I think the only real problem in Twitch is the soundcard. At first, I thought the unit was broken, as the output volume was apparently 1/10th the NS7's. The sound has a "boxy" quality, too: I really don't undersrand how DJ blogs reviewers could have overlooked this huge "con".

With the VCI-300 experience, that led to mkII, this seems like a bad mistake from Novation part.

This said, having enough analog gain left on the club mixer will surely allow for professional results; too bad that nowadays gain stages are often cranked full clockwise by poor DJs, leaving no room left for adjusting Twitch volume to the program level. this means that Twitch simply isn't suitable for that type of "fully cranked up" situation.

THIS!

ok, i wouldn't mind using gear with a lower output if I still had the headroom.. but playing at 5am after a system has been cranked all night, and already totally in the reds by retarded dj's, something which happens all too often in the real world, a product like this is pretty much useless.

unless i brng a small mackie desk or something else to boost the signal

really bummed with the sound level/quality. twitch is being returned. definitly not a pro product. such a shame. rly fun to play with... but thats just what it is... a toy

Agreed, I had to put a little Mackie mixer in line to get sufficient gain.

fully agree regarding the low level but cant say i noticed too much noise even at 100% master gain (is there any other with twitch...) or such boxy sound, but i will compare its sound with alternatives i have around like vci 300 or audiofire4 (this one kills twitch and vci regarding level, i already tried to use it as amp but found it to be noisy on the inputs)



right on the spot, i think that, as usual, they never point the problems they find because they fear they will not get further gear from that manufacturer if they publicly report any problems
(makes little sense to send any pre production units to such ppl then, but what do i know...)



this is the real shame of the situation,
it could indeed be a revolutionary product that seems to have been purposely crippled (serato.com)

one possible workaround that could actually provide some benefits is this pre amp another user mentioned (serato.com) but besides not being cheap at all it also diminishes the lighter portability of an all-in-one box

Huh? Seriously you think that's the only real problem with Twitch? Have you checked the Twitch support section lately? serato.com

Numerous issues and BIG ones at that (including horrible sound output).

I think most if not all of the many reported bugs are somewhat fixable with software update and goodwill from dev team
The sound problem is probably the only one that has no real solution (I do wish some wonder firmware update could sort this issue buy can't say I really believe anything will be done about it)

Today I noticed the twitch output seems to be limited (hard) to -3db, while vci is able to go over this value

Software is fixable, a weak soundcard is not--->only REAL problem

I agree with cerla soundcard it is what it is this gonna be a problem from people coming from vci300 1st edition.

It still can be a software issue(being optimistic). Once you boost the output the sound quality is fine. I used Twitch at a pool party recently, first time I had it out of the house, and had the audio output and quality issues but once I put a mixer between Twitch and the amp, the quality was excellent. I hope they can boost the output.

I agree a mixer helped boost the signals,plus it cleans the sound,and u get a booth output. Any pa system is going to have a master mixing board no?

Ahhh, gotchya. Understood. Still can't believe they got so much wrong on Twitch out of the gate after all the hype and delayed release time.

When I connected Twitch to a Rane Empath the Twitch output had to be 100% max'd out and the Empath's input gain had to be turned all the way up too just to get the level of the channel that Twicth was coming in on anywhere close to that of CDJs and SL that were all set at 12 o'clock - and even then it was still softer and smaller sounding than CDJs or SL. I would've gladly paid whatever it would've cost more for Novation to have added a power supply so the damn thing would be usable. Now it's just an expensive paperweight/toy. So dissapointed.

Feel like I've got "SUCKER" stamped across my forehead. Losing faith in this whole ITCH thing fast for professional use.

Sucks that no one from Novation saying anything about this issue. At least the Vestax guys jump in the threads...

Yeah, ALARMING and very telling about how they do biz. Insert burn me once, burn me twice saying here. Trust I and hopefully many others will be very vocal about this on the innerwebs.

not just you, man
all of us that dared to try a new product while trusting a brand we thought we could rely on (serato, not novation...)
it seems in not so near future even m-audio or hercules will have their branded itch controllers

Thanks for all of your comments, it's really important for us to hear your experiences as you are the guys we're making this gear for!

We did a lot of research when designing Twitch. This involved talking to many DJs & performers from enthusiasts up to Pro level. The conclusion that was drawn was that people wanted a balance of features, and we designed Twitch in order to meet as many of these as possible. One of the top level requests was portability and a fully bus-powered controller/interface. The other thing that came at the top of the wish list was a high quality audio output - Twitch has an impressive signal to noise ratio (significantly better than the USB powered DJ controller interfaces that we measured) addressing the demand for a high quality audio output. Although the audio level may be lower than mains powered interfaces, the decision was made to offer the best possible audio performance where in most situations you can make up the gain elsewhere, rather than provide a higher output audio signal with compromised quality, high noise and distorted output. We have worked very hard to maximise the power resources from USB to provide a control surface with around 100 LEDs, coupled with a high audio quality interface.

Thanks again for all your responses.

The Novation development team.

this is the result of such decision:





was it also a top request not to offer ac option to provide for a matched output with industry levels (aka, cdj, rane sl, ni audio dj, etc, basically the gear that is more probable to be connected along twitch) ?

it also seems you have confused the demand for a "high quality audio output" with "we dont care if audio level is so low we have to raise gains along the signal path to a point where sound fidelity is basically lost"

you need to keep in mind that you, novation,
are the newcomers to the digital dj arena,
you dont set any references, you follow them and only then you try to innovate where u can but without compromising on any critical issues as you just did on this product

the "the guys you're making this gear for" are complaining en masse about this product subpar audio output, you should think about this instead of feeding us empty boilerplate arguments

I guess a recall is out of the question.

