R.I.P.

virtual decks

traktor is geared towards edm djs. effects, 4 decks and supposedly better midi implementation. hopefully the comp. will push ssl to better things for edm djs.

Patiently awaiting 1.9

any word on what they're working on?

I personally wouldn't mind all EDM DJ's jumping to traktor. The program is called Serato SCRATCH Live.... and most EDM DJ's don't really scratch. If you're an EDM DJ and you scratch, you can stay. :P

As an EDM DJ I think it comes down to extra's. The long and the short of it is that the music itself lends it to crazy effects like the beat masher and using 2 virtual decks that we can time sync with our master decks for doing some perdy extreme layering. Also the Audio 8 DJ with those core cables is a simply awesome hardware interface.
From the viewpoint of an EDM DJ the only advantage of Serato over Traktor is a better software interface. I realize that Serato is supposed to be some golden standard but I've yet to see an industrial, ebm/tbm, or goth club that had either pre-installed.

I bought a copy of TS last week in leiu of pro and.... well I am brining my SL1 in to the club tonight. In defense of Serato I still just like it better right now, I'm used to it and have all my setups in it.

It's the Virtual KNOBS.

Scratch Live needs more knobs - we have what - three???? Two gains and a master?

We are losing the battle of knobs and switches....

Ewww, that is ugly but look (14 Knobs on Traktor Scratch - EVEN More on Traktor DJ):

www.sonicwalker.com

Pretty (3 knobs):

scratchlive.net

All about the KNOBS....

Plus more shit so it MUST be better....

: )

Carl Cock is the worlds #7 dj in his house....not in nyc, miami, or vegas

just wait till serato & abelton have their baby..
i bet all those switching to traktor will jump ship!!!

If it's not browsable cover art, I could care less. If it really works and is stable, I am reluctantly switching to TSP solely based on finally being able to have this desperately needed feature and several other DJs I've spoken to recently are planning on jumping the SL ship in favor of TSP's browsable cover art as well (yes, it's that important of a feature). If/when SL decides to wake up and smell the coffee on this, I'll look at coming back. Til then, it's a sad "so long" to a much loved friend.

Carl Cox never jumped ship he was using CDJs and occasionally Ableton... Traktor Scratch Pro has too many features that are needed for (as you call it EDM... i hate the word personally) house techno djs....

4 decks and effects
A better quality sound card
better midi
midi clock data to syncing either ableton or drum machines etc

Who the hell cares. He's not a turntablist.

I'd be shocked if Jazzy Jeff switched. But Carl Penis... I mean, Carl Cox? Bleh.

carl cox is good.

and to be honest alot of people are turning to traktor pro.

im just being honest!

^^i feel you..but im a serato loyalest and ill wait it out a bit..
im really stoked about the partnership between serato & ableton and i know what ever next they put out will be f*ckin incredible. "BUT" i will say if i dont see some progress soon & just alot of talk & no action i mights a getz a steppin..

im just being honest!! too

www.sonicwalker.com

oh my god - tribe called quest- 132 bpm = fail

i messed with traktor.the key lock is way better and the scratch response is tighter.

the only thing i dont like is the layout and song search abilities.

and the fuckin ugly color.
plus non colored & verticle wave forms.

yea i would take that over sound and quality :)

hahaha was that suppose to be a sarcastic remark..lol

Btw, who cares if anyone OTHER THAN YOURSELF switches. It's about time you stop worrying about what other DJ's use.

Woody, you're starting to sound like the girl who's jealous of another girl's dress or make up. lol

On the real, I wouldn't mind trying something new myself. One reason I won't try something else is because I don't know anyone else with another vitual dj program! I'm not gonna throw $500 away on something I don't like. I'm sure I'd stick with serato due to the simplicity of it, but I wouldn't mind feeling out another program. =P

*runs and hides*

I don't mind pre-fader effects such as flanger, etc., but echo must be post fader in my opinion... or is it the other way around? Well what I mean is that I like hitting the echo and turning the CF all the way down to let the echo ride out Echo is the only effect that I think can be impractical to have solely on a program.

Hope this made sense.

Instead of a picture Woody, you should have gave dude some lotion for those ashy elbows...

yes ..unfortunately in europe lots of house/tecnho djs are switching for traktor.
i a a serato addict and still use vinyl (40% vinyl/ 60%serato) (yes i am oldfashion) and everyone is switching gives me this reasons
"4 decks and effects (i dont use effects but 4 decks are usable for accapelas, layers etc)
A better quality sound card
better midi ( this is the point for me..
the setup in clubs it s horrible, using usually 2 cdj pionner and a mixer..
i wish i can arrive with my serato and plug my midi controller and play confortable.
people with traktor are able to do that.. serato hasnt a waveform assignable for scrool/scratch/scrub/search, and hasnt any universal midi controller like maudio/xone/eks/faderfox wich are very usefull. i know you can assign with serato, but you can t assign the waveform.
midi clock data to syncing either ableton or drum machines etc

but.. i am still using serato.. i love the reliaability, stability, the master tempo its perfect.. i just miss the midi controller for some special occasions.

best

you like the master tempo?

j/k right?

yes .. it sounds better than Traktor.. (i ve just tried traktor for 2 hours) .
serato master tempo it s very similar to cdj master tempo.

and i forgot to talk about all playlist organization.and the appearance.. much more flexible than traktor.

and traktor pro it s out next week.:(

im sorry but your wrong about serato keylock.even the moderators understand that they need to fix keylock problems to make it sound better.traktor keylock is much better.

im not a serato or rane basher i feel serato and my 57 are the best investments i have made since i been djing.but serato is a little behind on certain things ( not all ).i respect the serato team.and i know they have there hands full with different projects but serato has fallen behind in some features.and to be honest i rather have keylock updated then have more features added right now.

i trust the team here and i know they have a few things up there sleeves that will be released here in some time.it seems like we have been waiting a little to long.especially when you see what traktor is bringing to the table.

i have nt that idea... will test it as soon as possible.
thanks.
_:)

I'll wait for Serato to come up with something. Reliability and sound quality got me here in the first place.

It means nothing.

DJ software are just another tool. The only people who care about what are DJ's are using are other DJ's.

My peers don't pave my path.

And I'm sure any world DJ in the top 20 could really care what any of us think, shit Carl Cox owns a mansion and in the UK built an addition to it just for his vinyl collection. So I guess he really cares.

sound quality?

