www.scratchlive.net
www.scratchlive.net
www.scratchlive.net

Search before you post, If everyone comments on ONE thread about an echo out feature then theres alot more chance it will happen than lots of little threads. Its the main effect I want.
Cheers

Yes MEE TOO, i l would love to see a Sound Effect section installed in Serato, expensive software, i love it, but where is the sound effect grid, i can really use one!!!!! PLEASE

you wouldn't be able to use an echo out on just the SL1 like the one you're used to hearing.

Any fx that Rane would add into a regular SL1 upgrade would have to be pre-fader.

The echo out effect that everyone overuses needs to be post-fader.

Im tempted to get a kaoss mini. Theres something similar on that I think. Wont be quite as simple to use but I might give it a go. Need that effect.

because rane has more money from TT....
Technicaly i dont think there is no differecnce (only pre or post effects), but i think that nothing will happend if rane would implement flanger or delay to SL1... i would much apreciate...

i forgot - TTM is piece of crap....
its useable only at home, it has only 2 channels and its not a club mixer at all... i cant imagine that i came to the club and ask them to switch the mixer during the night in the middle of someones set because i would need to prepare my stuff...
it is not useable for dj´s pleaying anewhere in a club - its designed for home djing - its why i bought sl-1 and i am realy not happy that most new features are designed for TTM and SL1 is little bit discrimanetd.

I could use something like this - it would be nice to have it when just using a battle mixer and not having to shell out for external fx/mixer with fx. - as I understand it, SSL arch nemesis Traktor Scratch implements an fx section, and it was one of the things I looked at when choosing between the two...

Anyway, my copy of SSL comes tomorrow and I cant wait! Better interface/support/useability i reckons.

CD

I think the reason the 57 has effects while the SL1 doesnt is because half the effects DJs use dont work too well pre-fader.

Just get a Pioneer 909. Lol.

I wouldnt care for fx, it doesnt make you a better dj. The crowd really dont cares either, i think they would rather hear your mixing skills with no fx then hearing you throw an echo to switch to the next song. Fx's are just candy to the ear and it seems that were a bunch of kids rolling around here, including me.

exactly... -i know how to play and i know it fuckin´good - i am not awaiting that it will make me better dj... ;) i like the sound of flanger how is turning the sound inside out or short delay and i want to use effects sometimes in my sets...-you know what i mean... but in the clubs where i am playing is not stuff like pioneer effectors or mixers with a built-in effect unit - they are using mostly rodecs without an effector.
the question is - if effects on TTM, why not on SL-1? (no answers like pre-fader, post-fader - for example in the Traktor, the effects are worrking pretty well...)

MOST new features?


if they added effects able to be used by the sl1, they would be pre-fader. which is poor, trust me. this isnt a design limitation, or DISCRIMINATION (i mean, seriously what are u on) because of how the hardware wires into your existing setup.

im guessing you are also talking about video mixing. think about it. serato and rane want to do something better than everyone else. video requires to have some external control for it to work really nicely, so you need a mixer where you know where the faders are, midi control. so, what do we have that does that? oh, the ttm57, that does that. the ttm57 allows external control of software functionality, its not DISCRIMINATION, its a matter of how the hardware works.

i mean seriously, think about it... its not hard.

Because the 57 has a DSP chip, the SL1 does not. That is why there are effects on the 57 and not the SL1. The effects on the 57 are not in the program, but in the mixer itself, just that the effects are controlled from the software.

and what about software effects controlled by the software?

Exactly, it would be hard to make an effect section for the software/SL-1 users, other programs such as Virtual DJ and Traktor have some pretty kick ass effects. I was just saying, these too would be nice for us Serato Scratch LIVE (SL-1) users.

effects like reverb, echo, delay? you want those effects?

because the people who jumped on ssl in the early stages voted against internal fx.....i think..

effects on traktor are pre-fader too.

pre-fader effects suck honestly. It's pretty widespread knowledge that serato doesn't have fx on the sl1 - if you *need* them that bad, buy an external device. You can get an entry level kaoss pad for like $150 which will do way more than any internal, pre-fader, fx in traktor could ever hope to do.

I don't understand why people get all bent out of shape that there's no fx for the SL1 when there's never even been mention about adding fx to the SL1 version and, any fx they add to it will suck ass anyway...

I could'nt care less about FX if it's gonna make SL1 unstable. I'm happy of what it does right now. I could'nt ask for more.

Stability = Peace of mind.

I rather have something like saving sets on prepare window. It makes it alot easier on preparing sets for a particular gig.

Yes.

The reason I GOT SSL over any other virtual vinyl set-up was because of its simplistic design and the ability to be compatible to any house set up. I love the fact that all SSL does for me is make it so I don't have to worry about inherent problems to playing music cut on vinyl anymore (everything from digging to labeling cue-points to lugging pounds of it everywhere I go). If you want effects, you do them post-fade from an external source. That's not just from a DJing standpoint, that's from common live sound reinforcement practice. As dj_soo said, quit whining to serato/rane to include fx for ssl-1 and go buy a kaoss pad and happily throw down your mad fx skills without having to give those of us who like serato the way it is a headache.

(OffTopic) If they do ANYTHING to SSL at this point it should be better library management. I'm sick of having to delete dead-files and my lack of programming knowledge is confused with scratchtools' lack of a GUI. (/OffTopic)

good point.

I still really would love to see even a simple echo/delay effect. Even if it is pre-fader.

couldjust be like a stop button that sops the track and echos out.

have you heard a pre-fader echo effect? It's pretty pointless

Use a 1/2 beat auto loop and lower your volume fader on your mixer. There you go, prefader echo.

or just do it the old fashioned way and use your turntables.

bingo

I mater of fact I quit using echo.

you get more control with this method.

You can also make a Phaser effect by putting the same song on both decks and tuggle with the tempo a little its perfect

I have. I disagree.

Nice one.

really cant imagine pre-fade echo being good for too much.

maybe you want to flip it on a snare a little or something

but echoing out is not going to happen

and doubling up a scratch is not going to happen



Ive had mixers with post fade effects, worthless

i have a numark dmx 1003, and its effects are pre fade. the echo is useful in one way only, if i actually flick the line selector switch. that only works, however... if the phono passthru leads arent connected, else i get cv tone through the speakers, echod.

believe me, pre-fade echo effects are worthless.

wicked suggestion, thanks alot :)

just echo your self on a out of a mix!!

way to many effects being used today.

1 vst host per channel or 2 vst host send could be great. But as I user of serato and final scratch... it's not a big deal to replicate standard fx of pioneerish style of mixer.

The vst host could open infinite possibilities. Imagine using reaktor and pluggo...

Also... the usb 1 could reach a certain limitation in data transfert. Also, cpu and latency issues as to be consider.

the people on the forum r like vinyl snobs there going 2 attack u for your vision I think most of the DJ's don't even do it 4 a living there daily highlight is 2 knock other people & there ways u know player hating ...... I think if u want FX you should have them if trackto gives u FX & 4 deck controle then we should have that & more

I think a good many people on this board (obviously not all) actually care about SSL, and when they disagree its not to be disagreeable, knock the other guy, or hate on im. Its because they actually do not believe... if you pay attention you will see that the same people who intelligently or vehemently disagree about something in one thread will agree and congratulate you for the next topic. There are also plenty of people here who are able to not take it personally when people disagree about something. Thats why I like this place. People disagree with things I post all the time, I dont assume they are hating, and sometimes they are right, or make better sense, I change my mind, its no big deal...

In this case, this has been suggested literally hundreds of times. There are plenty of other threads with the same topic. If there is some new idea or reason you can add on there instead of a hundred separate threads with the exact same thing being said over and over again.

Should SSL add features just because other companies do? No, thats not a good way build a quality product. Companies that add every conceivable bell and whistle regardless of its usefulness are selling you trash.


Probably the most used effect is delay, also known as echo. In most cases a prefade echo is useless, the same with reverb and so on. In most cases you want the echo to last after you close the fader, otherwise there is no reason for it. Im reasonably sure that most people who suggest effects on the SL1 do not understand the concept of pre or post fader. Maybe after the try to use it they will realize that they actually need the echo to be postfader.

Are you going to buy a car stereo with effects on it? Im not.

Amen Akiem, well said. Although, technically, a delay and echo are separate effects (at least on Pionner mixers), an echo is an elongated and repeating delay :P.

ha, yes I know, but we have 'echo' on the 57 :p

'Delay' is repeated in regular unchanging intervals, while 'echo' would be several variant interval repetitions like multiple delays. At least thats the way I looked at it. well and I guess an echo wouldnt really be an echo if it only had only one return like a delay would still be a delay...



also, I forgot to add that mostly people arnt just hating here, its a matter of trying to elevate the conversation. Imagine all the mental energy waisted by making the exact same suggestion over and over again with the exact same answer. all that mental energy could be used to come up with a real new concept instead.

I think this is exactly the case.

Ok I read this post and have a question.
Why cant Serato make it available to use effects on your CD player. I use a Denon 9000 and there is quite a few other players on the market that have all the effects Djs here want. Serato make this feature usless to these decks.
Making Serato reconize how the waveform of the control tone changes for specific effects and decks would solve the problem and not impact computer proformance.
Do I make any sense ?
I use my Denon, turn flanger effect on it changes the tone or frequancy of the control CD. Programing Serato to deal with this change and give the appropriate sound response would be great.
Perhaps having a box in setup to choose your CD player. So it is customized to your deck.
Thank you .... Get ER DONE !!!

are you saying that you want SSL to to detect what effect the cd players is applying to the control signal, and then in turn apply the same effect to the track?

for example:
you press flange on the cd deck
the flange is applied to the control signal
serato recognizes what a control signal looks like with flange on it
serato turns flange on the track you are playing

is that what you are asking?

Beat Grid is really helpfull when you mix !! I ned it too !!!

PEACE !

AKIEM ...... my friend I don't play the same music that u do I have 2 FX boxes & I use every effect. it works great trust me I'm not new 2 this I don't need a lesson on DJing I need well thought out FX on my serato so I can do my thing not yours & suggesting that I want the same FX that every one else has is not to insightful on your part. This thing is important 2 me so I’ll keep bringing it up until I get what I want thank u 4 nothing .

I doubt you know what I play but - fine
Im not exactly fallowing you here ether.

exactly what effects do you want?

and why do you want them when you already have two efx boxes?

Well one of the standard suggestions in the forum are mine I recommended having the FX that we all know & some FX specific to serato weather its from 3rd party developers or by rane it self I don’t care maybe a library of FX that we can choose from . It would be great to have FX that r so well SNKD to the BPM of the track that the control of the FX in our hands would be superior to external FX boxes. & to ask why I want it is ridicules …. If u had CD’s or records why u need serato did? When u answer that question I believe that you’ll get your answer

So because you didnt answer what effects you want Im going to assume that you would like delays, echos and reverbs (as well as others) correct?

"If u had CD’s or records why u need serato did?"
I dont understand this question

and why do you want them when you already have two efx boxes?

I was trying 2 answer your question with a question I want u to use your mind sorry I wrote to fast .......

If u had CD’s or records why would u need serato ?????? Because ?????? _________

But any way good luck with your thing hope it works out for u ..... cause talking to u is driving me crazy .... later bro

The "did" at the end of your question: "If u had CD’s or records why u need serato did?" threw me off. I guess you are saying -using SSL is to vinyl, as EFX in SSL is to effects boxes. If thats what you are saying I don't agree.

You still did not answer my question "exactly what effects do you want?" I also asked specifically if you wanted "delays, echos and reverbs" but you did not answer.

If you arnt going to answer the question, then yes, I guess thats where it ends.




delays, echos and reverbs are shit pre-fade.

Serato opening SSL up for plug-ins is not going to happen. Highest on the agenda is stability (vs gadgetry), imagine all the "serato crashes" if it where opened to any hack effect plug-ins.

Let me spell it out 4 u I like my 5lb bag some times when I'm not touring I ride my motorcycle to work the reason we got serato is 2 keep baggage 2 a minimal I don’t want any FX boxes midi controllers or ttm57's infact I would by a hole new serato if they came out with a slimmer box ...... here r some FX that u might not know about cause u keep asking me what FX I want. get over it I'm hoping that rane or serato come up with some FX that would be all new or a combination of standard FX ...... my FX list vocoder Chores reverse reverb robot tremolo pitch
There all just variations of standard FX & believe me this day & age they can give us FX & a stable program it's not impossible. Hope that answers your questions & u can sleep at night from know on?? Or maybe you'll find some other thing 2 nit pick over..... Think outside the box …….. this is the truth B 4 serato released ssl I called them & asked them if FX were in there future & they said 2 me we r going 2 make a stable program & then implement FX I believe that I had a stable program for a long time now I want 2 hold them 2 there word.

rudeness aside. + I still dont fallow everything you are saying

maybe this SeratoITCH thing will be what you are looking for.

lol, I know about lots of effects, trust. I just wanted to know if you wanted specifically "delays, echos and reverbs" because they dont work very well pre-fader. And if those will work like shit, I dont see the need for effects at all while you have other options. It would be redundant if you want delay so you have an external box that will also come with all the standard effects AND only some effects in SSL, the ones that work pre-fader for example.

do you know the difference between putting the delay pre-fader or post-fader?

as far as stability, I was talking about the third party plug-ins it looked like you were suggesting. I know serato can run stable effects, I use them on the TTM57 all the time- perfectly stable.

go ahead explain

well as of today the question looks as if it moot - straight out the Serato lab ITCH

for the sake of whatever..
lets take 'echo', one of, if not thee most wanted and used DJ effect (debatable sure)
the sound of the echo is meant to last longer then the original sound by a set amount of time and other variables. For instance, you could apply echo to a snare that lasts half a second. The repeating of the echo could go on repeating for another four seconds or whatever. Now you have two sounds, the original snare, and the echo of the snare. If the echo is pre-fader, then both sounds are treated as one sound when it comes to the fader. If in the middle of that four second you cut that channel off with the fader you loose the echo sound that was meant to last the whole four seconds. It sounds very unnatural. But if you put the echo post-fader when you cut the fader off the echo will continue regardless. This will sound proper.

I dont know what type of equipment you have, so I dont know if you can try it both ways to see it for yourself. But try putting your effects box between your SSL box and your mixer. put on an echo and play around with it. this is pre-fader. This would be the same as if the effect were in the SSL software.

This for many and plenty if not most DJs is worthless.

The Serato solution is the TTM57.
And now the proper software for all the people who keep asking for effects and auto shit will be ITCH!

case closed

I don't cut in to tracks man I use FX wile the track is playing I dont use FX for mixing but if it works for u then u should have it.... now I know what u mean ......but my point exactly stop thinking that everyone spins the same way u do just let it go bro ...... or mayby u can get a TTM57 tatto on your neck ... get over it its not the perfect solution the ttm57 is not the answer & it's to big......

are you mad?



I dont think everyone spins like me, far from it. And it doesnt mater what I play, I would still say effects belong post fader. That wouldnt change if I played anything from Bhangra to Bluegrass.

I dont think the TTM57 is perfect, imo it has some flaws, some that can be fixed, and some that can not. But one thing that it does get right is where the effects are -post-fader. If you had a 57 it would be dumb to have two sets of the same effects, one in the software and one in the mixer. And if you dont have a 57 but use effects that belong post-fader then it would be dumb to have effects in the software and in another set in an effects box.

But it doesnt mater anyway because if you want effects in the software, it sounds like what you want will be ITCH!

that'll be funny if itch has fx...

