it just touches the light before clipping like say whatever that + 2 db os or something like that.

that way at no part in my set do i mess up anything by sounding like shit.
bassµnkie 8:17 PM - 4 December, 2008
"At my main venue I DJ at, We have a monitor that tells us when we are clipping and when we do, It drops the main -6 until we correct the issue. Imma be real here, Hella DJ's dont know how to properly EQ music. I can remember one time when DJ CQ came up from Socal to DJ at Mission Rock, He was the only DJ to use EQ's and the Soundguy was bugging out that he was EQing his tracks, while the other swaggerjacker DJ's were just pushing all the EQ's at their highest limits with no regard. More DJ's need to know how to use em, for reals."

Ok, so step two here for me would be...Where can I find information about proper eqing? I don't wanna blow anyones speakers, my own included. Is there a book somewhere? online tutorial? school in chicago (class? Instructor?)
Culprit 8:23 PM - 4 December, 2008
i was always told 12 oclock makes for a great setup.. all knobs half way for your eq's and dont go past 12 on your master, been working for me just fine so far. Just keep your knobs at 12, and try using serato's autogain or mp3gain and set it either at 92 or 95. If a file sounds bad try replacing it or just avoiding it.
Culprit 8:23 PM - 4 December, 2008
plus, if the sound guy hears your knobs are at 12 o'clock and will stay that way, you just made a new friend.
Jeffhtg 11:29 PM - 4 December, 2008
There are many tricks to the trade.. I personally don't go into system detail unless you are a client of mine and paying me to do so. The problem is not in blowing stuff.. its in the lack of quality going into systems. I'm talking about professional nightclubs with top tier talent - who also believe it or not - bring in other djs on a nightly basis :) ...

'Back in the day' when Rane MP-24's were king; there was no way for a DJ to create distortion at the mixer. There were no gain knobs, no EQ knobs, and short of doubling up channels, using the "double up xfader" trick, and maxing out the output eq (which almost every DJ did) you could STILL get a good clean signal at the output of the mixer. This is not the case with the modern day problems - and the DJs (for the most part) are not being responsible on their end.

This isn't a discussion of setting up systems, how to use limiters, or SPL alarms. It's a complaint about the SOURCE of the audio.
Dj onyx 1:23 PM - 5 December, 2008
limiter and compress that mofo. Once the compressor kicks in it will sound different than the uncompressed signal.
DJ_PHAZE 4:06 PM - 5 December, 2008
Quote:
Quote:

Quote:

If you have good quality files, you shouldn't have to use your mixer's EQs - that's if the main system is EQ'd correctly. I usually leave my mixer all flat and ONLY will tweak songs that I know were mastered improperly, or whatever.



Any more than 3dB on an eq in a mixer shouldn't happen unless it's an 'effect' (dropping the bass out of a track for example).

To be honest, I think half the DJ's should have their eq knobs ripped off the mixer and be forced to use EQ kills only.

This is what I meant with hiphop DJ's around here not knowing how to EQ. I personally come from a big Electronica background where everything gets EQ'd, Im the same about my hiphop, I bring a track in, Bass down, swap basses so the new bass overtakes the last tracks bass and make things fluid. Most people just slam shit. Its ridiculous.


It truly is about education on the one hand and experience. Nothing is worst than a scratch that is improperly eq'd, blends that are muddy and crappy files. I have a sound guy background to compliment my DJ resume'. I find that many venues in my area skimp on getting the right equipment for the size of the venue. Add to that the fact that if your system is preset for let's say a Rock programming vs. a Hip-Hip, the equalization is slightly different. So driveracks should be tweeked for the appropriate programming.

