Never max out the master output.

On an analog mixer, the gains/trims are amplifier controls, and the channel faders function only as attenuators, so the proper method of level control from a signal flow point of view is to max the channel faders, set trims/gains to unity gain, and the set the master output of the mixer where you want it (unity for flat sound, +1 or +2dB if you're trying to color the sound with distortion from the mixer.) Use the channel faders for volume control while mixing.

On a digital mixer, it doesn't really matter which control you max and which you use for level control because it's not affecting any analog signal path.

EQ is another whole ball of wax. Some DJs feel like it should always be flat, so the tune sounds like the original artists intended. Some don't. Personally, I never play with flat EQ settings.

to setup properly-

1. eqs all flat- middle postion /0db
2. keep channel fader down and master out level at zero.
3. switch to channel you want level to the headphone/cue.
4. turn up the trim/gain on this channel until the headphone monitor led's are showing 0db(just on the top of the green), now this channel is INPUTTING correct level.
5. Now to setup output level- put up channel fader to max, then turn up the master knob until this outputs 0db also(now whatever you put in will be going out)..ALWAYS have master in this postion.

Sorted- each time your cueing a record, turn up trim/channel gain till it shows 0db in the headphone/monitor leds and it will be the correct level to mix into track before and correct for going out to amps/rigs recording.

I didn`t understand step 5 can u rephrase that for me plz?

what a strange thread. surely your eq and gain positions are dependant on the source signals?

s

you want the same signal going out from mixer to amp as what is comin in from turntable(dont you, you shud ;) )

so , once you have the correct level comin in (set from channel trim/gain to 0db) you now want this same sig level going to amp.

to do this turn up the master out until it matches the cue volume indicators(0db in = 0db out)...now every time you get a new track on all you have to do is cue it up to 0dbin headphone monitor display and it will be correct volume when you bring it in the mix...

Its the first thing you should learn when dj IMO.

and your master out stays in this postion always and all you change is the trim/gain on the actual channels.

yes read again....you change the trim on the channels to cue it up to 0db so dependand on volume of record/source these do change...

what shouldnt change is the master out knob once it has been set correctly.

some mixers like the rane empath have unity gain on the master out so you just have that all the way to max and set the input trim/gain on each channel to give you 0db.


Its all basic setting up the levels stuff.

oh and eqs obv change once your in the mix/whateva to make em sound nice with the other track or to take all the bass out for a bit before wacking it back in and sending the crowd or yer mummy berserk on the dancfloor or whilst shes doing the cleaning

;)

nice to see more folk from the uk on board nowadays :)

What do you guys do to adjust for differences in the mix of each song, or the way it was mastered? (mixing old song with new song) I usually just try to make the vocal level match. I also try to start out at lower volumes so that I can go up more without clipping.

For me, the channels are fully up and trim is usually at 12 oclock. I use the trim to even out the channel outputs before they go live thru the master. the EQ is set at 12 oclock unless its a song that has a low output in the high, mid or bass region. In my opinion, its not good to have the trim up all the way because if you have a song that's lower than the other, how would u turn it up if everything on the mixer is already up?

in serato i use autogain.

in real vinyl i use the decibel meter when im cueing up the next track and set it to read 0db(or slightly below)which is the same setting used for every track before that hence my mix/set is all at the correct level and is unclipped/distorted.

and your master out should match what comes in....0db also

i must add it took me about 2yrs till someone showed me how to set levels so your sets where all the same volume between tacks...

before that id bring in a new track and wonder why it was louder that the one playing hence sounding WRONG

Step 1 - Read up on gain structure.

Step 2 - Set up your system using knowledge gained in step 1.

I still dont get it. It could have something to do with my Vestax slim mixer having imprecise meters. Whenever I mix a 90s track and a 2000+ track, I always have to turn the 90s track up a lil, because of the differences in mastering. So I try to make the modern tracks a lil under 0db so I can turn up the older tracks when I start to mix them in.

Arise, Lazarus!

This is an important subject, so I will clarify it for the forums.

As opposed to 0dBFS on a digital recorder meter just meant to show you where hard brick wall clip is, 0dB on traditional audio meters and most audio meters on digital mixers for any live use is where you want the middle of the dynamic range region of the track to be bouncing at.

The reasons some tracks need more input stage or pre-fade level on the trim/gain knob is because the meter is showing peaks, not RMS. A more dynamic track, such as prior to the Loudness Wars when times were more simple and music was more musical, needs higher amplitude and thus higher peaks in order to sound as loud overall as the more compressed post-Loudness Wars track. This is why tracks that are more dynamically compressed and if also set bouncing evenly around the 0dBVu mark will sound about as loud as the more dynamic track that's peaking higher but still also bouncing around 0dBVu mark -- the compressed track doesn't require as much amplitude to sound as loud. That compressed track is less dynamic and needs a lower level because its average peaks over time are higher. Remember, with RMS you're accounting for both the quiet content and the loud content together; little peaks and big peaks throughout the song -- the dynamics.