wow, not even me, being harsh as i have been, ever though about a recall
but that is probably because i am too naive and still believe that maybe this ppl will step down from their pedestal and cook some firmware magic that uncripples the units
(at least remove the -3db limit on it, wtf???
not speaking about serato limiter, no matter how hard as i push twitch output never goes above -3db when fed into a metered input)

this is i keep complaining and dismissing void arguments that just justify laziness in product development, the day i finally give up is the day i put my twitch for sale
(afaik, here in brazil there are not that many around as it is not available yet, so should not be hard to get rid of it)

@The Novation development team:

can you guys please reply to a simple question that i am sure a lot of current owners are desperate to know the answer:

is there any chance that a firmware update can provide a higher audio output or is the current level the only one we can expect out of our units ?

i am sure many users will appreciate your transparency in this matter so they can make a informed decision while they can still return their fresh units

main reasons i ask this:
it seems something like this was done before with xone:dx,
but if i am not mistaken, it seems in that case output was too loud, go figure...

according to the twitch programmer reference the leds can have 16 different brightness levels so i suppose some power could be saved by dimming them a little, just not so sure if there is the needed control over the soundcard thru the firmware...

I talked with Lopazz on facebook about this problem, the big dj has made the marketing video with twitch, and he talked to me he warned novation about the this when he was playing with the pre release product, and novation tell that the final product will released with this error corrected, but is clearly that dont happened, so he talk says tome that what Nonnus question, that he Loppazzz expected this will be corrected with a software updatde....

So whats the chances ?

Now, this a good a productive discussion, because I was realllllllly about to buy the brother "Twitch". But reading this...!!! Thanks guys for your leap/experience/mishaps with Twitch and really want to thank Novation Supporting team for insight and reply. I will NOT be buying that as a mobile dj unit.

The anti etic of Novation/Serato makes me hungry alot, becasue one of the targets of this product is mobile djs, and that can be used good with this, plug direclty in powered systems

correction: and that canT be used good with this, plug direclty in powered systems

The silence from Novation on these issues is deafening.

NOVATION/SERATO i TALKIN WITH YOU

Novation never says in the specifictions this is not recomended use twitch direclty on powered speakers, alerting that doing this you will have muuuch MUUUUUCH lower output as everybody saying

Now with alot of complaints, Novation started say that you need to use a mixer, but even using with a mixer, the problem is not solved.

Im definitly will not buy this equipament anymore, and sore i will be tell for eveybody to not buy because this problem.

In brazil this equiapments is to much expensive, i dont want see people that had a really hard work to accumulate money for buy this product and be sad and feel they passed to bring

Is clear for me the Novation prefer loose some efficience on this product for low the prices and sell more products, and this loose of efficience is compensate by HYPE and MARKETING, dont try fool us with hype and marketing ! i former in Marketing and Publicity UNiversity, IIIII DRIIIIIIINNKKKK YOUR WATHER !!! HAHA i know whats up in your mind about that, lower costs, cut the quality and sell the product like the most quality Hyped and Marketing this product !

And i know the efficience of the CONTRA PROPAGANDA TO ! :) that i will do a lot of CONTRA PROPAGANDA and clear the reality about this product, to you apologies and correct the problem.

Well both Novation and Serato have laid out official responses in your threads. In short it looks like this is a portable $500 controller that is not suited to insert into a club environment otherwise rocking CDJs etc.
Looks like its been aimed outside of the pro club DJ or at least their design hasn't properly considered the limits in boosted channel gain in a club (where I suspect they are EQd not expecting to have to provide massive gain on one channel off a device a DJ brings in)

Will there be a Twitch Pro version for clubs then?

Huh? When/where has Novation responded to the output issue? Please show me because I've seen nothing yet.

Regarding "Looks like its been aimed outside of the pro club DJ" — not true. Have you watched Novation's promotional videos for Twitch? They specifically advertise Twitch is for Pro/Club applications.

If you haven't seen it yet, watch: Watchwww.youtube.com

PLUS, after you watch Novation's promo video, then read this.

There is my full conversation about that

há 7 horasFilipe Gerdulli
Hey Lopazz, im from Brazil, love your work man ! keep rockin !
I want ask something for you if not a nuisance..

I know oyu are using sometimes Novation Twitch, i thinkin about buy one, but i check there are a lot of discussion about the lower output's twitch in the Serato Forum.

This equipament dont came to Brazil yet, i dont see you on D-edge i know you used twitch here, you had any problems with this lower output twitch's in their gigs, what do you think this equipament will work in a soundsystem not so good dimensioned like the d-edge's soundsystem ?

Thanks alot if you can anwser this for me, is a good way for me to research about this equipament it will be very expensive equipament in Brazil so i need to now this things that worryme ! THAANKSSSS MAN, keep rockin with your wondeful work !!

há 7 horasLopazz Stef
well, mine is fine...i think they will work on the software ?? i asked my guys at serato and novation - as soon as i got an answer i will let you know !!!! cheeeers bro !!!


há 7 horasFilipe Gerdulli
The Novation/Serato guys respond that, this happens because the hardware dont have power supply, only the supply with usb the outpot volume is much lower, a lot of guys on forum talk they have to up a lot the gain level on the mixer to compensate the lower volume output ? and work with twitch without a mixer to do that will became a problem, you've had this problem ?

há 7 horasFilipe Gerdulli
kinda twitch had a limitations volume in nothing more like -3db you know.

há 7 horasFilipe Gerdulli
okay, sorry if fumbled you there with this qustion, i will love you let me now about that if you talk with Novation guys, cheers man !

há 7 horasLopazz Stef
i told the novation guys many times...i only have a pre-release -model...they said at the end it will be louder...we have to wait what comes with a software update...
i never use twitch without a mixer...always with a mixer...

after watching that promo vid it's clear why they went with bus power,

so you can dj in your garden eating cherries

So we just want a response from Novation or Serato if this problem can be solved with a firmwire update ITS A FACT IS A PROBLEM,

Like your pro dj had you use to marketing the product want that same response...

I'm in my hammock now eating cherries whilst posting. Their delicious.

"They're" damn no edit function !@%^#$%$#$#%^&*()

Exactly. I don't know if I should be asking for my money back or sitting tight on an update. I know all the problems (accessing stored loops, killing auto-cue, swipe mode defualt etc.) can all be software updates, but no idea about the getting more output signal.