Finally, wavies should be shipped to remote island for banishment or until they learn the Sacred code of the DJ.
rebelmix 4:36 PM - 5 December, 2008
a couple thoughts to add to this:

- Aphex 720 - nothing will keep your output gain in line like this thing

- mixers w/ individual pre-fade metering on each channel, or at least peak/clip lights

- as someone else mentioned, mixer eqs that are mostly cut, with only a moderate amount of boost
DJ Kwai 5:09 PM - 5 December, 2008
One solution I've seen from some venues out here in Hollywood, is for the club sound guy to actually put down a sticker across the top of the mixer that says: "DON'T CLIP! NO PLAYING IN THE RED!" Then there were marks on the channel gains at levels the sound guy doenst want you to go beyond or else it'll blow up the sound system.

If the DJ you're hiring at the club is anywhere near competent and knows what he's doing, a simple conversation to remind the guy to not DJ in the Red is more than enough.

If all else fails, tell the sound guy to manually turn down it down at the amp/board mixer. Most DJs dont even know how to mess with the rack mounts and sound equipment beyond the mixer/turntable set up.
MusicMeister 6:38 PM - 5 December, 2008
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You cannot fix distortion with compression, Garbage in = Garbage out.


Correct, but you can use a compressor/limiter to prevent the good from becoming REALLY bad.


Consider doing live sound with the worst possible scenario - karaoke.

Drunken buffoon comes on stage, screams in mic. You can overdrive the mic element and get distortion - there is nothing you can do about it other than get the idiot off the mic. But if he screams and you have a limiter it will keep the signal at a level with 'normal' levels no matter how loud he gets. The signal will continue to get louder coming into the board, but from the insert point on, the signal level will be within 'normal' levels which protects the remainder of the signal chain.

If you wanted to do something like this on a mixer, you'd have to use compression/limiting on each of the signal channels and the output channel.
Jeffhtg 11:28 PM - 5 December, 2008
Once again I am a pro audio user - I am very familiar with how to limit a system.. that is NOT the problem. The issue is the SOFTWARES ability to put bad input into a dj mixer.
dirtbag filthy 12:05 AM - 6 December, 2008
i think what he is trying to say is scratch live sounds like shit
Dj.Mojo 1:50 AM - 6 December, 2008
Quote:
Once again I am a pro audio user - I am very familiar with how to limit a system.. that is NOT the problem. The issue is the SOFTWARES ability to put bad input into a dj mixer.

who is so stupid to increase the master volume of serato? Even with your build in soundcard of your laptop you will notice the music sounds like...ähmmm... crap!
Jeffhtg 6:59 PM - 6 December, 2008
Quote:
Quote:
Once again I am a pro audio user - I am very familiar with how to limit a system.. that is NOT the problem. The issue is the SOFTWARES ability to put bad input into a dj mixer.

who is so stupid to increase the master volume of serato? Even with your build in soundcard of your laptop you will notice the music sounds like...ähmmm... crap!


I could probably throw at least 5 of the top 25 electronic djs under the buss on that one.. and practically every Dirty South act I've ever worked with.. A good majority of Hip Hop guys too.
DJMark 1:23 AM - 8 December, 2008
I've also seen a lot of DJ's running the master volume in SSL at around 1:00, including some who I would have expected to know better.

That of course guarantees any track mastered to 0dbFS will be heavily clipped when it comes out of SSL.

Like I wrote in a different thread recently, a small amount of digital clipping on otherwise lightly-processed music (for example, older songs that were less heavily-compressed than typical current stuff) can be harmless enough, but adding more clipping on top of music that has already been limited/clipped in mastering will sound like complete crap.

I've never really understood why the master volume control is in SSL in the first place...especially since there's already gain-controls on the individual decks.
pdm2000 2:18 AM - 8 December, 2008
I don't use the SSL channel or master gains, everything stays at 12:00. And I don't use the auto-gain either. That way, I figure neither the SSL software or the Rane hardware can possibly clip the signal before it reaches the mixer. (Whether the actual track contains a bit of digital clipping is another matter.)

