Well Jump, who cares about you and Traktor. Just delete your account and don't come back. What A Joke.

Utter rubbish.. Rane offered a quality product that stood upt o the rigours of th live envirnoment.

Serato offered an excellent Software solution that utilises the Rane hardware.

NI have literally no track record in producing hardware for the live environment, so while it looks and spec's wise it's good it still needs to last in the dayto day giggind environment that SSL has done the buisness under. Don't forget Final Scratch 2 has a superior Soundcard/box and Native Instruments did the software for that and it worked liek a piece fo sh*t for the most part.

Midi Yup agree awesome, hopefully SSL will encorporate that at a later stage, but really in this day and age who needs a Midi I/O when USB will carry it just as well. You just need the software to generate an internal click, not that big a deal

Traktor Skratch looks good and interests me immmensly, but I think it's a bit early for people to jump ship but please do i'll be reading all the problems on the NI forums and watching the feedback from the NI reps - oh no wait!!! lol!

Hah, that dude joined in Feb of this year.

I got TS also but I have no intentions of jumping ship, let alone using it in a live environment any type soon. And I sure as hell wouldn't sell my SL1. Sure, TS has some nice features, but just like when Torq came out and everyone was raving like it was the third coming of Jesus, about how it's supposed to be a Serato killer, then after a few months people started complaining and feeling letdown and short-changed, and ultimately came back to SSL (search the Torq threads). Hell, I think SSL gets mentioned more on the Torq forums than Torq itself. I've already seen some negative posts also on the TS forums. I agree with Monk-A, FS2 was "supposed" to be superior to SSL in "every" way, and we all know how that went, eh.

I wouldn't start counting my chickens before the eggs are done hatching...

you's a herb. jump ship. I hope it blows up.

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! I'M ANGRY!!!!!!!

DON'T U TALK ABOUT MY SL-1, SUCKA-FOO'!!!!!!

MORE THAN HALF OF YOUR MESSAGE CONTAINS CAPITAL LETTERS. TO MANY FORUM USERS, THIS MEANS YOU ARE SHOUTING YOUR MESSAGE, AND IS CONSIDERED TO BE BAD FORUM ETIQUETTE. PLEASE CONSIDER EDITING YOUR MESSAGE SO THAT THERE ARE FEWER CAPITAL LETTERS.

;-)

Chickens with hereditary genetic problems at that !

Huuuuuuuh (Let's out a big yawn).....going back to sleep now.

You guys make me laugh so hard it hurts i almost pissed my pants. You guys are comedy at its true form.

THeir box doesnt look as tough as ssls. Looks like it might break easy, but then again you cant tell much from pictures.

Glad you're happy - have fun - and we WILL talk about you behind your back while you're gone. And we WILL talk more shit the moment you return when you find some flaws.

it might be better, just not for me. I perfer being able to upgrade for free and support, something NI have not been good at (they already want users to upgrade and spend more money getting Traktor 3 for more features, to me that is a joke)

Quite the contrary, it's pretty solid. The Audio8 weighs about twice as much and is about 25% smaller than the SL1.

Hehe... fanboys are all out the bush i see.

Ok, sure we'll have too see how stable this thing is. But since NI is very well founded in the software department I don't see why their products shouldn't run as well as SSL. Also remember although very stable SSL has its its quirks as well.

The thing is, the moment I got SSL between my hands i felt it was a product where every corner was cut so that they could come up with and upgraded box sooner or later when the market was mature for that. I guess i feel i was setup for an upgrade thing. I mean look at it USB 1.0 really come on!!! limited in connectivity, upgrade worthy in sound quality... hmmm

Just ask yourself if you would be surprised if Rane is coming out with a box on par with what NI is offering? Thats what i thought. Can't blame them for being business minded. No hard feeling but be realistic.

Quirks? What quirks? The final releases are about as spot on as you're going to get from ANY software company. Serato is not only serving for a SL1 unit but for a full on mixer, the TTM57. You are out of your mind to think or even compare these two products. When these companies play catch up with there highly gifted lights bells and whistle bullshit tactics, and the general public thinks this is a solid foundation to start with, we'll see soon enough what product lasts and gets crowned "Industry Standard".

My SL-1 works great, takes abuse and is rock solid.

My Scratch Live software is awesome, and my music library is organized.

Why switch? There's no reason for me. I already bough Torq out of curiousity and was extremely disappionted.

I'm the DJ. I've got the skills to make SSL do what I want, when I want. I don't need a microwave, cause Serato's fire.

WRONG!!! Usb 1.0 is more then enough to move audio packets and leave room for other stuff, you only really need to move over to USB 2.0 if you are moving huge levels of date, and seeing as SSL buffers the music you needen't concern yourself that USB 1.0 will under perform.



Your right it should run as well as serato consideirng all the VST's and software they've written in the past. It's a real shame that with all that experience and supeiror hardware tehy STILL coudlnt' get Final Scratch to even suck Serato's balls.
Ontop of that their software, VST's etc... is notorious for being buggy on release.



What exactly is the box offering thats different to Serato? It's got better sound quality granted. Midi I/O, you don't need the I/O ports in this day and age to run Midi as you can just patch it through USB so again no need to upgrade the SL1 just yet.

Besides they've already upgraded the SL1, it's called the Rane 57.

It's easy to stand back and say fan boys when your posting on a serato dedicated forum about a totally untested Application



Well certainly no hard feelings if traktor turns out to be the better app i'm sure a lot of people will jump ship, and do it after the trade in offer NI are doing to drum up initial buisness.

But as for being realistic, you ned to step back look at a tried and tested product against a new jack. New and all singing dosen't mean better it means different, different means more choice more choice means better for us as consumers.

But unobjective mindless "traktor Skratch for life" childish posts like your's do nobody any favours, head on over to www.skratchworx.com if you want to chat about NI's Traktor Skratch, do not pass go and do not collect $200, and read some correctly informed views on why it's waaaaaaaaaaaay to early to be masturbating in your own faeces like you currently are.

Peace

He must be kidding, i mean, he did look at pictures and read spec sheets off the manu's website. Just go buy it, if you want bells and whistles, i want something that emulates records, and i have it, plain and simple, if i wanted to run a million vst's and be hammering my midikeyboard like some sunglasses-at-night wearing cutoffshirt wearing dj to play my fruityloops it might be for me.

You guys are cracking me up. He got me with i am jumping ship. Mybe we should blind fold him tie his hands and make him walk the plank for mutiny.

ok i own TDJS 2 (with FS2) and 3 and i own SSL. SSL beats TDJS hands down on reliability. It takes an act of god for NI to put out an update that ACTUALLY Fixes the problems that the customers are compaining about... and when they do finaly put an update out that does fix the issues..... they make you pay for it!!! TDJS crashes the PC every night when i close it out at the strip club i use it at (works great for that type of DJing where I cant realy use Tables or cd decks to control the software) I always have to kep a few cd readin the cd player and/or have my powerbook set up with SSL ready to go to play a few tracks internaly untill i can get the pc tower restarted.

I still use FS2 with TDJS2/3 in studio work... but i dont trust it for live work.. b/c in the studio WHEN if fucks up.. it does not mess up the whole night b/c in the studio i can just stop and restart where i left off. So on that note... if you want to switch to FS.. go ahead.. just remember... YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED from peeps who HAVE used NI dj products b4... and yes SSL has its quirks... but at least you dont have to pay anything for the update when they fix the issue!!

I really don't see SL-1 and Rane 57 being the same product. The price difference is huge among other things.

From messing around with Traktor software before, I will say that i like the GUI of SL-1 better.

I don't think that referring to FS makes any sense. This is a different product.

I still think that if one presumes that TS is as stable as SL-1 then it should be a superior product. Neither of us knows wether its more or less stable than SSL so its pointless to base the discussion on this aspect.

As far as I know SL-1 cannot work with a midi to throw in samples etc. But please enlighten me? So if I wanted to do that i would have to run Ableton in the background or something, problem is to my experience this is a problem for SL-1. Even if it worked I would have to buy Ableton so why not get it in one package with TS.

I dunno, SSL is not a bad product but if TS does what it says and the GUI is enhanced I can't see any other way that it will be superior to SSL.

I'm a SSL fanboy! (LOL) Look man SSL is proven and it works in the REAL world. All that other shit works good while your entertaining those posters on your wall. In a packed hall, bar, club, arena, block party, etc, etc........ SSL is PROVEN period! Tech 1200's R PROVEN period, so if it ain't broke don't fix it. To the Serato guys if ya listnin', don't change a thing just keep the upgrades stable and nature will take it's course. Nobody cares about changing fonts, skin color, wave views and all that other crap, just reliable stable gear and rockin the crowd.

well said

doesn't work with Vista... oh - ain't that about a bitch.

wel if you have TDJS 3 and pay for the upgrade for it to work with vista you can use the program without TS and just microwave it.... yes they charged intel mac users to upgrade for TDJS3 to work with intell macs (but if it was registered on a non-intel mac you could upgrade it for free)... so you know they will charge extra for the vista compatability

LOL... fo'real!! Oh, that sucks. Blowing what out of the water? I'm ready to pony up for the 1.8 video OPTIONAL plug in but have enjoyed 3 years of FREE UPGRADES !!!


