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 Serato Video General Discussion
Uncompressed AVI's & MediaCoder
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Uncompressed AVI's & MediaCoder

DJ Vega 6:22 PM - 28 March, 2009
Hi Guys,

I seem to be running into a problem with MediaCoder. I'm using Sony Vegas 7 to make all of my video edits - I'm editing .vob's from Promo Only DVDs. Here is my problem...

I'm not too happy with the quality of .mp4's rendered straight out of Vegas using the Mainconcept encoder. Even with a bitrate of 3500 - 4000, the image just looks washed out to me. I am attempting to render my edits as uncompressed .avi files, then encode the .avi file to an .mp4 using MediaCoder. The uncompressed .avi out of Vegas is HUGE (~10 GB in some cases). When I try to encode the .avi to .mp4 in MediaCoder, it renders only about the first 30 seconds or so then stops. Does anyone else have this issue? In order to make this work, I can render as an .avi (NTSC DV) out of Vegas (the file is much smaller, ~ 1GB). However, the resulting quality is not as good as the original .vob as I think that some compression is taking place. Nonetheless, when using this method, then compressing to .mp4 in MediaCoder, the resulting .mp4 file looks MUCH BETTER than any .mp4 rendered straight out of Vegas. Here is a side by side comparison:

www.beat2beatdjs.com

However, I'm still not happy because I know that I am losing some quality when rendering to .avi (NTSC DV) out of Vegas. I wish that MediaCoder would be able to handle the uncompressed .avi files out of Vegas. The quality of the resulting .mp4's would be AMAZING.

Can anyone lend some insight into this issue? I have read that some of you are rendering uncompressed .avi's out of Vegas and using MediaCoder to create the .mp4's...but how are you doing it? I can't seem to get it to work.

Thanks,
Chris
a-swift 6:33 PM - 28 March, 2009
A lot of us are rendering to uncompressed files out of our editor and then compressing in our favourite compression program. I don't use MediaCoder so I'm not sure what's broken there. And yes, uncompressed files are huge.
a-swift 6:45 PM - 28 March, 2009
Is it possible mediacoder has an input file size limit?
DJ Vega 7:12 PM - 28 March, 2009
Yeah, I'm guessing that it must have an input limit, but I can't seem to find any info. I'm hoping that maybe itchie will see this thread - I think that he is using MediaCoder with uncompressed avi's.

Many thanks again in advance!
Dj Nyce 6:09 PM - 1 April, 2009
Vega, i always export out of nle's uncompressed. premiere for instance has a 'uncompressed microsoft avi'.

the biggest file i converted in mediacoder was about 2gb and it converted fine. all i can say is make sure your using the lastest version of mediacoder.
DJ Vega 6:38 PM - 1 April, 2009
Thanks Nyce!

If I export out of Vegas as an avi (NTSC DV), the file is only ~2 GB and it does convert OK - you are correct. However, I notice some degradation in the avi file. If I export as an avi (uncompressed) out of Vegas, the file is much larger (~6 GB or even larger) and these are not encoding in the latest version of Mediacoder.

Maybe I'm just being too damn picky on the quality, haha! The first method produces pretty nice results -- but they do not look as good as the direct vob to mp4 Mediacoder renders.
Dj Nyce 6:48 PM - 1 April, 2009
sometimes i'll got direct to avi (ntsc dv) then use mediacoder to go to h.264.

other times i'll go direct to h.264 in premiere. the quality is good to me.
D-Twizzle 9:07 PM - 1 April, 2009
when i export uncompressed it's 8GB+.
a-swift 12:45 AM - 2 April, 2009
all uncompressed files are not created equal. there's other things to consider such as bit depth, number of channels, and subsampling method. higher bit depth and better subsampling create larger uncompressed files.
iKutZ 8:32 AM - 2 April, 2009
There are lots of good intermediate codecs available which use lossless algorythms e.g. Lagarith is a great codec with AVI you get exaclty the same data and its reasonably quick. Far better option than uncompressed. Other codecs like Cineform are incredible wavlet algo's that keep 99.9% image fidelity and you can re-encode 10-20 generations before seeing any loss of info and its lightning fast! and compress data between 3-10 times as small (great intermediate to get footage into your encoder of choice).
DjBlaze 10:36 AM - 2 April, 2009
Not having any problem converting avi's in Mediacoder. Big ones..

Check your settings, go through each and every page and make sure u are right, heck PM me and I'll send you my preset.

