Very nice - great skilz

pass

although the rotaries would be nice for fx. i'd much rather be able to cut quick with the faders.

Would kill for a proper rotary version of Twitch.

To clarify idea behind concept... the smaller rotaries just above the channel rotaries are dedicated, discrete effects knobs for each channel.

Also, the level meters are tri-colored so you can actually see when the caution zone or max/clip is reached. That's one complaint I have already about Twitch in that all the meter segment are red so you have no idea when you're max'd out in dark environment because you can't tell which is the top meter segment.

Spend enough time on rotary mixers and you get real good and performing fast cuts with them.

im not rly into rotaries. mixers with pots are nice for long smooth mixers, i will definitly gove my vote for them for longer transitions. but, i like to cut when i play. bit hard with rotaries. the knock up looks the biz tho

ps, i hate u for having twitch! im waitin for it to come in and dying at play on it at a festival next weeeknd. just got of the fone with my gear guys... stil not in :(

Bonus: Rotaries tend to be more durable than linear faders ;-)

I hear ya' tymon - It's definitely a heritage/preference thing. Thsi is why Novation should offer two versions (like Rane does with the Empath).

Good luck on getting a speedy delivery on your Twitch. Hope she lands soon for ya'.

i reken ur version just needs a xfader.. then i'd be happy.

but u gotta admit.. theres something ego boosting bout slammin faders up and noddin ur head and pullin gurner munted faces!

which version are you running it with? hows the stability?

daaamn... i'm rly looking forward to twitch. its got everything I need. rly rly well thought out. kudos novation and serato

Yeah, I do that too, just with rotaries that's all. Arms fling out like chicken wings mad twisting knobs vs. wrists flicking up/down, but end result is still the same.



2.0. Sa far, so good — well, except it crashes computer when exiting Itch :-( Apparently a lot of users are experiencing this so I imagine it's being worked on now (hope so anyway).

Oh, and the sampler decks are useless IMO until they are MIDI mappable. Last thing you'll see me doing while DJIng is touching a damn computer.

a Twitch #2 is a must!
s1172.photobucket.com

Jeah, and with four Deck support and Split Cue please!
I would go and buy one at once.
[URL=s1148.photobucket.com][IMG]i1148.photobucket.com[/IMG][/URL]

haha a good one.. i hope they deside to make a new one once they failed with the quality of this one. i worked a lot with that unit.. got used to it.. and then broke.. and again, and again..
but if a new better version comes out, that keeps the concept, i ll get it. For now i got my self a DDJ SR. quite big but i can work on that thing... its not a toy.

Traktor X1 MKII its a nice move, 2 X1s MK2 and the mixer with audio is like a twitch.. :)
but u hate the browse knob! shity workflow in the middle of everything.. need both hands :/

anyway cheers!
G

Hey [O/][iii][O/]

Can I check out your TWITCH 2 idea? It says the image has been moved or deleted. Do you still have it?

sure:
s1172.photobucket.com

nothing specual actually and thats long time ago.. ,i did just some workflow improvements like biger pitch and browser knobs+++. and thought that seeing the waveforms on the controller would set me more free from the pc.
i designed my own controller in the meanwhile cause i wasnt happy with anything out there. but it stayed a design once makeing it real its more than dificult.
cheers
g

I saw that one. Its pretty cool. Is it the same as what [O/][iii][O/] had uploaded originally?

no this one is my picture i sent you. i do not remember what/When [O/][iii][O/] Pic was. its long time ago :)
i was one of the first to get a Twitch in austria, i realy like that controller.. i had 4 of them till now :) cause they had some static electricity issues. i have the pioneer DDJ SR now but i miss my Twitch workflow a lot! I hope for a Twitch 2 or an A&H successor
Cheers

Ah cool :)

Yes, I always thought the TWITCH especially was ahead of its time and would love to see an update one day. Heres hoping!