Jump in fools. The TRAP-TOR water is fine.

Relax Guys. It was all just a Typo from the OP. It really was supposed to say...

"Traktor Scratch!Blows SSL!"

with a paid reach around.

Before you jump can i have your serato box that way i do not have to unhook my box from my 1200's at home when i go play at the club and can you throw in the plugs also

In 45 min it will be added that....


TS swallows too!

LOL. I really don't have a thing against TS. I also have no experience with it or any other Digital solution besides SSL. I am all for healthy compatition.

i agree. but hope we´re getting usb-midi (no need 5-5pin-midi in/out) and the oportunity to trigger a ssl-internal sampler with it :)
but no bells´n´whistles the most importeant is latency! if tractor scratch had a better latency and is stable i might agree that it is superior..

final scratch = ni tractor scratch = ni
nothing like fs3 with an box not made by stanton but by ni now

And if your records are not in bad codition i'll take those too

im ordering TS later this month.. its only 400 beans whats the big deal? Im interested in trying out things like its effects output, midi contol, auto loops and seeing how the 2khz timecode reacts and how well the ASIO works. I also like how it incorporates your explorer into its crate system (i requested that for ssl a long time ago).

You can already tell though from their forum that this software is gonna take a while to be real stable... so maybe it will suck or maybe it wont, either way it doesnt hurt to give it a try.

Of course you can. It's Serato not Final Snatch. But you will regret it later...



What the hell do you think makes a company dominate? Shitty products? Ugh, No. Kia makes a freakin' sedan fully loaded with all the bells and whistles for under 18 G's. Why aren't they dominating the car market? Crap in, crap out...c'ya.



You're obviously still here. Please leave. Thank you. ;-P

Lemme see... I've been using SSL for a year now with no issues (other than the one's I created)... New product comes out and you say it's better?

Try using it (TS) for a year, then come back here and reason...

Bless

Isn't this their 3rd attempt?? Screwing their own customers along the way to stay current???

This might be good/great whatever - but if you bought all of them - you'd be damn near a TTM57 in money spent..... Now that is just SAD!!!

the only issue with that statement is.... NI has been making DJ software for alot longer then SSL has been around and they still have yet to make it stable even after years more exp.

yeh true.. but worst case scenario is that you end up selling it and have even more confidence that serato is the best dvs out there.

You guys keep trying to talk Him out of it don't do that i am trying to get his serato box

damm dude, sounds like you're making your decision off a box design! all you talk about is the design of the box! what a tool

Going by Native Instruments' lengthy track record, the final release is likely to be less stable than any "Public Beta 1" version of SSL.

They're great at creating marketing hype, but their follow-through and customer support both suck (to be blunt). The only time you ever see any meaningful communication from NI's developers on their user forums is when they want to sell some new update or new product.

It's also very telling that when it comes to bugs, they discourage open communication about them on their forums...you're supposed to submit a "form" to the developers which (at least in my case) proved to be a complete waste of time.

Anyway given NI's past behavior, presuming TS will be as stable as SSL is just plain laughable.

Haha... you all crack me up, many funny replies.

I respect the concent that it is difficult to follow Serato on stability and it sure is a nice thing that updates don't cost extra.

Actually I'm not jumping anywhere, other than back in my old little boat. I have started to buy lots of vinyl again recently ;)

Now if i could just have a sampler function in my SSL. Actually thats the one thing i miss the most. I don't even care if its seperate from the program.

LOL. I thought (from what I remember) that this post was out of your character Massiv. Anyway.. You miss your sampler? why don't you just use it in conjuction with SSL?

You know that list of DJ's who use SSL? There should be a list of DJ's who switched to another product THEN came back to SSL. Like a HALL OF SHAME with pictures and all. :)

I think it's great to look for innovation but jumping into anything new too soon is one of the greatest mistakes of the consumer.

I'm not gonna hate, but I'll be laughing my ass off if you're disappointed in the end.

What kind of idiot comes onto a SSL board and tells everyone how much better another product is?

Well... what I'm looking for is something simple. My idea is that I would be able to assign keys on my labtops keyboard to samples. So i could f.ex just press "a" button and get a horn sound. Something like that. Then just have the sound come out of my computers sound output so I can control the volume on a seperate channel on my mixer (SSL box is only 2 channel). Thats my idea anyways.

There's your problem Massic... it's a LAPTOP not a labtop.

Now wonder. :P

I mean... Massiv

that will never happen, you understand why they bypass the computers soundcard? Also, in next version of SSL you will have midi...which means you assign "A" button to excute a key combination, or customize the layout. You would be better to wire your pc into the aux of your mixer and use some software sampler, or even better, a hardware sampler, since that's what they are for....Would you want your mixer to also be the MC?

Maybe you didn't know, but someone here made a program just to do that, FlossyFX. Does exactly what you say. Press A, get an airhorn, press S, siren. There's other sounds too. Can't add you own yet, but it's a start... scratchlive.net

It outputs though your headphone out on the computer, hook up to another line input on your mixer.

lmao!

Thanks for the heads up on FlossyFX. But now that i think about it, it would be better if it was built into ssl. Reason being that I would have to switch between programs and that could be a problem while at the same time controlling the mix. Would get me busy on punching buttons.

Yeah. I thought the same thing. My old trusty iBook doesn't have USB dropouts not even when I'm running several programs, but the time wasted when switching applications kills the point of having samples anyway. I want them as fast as possible, for radio use.

Get a sampler. Problem solved.

i have to agree but i don´t want to judge it too early.. we will get to know if its stable or not...

i don´t want to pay that much just for adding some drops and allways have to carry such a unit with me so such a ssl-sampler would be awesome in my opinion but we should be able to turn it off in the setup... i don´t like your flossy-fx konix because i have to switch windows to use it and i can´t use my own samples and don´t have a one-shot-mode. a ssl-sampler should have this... but if i could use a trigger-finger to controll something like an improoved flossy-fx WITHOUT having to switch windows all the time i would be happy too...

the performance, stability and the latency are most important and all those bells´n´whistles might be nice but would never get me to switch, no way :D

i agree with you massiv+sixxx...

good samplers like the sp404 are quite expensive for just adding horns and are another thing to carry around>>> a small programm is way better... so why not implement it? when it can be turned off it would not bother the people who don´t want to use it

I never said it was mine, I didn't make that, just posted the link for anyone interested.

I just want his box

ohh sry that´s why you didn´t change it :D

download the 57 SL sampler fx here:

featuresuggestions.com

:()

i´m not a 57sl owner :((

BUT does it have PONG!!

and his control records.. don't forget that. :)

Oh yea and the records too

If he wants to go back to the start and go through all the bugs again let him you guys you know what i say. I want the box. Like Eddy murphy said in the movie the golden child i want the knife.

TDJS studio (the super ver of the TS software) does not have samples like that.. it does have 4 virtual decks but no sampler like that......unless they added it in the past 2 or 3 days sence i last checked for an update for TDJS (always looking for updates to make it work right..... but never find them)

^^^ i do find updates for TDJS...... they just never fix the problems with it fully

I was spinnin on a local harbor cruise ship and dropped my SL1 overboard last weekend. Good thing Tractor Scratch! came along and blew it right out of the water. I was worried I wouldn't see it again.

Hahahahahahahaha!!!

Is this the same SL-1 that the Rane team drove an explorer over and found that it worked fine. The link for the pic's down but here's more info about the "test"
scratchlive.net

I wish they would put that picture back up. So many times I have wanted to reference it.

lol have you tried the link but edit the first part of it
original

www.seratoscratchlive.com

changed

www.scratchlive.net

LOL .....hahahahahahaha someone said labtop again !!!

Hahah...thats great!

PWN3D!

ROFLMAO!

One of the main reasons why I am HERE is because of Native Instruments and their "software" and the problems and issues I have had over the last year.

A few good friends of mine were the "poster boys" for Final Scratch (think Detroit Techno) and when I finally felt the need to move to digital, Final Scratch was my first thought so I bought Final Scratch 1.5 and a iBook G4 (and yes, I am a Mac fan boy). .

Uh oh, incompatible - Traktor 1.5 only works with 10.3.9 or below and my iBook shipped with 10.4 and I couldn't downgrade the OS. So my buddy bought the Final Scratch 2 Scratch Amp from one of the Techno Poster Boys mentioned above (he had moved to Serato) so I figured I would buy Traktor DJ Studio 2 but at that time Stanton and NI were parting ways and Traktor DJ Studio 2 had been discontinued for Traktor 3 (with higher recommended system requirements - more than my iBook G4).