Do you mean Serato over Traktor? One Asian made DSP and preamp chip sound like the other Asian made DSP and preamp chip.

Long gone are the days different sounding analog gear.

Everything has just about the same Digital Audio finger print.

Why do you think that mastering studios still use analog preamps and tools.

So you are saying that a soundblaster AD converter sounds the same as an apogee AD converter since they both use asian made chips..haha.

Digital products sound WAAAAAY different from on to the other. Take a listen to a behringer digital mixer compared to the Pioneer DJM-800 and tell me they sound the same.

In that picture it looks like he's thinking....

"Hmmmm, I wonder what this knob does"

im #1 in my trailer park, YO!!!

lol

browsable cover art? If you don't mind me asking, is it THAT hard to see the text on the laptop screen?

a a aaa a auto rrrrrrrrrrrrroll b b. bbb bb itches


That's allllllll you neeeeed

traktor aint really djin'..... Djin' started with turntables, with traktor you don't need turntables cd players nothing just ya laptop and a mixer, thats stupid

that's pretty close minded

that happens here

its not what true dj'n started as. but then again...

neither was using a laptop...

yet i see what he's saying. you eliminate the tables and cds and it seems like not TRUE dj'n or dj'n at all.

but, there ya go

well, we all better hop back on to ONE turntable and a microphone so we can go back to keeping it real.

fuck that, use what you need to, fuck an opinion

Yes, but in this topic, Carl Cox was using it with CD's just like I use Serato with CD's. I guess I'm I don't DJ either since 99% of the time I use CDJ's & Serato.

No, seeing text isn't hard, nor is that the problem. The problem with just having text only is that it is not graphical. Cover art is graphics is and human beings for the most part are graphical creatures. It's how the majority of humans remember things and link things by their associations. A true DVS experience would have browsable cover art since browsing vinyl in crates has been done by looking at the cover/label art for decades by thousands of DJs. Dig? If not, there's an entire thread explaining more on this feature with many DJs advocating for its addition to SL here >> www.scratchlive.net

Apparently NI understands this very basic concept and has decided to capitalize on it.

Unfortunately, Serato has not.

Kudos NI.

Cover art is cool.... BUT, it's better to have the text as you have individual (songs) files being pulled/browsed. You're gonna see the same cover art for say 1 song with 4 versions?

Just saying. I could care less if it's implemented (and working) or not.

Nobody is suggesting getting rid of text (lol). The idea behind all this is that the user would have both cover art AND text (just like TSP has shown) so he/she could choose how they want to search. Best of both worlds. For those who do not need/want cover art, it could just be shut off in the preferences.

I didn't say SSL was getting rid of text either. lol


I don't know how you read that. :)


I just think it's silly to have cover art for all the same stuff. In vinyl, it made sense cause one record held all your songs. But, it's overkill in SSL as all files are individual files. :)

I'm just saying. hahaha

I don't think you're fully understanding the concept sixxx. That's ok, lots of other DJs do and NI apparently does as well with TSP - which is why I'll be switching to them (assuming it works properly and is stable).

Can TSP have cover art with WAV files, otherwise not interested

Dunno yet. Can't wait to find out though. From what I understand, there are alternative methods for adding graphics to .wav/.aif files anyway.

me personally I would be pissed if serato incorporated this feature. It would just clutter the interface.

Guess you didn't read the part about making it a user defeatable feature - because if you did you would know that it's been suggested many times so those who would not benefit from the feature could simply turn it off.

This feature would be cool if it was cover flow like in itunes. Than you can assign a gesture to scroll through it.

Bingo. Now just imagine when MacBook Pros are full touch screen. Then you'll be able to touch, browse, select all your music just like real records in real crates. :::drool:::

Bingo. Now just imagine when MacBook Pros are full touch screen. Then you'll be able to touch, browse, select all your music just like real records in real crates. :::drool:::

Since I switched to Serato over real vinyl, the one thing I do miss the most is seeing the label spin on the turntable. the Cover art would be a close substitute but tagging EVERYTHING with cover art would be a nightmare, plus the art would take up a tiny bit of disk space that could be used for more music.

But the crate browse and cover flick thing in the new traktor pro does look intriguing:

www.mnml.nl

but also takes up too much screen

It shouldn't be a pain to tag all your music with artwork. If you have 20,000 songs, we all know you only play a few hundred. Tag the ones you play the most first.

Bwaaahaaahhaaahaa!!!!!!!! I was thinking the SAME thing!

*dies*

Bingo. I do them one at a time/small batches as I purchase new tracks or take a quick digital pic when digitally archiving vinyl tracks that way it's an easy to manage task.

Mark my words kids, Browsable Cover Art is going to be huge.

Quite honestly, as I keep reading more and more about Traktor Scratch it's making me wanna try it out. The effects sound pretty sick too. But, i already paid a shit load of money to get onto the Video thing, so I dunno if I'm ready to invest into Traktor. But it's tempting!

I understand browsing songs via cover art. Did it for many years and I still do it at home.... but when you're a hip hop DJ and you have an inst, clean, dirty, acap... AND THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME COVER... it isn't as cool as you may think and it's certainly NOTHING like it is with actual vinyl.

Now, if all you have/play in your library are extended intros... then I see how that helps. But, I play a lot of songs off albums.... so it doesn't help me.

The ONLY way it would be the same is if you record your dirty, clean, inst, acap all in one file and use cues for each.

I understand browsing songs via cover art. Did it for many years and I still do it at home.... but when you're a hip hop DJ and you have an inst, clean, dirty, acap... AND THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME COVER... it isn't as cool as you may think and it's certainly NOTHING like it is with actual vinyl.

Now, if all you have/play in your library are extended intros... then I see how that helps. But, I play a lot of songs off albums.... so it doesn't help me.

The ONLY way it would be the same is if you record your dirty, clean, inst, acap all in one file and use cues for each.

Or, you can design/alter each cover to be able to distinguish them.

Well, I don't play hip hop, but within the genres I do play, there are many times when I do happen to play several different tracks from a single record - and the way I visually make each track different is I simply drop the cover/label art into Photoshop, superimpose a large letter or symbol on them to indicate what version of the track it is and VIOLA! Instant solution for making a visual indicators so I know in an immediately what track/version I'm grabbing by simply looking at the artwork. This simple solution takes all of 30-60 seconds to accomplish and works like a champ. When there's a will there's a way my friend and there's lots of different ways to skin this cat.

lol - I see we were thinking the same thing while I was typing ;-)

I forgot Serato has a Show Album Artwork Tab in the bottom left corner under your crates/playlists. I may turn it on once in a while a try it if I start dropping artwork in with my tunes and see if it makes a difference.