Adjusting the pitch to match BPM is awkward on the Twitch, unless you're using SYNC. I'd like to be able to push the pitch knob down once to match BPM on the other deck, and twice, to return to 0%.

Another big improvement would be live BPM readouts on the console face. And/or including the 'BPM Meter' as found on Numark controllers.

Hey DJ Demolition,

It sounds like you are asking for a button that, when pushed, matches the BPMs. How would that be different to pressing the sync button?



That would be cool, for a long time I didn't really notice the BPM meter and what it did. Once I learned about it, I found it to be really handy!

I come from a (digital) background of using Virtual DJ. It was a great program in it's time, and I still miss some of it's attributes.

When I hit the SYNC button, ...what I really want is "BeatLock". It would be handier (in my estimation) if all I wanted was to match BPM quickly, to simply click the adjustment button down. And, there again, it would be very helpful to have your BPM readout right there as well, so that there is no doubt about the status of that perimeter.

You see, when Novation designed the Twitch, they threw a lot of novel ideas in there. Some were pretty well thought out, and some of them weren't. Take the pitch control knob, for instance: The idea of a rotary pitch control is great. That's the way it should have been done from the start. But Technics elected to put a linear pot on their turntables, set it up to work backward, and every turntable and controller since then, has brainlessly copycatted their original mistake. At least the Novation engineers were smart enough and brave enough to try something different, but they still missed the mark. If they'd just utilized a rotary pot, it would have been fine, but they used an endless encoder instead. Consequently, there is no visual reference on the controller itself as to where the pitch is set in relation to 0%, or in comparison with the other deck. Note that Technics TTs also had additional visual feedback, in terms of the stroboscope effect on the side of the platter. The Twitch has none of that. Do you see what I mean?

One day, all the info that we now have to look at the computer screen to see, will be displayed right on the controller(s). And not all crowded together on some dinky little LCD screen, but right beside the corresponding controls. That is the most logical, practical place for it, and someday (soon I hope) some manufacturer will finally figure that out.

So if I understand you correctly, this "BeatLock" function only makes the BPMs the same, but does not sync/snap the phrases together. Is that right?

No, not exactly. What I mean is; I think you may be confused by the unfamiliar "BeatLock" term.

You see, VDJ had two buttons: both "SYNC", and "BeatLock". SYNC would simply set the deck pitch to match the other deck, therefor 'SYNC'ing the two pitch-wise at that instant. BeatLock (as it existed) would lock the beats together (once aligned) and hold them that way. Similar to the way that 'simple sync' works in Serato products, only better.

You are right, in that, what I want from the "one click of the pitch knob" function I described, is a simple instantaneous BPM/pitch match, as per the Virtual DJ "SYNC" example above.

Then later, (because with some tracks you really need it), if I actually required real "BeatLock" (what Serato calls "Simple-Sync") at some point, I could get that too, by pushing the Twitch SYNC button.

not a twitch or sync user but - this is the best post Ive read in a while

rotary pitch control.


designers: please stop imitating technics and turntables

Hey DJ Demolition,

Thanks for taking the time to explain it a bit further.



What I notice with our Simple Sync (Snap to Beatgrid disabled) if you hit sync the BPMs are matched, but it still does a "transient snap". If I understand correctly, your sync button would only do the BPM match part but no snap.

From my point of view I have been thinking "why would you want to split a one step process into two steps?"

Would I be correct in thinking the reason behind this is that, you like to match the BPMs quickly but you prefer to nudge the tracks to they are in phase together yourself, rather than have the software do it?

As you said, because with some tracks you really need it using a full snap would be something optional you would only use sometimes.

I suppose that we all have our own individual DJing methods and techniques. I can't speak for everyone else's preferences, but personally, I ordinarily don't need the software moving my tracks around for me. I always have my cues set up perfectly, and I use them religiously. So, my tracks are already aligned properly. The software is not perfected yet, and does not always get it right when it tries to align them on it's own. I usually prefer to do that sort of thing manually. As I say, I can't speak for everyone else, but I do know that there are others who feel the same about that particular aspect.