Curious, how does my SL4 provide plenty of output when it's only powered by USB?

So Novation/Serato we are waiting you respond that question

this product dont came to Brazil yet, but i doing my function with brazilain public spreading a lot this information, and talking with stores that import this product to be carefull and much of then already know this information and are worry alot about this, some of this guys tell me this is will be a really pain in the ass !

OiiiO (closest I can get to your name man!) - I wasn't having a go at you, agree the market hasn't highlighted this stuff, just stating where we seem to be with this. Novation have responded in this thread.

I see it now. Thanks.

I still don't get why on earth Novation would choose not to allow a power supply to be used with it so the unit can be used in all environments. The decision Novation made to cripple the unit to the point that's it's unusable for pro users in pro environments is mind-blowing.

Even Lopazz that is the name who made a video publicity with serato/novation want the response if there will be a update via firmwire to correct this lower signal in output, and if Novation or Serato are smart they will responde that in this thread

I gotta believe pro users would've gladly paid extra to be able to use Twitch in pro environments lol

the sl4 doesnt require the power as its not got all these lights going on




unless the update dims the lights or disables them no update will be able to give the unit more power then it's currently getting

Neil - Got a few questions for you.

1) Was Novation not aware of the Vestax VCI-300MK1 ITCH controller problem where the output was not adequate enough and the negative response was so great from ITCH customers that they had to release a MK2 version to correct it?

2) If this was a design goal: "One of the top level requests was portability and a fully bus-powered controller/interface. The other thing that came at the top of the wish list was a high quality audio output" how do these two goals co-exist? If the audio output isn't loud enough to be used in pro environments, quality doesn't really matter now does it lol. Why wasn't a power receptacle included (like the VC!-300MK2) so that WHEN more output is needed the user could simply plug a power supply in? Twitch would still be able to be fully BUS powered for normal use wouldn't it?

3) If price point had to be met, why did Novation not decide to have a power supply as an optional accessory? That way users who need to enhanced performance could simply purchase one and start using Twitch where they need it to function in club environments. That way users who don't need the extra output wouldn't be taxed with the extra cost. Rane took this same approach with the SL1 years back.


One of the top level requests was portability and a fully bus-powered controller/interface. The other thing that came at the top of the wish list was a high quality audio output

How does not having a power suppl

Right, but I can run ITCH w/ Twitch AND SL w/ SL4 both together simultaneously on my MacBook Pro with no probs so this doesn't add up (at least for me on my equipment).

??? It's another USB port

So if Twitch had dual USB inputs all probs would be solved?

One for audio, one for lights?

Nevermind, this is silly. Novation F'dup. Period. All they had to do was add a simply power receptacle and we wouldn't be having this convo.

not to mention recent macs have higher power usb ports that may not be present in pc machines so cannot be taken for granted while defining specs or you might be able to get everything working ok on a mac and having problems on a pc machine

Once again, the question begs, why can't just ONE of these damn manufacturers ever get it right?

Seems like they always get 90% to the finishline and just give up.

:facepalm:

More like one for volume boost, the other for everything else. That would be cool

wise words

waste a usb port just for power ?
i am sure a simple plug is probably cheaper to implement than another usb one

simple power plug

mmm... I'm in heaven with my V7s, the NS6 is also a fantastic machine and I had great fun with NS7 and even VCI-300 (in tour with it for over a year). 101% for me, as those machines brought back the fun in my profession.

Are we entitled to our money back on the product under consumer rights?

by a stupid, gullible buyer who believed in Novation and never would've thought they'd blatant miss such simple aspects of design.

I feel like a bought a Mercedes Benz and just discovered it only goes 45MPH after I got it home and the manufacturer is now telling me they designed it that way because they were concerned about drivers getting speeding tickets.

I hear ya, but none of those products fit my needs so I can't comment on them. Sorry, should've clarified. I was soooo excited when Twitch came it out because FINALLY, after all these years a unit fit my needs (or so I thought).

I'd strongly suggest you to try to sum the booth and master out before complaining further.

Also, following your analogy, Mercedes Benzs usually dont cone for the price of a Honda. Twitch is a cheap controller, don't forget Serato get their slice for the software!

yes, the first generation of itch controllers seemed to provide quite high standards,
when problems where found they seemed to have been corrected (not sure how fast though)
i have no question about ns7/v7, they seem to be the top players (and i dont really like / trust numark for some years) but are too heavy / big for me and my needs (and quite some ppl)
same about xone, some like it some dont, some report issues (unfortunatelly), but it sure seems to be a really hi quality product
the vci was always the small brother of the bunch, appealing to a lot of ppl because of portability, but had the sound problem that was corrected (albeit one year after releasing, probably to avoid a fix on mk1 units that might trigger some sort recall)

only now with twitch they really seemed to have lowered the standards, as i have stated preciously i will not be surprised if the next itch controllers are from m-audio or hercules

I don't care what it costs, I just want it to be right.

$500 is wasted if it can't be used, but $1,500 is a bargain if it can.

Never did Novation advertise (nor did I suspect) that Twitch would be so handicapped at this price point.

Or any other price point.

The only thing that feels very wrong to me is not the low volume per se but the fact that they advertised the product as having "high level output" which is factually false.

On the other hand, I have used the VCI-300 (which is about as loud as the Twitch) in places like 2000 ppl clubs, 10000 ppl festivals, with convincing, "pro" results. I think Twitch can be used in a pro environment too, just use the "booth out sum trick" (if it actually works) and you'll be fine.

right on


i on the other hand already felt in trouble with vestax vci 300 as i had to ride djm channel gains all the way up to match levels,
with twitch output being even lower than vci when compared side by side this situation has just gone worse

this is new to me, you mean using a "split", er, in this case in reverse to get both signals from balanced and unbalanced outputs on a single one ?