I can also relate to what Sixxx is saying, we are in the same music pool and adding artwork to all the shit we get would be another full time job - 3 or 4 versions of each single, damn.

Yeah. As it is, I have a hard time organizing all the music I get... NOW I GOTTA MODIFY ART IN PHOTOSHOP TO DISTINGUISH CLEAN/DIRTY/INST/ACAP?

FUCK THAT!!!!!!!

hahahahahahaha


That is waaaaay too much work. I rather just read (Clean) (Inst) (Acap) on the song title.... that's more than a visual aid to me. hahahaha

It's a pain in the ass organizing and now cover Art. I'll pass on it.

I abhor Pioneer DJ mixers, when they get hot the Pre-amps distort.

You tell me if you can hear a difference of an MP3 played trough a Sound Blaster Card and the Apogee Mr Golden ears.

this feels like the release of windows vista all over again....

Exactly, so what's everybody bitching about. You can already browse by cover art in SSL, it's been there since the beginning. What do you want, a big ass picture on your screen to browse thru?

lol

I want Serato to have the voice from the car in Knight Rider. It can talk to me and suggest tunes to play.

''May I suggest Ante Up Michael??''
''No you may not and my names Caramac Kit not fucking Michael!!!''

cover art / album artwork / coverflow...
will just slow the app. better to not have it yet.
how 'instantaneously' has the 'album artwork' appeared when deck loading?
yup too slow & too late.
bad eg: itunes coverflow runs like a onelegged dog.
forget about any art for now.

I doubt it will make a difference in its CURRENT configuration because you have to navigate to the track BEFORE you actually see the artwork. That's NOT browsable cover art. Browsable Cover Art is where you see thumbnails of cover art for all your tracks WHILE you're looking at the library/virtual crates. This way you are navigating to and selecting tracks based on what they look like - not after the fact. It's a memory association thing and a speed thing.

sixxx, you don't HAVE to do anything. We were just offering a suggestion which would solve the issue you described.

And once again, no one ever suggested getting rid of the text with the addition of browsable cover art. BOTH would c0-exist so the end user could CHOOSE how they wanted to search/browse - either way or both ways simultaneously.

No, you can't in its CURRENT configuration because you have to navigate to the track BEFORE you actually see the artwork. That's NOT browsable cover art. Browsable Cover Art is where you see thumbnails of cover art for all your tracks WHILE you're looking at the library/virtual crates. This way you are navigating to and selecting tracks based on what they look like - not after the fact. It's a memory association thing and a speed thing. This is what browsable cover art is (as you can see, not a "big ass picture"):

soulsonica.com

And here it is the way NI is introducing it:

www.native-instruments.com

Looks familiar doesn't it. NI understands the extreme need of many DJs for this feature.

Not everyone has a dodgy computer. If your stuff is up to snuff there should be zero problems. I have iTunes on all of my computers and it works flawlessly. Never the slightest indication of even a hiccup. It's wonderful. Apple (like NI) understands that the majority of people remember things GRAPHICALLY while STILL allowing text for keyword searching at the same time. And once again, it has already been mentioned several times that the feature could be turned off for people who do not want/need the feature, or if their computer is dodgy, slow, not up to snuff for running the feature (just like other aspects of SL).

It never ceases to amaze me what some people consider to be a pain in the ass. It was just a few years ago DJs lugged around two or more crates of vinyl to every gig and now many squawk about the 30 seconds it takes to drop in cover art for tracks that might now have it already. lol

RE2 Has CoverArt Now Tooo..
i203.photobucket.com

Come On Serato Team!!!

Plus HOURS finding the cover art, multiplied by 100's of tracks per week. I'm not against new features if people want them (as long as it doesn't affect stability)- it would be cool, but should be optional and turned OFF by default.

That's a big "IF".




Amen and amen.

Carrying records and pulling up artwork in photoshop are two diff. Concepts. Honestly, I rather carry records than pull up and modify art so I can see it while browsing. It's too TIME CONSUMING.


And I'm gonna say it one more time..... I have NEVER said or thought that text will be eliminated if cover art exists. Once again, I don't think anyone is talking about getting rid of it.

-----

SSL has a lot of benefits, things that have helped the DJ and cover art (the pain of it) isn't worth the trouble of implementing it. IMHO, that is.

I'm telling you, the only way it makes sense and the only way it will be like what thousands of DJ's have been used to for many years would be if every DJ ripped their vinyl all songs/versions in one big file.
And, while many started doing that, most don't anymore.

stability is fuct as it is right now w/1.8.2

Carrying records and pulling up artwork in photoshop are two diff. Concepts. Honestly, I rather carry records than pull up and modify art so I can see it while browsing. It's too TIME CONSUMING.


And I'm gonna say it one more time..... I have NEVER said or thought that text will be eliminated if cover art exists. Once again, I don't think anyone is talking about getting rid of it.

-----

SSL has a lot of benefits, things that have helped the DJ and cover art (the pain of it) isn't worth the trouble of implementing it. IMHO, that is.

I'm telling you, the only way it makes sense and the only way it will be like what thousands of DJ's have been used to for many years would be if every DJ ripped their vinyl all songs/versions in one big file.
And, while many started doing that, most don't anymore.

^^2 x is a charm

i immediately went back to 1.8.1 due to the offline player fuck up. bug fix release? er, yea.

not just that many,many other creepy bugs lurking around..

Just think about this.... If the iPhone has Cover Flow and it works flawlessly, why can't a computer which is by far way more powerful handle it?

For those of you who don't wanna waste time looking for artwork, guess what? iTunes will search for it for you. All you have to do is go to the advanced menu and select GET ALBUM ARTWORK. Not all tracks will be there, but most will.

Now take a look at this..

www.djwoody.com

Just an idea.

Now imagine being able to scroll through that using your Mac's built in two finger scroll. Awesome! Isn't?

;)

Sixxx - this comment right here is TRUTH.

I could give a rat's ass if you're able to rock the house with Serato, Torq, Ableton Live, Tractor, Mixvibes, Ms. Pinky, MixMeister Fusion, or even a samper and a kazoo.

It's long past the time we need to stop focusing on the tools and focus on the art. It's not what you use to achieve those results - it's the result you achieve that are important.