I tried to buy Traktor 2.6 but no more copies from NI (but discontinued) but I found a used copy on ebay and I am jumping through hoops to get it registered.

I said screw it and decided to buy Serato - done deal.

In the meantime my buddy has his heart bent on final scratch since he has made the investment and we used Traktor 2 with his new HP laptop this past weekend and couldn't get the damn thing to work right (reinstalled Drivers). Only one side worked, it was a nightmare.

A week or two ago I was able to run the Traktor 2.6 demo on my iBook on internal node with no issues (Mac thing .vs Windows I think).

The NI software in my opinion is very buggy and poorly coded. Maybe since they parted ways with Stanton it has gotten better but the bar on Traktor Scratch is pretty high as far as system requirements.

Good coded software (like Serato) should work on fairly recent Hardware as well as the latest and greatest. There are people here who run Serato on G3 iBooks (five year old computer with no issues).

From the software side, any company that makes good stable software which is backwards compatible with recent hardware for a reasonable amount of time is OK in my book.

Thanks Serato...

Na Na Na Na; Hey hey hey Goodbye. More serato for the rest of us :)

I'll give you $300 for the sl1 box and I don't care if anything is missing all I want is the box PM me! Let me know and once I buy it don't come back...lol

That funny. He's in Beijing though.

No i asked for the box first he said he is jumping ship. I want the box and the records and the wires.

That funny. He's in Beijing though.

It's ok we can set something up. I buy things all over the world.

I'll post this in here instead of starting a new thread.

Here's a review of Traktor Scratch along with screenshots, latency figures, and some (bad quality but cool) video...

www.nem0nic.com

Thanks nem0nic, I've been waiting for your review. Reading now.

good review mate

So latency wise not much has been improved... thats 13ms latency for Traktor Scratch compared to 8ms for SSL and 14ms for FS2 on your system.

Ultra low latency should be something different. 13ms is more than 75% more latency than SSL has and equals to ... if you recap what Steve wrote and explained here scratchlive.net ... about 6.5cm offset.

So basically I don't understand all the fluff NI has made with the change to USB2. It seems like their marketing department made the whole thing.


However, latency is only one part of the whole story, admitted a very important one, but authentic vinyl reproding sound is important as well. I'll see what I can tell about this once my copy of TS arrives.

I no longer have any interest in trying to be a pied piper for any particular DVS, but I can tell you that alot of the assumptions we've made about latency are inaccurate. You and I have hinted at this in some of our more recent discussions about the real value of the needle drop test and whether it's an accurate representation of performance.

No system I've ever used tracks as accurately as Traktor Scratch. It's absolute mode is dead on, and movements are perfectly reproduced. Anyone that puts their hands on Traktor Scratch will at least percieve it latency as being as good as SSLs, if not better. It also tracks movements accurately that would choke other DVS (try moving a record at 4% and see watch as they sit there still until the platter moves fast enough to determine play position). Reverse decoding is also better than anything I've experienced. And all functionality is available in both absolute and relative mode.

If I had access to another SSL we could maybe illustrate this point further, but I'm guessing that Gizmo will be able to touch on this more than I can. I lost my SSL hookup when I moved away from Atlanta.

The move to USB2 was done for several reasons, but I haven't seen any of them mentioned in any marketing materials either online or in print. What are you referring to?

scratchlive.net

I think I read somewhere that USB2 would also trim down latency compared to USB1 of SSL, but I cant find the reference right now.

Needle drop latency is indeed not very important, but I still think that latency is a very important performance factor.


When we are talking about latency... how would that be possible if the latency is in fact worse?

If we compare different aspects we have to divide them and not mix several technical aspects.



How did you test this? I have no idea how to playback a record at 4% constant speed. Sampling the timecode and playing back at 4% is obviously a different thing and wont work here as with different vinyl speeds you also have a different volume level, and I have no clue about the correlation between speed and volume.



This this a subjective statement, right?
I havent seen any difference regarding forward vs. backward tracking in SSL for example.



Can you elaborate?

Perhaps this discussion is already dead.... but wanted to add my comments in anyway. :-)

I started off buying FS2 as my first experience with moving my records to the laptop. A lot of the radio and club DJ's I spin with were raving about FS1.5, so I figured the updated version and hardware MUST be better.... WRONG. Completely unusable. I switched to SSL and was confident enough in it to start using it live within a week. Want to know what all those same club and radio FS users are doing these days? Using SSL.

Here are my problems with Native Instruments:
* For all the supposed "features," the core functionality is unstable.
* The support people are arrogant punks
* They charge for every so-called upgrade (that never seems to be improve the basic functionality issues)
* Due to their fascist licensing model, you can only run the software on a single machine. Want to move it to another machine? You practically need a United Nations resolution to get it done. So, again, you have to pay out the a$$ if you want a backup laptop. With SSL, I have it installed on 5 different machines between the radio station, clubs, my studio, and mobile rigs. Just install and go... no licenses... no fees.

In fact, my FS2 box is still sitting collecting dust where I gave up on it after months of wrangling with NI. Perhaps one of these people mesmerized by slick NI marketing materials will buy it off me. You can encase it in acrylic and make a little shrine out of it or something.

^^once i switched to SSL i sold my FS 1.5 on eBay got like £180 plus P&P but the funny thing about this story when i sent FS i packed it in the only box i had lying about..... My SSL box

But again, we've only measured the needle drop latency. Overall system performance is harder to measure, and I believe this is why no one tries to measure it. I have an idea of how to more accurately measure total performance, but I need some help and access to an SSL system.


Traktor Scratch has a display showing platter speed. Moving the platter at all registers in the application and shows up in the display. I'm on a shoot now, but I can take screencaps of this later tonight for you.


I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. I wasn't targeting that statement as much towards SSL users as old FS2 users for whom reverse decoding was a problem.


Yeah, looping, keylock, beat jumping, effects, etc can all be evoked in both modes. Of course, in the matter of effects like looping and beat jumping, where by thier nature they take the system out of absolute mode, the system switches to relative mode seamlessly. It will switch back again automatically if you wish when you drop the needle into the lead in (set in prefs).

True. Share your thoughts.



A screencap would not really help. I thought you have some sort of procedure how to play back at 4% speed.

VIP - Very Important Points.

Nik when are you expecting to get TS?

N: Are you able to use the xone filters and the effects at the same time or are you limitted to basically any 1 effect no matter what? Also, have you tried controlling the effects via midi?

from nemonics page


this is excatcly what im talking about with NI in my post.. they have issue.. put out a fix... THAT DOES NOT FIX THE ISSUES.. lol

Like it or not, knocking an incumbent from their perch in the DJ world is among the most difficult things to do.

Technics 1200
Pioneer CDJ-1000
.... and drum roll please, Serato Scratch Live...

the one case that is obvious to me of a tried and true go to piece of equipment getting eclipsed and replaced en masse is the Vestax 05 being replaced by many for the Rane TTM-56.. but that's only within a specific subset of DJs out there and not even across the board since to this day you'll still find scratch heads who treat their 05 like the second coming of their savior. The three above have had their challengers, and in many cases, technically superior competitors, and they still sit atop the hill.

DJ gear for whatever reason, is about more than just a check list, bullet point comparison of A to B.

yeah i had to lear it the hard way... but in the end a good performing tool is much more worth then somethin gwith more bells´n´whistles...

Fuck that, I'm sticking with SSL!

i went to sound expo this year and the NI box that was on demo was falling apart,and when i got chatting to the guy spining he said that it's not as good as SSL!

you know what's worse than people who proclaim something as the best thing ever before they even try it? It's the people that proclaim something is crap before they try it.

looking forward to hearing more real hands-on reviews... probably won't pick it up myself but I'm interested in what it can do. I think the only chance someone has to de-throne SSL is whenever Rane feels like they need to release the SL2 - that's probably one of the best times for a company to take some market-share...

I dont think anyones proclaimed it's crap, peopel ar ejust reserving judgment until it's been tested and put through ti's paces proeprly...

I am interested in TS, but I have to admit, it will take one hell of a product to move me off of the 57. The merging of an amazing scratch mixer and an integrated control surface for use with SSL, plus built in effects, all of which can be improved over time with firmware upgrades...

WORD!

I was talking to friend and he said stanton was doing some thing were you could use there box with serato some one let me know if this is true. He has final scratch is he just pulling my leg.

Hey grand, I've got a CD from a backpack rap group called D4L. IT's very rare, as no one's heard of 'em. For you, I'll sell the CD for $1 million, cash only.

FS has made there box open for anyone who wants to develop software to work with there system... but no company who already has a box will be doing something that will cut $ from there profits and put it in someone elses pockets

Thats exactly my question.

However, I've experimented a little and I can say that at less than 1rpm (that is about 3% pitch) I can still make SSL track and sound ok. But whats the practical benefit? Who plays back tracks at such slow speeds?

Hahaha. That's funny!