No. Just plug the booth out (crank up its volume knob!) into another mixer channel. You'll double the volume of the unit (I haven't tried it yet though). If you don't have a second available channel you will need to build a 4:2 cable.

@cerla: wow, so simple, yet so... valid...
will check it tonight as i was already planning to compare (by myself) output of twitch into djm with cdjs so it is just one more test to do, thanks man !

you suggestion also made me notice just now a new thing:
novation had to limit the audio outputs gain but were able to put a second amp for the booth output ???? does this even make any sense ????
i am sure a lot of ppl rave about booth out even if they never ever use it, but on my part i would prefer to live without one to benefit from higher gain on master output, aka, the important one

i mean what is the point of having crazy low booth output, as far as i am concerned, with some bad luck you would not even be able to hear the monitoring properly on a loud environment

I think they opted for the trade-off booth output vs louder output. And I bet that summing the signals the "missing 3dBs" would magically reappear :) please report if it works!

you may be right !
though it makes no sense at all to me why would they cripple the main output just because there is an extra one, not even being used most of the times...

I totally agree.

(gone testing, will report tomorrow;)

If that's the case (booth output vs hotter main output), then I wonder why there isn't a switch to allow the user to select when a booth monitor is/isn't being used, that way he/she could drop more power to the main when booth is not used. I may be over-simplifying this, but just thinking out loud.

Think about it this way: In a club environment, yes, many times you will be connecting to a main/house mixer and the booth monitor will be connected to it and controlled by that mixer so no need for Twitch's booth outputs in those scenarios. Flip the switch, send full high power out to the mains, done.

Not ideal, but would this have worked?

Still, a simple plug-in power supply option would've solved ALL of this :-/

PS: One of the reasons I waited, passed on other units and finally went with Twitch is specifically because separate booth outputs because I need those for many of my applications. Had no idea none of it was going to be practically unusable. If this combining of booth/mains works, I'm basically back to square A because I will then not have booth outputs which defeats the whole purpose of waiting for them in the first place and banking of Twitch. Arrrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!

I'm starting a professional DJ equipment company tomorrow serato.com

back from testing

so here are my conclusions, theres good news and bads news:
1 balanced and unbalanced outputs have exactly same power,
some users seem to assume the rca unbalanced has lower output than the 1/4"one, this is not true

2 playing same track on cdj 400 on one channel and twitch on another one,
(twitch output at fuill master gain... channel gain a little below triggering the limiter)
- cdj channel is at 12 oclock on gain and showing +7db on the meters (3 segments below max, i know its hot but its not unusual at all, it is not even very very high for a lot of situations i found when playing)
-twitch channel has to be on full gain (!) to be able to show the same +7db on the meters, even then sound seemed a little thiner than the one coming from the cdj (this is somewhat objective obviously)

so, regarding the connecting to a mixer situation and trusting the mixer channel gain will sort it out is not really something you should reply on:
you may be lucky and gains are not very hot or it may happen that you are the first to play so no biggie

but if you are the main attraction or someone with a good timeslot and play after someone pushing a little more than those 12 oclock on a djm (others mixer may be able to provide more clean gain while others may not even be able to provide the same amount of gain as a djm) then in this case you will be soo f****d, as you you will noticeably sound lower than the previous guy.

when whoever hired you comes telling you push it louder and you let them know you cant, that all is maxed out but you have this pos gear that is not able to put out a decent volume, then my fellows, that is the time you can kiss any credibility goodbye

3 following djcerla advice i then connected another cable to the booth out (set to master on the master / cue switch) and connected this cable to another djm channel and i am pleased to report, IT WORKS!
this way output is finally comparable to cdjs, even providing a tiny bit of headroom to allow you to maybe roll down a little any of the gains from full max (mixer channel gain and twitch master and booth output gain) but not too much though...
i am now curious to check a custom cable that merges both balanced and unlanced outputs into a single cable as that would surely be more convenient to use and provide even better comparison between twitch output connected in this fashion and other possible connected devices like cdjs, sl, audio dj

so, the big conclusion is that it the product is indeed severely crippled in the audio output department, making it not reliable at all in real life situations (sorry to the bedroom djs that may insist that all is fine, kudos for you for enjoying your devices:)

to be used in such situations you need to resort to one of these possible workarounds:
- use a dedicated pre amp between twitch output and mixer input, this should solve the problem cleanly (ie: without need to have twitch output gains and mixer input gains on max) but adds bulk and takes out a little of the portability and convenience of a small one in one device
- connect both twitch outputs to 2 mixer channels and push those babies almost to the max, yes, both the mixer channel gains and the twitch master output and twitch booth output (set to master on the master / cue switch),
an alternative setup is to get a custom cable that merges the unbalanced rca and balanced 1/4" jack into a single cable ending in rcas to plug into a single mixer channel

(sorry for a long post, i hope it helps more ppl:)

...or return it and look at an alternative that meets a decent standard

What alternative? Twitch is pretty unique and I think we've come up with a fairly simple workaround for low output.

this is so true, i forgot to say we had lots of fun
i showed twitch + itch to the djm + cdjs owner and he also seemed to enjoy alot
(albeit being shocked with the crazy low output, he actually compared it to a cheapo m audio soundcard he once tried and fighted a lot to match the cdjs)
unfortunately i am a dumb add and completelly forgot to record it or i could post the end result


you did, man, you did, afaik, all credit is due to you ;)
thanks alot!
out of curiosity, is this a new solution you cooked or something that was found / used in vci mk1 era ?

as in, record the dj set that was played during the night with twitch

Cooked at the moment :) on the VCI the main complaint was low headphones volume.