To clarify; when I say "with some tracks, you really need it" (BeatLock), I'm talking about tracks where the BPM is not constant, and moves all over the map. Or tracks that have been ripped from pre-mixed compilation CDs, where the BPM ramps up or down at the beginning and end of the tracks, which just happens to be the very same parts you are trying to mix in or out of.

There is no function tied to a single click of the pitch knob at this time, so the implementation of a feature that simple and natural, seems to be somewhat of a no-brainer to me. On the other hand, I'll probably never use my Twitch in a professional setting anyway (I much prefer my V7s), so if Serato doesn't see it my way, it won't effect me a whole lot personally, one way or the other. Mainly, I was just stating my opinion.

The one thing that IS bothering me, is the (IMHO) poor design of the SDJ GUI. If you have the time, please see my list of suggestions for improving SDJ here: serato.com and the screenshots here: www.flickr.com and here: www.flickr.com

In order for me to use the software most efficiently, I need the waveforms to move vertically, and in the right direction. With Virtual DJ, the user (if sufficiently skilled), can write his own interface, and get whatever his heart desires. Serato users, on the other-hand, are at the mercy of the company designers. All we can do is make suggestions, and pray that someone like yourself will take notice and plead our case.

I see. Its cool to just hear about your particular workflow and at the very least consider if we accommodate better for it. We obviously do have to consider many other workflows too and try and design our software to satisfy many different types of DJs.

There are up and downs to opening up the possibility of users making their own interface, just as there is with us keeping the design in house.

We do like to keep things simple and consistent usually, so thats why I would say you won't be seeing us allow for user developer interfaces anytime soon. But we are always willing to listen to users and their suggestions!



That particular use case is quite tricky. You want a type of Extended Mode View (both our Extended and Horizontal modes do make good use of space with a wide monitor) but the Vertical mode doesn't really take advantage of the space.

We found that particular ITCH view to be not so favoured in its time, but its not impossible that in the future we may offer some more options and bring back some sort of full length vertical waveform view.

Well, believe it or not, I do completely understand your point of view here, and even agree with you to a very large extent. I, also try to adhere to the K.I.S.S. principle, myself. And if the Serato designers & engineers can give me what I need to get the job done, I certainly have plenty of other things to tinker with besides writing software interfaces and options. ...not my favorite pass-time. The question seems to be: can they do that?

Well.., I really don't understand why it is so "tricky"? However, if you'll please pardon me for saying so, I don't see that *any* of the SDJ views are very efficient. It's only that the *vertical* view is particularly pathetic. Note also, my particular setup utilizes *dual* widescreen monitors, which works fine with Itch, but only serves to exacerbate the problem when I try to use SDJ.



Hmm, well as I say, I can't speak for everyone else, but it's the *only* Itch view that works for me. And you can see from the photo that even on my dual monitors, it's a very simple, effective, and efficient layout.

At this point, as well as for the foreseeable future (and I'm not by myself, incidentally), I have no choice but to remain with Itch, ...as SDJ is just unusable for me as it exists today. And from what you are saying, there is little point in us getting our hopes up for the future, either... Actually, ...if I could get the 'Beat Matching Display' in Itch oriented vertically as well, and I had the option to tab back and forth to a setup screen to set the cue and loop perimeters, I'd be happy to stick with Itch 2.2.2 from now on... But then of course that would negate any chances that Serato might have to sell me any additional software add-ons, ...don'cha know.

We can try! Thats why we try and listen to you guys on the forum and try to represent that within our internal discussions about features/things should look in Serato DJ.



I say its "tricky" for too reasons.

1. Because we currently don't really have any good view that really accommodates for you well, as you have discovered :)

2. In my opinion, using a screen resolution like yours isn't very common. In fact its the first and only time I have seen ITCH used with such a wide resolution like that.