Yes, the Xone filters are usable in conjunction with the effects. And the effects work very well with a MIDI controller. I have been using a cheap ass Behringer Nano for effect control and key change and it's perfect for it. it's especially good to have a knob to turn for the Bitcrusher effect.


The "Traktor Scratch Certified" program is kind of a direct competition for the TTM57. Right now there are 4 mixers that will work with TS without any additional audio interface. The Mackies are both more performance oriented and the Korgs are mix oriented. More mixers will be certified throughout the year. I like this approach for a couple reasons. First, it gives me the freedom to choose a mixer instead of being locked into just one. And second, it has more potential to be adopted by nightclubs who often need more than a 2 channel mixer. The potential is there for a DJ to be able to walk into a club without an audio interface at all and hook into the club's mixer. That combined with the multicore cables is a move in the right direction. But whether anyone adopts it is another story.


What disturbed said. The Stanton Scratchamp is now available as an interface for any "open" DVS. Stanton is also offering developers an SDK and license to use their timecode to companies. It's possible that we'll see some existing products incorporate Stanton's product into their own, but I think it's more likely that smaller companies with smaller R&D resources will use the Stanton SDK to get a product into the DVS market quickly and easily. But no, I don't see the Serato guys tampering with a good thing by opening up the hardware.


This is what I did. I thought it would be confusing to people to put -96%, so I opted to say 4% instead. I guess I wan't too clear in any case.

Look who's talking..... You must be one of those Fanboys that just pass buy, go on piss off.

BTW, SSL is still suffering from a sound flaw where it adds high pitch noise to low frequency. Here is a sample...

Original sweep 10Hz -> 200Hz
ssl-test.help.bootlegs.de <-click

ORiginal sweep played in rel mode (you can hear very little pops)
ssl-test.help.bootlegs.de <- click

And now I am scratching with the beginning of the track... if you listen to it closely you can hear how there is added high pitched noised:
ssl-test.help.bootlegs.de <- click

This problem has been reported almost 3 (!) years ago, scratchlive.net <- click.


nem0nic, I assume Traktor Scratch does not have this kind of issue?

I can't believe someone starts a thread mentioning that a product is better partially because of aesthetics. I don't think a little black box is meant to look awesome, only functional. I just like knowing that it keeps working no matter how many times it gets kicked on the floor and beat around the booth.

To be very honest, I really don't know. I know that the sales people will reconmand Traktor. It is really all about the commercial that they put out. I must admit that there is a little digital sounds when the records is moving at -90.0 with Scratch Live and I hope Serato will step up to the plate and come out with updates that will fix that problem. I brought SSL for a reason. Please don't let me down. Keep up the good work.

Limin

On a side note this needs to be added....

Tracktor has gotten VERY creative with the marketing. If you own an 'tracktor approved' mixer or other component you don't even have to hook up the Tracktor box!

I've been waiting for the release of the Mackie d.4. It was originally going to ship with MixVibes but instead is now 'traktor approved' which means I snag the software and it's ready to do.

Nem0nic, I'll post some info on the mixer when I finally get one...

And I still owe you a review.... Just so you know, I'm still working on it!

You still have to pay $339 for the upgrade software and TCV/CD. Just cause you have the d4 or other certified mixer doesn't mean you get the TS software for free.

I think all these products are probably pretty good. I mean the market would dictate that so if they weren't good then they would disappear. Its mainly about interface and your personal uses and preferences. I like this one best so far. What would really be cool is if these hardware companies would get away from these software companies and make their equipment open source or a universal language so we could choose our hardware interface and our software interface seperately.


13oh3...nva

Yo Nik.. Can you scribble that skow, frenzie it up, @ that speed?

What do you mean iclick?

Sheesh...VISTA doesnt work with VISTA. What else is new?

I never meant to imply that the software was free - only that it wouldn't require purchase of the NI hardware.

I have read about the Traktor Scratch Certified thing, but what seems to seperate the 57 from this idea is that the 57 has true dedicated user-definable controls specifically for SSL built in, whereas, in the case of the Mackies (from what I have seen), there is no tactile hands-on control for the software built into the hardware of the mixer (and to be honest, while I do have a long history of using Mackie products, ranging from the SRM-450s to the HR824's and a handful of their live sound desks, their initial forays into the DJ market have left me completely underwhelmed, and based on my readings around the internet, I am wary of their business practices and cost-cutting measures that leave the consumer with inferior products). Also, and this point will be elaborated on in the following paragraph as well, the Rane-Serato partnership seems firmly established with a long-term vision for the application and use of not only the 57, but also the mp4, sl1, and SSL in general. That is true integration, not just an outside hardware manufacturer making a product that meets a handful of guidelines set forth by a separate company with no actual and material connection to the well being of said hardware manufacturer.

The Rane-Serato partnership seems strongly cemented while I feel that the Traktor Scratch certification would be a much less stable group of relationships, with these other companies essentially having to alter their established business model to tow the NI line. This type of relationship is rarely a long term and stable relationship in the business world in general, and in high-end electronics in particular. The SSL team seems highly dedicated to the overall success and development of the product, with neither Rane nor Serato taking a backseat in the process, and both sides firmly committed to the team concept. From the extremely shaky relationship of NI/Stanton, I am wary of the ability of NI to make these business relationships work, as blaming the other party for every defect (and vice versa, as Stanton returned the favor and blamed all problems on NI)is no way to make a relationship last.

Look at the history of the Rane-Serato team, and note how each side owns up to issues that fall under their responsibility, and there is no finger pointing. If there is a problem, they acknowledge the problem, find the root of the problem, and fix the problem. There is no wasted energy trying to convince the end user that the problem originated because of the other partners' portion of the product.

And I wouldn't be surprised if there was a drawing board deep in the bowels of Rane HQ with a 3/4 channel mixer with integrated SSL (although, due to screen real-estate and processing requirements, I would imagine that only 2 of the channels of the mixer could control SSL at a given time, which I think would be fine for the vast majority of users).

But again, I am not ruling TS out by any means. I think that a healthy dose of competition will benefit every party committed to participating in this market.

So keep us posted, nem0nic, as you find more info and spend more time with the system.

Well said, grilla.

This is almost as good as a 1200 vs (name your turntable) discussion.

I have to give NI credit for their marketing. Make an innovative but problematic product; provide little to no support; scrap product for one that has more bells and whistles than a competing product and offer an "upgrade" to competing product's users; provide little to no support; scrap product; repeat as often as necessary to keep the money coming in before people catch on.

As I've said many times before, this isn't a zero-sum game. There are enough DJs that no one is really fighting for market share, and one product has never been enough for everyone.

Personally, I like idea that I can use my DVS of choice with the mixer of my choice. So the idea of the TS certification appeals more to me than the TTM57 (which I could not use even in my personal studio because it lacks the number of channels I want). And the Korg mixers with their MIDI control are much more appealing to me. If you look at the requirements for Traktor Scratch and the current mixer market, it's not suprising to see many other mixers that are able to be certified (Ecler and Allen & Heath both have products that could fit into the TS certification program). NI has already made partnerships with many companies and their MIDI capable products - it's only a small matter of time until we see more mixers (from the same hardware manufacturers) in the TS lineup.

As for the close pairing of mixer and software, Traktor products have extensive MIDI implementation. In the TS certification program, the 2 Korg mixers send MIDI out. It's quite possible to use the mixer and timecode alone to completely control all aspects of Traktor Scratch without using the computer.

I can't speak to NI's ability to deliver better customer support. I don't work for them, I don't have a crystal ball in front of me, and quite frankly I don't care anymore. I don't run any of these companies, and they will live or die by their own actions, not mine. What I care about is the technology of digital DJing, and how that technology suits me. To that end, I'm excited by the developments of the last year or so. Torq is an insane package for the price, the pairing of SSL and Numark's iCDX means that developers are starting to look at embedded solutions and taking control hardware seriously, and the MIDI controller market for DJs has exploded. All of that means we all get more choices and eventually better products.

No one (especially not me) is trying to be a pied piper luring DVS users to one platform or another. You use what want to use - what feels most comfortable to you. I'm all for it. The only system I've EVER been openly critical about is VirtualDJ. That's because I've had my hands on it several times and it's been nothing but trouble every single time. Even then, I don't go around dogging it and it's users. If someone asks me a question, I answer it based on my experience.

Hey Nik, is there a reason why you used relative mode to playback that sweep? If there is, I will run the test using relative as well and post the results.

So nem0mic, being that you got yours free to test, would you buy it if you had to?

I was planning on buying it. It wasn't a guarantee that I was getting it for free. It fits pretty well in my setup feature-wise, and I'm used to the NI software interface by now. But I also just bought Ableton Live 5 and and in the process of trading someone for Torq, so I'll have those as well.

I got Ableton Live because I'm about to have my own dog in the DJ equipment fight and need a legit copy for testing.

Well, it was just laziness. But I see your point...