Good work Nonnus and idea Cerla. Nice to know we have a band-aid if needed. Thanks

My biggest need for an AIO controller is as a backup plan for when I arrive at an event and discover that the venue/promoter doesn't have their shit together gear-wise. We've all seen it. TT are f*cked and are unreliable, mixer is crap, missing knobs, whatever, etc.. The crowd isn't aware of any of these obstacles, rather they look at you, the DJ as the one perform as if there's nothing wrong and if anything does go wrong, it must be the DJ's fault so you are the one who looks bad in the end, not the venue/promoter. I want/NEED to remove this condition from my performance under these circumstances. The way I intend and seek to do this is by investing in a top-notch, professional-grade AIO controller so I will have 100% control of the source gear and can say to the venue/promoter if/when I find Scratch LIVE isn't going work: "Just give me a line into your soundsystem so I can get on with my performance" (and get paid and maintain my credibility and ultimately my reputation with the crowd). An AIO controller solution is my PLAN B to my PLAN A (SL+ properly working TTs or CDJs).

An AIO controller for my needs just stated above must be professional grade audio quality, output level that meets that of CDJs, loud headphone output, durable, reliable and compact enough to drop on a Crane laptop stand because of real estate constraints found in many booths. The last requirement (size) eliminates every AIO ITCH controller currently on the market other than Twitch, VCI-300 and Xone DX (this one's getting a bit too large though).

I THOUGHT Twitch was finally my God-send answer and solution, but it has turned out to be a BIG mistake since it is riddled with software problems (which can be fixed) and worse, hardware problems (which can't be fixed). This is all well documented on this forum in the general section as well as help section. Sooooo disappointed in what otherwise could've been a GREAT AIO controller solution.


Someone here said earlier" there are plenty of external mixer friendly controller options for both ITCH and SSL". This is sadly (and very frustratingly) NOT TRUE. Fact is there are only two (yeah, TWO!) controllers for ITCH currently on the market that are designed to be used with external mixers: Numark V7 and Denon DJ DN HC-5000 - and the Denon doesn't really count since it's a permanent rack mount design. The V7 on the other hand is a completely different animal too and is not an option for me. I have zero need/desire for rotating platters when working with ITCH, it's big, it's heavy, and I do not want to have to bounce between different layer modes just to access primary controls for each deck. Don't get me wrong, the V7 is a great unit, just not for my needs/desires. What I need/want in a ITCH controller that is designed for external mixing is something for along the lines Twitch MINUS the mixer section (like this: serato.com ) Concept A (single unit) i802.photobucket.com & i802.photobucket.com Concept B (dual unit) i802.photobucket.com & i802.photobucket.com

I'm impressed lads... kudos!

Now what we need is for Novation to offer us a free 'patch' by sending us a cable in the post for every registered Twitch unit to combine the two output signals.

Maybe via a firmware update make the booth amp "on/off" switchable for people that don't use it (that doesn't solve it for the people that do though) sending all the power to the Master Out?
By disabling one amp could this be a work around for some that don't use both?

Just a thought.

I personally echo this and think the nail has been hit totally on the head here.

I love the Twitch unit and what it can do (software bugs aside) but the output volume seems to just let down something that would have been a total beast for minimal outlay.

There is very little kit at the entry level of itch with such power and creative opportunity and feel as if one small decision at Novation and Serato (as they had development input too - remember the touchstrip marmalade video?) could have really blown away the competition. Deliberate maybe? Maybe it was stifled in development as to offer a cut price unit at the lower end of the scale that only the VCI really has monopoly over? I don't mind if so and think it's great but don't sell it to me as a unit that appears to be professional club gear but once i have it find out it was designed to a retail price.

I don't think i'll give up on Twitch as it still works for me in the club where i reside for three nights a week (the other three nights in another place i'll use the SL3 - shame).

I own Novation Dicers, Novation Launchpads (x2) and now a Novation Twitch... shame the Twitch is the only thing i remember for being the weakest of the Novation bunch :(

Our thanks go out to everyone who has posted here and got in touch with us. We want to work with you more closely in future.

Based on our research with DJs and performers, we worked on developing the best quality audio outputs (i.e best sounding in terms of signal to noise ratio) whilst ensuring Twitch is bus powered and fully portable. We also wanted to keep Twitch within the reach of those people who want to make music but don't have a massive budget. Adding a power supply option would have made it significantly more expensive.

However, thanks to some of the responses we have had since launch, we now clearly understand that some professional DJs have concerns about the output level in some of the environments they play in. More specifically where the gain has been set beyond halfway by the last DJ, leaving too little gain to match Twitch (in venues where the system is not looked after by an engineer who manages the gain stages for different performers).

Unfortunately, a firmware upgrade will not boost the output level of Twitch. The power management is already balanced to deliver a high-quality output, power to the control surface and sufficient output level in most situations. However, we do recommend the following hardware solutions, all of which we have now tested or are testing in house. All our tests involve comparing the output levels to an industry standard:

Combining the Booth and Main outputs:

Whilst this means no separate booth output, it will double the output level of Twitch. You can use both the booth and main output, and route them to two channels of the mixer. This will add 6dB to the output of Twitch. It also offers additional gain from the second channel of the mixer.

Buying a mini line mixer.

We have tried and tested some affordable line output mixers, each providing enough output level to take Twitch in line with the output level of a professional CDJ. These units are light-weight and affordable.

We have tested the following units:
ART PowerMIX III Personal Stereo Mixer
www.artproaudio.com
(This provides the highest output level)

Samson S-mix Mini Mixer
www.samsontech.com
(Slightly lower output than the Art)

We have not tested the Behringer but it is another option available at minimal cost:
Behringer 502 small format mixer
www.behringer.com

It has been a large engineering project to power almost 170 LEDs and the high-quality interface in Twitch with USB. We hope that these engineering decisions will benefit the vast majority of Twitch DJs and suit most situations. We recognise that the compromises and decisions we have had to make will not satisfy everyone.

We really do want to give you the best gear that we can. In those environments where you do want a hotter output, the suggestions above will provide the additional gain without compromising quality.

Thanks once again, the Novation Team.

Thanks Neil.

Isn't 3dBs the actual gain? From wikipedia: "A change in power ratio by a factor of two is approximately a 3 dB change." en.wikipedia.org.