Yes thars exectly what im trying to say

lol i cant spell apparently

Yes thats what im trying to say AKIEM

well not only would that be impossible, and impractical if it were possible, but it would also be absurd.

1. instead of having the computer try and decipher what effect you are applying to the control signal, why not the computer just understand that you pushed a button because it is directly linked to a button? That would be like having a tv remote say the number and the tv decipher the words it said. (even tho thats a little like D to A to D to A in the first place)

2. Maybe you could get a computer to recognize what effect you are using, a little like speech recognition, but any of the parameters would be out of the question, and it still wouldnt get it right every time. Sort of the way speech recognition does okay some times but could hardly detect emotion.

3. Last and most important If the control signal were being decimated, and destroyed by whatever effects you are applying, how would it continue to control? That would be like putting effects on the voice coming from your remote and expect the tv to still understand what button you are pushing.


anyway, I only answered this to be a smart ass because I bet you arnt really suggesting what you think you are.

It would be pretty funny if our shit did work like that tho
"shhhhh, let me go mute the sound so I can flip the channels"
"channel four-t 1" -computer voice
"hey let me put a cool effect on the remote"
"ch cha chan nn nneel eel el fa fa four our ti ti ta ta ta two ow oow ooow"
"damnit why cant they make a tv that can understand shit even with an effect on it!!"

is this actually still going on

I dont know about you guys but the reason I use SSL is because its nothing like everything else. I dont want a program full of junk to make it unstable like VDJ.

nice talking 2 u akiem I hope it was insightful to all but I have a feeling that some people can't have both . what I want is my option in no way do I want every one to do as I do but there will allways be people like the last guy who left a coment that has to put in his ideas with out room for some one else to have a vision ..... I am convinced that this forum is not for the open minded but its for the time abundant over & out good luck 2 you all

unknown just,
I dont think you understand, what you are asking for is physically impossible.

dont get scared off bro,

take a real look at what you are asking the equipment to do


-

let me ask you something,
do you know what the control signal sounds like?

what akiem said...

its not physically possible.

the hardware setup wont do it.

how else can this be put?

AKIEM - OK are you for real? Do you have any idea what your talking about?
What is the control CD?
A steady tone ...
Tones / Music any sound has a waveform attached to it ...
When the waveform is changed by my Denon it would be nice if Serato understood the change and not crapped out...
Its a matter of programming and reconintion.
It takes time and research

Believe me I dont think your a smart ass .... Just an ASS !!!

Sorry logan... if AKIEM was an ass, he would be a SMART ass.

Besides this, you obviously dont understand the concept. If an effect filters out certain parts of the control signal.. how should SSL rebuild them? Guess them? There is no way. Period.

ok
first, its not a pure tone, it is encoded time information. place the needle on the record and it instantly knows exactly what time location it is at. you can do that yourself and you will see that it is not just a tone, it is contains time information.

second, you probably could get it to identify and recognize what effect you are using, but the more effects the harder it is going to be, delay, flange, reverb, filter, phaser. and what about using two effects, its going to recognize both at the same time? you think you could really get it to recognize a delay and a reverb then get the parameters for each right? I bet you couldnt even get any of the reverb parameters set right.

third, how is the program going be controlled by the control signal when it is destroyed by the effect? Its not.

Could be done? Maybe with a Black Budget. Instead, use freaking a midi button. It would be like sitting sitting in a luxury car, your destination is one mile west, but you decide to get out, take your shoes off and head East to get there. Theoretically you could do it, but why the fuck would you?

Dont believe me, PM any mod the question. I can give you a list of ten or more people here who are smart enough to figure it out. I bet you couldnt find five (altho Im not too sure about that) people to agree that it is possible.

Ether way, go figure that shit out, then come back to me and apologize, so we can see who the real ASS is.

listen, im gonna say this slowly.

IT

CANT

WORK

it cant. its not possible. you wont make it work. how its set up, it wont work.

stop being dumb, please.

I personally think it's not worth having effects pre-fader and as a result I'm more that happy for serato to keep them out of the program...I like serato because it does what it does and doesn't try to do too much.

while we're requesting physically impossible things, I'd really like the SL1 to record my sets by magically detecting my fader movements on my mixer.

please?

I want a button that takes out the vocals on the fly

these are all easter eggs

thats what I thought, I heard there was an auto-mix easter egg

ok now you've gone too far.

Do I not make sense? Is everyone here so narrow minded?
Ill say this again
Every feature on the Denon or any other CD player changes the control tone the same way .... meaning if you hit flanger it is going to change the tone in a specific way ...
SERATO screws up because it has not been programed to know what to do with it or how to reconize the new signal ...
So the answer is to tell serato what to do with it
not IT CANT BE DONE
Because the control CD is a constant ... meaning everytime you play it its the same ... what the CD player does to it in an effect will be the same each time.
I understand the CDs are time coded however when the CD hit 1:22 its the same each time it hits 1:22 so if you change it at 1:22 its going to be changed the same way at 1:22 .... you figure it out

if its the set up change the set up .... STOP BEING NARROW MINDED and ill stop being dumb

DjLogan, no one is being narrow minded.

What you are asking for is impossible

What you are asking for is like trying to extract the eggs from a cake to fry them sunny side up. especially when you can just grab a couple more eggs out the fridge(midi)




lets look at flanging
en.wikipedia.org

so you do understand that the control signal is clock information, right? If you apply flanging to that clock signal you will be sending TWO clock signals to the program. How could the program determine which signal is the correct time? besides that sending the two different signals at the same time as if they were one signal it would be difficult to read ether one because they are mashed together.

Imagine a digital clock displaying two different times simultaneously, could you read the clock?
DjLogan answer the above question, maybe you could understand how what you are asking can not be done



how about delay
en.wikipedia.org

again, you do understand that the control signal is clock information, right? If you apply delay to that clock signal you will be sending MULTIPLE clock signals to the program. How could the program determine which signal is the correct time? besides that sending the various different signals at the same time as if they were one signal it would be impossible to pick one out to read because they are all mashed together into one signal.

Imagine a digital clock displaying many different times simultaneously, could you read the clock?
DjLogan answer the above question, maybe you could understand how what you are asking can not be done





how about reverb
en.wikipedia.org

and again, you do understand that the control signal is clock information, right? If you apply reverb to that clock signal you will be sending HUNDREDS of clock signals to the program. How could the program determine which signal is the correct time? besides that sending the hundreds of different signals at the same time as if they were one signal it would be impossible to pick one out to read because they are all mashed together into one signal.

Imagine a digital clock displaying hundreds of different times simultaneously, could you read the clock?
DjLogan answer the above question, maybe you could understand how what you are asking can not be done





Can a the program detect a change in speed/pitch? of course, thats what it does. But thats about all. these other effects distort, damage, and rearrange the signal in a way that makes it completely unreadable. You can not simply program it to recognize a the signal, because the data in the signal is destroyed by adding the effect.

Can you pour water on the water color painting but still recognize it?

Can you blend ten television signals on one TV and make any sense of it?

Can you print out a hundred documents on to one sheet of paper and read any of it?

Can you pour ten glasses of different temperature water into a bucket then take the temperature of the bucket to determine the temperature of each glass?

need I continue?




And that only deals with the distortion of the control signal. you have quite another problem having the program matching the effect that you apply to the signal. sure you could probably get it to decide if you put a reverb, flange or delay. But how can you get it to recognize any of the parameters? how could it possibly tell what kind of reverb you put on the signal?




DjLogan, if you just dismiss everyone telling you that it cant be done as "narrow minded" you are doing yourself a disservice. I could care less if it could be done or not, I have no vested interest in it being workable or not (outside the possibilities of exotic technologies). You should really investigate what is being explained to you instead of just dismissing it, that is you being narrow minded if anyone is.

just answer one question: how could you possibly read a digital clock displaying more then one time symultaneously?

I will keep an open mind and leave the possibility open.

o.w.n.e.d.

About 20 posts before...

$10 says he still doesn't get it and starts accusing the product engineers of being "close-minded"

CHANGE the set up?

ok. change the set up.

that will mean redesigning the system.

which will mean buying a new box.

that good enough for you?

Ummm impossible ? cause you say so ? or your little fan club there ?
Do they give you a courtesy reach-around too?

We are not talking about a digital clock here or a humans ability to decipher information.

We are talking about digital information 1111s and 00000s

Again this is not a hardare issue its programing ... possibly a change in the contol CD

The control CD has Time DATA from 0 to 15 min

EVERYTIME YOU PLAY THIS CD IT HAS THE EXACT INFORMATION AS IT REACHES EACH TIME
REGARDLESS WHICH CD YOU USE

with that information being a constant any effect would also be a constant

the effect is not arbitrary it effects the signal in a specific way which you have illustrated for us (me and your fan club here)

This is mathematics, programing and research.
believe me im not suggesting your pea brain figure this out ... leave that for people that actually know what they are talking about


I am usually not this argumentitive but it pisses me of when people like you and your fan club dismiss valid logical ideas just because you have a difference of opinion. If everybody had the attitude "it cant be done, its impossible" then there would be no advances in technology.

I dont see a serato logo under your name so i would guess you dont work for Serato
with that being said you have no right to be judgmental or bash anyone for their ideas ...
This forum is for ideas and suggestions for how to improve this product ...
You have no right to comment on what can and cant be done...
That is up to Serato to judge and that is way they have made these forums to see what us the public wants ...

Again this is not a hardware issue its programing ... possibly a change in the contol CD

That is up to Serato to judge and that is why they have made these forums to see what us the public wants ...

(i should have proof read!!!)

Ok, just my humble opinion: few years back - i am sure there were people that would doubt the concept of SSL and would stamp it as Impossible. In fact, we all are witnesses to technological advancements, and have seen alot of impossible things come to reallity. I am not siding with anybody here but i would moss deff give everybody a benefit of a doubt.

My point is, wheather concept is impossible or possible - lets leave it to those who take the challenge of making it happen or not. Idea is an idea, and no matter how crazy or unacceptable it might sound, idea drives progress.

Speacking of which, i think it be sick to have SSL re-wired to Ableton Live... Things you could do with it??? That will instantly take care of "Need FX" requests... MMMMM

One other thought I have on this issue is most newer CD players have the ability to have their firmware updated to give added functionality.
Denon has put out updates for various models to help them interact better with Serato in the past.
The solution may not only lie with Serato or Rane but Denon, American Dj or any other manufactuer in question.

Thank you Deo for your comments

You're right DjLogan, timecode is just ones and zeros. Let's delve into that a bit deeper, shall we? Because the timecode Serato is using is propreitary, we'll use something a little more open for the sake of this, SMPTE timecodes: en.wikipedia.org

Here's the breakdown of basic linear SMPTE timecode, as it is used in recording studios all over the world:

The bits of the longitudinal SMPTE code:

0..3: Frame units
4..7: user-bits field 1
8..9: Frame tens
10: 1=drop frame format (frame 0 and 1 omitted from first second of each minute, but included when minutes divides by ten; approximates 29.97 frame/s)
11: 1="color frame", i.e. the time code is intentionally synchronised with a color TV field sequence.
12..15: user-bits field 2
16..19: seconds units
20..23: user bits field 3
24..26: second tens
27: Bi-phase mark-correction bit; set or cleared so every 80-bit word has an even number of zeros. In a linear timecode system, this ensures that there is no net current flow, and also allows a technician to read the bi-phase coding timing with an oscilloscope, without the signal inverting itself continually. Modern equipment regenerates the time code to a fixed timing in the video vertical interval, so this is far less needed than before.
28..31: user bits field 4
32..35: minutes unit digit
36..39: user bits field 5
40..42: minutes tens digit
43: binary group flag bit (with bit 59, 43,59 = 00 = no format for user bits, 10 = eight bit format, 01, 11 are unassigned and reserved).
44..47: user bits field 6
48..51: hours units
52..55: user bits field 7
56..57: hours tens
58: unused, reserved, should transmit zero and ignore on receive for compatibility
59: binary group flag bit (see bit 43 for encoding)
60..63: user bits field 8
64..79: sync word, should be 0011 1111 1111 1101


So now you can see the sort of complexity that's involved in a timecode signal. Knowing this, I'm sure you can now see why it's prohibitively difficult to mash that signal up with phasers and flangers and delays and whatnot while still expecting the SSL software to interpret the thing. If the software gets even slightly confused and switches two bits up, it can make a drastic change to the timecode signal.

The problem is that you're thinking of the timecode signal as audio that can be effected, when it is in fact very precise digital data that needs to be transmitted cleanly in its entirety for SSL to function. Misplace even one bit, and suddenly SSL doesn't "know" where in the song you are anymore. It may sound like a "tone" to your ears, but it's no more a plain musical "tone" than a fax or modem handshake signal.

Hmmm, don't mean to cause any arguments but dj penguin, you just gave me an idea. i will test this theory at home simply out of curiosity, connect my cdj's to SSL, apply effects and see how effected timecode signal will affect Serato.

will let you know the results of my experiments.

I can tell you the results right now: It won't work any more than putting a phaser on a fax transmission would result in a clear printout.

But hey, I'm just some random jackass on the Internet. Don't take my word for it, listen to the skilled Serato engineers that built this product:



"Scratch LIVE interprets the signal coming out of the CD player, and uses this information to control the play back of the files on your computer.

Any audio processing performed on the signal before it reaches the hardware interface, such as key correction, will scramble the signal making it illegible to Scratch LIVE."

scratchlive.net


Seriously though, when it fails to work, please do come back and confirm that the Serato guys know what they're talking about when they discuss their own product.

I am afraid, but it seems like you have no clue about how "it all" works.

so what happens if fx warp the 1's and 0's so ssl can't recognize that they're 1's and 0's and ssl has no idea what it's reading since ssl can only recognize 1's and 0's?

Look at the breakdown of linear SMPTE timecode I posted above. Then read the links nik39 posted about what those effects are actually doing to the source audio.

Then you will realize that the effects are creating hundreds upon thousands of EXTRA ones and zeroes. It is this huge number of extra ones and zeroes, which are not aligned with the original signal, that confuse SSL (and they would confuse any other app trying to read the timecode.)

DJ Logan, the only name calling is coming from you.

You did not answer any questions I asked that might help understand.

There is no fan club, Ive never even heard of most people in this thread.

Did you PM any of the staff? no

It is not a software issue, and its not even a hardware issue, it is a technology issue. It is impossible, maybe it could be done 100 years from now, but I doubt that (unlike SSL, I started using smpte in the 80s)

Even if it could be done, why when you could just midi trigger?

this is is a stupid argument because you are bent on it there being a programming solution without understanding how it works.

hey man, i dont doubt neither you or serato engineers for that matter, the fact is i had to give it a test so that i can avoid problems when it matters, such as having SSL freak out on me just cuz flagner got pressed on cdj by accident or whatever.

in any case, SSL didnt freak out, didnt crash, didnt start jumping back & forth, simply played the song no matter what built in effect i applied to it. although it might be different with other brands.

Now that is both interesting and unexpected.

are you sure it didn't go into internal mode after the effect was put on?

actually i've tried only relative & absolute modes, no internal. given that i have cheep cdj's for home setup (pioneer cdj200s) but they do have some crappy built in effects (Jet and whawha). those effects didn't affect the playback at all. As i said SSL kept going about its business as if nothing, no skipping, no chocking, just smooth.

penguin, this actually can be explained, i'll have to rip the Scratch cd's and analyze it in SoundForge, just to see what audio data it contains. Cuz in theory if it contains no audio data at all, nothing can and will be affected.

is DJLogan still arguing about this? I'm tired of people arguing when they dont know shit about shit.