As SSL has made rel mode drift-free I dont think it will make a difference, but I will retry again if there are any arguments why rel mode would be a "trick".

ohkay bye traitor

serato has won me battles....u think i will become a traitor like u...wait untill u use it and wait till july till rane comes out with 1.8....dnt jump bak!

lol x2



Please elaborate.

I'm currently working with an established hardware company designing a DJ oriented MIDI controller for Ableton Live. That's all I can share for now.

Well, I just came back from Guitar Center and Sam Ash and neither had it in stock. I wnated to at least try it out. Dude in GC said he just sold the last one. Yeah Right. Why do they always say that when they don't have something.

I should have known better, they never have anything worth buying. It's like walking into Foot Locker and all they have is Pro-Keds all day, everyday. No Shure's but the got Stanton's for days. It should be called Generic Center and Sam Ass.

lol :)

People were asking about the single channel mode in Traktor Scratch in earlier threads. I did a video of it to demonstrate how it works.

media.libsyn.com

This thread should be locked and put into the archives along with the Torq thread.


Btw, you can rig Serato for limited midi control ;)

I bought traktor scratch last wednesday, was running fine in my studio, then friday at a gig, as i was playing my second track, the A8 packed up.

Tried everything to get it up and running but wasnt working.

Took it back to shop and picking up serato today.

In my own opinion serato is much more stable then traktor scratch.

Itcs called emergency mode... you also said in the video that one would not want to stay in that mode, but you didn't explain what the pitfalls are in that mode. Can you explain? Does needle drop still work?

BTW, if it really works not only with the very simple forward/backward movement as shown in your video, this is impressive.

Here is the ford explorer test photo for those of you who were looking for it: www.scratchlive.net

i saw tha word blow, and was instantly curious.

comin back to the Traktor scratch issue, i think its strange that the crossgrade offer expires end of may. seems like they want u to buy it blind without proper rating of club stability. suspicious. and who knows whether the sound quality justifies the extra money.

Nevertheless I´m curious.

Nah, Nik. It's not nearly as responsive in emergency mode. And hardcore manipulation of the vinyl will throw it off position until a solid signal is obtained again. You couldn't do a routine in this mode, but you could certinaly get through a night of mixing if you had to. Needle drops still work, but they are also not as responsive. You can also trick it into moving backwards in emergency mode, which is not something you want as a possibility.

But as you could hear, there wasn't a drop in audio when the channel dropped, and recallibration wasn't necessary when the channel was reconnected. Audio isn't disturbed at all, which means that (for instance) an intermittant short on a channel won't throw Traktor Scratch into fits.

Funny.. get money before it's exposed.. ;P

Yes, TS has the same problem. It doesn't sound exactly like SSL's, but there's definitely something similar and noticeable.

I will post a sample later.

Here's an audio sample of TS's logsweep distortion...

konix.phpnet.us

(zip file, watch your speakers also, low frequencies)

:( this is only downloading as a text file. Is it just me?

Here's the Explorer pic... img186.imageshack.us

Konix - Thanks thats my new desktop picture

I'll do one with a direct link tomorrow morning. I had to work today. I'll also have a new video showing Traktor Scratch's ability to handle massive low frequency feedback.

lol... "as you could hear"... you *are* aware that the video quality *and* sound quality is not the greatest ;) (no pun)

I think it's because the file is called xxx.jpeg - download and rename .txt to .jpg

I'll bet the Torq or Traktor box couldn't hang with that!

Yeah, I have a really crappy camera. I'm looking into an better one with a composite or S-VHS output so I can hook it up directly to my desktop and capture the live video. I'll have something better soon, but right now it's what I got.

Sorry, I got booked today and had to work after all, then got roped into a movie.

Hey Nik, that file you sent me does indeed sound like ass when played back through TS. I would say it's worse than the SSL playback you posted. I've sent the file to the beta group and devs to work on (and credited you with the bug find!). Thaks for the heads up.

Gizmo hot his demo unit, but will be testing on a G4. I'm thinking that it's not going to be a stellar review - what do you think? :)

Serve's you right for cheating on serato. lol!!!

I ordered it for $380 today.. not bad.. Im not sure how the resale on it works as far as the crossgrade goes, but if it sucks then ill sell it in a couple months and probably make a profit if i dont have to sell it as a crossgrade. I plan on doing alot of side by side testing.. kinda excited to see how it turns out!

Make sure that you report back to us yuri!

Yes Guinea Pig... I mean yuri. :P

lol well it actually arrived today and i jetted home during lunch to mess around with it for a few minutes.

First impressions.. the hardware is nice. The A8 weighs ALOT.. a good 5 pounds i would guess. The records are a bit thinner than SSL's.

Setup took a while so I didnt get to play with it more than 10 minutes. It crashed the first time it started up so what does that tell you right off the bat. Record responsiveness didnt seem as good as SSL but that was just my initial impression. When I set my latency to 1.5 ms, my cpu was at around 70%. My cpu runs much lower on SSL.

Since the effects are an effects send, they are a bitch to setup and will require additional cabling that i will have to buy.

Anyway, Im going to read the manual now and start from scratch tonight and use it all weekend. Ill record some samples if someone doesnt beat me to it first. Later.

Hahahaha. That's craaaaazy.

I agree, I like the Audio 8. It's solid, but it doesn't weigh 5 pounds. It's 825 grams. That's ~1.82 pounds. But it feels definitely heavier than the SL1 by at least 2-3x.

I'm working on my Traktor Scratch review also. I should have it done sometime next week. If there is anything specific you guys want me to do or test let me know and I'll try to get it in.

^^^ .... test how well it acts as a paper weight ... I mainly use legal and A4 sizes of paper .... LOL.

wow its only 2 pounds? Sorry for that then.. it fealt much heavier than that.

"Squeal like a pig!"

What about the TS sound quality ? Does it sounds like my old vynils ?

Serato is quite "okay" for that but it don't do anything to improve digital music quality. There's still not enough basses and too much high frequencies (try to play with your EQ), even on my better WAV files.

Good preamp on SL1 (or Audio 8) might solve this ?

^ SL1 just has a pass-through feature and you use you mixer pre-amp. Probably has less to do with serato and more to do with the quality of your recordings.

Although Serato does seem a little quiet - needs more headroom in the internal gains.

I forgot to add that I did that video showing TS handling low frequency feedback...

media.libsyn.com

i want to see some scratch video with traktor

+1

Watchyoutube.com

Hm, I thought you meant traktor supporting video scratching ;)

You don't wanna see ME scratch, though. I suck completely.

some thoughts from tonight...

Well right off the bat im noticing a decent difference in actual sound quality/characteristics.

Serato has more of a punchy sound with alot of midrange.
TS has more of a hi-fi rounded sound with less/softer mids. It also seems to have much louder overall output. The softer mids is taking a while to get used to. Its making beatmatching a tad more difficult because some of the punch isnt coming through.

Some slow movements sound better, or have more continuance before digital breakup than serato, but it doesnt seem to pickup all the slow movements like serato does. Also it seems i have to use more force on the platter to slow a record down in TS than SSL. I usually have my response in SSL set to -60 because I like to make slight platter adjustments.

Also,I hooked up serato with the new TS cables, they actually dont work all that well becauce they have to strech around the unit to reach the phono inputs. A8 has the inputs and outputs on the same side, whereas on the SL1 has them on opposing sides.

Which system in your opinion sounds most like the original record (or CD)?



Sounds like proof of what I've said several times before:

"Past performance predicts future results".

So, which one sounds better to you?

Well, I've been using them live with Serato for nearly 3 mths now, and while admittedly they're designed specifically for the A8DJ unit (and won't be sold to non-NI registered users), they do work, and work fine - and you can finally disconnect your SSL box / swap computers without interrupting the sound.

Well the thing is by doing that your putting some pressure on the rca's to bend that way and i dont know if that is good for them in the long run.. i dont know if id permenantly do that myself.

As far as the sound, I think its going to come down to personal preference . Ill have to speand alot more time on it before I decide for myself. As of right now I do preffer the SSL sound but I need to spin on TS alot more to really decide.

..Im definitely interested to hear what the others who have SSL and TS think about the sound comparrison...

Some how that makes perfect sense

I don't think it was ever a secret. Electro was my "gateway drug" to DJing, but I've been EDM ever since I discovered Kraftwork and Can.

Kraftwerk.

Germans are anal about their names ;)

Right you are. My bad.

Alright, enough bumping of an alternate product on your forums. I'm going to stop monitoring this thread and leave you all to it. If you want me to run any additional tests with TS, please let me know at admin@nem0nic.com and I'll add the results to the review on my webpage.

I think it's a lot simpler than that...it should just be a matter of faithfully reproducing the source material, hence my earlier question "Which system in your opinion sounds most like the original record (or CD)?".

I don't think an audio interface should be "coloring" the sound, there's plenty of processing gear available for that. From what you've written, it sounds like NI's new interface may be dipping the midrange or boosting the extremes.