Its always good to see those use cases though, because we can try our best to accommodate for them as we move forward.

Well Martin, I appreciate your honesty. But although it appears that the majority of Serato's (controller based, former Itch user) customers are out there working weddings, etc... with a Numark Mixtrack and a MacBook, there are others like me who are using twin monitors, etc, and the best available equipment. I assure you that I am not the only one. We are begging for the right tools, and I don't think that Serato can afford to turn their back on us just because we are a minority.

There are certain advantages to catering to your high-end customers. E.g.- By far the majority of GM's customers drive trucks. minivans, and four-door sedans.., yet they still build ridiculously fast and impractical ZR-1 Corvettes, because of the status it lends to the company, and because there are people like me out there that will buy them, regardless of the cost.

LCD monitors are cheap and light, and I have them built into the top of my case. Using two allows me to see a lot more information on screen, and to align the virtual on-screen decks with the controller decks. Particularly if they are wider apart, as with my V7 setup (See here: www.flickr.com ). Alternatively, it allows for monitoring two different programs in full-screen mode. Such as; Itch and Ableton, or your favorite digital vinyl program, if you need to bring your conventional turntables along for the show, as I do occasionally (see here: www.flickr.com ). Note also that touch screen monitors are becoming affordable also, and the response time is now within acceptable limits (8ms), so this sort of thing is going to become even more prevalent very soon, and your company will need to be ready, or they will certainly be left behind.

Okay, before I pose this next query, let me preface by saying that you are very diplomatic, a good listener, and a pleasant conversationalist. On the other hand, I really don't feel like I'm getting anywhere here. I realize that this exchange has drifted far away from the original topic, but if you don't mind, since none of the moderators will comment on my other ("problems with SDJ") post, I wonder if you could answer just one question that has been bothering me for a long time..?

See.., I am an engineer. A problem solver by trade. Formerly, I was a troubleshooting consultant who solved industrial engineering and process problems, and nowadays I'm in the industrial demo business, taking on demolition jobs that other companies find too dangerous or complicated. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make here, is that I have been quite successful at making a living from looking at workflow problems from a purely logical and independent point of view. I have found that once I get something arranged so that it will work well for me, then it works well for everyone else as well. When trying to use Serato's products, particularly SDJ, I find that certain aspects really 'rub against my grain'. But the real issue is that because Serato has locked out the user, I am unable to fix the problems to my satisfaction, and they become the proverbial "thorn in my side".

So, my question is: why are all the live waveforms on Serato products moving backward? Can you explain this? Is there some logical explanation that I have overlooked?

The vertical waveform (in Itch) is reversed also, but I can live with it, because I use the view with the waveform on the left side of the screen. I work with the left side of the platter, and it (the waveform) moves up when I move the platter up, and vice-versa. However, all the horizontal waveforms are totally backward to my sensibilities. If I move the platter clockwise (to the right), the waveform moves left. If I push the left pitch-bend button, the waveform moves to the right. When a track is playing, the platter and record spin clockwise, and the recorded music is passing under the (virtual) needle from left to right, ...yet the waveform moves from right to left... So tell me; what gives..? And why after all this time, is there no option to reverse the flow, as in VDJ?

DJ Demolition,



I like to think we don't turn the back on DJs in the "high end bracket". Its a personal focus of mine to respect these guys, because they have invested the most money with us! If you have ever spent time on a Mixtrack Pro, you will find the functionality (although it can get you by just fine) is severely lacking in comparison to the features that are at your finger tips with a high end device. In terms of software - we keep the functionality available as consistent as possible on screen, which means DJs can feel comfortable with it no matter what device they use, at whatever gig.

I have no doubt you aren't the only one with this type of setup (it looks really sweet by the way!) but in my experience so far in my role here, its not something I have personally seen before. I am sorry if you don't feel like you are getting anywhere with me, but if you are looking for answers or promises that we will be bringing back that view in a version of Serato DJ soon, its something I simply can't do.



