i was feeling some of that new album

I'll check it out after work.

I didn't know they had a new album. I like the off-beat flow on "Let's get this party started". It sounds very raw though. What's the name of their new album?

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh noooooooooooooo!

its called Ultramagnetic MC's "The Best Kept Secret"

not to be confused with diamond (d)

i liked it but to me kool keith never totally came back to be kool keith and sometimes still sounds like an alter ego, but overall its just good to hear old school guys still rockin'

Those two videos and songs were total trash. The thing that made Critical Beatdown so good back in the day was how fresh it sounded--it was like a mind-fuck. Keith's lyrics were way better back then especially compared to the shit he dropped on those two tracks above. And Ced Gee sounded like garbage (not that he was great in '88).

I think it's only good to hear old school guys rockin' if they're coming with something worthwhile, otherwise it sounds embarassingly painful.

Final call on these tracks: regretfully un-innovative and highly forgettable.

Bring back Big Daddy Kane!!!

He was possibly my fave back then, but he should only come back if he isn't droppin bullshit like those two songs above.

I think I heard of him doing some tracks with someone recently but I can't remember who...

It was that Afro Samurai joint with RZA. He still got it.

garbage (period)... The video was kinda funny tho... Typical Kool Keith shit, mockin the mainstream. For as talented as an MC Kool Keith is/ was, he sure has a lousy ear when it comes to pickin beats.

Yeah, I wonder if Ced Gee produced these tracks... If so, dude has fallen OFF.

I kind of saw the whole Sex Style thing coming through on the videos, but I don't know...the tracks and the rhymes were shit, so the video tanked in my mind too.

Ok but i'd still rather hear that ultra garbage then most of the current requested radio garbage.

I still liked dr doom better than dr octagon, maybe I need to listen to it again, I just really didnt like that album. Speaking of dan the automater, I LOVED Deltron 3030, that is my shit!!!

For me, garbage is garbage--I'd rather listen to something more quality or silence.

LolOl!

I was just about to mention him...

Big L
Marley Marl compilation (SUPER DOPE!)
Nas or Kanyee-ze-kin-e-zee?

I would love to see Stesasonic get back together. I think this might have been the first bit hip hop band.

+ newer UGK

The beat for "Rapper's Delight" was a re-played version of Chic, therefore, NOT a sample. Does that constitute a band?

Good question; that's kind of tough to say. There were a number of hip-hop house bands back then but they were usually just replaying DJ mixes which often times (as in the case of "Rapper's Delight") essentially sounded like disco. The house bands were never marketed as a hip-hop band per se; Stetsa, on the other hand, were. Sometimes the most important part of saying you're any given thing is proclaiming yourself to be that thing.

Yo, I just listened to them tracks again......I, I, kinda like them joints.

*Duck flying pan*

For real, I played them on a system and the beats are banging. Maybe because I was drunk, but still.... Just loop the beat at the end, that shit is hot.

Oh yeah, that Yoo Hoo and Cognac is my new drink.

Wait! Fatback Band actually came out with a Hip-Hop record before "Rapper's Delight". They were definitely a band.

There are plenty of Hip-Hop records that came out before "Rapper's Delight", but on smaller labels.

Well, Fatback were an established funk band when they released that shit with King Tim III--that track (a b-side) was more of a novelty for them than anything else.



Like what? (other than "Personality Jock")

I don't know...maybe I have to hear it on a club system or something... Those joints just had huge yawn factor for me.



Yeah, I think that was the only line I caught that I thought was funny.

Who cares if it was a "novelty"! Sugar Hill Gang were a "novelty"!

They were just a "studio" group, put together by Sylvia Rhone! Plus, they stole their lyrics from Cold Crush.



Like what? (other than "Personality Jock")

I'm not the expert, here. I know of an ex-employee of Earwax, here in Atl, that collected pre-Sugar Hill Gang Hip-Hop. I think I've seen other references--forgot.

No, my point was that it was a b-side for a funk band, a one-off. Fatback with King Tim III had no subsequent hip-hop career to speak of. Calling it the first hip-hop record is arguable in my opinion.

