Placement is important, in my garage i can have my 18's facing oposite the crowd torwards the wall thats directly behind me & you can definitely feel the bass on the dance floor more than when they were facing the crowd...........i tried it at a hall that had a big stage & so the back wall is farther back & it sounded like crap, maybe if i placed the 18's closer to the wall it might have sounded better but I cant say because i didnt try it..........I think they call this reflective bass.

Interesting... I have often wanted to try that at a gig mostly because the bass can get soooo booomy where I set up (next to the sub and about 4 feet from the wall. When I walk out to the dance floor to see if it's hittin as hard out there... it never is. However, I may try it the next time I do a smaller facility.

LOL! 18's in a garage! You must be popular with the neighbors.

Applies mainly to home audio/home theater, but this might be of some interest:

www.harman.com

Outdoor bass is another challenge. I was at a car show a few weeks ago and they had two dj's. One of which had four 18's and four tops and it sounded like shiiiiit! He spread them out over a large distance (100 yds) and was pushin em waaay to hard (sounded like the gains were too hot). With what I've been reading on subwoofer placement he would have got a lot more sound (bass punch) out of those 18's by placing them within two feet of each other.

The other dj had two Cerwin 18 Earthquakes and I've heard those things smash but again his bass was weak until you got close to them.

Anyone have outdoor bass tricks of the trade?

Tricks of the trade:
1. Putting subs close to a wall makes them more effective.
2. Putting them in a corner makes them VERY effective.
3. Don't put them on opposite sides of the room as they'll cancel out at various points in the room.
4. Make sure the polarity on the two is the SAME (if your setup can allow it). Opposite polarity on the subs can cut your output in half or more.

There are a few others but those are the basics. If you want to really delve into this sort of thing I recommend the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook. It's full of all sorts of of formulas dealing with speaker placement, and a hell of a lot more.

Interesting study... I still have to wrap my mind around a lot of this...nulls??? "putting a sub on either side of a null results in cancellation due to opposite polarity...hummmm

phasing out?

When you double the power (300-600 watts) you get a 3db increase; however, when you couple speaker, you get an accoustic phenomenon -- out of nowhere you get 6db increase. So instead of buying freak loads of expensive amps, it's better to just get more speakers.

Amp power -- 400 watts 103db, 800 watts 106db, 1600 watts 109db, 3200 watts 112 db, 6400 watts 115db

More Speakers -- 1 speaker 103db, 2 speakers 109db, 4 speakers 115 db, 8 speakers -- LOOK OUT!

Don't under power speakers get enough power and your good to go....... WILD!

Still don't quite understand what the polarity switch on the back of the subs are used for??? I have heard that it is used if the ground in the outlet is wired different???

I have read some discussion on putting the sub close to the wall in the center of the room vs. off center. Off center being better.

Outdoors with no walls... any tricks?

BTW...good lookin on the "Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook", I'll check that out.

This is to do with bass omni direction, if you place them in a corner they cant go into the wall so the bass goes out. If you place them in a field or the middle of a dance floor the bass is less controllable.. it goes everywhere in a wall really force direction... 8 bass speakers in a corner.... damn!!

This same principle was found in several articles i just recently read on the net::::

Place the subwoofer at your main listening position. Play a movie or CD with deep, sustained bass. Walk around the front half of the room until you find the spot with the best bass. Place the subwoofer there.

I think this should work because the reason I faced the speakers torwards the back was the same reason you wanted to try it Supernatural....bass sounds better somewhere else other than dancefloor........

at my garage my initial setup had my spekaers facing forward right torwards the dance area....the best sounding bass was behind my setup so by facing them behind my setup torwards the back was basicly doing what i just read in the article

or you cold get a real time analyzer... www.rane.com

WHen you say more speakers your not increasing the amp power?

it's best you have suitable amps... this is theory, if you add more amp power you will get a bigger increase in sound pressure level (db).

One of these www.crownaudio.com could run 8 750 watt speakers...

I mean the 8000.. www.crownaudio.com

I am considering adding another sub to my system but I'm trying to find out if I should add the same sub as I am currently using or get the bigger model and try coupling them?

I have an email to KV2...we'll see what they say.

Here's a basic audiophile type article on setting up a sub.
www.onhometheater.com

Keep in mind that professional subs may not have all the controls mentioned.

As for polarity - it adjusts the signal going into the speaker. If you have 2 subs try setting the polarity switch on one 180* out and put them side by side. You should notice large 'holes' in the bass because the 2 signals are out of phase and cancel each other out.

Adjusting polarity can also have an effect if the room is on the smaller side.

And you can actually calculate the resonant frequencies of the room and adjust your eq to compensate but that's a bit of overkill for most mobile gigs. The calculations are in the Yamaha book I mentioned ealier.

BTW, if you're not interested in the calculations and the boring details I recommend 'Live Sound for Musicians'. It's 100% math-free but does a pretty good job explaining the technical side (without math!).

Good reading... this article also confirms that putting the sub next to the wall at mid point is no good. " the key to minimizing standing waves is staying away from symmetry.

When subwoofer coupling...What is the proper distance between the two subs???