Well the thing is I dont have any source material to go by.. If you can tell me a good way to test with beatport files then i will do my best.

A couple other comments.. The vinyl stays beatmatched better than serato vinyl. Also, it doesnt make a high pitched time code hum like serato. The signal seems pretty silent to the human ear (thats smart). But Ive had another crash and to be honest Im getting tired of the interface. I preffer seratos. The effects are nice but there is no real efficiant way to use them IMO since they are only send/return... kinda defeats the purpose of the special cabling.

you said :The vinyl stays beatmatched better than serato vinyl.???
thats only up to your tables, isn´t it?

A good quick/simple test would be to burn some of the Beatport stuff to CD's, then run the CD tracks in sync with the same track playing out of the NI interface. Carefully level-match, then A-B between them. This is of course assuming you have a CD player of decent quality available.

All these crashes you're talking about seems to indicate that NI still "ships beta". No surprises there, but you'd think the rapid rise of Serato would have taught them a lesson or two about the overriding need for stability (and good tech support).

that would just show whether your turntables are pitches correctly or not. remember when you play in absolute mode, every little point of the control vinyl is determined so that there cant be any dismatch.

Just so you guys know, I have Torq, Serato and Traktor Scratch in for testing and Virtual Vinyl should be in this week. Check the homepage - www.skratchworx.com

I've never been a huge fan of DJing with a computer and have steered clear of all of these solutions for a long time so I'm likely to be quite critical. Now I'll have all the major solutions in for a test, though sadly not Mixvibes as I'm on a Mac.

And for the record, I have no preference whatsoever so objectivity is guaranteed. In my short play so far, I've made some interesting discoveries. More in about a month's time.

Gizmo - always working hard for the scratch fanatics of the world. This should be an informative shoot-out. I think the Skratchworx reviews are the most objective and the most thorough that you will find in regards to DJ gear.

Damn...we have to wait a month?!?

I will wait to years. ... SSL is all I need.

Wow... Typo... ^^"I will wait two years"

Like I've said before, you can have the "spend a couple of days, list the features, paraphrase the manual, probably get it wrong" version or wait for the "eat sleep and breathe, breakout a screwdriver and anally report" skratchworx stylee. And I still have to earn a living as well.

Right, so my TS packaged finally arrived! :)

A few first impressions:

Hardware
* Looks pretty solid.
* Made in China... uhm.. ok.. not nice.
* Multicore cables: I agree with Konix, its more of a mess for me personally.
* Multicore cables: why didn't they make one complete set, instead of two cables for each deck?
* Multicore cables: essentially they are (passive) y-cables inside, so expect some signal degradation.

Software

Installation

Ugh. It took me almost an hour to setup everything.

* First I tried to register on the website, entered my S/N, nothing happend. Thought maybe it is because I was using firefox, tried again with IE, same result, S/N entered nothing happened. No error message - nothing. Well, I assume they forces the user to install the maintanence center (handles authorization of the software) and connect my laptop to the internet to authorize, not nice and an unnecessary hassle. (C'mon, the TS hardware is already a dongle! What would someone do with a pirated TS software copy?) Started the maintenance center - things work out. It says I have a fully registered version, but when I click on details it says my s/n is not valid, things that make you go hmmmm. However it seems to be fully working

* Started TS, took me another 20 minutes to get the stuff working, cause you have to choose the current input devices manually, seems to choose your onboard soundcard as the default device. Eh... makes no sense to me at all! Then I was irritated by the number of input sources selectable, I could use the SL1/TTM57/M-Audio, then a Audio 8 1/2, Audio 8 3/4, Audio 8 5/6, Audio 8 7/8, which was confusing and I simply didnt see there awas also a separate just "Audio 8" entry. As said, 20 minutes after checking my setup, wiring etc, I found it, (and also got rid of the enormous ground loop noise on the Audio 8 output).

* "Optional Ground (Loop) Lift": Why the hell does the freaking manual (btw, it is poorly translated into German, this needs some work!) state that I have to buy DI-box to get rid of the groundloop? On the forums I found someone mentioned an additional tool to "setup" the Audio 8 card, there you should be able to 'force' to lift the ground. I started the application (which is not installed by default, and only available on the CD...why?) but couldnt change the settings, might be my fault.

Vinyl Movement/Scratching

* Scratching sounds very natural, even better than in Final Scratch, which was quite ok as well, I couldn't spot much of a difference compared to SSL, which comes very close to vinyl.

* latency is 20ms at its best setting. I am using the methodoligy outlined in the SSL-user-wiki, which I think is better to display the real-life latency. It basicaly induces a change of direction of the timecode into the soundcard and determines how long it takes until this change of direction is reflected on the output signal (rather than using the 'needle-drop' latency, please search the forum for further discussion on this topic)

* Scratchin with keylock sounds not so good, there are 'double' hits etc. This is a sample scratching where I switch every 5 seconds the k/l on/off
a. with TS scratchlive.scratchtools.de <- click,
b. with SSL scratchlive.scratchtools.de <-click.

* 2kHz control signal indeed sounds less annoying when transmitted from the needle (but everyone has its own 'annoyance'-scale) - but this is not very relevant to me - esp. since I have little time to use SSL at home, I use it mostly in clubs, and if can hear the timecode/control in the club, well then most likely you have a much bigger issue - the volume of your speakers in the club is not high enough ;)

* 2kHz timecode was supposed to improve tracking esp. at very slow movements. I recorded various slowdowns, and there is not much of a difference. There are sometimes at veeeery slow speeds crackles with SSL, while with TS there is none, but I think this has to do with the rumble filter of TS rather than the 2kHz timecode, TS seems to be less sensitive to rumble from the TTs.
I recorded a sample, started with slowdown of SSL, then switched to TS etc. scratchlive.scratchtools.de <- click

* Relative Mode in TS suffers from sticker drift, this is an absolute showstopper for me. I havent used relative mode in SSL for a loooong time b/c it had the same problem, now that it is fixed I use it 99% while spinning. A problem which both system suffer in relative mode is fast cueing - both system seem to loose tracking and it only cues slow after reaching a certain speed.

---

So this is the technical stuff I can comment on and which I find is the most important stuff. A lot of the other stuff is very subjective (GUI style etc.) so it makes no sense to compare it for me, no way to do it in an objective way. Feature wise - each user has to decide which system covers the function which he needs.

SSL version used: 1.7.2 PB2
TS version used: 1.0.0.030

I am assuming that this is because of the whole "Traktor Scratch Certified Mixer" thing. If you have any of those mixers you don't need to use the interface. I guess they are thinking it will slow down the bootleggers.



As much as I hate to say it, I like the scratching in Traktor a little bit better.



SSL sometimes suffers from digital artifacts. I have had it happen about 50 - 60% of the time if you turn off the power and then break down then beat and let go you will hear the signal break up digitally.



One thing I do like is the Fullscreen option. The laptop I am using it on has a very high resolution that can not be resized without making the screen look like crap. There is an option in Traktor that let's you set the resolution at 1024 x 768. I hated using my old laptop with Serato because the text was so damn small in it.

FYI...I am not leaving SSL. Just seeing what else is out there.

Sorry I was bit unclear with my statement. What I meant was it makes no sense to ask for an authorization if the Audio 8, TS-hardware, is connected. Thats unnecessary I think. They could easily ask for authorization only when certified TS Mixers are connected.

I hate the GUI of TS! Too messy for my taste! However I'm sure that TS have some features that SSL should look at.

Personally I think that SSL should:
1) SSL should handle power downs better
2) Resizable GUI and the ability to turn of certain GUI elements
3) The rest is coming if the rumors are true :-P (MIDI, automatic loops, FX for the SL1?, sampler?, VIDEO!)

I'm not going anywhere...SSL is still the king ;-)

Was this using your Mac or PC? Also, what sampling rate were you using (44,48,96). Do you have any graphs?

* 44.1kHz
* PC
* graphs in terms of pic's from the recorded waveforms where you can read the latency, I can provide them. Maybe you can PM me, so we can cross compare the resultst.

BTW, this was just a first impression and some quick rough tests. I can't guaruantee that all/any of the given numbers are correct. First impression. Once I have final/detailed results I will write them to the ssl-wiki and post a link here of course.

The only thing I have to say is I have bought Traktor Scratch
3 days before and hopefully I didn't sell my Serato yet....
...On monday I will give the traktor scratch back to the company.
Didn't satisfied my expectations of stability and vesatility.
minimum stress maximum funny.

I'm an technology addict but not a beta tester

lol @ minimum stress maximum funny. hahaha

Did he jump ship yet and does he still have the box. I want the box

+1

But I'm still not going anywhere

Wait, why would someone put SSL in water anyway?

i think it was yesterday one of the tech freaks out here on the forums got traktor scratch and he said it sucked, and he called it "CABLETON". :P SSL FO LIFE

i want the box too...its much easy to ship it here..im here in shanghai..hehehehehehehe

massiv: how much is the box?