I use the input gain knobs on the Rane MP44, which has input clip indicators to guarantee a clean signal. Those can go anywhere from around 11:00 for a subjectively "loud" track (like OutKast - Hey Ya) up to about 2-3:00 for the softest tracks. I agree, no need for Master level control in SSL, the potential for abuse outweighs the benefits.

On the output side, that Aphex Dominator is a good piece of gear, I get decent results with the dbx DriveRack 260. No blown drivers in 2 years.
bumps 3:43 AM - 8 December, 2008
Quote:
limiter and compress that mofo. Once the compressor kicks in it will sound different than the uncompressed signal.
And you know what happens when the limiters clamp down and squash the music completely? You have a DJ who pushes the mixer even more, in some clubs you might even see a mixers input and master volume completely maxed. So, now the limiter is protecting, the DJ drives the mixer into PURE and TOTAL dstortion, and that I what the dancefloor hears, DISTORTION GALORE.

And, afdter the night, or the next day, the club finds out they have blown drivers in spite of their protection devices, as SEVERELY DISTORTED signal BLOWS speakers, just as overdriving them does, ESPECIALLY compression drivers and tweeters.

We could go on and on, but, there is another sde of the coin as well. That side is the sad fact that MANY clubs have systems that are INADEQUTE for the job they are doing. First we have he clubs with mediocre sound gear, because the owner or owners are just too cheap to invest in a proper system. Or there are the clubs that have GOOD gear, but NOT enough of it to properly cover the area they have to, especially when filled to capacity. GREAT sound systems are EXHORBITANTLY expensive, and many clubs system totally lack either quality, or system size, and/or BOTH!
bumps 3:57 AM - 8 December, 2008
Then we have clubs with the DJ booths located UPSTAIRS in the OYGEN TENT AREA, or booths BEHIND the sound system, and maybe glassed in to ensure DJ privacy, and space.

All well and good, right?

BUT what about the DJ,s ability to actually hear exactly what the people on the dancefloor hear? Because behind speakers you can't hear what they hear, and upstairs in the Stratosphear you don't either! You can have all the level markings, and SPL metering, and output monitoring you like, BUT, IMO, A DJ NEEDS TO HEAR WHAT HIS AUDIENCE HEARS! Thats critical to ensuring proper system levels. Simply put, we will turn down what hurts our ears, but we don't hear meters and feel meters!

Then, we can address the issues of sound techs who are educated and skilled at system setup, operation, and technical problems, BUT, what type of sound background are these techs from? Live sound, nightclub sound, PA?

I DO mean to say that while a tech may be VERY skilled at live sound, unfortunately, live sound is NOT what a club is supposed to sound like! And many a DJ gets caught up in trying to compensate for something a system isn't giving them, or IS doing!
sixxx 4:40 AM - 8 December, 2008
I don't think is 100% necessary for a dj to hear what the audience hears. If the dj booth has a nice monitor set up AND the main system is already where it needs to be as far as levels, etc., then the dj could just do his thing in the booth. Besides, you know you cannot mix right just from monitoring the main system as it may be delayed and, as you explained, out of reach.
djchrischip 5:30 AM - 8 December, 2008
look we are all supposed to be pros and we are supposed to know red= really bad orange= keep high out for peaks... like come on there isn't a dj a live who didnt start off practicing on less than say top top of the line pro gear. I started on jbl sf 15's. And i did parties of 150 people with them and u know what i even lightly clipped at times my crown xls402 but to this day they still havent blown and i have done alot of parties with them still....

My yorkvilles the same thing...

I simply keep my 57 at 12 o clock master and adjust gains to stay in the orange red= BAD il never blow out ish unless i get stupid...as for clubs with huge sound systems or whatever else... I have done a place called roller jam it has one of those out of the way booths and well even though there were like 1000+ little kids i still made sure in the orange...

I also with a 2 sub 2 top system dj'ed an after-prom with 1200 kids... Still didn't blow anything, thankfully... remember in the red bad...