I have read that it's within a half wavelength. What is the distance of a wavelength or half wavelength???? WTF! LOL!

It is good to put them right next to each other..

Wavelength is the length of the frequency playing... Eg. 32 hertz (a B note) is twice the length of 64 hertz (a B note). 82 Hertz (an E note), is half the lenght of 41 hertz (an E also, but an octave below)..

Also, standing waves are good to use..

If a B note is (for example) 15 feet.. A room that is 15, 30, 45, 60 feet will do what is called a standing wave. If the room is exactly 45 feet (for example) the note will couple and increase by 6 or 9 db (can't remember which one). So if you have a parametric eq, you can dial that specific frequency and shake the room. But you have to measure the room, and know the length of the frequencies.. then just dial it in...

I thought I read somewhere that it would equate to about 2' in distance. Any truth to this?

Damn...can you see the mind fry smoke coming from my head...LOL!

but be careful, utilizing standing wave are tricky, and if you don't know what your doing, you can really screw things up...

standing waves are nightmares for some engineers... and in some rooms..

I think it's important for us mobiles to get an understanding on this subject. Most of us have invested good money in quality equipment and it's a shame to set up and not get optimum or even a good sound out of our systems because the sub is not in a good location and eq settings are off. Ohhhhh the shame...*head down kickin dirt* LOL!

when i first took my ol powered 18 jbl sub (replaced with tiny pair of 10" KRK powered subs), i placed my mixer/cdj100s ON TOP of the bass cab (used as a table, since the facility had none left....).... to make a long story short, i had a bad headache that lasted over 2 days long :(

This subject is also important for you Mike because you are trying to get the most out of two small 10" subs. 6 db boost by coupling them!

yeah, i know these are not right for my application, but after hours of pumping them lil babies.... maybe the amp is overheating, but i do notice a prominant decrease in peformance.

what i shoulda (coulda) done is roll with a york mini single powered sub :(

You might want to see if you're having any problems with the subs. Try pushing in on the cone gently and see if you can feel the voice coils rubbing. It will cause them to heat up and become more ineffecient. This problem is caused when the voice coil reaches incursion and smacks the plate at the back of the magnet. The voice coil then mushrooms and starts rubbing on the inside of the magnet making it hotter.

Another possibility is hearing loss from working near the subs so much. I'd have my hearing checked to be sure.

Something else you can do:
Run the subs in mono as a 4 ohn load (assuming the subs are 8ohm and your amp will handle it). It will give you more power to the subs and it will remain 'cleaner' for far longer.

How do you currently set them up at gigs?

Ha! I started to get a little excited reading that...like one of those romance novels...LOL!

Meister is like a walking encyclopedia.

That he is!

I'll vouch for the Meister, too...always lays it down solid, no bullshit.

Meister is the complete inverse (opposite) of this guy (or gal) --> www.scratchlive.net advanced apologies fer tha low blow

Just don't answer a question, or it will result in another...just like a 2 year old...

That guy has been for real pissin me off. As punosion said he's like a 2 year old.

who me? why? sorry, im new. thanks.

Allow me to introduce you to your two new best friends:

www.google.com

scratchlive.net

man i keep fergetting bout my poor hearing...gotta check out that other thread referring ear filters... thanks fer tha reminder MM



not exactly sure how to do this (these KRKs are self amplified)...

Just got back from a rehearsal for a wedding tomorrow. Yep, I was scoping a good place for the woofers. They are killin me though... half inside half outside!!!

OK Meister... time to post a mix because if you can put it down like your posts, that's somthin we gotta hear!!!

Oh shit... I now have a reputation to uphold...

I'm working on it... I'll be working a wedding on July 1st with Julls in Ft. Walton Beach. I'll be doing most of the talking and bringing a lot of music (although Julls has a pretty sweet collection going on himself). We'll be using his setup since a lot of my equipment is still in Alaska or enroute but I did order a LED Curtain to set up behind us to clean up the appearance.

As soon as I either order some more equipment or mine gets here I'll try to throw down a mix...

BTW, my background is in computer and electronics. In less than 10 months I went from working as a bartender to managing a bar (and doing most of the DJing). I'll be interviewing Monday for a 'real' job so I can afford some more equipment and if all goes well in about 6 weeks I'll have a pretty sweet setup.

I wasn't aware that the KRK's are self amplified. Ignore everything I said above with regards to this. Instead, you might want to look at adding one of the JBL Eon Subs, a Mackie 1801, or something along those lines to add some punch.

BTW, for those of you doing mobile work, I've seen a B-52 Matrix 2000 in action and it's got some punch for being a single 18". The Matrix 1000 V2 has some punch for a 15" - but not as much as that 18 though...

Ok, I did the gig last night paying more attention to sub placement. I was outdoors and instead of putting the sub next to me, I put it against the wall about 1' behind me, What a difference!!!

I was using the KV2's and had one inside and one outside. Once the party started I pulled the one from inside but found I didn't even need it. I used it at minimal level because this one was placed closer to where people gathered next to the dance floor which allowed them to still carry on a conversation. While the other one was smackin. A "sound freak" (as he called himself) came up to me to ask about the system. Said he had been trying to figure out where I was hiding the rest of the speakers...LOL! He turned out to be a studio engineer and talked to me more about sub placement. He said that you can couple two different subwoofers and that you should place them right next to each other and try to align the cones to the front (some sub cones are recessed more in the enclosure).