Konix.. there is just a little noise and nothing else. Are you sure this is the correct file and the problem is similar to SSL's scratching-with-low-frequency-roducing-noise?

I took the file down cause I was having problems with my server. So if you just downloaded it you will get a nothing file. So I will re-record it. But yeah, it's bad, if not worse than SSL.

Hm, no I actually got the tip archive and it seems to be not corrupt. Hm... Thanks for re-recording.

Damned, I think it's my fault and the file is okay. The spec analyzer didn't show anyting so I was confused, I have deleted the file. If you still have it, maybe you could just re-upload it insted of recording it again.

Coming soon???

All the hype of different DVS out to include Serato all have problems serato still hasnt fixed the sound quality bugs it has...in the end its the sound quality that the crowd hears that will set all the different units apart. Serato to me until they fix that the biggest advantage in Serato's corner is that its more user friendly...from what I can see of Traktor it looks generic but they are using lower Hertz to ensure the sound quality stays sharp all the way to zero stop of the turntable but I still have to research it more at this point...All I know is my Serato is killing me with this low fluttering sound of the bass notes of my music right now.

are you using key lock?

that's gotta be what he's talking about...

it's serato's biggest flaw, and they are seemingly just ignoring it (i've raised this issue a few times on this forum, and called them personally about it)...

sounds like there's an lfo on your basslines. can't record a mix like that... sounds like complete crap.

Thats a good question I never turned on the key lock to begin with, I will have to check once I get off from work...at this point I have tried installing it on my wife's computer just to see if it's my pc that doing it and I played a few songs on her computer and its the same thing ..its like a very thumping sound clipping in and out in the song its real noticable with songs with long bass notes like the new T-Pain "Can't Believe"

Thats a good question I never turned on the key lock to begin with, I will have to check once I get off from work...at this point I have tried installing it on my wife's computer just to see if it's my pc that doing it and I played a few songs on her computer and its the same thing ..its like a very thumping sound clipping in and out in the song its real noticable with songs with long bass notes like the new T-Pain "Can't Believe" my first thought was maybe the file came from the digital music pool all crappy but when I play the song in windows media player they sound fine just when it goes through serato I am getting that low clipping thump in the songs.

To add to what Proto J is talking about yeah when recording mix cd's yeah it sounds like crap ...I can tell it's just not me when I listen to the mix show on the radio I can hear it in the music while the dj is doing a mix show on the radio and we are talking about the 1.8.1 update that serato claimed they fixed

+1 on the crap.

I turned the key locked off and that seemed to help a hell of alot it seems to just do it if you take the songs off of zero pitch around 3 to 4% it may do it once or twice versus continuous as it was doing before thanks guys now I'm ready for my friday nights as scheduled

Never used a keylock for me it's a waste of feature, they should replace it with pitch n time.

yeah, it will chop up the low frequencies on any track, some are worse than others, but i've heard it do it to a wav. file too...

it's the quality of the algorithm serato's using.

it's worse than the pioneer cdj's (1000 and 800), and they're bad (ironically numark's cd-x player has an excellent master tempo/key lock algorithm, you got to stray very far from 0 to hear it start chopping up low frequencies)...

if i found out traktor has a better master tempo algorithm i'll likely jump ship... i don't want to though, i love serato, i just wish they'd fix this, they've slept on it for over a year now (i've brought it up to them since they implemented key lock).

i use master tempo/key lock all the time so this is crucial to me.

If you really think about it. Key Lock is meant for acapellas. I don't know why so many knuckleheads use it for regular songs. It's just a lazy way of mixing IMO

Keep in mind... Serato's implementation does not have to deal with timing issues and double hihats etc. Most of the other algorithms have this issue.

hmm....I leave key lock on all the time. in fact, i never turn in off, ever, (I'm NOT a lazy DJ. I'm just not a fan of Alvin and the Chipmunks). I've never noticed any degradation in sound quality. I've recorded tons of mixes and blasted them in my car (i've got a JL Audio 12W7 with 1100 watts running to it, so I'd be able to hear if there was clipping in the low end such as 337 was speaking of) and never had any problems.

It's not clipping it's choppy bass. Not to insult your JL Audios with 1100 watts, but it doesn't compare to a high end club system. Do the test for yourself. Put on a track with heavy sustained bass and put your pitch at +4 or -4 and you should hear the choppiness in the low frequencies.

I guess it also depends on how well tuned your hearing is also. I can hear the same choppiness on the CDJ's, it's not as bad but I still hear it. I'm just an audiophile geek...lol

There is an very obvious degradation. Really. And I am not an audiophile geek!

I don't understand why keylock has to do with a lazy way of mixing. lol I don't think they're related to each other.

Btw, the degradation in sound occurs with extended bass and when they keylock is used at +or-4.... The higher or lower you go, the more you will notice it.

I think lazy in terms of tracks which are usually too far away to be mixed without chipmonking it... those tracks can suddenly be used. You don't have to think about an alternative .. just mix anything with almost everything.

Kind of...

lol @ chipmonking it. :)


Yeah. I think I get it now.

It does, at least on it's best setting (there's 3 different key lock settings in Traktor/TS). But requires much more RAM and CPU.

Adios?

yeah, that's kinda what I mean...lol

i've heard it do it to tracks (high quality 320kbps) if you move the pitch away from 0 at all, not even +/-1 (and get much worse the further you stray obviously)...

it just completely slays some tracks way more than others, and i don't understand why (most of the time it's tracks w/ lenghty bass tones, but i've heard it slay an ltj bukem tune w/ short lil' 808 hits too)...

i'd have to check it out for myself...

i'll try to see about getting a demo of it at sam ash/guitar center, or find someone who has it locally...

if serato doesn't fix it anytime soon i'll likely keep using my current serato box for gigs (where i don't mind it choppin' that much, it's recording mixes that i'm really concerned about), and buy traktor for the studio...

I agree it's pretty damn annoying. I used to not be able to hear it, but if you take any time to listen on a decent system or pair of headphones you can notice it at as little as +/-1. It's probably cuz they had to purposely make one that's not as good as Pitch N Time.

I don't like turning keylock off for recording mixes, because when you skip ahead in a mix on the same song, anyone can notice the pitch change. I know that's how it used to be back in the day, (even though it was harder to simply skip ahead without fast forwarding) but this is the modern age with even CD players having decent key lock.

The key lock issue caught me off gaurd one being I didnt know it was on...when they added the feature a few updates back I never paid any attention to it...but even then I was racking my brain trying to figure out what was going on I started reviewing changing my file formatt thinking that would help, all the way to trying out serato on a different pc to see was it my pc causing the problem. Traktor best quality that impresses me it the pure vynl sound even with the record is at a dead stop serato if you leave the needle on the record and just nudge the platter not really causing it to spin you will hear it digitize trying to locate the time code or when you do a power down back spin it will not do a complete power down drag it will drop off at a certain point versus Traktor...so to me if serato improves its time code read range and match the groove size to that of a standard 12inch record and using lower hertz and traktor and lets not forget fix that key lock bug serato will remain on top ..like I mentioned before serato is more user friendly in my opion, no go to subscreens.

The key lock issue caught me off gaurd one being I didnt know it was on...when they added the feature a few updates back I never paid any attention to it...but even then I was racking my brain trying to figure out what was going on I started reviewing changing my file formatt thinking that would help, all the way to trying out serato on a different pc to see was it my pc causing the problem. Traktor best quality that impresses me it the pure vynl sound even with the record is at a dead stop serato if you leave the needle on the record and just nudge the platter not really causing it to spin you will hear it digitize trying to locate the time code or when you do a power down back spin it will not do a complete power down drag it will drop off at a certain point versus Traktor...so to me if serato improves its time code read range and match the groove size to that of a standard 12inch record and using lower hertz and traktor and lets not forget fix that key lock bug serato will remain on top ..like I mentioned before serato is more user friendly in my opion, no go to subscreens. Maybe down the line serato is working to improve the sound range of the time codes, as we all know no one likes to be out done.

my question is, when you spun on regular wax, did you have keylock? nope. shutit off and perform like you did before you had serato....

I look at serato as just a way to play music without having to buy records, If you use it as a true vinyl emulation, it sounds fine....when you try to use all the bells and whistles, it gets choppy...

in my opinion, if you want bells and whistles, why not play cd's and use cdj's, key lock on those in second to none.....

It's almost been a year since I've begun using Serato...at the time I was building my library using serato and still using vynl until I completely caught my music library on my computer up to par to the point I didnt have to reach in my crates anymore in between that time serato did all those updates and added feature that I was aware of since I never really read all of what it could do I have been pretty much learning it on the fly as I went. The key gaurd thing was one of those automatic defaults that was engage in the new updates I personaly never used it intentionally now that I know its there I'm making sure it stays off...other then that I use it the same as I play real vynl...key gaurd is a waste of time to me...with years of mixing under my belt I really dont care for a key gaurd feature...the only thing when I was getting the poor sound was folks that I know stilling spinning vynl were all talking noise about how horrible it sounded and I made a mistake switching to a computer and serato.