It isn't a problem about eq'ing or compression or driveracks and limiters but respect...

if this crap was yours would u like to see it get blown no so dont fuck up a clubs shit...

Maybe the true test is if u have djs coming to ur club sign a contract saying they are responsible 4 any damages...

Just a thought.
sixxx 5:43 AM - 8 December, 2008
If I were a DJ coming to a club as a guest DJ, I would never sign a paper that says responsible for "any" damages. I'd made sure it was more specific than that. lol
djchrischip 5:49 AM - 8 December, 2008
yah thats true but im mad... Pure had an ill set up and now the knobs on the mixer are practically all off, the tts are shot etc... oh and the dnd 9000 was jacked too

So when i dj'ed there internal mode lololol besides i was just opening and closing...
Lamour's (old mystic lounge) same thing... the grounds on the tts were ripped out...

who does that?
DJMark 5:53 AM - 8 December, 2008
Quote:
Maybe the true test is if u have djs coming to ur club sign a contract saying they are responsible 4 any damages...


As a DJ, I'd never sign any such thing (being held responsible for "damage" to a system in an unknown state of upkeep would be a liability I'd be unwilling to assume).

And from the venue's point of view, enforcing any such provision would be problematic...and probably not worth the possible legal expenses to enforce.

The real problems boil down to a lack of standards. Professional standards on the part of many DJ's who (unless told otherwise) just crank everything up all the way. Quality standards on the part of many venue operators who don't budget adequately for their audio system, and for the necessary oversight/maintenance of the audio system.

Add in an increasing trend of various "sound police" entities in many areas responding to neighbor-complaints targetted at bars/clubs (this has been a major problem here in San Francisco the last few years), requiring sound systems to be limited at lower-than-desirable levels (from the viewpoint of DJ's/dancers), and you have a further inducement for many DJ's to make every effort to increase gain however/wherever possible.
bumps 6:10 AM - 8 December, 2008
Quote:
I don't think is 100% necessary for a dj to hear what the audience hears. If the dj booth has a nice monitor set up AND the main system is already where it needs to be as far as levels, etc., then the dj could just do his thing in the booth. Besides, you know you cannot mix right just from monitoring the main system as it may be delayed and, as you explained, out of reach.
WRONG!How did the guys do it at studio54 in 1978? The booth was right off the side of the floor, no MONITORS, AND THEY MIXED perfect, AND ON THORENS TD-125,S NO LESS!

Problem when a DJ doesnt har the floor system is you DO NOT KNOW whgere the exact sweet spot is, and OU DO NOT hear what he people on the floor hear, and NO METER is the same as HEARING it is!

Delay and echo is ONLY a problem IF the room is a HUGE theater, with a nasty flutter or slap echo!

BUT, Ill stand by what I say, MOST clubs have either too little a system, made up of JUNK PA gear, or some have some quality gear, but not enough to properly cover their rooms dancefloor.
sixxx 6:18 AM - 8 December, 2008
I tell you how it can be done... If you're a good enough DJ, you can mix with your headphones.

Quote:
Delay and echo is ONLY a problem IF the room is a HUGE theater, with a nasty flutter or slap echo!



Oh yeah... I've been to enough clubs that have this problem because their system wasn't designed right.
sixxx 6:20 AM - 8 December, 2008
Quote:
Problem when a DJ doesnt har the floor system is you DO NOT KNOW whgere the exact sweet spot is, and OU DO NOT hear what he people on the floor hear, and NO METER is the same as HEARING it is!


You DO NOT have to know what the system sweet spot is on the dance floor. If the system is already set up at optimum level, and you know what you're doing, you do not need to go past that level. So, don't clip and you'll be fine. So yeah, meters DO help... otherwise, no mixers would have any meters. No amps with have meters.
DJMark 6:21 AM - 8 December, 2008
Quote:
Quote:
I don't think is 100% necessary for a dj to hear what the audience hears. If the dj booth has a nice monitor set up AND the main system is already where it needs to be as far as levels, etc., then the dj could just do his thing in the booth. Besides, you know you cannot mix right just from monitoring the main system as it may be delayed and, as you explained, out of reach.
WRONG!How did the guys do it at studio54 in 1978? The booth was right off the side of the floor, no MONITORS, AND THEY MIXED perfect, AND ON THORENS TD-125,S NO LESS!