This is the whole point of having the lower 0dBVu marker on a peak audio meter compared to a top maximum 0dBFS clip digital mark, because it's hard to show real-time RMS. Simply telling the user where the mixer begins to clip at on the inputs and the outputs is not enough info, though that is one purpose of audio metering. On many digital mixers, that hard clip is the top red. You should not be exactly right below that clip point for every track, though, as 1) your loudness will vary from song to song due to varying dynamics... not to mention 2) you have no headroom for effects that will inevitably reduce RMS due to more complicated, layered sound.

The general advice for recording samples and simple instruments is for peaks not to go intentionally higher than -6dBFS, but you would often be below that. So on a Pioneer, your effective peaks on program content (pre-mixed music) would be somewhere, anywhere, in the yellow LEDs. Which one should vary track to track due to your attempt to get the average peak and valley around that zero on the dBVu meter. Peaking at the 4 or 7 depending on the song is perfectly reasonable. The 10 LED is your accidental safety that does not distort, but gives a little headroom prior to the 14/15dBVu or Over LED.

As for fader positioning, proper mixing technique is to set the master out at unity (where what goes out is the same level as what goes in to the output stage), and if only one pre-mixed program track (i.e. commercial music) is playing, then that track's fader should also be at unity (where what goes out of that channel to the master stage is the same level as the channel's input). If you have more than one song playing live at a time (and not during some quiet bridge or outro), then neither of the track's faders should be as high as unity if the EQs aren't also cut selectively.

If you're having difficulty telling where unity is on various stages of a mixer just using the meters, you should be able to double check using the cuing system and comparing to the prgm content in your headphones. The meters and the sound levels in the headphones should all agree from channels to master program.

EQs should be centered for best sound quality. Mixer EQs are not an appropriate permanent solution for compensating for the house sound system deficiencies, such as the sub amp being too low or the tweeter arrays being too hot. For one, long term misuse can burn out drivers if you are pushing a particular band into a system that is calibrated and voiced for average musical content. No amount of limiting, thermal or peak or both, will fully prevent that. You'd need cab handling specs many times what you'd normally be putting into them to safely let DJs do whatever they want for as long as they want.

EQs also introduce group delay and other phasing problems, which will defeat the purpose of 24dB Linkwitz-Riley crossovers (that have matched phasing at the crossover band, which is why they are used) and proper speaker delays having been already set on the house system (so sound from the cabs arrives to listeners' ears when it ought to).

When it comes to EQs, they should be for momentary artistic purposes and for slightly matching tracks. And unless it's a last resort because you've run out of input stage gain, do not use the EQs as replacements for touching the trim/gain knobs, either.

Know where your unities are at on the faders and pots. Don't abuse the EQs. Pay attention to your meters. Don't just assume red is bad or yellow is bad. On some mixers, 0dBVu is the only yellow on the mixer! Pay attention to those numbers, first, then determine the colors are corresponding to the numbers so you know where you should be running at. The colors are there for quick monitoring or for in the dark, not as a replacement for the meaning next the them. There's no universal arrangement to how those colors match up with the dBVu meter. Again, use the numbers to get a sense of what the colors will tell you for when you are in the dark or can only glance quickly.

A note on Pioneer digital mixers' channel meters: the meters are in the digital domain, but the analog inputs trim/gain stages (and corresponding knob controls) are before these digital domain meters and the EQs that also are in the digital domain. So if the EQs are down, it will give a false impression of more headroom on the channel analog inputs. It's just something to be aware of, rather than a justification for running with your EQs up all the time.

Interestingly, some DJ software is beginning to autogain based on the analyzed RMS of the tracks, rather than just peaks.

"that will inevitably reduce RMS" should say increase

I've already addressed the issues with always having your EQs tweaked all the time.

I don't know what you're going on about on "color the sound with distortion". No where in any studio or DJ mixer environment is that warranted or advisable.

Plenty of mixers have unity less than max on their faders. It's usually marked with a "U" or a bold line.

You set the gains/trims to maximize S/N ratio along the signal path. On a digital mixer like the Pioneer DJM800 to DJM2000 series and an analog input signal, this is all pre-AD conversion for that very purpose. Leaving the gains/trims at unity for every input and signal also completely defeats the purpose of PFL cue level matching. Unity on the Pioneer faders is max. Unity on the master out is less than max. Some other brands put unity on the master out at max. In my opinion, this makes a lot more sense and I'll explain why, particularly for digital mixers.