A better key-lock would be nice. Not absolutely necessary for basic performance purposes, but certainly nice.

I'd be fair willing to be a lot of us menfolk have occasionally said no, based on how the box looked.


:D

actually key lock on most cdj's sucks too...

we expect more out of serato/rane, that's all.

and by your logic nothing would ever innovate in dj-ing, and we'd all be still tryin' to skratch without a crossfader curve (there was a backlash to that too at first in the mid 90's... and it's like if there was a slight bug in the way new fader technology performed you'd probaly be saying "when you spun with the regular mixers, did it have a crossfader curve? nope, throw it out the window and skratch like you did on your old piece of crap gemini with no curve")... when in reality, skratching without a sharper curve just doesn't sound as clean, and there's sounds you just simply cannot achieve...

if a cool feature that allows new possibilities is available to us, why not use it, and want it to perform better (when we know it can, it's just down to serato making it so)?...

^^ Right, but the way i look at it is, I can scratch on a mixer with NO cross fader. thats what makes a versatile DJ, if you get used too, and expect all kinds of crazy features, you get stuck when your equipment isnt "perfectly setup"

thats all im sayin

well yeah, but you can certainly skratch better with a crossfader with a sharp curve... most artists will go to great lengths to make sure their equipment is set up right, because they want to perform the best they can, then if they screw up it's really their fault, not the equipment's... ltj bukem's technical rider is so thorough, i've never encountered another dj so concerned with his set up, he had mc conrad calling me days b4 the event to make sure shit was right when i brought 'em here... that's why he's also the tightest beatmatcher i've ever heard...

sure, you should still be able to rock it on oldschool shit, but why not use the best method, and explore the possibilities of new technology, if it's available to you, that's all i'm sayin'...

i can skratch on old faders (old alps, still a curve, but not very sharp) and still sound fine, but i sound way cleaner on a newer fader w/ a super sharp curve, and i prefer that (unfortunately most club's mixers don't have it though)... i can mix w/ no moniter if i had to (i know i won't sound as clean though), doesn't mean i should have to b/c some soundguy thinks i'm being picky (just b/c there's a speaker within 10 feet of me, facing the crowd, LOL)...

all i'm really tryin' to say is key lock is a feature serato implemented that makes some great new options available to us (no chipmonks if we wanna put a clever mix together), but it's got flaws and there's nothing wrong w/ us wanting them to iron them out, nothing at all...

youre right.

Traktor Scratch is a sub standard, bloated, clumsy, badly designed, unstable, poorly supported, un-ergonomic, over-hyped piece of kit that has a poor online community and is prone to audio 8 hardware failures. However, it does sound great and has even better marketing. But that is it.

Trust me I know, I bought it, I used, I swore at it, I sold it.

Its shit, and is NOT a professional app. To have people like Ritchie Hawtin endorsing it is an absolute crime, and is only leading to confusion in the market. If Serato could only match the sound quality and perhaps have some basic filters, Traktor Scratch would not of been made.

DO NOT BE DUPED BY THE NI MARKETTING.

LOL, seems to be the motto of every Final Scratch/Traktor Scratch user that uses Serato.

I loooove recording in TS.

wow...finally someone that bought Traktor scratch and operated besides the celeberty dj's that give an honest opion of what they thought of it in comparison to serato.

Serato Audio Research = Quality, stability, proven technology

I find it really funny when you have company's like Serato/Rane bring out a really cool product that changes a Dj's way of mixing music. And at the same time making a good profit from the hard work they do!!! then years later you have NI who have been in the market for almost the same time as Serato has. Then 3 and a bit years later after SL was released they bring out this product which they call Traktor Scratch and boast how great it is and how it's the best DVS on the market and there's no other product like it and it's full of features and the list goes on and on. Purely you can basically see that NI just waited for Serato to release a product like this and study the things that Serato doesn't have/lack of. Serato took a great big risk to bring out SL back in 2004 and remember folks back then you where all mixing with vinyl or cd's or FS from stanton. So I'm quite sure if Serato wanted to create a bit of hype they would release a product that would blow NI out of the water but as like every product that Serato has released and I praise them for it. They always do there Research first. Then release a quality product. I know it's frustrating when you want a feature on Serato that TS has and you constantly bug Serato and bitch about it on this forum but you purely need to understand it's not because Serato doesn't want to release it, It's because they put lot's of R&D into that one feature that makes their product standout and perform better. How do I know all of this...Here in the Land of Aus I use to work for an electronic company whom created full outdoor L.E.D screen I worked with an Electronic engineer where we booth designed the hardware and software that drives these screens. Anyways that's my 2 cents...Have a think about it

(note I'm not defending NI here) Final Scratch 1.2+ and 2 was a joint collaboration between Stanton and NI. NI's Traktor program been around a lot longer than ScrathLIVE. In fact, it's quite the opposite of what you said. It was Serato that waited a while before releasing ScratchLIVE. There's a thread here somewhere explaining they (Serato) had an idea of a timecode vinyl DJ program, but wanted to see how the competition does first, which at the time was Final Scratch 1.X (circa 2001). They instead released Serato Scratch Studio, a plugin for ProTools, which can be thought of as the precursor to ScratchLIVE. Then when they seen how much of an epic failure Final Scratch 1 was, then they released ScratchLIVE in May 2004. A few months later around October 2004, Final Scratch 2 was released, which again was a Stanton/NI colaboration. Final Scratch 2 was another catastrophe (for most) as we all know, and the rest is history from there for ScratchLIVE. So NI is actually on their third attempt. Maybe third time's a charm, or maybe three strikes and your out. We'll see.

Yeah, NI and Stanton were the first to introduce a DVS. It was actually Serato who waited and did it right

Even though NI and Serato aim at the same market, I feel their products cater to different needs.

NI has always been putting stuff out for producers like Battery and their Kore line, and I think TS (with all it's soundcard and MIDI goodness) reflects that. If anything, TS should've marketed their product to the mixtape/producer DJ since it's ideal for that purpose. IMO, competing directly with SSL was just a bad move on their part

I agree 100% with Konix and wakka it probably is a better tool for mixtape dj's but for club applications the last thing I would want to do is mess with a midi controller while in the middle of keeping the crowd amped up.

I disagree.

Why would TS be better for a mixtape DJ?

Recording with the SL1 is a pain

The Audio8 soundcard that's bundled with TS is more versatile since you can easily use it for other sources instead of just for DJing. I've been able to record straight into Ableton Live while using TS. And being able to record in 24-bit/96 doesn't hurt either :)

That doesn't make it a really better mixtape device.

As long as you can't record multiple channels separately at once (post fader preferred) it is not really a better solution for a mixtape DJ, IMHO.

Recording the output of your mixtape can be done with almost any soundcard (even your internal soundcard on your mac at decent quality).

I wouldn't recommend and I know Serato doesn't recommend using Y-cables to record from your mixer to the line-in on your lappy. I know, the world isn't gonna end or anything but it's just not smart or efficient in the long run

So if anything, you'd have to invest in a separate external soundcard whereas in TS you don't. So out of the box, TS has better recording capabilities and thus, more suited for recording mixes than SSL

The 57SL has the potential to really trump its SL1 and TS predecessors if it were to implement multi-channel postfader recording as you seemed to be hinting at, but its just a suggestion for now

SSL + Samson Zoom H4 = win.

Why do you need y-cables to record?



Yes, but it's a bit far fetched if you say TS is good for mixtape DJ's ;) Both are almost equally not designed for mixtape DJ's.



Well, I connect my SL1 to the 57SL and I am able to record then muliti-channel postfader! :)

Hi everyone,i just wanna give my opinion on traktor scratch.
I bought traktor scratch 18 months ago after much debaiting on whether to choose this product or serato.Not having the money just to buy both.
I ran it on a pc desktop 1.5 of ram,pentium 4 processor,not the fastest of machines but well over the spec required for traktor to run smoothly or so i thought.
I've had nothing but problems with it ,i.e pops,crackles,visual shakes.bla bla.
I've done pratically everything to try and eliminate these screw ups but to no avail.
So what does silly bollocks go and do....I go and buy and all singing all dancing macbook pro thinking this would solve all my problems,jeez how wrong was i..still i have stability problems..tried all the usual changes to settings in traktor and on the macbook and still no.and to add insult to injury the sync bar has been totally removed from the screen.i do prefer not to use the turntables as i think its just easier,now its just totally impossible to use this software,i'm really so upset about this having forked out 400 pounds for traktor.i've never used serato but i'm on the verge of fucking traktor off and buying serato.
So all in all even though i love traktor cause of the different effects and other awesome features on it..it has to go.R.I.P traktor.

P.S do not jump ship.you will be very disappointed.

Traktor Scratch! Blowing blah blah blah