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Where to place subwoofer when using turntables during mobile gigs
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Where to place subwoofer when using turntables during mobile gigs

latinblood2k1 8:42 PM - 29 September, 2009
I own a b-52 matrix 100v2 system. I usually place the sub woofer right underneath my table thinking that the room/hall can receive the necessary amount of bass it needs to fill up the room but have heard that the vibration can make the turntable loose tracking signal on serato.

So far I haven`t DJ`d out with the b-52 since I purchased it like an month ago. I usually leave my bass from my b-52 at 1 o clock and the master volume at 1 o clock. I was testing the volume today and have noticed that my tts are able to put up with a lot of bass. I had to increase the bass up to 9-10 o clock on the sub and 3 o clock on the mixer`s bass knob in order for the track signal to start going in to the reds but I don`t wanna get my hopes up without knowing how it will truly sound once I`m at a gig.

If I end up moving my sub and buy a pair of long XLR`s where is a good angle to put the sub at? I was researching some good tips on how to limit vibration by using a half sliced tennis ball,ashtray w/ rubber band trick etc etc but I also read that if the sub is a bit too close that too wont do the track.

Thanks in advance
SK1 4:58 AM - 30 September, 2009
I've been looking online for a while about sub placement and can't seem to find what I'm looking for. If anyone knows about placing front loaded subs, I'd like to hear your input.

For horn loaded subs I've found all sorts of info on coupling and placing near walls and corners. For front loaded subs, would placing them side by side near a wall achieve the same kind of effect?

...anyone?
DJ Prinvale` 5:02 AM - 30 September, 2009
I actually put my b52 sub right under my coffin. I've had it up almost maxed and never had skipping/tracking issues.

if your tonearms are correctly tuned and you are using good vinyl/needles and the proper weight it shouldn't be an issue. the b52 can't really hit the really low frequency to make um skip.
DJ GaFFle 5:11 AM - 30 September, 2009
Quote:
I've been looking online for a while about sub placement and can't seem to find what I'm looking for. If anyone knows about placing front loaded subs, I'd like to hear your input.

For horn loaded subs I've found all sorts of info on coupling and placing near walls and corners. For front loaded subs, would placing them side by side near a wall achieve the same kind of effect?

...anyone?


They say a properly corner-loaded sub will gain 6dB of output just by sheer placement alone. That's a lot louder as any 3dB in sound is noticeable and around 10dB increases in sound are considered twice the volume.

Are you guys watching your circles on the SETUP screen when the bass notes kick? This will tell you if you're really 'potentially' distort the sound/signal. I'm assuming you're adjusting that 'threshold' value to compensate but such rumble.
DJ GaFFle 5:12 AM - 30 September, 2009
distort = distorting
but = for
latinblood2k1 3:08 PM - 30 September, 2009
Yea I did watch my circles and sometimes it would give a fuzzy lookin circle when the bass would drop but it wouldn`t affect the tracking nor the sound so I assumed that it was never a problem.
Chrisjin 3:27 PM - 30 September, 2009
Like the Lil Jon song

To the window, to the wall
DJ McKay 4:41 PM - 30 September, 2009
i run the Mackie 15's and i put them out infront of me or one on each side of my booth when i use two and i dont have a problem with bass messing up my TT sig
DJ GaFFle 5:11 PM - 30 September, 2009
Quote:
Quote:
I've been looking online for a while about sub placement and can't seem to find what I'm looking for. If anyone knows about placing front loaded subs, I'd like to hear your input.

For horn loaded subs I've found all sorts of info on coupling and placing near walls and corners. For front loaded subs, would placing them side by side near a wall achieve the same kind of effect?

...anyone?


They say a properly corner-loaded sub will gain 6dB of output just by sheer placement alone. That's a lot louder as any 3dB in sound is noticeable and around 10dB increases in sound are considered twice the volume.

Are you guys watching your circles on the SETUP screen when the bass notes kick? This will tell you if you're really 'potentially' distort the sound/signal. I'm assuming you're adjusting that 'threshold' value to compensate but such rumble.

Correction... 9dB instead of 6dB
Chrisjin 5:17 PM - 30 September, 2009
I see alot of DJs putting it under their setup. Depending on the size of the room, I always put one or two subs left and right side wall or left and rear (L shape) to fill the room. I would think having it right under you would cause interference with your workspace.
MexiKanMan 5:28 PM - 30 September, 2009
Latin...I have a B52 Matrix2000 and have always placed my sub beneath my set-up [Just because I'm not a sound guy and know no better]. Anyway, I've had no problems whatsoever with vibrations and signal.