Man, I didn't even make it to the output, because as soon as I did a bass cut and my knob stayed at 1/4 of the way I was like, nope gotta go back. I considered hanging on to it but I am glad I sent it back and got the Xone DX instead. Maybe there will be an MKII in the future, this is like VCI300 Dejavu.

@Neil Marron (Focusrite/Novation):
thank you for providing an official reply that although may not be the one we hoped for (miracle by firmware) it shows you cared enough to listen to user feedback to acknowledge the situation and post about it

the part that left me slightly concerned / disappointed was

as i have to say i find this to be highly surprising
i am just considering adding the jack for a universal power supply, not bundling one,
would it really make the unit so much more expensive?
to the point of not being considered as an obvious thing to add on a future revision of the product ?

in the end i feel that twitch may never have a simple power supply option or proper audio output by itself, which is unfortunate...

it seems the user provided solutions for the problem (that were actually found and spread around by users while novation was still trying to convince us all was fine) now provide the perfect excuse for this issue to never be properly take care once and for all

Hi Nonnus, I think the Novation statement is not an "excuse". It makes perfect sense to me. In short:

A) USB-only was a priority for Novation
B) given the nature of the controller (many LEDS, touchstrips) they had to trade volume for signal-to-noise ratio
C) if the user doesn't need a super-hot output all is fine
D) if the user needs a super-hot output, Novation gave solutions, even a free one (that I already discovered myself, by the way :)

The product is not "defective" in any way, only the "high output" advertising is.

i know! i always credited you for that awesome tip ;)
imo, novation just reported the found solutions, they did not really provided them


sure,
but it would be nice to know they will have the good sense to consider option for external power / higher output on future revision of this product or even different ones :)

I think they have taken everything onboard :)

ps: the "excuse" part was not regarding the statement,
but how the provided workarounds might prevent the "real solution" to ever be implemented

All those LEDs sucking up USB power are worthless when using Twitch at outdoor events. Good luck being able to tell if features are engaged or disengaged. Completely unreadable. Horrible.

Geez this thing is a disaster for many professionals.

I disagree. LEDs are well visible even in full sunlight.

Must be brighter sunlight where I am. I'll try to get some video of how bad/non-existent Twitch's illumination is and post it here.

I know it would "break" the concept of direct mapping / plug & play that Itch is built on. but wouldn't another option be for Serato to make a special exception for Twitch only, & add an option for Twitch users to use an alternative soundcard?

I think Serato have to take some of the responsibility for this. They partner'ed with Novation on the Twitch project, & surely must have had to sign off Novation's design before it went ahead.

I'd be more than happy, it I was able to gaffa tape my N.I. Audio 2 souncard to the bottom of my Twitch! (which i may do for when working with traktor) :-)

not a bad suggestion at all,
but i just don't see it happening...

(good thing there is the traktor option, it was always an escape route, just not so sure how well twitch works outside of the blessed itch garden / with traktor template)

this applies to all controllers/DJ equipment as well. Twitch is JUST FINE as far as lighting is concerned, IMHO.

Take a look at the NI S4, it's way worse. It's almost unlit, even in the dark!

you are only talking about s4 on usb power for plain comparison, i assume ?
on power supply i had not issues at all with s4 lighting / brightness (did not have any on usb as well but i expected the dimming and did not use on tricky lighting conditions)

cant say anything against twitch lighting on my side,
i actually fail to see any advantage in having it any brighter (i even remember someone asking to have it not so bright),
as usual it is something that could be added as user defined setting setup like the font sizes on itch / x1 brightness control on t2 preferences

i understand that if we did add all the possible options to itch setup, it would quickly stop being so simple and streamlined but i am just not so sure if it is such a bad thing to account for most important / requested user options, as long as the software starts up with a sensible selection of default settings out of the box that should fit most user needs it is fine to offer something more for who thinkers underneath the hood

I am saying that a Twitch put aside a S4 looks like a Christmas tree.

this is rly a shame. such a cool product, but such an oversight. not sure which dj's and performers u guys hit up for this, but surely a decent output would have been a priority. it rly cripples the rest of the unit.

most of the times when i'm playing at a larger festival or event, the sound guys want to keep the mixer at a maximum of one red. the mixer is running hot.. but this is the case in most situations. the solution with buying extra equipment to get a louder output completely defeats the concept of being portable, plus ad's more cost to the end user, which is not exactly a solution... especially when something is advertised as being a solution.

thanks you celra for ur work around. but, i have lost all faith with novation products. every single product I have bought from novation has been of lower standard. my 1st k-station defected with materials, just after my warranty. my remote 25 also gave out after a year.. also after my warranty. my nocturn also ended up having a mind of its own... not to mention how much a pain in the ass automap is. AND.. i just bought another k-station from a friend who had his in storage.. and again, problems with dials jumping parameters.. so i'm stuck with noise on every patch @ 12-20%.

Sorry to go off like this. I know these products are unrelated, but from my previous experiences, I have a rather bitter taste in my mouth. maybe i just got unlucky.

@ Niel Marron: ur comment with making products for ppl without a massive budget reflects on the quality of products produced.

hopefully one day the level of quality will rise... because the concepts behind them are brilliant.

Isn't that possible by a firmware update? I guess only a few of us need both outputs separately controlled.

What about Y-Cables? Master R + Booth R -> Line R and Master L + Booth L -> Line L? So we wouldn't need two channels on a mixer.

nope, Novation just said it's not possible.



Sure it is, actually that was my first idea when VolumeGate was first reported serato.com

Ditto, will be collecting mine today. Glad you like it.




Yep, the S4 with mains power is HOT and BRIGHT!

HOT, yes (but headphones are low); but BRIGHT? Have you ever seen one in a club next to, say, a VCI-300? Not to mention a Twitch.

No, I'm affraid not. I sold Twitch to get the S4, I really like it but my heart is with Serato so I'm getting the Xone DX which is even darker.

Time for me to eat some carrots!

I posted an inquiry/request the other day for Novation to offer an advanced/pro version of Twitch. I really like the basic concept, but need it to be able to operate under more conditions than the current unit does (insufficient output and brightness being primary weaknesses).