Now, the cue routing system Pioneer uses allows you to spoof a studio style arrangement where you put the master at max (0dB) and then 7 on the faders becomes unity. This is not at all a safe arrangement to be running it for a bunch of different DJs working in the dark, though. Pioneer should have had both unity at the top of the fader and unity at max on the master out. They didn't, so the only way around it is either to run low residue plastic studio tape down across the fader plate so DJs can't go over 7 on the fader cap lines, or you stick the master out at unity and cover it up with like a Neutik cap or something and tape.

If you're using the unit at home all by your lonesome, obviously you can run it any way you want. In a live sound system environment, though, their flexibility is a recipe for disaster with a 12-18dB of available boost at some point asymmetrically in the signal path -- at the channels or at the master. That's an entirely improper manner to run a sound board such that one section can be completely fine and another part of the signal flow clipped off the meter. Nothing you do downstream is going to resolve that. You want the channels and the master to show the same levels with the fader at unity, and you don't want DJs flicking channel faders when scratching or something and smacking the faders way the hell up further.

And, at least when running analog inputs on the Pioneers, it's absolutely possible to clip the path at the input stage or the output stage (analog or digital, both are converted to fixed point prior to output). Floating point is a purely DSP math trick for getting nearly unlimited headroom, but AD, DA, and sample rate conversion can't use it. Other companies over the years have set the analog inputs to fixed gain on their digital mixers and with the gain/trims just being digital domain PFL channel volumes, but Pioneer did not do that. The metering system, as I previously mentioned, makes this a bit precarious versus pre-DAC metering... hence the reason Pioneer finally added "clip" indicators that work completely separate from the channel meters.

Oh, and there are mixers out there with proper unity on the master out actually at max on the knob/fader. A&H and Alesis come to mind.

"versus pre-DAC metering" should have said pre-ADC metering.

most higher end mixers, the master is just an attenuator and doesn't add gain.

Rane and Pioneer come to mind

Not on A&H. Not on Denons. The DJM-800 master knob is purely in the digital domain, and its unity is not at max, unless you believe unity on the faders is actually just 7.

I don't know why I was saying that like I was contradicting you. I meant to say that A&H and Denon are like that with unity at max on the master and the channels. The Pioneer is in the digital domain and either its unity is not at max or its channel faders' unity is at 7. I prefer unity on the master out at max. I don't like the extra boost, but there are plenty of high end mixers with unity beyond max. That's actually not a rarity on high end studio mixers, but I don't think it's appropriate on a DJ mixer, even if some of the best DJ mixers I've heard had boost over unity on either the channel volumes, the master out, or both.

+1 for unity at master

Ok, I was told by a dude who did sound engineering up in Maine that my DJ mixer settings and mixer settings should be at unity and the speakers (powered) should be at max. Does this sound right? He advised to control the volume variances on the mixer going out to the speakers and not from the DJ mixer.

If all this is too confusing for anyone here's the practical version:
Adjust yer gains till the meters touch the yellow.
Put yer channel fader all the way up when playing song.
Adjust the master till its full volume.
If the master isn't around somewhere between 11 and 3 o'clock then adjust the anp/speaker (or mixing board if there is one) volumes so that the master on the DJ mixer can be brought into that range.

It's true some DJ mixers have masters that max at unity so your master can be up higher, but if you don't know if it is, yer better off not maxing it, better safe then sorry.
As far as I know (I've been wrong before) most DJ mixers have faders that are at unity when all the way up. If not then it's close enough that yer fine to max the channel fader. If you don't max it then you risk bringing up the noise floor and increasing the chance of feedback.

Amps should be wherever is safe for the speakers to be driven and the audience still wants the sound at when the mixer levels are as high as they can go (that's a test condition and worst-case, not normal operating). Listen for driver distortion. Look at amp ratings v speaker ratings. Going past half the speaker rating might be fine for peaks, but is not ok regarding thermal limits. Speakers can be fried with live production content and bad connections from just a fraction of a speaker's peak rating! Make sure your cabs (inherently or from sheer numbers) are more than enough for the application, and don't run them to their rated limits.

Occasionally baby-sit and watch DJs to make sure they are at the very least not running the channel and master meters up to the top.

A digital mixer WITHOUT a compressor/limiter is a brick wall limiter that will dissuade further compression into 0dBFS.

If the mixer or the pre-amplification chain has a compressor/limiter, turn it OFF. Those are tools for producers or live bands with healthy headroom (more of the way more and bigger speakers than you need theme) and need someone to babysit a console and live mixing board the whole night. Leaving a pre-amplification compressor/limiter in the hands of a DJ is a recipe for cooking woofers... yum!