Yes, Sugar Hill ripped of Caz's lyrics (and yes, they were manufactured by Sylvia ROBINSON) but don't get it twisted, they weren't a novelty--they actually had a career in hip-hop after "Rapper's Delight."





I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but I genuinely would be interested to know--I was under the impression that there are only the two songs we've mentioned here.

Call Earwax Records in Atl: 404.875.5600 . Ask if "Boogie" is still around. He knows that stuff. "Jasz" might know, too.

the way I see it:

Rappers Delight was the first Hip-Hop record because it came out of the Hip-Hop scene. Cazs original lyrics were set to Breaks, two turntables originally. But when the record was recorded they brought in the studio musicians, no one imagined bringing in a DJ to loop the Chic record.

The real REAL, Hip-Hop came with the drum machines, and better yet the samplers that could loop.

Looping is automatic, what back to back is manually.

King Tim was earlier rap on record, I think it gets called the first because it was over Disco/ Funk. Rap was always put in the Disco/ Funk category early on. But there where lots of other raps on records like Pigmeat Markham "Here comes the Judge". There were other Blues, Caribbean, and Country records that had Rap on it. Back then Rap was more of a certain poetic flow that came from the street. A certain form of street poetry, structured a certain way that was called Rap.

But as far as Hip-Hop, Sugar Hill was sort of an offshoot leading away from the true form using a band. Extremely important because it was the first records. Then we get Bam MCing over the drum machines, what he learned from Kraftwork. Then the real REAL form when DJ Marly Marl looped samples.

This is the true Hip-Hop form, Breaks and Rhymes. The breaks, manually on turntables, or automatically on the sampler, and the MC rapping, old style flows, or whatever new form that grew from there.

so anyway there where lots of raps on records, Last Poets, Hustlers Convention, etc. But I wouldnt call it Hip-Hop.

NO!

"King Tim" was accepted as a Hip-Hop record.

Also, I wasn't talking about "raps on records." I mean actual Hip-Hop records on indie labels before Sugar Hill Gang.

Akiem: you know Boogie, I'm sure. He told me he collected pre-Sugar Hill Gang records. Other collectors have told me about them, too.

I need to find some, now.

Also, there was looping on records before sampling. An example is "Peter Piper".

Actually, "Peter Piper" was post-drum machine sampling, but still a DJ controlled set of loops and over-dubs.

Early Treacherous 3 and Grandmaster Flash had sampling and analog keyboards--depends on song. What about "Apache" for instance? Not all of the early Sugar Hill Gang was re-played.

Why is King Tim on Fatback Hip-Hop, but Pigmeat Markham "Here Comes the Judge" not Hip-Hop???

Yes scratching or mixing in records over drum machines came after Sugar Hill


To me Sugar Hill was a direct link to Hip-Hop, even if each track was not re-played, the breaks were the source.

I dont really have a problem calling Sugar Hill "Hip-Hop-inspired." Meaning the real wasnt till the DJ was on the set. (actualy I prefer that theory)


and there were all types of tape looping type shits going on before Hip-Hop too, but I wouldnt call that stuff Hip-Hop, just because they were looping


same as I would call anyone who rapped on a record Hip-Hop

aint seen Boogie for eeeeveeeeerrrr

"back to back breaks" is the Original Source

"bands playing shit" is emulating the original source (I dont care if they made up there own shit)

"drum machines" is emulating the original source (but closer to the truth because the DJ did it)

"sampling loops" is a digital, precise, and automatic way of doing the Original Source (even if there was tape loops)


MCing, rocking the party is the Original Source.
The method employed is Rap.
MCs can rhyme to anything, but that doesnt make it Hip-Hop.
Even Dolly Parton got a "rap record", that dont make it Hip-Hop

Its Hip-Hop when the DJ is the foundation. The DJ plays, or loops records.

In truth is I see Marly as the one who invented the true Hip-Hop record. Plenty of "rap" records before him true, and each of them closer and closer to the true form (ever since the Rappers Delight offshoot). It just so happened that Marly was there when the technology caught up to the culture. The pure foundation of the culture is the two copies back to back creating the loop, the perfect foundation for the MC to rap on. There is nothing better then a the perfect loop to rhyme on.