Of course it is audio data, what else are you going to find on an audio cd? If you listen to it you will hear audio. What else is going to come through the analog outs? The same audio on the vinyl is in the cd.

It is a 1k tone offset between right and left with some added noise to create a "noise map" -or something like that.

Ive never tried putting any effects on the tone because I cant imagine any reason where it would make any sense at all. But I am not surprised that that SSL would still operate with a flange on it because it is built for stability but I doubt it would track very well for scratching.

No mater what, the the more destructive the effect the less chance SSL will track the signal. Its the same with vinyl wear, at some point it will be worn to a point where it is completely unreadable. I can guarantee you without having tried it, if you put a 100% wet reverb on the signal it will not track. Not only will it not track, it will never track, no matter what type of exotic technology is invented in the next 100 years.

putting an effect on the control signal is simply the dumbest thing Ive ever heard, especially because you can simply put whatever effect you choose directly on the audio you want to effect. even if you can extract piss out of water, you piss in the toilet and pour water in your cup, dont pis in it.


If you really want buttons on your CD players (which I understand) get the them to put some midi triggers on the CD player of your choice...

because this idea is just ass backwards. you might as well be trying to get a donkey to push his cart from a mile away.

It is impractical
It will never work
It is impossible

im part of akiems fan club.

some old school SAT problems...

logan : understands what he's talking about
george bush : president

lol.......btw, I`m against adding effects and vst support in Serato..... I already have everything I need from it, and wouldn`t like to sacrifice stability which is The Most important thing from a system like this. And why compare always serato with the VDJ?? Virtual DJ is way beyond Serato`s league , and can`t even compare the two ...... Just my 2 cents ...

actually it can contain lots of other different stuff and not just frequency footprint. audio data itself can be filled with various markers, meta tags, loops points and other instructional information, as well as SMTP timecode. even silent cd tracks can have information other than audio, as far as lenght of the track goes and even Text for instance. so thats' my answer to your "what else can be found on audio cd".

but that's not the point. the point is: if i want to analyze or experiment something, i dont need anyone to negate or patronize my plans.

oh and to make it clear, i really don't care much of internal effects in SSL. if i have the need for FX i either use built in fx on my mixer or external fx boxes.

SMPTE is audio the way I figure because you can hear it
anything you can hear is audio
if its coming out the analog its audible (depending on frequency of course)

yes its audio data

is it going to be some type of inaudible data coming out of the analog?

no

aka of course its audio, what else is going to be coming out the analog?


go ahead and experiment, but I can tell you what you will see

I 1k tone offset between R and L, the peaks will very between two amplitudes (maybe three I forget) and they will be randomly distributed you wont find a pattern.

If you listen to it it will sound like 'woooooooooooooooooooooooo'



still tho, putting effects on it will destroy the information

classic :)

Just check this link and see what else can be recorded onto audio cd that isnt audio en.wikipedia.org

don't do it for me, just do it to educate yourself.

i know what's coming out of analog output, and if you missed the point of my argument before, i repeat - audio cd can contain instructional information that aint designated for human ears (or is not audible and is not coming out of analog outputs) but rather for electronic equipment to interpret that information and act accordingly.

Yes it is true that you can encode information in frequencies outside the range of human hearing. If it is coming out analog channels I would still categorize it as "audio" and not only because it could be heard by other creatures like dogs, bats, and wales.

now, as I have been doing through out this whole stupid argument, Ive been calling it "audio data". Which to me means audio that is organized into data.

its still audio

not getting into various cd formats, the SSL cd doesnt have any more function then the vinyl, and actually if Im not mistaken the vinyl has more code on it. So pretty much we are talking about what can be encoded on the vinyl. So we are dealing with information that can be picked up by the stylus on the vinyl. Sure you can still deal with some frequencies outside of human hearing, but I would still call it audio

audio data

If it comes out the analog aka can be piped out some freaking speakers, it is AUDIO.

trust me, posting links to whatever types of codecs can be encoded on a CD is less then educational or even matters in this discussion since Ive already told you exactly what the control signal is. a 1k tone (which is audible) with some random white noise mixed in creating a "noise map" which the software recognizes.

is a 1k tone audio? of course it is

you can hear the freaking tone painfully easily if there is still any sort of question about it being audio or not




and it would be rather idiotic to only use frequencies outside of the human hearing range to stream data on cd or vinyl (I would still call it audio)


Deo, where you are mistaken is that applying an audio effect to a data stream will have no effect because its "not audio" (even tho it is audio)

reverb for example, it is going to destroy any data (audio or otherwise) that it is applied to.


Deo, have you done your experiment yet?

dude, first you need to relax, and second go through my posts and see who turned this discussion into argument. i bet when i said, the effects on my cdj didnt affect control signal and SSL went on playing as if nothing, you didnt expect that to happend, although prior to that you also stated that would not be possible and so on. and you were quite surprised to find that out too.
so again instead of being negative and marking everything as "not possible" why dont you just relax, sit back and wait for results. or if you have shortage on patience, just do it yourself, rip the control cd, open the wav in Sound Forge and see what it is. just use facts for your arguments and not what you believe is right or wrong.

actually, vinyl cant store anything below 20hz and above 20khz, which in fact is human hearing range. if you go below 20, niddle won't track the singal proper if at all.

see the whole point of me stating the facts aint to cause arguments or prove anyone wrong (thats the last thing i want), but rather find out why effects applied to 1khz tone coming out of control cd didn't affect the control signal at all. in theory flanger & phase effect is nothing but similar signals placed on top of one another with bit offset cancelling each other out. and 1khz tone is no matter what is still a signal, which by all means should be affected. and thus should, again in theory and according to you make signal unrecognisable to SSL. but as i said before this is not the case. thats not whats happening when control signal is being passed through flanger & wha-wha filter.

So this is leading me to believe that control cd/vinyl might be using old school CV signal, which also back in a day was a alternative to MIDI and was passed through analog outputs, to transmit timeclock messages and various other information.

dude, I didnt know I was upset. discussion/argument whatever



Nope quite wrong, actually what I said was "I am not surprised that that SSL would still operate with a flange on it" to quote correctly. Because it has been my experience that SSL has been designed to cope with various types of signal degradation and remain operable. But that would not include a 100% wet reverb and delay for example. I would not be surprised, I know without testing that if you put the CS through those type of effects that it could not operate at all. So yes, like I have already said, it is impossible for SSL to work with effects on the control signal. So, if anyone wants to try and put 01% slight effect, watch it continue to operate and call it 'possible' fine, go ahead keep fantasizing.



Im not being negative, Im being realistic and accurate. I do not care if it would work or not. And I would never use it because it would be such a stupid solution to begin with. The only thing I care about is having a clear understanding of the way it operates, for myself and all of us. I hope you do find error in what Im saying so I can correct that error.

The thing is that I already ripped the control signal and investigated its properties a couple years ago. I also asked questions about it and was given answers to those questions. Thats why I keep telling you that it is a 1k tone, offset between right and left, mixed with white noise. The random white noise causes a randomly distributed differentiation in the amplitude of the peeks in the tone. This creates a mappable signal. This is the third time Ive given this description. Maybe Im just making 'specific guesses' about the specific properties of the control signal or maybe I actually know a little something about what Im talking about. The latter being true, just maybe I also know what Im talking about when I say impossible. If anyone is being negative its the person doubting what Im saying without any investigation, reasoning or question asking. Go ahead just keep telling me I dont know what Im talking about for whatever reason.

So Ive been sitting back and waiting for your results, Ive got mine already. Im not being impatient, just answering your posts after I read them. Maybe you should do your investigation before you reply.




Thats quite an interesting and exceptional coincidence that the limits of vinyl just so happens to exactly mirror the limits of human hearing, how convenient. lol






Well like I keep repeating, its not just a 1k tone. Probably to help with stability SSL is able to continue operating with a doubling of the CS, although I would bet some functionality or performance is lost, perhaps not. But once again, if you drop something like a wet reverb or delay on the signal it will not operate correctly, the map will be destroyed and the tone will be destroyed. simple and plain.



I wish it was simply public domain old school CV, but its not. Yes, it is 1k tone, but mixed with that 1k tone is a specific configuration of white noise creating a map. This map is specific to SSL and is proprietary information. If it were only a 1k tone anyone could make control vinyls because you cant copyright a 1k tone. But the specific Serato Control Signal is proprietary and 'owned' by Serato because it is a map specific to SSL. Thats what Ive been told.

AKIEM on point. One correction though, it is not white noise, it is more pink noise, as it is a pseudo random "noise".

Deo, please research before you post any further speculations.

Here are some hints:
www.scratchlive.net <- read this complete thread before you make any further false assumptions about the control signal.

nik39, i was making theoretical assumptions, which is quite normal and acceptable during the discussion of any given subject matter. oh and yes i was and still am researching, again not to prove anyone wrong but simply to know more behind the SSL, which i believe is also normal.

thanks for the link, interesting reading.



AKIEM, no it's not coincidence, simply matter of physics. vynil records were not invented for whales or dolphins. :D ha ha
the official vinyl specifications for frequency range/response is 20hz to 25kHz, but since not all the niddles track frequencies above 18kHz and due to the fact that frequencies above 20kHz generate intense vibrations on the grove and lower frequencies make groove wide - it's very difficult for niddle to track the grove. thats the reason why sound before being pressed onto vinyl is being compressed and low frequencies converted to mono. vinyl has its limitations, even tho these limitations add color and flavor to the sound stored on it, still it is a limitation. i wont go into details, but i'm sure you know what i'm talking about.


anyway,
last nite, i did put my SSL to helluva test and here are the results.
1) yes it is a 1k tone stored on control cd, to be precise 991hz at -16db. i also analyzed data flow from control cd to detect any CV/Gate but nothing. so i do confirm CS is smiply proprietary 1k tone.

2) engaging effect on cd player will not affect the playback (absolute mode), however if you try to navigate through the played song while effect is engaged, SSL will not respond correctly. It will not fast forward, reverse, pause, jump to cue point, it will simply chocke. So those of you who use CDJ's should not use built-in Effects, unless your intention is to make SSL choke.

if anyone really has the need to use FX, use those of your mixer or loop external effects into your mixer.

No doubt. But... we already have someone here who knows the fact... . The discussion went like:

AKIEM: The control signal works like this.
Deo: I think it may work like that... bla bla
AKIEM: Yes, you may think, but the fact is that it works like this.
Deo: Oh, but my assumption is that it works like that .... bla bla
AKIEM: No.
nik39: Search the forum, read this link from the developers, it works as AKIEM described
Deo: Let me proof that my assumption is correct... bla bla


Didn't you just write "thanks for the link, interesting reading."? If you think that the CS is simply a proprietary 1k tone (what is a proprietary tone btw?) you are wrong. There is data embedded. 1kHz is just the carrier signal.


Don't you think the moderators would know how it works? If so... read the thread which I have linked to. Take the blue or the red pill, it is your decision...



Deo takes the

[ ] red pill
[ ] blue pill

and swallows it with a glass of water. [please check]

yo, you can take your sarcasm to where it counts.. ok... and if you have a problem with me trying to find things out on my own, thats your problem, and as such you should handle it on your own.

how about this, take the chill pill.

and by the way, with whole matrix dialogue, on a nerd scale from 1 to 10, you just red-lined.

You hurt my feelings.

I just found it funny... Neo took the red pill. Which one will Deo take? Get it? Red, Neo, Blue, Deo? lol.

Yes, a nerdish loool.

...

Not really.

---

The actual problem is not you trying to find out things - thats cool and fine. But you should know when you have to be silent and just educate yourself. A link has been given, and you still claim that the CS is just a proprietary 1kHz tone w/o futher information embedded.

i didnt say there was no further information embeded, i said No CV/Gate info was found.

oh and i dunno if you ever experienced the "cool" factor in your life, but puting words and pointing fingers "he said that, no she said that" doesn't quiify as cool. i know what i said, i was there and i wrote that. and in case if you missed my points be my guest and go through my posts, it wont take much time but if your logical cuircutry isn't corrupted you'll understand what i was talking about.

please do me a favor, don't patronise me. just be cool, and respect other people's opinion.

That comes from the keyboard of someone who just used the "nerdness" scale.

Haha.


Look, I respect other peoples opinion, if it is an opinion. There are facts. Non debatable facts. Don't mix up facts with opinions.

To each his own opinion, but facts are facts. The mods have posted facts about how the CS works. No need or even place for opinions on these facts.

and could you point to where did i disagree to facts???

in fact, when you dropped the link to those facts, i remember thanking you for it. and have i had that information before, i wouldn't have theoretical assumtions on how CS works would i. but you went on bashin & pointing fingers: "he said that, i said that". so there wasnt' a place for your sarcasm, and you mos deff shouldn't be sarcastic to me...

I'll take it as a misunderstanding. Issue closed.

um, so then is it happenstance, chance of physical nature, or by design? Now it would be pretty odd if vinyl just so happened to perfectly fit the hearing range of dolphins and whales especially because they dont have any hands to scratch with!

never mind dun



so like I said, you can add information on vinyl that no human is going to hear. which was the original point of contention. and doesnt even mater in this discussion.

"Sure you can still deal with some frequencies outside of human hearing, but I would still call it audio"




What is "proprietary 1k tone"?????







Pretty much what I have been saying all along.




and pretty much what Ive been suggesting all along.

nice

ah yes, pink noise, I forgot there was so much information packed in there

yes




I think the problem was you were telling me I was being negative, didnt know what I was talking about, needed to relax, needed education, reversed my words, etc.

it is by design. or do you still wonder when u take a crap why toiled fits yours and not monkey's ass????



"negative"? i think so, and sarcastic for sure...

"need education"? oh i think so, at least as far as Red Book and vinyl format and specifications.

"didnt know what I was talking about". i never said that, you assuming it. i, on the other hand was trying to figure out why effects on cdj didnt affect the playback, while you went on with your format war.

"reversed my words"??? that's not my style, dont confuse me with somebody else.

if i am not mistaken, i confirmed & agreed to your earlier statements, and if you somehow failed to notice my point before, it was to test the stability of SSL, and not prove you or anybody esle for that matter wrong. don't flatter yourself you not that important.



everything on vinyl is audible. sounds can be layered and hidden/masked using compression method but using studio equipment it's quite possible to bring those hidden frequencies/sounds to hearable levels.

honestly this is getting annoying.
peace

*Unsubscribes*

this thread is too smart for me :P

guess I dont fallow, so I dont know if its funny or not



how about this: If you close your eye and wish hard enough anything is possible, even reading CS through effects!?!!! :)



what is it that I would need this education for? what measure of knowledge is it that I am supposed to be measured by? What business is it of yours?

The funny thing about this thread is that I have simply stated facts as I see them, some opinion about the subject. But never said much of anything about the people discussing here. Meanwhile Ive been called, negative, narrow-minded, needing education, ass, need to relax, and so on.

I might have made fun of an idea for its absurdity, but not the person, and only to illustrate.

so...


In essence, I think so "needing education" and so on..




no, I was not assuming, what Ive been trying to tell you was based on the fact that Ive already 'analyzed' the CS years ago and asked lots of questions until my understanding of it was satisfied. I made an educated and correct guess about how SSL would operate under whatever effects, because I have an understanding about how it works. you assumed I was wrong or didnt know what I was talking about.



Im not.

Deo: ...i bet when i said, the effects on my cdj didnt affect control signal and SSL went on playing as if nothing, you didnt expect that to happend, although prior to that you also stated that would not be possible and so on. and you were quite surprised to find that out too.