I'm having no issues, quality is good enough coming out of vegas uncompressed
a-swift 2:00 PM - 2 April, 2009
Quote:
There are lots of good intermediate codecs available which use lossless algorythms e.g. Lagarith is a great codec with AVI you get exaclty the same data and its reasonably quick. Far better option than uncompressed. Other codecs like Cineform are incredible wavlet algo's that keep 99.9% image fidelity and you can re-encode 10-20 generations before seeing any loss of info and its lightning fast! and compress data between 3-10 times as small (great intermediate to get footage into your encoder of choice).


he's right there,.. cineform is one of the best options on pc. it's like the prores422 for pc. i don't think it's free though.
DJ Vega 1:46 AM - 3 April, 2009
I tried rendering one of my projects in Vegas as an avi using the Cineform HD Codec V2.5 that comes standard in Vegas 7.0. The quality is excellent! And the file was only 470 MB (compared to 7 GB when rendering as uncompressed avi).

However, Mediacoder will not render the file to mp4! Ahhhhhh...I must be missing something simple here...I am so close here and it is killing me! I don't think that Mediacoder supports the Cineform codec.

Blaze - I sent you a PM.

Thanks again for your help guys...I'm so close here :)
iKutZ 4:30 PM - 3 April, 2009
Try installing neo player from cinefrom... It should allow Media encoder o read the files and I think its free... Alternatively download a trial of cinform prospect HD/4K or somthing linke that and trial it for 15 days , if you like buy or dare I say the words RESET and TRIAL in the same sentence. Yeah I think neo player will cut it for you and think its free!
iKutZ 4:32 PM - 3 April, 2009
www.cineform.com

yeah the decoder doesn't expire
DJ Vega 6:08 PM - 3 April, 2009
iKutZ - u da man! Can't wait to get home and try this out...
Dj Nyce 11:34 PM - 3 April, 2009
vega i'll upload my mediacoder settings

audio: nero lc-aac, stereo, 48khz, normalized, target bitrate 160kbps
video: Two-Pass, 2500kbps, h.264, x264
picture: 640x480, Frame Rate=source, Aspect Ratio: 4:3, deinterlacing: yadif mode0
x.264 keyframe min: 1 keyint: 25

www.mediafire.com
Rebelguy 12:05 AM - 4 April, 2009
Quote:
vega i'll upload my mediacoder settings

audio: nero lc-aac, stereo, 48khz, normalized, target bitrate 160kbps
video: Two-Pass, 2500kbps, h.264, x264
picture: 640x480, Frame Rate=source, Aspect Ratio: 4:3, deinterlacing: yadif mode0
x.264 keyframe min: 1 keyint: 25

www.mediafire.com


Is that the highest audio setting? Never used mediacoder before but want to try.
Rebelguy 12:05 AM - 4 April, 2009
What exactly is Cineform prospect HD/4K?
a-swift 12:55 AM - 4 April, 2009
Quote:
What exactly is Cineform prospect HD/4K?


it's a codec like any other. 4k i believe refers to the hd resolution it is aimed at, i'm assuming. i've never actually used the codec though. this is a professional quality codec, i know that though.
Rebelguy 2:35 AM - 4 April, 2009
How would you use it though. Is it standalone? Would it offer better quality output then what we are all using now?
a-swift 2:41 AM - 4 April, 2009
Quote:
How would you use it though. Is it standalone? Would it offer better quality output then what we are all using now?


nah. cineform and prores422 are like "working" codecs. as you round trip files through different applications, you need a codec that can go through many generations without loss.

if you need to take a file into vegas, after effects and then motion, you probably don't want to do that in it's native format, like VOB or worse, mp4. if you modify a vob in after effects and save it as a vob, the new vob will be considerably less sharp. now take that degraded vob back into your editor. not good. imagine doing that 5 or 6 times.
iKutZ 7:15 AM - 4 April, 2009
Quote:
How would you use it though. Is it standalone? Would it offer better quality output then what we are all using now?


Actually if I remember rightly it was the only codec that run 2 lots of 720p footage in VDJ and scrubbed really well. Not saying to use it as a performance codec but I havn't done codec performance testing for a little while, so it maybe be worth a revisit. I'm personally waiting for the new cineform releases that are CS4 compliant as thy are for me a worthy investment.
Dj Nyce 8:21 AM - 4 April, 2009
Rebelguy, the highest with nero and ct aac is 320kbps. with faac it's 256.
Rebelguy 10:16 AM - 4 April, 2009
Quote:
Rebelguy, the highest with nero and ct aac is 320kbps. with faac it's 256.


Thanks for the info.
Rebelguy 10:16 AM - 4 April, 2009
Quote:
Quote:
How would you use it though. Is it standalone? Would it offer better quality output then what we are all using now?


Actually if I remember rightly it was the only codec that run 2 lots of 720p footage in VDJ and scrubbed really well. Not saying to use it as a performance codec but I havn't done codec performance testing for a little while, so it maybe be worth a revisit. I'm personally waiting for the new cineform releases that are CS4 compliant as thy are for me a worthy investment.


Thank you also.