... "The Birritsky Rap"?




With all due respect to you and Marley, The above statement makes no sense to me.

no doubt, its far from an easy argument to make, but I stand buy it. actually it sounds crazy, but I stll stand by it.

anything before Marley made a loop was not the true form. the true form is the loop. everything just built to that point. the digital version of the back to back break, that didnt make it to record to often and usually paying respect to the original form.

I speaking dogma so.......

I think this is a time we need The 45 King to help us out.

well I dont expect anyone to agree with me

I gotta disagree with that one. For me, the first "real" hip-hop record was "The Adventures of Grandmaster Flash on the Wheels of Steel." There's no rapping, but fcuk it, I don't care--that's the realness in full effect. "No overdubs, no punches" to quote Flash himself.

I wrote a history of sampling and I listed "Rapper's Delight" as the first hip-hop record (with a nod to "King Tim III (Personality Jock)"), but for me, it all started (on record, that is) with "...The Wheels of Steel." No disrespect to the man Marley Marl, but Flash was there first in my opinion.

yes absolutely "The Adventures of Grandmaster Flash on the Wheels of Steel" is the true essence of Hip-Hop music, A DJ cutting, scratching looping breaks. But where did this go as a record making formula? How many of these type records could you name? Under a dozen? A handful of "mastermixes", Run-DMC "Here we go", Jazzy Jeff "Live at Union Square", Kane "On the Bug Tip", what else?

The way I see it:

1] Two Turntables on the Breaks: The true essence, the original form of true Hip-Hop music.

2b] The Studio Band: Emulating and displacing the DJ in order to make records, and song formulas. folds into 2a

2a]Drum Machines & Synthesizers: Return of the one man band, the Hip-Hop producer. Digital Technology.

3]The Digital Sampler The marriage of The Break and Digital Technology.

to me, Hip-Hop production in its purist form is the Drum Loop. Back to Back on the tables with two copies of the same break is the original first form. But the digital drum loop is perfection of the science. Bands and drum machines were the road to that perfection. Knowledge is the Break, Wisdom is instruments and drum machines, and Understanding is the Drum Loop.

yes this is dogma, I dont expect people to agree, but it fallows a logic

and just to bring it back

Back in about 98 when Ced-Gee told me his new album has "no samples" on it, I felt kinda disappointed and shitty for a while.

Yeah, I still cringe a little when people brag about "not having samples," or that "sampling is unoriginal".

yeah I still remember, we were eating at Duggans on Ponce when he said it. At first I thought he was joking. I felt strange for days after. I mean cmon Critical Beatdown, need more be said?

I've never eaten there. yeah, while the blending of the loops on the older Ultra stuff was a little rough, as much Hip-Hop of that time, the samples were ultra-fly.

Funky, the 12" record version was the dopest to me followed by Ego Trippin'...

Yeah, you're right. That was some solid knowledge, AKIEM. Respect.

As far as record production goes, you're totally right--the sampler was (and still is, IMO) it. I had a big section in the history I wrote on Marley Marl's innovations with the sampler, but I won't drool over them here.

However I think what I said before about "the Wheels of Steel" still holds true, but only in a performance context, and when that song came out, hip-hop was making big changes in its existence as a recorded medium. Again, AKIEM, you're right about the marriage of the break to digital technology. In some ways I see the turntable as an analog, performance-based sampler. For me (and I suspect you'd agree with me, AKIEM?) the ultimate hip-hop compositional tool is the sampler and the ultimate performance tool is the turntable.

Interestingly enough, I think we've just now gotten to the point where hip-hop performance can get back to its roots on the turntables, but still utilize the benefits of digital technology with innovations like Serato. Unfortunately most live hip-hop gigs I've seen don't have a DJ on the decks--it's usually a DAT or if you're lucky someone live on an MPC. (Or the WORST: a DJ on the decks in the back doing nothing, looking like a foolish token nod to "Da Old Skool," while a DAT or even CD plays in the background.) I'd really like it if producers/DJs would take live hip-hop performance to that next level with a nice integration of turntables and samplers; bring it back to an MC (or two) on stage with a DJ/producer cutting and triggering live.