Anyway, next weekend I'm doing a wedding for the manager of a few rappers, which will be there. 600+ mosly Latin and Black folks so you know Ima need all the bass I can get out of my system. I'll be coupling foo shoooo!

two different subwoofers as in two different 'manufacturers or models/sizes'?

that would make sense since different speaker model sizes cover different ranges of the sound spectrum (some hit well in the mid rangy punchy thud in your face sound while some hit well in the low rumble warm thick subsonic fat bass that travels through your body sound)

Yeah, different size and manufacturers. However, then we get into the whole EQ thing, you have to know what tones are doing what and correct or ballance them out. I guess it's kinda like correcting mic feedback. After a while I got pretty good and singling out the tone thats feeding back and hitting it with the EQ.

Anyway, I'll let you know how it goes this weekend.

I've never been happy with the results from mixing different subwoofers...things always seem to sound better with all of the subs being the same make/model.

I've also seen some odd "placement" situations where what one would normally expect to work best didn't, and a lot of experimentation resulted in seemingly strange placement giving the best results (especially in odd-sized rooms).

That's what I was thinking. I currently do not have matching subs so I'll se what happens this weekend.

@Mark...Any tricks of the trade that you know about for sub placement when outside in an open area (no walls)???

I have not done a lot of outdoor sound, but that seems like a situation where horn-loaded subs (with some directional characteristics and "throw") would be the right tool for the job (as opposed to direct-radiating designs). All of the above advice regarding coupling should still apply.

someone told me the new jbl srx 18's sound good outside, i havent heard them outside but inside they sound great, there really small & so i think the speaker actually faces the floor.....maybe you can have your speakers up on bricks or something facing the ground (just a thought)

OR

Just crank the mids & highs untill everyones ears hurt so they tell you to turn it down......

Acually i think the onyl remedy outside is to have lots & lots of subs

You can get better distribution with different types of subs but only 2 things can give you more bass.

1. Bigger Speakers
2. Longer Throw

It's all about moving the air to get those low frequencies. There are sub designs that produce greater output - primarily folded horn and ported boxes.

The best thing to do would be to just try different setups outside. The comparison inside a building between speakers won't compare to what you get outside.

Ok...I coupled two different active subs in a very large ball room with 600 people and it worked well. I had the volume set on nominal on both subs and never messed with it.

I noticed that I really didn't have to push the system and the bass was still clean and not overpowering.

A few times during the evening I did hear what sounded like a low tone feedback as if I had an open mic. I believe adjusting the correct tone on the EQ would take care of this. However, It only happened on a few songs AND The subs were sitting next to me so I didn't mess with the EQ because I was thinking I might be hearing stuff that the dance floor isn't???

Another point... I was thinking that coupling the subs would cause some mic feedback issues and in this case it did not.

Last point... I love it when the dj from next door comes over with the room captain to ask me to turn it down. Actually, the part I like is when they came over all they could see were the full range KV2's on stands and were looking around for the subs. LOL! Then I watched them discuss something over by the bar. Shortly after the room captain came over to me and said the dj next door wanted you to turn it down because he is getting "too much boom" on his side but after hearing the sound first hand on my side for some reason he decided to disregard his request for me to turn it down???? The room captain and I laughed about it but now I'm wondering why the other dj decided to let it go???
LOL! Maybe because he finally realized those two little boxes were subs and were shaming his 18's???

Supernatural Did you have a chance to leave the ballroom to go sound what it sounds like from the other rooms....A lot of times the room your in acts like a huge speaker enclosure & it enhances the sound of the bass outside..at least thats what I think it does because so many times I'll go outside & think damn my bass sounds good out here....not as loud but its as if you can feel it more

Super, where the two bass cabs side by side? do u have pics of the orientation/placement of your gear at the site. thanks for your feedback.

where = were. or was it wear....or ware like in hardware, or whare as in wharehouse....

ok, its supposed to be were as in the question were :)

Ha! After more thought, I think that's exatly what happened.

The bass was nice in my room but for some reason the dj next door was getting that real low boomy tone. In his defense I believe he was a KJ/DJ. Usually when both parties are going you don't really notice the other dj's music/bass. I'm thinking he must of been doing the KJ portion of his event when he heard my bass.

Good call though ejayian... I'm sure that's what happened and once I started playing, I never had a chance to go next door to check it out. I guess it's kind of like having a bass enclosure built for the trunk of your car where if you face the woofers to the back of the car you get more bass inside the car (and visa versa).

I can't believe that I've gone this long without mastering sub placement and getting a good understanding of bass signal characteristics.

LOL! If I actually knew what I did to "boom out" the dude next door I could use that in my arsenal for future reference. Hahaha!

Yep, the subs were coupled (side by side). I was set up towards the right side of the back wall, not quite in a corner. However, I placed the subs about 2' from the booth which put them closer to the corner of the room. I don't think we got any pics of the full system...just the booth.

Ha! Remember that old school cut "Bass Mechanic"???