You know what? I use Torq. Big deal. I come here because I like to give some advice on PA systems, general business, weddings and a few other areas. When I was looking at a variety of products, I was considering Serato but went with another product because I needed features it didn't have.

As a result my performance has grown. Will I outgrow Torq? It's possible. I use a lot of different software - Audacity, Ableton Live, M-Audio Torq, Pro Tools, Isotope RX, MixMeister Studio/Fusion and many, many others...

It's not about the tools I use - it's about the RESULTS I achieve getting there.

Carl Cox is a good DJ and producer. If he wants to use Tractor then more power to him. If he wants to use a kazoo and a human beat box - go for it. What he uses only interests me to the point of examining the feature set and seeing if there are features within the product that might interest me. There's not - but that's it.

I still watch the progression of Serato to see if it would interest me in time. So far I've not seen anything that either I don't have or need badly enough to switch. But I'm not a scratch DJ/tablist. If I was I'd probably be looking a lot closer at SSL.

We use the tools we use because it's what works for us. If Jazzy moved to Mixvibes why would you care? I'd look to see why it might interest him, but I wouldn't switch because he did.

Stop obsessing over the 'other guy' and start paying attention to your own equipment, sets, and business. I see more people working for peanuts and complaining about it on here than nearly any other forum I belong to. Why? Stop obsessing others and step your game up. Learn to work the business in a fashion you can actually make some decent money. Invest in yourself and your equipment - and then charge a fair rate. Why are you hauling out $5K worth of gear and DJ'ing for less than what it would cost to rent the gear to begin with?


As for the whole album art thing... check out HP's 'touch'...

sorry for the tirade.... but what I do isn't about the 'tools'... it's about the performance and the results... I just wish there were others who really felt the same way...

it's not what you use, it's how you use it

We all know iTunes and other softwares search for artwork. Does artwork exist for every record? No. And, if there is.... is it useful? Once again... no, if you have all your clean, dirty, inst, acap version in separate files. You STILL have to photoshop artwork and what not.

Then, bring remixes into the picture... can o' worms.

Come on Woody. You should know better than to make these kinds of comparisons.

i'm all for serato taking features out of the software lol. less is more imho.

Let traktor have the foot massaing midi controller, the built in contra video game @ half time, and the 130 bpm EDM Tribe Called Quest ebarassments.. and let Serato just have rock solid stability and a simple interface.

shit i still know cats using the original version of serato lol. no loops or anything.

How do you add cover art anyways?

LOL - apple makes iTunes & serato could tap into iTunes cover flow BUT serato can't even give us play count (yet). Plus I'd have 2 get cover art for all my crooklyn clan mash ups - can't get those on iTunes

: )

LOL

lol

I say that if you want to use browsable artwork then switch to Tracktor. I'll see you back here in 2 weeks when your shit crashes...lol

really hope serato taps into the itunes ratings system...

wow. i really didnt come back to this thread for a couple days cuz i wasnt expecting Serato to let us talk about a competitors product like this.

buti will say this though. i went to NI's forum and i cant get any real answers on shit over there like i can here.

i would like to see Serato just short of straight up copy traktor.
the midi control.
the effects.
sync.
looping.

a quote from someone on the NI page said something about Serato being just like vinyl in the sence that ya go from point a-b. and that is kinda boring. i want my music to be able to do other shit like traktor does.

sure, serato has its cue point functions... well i see this getting torn apart and the arguments about one product being better than the other. we should all know that it comes down to preference.
i mix almost only dance and house music. and serato doesnt give me enough to do TO my music unless i have effects on a mixer.

i know i mentioned the sync feature. i get it that that opens the door to microwaves, but i want that feature so i can really screw w/a song and then when i want to punch out of screwing around w/it, its all locked back into place.

i dont know. i see things i like and make me want to switch and spend that $600 or so to start converting.

and like dj action mentioned about dudes still using the original versiion of serato w/o loops etc... thats me. loops arent enough.
i like the simplicity of Serato. but im bored. need more.

and like music meister said... its not about the tools, its about the performance.

To tell you the truth they like this to see our thoughts. Be careful though coz Big Brother is watching.

wilkins820 just reaffirmed my opinion that most EDM DJ's should just straight up switch to Traktor.



I think it's up to YOU to do to music what it needs. Effects are cool but overrated (IMHO). Mixing and scratching is the essence of scratch live. Production and other stuff is probably going to be the new path of SSL + Ableton.

that would explain those faint, hot hair bursts on my neck

...and NI's forum is a joke. They will ban you or censor you if you say something that bashes their product. Here... every one is entitled to their opinion.

AMEN. Focus on the music and fuck everything else.

midi control is there.

effects are there (with a 57).

sync will NEVER come. Serato has said so themselves.

Looping is there.

yes sir.

cant get any answers over there.

It would be hard to find a forum that allows more free speech than this one. Period.

Coverart too much.

Art Payne? lol

thats a lie i read their forums everyday

i owned automix torq and traktor and read most forums to keep up

no program stays on top forever.

' hate is a four letter word'

I don't think the Serato team would agree with you there....

I wonder what the percentage of djs that use scratch live (hip hop vs EDM)

A joke?!?! The original NI/Stanton forums got SHUT DOWN because of all the people complaining that the product SUCKED!

no partnership split liar....................... been w/ them since 02...............

n.i was the best thing to happen to stanton they couldent keep up w/ hardware
so they did their own hardware

Blah blah blah, wah wah wah... whiney cry babies. House DJ's were still doing there thing when it was just 2 turntables and a mixer. If you can't rock a party without a bunch of extra shit helping you then you have no creativity and you need to quit calling yourself a DJ. Nobody is ever satisfied with what they have, always wanting more. Greedy bastards...greed is what alwasys gets you fucked in the end (Just take a look at Wall Street)

Before you ask for some feature that's on another product, just stop and think to yourself "hmm...it could be worse"

Always looking at the negative and never the positive.

The program is called SCRATCH LIVE not EDM Producer Live...lol

jesus christ. i was just saying that i was comparing the 2 and liked that i can do more to my mixes w/traktor.

or it would at least seem that ya could.

people get so angry and defensive like serato is their own creation.

a lot of us can rock a party w/2 turntables just fine. but what we want is to be able to do more. have more options.
we want to be able to be different. that's the reason for the fx and knobs and switches.

but i came to serato years ago cuz i was tired of carrying records and cds. now i want more options. call me greedy. what the fuck ever.

there is a such thing as too much. i just see some things that i can use and want to try that route for a bit.