I'd love it if every place was set up with the DJ booth right in the soundfield of the main dancefloor. Unfortunately, it's not always possible or practical.

Larry Levan's booth wasn't set up that way, but he managed... :-).
sixxx 6:22 AM - 8 December, 2008
Btw, unless your DJ booth is set up in the middle of the dance floor, I don't think you'll be able to hear any sweet spots. lol
bumps 6:23 AM - 8 December, 2008
Quote:
I tell you how it can be done... If you're a good enough DJ, you can mix with your headphones.

Quote:
Delay and echo is ONLY a problem IF the room is a HUGE theater, with a nasty flutter or slap echo!



Oh yeah... I've been to enough clubs that have this problem because their system wasn't designed right.
Yes, u can mix in your headphone, and technically your mix will be perfectly beatmatched and together, BUT, you still don't know the exact sweet spot for each recording, as you would IF you hear exactly what the dancefloor hears! We all agree each recording is different, and a smidgen of raising or lowering the volume, tone controls, or other booth controls affect big time?

BIG theater type rooms can have the finest of systems, if the room has a slap echo, and the ROOM isnt acoustically treated for this, NO SOUND SYSTEM WILL SOUND CORRECT IN THAT ROOM!
sixxx 6:25 AM - 8 December, 2008
Quote:
as you would IF you hear exactly what the dancefloor hears!


We keep going to this....


Listen, most clubs I've been to will have their mid's and high's pointing to the dancefloor area... and the DJ booth may not be anywhere near that so the DJ hears mostly bass. No matter what, you need a monitor.
bumps 6:29 AM - 8 December, 2008
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't think is 100% necessary for a dj to hear what the audience hears. If the dj booth has a nice monitor set up AND the main system is already where it needs to be as far as levels, etc., then the dj could just do his thing in the booth. Besides, you know you cannot mix right just from monitoring the main system as it may be delayed and, as you explained, out of reach.
WRONG!How did the guys do it at studio54 in 1978? The booth was right off the side of the floor, no MONITORS, AND THEY MIXED perfect, AND ON THORENS TD-125,S NO LESS!


I'd love it if every place was set up with the DJ booth right in the soundfield of the main dancefloor. Unfortunately, it's not always possible or practical.

Larry Levan's booth wasn't set up that way, but he managed... :-).
Were you eve at the Garage?

Larry could hear the system, he even had a spot he could stepout onto, overlooking the floor, out in the open.

BUT, the speaker stacks were 15ft tall, and the booth was NOT high up either.

However, that was a completely different era, when ONE DJ did an entire night, and Larry knew the room, the system, and had a knack for using it IN THAT room.

Then speaker stacks were as tall as where the booth was, and in Larry,s guest area, YES, his booth had a guest lounge, no glass, you could look over the rail right at eye level with the compression drivers on the JBL 2395 and 2397 horns, they were Guass drivers HF-4000 drivers.

But, larry could hear his system, and wasnt secluded from it!
bumps 6:30 AM - 8 December, 2008
Quote:
Quote:
as you would IF you hear exactly what the dancefloor hears!


We keep going to this....


Listen, most clubs I've been to will have their mid's and high's pointing to the dancefloor area... and the DJ booth may not be anywhere near that so the DJ hears mostly bass. No matter what, you need a monitor.
Are you in the NY area?
DJMark 6:31 AM - 8 December, 2008
Quote:
I tell you how it can be done... If you're a good enough DJ, you can mix with your headphones.