LOL - I remember that all to well, that was the CD I used to tune so many cars that wanted to put bump in the trunk.... I'll never get over the amount of money put in to all those amps and subs, and the damn car leaked oil all over the fricken floor while it was in the bay....

Hahaha Super, funny you mention that track. I was bumpin' it yesterday.

ADE?.... Darlin, who's ADE?

Hahaha...yeah! ....and that barking dog sample in the background.

Someday I'll be an official Bass Mechanic!

feel that bass bass bass bass (fade out echo) cgi.ebay.com

I couldn't have said it better.
Now I use to own about 16 CV L36s. IT's documented out there that if you coulple two of these together you will get a 3db increase. DB is exponetial so that's a huge increase when you go from say 118 to 121.

The other thing you have to be aware of is the type of horn enclosure. Folded or straight horn loading is meant to be effective at long distances. The common problems with this is being in a room to short for the through and having wave cancellation issues from reflections off the opposite wall, or having the bass "hit" beyond the intended spot i.e. the dance floor. I have a four 15 sub that does just that. It came out of a club install and was designed to hit between 15 to 35 feet in front of it.

The other enclosure type you tend to have are ported and you have to be aware fo how they are ported. Anyone remember the ramsa 10" subs? You stack 16 of those things 2 hogh and 8 across about 18 inches from a wall and they will out do the same speaker inch of front loaded 18's. But if you move them further from the wall they sound like crap.

There are so many different variances that you have to know your speakers. The same thing doesn't work for all of them. I can tell you two things for folded horns though. If you can set them next to each other same direction and line them up with a wall they will use the wall as an extension of the horn. Figuring out where they hit and fall off at is esential. You don't want people on the dance floor saying there's no bass while granny at the table just off the dance floor has here dentures rocked.

Front loaded subs are easier to deal with.
The other thing I didn't see mentioned here is delay. Most good crossovers will have delay for each cut the produce. What you want it to have the waveform output start and finish at the same distance form the speakers. On front loaded speakers this is easy.
Just make sure all the cones are lined up. Most builtin crossovers for horns/tweeters already have the delay set in them.
On horn loaded systems its not the same and if you are putting your subs infornt of of behind your tops it all together a different thing. The yamaha book can explain it better than I can here. I go did that thing out and give you some page numbers to what I'm talking about.

One last thing. With all the theory in the world nothing can beat just experimenting on the venue. When I see I'm gonna be at a place more than once I try to get some time with a db meter and my RTA and just tryout different configuration.

I'm rambling a bit becasue I'm at work but will do a better post when I get some time this weekend. This is my monday for gigs and I won't be doen till saturday night.

Last but not least I liked "Audio Tech" better than "bass mechanic" hahah

good lord can we get an edit feature on this FORUM PLEASE!!!!!

Thanks hologram... I know you'd come through with some good info.

*knew* LOL!

ah, wow ---- are there cliff notes available?

Hehe I'm lagging on the later input. I'll get it up by sunday.
I'm dead at work. Think I'm gonna have to cut down on a few of my weeklies.

Here are some pics of that gig! chrisflure.brinkster.net

BTW...this is also the Red Bull tweak gig...LOL!

man, that place looks HUGE! how many people were there? did u have enough lighting?

Yeah man... I'm tired of gettin smashed out workin behind or next to the sub. At the last 4-5 gigs I have been more aware of sub placement and happy with the results. More bass on the dance floor and less at the dj booth. For the most part, getting the sub up against the wall, closer to a corner, and at least 5-6 feet to my left/right has made a significant difference.

I hate to admit that I've been setting myself up in a smash/swumpin zone all this time and that such a small adjustment has made such a difference... oh well...LOL!

Wait till you couple those 18's if you havent already. That's also an impresive trick of the trade!

Yooo Mike C... I'll be in San Jose this weekend rockin a wedding in one of the Hyatt's ballrooms. Put your church clothes on and come hear the KV2's...LOL!

BTW... thanks for the cha cha tips!

i'm there dude!

I'm laggin I know.

Oh the shame! We are all fam right??? Ok... I'll share. First of all before you worry about coupling your subs make sure you are hookin your ish up correctly! I have a new sub (KV2 2.2 double 12")and did not know both channels needed to have an input. I thought that because I was running mono that the left input was sufficient, especially with all the latest technology this thing has. Anyway, one of my dj partners on the east coast purchased the same speaker and said when he hooked up both channels this thing became a beast.

Sooooo, this weekend I was in San Jose in a fairly large ballroom with about 250-300 people and hooked up both channels (pached the left output to the right input). BOOOM! *chandeliers and ceiling stuff vibrating* Yep...double the sound. This is where the shame is...for about three months now I have only been using this sub at 50%... and coupling it with a Mackie 15" to get more bass for large events. BTW... this thing hits harder than the Mackie at only 50%. Hahaha! I can hear the ish talkin now... Mr. Pro can't even hook his ish up correctly! LOL!