Not getting angry or defensive or acting like serato is my creation. I'm just tired of people crying about SSL not having certain features that other programs have. This is why we have a free market. If another program has something you like then go out and get that program.

Kinda like buying a car, you can get a well built reliable Honda with just the basics or you can get a brand new Kia with all the bells and whistles.

You can put lipstick on a pig and dress it up, but it will still be a pig!!

And if you really wanna be creative then do what I've seen some people do... I remember back in the day when I used to go to raves and some DJs would do a live PA and bring out some studio gear to do their performance. You can always go that route if you wanna be CREATIVE.

same as watching tv on black n white or on a plasma ............your choise

LOL, this is turning into the NEW PC .vs Mac debate....

NI vs SSL

: )

Care for some popcorn?

is it that microwave shit? i prefer the kind ya pop over the stove in the aluminum pan deal.

i wish ssl could incorperate both options..
nice!!
soulsonica.com
www.djwoody.com

althogh i really dont see it coming because once serato & ableton put out whatever it is they are going to be releasing..
will be more studio production looking "i bet"
kinda like this..
thanks ekwipt.

img524.imageshack.us

anyhoo..
ive been thinking and just might purchase TSP so i have the best of both worlds..
im not going to be close minded & limited anymore
thats what keeps a person from getting anywhere in what ever your doing..
"remember only dead fish go with the flow"

Damned, too late to the game.

Man I'm glad I have a Mac.. wait whut?

img524.imageshack.us

I'm glad I have a PC !!!!...oh no wait....what was I thinking.

(****Runs out the door****)

If Serato can make Ableton easier to understand, it will be a beautiful thing.

I wish they (Serato and Ableton) give us a heads up on what to expect.

what if serato made another dj software prog geared towards edm dj's? MixLive or something? with all the sync and fx features you could ask for? and a bit less of analog skratch emulation...

what?

who?

They can call it WavieLIVE, or KnobTwisterLIVE...lol

Traktor Pro cannot store Album art with WAV files from what i can see. So whats the point?

Can't they do something similar to what Serato Scratch can do with WAV files and text (store it all in a separate file then point to a separate folder fr all of the album art)

There's no official response from NI about it

soulsonica: Traktor pro doesn't seem to be the end all, i'd rather be able to play wavs than look at pictures of album art

Each program has it's strengths, weaknesses, features, and benefits. Use what works for you...

I wanted a different feature set than Serato - and I found what works for me. Julls looked around and prefers SSL. There's nothing wrong with using something different than someone else.... get over it. Julls has about $3K worth of gear I've loaned to him at no charge. He took some of my equipment to the desert with him. He loaned me his Matrix 1000 while he was gone. Our friendship transcends out use of different DJ products... it's about the job. It's about the customer. It's about the performance. It's about getting the job done.

Quick complaining about who's using what and get back into the mix... ;-)

Agreed. I won't budge on stability or sound quality for cover art. This is why I've been praying for what seem like forever that the Serato team would implement this feature because I'm convinced if they did it would be the end all be all for a true DVS from a purist's perspective. I plan on checking into TSP a great deal when I get a chance to get fully informed on what it does/doesn't do before making a decision to switch.

It says it can...

your right Konix just found out it can as well

lets finally see what this this is like..

Traktor Pro Demo Finally Avalible....
www.native-instruments.com

please download and give us your thoughts!!

well, ima go ahead and put it out there and let me sound like a totla jackass idiot...

how do you get any sound out of the Traktor demo?

wouldn't ya need the interface? and since that doesn't come w/the demo...

yes, i already know i sound like a retard

only the traktor djpro. not the scratchpro.

only the traktor djpro. not the scratchpro.

geee'z dont know!!

s203.photobucket.com

Oh shit!!! LMAO!!!! Nice one!!! Built in TTM57 & SL1 Drivers!

LMAO! Hahahaha

I don't think it's built in. I think it pretty much does like Virtual DJ and recognizes the drivers that are already installed on your computer

it dose!! :)

well either way. i'm thinking about just getting the numark ns7 w/the ITCH.

i like the spinning platters and the compact all in one set-up.

now i won't have to worry about whether a place has tables or cds etc.
but i believe that's a whole nother thread... right?

microwave ?

what?

itch.

Just uses/reports the built in ASIO drivers.

you think ITCH = microwave?

its a microwave setup

Exactly.

Any ASIO aware application will list those devices.

Not everyone likes Traktor. I used Final "Scratch" (with Traktor) since it first came out in 2001, and never used it for scratching. I am a EDM DJ and love my Scratch LIVE, although I dont scratch much (I can do it through). I just love the interface, and the stability I get from it.

At the end of the day the world of the A list DJ, whether it be in EDM, Turntablism, Hip-Hop or whatever is a political and PR battleground, with DJs probably endorsing whoever pays the most.

yea i agree but.......

from what i see and hear.it has tighter response for the scratch dj and more controls and options for a EDM dj.

we will see in the next 4-6 months with what serato has planed.with a merger with abelton live and a couple fixes. serato will be back on track :)

Dude,

they should show some results of their creative partnership soon. Otherwise Native Instruments will sell them out a hundred times.

I am really a fan of Serato and its simplicity but the new Traktor has so many extremly useful features and little details you like after get used to them.
It´s not only about FX section, but the fully costumizable interface, the "coverflow" thing, the readable font, the ability to record your mix in the software without a third party solution, the fullscreen broswe mode, four decks if you need them and so on...

Again i am a Serato user for years now and i appreciate the policy of the company to constantly develop their piece of software but in my opinion - after trying the traktor demo for about 20 mins - you notice that this development was apparently very slow in comparison...

i will stick to serato at the moment since there will alyways be a "newer technique" and i am not that kind of guy constantly switching but if there wont be a major update in the near future or an announcement what to come i think i have to switch and i think a lot of djs will do so. At least here in Europe where its all about EDM.

2 cents :-)

What's EDM?
Whatever happened to call House music exactly what it is?
As DJs you should be ashamed of yourselves. Then again a real DJ would never call house music EDM. That's just as ignorant as all the idiots that call everything over 125 bpm techno.

OK, thread jack over. I'm done venting. Back to the subject...lol

I use the term EDM as I listen to different types of electronic music. And I dont think it is appropriate to band them all under "house" - techno is not house, electro is not house, trance is not house - I agree that may have had shared roots at some point, but they are different styles, and I am happy to use the phrase EDM as a blanket cover for all types of electronic music that I listen to when I speak to DJs who dont play any of that style of music.