If one main reasons why Serato software workflow doesn't work for you is because you are unable to fix or customize it to the point where it does, then Serato software is probably not for you. We have always prided ourselves on keeping things simple, plug and play, minimal setup - more DJing. Of course there has to some amount of options, and all software companies maintain that balance differently. We make pretty conscious decisions in every day product planning to eliminate the need for our DJs to have to think too much, spending time configuring, rather than doing whats important, playing music.

We hope that what we do offer suits most - but we understand that we will never be able to please everyone with our lack of customization. Its something we accept.



I am confused. I haven't seen anyone else mention this before as being incorrect, but I can understand that different logic works for different people.

I didn't know you could change it in Virtual DJ to be honest, but that is pretty interesting. What do they deem as the "default" direction when you first use the software?

I think I understand Serato's basic goals where their software is concerned. It's the "K.I.S.S." principle, as I mentioned earlier. And, yes I am familiar with the Mixtrack. Further, I own several different controllers of varying levels of quality and cost. I've bought some because they were practical, and others because I found them promising, unique, or just interesting. The most expensive and technically sophisticated of the lot are my V7s, and my (4) Stanton SCS1-Ds. But I have a varied selection, all the way down through the Twitch (of which you were already aware), and even a lowly Numark "DJ-2-GO" pocket controller.



No, I'm not looking for promises. Not at all. If possible, I'm trying to get someone to take action.

No offense meant, Martin. But, I think you have missed my whole point. As I had stated earlier; I don't want to have to customize... I have many other (more enjoyable) things to do with my time. I would much rather have just exactly what you say the company wants to deliver. To re-phrase, "military grade" DJ software. No frills, just a tool that is rock solid, simple, efficient, and effective.

But again.., the question I asked before: can they actually do that? Your reply: you're not making any promises. You guys want to make some money? Just give us what we want, and we'll pay for it. That's the way real business works. Real DJs are not looking for freebies, or handouts. We'll happily pay a reasonable price to get what we feel that we need to be the best.

Serato does have certain advantages over it's competition. They have made some very noteworthy advances in some areas. For instance, the color coded waveforms, and the so called 'beat grids' with numbered bars. These are a great help. But, if you care to take the time, you can look through the VDJ forum archives, and find where I suggested those same improvements to them years ago, only to have them basically laugh in my face. I guess they're not laughing now. Serato has taken a major piece of their market share, mainly because of those same features.

No one ever listens to free advise... Unless they're paying an "expert", they're just not receptive. Might as well be pouring water over a duck's back. For example; I tried to talk sense to the Numark reps about the issue with their V7 and NS7 controllers not holding cue position. They gave me the same kinds of answers I've gotten (again, no offense) from you. Basically, they said (in a diplomatic way) that all the other DJs loved it that way, and that my needs and opinion were strange, and not very important in the grand scheme. But, it was/is nevertheless a very aggravating issue, and you can find plenty of rants about it from other owners, right here on this forum alone. So I gave up on Numark, and took matters into my own hands. I put one of my electrical engineering associates on the job, and in short order the problem was solved. Well, at least for me, anyway... You can see the results here: www.flickr.com



No, I'm sure you haven't.., because people are herd animals. Not one out of a thousand people is/are capable of thinking originally, or to put it another way; outside the box! But you neglected to comment on my "logic", as you say, or to answer my question: Do you not see the common sense in what I'm saying there? Does it not seem backward to you, when you actually stop and think about it?

More people who used VDJ did pick up on it, naturally. Because they are of a different sort of 'hands-on' mindset, and VDJ does promote a certain amount of independent thought, by providing it's users with tools to modify the software to suit their own individual needs.



Just like everyone else, it's backward. In fact, I think it was Atomix (VDJ) whom everyone copied when they initially developed their own brands. If I'm not mistaken, they were the first to market.