Here is the cool part... at the end of the evening when my wife and I were breaking down (she does "cord duty"), My wife says, "look at this"... There was a bunch of shredded paper in front of the sub????? Actually the shredded paper was ours... It was the itinerary, song list, and list of the bridal party, that my wife had set on the stage (sub was next to the stage). What remained of the paper was worn like an old dollar bill???? My lady says. "did the sub do that"??? I said if it did... THAT'S HELLA COOL!

I'm almost positive the sub sucked the paper to the front of it and started shredding because when I put a Tecate can in front of it (only using one channel) it grabbed the can, pulled it in and made it start dancin up and down the grill of the sub.

Anyway, now I really can't wait to couple that sub with the Mackie. Go on and talk your ish... I deserve it! LOL!

At half the power your 2.2 hits harder than which mackie?

what cool is when i read your post randy, i can you hear voice along with it, like that pimp daddy low end barry white voice, its fucking hilarious in my mind.

Mackie 15" sub.

I'm thinking the Mackie 18 also. The KV was holding its own against the York LS800P at 50% also.

These are dark pics, but this is the KV next to the York when I was testing them out.

i78.photobucket.com
i78.photobucket.com

Supernatural, how much did that KV2 run you?

I just got my 2nd Mackie 1501 sub. I've yet to do an event with the full setup. I know you've been running Mackie for a minute. What made you buy the KV2 and does it REALLY hit that much harder than the Mackie 1501? I read about them and Yorks on other forums and I tend to think they're partial to the other brands as if they have planted regional sales guys sitting on the forums trying to sway opinions.

Any pros / cons?

...oh dear,

I did a search for that KV2 EX2.2 and saw it was $3500!!!

Nevermind...

$3500?

Thirty Five Hundred?

Three Thousand Five Hundred.......... American Dollars?

That sure sounds expensive but if you break it down......

Lets see a pair of mackie 15's run about what $2000? If a pair of KV2s kick twice as hard as supernatural claims you would need $4000 worth of mackie 15's to keep up so you actually save $500

Hey supernatural if you ever get a gig close to sanfrancisco I would like it if my brother could come & check out those KV2s to actually see if they kick twice as hard as his mackie 15's....

lemmie be tha first to tell ya ta 'read tha fun manual' :)

nice thing to know is if/when u do blow the single side (l or r), u r not 'line down'. u simply have to switch from left to right and your up and running... no down time.

So the KV2 is a precoupled Sub like the servo drives use to be?
That's cool.

The sub costs about $1300.

Don't do that bro. You end up buying one. I'm warning you.

I like the Mackie 1501's, they have served well along with the 450's. In attempt to find something better I listened to several comparable active speakers and did some research on KV2. There was only two places on the west coast I could go to hear these things. Just so happened my boy matt212 was lookin at getting a set also and found a dealer on the east coast. Mat212 has the Mackie 450's and Yorkville 750 and the York LS800 sub www.yorkville.com which will shake your wig and push your chest...LOL!

Not only does matt212 own thes speakers he was able to do a side by side demo with several different speakers. He called me up laughing... talkin about he ordered the EX12's and the 2.2. After all the rave reviews and first hand info from matt212 it was on! Yeah, not only does the 2.2 hit harder than my Mackie, it hits harder than most active 18's.

Pros / Cons.....

Well... my best analogy is mp3 vs WAV. If you can't tell the difference in sound quality between the two, there is probably no need to spend the additional $ on KV2 over the Mackie's.

The KV2's are crazy accurate! You get a lot of sound/tones out of the 2.2 double 12 sub... not just boom, if that makes sense.

The 2.2 is about the same size as the Mackie 1501 (if you lay the Mackie on it's side).

The beautiful thing for me is the over all sound quality. As a mobile dj, I often play at facilities that don't allow much room for the dj because they are trying to fit as many people/tables inside as they can, which results in me having to place the speakers near a table. Here's the kicker... when I would place the Mackie 450's near a table 60% of the time someone from that table would ask if I could turn it down. What are you gonna do... if you turn it down the people in the back can't hear during dinner or cocktails. With the KV2's no one has asked me to turn them down. This is huge for me! The sound is very clean which make it unobtrusive so people can still carry on a conversation while enough sound is reaching the back of the room.

There is also a significant when rockin the dance floor. The KV2's don't need to be pushed and they keep a consistent sound quality at higher volume levels. The Mackies become a bit harsh and bitey at higher volume.

Again, when you are rockin a crowd will anyone notice that you are playing WAV vs. mp3...Noooooo. I think if someone is looking for more sound quality than what the top name brands have out there now, KV2 is worth checkin out. For myself, the $ investment was worth it. So yeah, the 2.2 hits harder and has a lot more punch that you feel vs. the 1501's boomy tones.

Donde, where, wher dey at?

Hahaha! It's true... you'll be searchin under the cushions and bustin piggy banks, breakin yourself to get em. LOL!

Yeah, I'll holla at you bro, I may be down there soon to do a car show.

Thanx for the info SupaNat.

I've gotta do a few more gigs b4 I get the loot to consider these but I will keep them in mind.

Yeah, who would have thunk it! I had a hard time wrapping my mind around the fact that I needed to patch the left output to the right input to fire this thing up %100. I figured with all the technology, It would do it automatically. Ha! Oh well I've made it this far without my mind workin at %100. LOL!