Akiem: Nope quite wrong, actually what I said was "I am not surprised that that SSL would still operate with a flange on it" to quote correctly.


aka, you got it twisted, as if you did not read not in my sentence which would reverse its meaning. Which is what I said "reversed my words"


thanks for letting me know.
I did notice where your test agreed with what I was saying all along.
hope the process was educational for you






"Deo, where you are mistaken is that applying an audio effect to a data stream will have no effect because its "not audio" (even tho it is audio)"

This might have been where you took some kind of offense because I said you were "mistaken". I did not mean to be offensive, just showing where you mistaken, I think we can agree now.

I think now you will agree that what was being suggested is quite "impossible" just like Ive been saying all along and I think what you were calling me "negative" for. Maybe you are now negative as well, or how would that work?

whoa, you're very good at quoting me... anyway, i am too tired for quoting you back, neah...

this whole topic went negative, and me being negative - well thats how i react to sarcasm & there was plenty of sarcasm launched at me from evey angle just for applying freaking flange effect to control signal. but you're right, it's none of my business if you need education or not.

anyway, i am out of here
peace.

That is your problem. There is a reason why sarcasm started to appear.

WOW you two bitches still cryin this is not possible?
Again get your heads out of your asses ... nothing is impossible
Ok you say the CONTROL CD can not be distorted while I still say its a matter of mathematics .... Two clocks showing 12:00 is still 12:00 dumb ass .... and even is it showed 11:59 and 12:00 then 12:00 is the actual time as far as the time code goes ... MATH ...
Again slowly e a c h e f f e ct wi ll h a v e a specific w ay it handles t h e s treeeeeeeaaaaaammmmmm figure out the effect and you have the solution .....

BUT hey ill conceide that hey you may be right ... doesnt matter this whole thing staretd as a suggestion .... or a wish list for Seratos people to figure out
Id like to use the full abilities of my Denon ...

The Denon 9000 and 5000 both have Alpha track and the software that runs them can be updated
If the control signal was mirrored on the alpha track .... one signal would be pure while the other could be effected ... tell serato what to do ?
Let me guess this is impossble TOO
Your an ASS shut up and stop belittling people for there ideas

AGAIN ITS NOT FOR YOU TO JUDGE IMPOSSIBILITIES ITS UP TO RANE AND SERATO

Let's keep the name calling out of this thread please. Lots of interesting reading and great info. Thanks.

how the hell did i miss this thread AKIEM trying to school these cats is worth the read alone.

my punctuation keys are broken on this keyboard too thanks

so how does alpha track work?

nik, there is reason for everything but i believe i was reasonable enough as not to get that sarcasm aimed at me. and there was need to take out the anger caused by others on me either.

as far as my problem, i am aware of my problem and that aint up for your discussion neither will i appreciate you pocking your nose in it. just hold on to your own ones.

peace.

If you don't want anything you say or said to be discussed... don't post. Easy as that. This is a public forum.

oh so if its a public forum, its ok to be disrespectfull to others??? besides i wasnt discussing my problems here. what in the hell gave you that idea??? or again you assume?

Careful. They're going to call you an AKIEM fan. :P

Deo, I don't see how anyone was being disrespectful to you (unless I missed something). E-motions run high on this board for some reason.

I am not disrespectful and I never meant that it is okay to be disrespectfull, but the kind of ignorance you are showing is actually a bit bothering.

However, the point is not that we need to discuss your problem, that was not my intention, if you feel uncomfortable, scrape that line from my post. What I meant was, that there is a reason for the sarcasm, and also that if you dont want to understand the things... there is not much we can do. Therefor, it is not our problem.

actually i've stated valid points in my posts before:

audio cd can contain information other than sound itself, not just frequency footprint, or frequiencies outside of human hearing range. you can dispute this but it wont change the facts. Red Book specs are clear and available for anyone interested.

SSL control cd/vinyl contains information that isn't just audio signal. i repeated this few times, my only concern was if there was any CV/Gate signature but apparently not. And the reason i believed it could be CV/Gate or something similar is because vinyl can't hold any digital information, it's pure analog (just like CV/Gate). As i agreed and confirmed proprietary coding is being used, and by proprietary i mean designed specifically for SSL hardware/software. If it was only audio signal embeded with information beyond human hearing range - theoretically it would be possible to use any other audio interface to interpret that signal and make SSL work without its own breakout box. wouldn't you agree? of course on a software side, the code that recognises hardware needs to be modified, but in essence SSL breakout box is an audio interface that can send/recieve/pass through signal. It has AD/DA converters, doesn't it?

nik39, the link you posted before, as i said was interesting, and explained alot, but you posted it when i was already done with researching all that on my own. and to all my valid theoretical assumptions you replied with



i believe i was researching at that point, and theoretical assumtions are quite different then false assumtions. i'm sure you know the difference.

anyway, i'm done, i said my piece. you can get hang on words and chase down each sentence i've posted for political correctness, but i really don't care..

AKIEM basically said what was said in the link, *before* you started your assumptions. But you preferred to ignore his posts and to go on with your assuming.



Sure. There is a difference between assumtion and assumption.

I just don't understand... Why do you need to assume something if someone already posted the facts?


And you were wrong the few times.

Even though you have been proven wrong you still think you are right. That pretty much prooves your ignorance.


Your reasoning makes no sense. All the parts in the signal chain (includes vinyl, carts, needles, cable, amps etc) are normal audio parts. A "proprietary" digital signal which would not be an analog signal would be filtered out at some point.

However, lets imagine for a minute your reasoning would had made sense:
djdecks.be <- click

Djdecks works with any ASIO soundcard aka non proprietary.

Have a nice day.

cuz i need facts... do you understand that??? or simply you believe whatever you're told???



sure. i didnt claim i was right about control signal, i was like i said trying to figure out how it works, and not stating my assumtions as FACTS.



oh my god, you're stubborn or refuse to deal with reality outside of your perception. you clearly have problem understanding what i wrote, or choose on purpose to be an asshole. whichever it is, it's up to you.



i don't think i was disputing that.... dude, you clearly miss the point of what i am saying. i think i was saying that proprietary part is what software (SSL) recognises and not AMP or cable or whatever... pretty much the same thing u said above...

And djdeck is a software that can read SSL control cd/vinyl and works with audio interfaces... am i correct? that was not my point again, my point was SSL software working with any other audio interface.

Alpha track means you can play two tracks off the same CD ...

Nik and Akeim must suck A LOT of DICKS to get this big a following ... Cause they have no clue what they are talking about ...

Yes this is a public forum ... Again this forum was made to give suggestions or feedback to Rane and Serato with regards on how to improve their product or what we would like to see

UNLESS YOU WORK FOR RANE OR SERATO SHUT THE HELL UP about what can and cant be done because you dont know JACK SHIT and its not your place to say ...

Second time name calling, DJ Logan.


SSL could work with any other interface.

SSL vinyls can work with a different software.
SSl vinyls can work with a different hardware.
SSL software could work with a different hardware.

So whats your point?

you know that for a fact? cuz i got 2 pro grade interfaces at home, which SSL didnt recognise, even tho they were wired just the same way as with SSL breakout box. i am asking for real, if you know how to get SSL recognise my audio interface lemme know, that be great.

and as far as my point, just read what you quoted. or even better read my previous posts.

I didn't say SSL works with any other interface, I am saying it could work. Why shouldn't it? I am keen to hear your explanation.

and that's exactly what i said before, why shouldnt it... it has AD/DA converters (analog to digital and vice versa) and is acting just like audio interface. so why do you disagree with me>? and where didnt it make sence.

That makes no sense. It's called sense. Not sence.



That makes no sense, itis wrong. It is not specifically for SSL hardware.



What do you mean with "if it was only audio signal embedded"? It is only audio signal embedded.


I'll give you the benefit of a doubt... see what you're coming up with next. :)

thanks for correcting my gramar, now i see that you argue for the sake of argument, and indeed chose to be an asshole. i am not sorry for calling the name, you just left me no other choice.



oh i see so i can hook it up and control Yahoo Messenger or Firefox then. btw it's not itis, the proper english version would be IT IS. and do me a favor, do not point out gramar mistakes of others when your gramar sucks as much.



yo, just few posts ago, you and aikem claimed that it contained other data along with 1khz tone, and reffered to it as audio data. now you say it is only "audio"??? WTF? are you saying that within that audio there is no bit information embedded?

and i don't need your benefit of a doubt, it's clear to me that you don't take when somebody actually makes more sense then you. you refuse to understand for whatever reason, what i've been saying all along, you adapt & change your statements and in fact state your assumtions as facts. i am tired of having to explaing everything to you, i get the impression that i'm dealing with 11 year old kid. honestly this topic feels like what a fucking waste of time.

Hm, don't be offended. Actually I am thankful for someone correcting me... you don't seem to belong to that category.



lol, you take things too serious dude. Let's see... english is your native language? Too bad for you.

And thanks for correcting me, but obviously "itis" was a typing mistake, while you like to repeat your mispelled sence.


I think you have a lack of understanding the simple and basic terms. Audio signal can contain data. Audio signal is in fact data. Geez.



Sure I do, I have no problems acknowledging when someone else is right and I am wrong. Don't hate, just because you have no clue.

Thanks for spelling sense right :)

you welcome, glad to be of help. I wouldn't want to be part of that category for anything. you seem to like it very much.



"is english your native language?" that's the right way to say it... and "too bad for me"??? what in the hell are you trying to say man? are you shouting words in random order, because you can't think of anything else?



oh, hmm i think i mispelled sense once, but i guess you must be wasted drunk, since it appeared to you multiple times. again if you want to argue about something, have facts handy to back your statements up, otherwise you look like an idiot. but what do i care.



really? whoa, what an obvious truth you stated. i thought audio signal was just
urban legend.....



it's obvious who suffers from it. and hate? i really couldn't care less.



hey, enjoy it while it lasts. hopefully it will make you sleep better.

P.S. copy my post and run it through spell checker, see if i mispelled something else. i wouldn't want my grammar errors to give you nightmares.

Oh, my bad. You're right, you only mispelled it once. My apologies.



You make me laugh. Don't act like you knew the obvious before. :) We both know what you previously said. Anyone can read it.

Now go on posting your assumptions. :)

Wow, just wow. Nik39 is the unofficial mod of Feature suggestions. Konix is the unofficial mod of the help forum. Both are pretty knowledgeable on SSL & tech matters in general. Maybe you guys should listen to what they say, as it makes sense. Arguing with them is silly, calling them names is begging to be banned. Now back to our regularly scheduled program, already in progress...

Wow you can count to two im impressed ...
BTW i didnt call you any name with that statement I just said you suck a lot of dick ... If I were to call you a name Id call you a cocksucker but hey im not calling you a name

Unofficial ? well get back to me when your official ...

As for name calling, both dumb and dumber their started the bull with calling everyone stupid for their ideas ...
OOHHHH NOOOO I could get banned ....
What we have said also makes sense but unfortunently its contrary to their little fan club ....
Is he knowledgable because he says so? Do you take is word for it?

If he were that good he would be an official mod then maybe I would listen

Until then he is nothing more then you or I (A USER)

Just because someone say it is, doesnt mean it is ...
Has Serato given them their seal of approval? No still no logo under their name ...

oh oh oh let me proof read myself

Do you take HIS word for it ?

Oh and by the way a Mods job is to moderate not critisize or belittle members

You have a little more proof reading to do there... :)

If makes sense = suggesting the impossible, then...

Party on Wayne, party on Garth.

LOL anyother cult member joins the party ... its amazing how anything gets invented or how problems get solved with people like you in the world ...

Im bored arguing possible / impossible with peons like you ...

I feel like im surrounded by MORONS ...

IT NOT FOR YOU TO SAY WHAT IS POSSIBLE OR IMPOSSIBLE EITHER SO PISS OFF

DjLogan,

With that attitude you're bound to get banned around these parts fairly quickly.

Let's keep it civil please. It's cool to read through everyone's point of view without all the name calling or the disrespectful stuff. You say some on here are cocksuckers? It takes one to know one... right?

personally I think you guys should open a new topic in the general forum, as you've fucked this topic to death here.

apology accepted. but in the future, don't let it happen again. makes you less credible.



i'm glad you laughing, i just hope not through tears. and i agree, i do know what i said, it's in my posts and for anybody to see. on the other hand i doubt that you know the meaning of it... cuz in my opinion, you just browsed through my posts without even grasping the idea behind them (maybe your english ain't that good or some meaning got lost in translation for you, or maybe you're not quite familiar with audio engineering terminology, dunno), and then you assume that i stated something different, just like with whole "sence" argument before. see, the thing is, as far as audio goes, i could school you on it for decades, cuz i make my living on it for quite long time now, and i'm pretty fucking good at it.



yeah, nik39 is knowledgeable as far as The Matrix movie dialogue goes, he has shown he knows that shit word for word. but as far as audio signal - i think my expertise in that area counts for something.

DJ Logan doesn't know shit about shit. Ya, i said it.

Nice cliche another one goes REAP WHAT YOU SOW
Which if you are unware of the meaning ... You dont want me to disrespect you Dont disrespect me ...
As far as not knowing shit, you may be right I never claimed I knew what I was talking about anyway ...
I merely presented an Idea ... and was called stupid for it ... by people who have no place ....
Im sorry but I thought the topic of this forum is feature ideas ... I want my effects to work on my DENON ... Thats an Idea no need for debate

People say it cant be done .... but mathematically it can it needs the right programing and algorythm to accomplish the task ... but whatever maybe im wrong I dont know shit
and
My other option of using the alpha track feature of the Denon maybe that wont work either .... yep im full of shit dont know anything and dont make sense

GIVE YOUR HEAD A SHAKE
Where is SERATO to comment on this topic ?
Are you SERATO ? Is your Fan club SERATO ?
How bout RANE is RANE in the house ? .... DENON ???

+1

Oh really? Can you back your statement with facts? I prefer a mathematical proof, please. Thanks.

i like the box with effects, no effects

DjLogan, rule #1 here which you agreed to when you signed up is "Be nice to others". If you have differences of opinion with other forum members then debate them on their points, but if you make it personal like you have done here then you are in breach of the first rule and will be banned. This is your one warning: if you continue to participate in an abusive manner then you will be banned.

Deo, DJLogan, No one was called stupid.
I called the argument stupid (and thats my opinion) because it is about a suggestion that is stupid (also my opinion). I think the suggestion is stupid because the suggestor refuses to take into account some otherwise easily understood concepts about the way SSL works, and audio in general. Like arguing over the color of a car while one person pulls out the official specs and the other person just keeps insisting its some other color mathematically.

I also used the word dumb to describe parts of the suggestion for the same reasons.

And the words impossible, impractical, and absurd. None of these are personal attacks, characterizations or ever meant to be. If you took them that way, thats your mistake, not mine.

The only reason I used these word is because by my estimation they fit most perfectly. This is even after being called an "ASS" and a couple other remarks about my person. I will probably go on just ignoring them because they really havnt been witty enough to provoke a response. Mostly these insults speak more about the person using them then who they are used on. Trust me, if I were going to start with the insults they would be much more witty (even if they went right over your heads) lol

anyway, Ive also made some stupid suggestions (not too many, most are exceptional) but I did suggest a feature that was already recently added to SSL. thats stupid. Someone pointed it out but I didnt feel all hurt about it, what type of fragile soft pussy shit is that?

even in this thread, I was corrected about part part of the CS being semi-random pink noise instead of white noise, but did I get all hurt like a little punk ass bitch about it? no



so let me address a couple items I missed:

Deo, you keep bringing up Red Book and telling me I dont know anything about it. I dont use Sound Forge anymore, I got rid of all my PCs, it was the only reason I even consider holding on to one. But it was about ten years ago and I used it to author several CDs required to meet Red Book specs by a rather large CD manufacturer/distributer (incidental, I had to meet the design specs using Quark which was quite a bit more difficult). Ive also authored a couple mixed media CDs. I routinely store many types of files and data on CD, and I often install software that is stored on CD.