Yes, this is really bad with the low sound output on the Twitch. Go for a Xone DX if you want top class audio outputs. I am stuck with my Twitch now and performance will be out of the question.

Uhm. Unfortunately no.

DX soundcard simply sucks compared to a DDJ-S1, NS7. Much quieter and worse sound.

Yeah, I should clarify what I meant. The quality of Twitch's out seems fine (as in sound quality), it's just that the output level is weak and unacceptable for a lot of real world gig scenarios.

Also can't see a damn thing as far as illumination goes on the buttons in daylight so no idea what's on/off without grabbing things to shield the ambient light. Not good when trying to concentrate on music and mixing in front of crowd.

This was my solution at $48

I have preamped mine through a Behringer Xenyx 802 Premium Mic/Line mixer prior to going into my mixer. I know it is not the perfect solution but the preamp and tone (Bass, Mid and Treble) section on this device are really nice and warm sounding. this helps the boxey sound. The behringer has nice output without adding a lot of noise. It is also small enough and cheap enough to take when i am on the road or in a club and works well in the studio. Just my 2 cents...

Is plugging in one more device really too much to ask of a DJ? So much so that Novation thought the output problems would be less of an issue to us than finding an extra outlet? Aren't we plugging in our laptops, speakers, mixers, etc. anyway? The convenience of this being bus powered only matters to me if I'm in my car or waiting at the airport. They have power there too! What I'd make off providing a great show at sufficient volume would pay for the extra nickels it would cost to see a powered model.

i really dont still see a problem when running thru a normal mixer with the sound.

and i ive recorded straight into the computer from a quarter inch cord and i still think the sound is better than and ssl 123 box. but i guess everyone has different ears.

My solution was to sell my Twitch on Ebay. You can get so much better quality for £399. I made a mistake by not getting myself an external sound card in the first place. Itch doesn't allow for creativity and limits the choices a DJ can make in his/her setup.
Itch's bedroom software limits the creativity of any DJ. Was nice trying Itch out, but I have turned my interest to Ableton again where I am in control of what happens in my digital mix.
Good buy.

you could have used it with ableton or traktor.

Each to his own.

All I will say is I LOVE my Twitch. If Itch did video I'd use it 6 nights a week. As it is I use it at 3 of my weekly spots. It's the business.

The output level is only a problem if you are playing with other DJs who are idiots and run in the red all the time.

bob what version of itch are you using?

2.1 beta. It's WAY more stable than 2.01.

Even though it's a beta I'd recommend everyone use it.

guys i have a great news for everybody owning a twitch and making a fuss about the output it provides.
i got my self an ART mixiii which is an extremely small unit to carry it in ur bag weighing bout a pound.it was on the top list of suggested units by novation so i got it.not only its handly but also pretty cheap,i got it for 65$ .
Connecting the master out and booth out to this mixer makes twitch's output as good as cdjs and thrs no hassel in connecting this small device as well.
once u get this personal art mixer u wont regret getting twitch and will once again fall in love with this brilliant equipment.
remember u got to connect booth out and master out to the art mixer and then connect ur main sound to the art mixer.it will 100% work without fail :)

A possibility for Twitch MK2 could be a small PSU as an option.

USB only:
low power output with decent illumination (as it is now)

USB + PSU:
high power output with bright illumination

I was so close to buying this, then I read about it here.

If the leds are sucking so much juice an easy solution would be a dual usb lead to take power from 2 ports (as you get with some external HDDs)

Novation could send the free lead to eveyone along with a firmware patch that fixes the issues.

Personally i see the Novation Twitch as a powerfull DJ Tool an not as a "toy" as it's pure innovation.I agree about the fact that the sound level is lower -but the sound quality is more than ok- than other controllers with built in audio interfaces but it's nothing that can't be properly fixed.If you are using Itch the solution is to purchase an ART PowerMIX III in order to enhance the controllers output level or just use Twich through a mixer and you shall have no problem.Myself i use twitch along with Traktor Pro 2 and Abelton Live and for sound output i use the Traktor Audio 2 Sound Interface a powerfull,fully protable and affordable soundcard.So sure the Twitch isn't the loudest controller out there but it's the most fun to use and innovative there is so as there are solutions to have loud and quality sound there is no reason for me not to buy Twitch.

Novation needs to make a pt. 2 big brother - Twitch 4 liner / decks ..with ac power and a killer sound card!

Thanks for the heads up guys but I'm still buying it, here in Holland I have a deal for 235 Euro.. If you indeed need more gain we audiophiles make sure we get it trough other hardware. I mostly will use it for bedroom mixing so can't wait to get it.

I use the Mackie 402-VLZ3 to boost output. More flexible with XLR in, balanced out and it's virtually indestructible for 10 bucks more than the Art.

You won't go wrong for that price. I got it on launch day and I'm still rocking it out for smaller gigs and where Scratch Live isn't needed.

Dispite a few little niggles that can be easily overcome, for the money, I don't think anything comes close (even now).

+1

I still have love for mine, still bring it out for the occasional gig despite owning a 380 and an SX.

What really appeals to me is that it's a truly unique design. All the other Itch controllers are trying to ape an existing tech, be it turns or CDJs. The Twitch is something entirely different.

Definitely.

It takes a lot of balls to think out of the box in the DJ world where people are accustomed to jog wheels and a now pretty much standard lay out, but I think Novation managed to pull it off with the Twitch.

I (foolishly) didn't pack it when I went to Zante last summer and regretted it instantly. I made sure it was the first thing I packed when I went somewhere else for two months this winter and it made everything so much easier.

I wanted the SX as soon as they was announced but I'm hanging fire at the moment as the Twitch fits in my Scratch Live UDG bag like a glove so it's ideal for jumping on a plane with.

Perfect? Not quite.
Fun? Plenty.
Value for money? At £299, it's a no-brainer.