After talking to a few dealers, Bill at Entertainment Systems Corp. is the man to talk to. He blows no smoke and will give you his bottom line upfront. Hard to find dealers like that!
www.entsyscorp.com

I had one dealer tell me he would take $20 off a used sub. I told him to set the phone down and slap himself. LOL!

ROTFLMAO!

GaFFle, if you know what randy's voice sounds like, you would be laughing even harder to hear him say that!! hahaha

Lorrence is right :)

just imagine Barry White and John Wayne rolled into one :) jk Supa!

yo Supa, did u and tha wifey get a chance to peep that Sonoma Chicken Coup downtown SJ www.sonomachickencoop.com

We endend up at cool sea food spot. Ever been there? www.opentable.com

damn randy, yuor fucking so cool i wish i was you.

I'm running all powered Mackie's 2 18" 1801 subs, with 1521's or 450's, depending on the venue. My preference in most places is to put the subs side by side, with the mains on tripods for L and R. This is hands down the best sounding speaker I've ever owned, not to mention easy to use and pretty wicked lookin.

My tips? Always try to couple your subs. If they are different subs, my feeling is you'd get better sound with subs in separate corners. The Mackie's are nice in the sense that the amp is built in, and specifically designed for THAT speaker.

If you're looking for passive subs, look at the sensitivity @ 1 watt/1 meter. You could take two similar looking 18" subs, 1 with 98dB and 1 with 103 dB 1W/1M. Drive each with the same amp and the 103dB will hands down be the better sub at the same wattage. I've always felt this was a downfall of some cabinets like JBL which can sound great, but you have to really crank them.

My 2 cents...

Thanks man...

Have you heard the new active double 18 Mackie sub yet???

Interesting indeed!

Mackie SWA2801 www.mackie.com

^^ They don't hold a candle to these

www.qsc.com

hehe

Ooooooooh... I gotta go hear those also!

wanna battle?

check out tha one with the door knob in tha middle www.royaldevice.com

we like tha cars, tha cars that go boom www.termpro.com

WTF... I want one of those!!!

That gives a new meaning to don't let the door knob hit ya!

I too have the Mackies 1801 paired with the 450. Anyway, I put the 450's on speaker poles on one 18 (connected from the hi-pass out of the sub) and just put one set on the left and on the right. If I put the 18's in one corner, do I still use the hi-pass out to connect the 450's? And what about the 18's, do I connect them stereo or just jump them mono?

With two 18's I'm sure you have bass to spare most of the time and don't need to couple them unless it's a wig shaker jam =)

However, if you are gonna shake wigs and pound chests and couple them in a corner I would still run the 450's with a filter, not necessarily through the hi-pass from the sub but select the filter on the back of the 450 (using the through output from the sub). At many gigs I change the filter on the back of the 450's depending on what's going on (dinner music, announcements, toasts) or depending on the volume level. If you are gonna rock it, then def filter the bass and let the 18's do the work.

I would run (patch/jump) the 18's in mono.

JESUS TITTY FUCKING!!! Is that thing louder than that jack-hammer woofer they had on Pimp My Ride? If I'm not mistaken that was also made by MTX

What do you mean by (patch/jump) the 18's in mono?


I have 2 450's and two 1501s. I'm having trouble visualizing the mono configuration. Is it a Y-cable coming from my Rane mixers for each left and right channel ?

There is some controversey on this subject but for the most part the bass signal is in mono. This means if you are running your system in stereo you can simply patch one sub to the other. If the first sub you hook up is on the left channel then just patch (out of the first sub into the second) to your other sub, no need to run the subs in stereo.

Again, there is some controversey on this because some songs have stereo bass but it's my understanding that most do not especially with dance, hip hop, etc..

Hopefully this helps.

Not yet, but I will soon....at WOS of course, before I bought the 18's home I remember sampling them for about 15min cranked up and the mean ol lady from the bank next door came bitchin, it's too LOUD! Heh-heh, it was a Hallmark moment.. anyone else try out the new double 18? anyone? ... Bueller?

There might be some stereo bass that might add to the stereo experience when playing on a straight-up audiophile system. In the club? IMHO, use your sub energy to make that club shake as much as you can...go mono. It's more or less the same theory with car audio...it's more of what home theater guys would call a "2.1" setup.

Looks like this is my next mission. Are they available yet or are they coming soon?

^^If you're in vegas go check out CHROME in the Santa Fe station Casino. There are a pair right in front of the stage.

i have 2 sets of subs, each pair is in a different type of enclosure, i want to run all 4 next week at a house party im going to be doing. what would the best placement be?

I was thinking 2 on each end and 2 in the middle in mono mode.

I would put all 4 of them in front of you.

Hmmmm... my understanding is that you should NOT place subs in the middle. I also would not put them in front of me because of the shitty feedback boom you will be listening to all night.

Personally, I like the subs away from me and towards a corner.
I would either couple them all towards a corner OR couple two (matching pair)in each corner, Depending on the room.

I understand where your comming from OG, but wouldn't you get a bigger boom if they were all together, insted of split up?