It is so obvious that information other then audio can be stored on CD that it neednt even by pointed out. Ive never said anything that would suggest anything else to be true. Mater of fact, each of my post state something that would point to quite the opposite.

Ive also pressed my own vinyl records and have helped other individuals and record labels meet vinyl specs for pressing records. Ive also visited several mastering studios and vinyl pressing plants.

what the fact that data can be stored on a cd has to do with the argument, Im not sure. but go ahead, continue if you must. keep reversing my statements and arguing against them, keep bringing up tangents to argue


DJLogan, your idea is impossible. You do not need to be on any company staff to recognize the impossibility, you dont even need to be very smart.

If it were possible, it would be extremely impractical and highly inefficient.

It is stupid because there are solutions infinitely more practical, infinitely more efficient and so easy to implement that I could build the solution with my own hands.



DJLogan, I bet one day (maybe not a smart bet but) you will realize why your suggestion will never, ever, pleather, feather, work you can come back here and apply all your remarks to yourself.

No, you posted the idea, some smart people told you it simply cannot work, and u pretty much called THEM stupid... they schooled you, and now its over.

AKIEM,
first of all, i didnt present the idea, i simply stated that "Idea no matter how crazy it is should not be regarded as stupid". Just like i said, ideas drive progress and today's impossibilities might become tomorrow's reality. Most recent history, actually proves that... I'm not talking about SSL being able to recognise what effect was applied to Control Signal and then act accordingly, i am talking in general...

and then when whole whooble went on about it being possible or not. the simplies solution was (again what i offered), test it at home and see if it works. and my intentions to simply resolve the conflict in this topic, were regarded as stupid, directly or indirectly i also got called "stupid", which is not cool at all... golden rule of any argument is: "you may not agree with me but respect my opinion".

i do not doubt your professional opinion and skill level, but i would appreciate you'd do the same for me. i'm not going to post my professional portfolio in here but i do have quite solid background in sound design and audio engeneering. that's my daily bread.



not just data and not just on any cd, this is 5th time i repeat this, but "non-sound data can be stored on Audio CD". and if you missed the point, please do me a favor and read my post in regards to that... how many times i have to repeat myself in order for you to get my point?

anyway, i don't quite understand what Sound Forge got to do with Red Book? Indeed you can burn audio CD's with Sound Forge and it does comply with Red Book standards, but again its primary purpose is to edit/record/analyse sounds. I mentioned Red Book specs simply to prove my point that "audio CD can and does contain other non-sound information", and i was not talking about software installation CDs that everyone deals with on a daily basis.

now as far as impractical, if someone has a need for certain feature, i am sure they'll find good use for it. so "impractical" doesn't really have a good solid ground to stand on. impossible sure, but then again i'd relay on expertise of those who designed the product...

anyway, i am done arguing on this subject... my opinion and points i've state get misinterpreted somehow and i have no need to prove my points to those who refuse to understand it.

Actually this has been explained more times than you keep on repeating yourself that you are dong arguing on this subject... which is quite a few times.

A little commens sense, a little bit of technical understanding and it is quite obvious that for the majority of cases DJ Logan's "idea" is impossible to do. Not with the current technology.

whatever dude, whatever, god bless, peace. i simply will not limit technological possibilities with my imagination. to each his/her own.

Haha. Yeah, right.

I disagree, some ideas are stupid, particularly but not limited to impossible ideas. But I dont expect everyone to understand the impossibilities of an idea, but after numerous simple explanation, facts and reasoning, from multiple people, the idea becomes stupid in that context. In the context of this argument the idea became stupid, and so did the argument itself. Thats my opinion, you are free to disagree.

Sure there is plenty to be gained from proposing impossible or impractical ideas. Lots can be learned from the argument or the process of finding out they are in fact impossible or impractical. But at some point when it becomes more then reasonably clear that the idea is impossible that it becomes stupid. When an idea contradicts simple logic or facts it becomes stupid in that context.

If I were only trying to insult I would say "you are stupid". Which I did not, because I dont think making a stupid suggestion makes you stupid. As Ive already pointed out Ive made stupid suggestions on this forum.

Being unable to recognize.......



you would have to point to where that happened because I dont remember it that way.

Highlighting in order all the instances of the word "stupid" on the page shows:
AKIEM: "this is is a stupid argument..."
AKIEM: "...through out this whole stupid argument,"
AKIEM: "...because it would be such a stupid solution to begin with."
DJLogan: "with calling everyone stupid for their ideas ..."
DJLogan: "... and was called stupid for it ..."

and so on, mind you name calling and insults were already being thrown at me before I ever instituted the word "stupid" (which also contributed to the stupidity here imo)




I dont think Ive doubted that




you keep making that point while I, nor do I think anyone else has said much of anything to the contrary. you brought up Red Book and Sound Forge




It is impractical, period. Possible or not, Deo, do you really think the this idea makes any sense at all when we have the option to use a midi trigger?
really

We dont need to defer to the designers, they dont have a monopoly on understanding technology or are the only ones capable of understanding the issue.

effects destroy audio data. its not particular to Serato, it is universal


end of story

things being practical or impractical is a matter of personal preference, personal taste e.i. strictly subjective. things you might find impractical could be loved by thousands more and vice versa.

so if lets say: pioneer, rane & serato came up with cross compatible product, e.i. when effect button pressed on cd player (that has special SSL mode) it sends specific short pattern signal, serrato recognises and then launches internal compatible effect to apply to audio (not control signal). lets just stay from this being possible or impossible argument, but rather focus on "practical/impractical" issue... do you think none of self respecting DJ would utilize this feature?? honestly what you think?



i think the correct wording would be "changing", cuz not all effects destroy the signal

these arguments always lead to such abstractions and hair splitting (thats my opinion)



Have I ever said or pretended that any opinion of mine is instead fact???

need I inform every reader of each sentence I type as to it being fact or opinion???

that being said, some stupid person might buy 'shit on a stick'. that doesnt mean that I have to agree that it is a practical product. It is shit on a stick and 'no one' (practically no one) would buy it. I doint feel obliged to word my words in a way that would take into account the several human beings on the planet how might think it was the greatest purchase ever made. It would completely fail as a product<----opinion




But thats not what the suggestion was. and I would still call that 'impractical' for two reasons. Allot of effort has gone into making the CS system as stable as possible, I would guess that increasing its functions would make it less stable even if workable. By making it perform more functions you would be taking away from what its primary function is. (I assume using fact and logic). Also I think it would be impractical because there is already a perfectly functioning system (as well as others) called midi.

Personally, if such a system where developed I would suspect whatever companies developing the system where on a bullshit drive.

Related to this I do not use the 'key lock' function, not only because it does not sound 'natural' to me and it introduces artifacts, but also because of the added processing power that I believe it uses. I would rather conserve that power. Just like I would rather conserve the throughput of the CS without stressing it to carry more information.

But, like I said, that was not the suggestion in the first place.





see, this is just ridiculous at this point. its like you are trying to find whatever little imperfection in what Ive said to point out and win the argument or something. Just like bringing up red book and sound forge


when you 'destroy' something you 'change' it right? does that mean all 'change' is destruction? no. but probably you would agree that all 'destruction' can be categorized as 'change'. I think you would agree that the least damaging (I guess I could call it 'least changing') effect out of the standards would be the Flange. Now when you did your test you found that some of the function was lost (as I suspected would happen). Did it function properly? no. was the function 'destroyed'????? I would say 'yes'. Now, couple that with the way all the rest of the standard effects 'change' the signal and I conclude that saying "effects destroy audio data" is a fair and reasonable assessment. And yes I could imagine all sorts of individual situations where maybe that statement might not apply, like when I put out the possibility of a "01% slight effect". Just like you would be in error if you claimed a lethal poison to be neither just because it is not lethal at 1 part per billion. You could still call it lethal. Just like I would still say "effects destroy audio data" because they do.

anymore words Ive used you have issue with?

"well not only would that be impossible, and impractical if it were possible, but it would also be absurd."

This is the first sentence you said to me regarding this issue ...

1) it is your opinion it is impossible
2) impractical? how can you say that? it would take advantage of a feature I already have.
3) absurd ? calling me stupid for even suggesting it ?
Lets say I didnt know anything about how this works... this whole passage was slamming me for my request ... is this right ?
You dont have to come out and call me stupid its what you say and how you say it ...

MattG so I am being warned about calling a spade a spade however myself and others are being mistreated by others and thats ok? Where is your comment on this issue

So Mrs Geniuses (AKEIM OR NIK) tell me
If Denon rewrote their firmware to allow the alpha track to mirror the contol signal ... where you would get one signal clean and one signal that can be effected ...
If you reprogramed serato to reconize the effect ... how can that not work?
How is that impractical ?

As far as the math goes
Ive explained it
you have a constant value .... the control CD
When an effect is applyed it will effect the signal in a specific way
its not arbitrary ...

So... how often do you want to state that you're done?

You know this is getting ridiculous :) People won't take you serious.

DjLogan, the problem with your argument is that you assume that "reprogramming Serato [Scratch Live]" to recognize what an effected control signal looks like is a trivial matter, but it's not.

This thread has tons of great info and links to other info about exactly what the SSL control signal is, and how it works. If you don't understand why what you are asking for is prohibitively difficult (especially in light of the fact that USB-MIDI is available for remote triggering), I'd suggest reading through the info again, especially this thread: www.scratchlive.net, which was linked to earlier.

I know I've learned a heck of a lot about the control signal and dispelled a lot of my own mistaken assumptions based on the info contained here.

ok yes it may be hard but not impossible ... as stated there are always possibilities and that is what im getting at ... this forum is for feature suggestions ... not for others to dismiss as impossible ...

its not an assumption that a specific effect will have a specific effect on a signal ... its fact ... the control signal doesnt change correct ? meaning both CDS you have in Side A and Side B are identical correct?

the problem must lie in the reconition ... yes its hard but not impossible

Also I have provided an way to keep the an unmanipulated control signal
Denon has already made firmware updates for other issues pertaining to serato users so this shouldnt be a problem

As far as how hard the task may be ... well I really dont care thats not up to me thats RANE'S SERATO'S and DENON'S job to come up with a solution
As a loyal customer who paid alot of money for their products id like to take advantage of all my features ... when im asked how their product can serve me better thats my answer ... Make my functions compatable ...
If I had to pay some money for an adapter because thats the solution hell thats my business and id pay for it ... that what I want

Its not for members to decide what can and cant be done ... Its for the respective companies

Thank you for your post Mr Penguin
I understand the concepts that hasnt been the issue contrary to popular consensis
I dont like being talked down to for voicing my ideas ...
If others would have talk to me the way you just did it probally wouldnt have gotten as ugly as it has ...

Ciao
Keep Spinnin !!!

Logan, that post was for you.

Where are the facts?

Nik think about this

The control CD is a constant right ? Mine 2 copies are the same as your 2 copies ?

AS described by you or Akeim I cant remember and im not scrolling way up there to find out so ill give you both the credit ....

Each effect behaves the same each time you use it (per effect) EX reverb = double clock

Is this true?

SO my logic is if you have a constant value CD + another constant (Effect)(constant beacause we know how they work) you should have a predicatable result

1+2=3

Does this make any sense to you? (im not being sarcastic)

so what? I didnt say "DJLogan is impossible, and impractical if he were possible, he would also be absurd" I was not talking about YOU. how else can I explain it?


And should I not have an opinion? my opinion is based on some well established fact, reasoning and logic. Its also my opinion that it is impossible to invent a fairy dust that will let you fly.

why are you asking questions Ive already answered several times several different way?



I never called you stupid, I dont know how else to explain it in a way that would allow you to understand the difference.




no one mistreated you

I am not an ass, and I dont eat dicks, thats hardly calling a spade a spade.






How would the data from this second track reach SSL? Serato would need to create a new box with extra inputs for this effects channel. Why design a whole new box just for this Denon Alpha track feature when you could much more easily use some midi buttons. Like, I said it would be so easy I could modify your Denon decks with my own hands to operate this way. So yes, I would still call it 'impractical' even though it makes better sense then the original idea which I still think is impossible.



Just because its not arbitrary dosnt mean that you can reverse the effects even knowing the effect ahead of time. I already explained this lots of different ways if you wanted to listen.

If you bake a cake, and you know there are four eggs in that cake, and you can taste and detect egg material in that cake, you will still be unable to extract the eggs after baking the cake. It is impossible (my opinion). Maybe with some advanced nanotech, extra terrestrial methods you could extract only the egg material, I would still call it impractical and even an absurd thing to do when you already have plenty of eggs in the fridge.

This is the second time I used this analogy, but you ignored it or it went over your head.

Adding effects is like baking a cake, sure you know all the ingredients and everything. Extracting the eggs is like separating the control signal. And reaching in the fridge for more eggs is like using midi instead of trying to extract the eggs.

If nothing was impossible, there would be no word 'impossible' to describe such a situation. There are in fact impossibilities, need I really illustrate any of the infinite number of them?



A bomb has a specific effect on a car. Detecting the specifics you could even detect and determine a signature that might will you who built the bomb. But that does not mean you could reconstruct the car and drive it again.

Some effects will scramble the signal in a way that make it impossible to reconstruct. Even with the least destructive flang you will be sending two clock times. How would you know which is the correct time?



no, it is impossible



but you havnt provided a way for that second signal to reach the software.
and it would only work for those decks with a second track, what about the rest?



AND WAY NOT JUST USE MIDI IN THE FIRST PLACE?




whatever, I can say as much shit about this shit as I choose

That fallows a simple logic that ignores all the elements that stop it from working.

lets look at flanging
en.wikipedia.org

so you do understand that the control signal is clock information, right? If you apply flanging to that clock signal you will be sending TWO clock signals to the program. How could the program determine which signal is the correct time? besides that sending the two different signals at the same time as if they were one signal it would be difficult to read ether one because they are mashed together.

Imagine a digital clock displaying two different times simultaneously, could you read the clock?
DjLogan answer the above question, maybe you could understand how what you are asking can not be done



how about delay
en.wikipedia.org

again, you do understand that the control signal is clock information, right? If you apply delay to that clock signal you will be sending MULTIPLE clock signals to the program. How could the program determine which signal is the correct time? besides that sending the various different signals at the same time as if they were one signal it would be impossible to pick one out to read because they are all mashed together into one signal.

Imagine a digital clock displaying many different times simultaneously, could you read the clock?
DjLogan answer the above question, maybe you could understand how what you are asking can not be done





how about reverb
en.wikipedia.org

and again, you do understand that the control signal is clock information, right? If you apply reverb to that clock signal you will be sending HUNDREDS of clock signals to the program. How could the program determine which signal is the correct time? besides that sending the hundreds of different signals at the same time as if they were one signal it would be impossible to pick one out to read because they are all mashed together into one signal.

Imagine a digital clock displaying hundreds of different times simultaneously, could you read the clock?

DjLogan answer the above question, maybe you could understand how what you are asking can not be done


and its even more impossible then this but...