There was some discussion on here not too long ago about that type of placement but I can't remember when or what link? There was discussion about corner placements and folded horns (all of which I know nothing about). Maybe this will refresh someone's memory and they can post that link?
deezlee 5:37 PM - 30 September, 2009
maybe a bad habit to put em under your tables, cause it might be fine at one spot but if the next spot has a less sturdy floor you might have problems... also, if someone puts on real vinyl you might find that the bass feeds back....
latinblood2k1 5:43 PM - 30 September, 2009
Quote:
I see alot of DJs putting it under their setup. Depending on the size of the room, I always put one or two subs left and right side wall or left and rear (L shape) to fill the room. I would think having it right under you would cause interference with your workspace.



what do you mean "or left and rear (L shape)
Mike_P 5:44 PM - 30 September, 2009
direct radiators benefit from corner and wall loading same as horns. what i see a lot of people doing is putting two subs about 10-20 feet apart which will give you cancellation. if you are running more than one sub either center cluster them or stack and wall or corner load them. unless they are more than 50ft apart.
latinblood2k1 5:45 PM - 30 September, 2009
For now I am only running 1 sub but am planning on purchasing a second sub
Mike_P 5:47 PM - 30 September, 2009
i have a b52 matrix 1000 too and the gain from wall loading it is tremendous. corner loaded it's just scary! i can't see straight when i'm standing next to it when it's corner loaded.
SK1 6:56 PM - 30 September, 2009
Thanks for all the info guys. Luckily I have the opportunity to set up around 4 hours before the next gig where the subs will be used. I'll have to try different placement options and run some tests. Center cluster or stacked wall loading may be only options, the room has doors that the staff use in the corners on both sides of me. Placing the subs in either those corners wouldn't work for me unless I can find out if they're only going to use one of the doors.

Hopefully I will be able to get better sound out of all of this. Lately I've been reading Gaffles "Danley Thread", and all of that sub talk makes me want to ditch my direct radiating subs and grab a couple of horn loaded subs for larger events. I don't know if I can go with Danley yet, but Growlers may be within reach.
DJ GaFFle 7:48 PM - 30 September, 2009
Quote:
Thanks for all the info guys. Luckily I have the opportunity to set up around 4 hours before the next gig where the subs will be used. I'll have to try different placement options and run some tests. Center cluster or stacked wall loading may be only options, the room has doors that the staff use in the corners on both sides of me. Placing the subs in either those corners wouldn't work for me unless I can find out if they're only going to use one of the doors.

Hopefully I will be able to get better sound out of all of this. Lately I've been reading Gaffles "Danley Thread", and all of that sub talk makes me want to ditch my direct radiating subs and grab a couple of horn loaded subs for larger events. I don't know if I can go with Danley yet, but Growlers may be within reach.

Growlers are definitely nice too. You get the horn-loaded design, they're lightweight and pretty affordable. DJ Bman and a couple of other guys on this board have them. I truly like passive subs as I get to choose my amp of choice and use my DriveRack to custom tailor the crossover/limiter/gain settings.

Quote:
direct radiators benefit from corner and wall loading same as horns. what i see a lot of people doing is putting two subs about 10-20 feet apart which will give you cancellation. if you are running more than one sub either center cluster them or stack and wall or corner load them. unless they are more than 50ft apart.

Correct... I believe subs that are clustered (side-by-side) should be within 1 wavelength apart (the drivers should be within 3ft of each other) and must be reproducing the same signal (this should be a given).
latinblood2k1 3:29 AM - 8 November, 2009
Hey everyone back again with another question I have been able to read more on sub placements in order to gain more SPL from the subwoofer and have noticed that many people have recommended by wall/corner loading your sub corner loading offering most in gain power.