I can assure you I am a REAL DJ, and I have been playing in clubs for ten years now so please keep your abusive messages to yourself.

Chill out man, it's just an acronym, Electronic Dance Music. It's just a generalized term.

Oh chill out. I'm just bustin on you guys. I know it would take forever to specify every single sub-genre of house if you posting something.

And I wasn't being abusive Milesy303, hence the "lol" and the end of my post.

On the real though, we need to come up with a new term. EDM is played out. Somebody come up with a new name for it...lol

thumpy

Well ok then.

My mum used to call it "bang bang music" when I lived at home.

lol, here in jersey some people call it "fist pumper music"

+1000000000,000000000000000,000000000000

EDM
i listen & play everything (that i like or sounds good) from Deep Soulful House to the darkest of Techno/Industrial Shit!!!

its going to be called EDM or EBM for me to many fuckin sub generes for all this shit..

Im a EDM/EBM Dj *fuck those who dont like it*

Anyways, back on topic. I downloaded the demo and been playing around with it the last couple days. I still just can't get down with the GUI, I cannot stand side by side monochrome waveforms anymore. While much improved from the old Traktor 3 GUI, I don't know, I still don't like it much. The effects are ok, a lot of variations of the same effect though. Do you really need 6 different filter effects? Plus you then have a master filter on each deck? A little redundant. But some of the effects are cool, I like the Flanger Pulse. The track browser though is still terrible and is my mine gripe. If you are used to and like SSL's crate system you will hate Traktor, and if you use iTunes (which I know a lot of you do) you will probably hate it even more.

However, there's a lot of things I like. Cue and loop point quantization is awesome. Never will you trigger offbeat. Looping is a lot like SSL's now, in terms of a box with all the preset beats and the little arrows on the sides to change the presets. Loop/beat moving forwards or backwards is cool. The deck display can be customized pretty much to your liking for what you want displayed (artist, title, album, BPM, pitched BPM, key, total time, time elapsed, time remain, etc.). I like how you can select any font that's install on your computer as the font used in the program. Font size is selectable 8-16pt. The playhead position on the main waveform can be offset and put anywhere (left, middle, right, or anywhere in between). Cover art in the browser is nice, but not as hyped up as it's made to be. Though there's a lot more options to display in the track browser that I know a lot of people have been asking for in SSL, like iTunes stars/rating, play count, last played, total time, etc.

MIDI control is extensive and much better than SSL's, however, no where near as simple as SSL's in term of setting up, there's no simple MIDI learn in Traktor. It's a very tedious and convoluted process setting up your MIDI controller in Traktor. But once you got everything mapped out it's nice. I've got my DDM4000 mapped to control the effects and some other things, and it works very well.

Overall though, not going anywhere and sticking with SSL. I just don't trust Traktor as a program or NI as a company.

well said konix.

i agree. the track record of rane - serato is awesome. a little slow.lol but solid!

thanks Konix..
you were reading my thought's.
just didnt want to type all that shit..
thought id wait for someone "like you" to chime in and jump on the bandwagon.
i really dont like it!!!

thats all i can type.

Are you talking about the TTM57SL?

;)

I don't like the effects on the 57. They're weak and can use a lot of improvement. Yes, flame me for this, but they should've made them more a la DJM800. I really like the control you have over them. Plus those knobs on the DJM800 are nice!

For those of you who are trying out the demo, what are you guys using it with? I can't get it to work with the 57. But then again, I really haven't tried and only spent about 10 mins with it.

You won't be able to get separate outputs for both decks if you're using the 57 as the soundcard, you'll only be able to do one master output for both decks to either channel 1 or channel 2.

And I agree Woody, the 57's effects need much improvement. The flanger and phaser, well, just sound terrible. And on top of that they are very hard to use, which is probably why hardly anyone uses them or knows how to use them, well, except the echo(s). Just look in the 57 subform at the several "I have no idea how to use my 57" posts. They do need to make them more "Pioneer" like, both sound-wise and in terms of usability.

Sound-wise? What's wrong with the sound of the TTM57?

I think one of the problems with the effects on the 57 is that Rane & Serato tried to give us way too much control over them. That causes confusion and with any little change, the effect changes dramatically. Plus, like Konix said, the way you work them is confusing. With my DJM800 I'm able to create very dramatic buildups when I'm spinning house. With the 57, I just sound like any other DJ.

In all honesty, I rarely use my 57. I think I used it about twice live at a party. Whenever I do sound, I end up taking my DJM800 & my SL1. My main reason for the 57 was to do videos, but since Mix Emergency is out already, I gotta try it out. If it works fine, than I might sell my 57 or I may keep it and get an EFX1000.

why is it terrible? is it no similar to serato?

best

I didn't mean the overall sound quality, I think the 57 sounds way cleaner than the 800. I was referring to the "sound" of the effects, namely the flanger and phaser. Like I said, the 57's flanger and phaser sound like poo and aren't even usable to me. I don't even want to do a demo video for them.



Good point and I agree. Maybe they (Rane/Serato) should make the effects like, d'oh, Trakor Pro's effects. TP has two effect modes; simple and advanced. Simple mode puts the most common parameters in one knob, advanced mode gives you three parameters/knobs to tweak and adjust. A "simple" mode for the 57's effects might make them more usable and understandable for most people.

can they do this with a firmware update?

in fact i am exploring traktor and crates/playlist managing it s weird at first sight.
i cannot import a folder that includes sub folders ( as i buy on beatport and download the tracks organized by labels, i got main folders and subfolders per track), directly to a playlist. thats only possible if you work with itunes . something i do not.

Hm, I think the sound fine - just different. Usability is a different question.



Sounds like a plan.


Yes.

great i hope its done soon.

because the features on the efx on the 57 aren't to friendly :)

I can't get it to recognize my SL1. :( When you guys installed the demo, did you guys selected Traktor Scratch? or Traktor Scratch Pro?