Kudos to Nik39 & Akiem for having the patience to deal with this. I noticed Konix already gave up. I'll be the first to admit much of this is over my head, technically speaking. I'll also admit I've haven't read all of the last few posts, as this thread has gotten repetitive and boring. So I apologize if the silliness of this has already been pointed out, but this caught my eye:



Effect = chaos; by definition, not constant.

OK, carry on...

AKEIM here you go again ...

You have confirmed what i have said yet you still maintain your position

With the CDS being a constant value it makes the effect constant

you know the behavior because you just told me

multiple clocks is multiple clocks any way you look at it

SERATO has come out with an adapter for SL VIDEO so if I need an adapter for this to work kewl

no I have not confirmed what you said. and I only dealt with one small element to try and make it more simple. but you could not answer the questions I asked. so we are at the same place.

what do you mean by the CD has a "constant value"?

as it has been pointed out countless times, the control signal has lots of information in it besides that tone. each second is is different, it is like a clock, it is the opposite of consistent, it is the opposite of constant. It is always changing and never static.

You are playing simple absurd word games (and yes I used the word again) Just because two different copies of the control signal are 'consistent' (yours Niks and everyone elses in the world), just because the vinyl pressings are 'consistent' (each pressed from the same master), just because the control signal on the vinyl and on the CD are 'consistent' (meaning they are pretty much the same), does not mean that you can just take this word CONSISTENT and apply it to the all characteristics of the control signal. absurd <----(Im not describing you with this word, I dont know you, just what you are saying.)

But what you are doing is playing simple word games that have absolutely nothing to do with the reality of the real world situation they should be describing.

your cd is identical to everyone elses, that is constant. that constant does not describe the control signal. absurd.


you did not answer any of the questions that I have asked. If you did you might fallow the path of logic that would answer the problem of you suggestion. you might be enlightened, you might understand why I called it "impossible, impractical and absurd" but instead you are playing games with words and ignoring everything that would lead you to understanding.

at this point I cant help but suspect that you are only trolling, and only making such stupid arguments (no I am not talking about you) to get a rise out of people.

And thats fine with me, please continue because I use these argument to practice a little creative writing.


multiple clock signals is only one problem, the clock signal will also be segmented, or rendered completely unreadable depending on the type of effect.

but take multiple clock signals on its own (which is actually an over simplification, the way the signals would be meshed together would cause other problems) but the most simple effect and the most simple problem.


CAN YOU READ A CLOCK WITH 6 HANDS?????


please answer the above question. if you double a clock signal it would be like putting two hour hands, two minute hands, and two second hands on the face. Can you tell what time it is on a clock like that?






Serato has not come out with an adapter for video. It is a software plug in that uses hardware built into the TTM57. You can not just add an adapter to make your idea work.





last why wouldnt you just use a simple midi button to solve the problem? no exotic R&D, no adapters, none of that. and it would work with any deck not just the denon. and it is so simple I personally could modify your denon deck to work with midi, right now





so again DJLogan, at least answer these two questions:

how can you read a clock with multiple hands?

why not just use midi?

I have already made my statement on this issue and have nothing more to add. You stepped out of line and were warned. If you feel that others have also stepped out of line then please press the 'report' button on their messages and I will assess them individually.

What if you needed several thousand dollars worth of new hardware? What if you had to pay another $200 or more for the software plugin? Would it still be worthwhile to you?

The thread I linked to above goes into detail about the exact nature of the control signal, but I will simplify here; it is a 1kHz tone, with pink noise laid over it to generate a "noise map," and a quarter-cycle phase quadrature sine wave to instantly indicate platter direction.

Unfortunately, effects are not constant. They vary greatly depending on the parameters you set. Even cataloging all the possible settings of a single effect on a single CD player (the Denon 9000, say) would require a large investment of time and resources. To catalog all the settings of all the effects on all the popular DJ CD units on the market would be a massive undertaking, requiring a huge investment of time and resources. In addition, Serato would need to document what the control signal looks like with every single effect applied at every parameter. On top of that, the database needed to hold all that information would be massive, which would increase the size and memory requirements of the SSL program. And that's just to enable a single effect at a time. If you wanted to be able to chain multiple effects together, go ahead and multiply the work stated above by a power of ten or twenty.

In addition to that very daunting obstacle, you'd need a LOT of processing power to compare the incoming effected control signal to the aforementioned large database in order to figure out what effect is being applied, and what parameters are being used on said effect in anything close to resembling real-time. This is just an educated guess on my part, based on years of working with computer hardware, but I'd venture that anything less than an enterprise-level multi-processor workstation or server wouldn't be able to handle the task without generating ridiculously unusable latencies (think latencies measured in tenths of a second or whole seconds instead of milliseconds.) Even with a very powerful machine, some extra latency will be introduced to SSL because of all the processing going on; the control of SSL would become somewhat less precise.

More importantly, you would not be getting the effect that Denon (or Pioneer, or Numark, or whoever) included with the CD player. You would be getting the Serato team's best representation/interpretation of that effect, and judging by their current product lineup, you would need to purchase a TTM-57SL to get the effects.

So, what you are asking for is theoretically possible, but fiscally impracticable with the current state of technology. Serato would need to recoup the huge investment of time and resources needed to catalog all those effects, so it's likely that an effects compatibility feature would be sold as an add-on, not streamlined into the program as a free software update. Let's pretend for the sake of this discussion that this theoretical effects package would cost the same to develop, have the same user base/sales numbers, and have the same retail price as Video-SL, $200 per unit for the software plus a TTM-57SL ($1200-1500) to get the hardware functionality needed.

Let's not forget the cost of a machine capable of handling the amount of processing to be done. Whether you pick Apple or Dell, rackmount or tower case, you're looking at a cost of $3000-4000 for an appropriate machine, plus the extra hassle of lugging that beast to gigs.

So, now we're back to the question I asked at the beginning of this little essay: How much is this feature worth to you? Is it worth $4500? Do you think it would be worth $4500 to a large enough number of people for it to make good business sense for Serato?

sounds absurd to me

maybe the us government would like to take it on
you could sit on a $10k toilet seat while you spin

Would said expensive toilet seat have built-in butt warmers, massaging rollers, cushiony vinyl covering, and emit a pleasing odor periodically?

Because I can't really see spending $10K for a toilet seat that won't at least massage my fat lazy ass.

It sure would be sweet to spin while pooping though...


:)

Not even theoretically, dj_penguin, that's why I asked for DJ Logans "mathematical proof" which he mentioned... and all I read was "1+2=3". Wowster.

Very easy proof:

(We use a method called "proof by contradiction" used commonly in maths. What is "proof by contradiction"? It is a method of proving a proposition by assuming the negated proposition and showing that this negated proposition will lead to an contradiction. Actually, this here is more of "counter evidence"-proof method. But hey, lets not be too nitpicky ;) )


Proposition
A control signal decoder is always able to correctly identify the control signal, which means decipher the position at every time. This also means that the control signal decoder is able to identify the play direction (meaning whether the control signal is running forwards or backwards).

Proof by contradiction

You have an effect called reverse. What does it do? Basically it just buffers the audio signal, and as soon as you enable the effect it plays back the buffered audio in reverse. Is this a valid effect? Yes.

You have one deck A playing the control signal vanilla, w/o the aforementioned reverse effect.

You have one deck B playing the control signal w/ the revers effect enabled.


Now DJ Logan, I will present you (as the control signal decoder) a signal 1 and a signal 2, your task as the control signal decoder is to decipher whether the signal you are listening to corresponds to deck A or deck B.

Okay? Ready?

Here is signal 1, it sounds like the control signal played forward (*). Here is signal 2, it sounds like the control signal played backwards (**).

Your response is:

Signal 1 is from deck A. Signal 2 is from deck B.

Why? Because you say that the signal 1 sounds like the control signal played forwards, and signal 2 sounds like the control signal played backwards.

Are you sure? Who says that I am not actually playing deck A in reverse and playing deck B in reverse? Remember, the pre-conditions do still apply, which means deck A is running the plain control signal, deck B is running the control signal where the reverse effect is engaged. Effectively you are not able to always decipher the playing direction.


Conclusion:
The proposition is false. You can't be sure. You can't always decipher the original playing direction and/or the playing position.

QED.

Your theory is wrong. This is the proof.

Before you continue again, DJ Logan and Deo, remember: I was not using any specific implementation of control signal decoder, I used an abstract control signal decoder with as much CPU power and decoding skills you (DJ Logan and Deo) could ever imagine (see Deo, I am not even limiting any technical possibilites in your imagination). And you both are still wrong as much as your theories.



----

(*) [but it could also be the control signal played backwards with the reverse-effect engages making it sound like a forward playing control signal]

(**) [but it could also be the control signal playing forward without any reverse-effect engaged making it sound like a backwards playing control signal]

Im not sure what you get for such an expensive toilet seat. but check this site www.cagw.org



:)

Well Dj Penguin you resolved my argument for me ... yes it can be done ... with research

Yes I would pay $200 for an adapter instead of having another controller (midi)

My argument is it can be done ... It may not be cost effective but its my wish list

NIK by constant I mean you know what the value is at any given point of the CD it doesnt change

Can the seat have a built in bouday (spelling?)

a clock with multiple hand would have a distinct image ... I wouldnt be able to tell the time but I could reconize whats been done to the clock ...

if i didnt have to by a controller i would use midi ...

the denon also has that xffect port maybe that could be programed to send a specific signal such as midi i dont know but i dont like too much clutter and I dont want a seperate controller

DjLogan, you forgot the $3000-$4000 extra machine required for the extra precessing. Also you ignored things like dj_penguins guess at possibly whole seconds of latency, you think it would be acceptable to hit a button and it kicks in a couple seconds later? lol

its not constant, it changes over time like a clock

If you cant recognize what time the clock reads, how would SSL know where in the song to play from? it is reading the clock so it knows where to play the song

I told way at the start that the control signal contains clock info, but...

I asked you early on if you would have used a midi button but never got an answer from you. several people have suggested it but you were so bent on this control signal effect fiasco working and refusing to learn how the system actually worked. This entire argument could have been avoided maybe (but how much fun would that be?) Dont you think that midi would be a far better choice then all the crazy cost, energy and time (if even possible) to get your idea to work?



dj_penguin, since I see that you have decided not to use the word 'impossible' and used 'theoretically possible' instead. Let me convince you that somethings would be in fact impossible (without some exotic futuristic possibly extra terrestrial technology)

if we have the side channel effect signal system as to not corrupt the cs

take a simple delay
suppose you want it to mirror several parameter settings
50% wet, 1/4 intervals, 70% feedback

hit delay

the first echo shows up 1/4 note after the button is pressed

-you could determine the percentage of wetness by reading the amplitude

-you could measure how long the switch was open by reading when the signal goes back to normal

-but at this point you can not determine that it is a quarter note because you dont know when the switch was initially opened

-and you cant determine the feedback because you only have the first reflection

second echo

-and now you can measure the time between the first and second reflection to determine the interval is (1/4 note)

- and now you could calculate the amplitude difference to find the feedback setting.

ignoring the latency from processing, you still would have no idea what the parameter settings for a delay would be until it has run a couple cycles, in this case an entire half note

it would be impossible for the delay to begin when you press the button (which would be absurd)

theoretically with the right type of exotic technology the program could look into the future and predict that you will press the button and be already to kick in the effect, but any slightly reasonable person could conclude this shit is in fact impossible

Dj Logan, do actually read any of these posts?

I said theoretically possible because theoretically, if every parameter of every effect on every DJ CD unit on the market could be catalogued (which is all by itself a big job), as well as what the SSL control signal looks like when effected by each one (which is an even bigger job), you could create a database of the effected control signals and write code to match the input control signal to the "proper" one from the database as quickly as possible (which is a HUGE job.)

Of course, we're talking about a database that would have to be monstrous to cover all those effects on all those players, probably at least 100GB. Which is why you'd need serious enterprise-level hardware to even have a prayer of making it work. On top of that problem, there's the issue that you brought up about the lag between hitting the switch and the start of the effect, which is where a lot of the latency would come from (the rest comes from the ridiculous overhead of comparing the input signal to the database.) The effect would have to start upon detection of the effected signal.

So is it theoretically possible? Technically yes, but it's not even remotely likely, nor is it reasonable. The huge equipment outlay required means that there's essentially no market for such a feature, and the massive R&D cost ensures that no company will put their bottom line at risk for a product that's so unlikely to return the investment.

Considering the availability of DJ effect units, mixers with onboard effects, and now the release of CD players with MIDI control buttons, it seems silly to pursue an alternate solution that's so expensive while being inferior.

DjLogan - I would not hold your breath waiting for this feature. Also, please re-read my earlier post. You seem to think I am saying your idea is do-able. I am saying that although it is technically possible (very few things are actually impossible in the technical sense) it has so many limitations as to be an extremely impractical solution to trigger effects; it would be extremely expensive to develop, and it would be extremely costly for the end-user (roughly $4300+ worth of hardware to buy on top of the cost of the theoretical plug-in.)

Although you personally may be willing to spend five thousand dollars for that function, how many other SSL customers would spend five thousand dollars on top of the cost of their existing CD players to get the same functionality they could get with $2500 (two CDJ-400s and a TTM-57SL)?

dj_penguin, you forgot to add the price of R&D that would have to be passed on to the costumers. How much would we be talking then? A hell of allot more then $5000 a box. You couldnt even put price tags on this thing it would be so expensive.

I doubt Serato could ever raise the capital to do the R&D to get it to a point where it would be called 'working'. I doubt many countries could afford to develop it to a point where it would be considered 'working'. Which brings us to another limit that would render it 'impossible' where would the capital come from to develop the system?

No one would invest a single dollar, Serato would have to use cash on hand. Anyone invested in Serato would probably immediately divest, all development and support for any other product would end. Serato would be broke rather quick and rather early on in the development process. If Serato even thought about developing this idea it would self destruct with a flurry of negative events. Fist fights, crying, alcohol poisonings, maybe even a couple work place shootings.

It would be impossible to fund the development of this idea. Not even a government would waste any tax dollars on it. It would take the rise of some sort of insane despotic dictator to fund the project. Even then it would be through forced labor.





impossible, and impractical if it were possible, but it would also be absurd.






teleportation, time travel, immortality and inter-galactic trade will be developed before this idea

Yes I read the post ...
I have te processing power now
Ill just agree to disagree with you all ...
Ciao

te = the

you have an EXTRA top of the line computer sitting around that you are not using?

I doubt that




see you later it was fun
'disagree' lol

There is nothing to disagree. We are not talking about opinions. I have presented a proof. Feel free to show my proof was wrong.

dj_penguin, no. I have shown a proof which shows that even theoretically it is not possible. Even with a catalog. In the given proof you will make the decoder fail in 50% of all cases, which makes it fail.

He's trying to back out of the argument. Let him. No need to rub his nose in it.

I don't understand the arguement?

What's being asked for here?

If Logan and Deo are asking for DSP effects within the software without the need for the use of a ttm57...why are you guys arguing about applying an effect to the control signal. It seems to me all you'd need to do is write an effect plugin that effects the output, not the input. I'm sure I'm not reading the arguement correctly, because I know Akiem and Nik are smart cookies...but I don't see why a virtualdj style effect wouldn't be possible with the SL1.

The timecode would be read, the normal output would be determined, then whatever dsp effects were added to serato software would be toggled and applied to effect the expected output. Seems simple to me (not simple to code, but simple to wrap your head around) so someone explain to me what I'm missing.

Internal DSP effects, fine (even pre-fade)
Trigger those effects, through whatever means, fine

Whatever means, except the means DjLogan is suggesting. Applying effects to the control signal, SSL then recognizes the effect and its parameters and then in turn applys the equal effects to the song being played.