Many people say that putting the sub near the wall and near corners are the best options for a sub but I haven`t heard anyone say which side of the sub like for example does the sub`s front end (where the bass comes out) needs to face the wall/corner or does it need to face the public/dancefloor to gain that extra SPL?
deezlee 10:04 PM - 8 November, 2009
huh..... a lot of spots have 2 subs, one on each side of the stage... so izzat bad?... it's real common...
latinblood2k1 11:48 PM - 8 November, 2009
Not sure what your saying Deezlee but what I meant to ask is what would be the best to position a sub. I know that if I have the sub facing the corner it gives me a lot more bass than before so therefore I was finally able to figure out the trick.
O.B.1 5:16 AM - 9 November, 2009
Quote:
huh..... a lot of spots have 2 subs, one on each side of the stage... so izzat bad?... it's real common...

he's saying there is some cancellation within the lower freq. bass, (I used to make this same mistake) -after learning a little about room acoustics I've adjusted and noticed a significant improvement :)
Culprit 5:32 AM - 9 November, 2009
i use (4) yamaha SW218vs vertical dead center of the room if on a big stage, or i stack them on top of each other in a corner. This setup is good for around 600 people and i use 6 of them for 1000+
latinblood2k1 5:32 AM - 9 November, 2009
yea what i did was load the sub facing the corner and it has made a big difference i assume thats the ideal and best way to position a sub
Culprit 7:21 AM - 9 November, 2009
Some good stuff here

[www.audioholics.com]

[www.avsforum.com]
Maskrider 7:52 AM - 9 November, 2009
I always put mine near a wall if I have only one Sub but for 2 subs they are dead center facing the dancefloor.
Caramac 1:15 PM - 9 November, 2009
My clubs just had a refurb and they've put the bass bins just to the left of teh dj booth stacked ontop of each other. The thing I noticed is that if I turn the volume down on one of them then the bass is louder and deeper but if they I run them both at normal levels then the bass levels are really low like they are cancelling each other out. Would it be better to stack them either side of the booth?

The room is rectangle dj booth in the far right corner. Bar diagonally across from me and a door in each other corner. About a 250 capacity crowd wise.
Caramac 1:16 PM - 9 November, 2009
And apologies for the thread jack.
Mike_P 1:57 PM - 9 November, 2009
latinblood, to answer your question, when corner loading or wall loading a sub you face the mouth (for horns) or front of the speaker toward the wall or corner.
billfitzmaurice.info
the above link is the best i've seen regarding sub placement. he gives you exact placement including how far from the wall or corner each sub should be placed and with different configurations.
Mike_P 2:00 PM - 9 November, 2009
Quote:
My clubs just had a refurb and they've put the bass bins just to the left of teh dj booth stacked ontop of each other. The thing I noticed is that if I turn the volume down on one of them then the bass is louder and deeper but if they I run them both at normal levels then the bass levels are really low like they are cancelling each other out. Would it be better to stack them either side of the booth?

The room is rectangle dj booth in the far right corner. Bar diagonally across from me and a door in each other corner. About a 250 capacity crowd wise.

this sounds like one of your speakers is out of phase or wired wrong. it's not the positioning that is causing this. you better have the club owners check that out right quick or they are in for some blown subs.
DJ GaFFle 2:50 PM - 9 November, 2009
Quote:
Quote:
My clubs just had a refurb and they've put the bass bins just to the left of teh dj booth stacked ontop of each other. The thing I noticed is that if I turn the volume down on one of them then the bass is louder and deeper but if they I run them both at normal levels then the bass levels are really low like they are cancelling each other out. Would it be better to stack them either side of the booth?

The room is rectangle dj booth in the far right corner. Bar diagonally across from me and a door in each other corner. About a 250 capacity crowd wise.

this sounds like one of your speakers is out of phase or wired wrong. it's not the positioning that is causing this. you better have the club owners check that out right quick or they are in for some blown subs.

+1... out of phase issue.

Corner loading does give you more bass (increased gain) and so does facing the driver towards the corner. You have to experiment. Have any of you ever put a sub box in the trunk area of a hatchback? If you have the drivers facing the back of the car, the bass is tremendous compared to the drivers facing you. Almost the same concept with your PA subs.
DJ Guayo 3:21 PM - 9 November, 2009
i agree. i had a gig this past weekend and i corner-loaded the sub.... big time improvement. i have the b-52 matrix 2000.
Culprit 3:50 PM - 9 November, 2009
Quote:
latinblood, to answer your question, when corner loading or wall loading a sub you face the mouth (for horns) or front of the speaker toward the wall or corner.
billfitzmaurice.info
the above link is the best i've seen regarding sub placement. he gives you exact placement including how far from the wall or corner each sub should be placed and with different configurations.


Mike, thanks for this! This is gold! My question is does his theories apply to front loaded speakers like my yamaha sw218v's or just to horn speakers like the titans.
latinblood2k1 6:39 PM - 9 November, 2009
Quote:
Quote:
latinblood, to answer your question, when corner loading or wall loading a sub you face the mouth (for horns) or front of the speaker toward the wall or corner.
billfitzmaurice.info
the above link is the best i've seen regarding sub placement. he gives you exact placement including how far from the wall or corner each sub should be placed and with different configurations.