As for what the production format/process on "Wheels of Steel" did, you're right--it didn't go very far. It was kind of like a "live (but studio produced) re-creation" of instrumental hip-hop performance. In that respect I think it's somewhat of a precursor for turntablism records, but even then, a lot of the turntablist innovations have come out of live DMC routines and shit, so "Wheels of Steel" probably wasn't that huge of an influence.

That's too bad that Ced was saying that shit about samples. I hate it when MCs/producers brag about not having samples too. I heard Wyclef say it on one song on the Ecleftic and it kind of pissed me off--good sampling is something to be proud of! I really wish hip-hop could get back to really explosive, mind-blowing sampling techniques like Critical Beatdown, or 3 Feet High or Nation of Millions or Paul's Boutique. I mean, I know at this point the law just doesn't allow for that, but...well...that just blows dead elephants, cuz it makes for great art. (Ok, I'm kind of rambling here, but if not here, then where?)

[nerd out]I honestly think that sampling is the most revolutionary/innovative method for composition of any kind of music of the last millenium or so. I've studied a lot of classical music and shit like that and there were some great innovations (even temperament, the canonization of cantus firmi, the implementation of tonal harmony, I could go on), but nothing like sampling. You're not covering someone else's song, or merely doing your own version of it, you're reincarnating the very song itself. You're not putting your best impersonation of James Brown's voice on your song, you're putting James Brown's actual voice on your song. I don't know, I think that is an incredible fusion of tradition and technology.
[/nerd out]

That's enough for now. Before I know it someone's going to start a thread about people like me writing long rambling threads =P

*edit* "long rambling messages =P"

absolutely. manual vs automatic, analog vs digital, performance vs composition, with some overlap of course




exactly the same way the digital sampler removes lots of the limitations that (to me) was holding back the production, SSL does the same for the performance DJ. specifically the problems of medium, or format. If you couldnt press each record you wanted to perform you were stuck with cassette(yuk), then DAT, then CDR (CDJ was almost there for some), sampler, but now full circle, back to the tables.

It sucked being a DJ when the only way to play your record was cassette, yeah you get to scratch the chorus or whatever, but...




I still think it played an important part of making sure the DJ was at the least relevant, if not the backbone. I think thats part of GMF greatest legacies, making shure the DJ wasnt shut out the picture like we are always threatened with. Not really to compare Marley and Flash, just as example, someone was going to loop a break if it wasnt Marley, but what if GMF did not champion the DJ?? Would someone else have?




exactly its the laws, how are you going to afford more than one sample per record? I think its wack how the law shaped our art in that respect. Sometimes Ive been lazy like fuck it, Ill you need is one loop nowadays... word. Im glad its not really like that anymore, I think we progressed past that, weve put more tools in our tool box. But still that really cool tool we just cant use.....




dope how you put it, I agree.
I did a presentation about sampling, fallowing the history in order to argue its artistry. I still got questions from the musicians "but your not playing.." all I could say after that, "a DJ is not pretending to be a band ether right?" and so on.

check for this book. Making Beats by Joe Schloss

"W-W-Worrrrrrrd up."

I read that Schloss book--actually I had to "take it apart" as part of writing my thesis on sampling. It was good, but personally I'm more interested in contemplating the music as opposed to the culture. Obviously I don't have anything against looking at the culture or ethnography in general, and I think he did a good job of doing that, but I'm more interested in looking at the music itself. For my thesis I looked at how Nas' "Get Down" obtained a certain level of meaning by sampling James Brown's "The Boss." Pretty nerdy stuff, but I enjoyed writing it! :)

so can we read it?

my thing is focusing on the music to understand the culture "as it is" rather then how people say it is, or would like it to be.

also I was a graffiti artist before I started DJing so I always try to understand the relationships between various elements.

I think Joe could have got a couple more interviews from people further outside his circle, that would have helped. still really dope, never seen those concepts written before.

Well, I'm trying to get it published at the moment (not holding my breath =P), but probably the easiest way to read it is to PM me :) Be warned--it's about 160 pages and is admittedly kind of dry at some points--it is a thesis after all. But by all means, hit me up on the PM and I'll hook you up if you're interested.