He wants to add effects to the input.

Good advice.

Oh...well that's impossible.

Actually I have two computers with the processing power, both a laptop and desktop ....
What does EXTRA have to do about it?
You dont know me, so you have know idea what I have ...

See this is what im getting at MATT they dont come out and insult you but what they say and how they say it i find very insulting ...

You people give opinions and try to pass it off as fact ...
NIK you have prooved nothing what does what the sound of the signal forward and back have to do with it ... for the last month you have been saying its data not sound ... give it up

I DISAGREE WITH YOUR OPINION I DONT HAVE TO PROOVE ANYTHING TO YOU OR ANYBODY ELSE
CIAO

I have presented you an effect where the control signal decoder will fail to reconstruct the original signal, in other words it will not track.

I don't have an opinion about this. I just presented you a proof. I might be wrong with the proof, feel free to show that the proof is wrong. Until then, the proof stands there and proofs that what you are asking for will never always work, therefor it makes no sense even trying it.

If you have two signals
1 Control unmanipulated
2 Control effect

where would any reconstruction have to take place ?

the control effect would only have to be reconized to trigger an effect

Sorry, I don't know what you mean. Can you please elaborate?

Since you asked, I doubt that you have an extra top of the line computer (which I doubt would be enough power) sitting around performing no function. A computer that you would devote to getting your idea to work. This is of course after Serato did the R&D, designed a new box with a special input and convinced anyone to buy it with the obscene price tag.

I doubt it because it does not make sense.

especially when you can use a midi button that will work infinitely better, and cost infinitely less

It is not insulting. I dont have an extra computer. Did I just insult myself? If I had an extra powerful computer I would put it to use not let it sit waiting for impossible technology. Am I insulting myself?

maybe you do have this extra computer, but I doubt it (not insulting)

really I think you just failed to notice the theory called for a separate extra computer system

what input would this second control signal for effect go in?

maybe my problem is im not expressing myself clearly enough

ok the denon 9000 has alpha track ... two tracks played of same CD

there would probally need an adapter for SL for this to work and Denon firmware updated to allow this

but the control cd plays unmanipulated for the first signal

on the second signal you have your effects now this would have to be the control or maybe anyother tone the can be manipulated so the software knows what you want to trigger

does this make sense to you ?

of = off the

yes, but where would the DSP analyzation of the effect signal take place? with Dj_penguins theory you would need an extra top shelf processor and an extra 100gb. (which I dont think would even be enough for your average set of effects to achieve below expected performance)

Guys... please, there is a proof, even a 10000000TB will not suffice. If you think the proof is wrong, please let me know. I am keen to know.

That's life. They are playing by the rules, which is attacking your ideas not your person.

nik39, the proof went a little over my head too in some places, so...


Djlogan has added something to his suggestion, a second control signal dedicated to effects. it would be sent from a second track from the denon which can output two files.

this makes the idea even more absurd if you ask me, but at least the control signal would be in tact


but I agree that there is not a processor on the planet that could get this thing to work (that we know of).

and you have the simple paradox of applying an effect immediately (pushing the button) that is not immediately available for analyzation in the case of something like a delay. which also makes it a provable impossibility


no matter how powerful of a dsp there would be huge latencies anyway if one or two effects you could get to work in some clunky manner

this is so silly

There you have it. This is even easier than my proof.

With this suggestion (using alpha track)
This would be used as a trigger
There would be no need to process anything just reconize and apply

you did not answer what input on the SL1 box this 'alpha track' would use???

If you are applying an effect to that alpha track and expecting the computer to "recognize" that effect, it is the act of recognizing that would require all the processing power. this would be *impossible* for a normal set of effects.


you could, instead of applying effects to this 'effect signal' simply cause it to send a coded set of instructions concerning what effects and parameters to spark off



but why would you do this, when you already have midi systems in place???????????

I went and checked out some denon decks, it looks like they are dropping some with midi triggers on them already

yes I did say it would need some sort of adapter .... like the video adapter

I disagree I think you arguing for the sake of arguing

Its not for me or you to find a solution

I can see possibilities but im done arguing with you

have a nice night

Yes, Ive already said that I like to argue, it helps with my writing and reasoning, some chess game type shit.

Even arguing for the sake of arguing, everything I say is my real position and real thought on the matter. I dont ever expect you to understand what I am talking about, but trying is a good excersise.

Any one can find a solutions, why not?

and again as usual you ignore all the questions Ive asked that would lead you to the truth of the matter. too bad

I think the possibilities you see ignore basic realities. This didnt even have to be an argument if you would have taken a simple look at all the information that was being given to you by lots of people.

but thanks for the fun

this thread makes me feel better about myself.

ha ha ha ha ha ha. who'd want to buy a "shit on a stick" when they can make one on their own??? ha ha ha... if that "shit on a stick" has a Prada or D&G some actually might buy it and consider themselvs fashionable... but i agree, no matter what, "shit on a stick" is still "shit on a stick" and i wouldn't find it practical either, unless i have to throw it at someone. :D ha ha ha..... but lets not compare apples to bananas: this is SSL features discussion isn't it? :P




that may not have been what was suggested, but finding perhaps better way to resolve the issue, e.i. brainstorm - ain't it the goal of intelligent discussion?
i'm not saying the my way is the best way, no it's just a suggestion, and i am sure - if discussion went in proper manner a much better suggestion could/would have been made.

i honestly don't think it would saccrifice much of stability either, unless somebody's running win 95. just as an example: i've done 5 hour non-stop live performance set with albeton live (not a dj set), bunch of loops, synth riffs, progressions whatnot, tones of effects - and not a single hickup, hell CPU metter wouldnt go above 30%, and my laptop is just petnium M processor 1.8gHz (not even duo core). so if programing's done proper, i honestly doubt stability would be an issue.

and yes, i agree, if SSL had internal Effects module, MIDI would be #1 choice, hands down, but having Serato, Rane & and some reliable CDJ manufacturing company to come up with cross compatible product wouldnt be bad either. personally i can't stand when entire dj set consists of DJ fucking with the effects, but it still be nice to see whatever CD player to have special SSL mode, with special functions and whatnot.



you must forgive me for being sensitive to the word "destroy". to me it sort of sounded as if somebody was going to drop a thermonuclear bomb on a sound. in any case destruction indicates damage, and in my practice - effects are used to enhance sound, change it, morph it, modify it - rather than damage it. the only effects that really damage the sound: EQs, Filters & Bit Reducers, and even these can be used to achieve certain level of sonic enhancement. Heck, even volume can fuck up sound beyond repair, although that does not qualify it as an actual effect. i do not intend to cause argument on this subject, it's just my personal & professional opinion.


damn, i thought i almost got away with this... i feel delighted that you follow my posts so thoroughly :) good job, keep up... but honestly tho, each time i felt like leaving this discussion, something new, interesting or personal was brought up. i couldnt' ignore it.... i hope this answers your question.

cheers.

when December rolls around, im going to nominate this thread for best thread of 2008. its going to be tough to top this one.

agreed. its hard to follow though. its like listening to Bill Gates and Steve Jobs argue with Napoleon Dynomite.

and having Pedro participate.

lol

so if logan's version needs an adapter, wouldn't that make people upset that you need to buy an adapter? or a new sl1 (sl2) box? remember how miffed people got when the ttm57sl came out with fx (and the video plug-in). also, the adapter would totally go against the main reason why this thread exists - which is why doesn't the sl1 box have fx (without purchasing something else).

Maybe I should have started a new thread but what I want is to be able to use my denon 9000 to trigger effects added

Unless they come out with a 19" version of the 57 im not interested in it ... I would pay for an adapter if thats what it took to resolve my issue

Well I dont know anyone personally who would buy a "shit on a stick". But I bet you could find more then a couple people out of the 6 billion on the planet who would buy it for some reason. But it would hardly make for a practical product. Same as this idea which is the point. Who is going to pay $10,000+ dollars for an effect triggering system that would probably have latencies up into the seconds (if that) and could not perform simple effects like delay on command. No one, effectively no one, would buy this device (if it were possible to create). Maybe you could convince a couple people out of the 6 billion people on the planet, bu it would fail as a product. which is the point. Mater of fact I bet 'shit on a stick' would sale better because you could price it closer to $0 and even make some sort of a profit. The whole point of comparing this product idea to 'shit on a stick' is to say that it would fail as a product.

You bring up an important point, anyone could put a shit on a stick. Actually there are some disabled human beings who could not do this by using their own motor skills. Which is quite the opposite when it comes to this effects idea, hardly anyone could create it. As Ive already estimated, I doubt a government sized budget could pull this thing off and call it working. While on the other hand, with my even with my limited electronic I could put some switches on that denon deck that would work infinitely better then this dumb ass idea of analyzing effects applied to the control signal. Yes I could with my own hands add switches that would trigger effects to SSL 1.8 as it is now, no programming from Serato and no upgrades from Denon. Thats apples to apples.

apples to apples = sales figures alone: "shit on a stick" would out sale this effects device hands down




What? what do you mean "proper way"? You guys are harping on this impossible, at least extremely impractical and absurd solution. Im just rejecting it. Not only am I rejecting but I am offering infinitely better solutions. Solutions that resolve every single aspect of the original problem (triggering from the denon deck). As a matter of fact Ive offered two solutions. 1 do a midi modification. 2 upgrade to a newer Denon deck that looks like it might have these triggers.

What 'other solution' could anyone possibly need, how could midi triggering be improved in the scope of this discussion? What are any of us going to come up with, less latency? Its a fucking trigger. As a matter of fact I think the solution that I would do with my own hands is not actually midi and has even lower latency then midi.

But be my guest, I could be wrong. so far we have 'midi' and something 'impossible idea'.





Deo, I do not understand why you completely mis the point and the problem. All through this thread there have been countless accounts, theories, explanations, analogies, guesses, and links to informations, in fact the bulk of this thread is dedicated to showing why the system would be highly unstable if even possible in the first place.

please recognize that there is a huge gigantic, insurmountable difference between applying effects to the music output and analyzing effects applied to the control signal.

I have already pointed out that I as well as others already use a SSL effects system, it is completely stable.


deciphering the effects applied to the control signal is something completely different.

Deo, please recognize the two huge problems.
1. the HUGE amount of processing power needed to decipher the parameters of the effects applied to the cs. truly you are looking at artificial intelligence class processing.

2. reading the CS after it has been reconstituted. SSL has problems with simple shit like line hum and dirty needles. what do you think is gong to happen when you put a reverb on it? the same HUGE amount of processing power would be needed to read the effected signal.

Deo, why cant you see this? really



SSL already has an effects system, it just requires a TTM57 to operate because the effects are processed on the 57s processor




Deo, in you professional opinion, would a 'decemator' effect count as destruction? How about a 'bit crusher' would that count as destruction? A 'deconstructor', would that count as destruction?

You bring up a thermonuclear explosion as an example of destruction. Yes a thermonuclear explosion is probably the greatest example of human created destruction. But arnt there less fantastic forms of destruction. Smash a window, isnt that window "destroyed"? fuck yes it is destroyed.

It seams that you fail to comprehend that the CS contains DATA. It has been said countless of times, there have been links to posts made by the Serato staff that have gone into some detail about the data contained in the CS. This data can be destroyed by effects. Just because a reverb on a snare sound does not 'destroy' the sound of that snare does not mean that that same effect will not fucking destroy the DATA on the control signal.

I really dont understand why you cant see that.

You can put a magnet on a magnetic floppy disk, but it will probably 'destroy' the data on that disk.

The un-destroyed characteristics of a certain digital DATA would be that the 1s and 0s are configured in a certain intelligent configuration. If you scramble those 1s and 0s the DATA is lost. An effect on the control signal is the same as scrambling that DATA.


Deo, here is a perfect test for you:
If you go into Setup you see the two circles that represent the integrity of the control signal. Go ahead and put some effects on that control signal and watch what happens to those circles.

NOW, imagine what type of processing power a computer would need to reconstruct those circles when the only information that it has to work with is the jumble of green mess on the screen.

those circles would be 'destroyed'









Deo, I think you are stuck on assuming that I, or the people agreeing with me dont know what we are talking about. you cant get over that, and you are struggling against that instead of simply looking into what is being said.

1. The control signal contains data

2. Effects will destroy that data

3. to recognize what type of destruction was done would require impossible amounts of processor power

4. to read that destroyed signal would also require impossible amounts of processor power

5. even with impossible amounts of processing power the action would be less than instant

6. there are infinitely cheaper, and infinitely better performing solutions

7. these solutions are so simple, I could install them myself

making this whole concept, by my humble estimation, fucking absurd, at least

people would be more upset that DjLogans adapter would cost $10,000+ on the low end. and hardly work at all

i'm curous how much did you pay for your SSL??? not $10,000 i hope, cuz just few years ago alot of people would doubt it even as a concept... and would make claims just as you did about it taking enormous calculating power, and even being impractical... You do know that there are tools that analyze incoming audio real time and decipher it??? and they don't require that kind of CPU processing power as you estimated. and those tools are quite accurate in terms of Frequency and Synch goes. According to you, i prolly should have paid at least $5,000 for my iPhone, cuz you know it being the first marketed product to introduce the multi-touch screen....



by proper way, i mean not insulting other people's intelligence and or their ideas. i mean on what authority you mark idea as stupid? discussions should follow argument ethics, otherwise it's simply disrespectful. if somebody puts stupid ideas, just ignore it... nobody's making anybody....

and i am not harping an impossible idea. where in this discussion or in this forum for that matter, have i suggested "lets have Serato guys analyze, recognise effected control signal and apply that effect to actual audio"???? please show me where i stated that... the only place where i said anything about applying effect to control signal was for testing purpose (it was said before), and by no means was that a suggestion.

or maybe you got confused on this: "so if lets say: pioneer, rane & serato came up with cross compatible product, e.i. when effect button pressed on cd player (that has special SSL mode) it sends specific short pattern signal, serrato recognises and then launches internal compatible effect to apply to audio (not control signal)."

if that's the case let me elaborate: imagine cdj having specific SSL mode, and when in that mode effects get engaged, it sends short toggle signals that follow speciffic, SSL friendly pattern, which by no means affect the flow of control signal but rather something on top of it or under it, whatever the best place for it would be. I honestly don't think it would require much of a CPU power to simply detect that signal and act on it, simply because it would be short signal that toggles the effect on/off, it would follow the same static pattern, and would reside in different frequency range other than control tone and won't affect CS at all... and by all means i don't mean MIDI, due to its obvious latency issues, especially compared to sample acurate timecode employed in VST applications. does this still sound impossible?



uhm, dude, i don't think i was talking about deciphering the effected control signal. that would make sense in studio applications, but not for applications designed for live performance. i do agree effecting control signal simply to have it deciphered is an overkill. never have i disputed that.


i know that, i also own pioneer djm-600, which has built-in effects so i am covered, but that's not the point. by the way, TTM57 is not that affordable and even less practical, especially considering that to get use of those effects - you have to carry it to each club, unplug their in-house mixer so you can put yours.... that kinda kills it for me.....



if i am not wrong, these effects fall into bit reducer category. and didn't i say the only effects that destroy audio: EQ, Filters, Bit Reducers. Basically these effects take away frequencies from audio, e.i, making a permanent and non-reversible change.



would you say broken window or destroyed window? i was not disputing the destruction of CS data, although i personally would use "make it unrecognisable" term. but then again, i am not disputing that either, to each his own, and in my opinion "destroying audio" sounded like "pooffff, bam, no more audio, just silence"....