Mike, thanks for this! This is gold! My question is does his theories apply to front loaded speakers like my yamaha sw218v's or just to horn speakers like the titans.


Props for the link Mike yes i read that and BIll makes a good point on his various placements the only thing that might confuse people is this diagram

billfitzmaurice.com

notice how the corners are touching the room`s wall? You should have the corners 12" (1 foot) away from the wall. Correct me if I`m rong but that`s what I`ve been told from several experienced sound engineers.

To answer your question Culprit this theory will be best applied for horn subs although you can experiment V-coupling but I don`t think it will make a difference. If you want to corner load your sub make you sure you have the front corners of the sub 12" away from both sides of the wall and have the sub face the wall. For some places it will not always be 12" you can experiment by moving it a little bit more but 12" is a great starting point

As for wall loading a single front loaded sub just place the sub in front of the wall and make sure the corners are both 12" away while having the sub`s mouth face the wall..
Culprit 6:44 PM - 9 November, 2009
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
latinblood, to answer your question, when corner loading or wall loading a sub you face the mouth (for horns) or front of the speaker toward the wall or corner.
billfitzmaurice.info
the above link is the best i've seen regarding sub placement. he gives you exact placement including how far from the wall or corner each sub should be placed and with different configurations.


Mike, thanks for this! This is gold! My question is does his theories apply to front loaded speakers like my yamaha sw218v's or just to horn speakers like the titans.


Props for the link Mike yes i read that and BIll makes a good point on his various placements the only thing that might confuse people is this diagram

billfitzmaurice.com

notice how the corners are touching the room`s wall? You should have the corners 12" (1 foot) away from the wall. Correct me if I`m rong but that`s what I`ve been told from several experienced sound engineers.

To answer your question Culprit this theory will be best applied for horn subs although you can experiment V-coupling but I don`t think it will make a difference. If you want to corner load your sub make you sure you have the front corners of the sub 12" away from both sides of the wall and have the sub face the wall. For some places it will not always be 12" you can experiment by moving it a little bit more but 12" is a great starting point

As for wall loading a single front loaded sub just place the sub in front of the wall and make sure the corners are both 12" away while having the sub`s mouth face the wall..


Thanks man, will try this at my next gig!
Culprit 6:53 PM - 9 November, 2009
Quote:
Phase:
It’s critical that your subs and mains be in phase at the crossover frequency, or their outputs will cancel each other out. The best way to check it is with a signal generator or test CD, running a signal at the crossover frequency through the system. If your crossover, sub amp or system controller has a phase inverter function try it with the feed to the sub amp in both positions; you’ll be able to hear one position is louder. With a simpler system make up two sets of interconnects from the crossover to the sub amp, one regular, one with reverse polarity, marking them so you know which is which. Placement of the subs and mains will change their phase relationships, so test it with every new venue or change of speaker placement.


Meaning one must be [positive - positive / negative - negative] and the other [positive - negative / positive - negative] ?
djbigboy 6:56 PM - 9 November, 2009
the subs shouldn't be underneath the stage, near the coffin, farther away is always better - I go out about 20 feet to the left and to the right of the coffin..the bigger your set up, the farther away you may want to be.

Looks like you got the issue sorted tho
SK1 3:36 AM - 10 November, 2009
The first time I used my subs (front loaded 18's), I thought I wasted my money. I just planned on building a couple of horn loaded subs when I get the time and money.

Well I thanks to the advice here, I used them for my pre-halloween gig. I stacked them and wall loaded them about 9" off the wall. Near the subs I couldn't tell that there was too much happening, but once I got out in front of the tables (about 15' in front of the subs), the difference was huge. I could actually hear and feel the bass. Now I don't feel like I wasted my money, but I still plan on building some horn loaded subs.
Culprit 6:52 AM - 10 November, 2009
Quote:
The first time I used my subs (front loaded 18's), I thought I wasted my money. I just planned on building a couple of horn loaded subs when I get the time and money.

Well I thanks to the advice here, I used them for my pre-halloween gig. I stacked them and wall loaded them about 9" off the wall. Near the subs I couldn't tell that there was too much happening, but once I got out in front of the tables (about 15' in front of the subs), the difference was huge. I could actually hear and feel the bass. Now I don't feel like I wasted my money, but I still plan on building some horn loaded subs.