You won't be able to use TSP as you need the NI soundcard and vinyl, like with Serato Scratch, i'm going to download and give it a go

guys !
you know that i was asking for some improvements on serato like a sync ( don t kill me ) or something like another deck, and way to sync to another machine or program and a better midi implementation specially an assignable wave form on this ssl.
well.. i was 1 week reading traktor manual, testing , playing around with it.
sooooo....
about the program.. it is interesting switch between scratching and having a midi controller like faderfox for include some new layers, acapellas, beats.. it s remixing in realtime.. its very funny and the dancefloor loves it.
about efx.. to be honest... not my cup of tea.. don t use it and i don t like it . as an house/ tech house dj i don t like that "dance effects". sorry. but i understand people like it.
buttt.. what surprised me a lot... the sound..
i work with a sound engeneer. so in studio i was setting up with the same soundcard (rme fireface) traktor, serato and ableton live.
i know serato and traktor have their own but i wanted to test the sound algorithm and compare. (please tell me if its wrong thinking like that)
so.. the sound of traktor was a mess , hatefull compared to the others. i also prefer the serato than Ableton live wich i use for production and play live.
but traktor?? hoooowww. so so flat,so bad. no deep in basslines, no big sub, no clear in hi freq. i coudnt believe how was that possible. i feel like i as playing with a toy and no professional software.
conclusion.
even i will wait for improvements in serato, and wish for a better midi implementation, i will not switch. its the better choice for stability, reliability, sound and trust.:)

One of these days those guys will realize How Scratch Live is a better DVS.

Interesting discussion here - very educational ;)

But I have one question/point similar to jepe above - and that is sound quality:

From what I understand:

Serato: 16bit/44.1kHz
TSP: 24bit/96kHz
Red Book Audio CD Standard: 16bit/44.1kHz

So, my point is - whats the bonus in all that extra cash going into the TSP interface hardware, to up it to 24/96, when many DJs are gonna be playing sub Red Book quality mp3 audio files anyway?? Or does this mean all TSP DJs use uncompressed files? and even then......

Im kinda confused. I just dont understand how music that is produced at the Red Book standard can be made any better by TSP? Or is it just that TSP gets better sound out of crappy uncompressed files?

I helped a mate VJ at a club on sat night, and for the first time ever for me, had a DJ play off traktor (i dont get out that much at the moment ;) ). He was raving about this interface thing and I wanted to get more info.

Bottom line, for Djs playing files off Beatport, Ripped CDs etc....is there any benefit in the interface having capabilities above the produced media??

And just my 2 cents....The first time i used the Vertical Colour-coded waveform was like the first time i ran into Mr A Hofmann - "wow" there really is a whole other world out there....lol. This is the SINGLE most practically useful part of the software for me.....surely this is not to be understated?

Most Traktor Scratch users are going to be running their A8DJ at 44 or 48K and play MP3 files of varying quality. This is pretty much true of all DVS systems. The benefit of the A8DJ isn't just that it supports higher sample rates and bit depths, it's that for $60 USD more you can get a MUCH better soundcard. 8 ins and outs, XLR mic input, gain control with peak indicators, better AD/DA converters and overall sound, MIDI I/O, and MUCH BETTER ASIO DRIVERS (and CoreAudio support). That means that when you want to use the card for 4 deck DJing it's capable, and when you want to turn around and have a good interface for something like Ableton Live, it's good for that as well.

I see.....cheers for the info nem0nic......

just to clarify though:

* 48k - is there a benefit in this if the media was mastered at 44k ? (same point for sample rates and bit depths?) just trying to get my head around it!

* 4 stereo pairs of I/O - 2 extra decks cant ever be a bad thing!!

* XLR mic input much different to TRS, functionally speaking?

* Mic gain control is already on SL1 no? but no peak indicators - value in that

* AD/DA converters - could you elaborate for the layman? ie...importance of chip v algorithm etc...i dunno?

* Overall sound is a bit subjective .....like Logic7 v Protools 7.4, so do u mean like....louder, clearer....better top/bottom....fuller etc...just be good to get an idea or your opinion....

* MIDI I/O - as im currently using the CDJ400s via usb midi with serato, would I assume that if i dont wanna use any other midi gear (for arguments sake) that serato can suffice for midi control of decks?

* Much better ASIO drivers - I read its a Steinburg I/O Audio ones and zeros protocol...but how are the TSP ones better?

* Core Audio support - I thought Serato was kinda the same as digidesign in that you can only use their hardware for their software? but i guess even DD lets u output iTunes or something I think??

* Obviously if you only have the one DJ software interface, flexibility is key....but for someone in my position, who unfortunately has fricking 5 interfaces at the moment....maybe using the SL1 for anything else isnt that big a deal? but I can certainly see a massive plus here...

Anyway, im certainly getting the picture, but just wanted to know exactly what all the fuss was about...cheers again for the info!

PS - another quick question - I have been told that wave files.....are just the bare wave....no compression/processing or tagging or whatever.....so doesnt that mean that artwork can never ever be added to the file...no matter how swanky the software is??

Damn is this thread still going on?

The benefit of XLR over TRS is sturdier connections which can be locked in place. Both are balanced so audio wise there is no different.

as stated above EDM is electronic dance music, mainly only reffered to as that by Americans. in europe we just call it dance music. calling it house is too specific to one type of dance music.

Some people believe that soundcards perform better at 48k because of the antialiasing filter. So it has nothing to do with the source material, but the interface's ability to reproduce audio. I'll leave the arguments over stuff like bessel versus butterworth to the gearslutz crowd, but that is the rationale.

Many people prefer the XLR connection because it's more secure and doesn't require an obtrusive XLR to TRS converter.

The internals of the SL-1 versus the A8DJ are night and day. The A8DJ uses cirrus logic AD/DA converters, which are highly regarded and used in high end interfaces from companies like RME, Digidesign, etc. The SL-1 uses Texas Instruments converters (PCM3008T) that are used in low cost interfaces like the Edirol ua1a. I won't argue the ability of the average listener to hear the difference between a quality interface and an average one, or the benefit of using a high quality interface in most club environments. I'm just talking stats.

Some people use MIDI controllers that are not USB devices. And some (especially Mac users) desire controllers that offer MIDI connectors because they only have 2 USB ports (and only one that they can really use). So having the option of a real MIDI connector or two is valuable to some.

ASIO/Core Audio is important the minute you want to use a program like Ableton Live. Having the option to use one interface for multiple applications is nice (Jack anyone?). Sure, I CAN carry multiple interfaces to a gig - but if I don't have to, why not consolidate?

Wav files are usually paired with separate metadata that contains tagging information, album art, etc. It's a pretty common method of tagging files actually, and usually transparent to the user (unless it's Torq).

and now!!!
why im glad i use ssl!!!!
here's the f*ckin so called self appointed youtube guru tutor for traktor..
a1partydjs
www.youtube.com

oooh and why he chose traktor.