Quote:
Delay and echo is ONLY a problem IF the room is a HUGE theater, with a nasty flutter or slap echo!



Oh yeah... I've been to enough clubs that have this problem because their system wasn't designed right.


That's more likely to be a problem with the room acoustics, which is something very often sorely-neglected in bars/clubs. Correcting the acoustics (dampening echoes, among other things) should be the *first* step in designing a good sound system for a venue.

Quote:
So yeah, meters DO help... otherwise, no mixers would have any meters. No amps with have meters.


That was actually the norm 20-30 years ago. The Bozak and Urei mixers had no metering at all. The cheaper mixers of that era typically had useless little "VU meters".

bumps, by any chance are you also on the Wave Records tech forum?
bumps 6:31 AM - 8 December, 2008
No the horns were NOT pointed at Larrys booth, they were aimed at the danceloor!
bumps 6:33 AM - 8 December, 2008
Quote:
Quote:
I tell you how it can be done... If you're a good enough DJ, you can mix with your headphones.

Quote:
Delay and echo is ONLY a problem IF the room is a HUGE theater, with a nasty flutter or slap echo!



Oh yeah... I've been to enough clubs that have this problem because their system wasn't designed right.
HEHE! Very good, mark!

So, when Im done doing my system upgrades, you want to come check out an anaolg monster, like NOTHING you have ever played on?

The system will prove you wrong, NOT ME!

That's more likely to be a problem with the room acoustics, which is something very often sorely-neglected in bars/clubs. Correcting the acoustics (dampening echoes, among other things) should be the *first* step in designing a good sound system for a venue.

Quote:
So yeah, meters DO help... otherwise, no mixers would have any meters. No amps with have meters.


That was actually the norm 20-30 years ago. The Bozak and Urei mixers had no metering at all. The cheaper mixers of that era typically had useless little "VU meters".

bumps, by any chance are you also on the Wave Records tech forum?
sixxx 6:34 AM - 8 December, 2008
Oh yeah... VU meters... nice. lol


and No. I'm in California.
bumps 6:37 AM - 8 December, 2008
The urei, and Bozak, are still great sounding mixers, and can sound better than most avail;able mixers made today!

Granted, they don't have the features, like kills, and split cue, but, sonically, they were GOOD!
bumps 6:38 AM - 8 December, 2008
Quote:
Oh yeah... VU meters... nice. lol


and No. I'm in California.
There IS this place in NY, the sound in there.....
DJMark 6:42 AM - 8 December, 2008
LOL bumps, when are you *not* doing system-upgrades?

If I ever make it to NYC again, your bumper-cars are definitely on my list of things to check out, after all I've read about your sound system for all these years.

Never went to the Garage...interesting to read the additional detail there. I've seen pictures where it looks pretty much like the booth is quite separated from the dancefloor.
bumps 6:54 AM - 8 December, 2008
It was rigfht at the edge of the dancefloor, ONLY 12ft up, though!

There was a an area, like a tiny balcony, larry could step out onto, hear the system, and look at the crowd below.

But, the speaker stacks were as tall as the booth!

When am I NOT doing system upgrades? In the summer when Im open, thats when! LOL.

Im installing new crowns this winter, the Macro Tech I series.

Tell ya this, though, I fell head over heels in love with Serato!
sixxx 1:30 PM - 8 December, 2008
When are you and Serato having a baby then? :P
bumps 4:09 PM - 8 December, 2008
Quote:
When are you and Serato having a baby then? :P
Our baby is due in January, we plan to name it Traktor! LOL.
mister_wilson 7:27 AM - 9 December, 2008
I think if the deejay is new at the spot and wants to be invited back he is going to respect what you tell him.

In the defense of some deejays, I know a lot of deejays who are pretty good but have old shitty mixers with RCA outputs that they still practice with and use for mobile gigs. They always have the noise floor hum to overcome so they seem to compenstate by turning up the channel gain as loud as they can until "they perceive" distortion. Everybody's ears are different.