It's okey to couple subs as long as your phase is okey.
You don't want the low frequencies cancelled.
Alway check the phase and don't mix L and R.

www.djstuart.com.ar

@ Julls, it really depends on the room set up. If it's a huge room I would couple all 4 to the same side of the room as the dance floor (not the center of the room). Also, I just wouldn't want to get beat up all night by standing directly behind 4 coupled subs....ouch. Besides, you get more out of the subs when they are against a wall.

Actually, it looks like this is for a house party. I think I would only use two subs at the most anyway. Coupling two in a corner should be plenty.

Stuart is right... phase is important. It should be obvious they are out of phase when you do your sound check. In other words, if they are out of phase you will get that look on your face like someone farted when they walked by you...LOL

What do you mean by mix Left and Right?

Gotcha. I didn't know that, thanks. I only have one sub, so I have never really run into that problem. I would love to play around and try out some configs.

its gonna be in a open garage, normally i would only bring a pair but I wanted to test the subs that have been sitting for the past 5 years before we start doing multi-gigs. Its gonna be a sweet 16 party so im sure those things will be put to the test....

DJ stuart what do you mean dont mix L and R? I was thinking of switching the setting in serato to mono.....

If you run mono it should be all good. Unless the phase switch on the back of the subs are not set right. If you have active subs they should have a switch like this on the back www.mackie.com

^^^That's what i was talking about (phase).
And the L and R is simple. Sometimes if you have 2 subs conected to a stereo source you have to check that the L and R conections are connected the same way as the rest of the system (Mid range and high speakers).

www.djstuart.com.ar

Never ran mono before so forgive the stupid question, the L and R coming out of the crossover that goes into the amp are exactly the same right? One wont be louder than the other unless I mess with the settings on the crossover correct?

Im going to run 2 amps & each is going to power 2 subs, the L channel will power one set of subs & the R channel will power the other set of subs, Does anybody see any challenge with this?

your good with that.

we were setup with no wall behind, i had my usual 18's on each end, to the left was the inside wall & I setup my 2nd set of 18s right next to each other. During the early part of the evening I rotated the 18's & the ones against the wall sounded much better. From now on instead of having subs on each end im just gonna run them right up against a wall right next to each other.

Good ish man... thanks for following up.

When you say.."I had my usual 18's on each end". Do you mean each end of your setup/dj booth or each end of the dance floor?

LOL.......

I know you guys seen this pic before but my banner is 2x10 and holding it up is my 20 year old home made lights with mirrors (we call em column lights) those are about a foot & a half wide so by the time we have the speakers on both ends we can take up a good 18 feet so yeah the speakers are on the end of our setup and most times then not they are also on the end of the dance floor.

Gotcha... so there was a significant difference by coupling two subs against a wall and off-setting them to one side of the room... deeper harder bass ...yes??

I bet it was also better on your ears. I find everytime I get behind a sub, meaning the sub is not against a wall, all I hear is a nasty feedback sounding hollow thud sound... if that makes sense? LOL

the classic DJ placement is multiple subs together and preferably in a corner or against the wall—this offers the best efficiency for the subs; in laymans, by coupling the subs they essentially "work together." bass is nondirectional so if you split them up, you suffer standing waves around the room.

"Acoustic coupling" can increase output by 6db.

Coupling them against a wall gave a more equal sound for the entire area, It didnt matter where I stood the sound was the same no matter where you were, even when i stood in front of the subs you couldnt really tell it was coming from the subs unless you were really close.

With the 18's at there usual placement on each end, behind the system and directly in front of the subs was the loudest.

When i went outside of the garage there wasnt much difference from either set, remember how we talked about a room acting as a giant speaker enclosure & other parties if at hotel would complain.....


I must say however there was a point between the coupled subs & the sub closest to the couple subs that you would have gotten ear damage if you stayed there for to long. You could actually feel the pressure on your ear drums like something actually pushing it in, its hard to explain, the only time i felt anything louder was when firing a 45 during new years, the 45 was more of an instant effect, bam your deaf, the subs were more of a prolonged effect, imagine if your in an airtight room & you start making the room smaller & the air just starts pushing your ears in. It was truly INTENSE, although that would be the greatest if i could duplicate it on the dancefloor, I wouldnt do it because I wouldnt want to be liable for making people go deaf.

I just purchased 2 mackie 450 tops and 2 mackie sw1501's about a month ago. when you guys couple your subs do you ever put the tops above the subs ? (faster setup & teardown) or do you always put them on tripods and spread them out across each side of the stage.
Do any of you have pictures of your setups with the coupled Subs or offset sub placement ?

Also do you guys put all 4 speakers on the same electrical outlet ? I have been running 1 top 1 sub on 1 outlet then the other top and sub on a different outlet. For fear of popping the breaker during a event

I have heard these and I wasnt impressed much. As for you nate, I have that same mackie system and yes I do put the subs together with the 450's on top sometimes. I use tripods and put them on opposte sides of the room too. Bass is at its best when it is in the corner of a room. You put 2 1501's in a corner and you can listen/feel the difference. I always couple my subs together. Now I own the Jbl MRX subs. As far as an outside sub, check out the JTR Growler (horn loaded 12 inch) or the Electrovoice MTL1-X (double 18 subscoop). THE BEST OUTSIDE SUBWOOFER?? THE EV MTL-2.