Facing the wall or just 9 inches near the wall facing dance floor?
SK1 1:54 AM - 11 November, 2009
Quote:
Facing the wall or just 9 inches near the wall facing dance floor?


Sorry... facing the wall, but 9 inches away from the wall. For various types of subs they recommend different distances, but I just went with 9. I might try 12 inches away from the wall next time. I have a gig in the same space next week, so I plan to play around with the spacing a little more this time.
Culprit 5:23 AM - 11 November, 2009
cool man lemmy know your results
Caramac 12:14 PM - 11 November, 2009
Quote:
Quote:
My clubs just had a refurb and they've put the bass bins just to the left of teh dj booth stacked ontop of each other. The thing I noticed is that if I turn the volume down on one of them then the bass is louder and deeper but if they I run them both at normal levels then the bass levels are really low like they are cancelling each other out. Would it be better to stack them either side of the booth?

The room is rectangle dj booth in the far right corner. Bar diagonally across from me and a door in each other corner. About a 250 capacity crowd wise.

this sounds like one of your speakers is out of phase or wired wrong. it's not the positioning that is causing this. you better have the club owners check that out right quick or they are in for some blown subs.


I forget the makes of the subs but they were the cheapest ones in the shop. They're running into seperate amps again forget the makes now. Behringer or Gemini. And they were plugged into the bridge section of the amp not the left or right channel.
OG Supernatural 12:36 AM - 12 November, 2009
Always try to keep the sub away from the set-up/TT's. As close to a corner as possible... It's much easier on your ears and equipment.



scratchlive.net
Culprit 5:25 AM - 26 December, 2009
Ive decided to build my own tops [billfitzmaurice.com].

I purchased some tapco 6925's which are powered by QSC PLX 3602 and DOD eq and I have to say I am not happy with them. or I am doing something wrong.

They are getting 600W RMS @ 8OHM (as recommended by the manufacturer) and eq'd at 100hz and my eq's are all at 12 o clock (even on the dj mixer) and it seems that after a certain level is reached, the tweeters either fade out or turn off as if they are being overloaded. I cant talk on the microphone because the amp limiters activate shutting off the speakers. I used 4 of them (all facing different angles to avoid phasing) and they just were not cutting it for me.

I am thinking of building the Dr 280's and powering them with my QSC PLX 1802's. Also going to join that forum and see what their users recommended. They seem like a cool bunch over there, anyways thanks in advance for anyone who can help or provide some kind if tip since I have 6 of these things in my warehouse : /
Culprit 5:26 AM - 26 December, 2009
*forgot to say also DOD Crossover
Culprit 5:28 AM - 26 December, 2009
Going to build 6 DR280's and stack them on top of my SW218's for now until I decide to build my own subwoofers, which I am most likely going to do.

Also everyone else around me says the tapco's sound badass and that I am crazy.. but I think any professional out there would easily know what I am talking about..
Victor L 6:00 AM - 3 January, 2010
Very interesting. I have 1 PRX718s and 2 Eon515's. Based on what I read above, i should have my sub face AWAY from the crowd/dancefloor and into a corner or wall?
latinblood2k1 6:41 AM - 3 January, 2010
exactly
Victor L 6:47 AM - 3 January, 2010
I can't wait to try this, I always put the sub somewhere in between the tops facing the crowd. +9 dB sounds lofty, but I'll take anything.
latinblood2k1 6:49 AM - 3 January, 2010
you should be able to get a extra +3 dbs by having the sub fire towards the wall (atleast 12 inches away) and if you load it with the 2 corners of the sub facing 12 inches away from the wall`s sides and facing the corner you should be able to gain a extra +6 dbs
Victor L 7:10 AM - 3 January, 2010
someone should invent a portable corner
OG Supernatural 12:25 AM - 4 January, 2010
LOL @ portable corner...NICE
Culprit 9:12 PM - 4 January, 2010
I know i posted this somehwere here, but I corner loaded my dual 18s for the first time all stacked on each other and man it made a huge difference! I had them facing the corner at least 12 inches away 4 of them stacked on each other and it the bass was hard hitting and smooth, and defenitly louder!
Victor L 8:42 PM - 5 January, 2010
Right after I read this post I decided to try it with my little KRK Rokit 6 and definitely noticed a difference. On occasion I don't take my sub with me and just use 2 EON515's. Would it make any sense to put one in a corner? Sounds like a dumb question I'm sure, but I never thought facing the sub in the corner would have worked either.