I have no problems with the soundcard. I don't use Itch, I use Traktor Pro - but still, outputs at the same level as my VCI-300 and I don't have to turn anything up, so it's all good. Also, no noise at all. I really do love Twitch; the VCI's jog wheels are the reason I got rid of it; I was on 2 Launchpads and an F1 for a while which was good fun but took up too much room. This is the ideal 'inbetweener' for a real controllerist setup and an all-in-one controller.

Hi All,

I thought I would share my opinion about Twitch and Itch after reading the full conversation on the topic.
It seems I was lucky enough to join in late when all the issues had been solved (flac, low output)... :) I actually already had my first gig with them and it was very pleasant experience and good fun smashing the beats up live even if the 'master out' was very low. (I just turned up the gain on the main mixer at the bar and it was fine from there... not the best, but quite enough for a good set. Next time I'll also wire up the booth and I'll check how it's doing then. )
There is one thing here which got my attention instantly, though... to be honest that was what made me read the topic: the title. "Not as excited now that I played with it..."... :)
Interesting... I thought to myself... let's read this. Just 'cause I'm on the opposite side... I played with it, had a gig with it and can't wait to set up my tracks for the next gig with some killer cue points and loops. I went through almost 400 controllers and their reviews before I chose Twitch. :) I know what I was buying and for what reason. It seems to me, that the people who are bored with it just didn't really get the advantages of Twitch. I produce music as well. It was priceless that I was able to play my newest ideas at the gig simply by rendering them as 20-30 second wav files and looping the hell out of them live with some interesting cue points and putting the icing on the cake with the fader effect section and adding a touch of bitcrusher here and there for good measure. :) I can't even say that I was fully prepared for the gig as I had a short time to put my set together, but even so, it's been surprisingly easy to manage anything I wanted, really.
I think Twitch is absolutely suitable for people who are into experimental things and who like to play around with short cuts, filters and loops. I can only imagine someone getting bored with it if they're using it for regular mixing, one track to the other, no tricking around at all. I don't mean to judge anyone's mixing technique... it's just that if you use the possibilities of this console, you'll never be bored. :)

All the best to all the users!

Now this is someone who "gets" the purpose of the Twitch.

It's a controller from a company that make tools for producers. It's a controllerists tool. Someone who wants to do something different other than blend from one track to another.

I'm very happy you have used Twitch to it's full advantage. You are using Twich as intended and for that I consider it a great review of your experience with it.

It's layout, the introduction of the slicer, it's Ableton map. It's a great tool for producers and technical DJ's alike.

Glad you enjoyed your first experience with what is a pretty underrated controller for the money.

+1

I agree, I love the twitch as an addition to my Vinyl set up. Super fun to throw in the back pack for weekend getaways. It's a great companion for Ableton if you're coming from a dj background (like most of us on this board).

I had gear envy when the VCI-380 came out. I even demo'd it and love the way it feels. But for the cost difference I wouldn't consider switching unless I no longer had a DVS set up.

IMHO Twitch is worth the price for the beat gridding controls alone. I am more encouraged to do this task as I'm previewing songs sitting down with a controller rather than standing at my decks. (Your grids set in itch are universal for all Serato programs. #obvious)

I was going to get a little Behringer XENYX 302 USB Mixer, to solve the diabolically poor sound output on this controller..

I love my Twitch but the sound output really goes against it when comparinf to other controllers...

I presently have to have the channel gain on any mixer I'm plugged into on practically full vol. to just about touch +7

@ proj, hey buddy, I hope you can help me with something, By mistake I got the art macro mix in stead of the ART mixiii , would this mixer fix the sound problem?

Thanks so much..

Juts to add my thoughts on the thread, i genuinely think the twitch is brilliant!
I've never owned any other dedicated dj controller, i came from an ableton background using launchpads & nocturns etc... but the twitch and itch blows these out the water for what i do.
But if needs be i can go back to ableton and still use the twitch!
My opinion on the output, it is fairly low, but its never been a problem so far.
But, i did take novations advice anyway and purchased the samson s-mix (which i won on ebay for 99p!!!!! - bargain of the century!!) i was very suprised at how loud the output actually was with it, just for home studio use, i never have the twitch master over a quater turn now.

As someone mentioned above, it you were just going from one song to the next, I'd imagine you could find the twitch a bit boring, but i have my akai impc, ikaossilator & a korg quad all hooked up with it, and it is just ridiculous!! I have no need to even look at any other controllers, especially as the output is now sorted!

Also just to add on my comment above^^
Was just reading another post above about connecting the art powermix, having to connect both the master and booth outputs to get the required level... :-/
On my samson s-mix, i connected master L to channel 1 and master R to channel 2 only, i still have my booth outputs free, and the output level is perfect! Win Win!

So glad I went n got KRK ROKIT R5s.. I don't notice the poor sound level now..

I messaged Novation via their facebook page about this, all they suggested was what I had already done, by either running master off CH1 on mixer and Booth(set to master instead of cue) off CH2.. I've previously linked the Twitch master and booth via a splitter and run then both through one channel.. made no noticeable difference.

the other option.. an external mini mixer (Behringer was my 1st option).. This is an extra £40/60

So glad I went n got KRK ROKIT R5s.. I don't notice the poor sound level now..

I messaged Novation via their facebook page about this, all they suggested was what I had already done, by either running master off CH1 on mixer and Booth(set to master instead of cue) off CH2.. I've previously linked the Twitch master and booth via a splitter and run then both through one channel.. made no noticeable difference.

the other option.. an external mini mixer (Behringer was my 1st option).. This is an extra £40/60

So glad I went n got KRK ROKIT R5s.. I don't notice the poor sound level now..

I messaged Novation via their facebook page about this, all they suggested was what I had already done, by either running master off CH1 on mixer and Booth(set to master instead of cue) off CH2.. I've previously linked the Twitch master and booth via a splitter and run then both through one channel.. made no noticeable difference.

the other option.. an external mini mixer (Behringer was my 1st option).. This is an extra £40/60