Cool thanks. DjBMan (bman from efnet ??) Do you run your mackie system on one electrical wall outlet ?

Naw, im not on effnet. Most of the time, yes I do eventhough use one outlet. I don't like to but some of the places I have set-up at have bad electricity anyway. Right now, I use 2 mackie 450's and 2 non-powered jbl subs. I have put my amp (qsc plx 3602) and the 450's on one outlet before. You should be ok with the 1501's and the 450's. Now putting 1801's on one outlet might be something different.

minus the eventhough...

can someone take a picture of their sub placements?

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Coupling all your subs together will get your around a 2 + db increase in sound.

Have all your subs in the middle coupled, and then your tops on each side

If you look at most large scale concerts. They will have a line array on each side of the stage flown, and then subs coupled together all along the front of the stage.

I believe it's more than that (like +6db).

(+ 6dB)

"Coupling all your subs together will get your around a 2 + db increase in sound.

Have all your subs in the middle coupled, and then your tops on each side

If you look at most large scale concerts. They will have a line array on each side of the stage flown, and then subs coupled together all along the front of the stage'"

100% Agree.

On paper, and in sound reinforcement articles they say +6 db, which may be true in huge sub woofer arrays,
6 db is a HUGE amount of sound increase.
In my humble opinion with smaller rigs I think its more like 2-4 db

Got my 2 2000watt 21" custom built subs together facing the wall in a corner 1 foot away and I get as low as 26Hz and it is LOUD AS FUDGE!

some pictures would be nice. how do you know it goes down to 26hz ? what woofers are being used ?

Hello everyone. I've read this whole convo but I'm still confused about one thing. When you have subs all in one corner and Serato is outputing mono then you can run the subs off of left and right Chanel's right? Also the phase thing, you would want all the phase off right? In what applications would phase be useful? Thanks!!!

I have 2 QSC KW152's and 2 KW181's, if I set them apart instead of coupling the subs in the center, will my system sound any good?

It will be better to couple the subs. Always!!! Separating them will lose a little headroom with the subs and you will also face some dead spots on the dance floor.

correct, either one.



in most occasions the phase will stay off and never be used. but then the rare occasion subs will cancel frequencies for many Various reasons Location, room mode, bad wiring, bad cabling ect..... and play out of phase and the phase switch becomes useful.

The correct setting for a phase switch is "Whatever setting sounds best". That's all, don't overthink it....

GOT IT!

OK, I have read through this thread several times, but still have a question.

For a front firing sub placed in a corner, should the driver be directed at the wall or toward the listening area? Further, for a front firing, side ported sub, does the placement of the port make a difference to the sound? (Away from wall, toward listening area, toward wall, etc.)

In the end, is it just experimentation with the room that will determine what is best?

Thanks!

What is the name and model number of the sub that you use that has a side port ?

Both are options but the facing the wall should give you higher spl when done properly.

Thanks for the info and reply pdidy, as I am just a home user/hobbyist, I am using a BIC RTR-EV1200. It is a 12" 475 watt front firing sub, with a side port, and is equipped with phase and crossover controls. This is primarily a home theater sub, but I'm tinkering with it for music as well until I can justify the expense of a quality dedicated music sub. I'm playing around with the speaker placement and sound in the area I use as a "studio".

I don't want to waste anyone's time as I'm not a professional, but as I've become more involved in this hobby, I've gotten more interested in the technical aspects of sound, gain structure, etc.

Thanks again.

Thread revival.

Can anyone point in the direction of some data showing why it’s a bad idea to hang your directional subs (qsc e218) from the ceiling, and not have any on the floor, in a nightclub install.
(And on top of that completely horizontal pointed at the lights, lol)

I have a restaurant AV company trying to take the subs off the floor to “maximize floor space”

I thought it would have been more obvious to find

The QSC e218 is not a directional sub. Did you mean direct radiating? Subs flown as part of a line array are the norm these days but it requires a carefully calibrated setup. I prefer subs on the ground because you wanna feel the vibrations through the floor & I prefer old school stacks to line arrays but... any way take a look at this link

www.prosoundweb.com

One other consideration is if the ceiling / floor above or roof is not substantial you can get unwanted vibrations that add bass to the floor above or send it out of the building into the neighboring areas.

^^ I've read that article before... good read! Thanks again for posting it. ^^

I like that his discussion starts with "it depends". Reminds me of the quote "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong". So true.

What do you do with 4 subs.

1 a) Put them in the middle on the floor next to each other like this: ....
1 b) Put them in the middle on the floor on top of each other like this: ::
2 a) Put them on the sides of the dj booth on the floor next to each other like this: .. ..
2 b) Put them on the sides of the dj booth on top of each other like this: : :


?

I would couple all 4

The polarity switch on the back of the subs is used to switch the polarity of the sub. Use this switch top reverse the polarity of one of the subs that are placed next to each other, facing in opposite directions - one facing backwards (with the reversed polarity) and one facing the dance floor. This creates a cardioid sound pattern towards the dance floor thus focusing the bass there while minimising the bass towards the back.