ALWAYS have the limiter turned ON for amp output stages. An amp output stage clipping creates horrendous ultrasonic harmonics far beyond amp rated power that will destroy tweeters, not to mention cause the amp to eventually shut down for safety.

If the amp output limiter is triggering, turn the amp down! And jebus help you if you’re running into speakers near their rated limits when that’s happening. Again, with amp output limiters, you want big/more speakers than the amps can put out.

"Adjust the master till it's full volume"

By 'full volume' I would redefine that as the master meter being the same as the channel meter. That's a very specific spot around 2:15 o'clock or so on the DJMs. Yes, it depends on the mixer, but it's easy enough to see on the mixers that have unity less than max -- the master meter changes with the master volume and does not match at max. Hence, you put it where it does match. There are some that have unity at max on the master (Denon, A&H, etc) and there are some that even have just a basic attenuation on the master that doesn't even affect the master meter... really bad idea for a DJ mixer, but again, can be set by sound guy and covered up to coincide with the proper worst-case levels for the sound system.

On mixers, if the meters are very responsive then bounce the signal symmetrically around the 0dBVu mark on the channel and master meters. Just pointing out a color to aim for is meaningless since the color schemes are different from brand to brand and model to model in some cases. On Pioneers, don't go into the red intentionally, though you do have at least the bottom red LED as a safety. There are other mixers where red is the entire range past 0dBVu that you should intentionally be bouncing into. Using the 0dBVu as your center of dynamic range, however, will always keep you from clipping a mixer with all musical content. Set that system, though, preparing for the worst!

If the meters are not responsive and bouncy, just keep the meters well clear of the top meter LEDs and REMEMBER, not all music has the same dynamic range. Keep some headroom in reserve for those very dynamic tracks that were not the victim of the Loudness Wars.

If there is a live mixing board between the DJ mixer and the sound system. Not actually necessary in permanent nightclub installs with digital DJ mixers, though. If the DJ mixer has a simple post-master-meter attenuation knob for the master out, then you send a 1khz test signal though the DJ mixer with its gain/trims setting the signal at a reference level (say, 0dBVu on the meter), its channel fader at unity, the amps down or off, and with the live sound board at unity on both its gain/trims and channel faders, you would then adjust such a DJ mixer's completely passive post-meter master out knob until the live sound board's meters also show zero. Then cover/tape that f---er up and don't let anyone touch that DJ mixer master knob again!

Here you go-
serato.com

Floating point is entirely a DSP thing. Doesn't prevent distortion at ADC, DAC, or sample rate conversion to the digital output where at each of these stages it must become fixed point. If there is a compressor/limiter right before one of these, guess what... that's a form of distortion, though it is unfortunately for live DJ use a more pleasing form that is more likely to be abused.

"Now, you'll probably find that you can turn down your amp/speakers which will bring the signal to noise ratio down and get you a better overall sound."

Sort of. First, he's misspeaking when saying decreasing S/N ratio is a good thing. Second, getting to put the master out at unity rather than less than unity hypothetically can increase S/N ratio depending on the type of mixer and its output stage design. Third, turning the amps down does not inherently change S/N ratio.

"All LEDs should be running in the hot yellow.. on any mixer or within any dj software... just don't run into the red:)"

And he's wrong about not running into the red. Don't run to the top of the meters and try to bounce musical content around the 0dBVu mark symmetrically. Tascam, for instance, puts red in the entire range from past 0dBVu up to the top of the meter. You can't just make a blanket statement on what the colors mean. The colors are defined by the dBV numbers next to them, not the other way around.

Live sound mixing boards are for bands and with a person at the board the whole night. Not actually necessary or optimal with DJing. I don't want someone turning up quiet break downs. If you need someone adjusting the levels all the time with pre-produced music content, then your sound system needs to be bigger or you need to set it up conservatively. A live "producer" should be doing the role of adjusting the levels already. A live sound mixing board is in a DJ situation is potentially just another piece of extraneous gear in the signal path. Newer digital ones accepting a digital signal are less of an issue, but they're not technically required anymore in an nightclub environment if the DJ mixer, especially one of these newer digital ones, is properly set. Furthermore, no analog live sound board is capable of transmitting the full sound quality of these new digital DJ mixers.

I would even suggest that the digital DJ mixer should be the centerpiece of a nightclub, and if there are some live performers and vocalists run into a live mixing board, that such a board should be run INTO the DJM. After all, the DJ/producer would be at the DJ mixer, anyway, and would want to control both.

I realize there are festivals that have both styles of acts, though, and a sound guy at a console in which case that is not practical or optimal.