Quote: Tracktor is by far, "I MEAN" by far the superior product!!!
www.youtube.com

Yeah, skip forward to 1:30... and see how Traktor freaks out ;)

Is that guy from New Zealand? He's got an accent.

...




Aha...



I see.

I believe the 24bit comes into play with the effects as well though, + audio files could be created with programs such as Ableton live or Logic (loops for example), whos' to say the digital downloads aren't going to start selling higher bitrate waveforms in the future as well

Mp3s are old tech, hard drives are getting larger

All I heard was blah blah blah !!!! It is so strange he narrow traktor scratch and serato by paper !!!!!....What paper is he referring to !!!!! Another thing is he mentioned why he chose traktor scratch cause of his applications of what he does.....Hello !!!! He thinks Serato is for "R&B" scratch artist etc. or geared to it but he fail to realize it can be used in other applications of djing !!! What a complete idiot !!! Last but not least, he didn't even test the DVS out to see which is stable which didn't even talked or done at all. He might as well go back to CDs since he isn't computer literate to dj...........******BARF****!!!!!

lol.

The advantage for TRS is higher port density. You can fit 2 TRS ports in the same space as a single TRS port. They are also making locking TRS connectors for certain applications. However, these are larger and you loose the advantage of port density.

As I carry a number of 1m and 2m cables that handle TRS -> XLR (both M and F) as well as XLR gender benders it's not that big an issue for me. But it can be for some.

As for why one application over the other, it's a personal choice. I use a lot of different software - MP3 Tunes v2, Mixmeister Fusion, Mixmeister Studio, Torq, Torq LE, Pro Tools, InterFX Pro, Audigy, Tracktion, MediaMonkey and a number of others.... (FYI - I've used SSL, just never OWNED SSL). Each one has it's strengths and weaknesses for different applications. I use the tool that gets the job done best for ME. I can give a rat's ass about what anyone else uses unless it could make MY job easier/better/more efficient.

In other words, I look at what others are using to see if they have a feature or benefit that I need but don't already have. If not, I keep using what I'm using...

And a quick FYI... as for stability... I've not had any problems with 'crashing' from ANY of my DJ'ing or other audio applications like some might have others think. Even when layering VST effects and pushing the software to the limits they've been stable. The exception is... as it is with ANY application - beta software, unsupported configurations, and the occasional 'rogue' release that's just 'bad'. And EVERY company has one on occasion... even Serato... ;-)

his accent made it great... easy to unload cause there arent and steers

what can you learn from this geek

lol nice...

I learned that i'm even more glad i dont use traktor

*wink wink*

how?

i mean, you still have to mix w/it. its not an auto sync set-up.

its just like buying a packaged set up w/tables and a mixer w/ssl included.

alright. whatever.

Tables? I think not. Nothing can replace the feel of vinyl.

(no misquote)

ok, then fuckin cdj's

whatever.

pretend ya don't understand

Thank God for that...I nearly got my coat then.

;)

shit.
i already sold my sl1.

dammit

microwave = achieve something fast

setup = that thing you do before you start playing in your friends bedroom

itch + vci 300 = microwave setup

chill out its friday

unless your in sydney ;)

ONCE AND FOR ALL...

"Microwaves are people that use technology to compensate for their lack of Dj skills" - Dj Select

Time has nothing to do with it. Some people learn quicker than others. The itch is by no means a microwave setup, but if you use the automix feature, your a damn microwave.

lol J0be and wilkins820

I agree with this.

Can a DJ who uses strictly turntables and just plain all serato be a microwave? The answer is yes. Here's how.



------


Uses two turntables but plays someone else's mixes. He/she doesn't do any mixing at all... everything's for show. lol

DJs like us learned the hard way. That is, we trainwrecked our way to perfection lol.

If I were one of the guests at my first gig, I would have gone up to the DJ booth and told me to just retire early, what with all the trainwrecking and horrible song selection going on.

Ah, growing pains...

And now......Another Tracktor Moment
Brought to you by A1partydjs :)

ffw to 0:54
Watchwww.youtube.com

hahaha..
just noticed this he cry's about tracktor the whole video..
this is classic....this needs to be stickied.

LMAO !!!!!! Come to think of it, is he using PC for Traktor Sratch ???? This dude doesn't get it at all. LOL !!

^^^ Rane should give him Serato and make him a official spokesman...

why is tracktor suppose to work better on mac??
goes to show why serato is the best..
funny to how he complains about traktor support..

hehehehe...
remeber he narrow traktor scratch and serato by paper !!!!!.

hehehe this deserves a 5 tounge sallute :P :P :P :P :P

hehehe had to watch it agin..
he looks like he's gonna cry ;)

lol

im picking a used TS box for 350, i figure if it sucks i can get my money back. I own a ttm57 and ssl box, and im not selling them anytime soon.

Funniest video I have seen for quite a while.

Sticky this Video.

Native Instruments: Defective By Design.

Amazes me that people still buy that company's bug-filled garbage.

Actually I've recently heard one "DJ" with all regular records (no CD's, no computer) who fits the "microwave" designation perfectly.

Quite possibly the worst DJ-ing I've ever heard in my life.

what do you guys use to make mashups?

Sour cream instead of Butter or Milk, and Russet Potatoes.

the screen is way to busy for me. I love clean and simple. when I get drunk I might hit a button that might make me sound good. I would hate for that to happen

BIG MARV... Please stop posting the same question on every single thread on the forum. Here's a video to help you out with your mashup question.
Watchwww.youtube.com

I had Final Scratch once :'( that was a traumatic time in my life :(

.................´''''''''''''''`
.............. O[ © © ]O
+----o00---------(_)--------------------------+
|..................................................|
|.......Do Not Feed The Trolls..........|
|..................................................|
|..................................................|
+-------------------------------00o------------+
.................{_} {_}
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................oo0 0oo

I f'in loved that show lolololol or at least the spin off from 1998 teak knight rider...

lol

went from scratch to itch and never looked back......

you might want your doc to look at that one, buddy.

(no misquote)

ahh spacing fail.

Hmmm...

I think BIG MARV might be Tony Little's infamous cousin.

TL - www.myspace.com
BM - www.myspace.com

Wow, you found Tony Little! Nice!

HAHAHA!!!

I'm a NYer... there's barely a scene in NY