They don't probably understand that a well designed system with a low noise floor can be operated completely in the green and yellows, because they don't have any experience with that.

I set my 57 master around 9 and my channel gains at about 11, when i sound check. The channel gains are probably only going to move up from there throughout the night, when I play the ocasionaly quiet song. I try to stay out of the red, but some songs are eq'ed a little funny, and I don't always have time to try to eq out a loud snare, because my first goal is get my pitch slider adjusted and then to get that perceived loudness about the same.

Eventually though, I try to remember which songs gave me trouble and re-eq the master file in Audacity so I don't have to worry when I play it later. But I will be honest, compared to most deejays I have worked with, I have OCD when it comes to these kinds of things. I think most deejays just go by intuition.
Trackfeen 8:17 AM - 9 December, 2008
I understand how you feel...

Last year new years eve party... guest Dj gets on after a friend of mine....Clips the amps 15 mins into her set... No music for 10Mins (an eternity dj time)wouldn't have been an issue except that she was told numerous times to watch her levels....funniest thing i have ever seen...

Moving on, a lot of what you guys are talking about has to do with the Deejays themselves....

Hearing loss is common within the music community. What tends to happen is when you are playing a set. If your monitors are too loud or headphones are too loud... Your ear starts to build a resistance to the sound.. So to the naked ear a lot of dj think the sound is too low.. when in reality it hasn't changed...

www.hearnet.com

There is a lot more information at the link above... Protect your investment!!

"now you know.... and knowing is half the battle..."

This feels like a PSA, so i had to say it... lol
DJ LTIZZZLE 10:54 AM - 9 December, 2008
I have a microwave here on camp and his music is just loud for no damn reason. I chalk it up to like mentioned before "bad files/lime_wire" and cheap mixers/tables. I have 57 and i never have to jack the volume up on my setup. It's also pleasant to your listeners ears if you know how to Eq and mix properly. I agree totally. Besides if DJ's was held accountable for damage to a system.. They would probably work a little harder at not clipping..
Milesy303 2:20 PM - 9 December, 2008
There will always be DJs who will hit the red constantly, it doesnt matter if its software or hardware. Whether it be a software gain, the channel gain pot or the channel fader people will always crank them up - but we need the gain - this cant be taken away either on software or hardware. The ethos should be education of whoever is playing, and if they dont listen then formal repremand.

A compressor running on limiter mode (1:1 ratio) protecting both the booth out and the master out should will at least protect the club sound system. The mixer doesn't care the sound is clipping, and it might sound terrible, but the club will be safe in the knowledge that their soundsystem is safe. Sound jock sets the levels on the limiters, and puts them away from the booth or in a locked cabinet. In my last residancy thats the way it was, and if the sound jock was in he would say to the DJs that all they were doing is clipping their music, they wont get a louder sound out it. A lot of DJs are unaware of the fact that the human ear has inbuilt limiting within it, and when sound reaches a certain threshhold it will be reduced, which of course gives the situation where DJs will crank more and more as the night goes on. I have told people before who have been doing that to go outside for 5 minutes and come back in and see the difference.
DJ LTIZZZLE 2:28 PM - 9 December, 2008
^^good point
Milesy303 2:33 PM - 9 December, 2008
sorry that was supposed to say 10:1 ratio.
Milesy303 2:39 PM - 9 December, 2008
Quote:
Once again I am a pro audio user - I am very familiar with how to limit a system.. that is NOT the problem. The issue is the SOFTWARES ability to put bad input into a dj mixer.


Didn't read this sorry.

Thats fair enough, but most people know their limits. If your sound system is protected, and the DJ sounds crap because of his clipping then the manager should be saying "your sound is terrible. sort it out or be replaced". Vinyl is at different levels. People also burn their own CDs which can be at stupid levels as well. Education is the only solution. You can put in safeguards that are going to limit the flexibility of those who actually know what they are doing.