What for? 1.8.1 of SSL will support CDJ's natively, directly via USB, some say it talks via Midi. Job done. No need to do the hunkypunky encode the effect into the control signal stuff - even if it sounds interesting.

I have purchased 1 TTM56, 1 TTM57 and 2 SL1 boxes, and probably 20 control vinyls. You can add up the price.

I was never one of those people who claimed or thought a DVS system would never work. Quite the contrary. When CDs and Laser Disk came out I thought it would be a good idea to make a 12 inch laser disk that had physical grooves that would guide a laser stylus. So for me DVS wasnt any kind of shock. It still amazes me that I forget its not vinyl, but that only speaks to how well it mimics vinyl which I am still more used to. so... my doubts are not in any way rooted in any doubt about what technology would or will achieve. As a mater of fact I believe in the existence of some rather advanced technologies that are not generally known to the public. But that does not include technologies that easily break Einsteins laws; receiving information faster then the speed of light for example. Which is what this idea would require in order to operate a regular list of effects.


I do know that there are tools that do real time analyzation of analog signal. The most common being a spectrum analyzer.

But how could a system determine the feedback setting of a delay for example? The feedback is how long the delay lasts. But more importantly how could any computer system read the digital data that was 'changed' through a reverb?

I expect you to ignore my questions as usual leaving us in square one. Maybe if you would answer my questions, you too would understand why it is impossible.


$5000 for an iphone? did you pay attention to the reasoning behind the mach pricing. The price was thrown out there dj_penguin was estimating the price of the processors and memory that would be required for a system like this to work (and not very well and without basic features that would be impossible)





If you can point to where I overtly insulted anyones intelligence I will easily I will gladly apologize if it came before any of the name calling tossed my way.

I have the same authority that you have to mark an idea as stupid. IT IS MY OPINION. And I have diligently, verbosely, and repetitively backed up that OPINION with reasoning and facts. Also Ive been asking questions, if answered instead of ignored any reasonable person would end up having the same OPINION that I have. Out of respect to all the people here I did not use the word 'stupid' until the doors were opened when I was called an "ASS", and my intelligence was questioned using the same standards you are applying to me. I used the word stupid in a precise meaning, and I explained they way I used it.

And as I have already stated, I have also used the word 'stupid' to describe my own ideas. If its a word I would use for my own ideas, I think its fair to use on other peoples ideas. The rule I go by is to treat people as well as I would like to be treated. And to treat people at least as well as they treat me. In real life or on a forum.

I have the option to ignore stupid ideas, pretend they are good, try to educate the person with them, everything in between and whatever I choose.

Its funny how you want to maintain your personal freedoms when it comes to the way you post, but somehow limit mine.




"lets have Serato guys analyze, recognise effected control signal and apply that effect to actual audio"

I was sure that was DjLogans idea. Read this post, do a page search "January 26, 2008, 2:44 PM" That is the exact idea and all the related elements you and all of us have been arguing about. You have been arguing with me about the various elements and parts of the idea that would make it possible or not. You are arguing with me about words like "destroy" and if its "impossible" or not. Each point you disagree with me over is a leg the Logan Solution stands on. You have agreed with me next to not at all. So I assumed you were supporting it. Or what was it that you were arguing with me for, just trying to prove me wrong about something, anything??? so whatever.





Um, if Im not mistaken the only problem I had with that idea is that I wouldnt want to require the CS to carry this extra data just for effects. I would rather all the information the CS carries be dedicated to tracking the vinyl/cd. AND I dont know why anyone would develop this idea when you have systems like midi available and working perfectly. Would this be an improvement in some way? I dont see it, maybe you do. I would be willing to listen to what you or anyone hase to say about it. I dont think its impossible like DjLogans idea is for several or more reasons.



I dont know if there is room in the CS, if there is I would rather that space be dedicated to more stability in the system even if redundant. But if there is this extra space fine. I agree that it probably would not take up much CPU, to receive on/off or even parameter instructions. I NEVER SAID THIS IDEA WAS IMPOSSIBLE. I would have to deffer to the designers about this extra space, but I would suspect that the space is 'full' and this suggestion would take away from the space dedicated to the control signal. I assume that all available space is used, unless there were PLANS for something else.




My mistake then, I took your exceptions to many of my supporting facts as believing DjLogans idea is do-able or worth consideration. Even now it looks like you might not believe it is 'impossible'.



Ive had problems with that as well, but for more normal real world reasons I dont think SSL should have effects included. The proper place for effects is in a mixer or extra box.



see here we are on different pages again. I used those examples because they sound 'destructive'. I agree with you that 'change' is perfectly a better word to describe what effects do to audio. BUT, I am not talking about audio being destroyed, I am talking about the DATA that audio caries being destroyed. Thats why I keep asking you about understanding that the audio caries data. The audio would be changed, but the data would be destroyed. It would be unrecognizable, unreconstitutable, destroyed.

The clock information in the CS will be destroyed. you must see that?







would you say broken window or destroyed window? i was not disputing the destruction of CS data, although i personally would use "make it unrecognisable" term. but then again, i am not disputing that either, to each his own, and in my opinion "destroying audio" sounded like "pooffff, bam, no more audio, just silence"....

Well I never said "destroying audio". I dont know why you think I said it. If I did, error on my part but I dont think I did. I think that is an error on your part. And the context, everything Ive said in regards to this should have keyed you in. Probably the same situation when you missed the word "not" in my sentence reversing the meaning. You argue against what I have not said.

take look at all the instances of the word 'destroy' on the page made by me. Isnt it clear that I was not talking about the destruction of Audio, rather I was speaking of the destruction of DATA!

"...the control signal were being decimated, and destroyed by whatever effects ..."
"...the control signal when it is destroyed..."
"...because the data in the signal is destroyed by adding the effect..."
"...putting effects on it will destroy the information."
"...it is going to destroy any data..."
"...the map will be destroyed..."
"effects destroy audio data."
"was the function 'destroyed'?????"

it should be clear that I am talking about the destruction of DATA, INFORMATION, FUNCTION, the fucking integrity of the Control Signal




please recognize

lol.

trying to make my last word in this thread. I would rather devote this time and energy to other suggestions on this forum where the threads are short and end with "bump", but I guess you gotta post where its hot

Effects for the SL1
I think professional standards suggest the proper location for effects are post-fader (or at least switchable). For DJs, half the regular set of effects would be near useless and would not work well, with undesired results. If you want integrated effects use a TTM57 or other mixer with built in effects, like a Pioneer 909, otherwise use an effects box.


The Logan idea
proposed by DjLogan, defended by Deo

Impossible
–adjective
1. not possible; unable to be, exist, happen, etc.
2. unable to be done, performed, effected, etc.: an impossible assignment.
3. incapable of being true, as a rumor.
4. not to be done, endured, etc., with any degree of reason or propriety: an impossible situation.
5. utterly impracticable: an impossible plan.
6. hopelessly unsuitable, difficult, or objectionable.

1. Analyzing any effect that uses reflections (like reverb, echo, delay) can only be completed well after it must be triggered. This is an impossible paradox.

2. Most effect processing will completely scramble and destroy any data contained in the Control Signal. Trying to read the signal after it is destroyed is impossible.

Two points of impossibility, the reason I used the word.

impractical
adjective
1. not practical; not workable or not given to practical matters; "refloating the ship proved impractical because of the expense"; "he is intelligent but too impractical for commercial work"; "an impractical solution"

Even limiting it to some of the effects parameter that theoretically could be identified, the computational power and storage for profiles, used for trying to recognize the effect, or analyzing the effect would be huge and yield very poor performances. False results and high latencies in to the seconds or worse. You hit an effect and it engages seconds later?

Even for reading the Control Signal through the effects that dont completely destroy the data in the Control Signal, the computational power used for trying to decipher the Control Signal, would be huge and yield very poor performances, creating a very unstable system.

The energy, time and cost of R&D would be astronomical. Literally space exploration type budgets.

By comparison there are already very stable, efficient and infinitely higher performing, and infinitely low cost systems currently perfectly operational.


absurd
–adjective
1. utterly or obviously senseless, illogical, or untrue; contrary to all reason or common sense; laughably foolish or false: an absurd explanation.
–noun
2. the quality or condition of existing in a meaningless and irrational world.

An impossible paradox, the impossible destruction and reconstitution of data, incalculable utilization of huge amounts of recourses, extremely low performances, poor stability, all this compared to already infinitely better working systems, would be absurd.


Stupid
–adjective
1. lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull.
2. characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish; senseless: a stupid question.
3. tediously dull, esp. due to lack of meaning or sense; inane; pointless: a stupid party.
4. annoying or irritating; troublesome: Turn off that stupid radio.
5. in a state of stupor; stupefied: stupid from fatigue.

The compilation of the different points of view adds up to stupid. Some of the participants refuse to acknowledge, recognize, or understand, simple logic, obvious facts, or official information. On the other side some participants kept engagement in the argument as if those things would change.

Destroy
–verb
1. to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
2. to put an end to; extinguish.
3. to kill; slay.
4. to render ineffective or useless; nullify; neutralize; invalidate.
5. to defeat completely.
–verb
6. to engage in destruction.

This is what happens to the data if the control signal is subjected to most audio effects.







What I think really happened in this thread was that DjLogan made a suggestion that at first simple glance is reasonable, considering only the way he would like it to function in the end. He was upset that his idea was easily proven to be absurd and refused to recognize it. Deo, had a problem with the way it was exposed. Nether would admit to being wrong in the least, no mater how absurd the argument they tried to make. I still think they dont have a very good understanding of the way the system works.


some shit an old man would say, the type of shit that sticks with you and you can use your whole life -The more you are able to admit being wrong, the more often you are right. just some advice


DjLogan sir, you should apologize for calling me an "ASS", I know exactly what Im talking about and have proven it over and over with good reasoning, facts, and official statements.

DjLogan sir, you should apologize to both Nik and I for the "suck allot of dicks" remark. People agreed with the both of us because we used good reasoning, facts, and official statements.

dont never fucking step to me like that again son
but thanks for the fun :)

man you guys have a lot of time on your hands...

As far as an apology well you not going to get one from me ... I have a right to my opinion as do you ... As far as the context of this Forum FEATURE SUGGESTIONS ... im not absurd or stupid for my suggestion ... and you have no right to say I am ... if you had a different attutude from the beginning I wouldnt have gotten pissed off...

My point of view

Impossible - well it maybe I would have accepted it and read your reasons

but when you add

Absurd - My idea was not absurd ... feature suggestion ... thats what i want ... I dont care what the resolutions is ... in context you suggest im an idiot for asking whether you meant that or not ...

Impractical - In no way is this idea impractical (whatever the end solution is) It was made to make life easier

If you want to come out here and help .... help leave your personal opinions out of it as far as passing judgement ... be aware how your statement may be perseved ... keep to the fact

Unless you represent Serato or Rane anything you say is an opinion ... So your not right about anything you have an opinion

agreed

add to the list:

djing unicorn feature

lemon flavored vinyls

mixer with a rainbow coming out of it

DjLogan, it is clear to me that you are unable, or refuse to understand the words I say. The words I say go right over your head like a stealth bomber, two inches above your head and you dont even notice.

You dont comprehend 'impossibility' and believe anything is possible. You cant recognize a paradox, or an absolute.

You tell me to "keep to the fact", at the same time tell me all I have is opinion.

You speak as if you are right, even though only Rane or Serato staff can be right according to you.

You confuse what people say about you, with what is said about your ideas.

You should probably go handle those first.

I apologize for bringing out my swords on you, it was not fair.

advice: ask questions instead of get upset and frustrated

Actually... you called me asshole, which is a breach of forum rule no. 1.
So someone just needs to push the report button to get you in trouble.



en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org

Your view of the world is very limited I have to say.

bump

ohai! been a while since i posted here.

not to big myself up or to seem high + mighty, but i really thought, that when i posted this in january.. that it would be the end of it. not to say i would end the argument, just to say that this was said in full view of the fact, and only repeated what every sane person on this thread had already said.




anyway. here we are in the here + now.


yes he does. you were being stupid.


yes you would. because you didnt realise your idea was



you wouldnt have accepted it, because you didnt listen to anyone else who was being nice and telling you it wasnt possible..... the sole reason for that is because the idea is totally


with the facts in plain view, it IS absurd. you just dont like that your idea is absurd and absolutely....


yes, it would have made life easier if it was possible, but thats not why its impractical. its impractical because... and heres where i repeat my statement from JANUARY

ITS NOT DOABLE


he did. you were being stupid, it is impractical, and its absurd.

i dont think, of all the people on this forum, you could accuse nik39 of not being helpful.

cue scratchtools and the wiki.

AGAIN it is your opinion it is not doable
AGAIN Im being called stupid for a FEATURE SUGGESTION
But thats all OK cause im not part of your little cult there

And I didnt say anybody wasnt helpful ... if you read I said if your going to help .... help ... leave your personal opinions out of it ... be impartial state the fact BE HELPFULL.

Statements like STUPID IMPRACTICAL and ABSURD should not even be used ... this is a feature suggestion ... Helpfull is saying it is difficult and this is why
Not being confrational because the idea was even suggested

HOW THE HELL CAN YOU CALL A SUGGESTION ABSURD? AN IDEA? You people are totally messed give your heads a shake

DjLogan, I believe those here who say that this feature is technically impossible are correct.

there ya have it folks.

Mod-ownwd

stupid only came into it because people were saying it wasnt technically impossible, but the idea was still being pushed. pushing for the technically impossible is pretty stupid.

dude, you have no idea what youre talking about.

what are you on???

Matt G
Serato, Moderator

I suspect he's on twenty-seven high-grade hits of 100% pure HUMOR!

Humor.

allenbina does not belong to the 95% percent.

...and here I thought I was the only one who did this to exercise my brain. lol


----

I enjoyed all this reading a lot. I even learned a lot. Thanks to all the participants.

... and Matt G... I think you're wrong. *runs & hides* hahahaha

DJLogan owned. i38.photobucket.com

oh yeah he was being funny.


this was proper funny :)

it never surprises me how stupid some people are. this might be really sad, but i feel a lot better about myself after reading this thread.

Very easily. Let me demonstrate:

DJLogan: "Hey everybody I want to have my effects on command pre-serato! I don't care how much it will cost (a grip) or how few can use it (only people with a denon player that has alpha track) and I don't care about anyone who proves that I'm wrong, even a mod!"

Me: "That's absurd."

The End.

Dude this topic was ended in april ... so you just had to bring it back !
dont be a dick ... the idea is not absurd your absurd get a grip have another twinkie and shut the hell up ...

First of all, read here
www.wikihow.com <- click
... then continue here:
en.wikipedia.org <- click


Finally:
Here is what Matt G., an official Serato representative, said:




As you seem to know it better... (I guess we'Re all wrong here - can happen) I suggest you go here:
www.serato.com <- click.

Your comeback is absurd. When you say "your absurd", you make it seem like I have a pet absurd. When in reality, the only person with a pet absurd is you, and your pet being your idea.

If you meant to say "you're absurd", I proved that wrong too. There was nothing absurd about my argument. Let me show you again:


DJLogan: "Hey everybody I want to have my effects on command pre-serato! I don't care how much it will cost (a grip) or how few can use it (only people with a denon player that has alpha track) and I don't care about anyone who proves that I'm wrong, even a mod!"

Me: "That's absurd."

The End.


P.S.- Just because you tell me not to be a dick doesn't mean I'm going to stop shedding light on the absurdity of your concepts.