Martin, getting back to the Twitch related discussion, and attempting to further illustrate my point; which is; that the live waveforms on all Serato products move inexplicably backward.

The Twitch controllers have touch pads with animated LED back-lighting. A red bar moves from left to right, to simulate a record turning, or the sweep hand on the Serato clockface (which evidently also simulates a turning record). When a track is playing (as stated) the simulation is moving left to right, yet the Serato waveform representation of the track moves right to left. Stop the track and push it forward (right) with your finger, and the Serato waveform moves left. Push it left, and Serato moves right. (Or, to put it more accurately; it moves *wrong*).

You say you are confused. Yeah, me too. But I'm wondering if that's because you don't understand why I would complain, if you never heard anyone else point out the problem, ...or if it might be because you can't understand why anyone would be so oblivious as to design something totally backward, to begin with. Well.., that's the camp I'm in, at any rate.

Yeah, fair enough. Its particularly confusing with the TWITCH because moves the complete opposite direction.

With other devices which have platters, it seems like something a lot of people are used to.

I am sure we could consider an option to reverse the direction of the waveforms, which could especially help users like yourself, and people who own TWITCH.

Not to thread jack, but the only place Serato does not like K.I.S.S. is with the more complicated gui label sticker behavior (jumping around) near cue points.
IMO
yes, please continue.

Yaaaay..! Maybe I'm actually getting somewhere here.

I feel like Copernicus. He spent his whole life trying to get others to see the obvious, and yet today, 600 years later, according to some reports 25% of the word's population still believe that the Sun revolves around the earth..!

Well, in any case, don't forget that *all* the live waveforms are backward. The "Beat Matching Display" (which shows the transients) is also in reverse. Also, while we're on the subject, Ive noticed that the "Tempo Matching Display" always expands and contracts relative to the left extreme side, no matter where the virtual playhead may be in the track. Perhaps I'm looking at it wrong, however to my thinking, it would be represented more accurately, if the neutral point were in the center of the display.

Getting back to the "Main Waveform Display": I'm certain that I am in a small minority here, but due to my split screen setup, I can't utilize the center vertical waveform display as found in SDJ. I must have it on the left side, as in Itch. Further, even though it is technically backward also, the current direction of movement for the vertical main waveform display works just fine for me (not the "beat matching part, which is horizontal regardless), for the reasons I mentioned before. And I really wouldn't want to have to un-learn that particular aspect of the interface, so if they could provide options to reverse each one separately, that would be very nice.

Thanks, AKIEM.

That is one of my other points. To me, the "clock" is only useful as it now exists, as an indicator of which track is currently playing. However, if the sweep hand were set to sweep once per bar, it would serve a much more graphically important purpose. There could even be a number displayed there, representative of the current bar. And (assuming your cue points are set to the downbeat) there would be no reason for the sweep to jump ahead to TDC at every cue, because it would find itself there naturally.

What is twitch 2 coming out soon?

I love twitch one, but cant't take it to a gig because: pitch is no good for beatmaching by ear, slider would be better. It's usb powered, the sound quality is ok, but sometimes i heard mad loud pops, cracles etc. while playing, cant have this happen live.

Also manual loop in/ out would be much appriciated. 4 tracks would be a nice bonus too.

Yes - thats something I even quit mentioning because it seems too difficult for people to think about or whatever.

BUT - when we arnt even using vinyl the clock/sticker there is no actual reason for it to spin at 33/3 it would make much more sense to measure bars.

too much thinking in the box going on [imo]

Exactly right.

There's nothing wrong with a rotary pitch fader, in itself... The problem with twitch is; it has an endless rotary encoder that is speed sensitive, and has no position indicator. If they would have installed a standard rotary pot, it would have been simple to use.

Regarding the pops, clicks, etc.: strange that you're having those sort of problems.., mine is solid as a rock.