DJing Discussion

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Harmonic Mixing Question!!

shhk88 5:31 PM - 2 December, 2010
What's up SSL family? I have few questions about harmonic mixing. I know a lot of djs are mixing in keys these days.. I am new to this harmonic mixing. I just got Mixed In Key and I am learning how to mix in key with the Camelot wheel. I spin Top40, Hip Hop, Dance and Electro. My questions are:

1. Does it really make a difference when we mix songs in keys such as 2A>2B>3B>3A?
or can we jump around with the keys like 2A>4A>4B>12B?

2. I listen to a lot of big name DJs. I have noticed that sometimes they do mix in keys and sometimes they just jump around with the keys. To me, everything sounds good but doesn't it make the keys crash together?

3. Should I rely on the keys to mix? or Should I not to worry too much about it?

Thank you!!
Dj-M.Bezzle 5:44 PM - 2 December, 2010
Does it sound better when you mix harmonically? YES

WIll the general public care if you dont? Prob not

Shold you always do it? Try to but whyen playing in most clubs track selection is just as important, play what the people want to hear and the harmony of it becauses less important
Audio1 5:45 PM - 2 December, 2010
You might be worring about this a little too much.

1 - You usually can mix within a key and the one above, below. Say if you are in 2A, You can harmonically mix with 2A track but can mix with 1A and 3A... to jump from 2A to 4A, I believe is one form of an "energy boost", by going up 2 semitones but it has to be done (I believe) with no melodies involved. This is idea for hip hop and pop music where you'd be mixing raw drums before the keys clash.

2 - A lot of big name DJ's indeed do mix in key to elevate and drop the energy levels of their set and maintain a constant flow. You can go from say 2A to 4A as a 2 semitone boost or from 2A to 9A as a 1 semitone boost. Again, from my own experience, I solely do this when mixing between tracks where 2 melodies dont collide together, like say mixing out of a tune by mixing in the drum intro with no melody of the next song.

3 - Honestly (I was just chatting with DJ ARMPIT about this), A normal club crowd cant tell the difference. They just go party, get drunk and dance. The only people key mixing will matter to will be yourself and just about any other DJ or person with knowledge of music theory. In the end, Key mixing is supposed to make your mixes sound clean and smoother.
Audio1 5:48 PM - 2 December, 2010
Energy Boost

to jump 1 semitone, Add +7 to where you are (2A --> 9A)
to jump 2 semitones, Add +2 to where you are (2A --> 4A)

Again, This is all trial and error. Don't let your ears deceive you. If it doesn't sound right together, Try something else.
shhk88 6:34 PM - 2 December, 2010
Thank you, M-Bezzle and Audio1. It is good to hear from you guys!!
I think I am worrying too much about mixing in keys.
Audio1 6:38 PM - 2 December, 2010
The problem these days is that software such as Serato and Mixed In Key are being used as crutches for things a DJ should normally know how to do without. It's sad that if you take away Serato/Traktor from many DJ's these days and gave them 2 pieces of vinyl, They couldnt put a beatmix together. The same for Mixed in Key. before that and rapid evolution, you have to use your ears to discern what records sounded well together and which didnt. technology will never replace these things, but they can help tremendously if used right.
shhk88 3:02 AM - 3 December, 2010
Agreed!! It is sad to see some of the djs can't mix without looking at the computer screen.
Audio1, I got a question about Mixed In Key. I have analyzed some of my songs and I am getting 2 keys for a song which I know it is normal. Ex: 2A/3A in MIK. However, when I reanalyze the song in Serato. It doesn't show both of the keys. Only 2A or 3A. Is it possible to show as 2A/3A in Serato?

I am using Mac OS X Version 10.6.5.
SSL 2.1.1 & Mixed In Key 4.1
Thank you.
Dj BuddyLove 5:33 AM - 3 December, 2010
Quote:
Agreed!! It is sad to see some of the djs can't mix without looking at the computer screen.
Audio1, I got a question about Mixed In Key. I have analyzed some of my songs and I am getting 2 keys for a song which I know it is normal. Ex: 2A/3A in MIK. However, when I reanalyze the song in Serato. It doesn't show both of the keys. Only 2A or 3A. Is it possible to show as 2A/3A in Serato?

I am using Mac OS X Version 10.6.5.
SSL 2.1.1 & Mixed In Key 4.1
Thank you.


not at this time.
i believe the key box located on the deck is only large enough for 4 spaces.
there was talk awhile back on adding more spaces to the key area..
but guess that got forgotten.
Dirty Digits 8:07 AM - 3 December, 2010
Quote:
Energy Boost

to jump 1 semitone, Add +7 to where you are (2A --> 9A)
to jump 2 semitones, Add +2 to where you are (2A --> 4A)

Again, This is all trial and error. Don't let your ears deceive you. If it doesn't sound right together, Try something else.


Word up. To further describe it. +7 = half note & +14 = a full note's progression.
You can digress the notes using the same 7-14 scale as well & take the energy down.

These type of tricks I would only do once or twice per night at most.
Audio1 8:16 AM - 3 December, 2010
Quote:
Quote:


Agreed!! It is sad to see some of the djs can't mix without looking at the computer screen.
Audio1, I got a question about Mixed In Key. I have analyzed some of my songs and I am getting 2 keys for a song which I know it is normal. Ex: 2A/3A in MIK. However, when I reanalyze the song in Serato. It doesn't show both of the keys. Only 2A or 3A. Is it possible to show as 2A/3A in Serato?

I am using Mac OS X Version 10.6.5.
SSL 2.1.1 & Mixed In Key 4.1
Thank you.


not at this time.
i believe the key box located on the deck is only large enough for 4 spaces.
there was talk awhile back on adding more spaces to the key area..
but guess that got forgotten.

I skip the Key box and have MIK post the keys on the comments area. personal preference.
Dj BuddyLove 8:56 AM - 3 December, 2010
Quote:
Quote:


Quote:




Agreed!! It is sad to see some of the djs can't mix without looking at the computer screen.
Audio1, I got a question about Mixed In Key. I have analyzed some of my songs and I am getting 2 keys for a song which I know it is normal. Ex: 2A/3A in MIK. However, when I reanalyze the song in Serato. It doesn't show both of the keys. Only 2A or 3A. Is it possible to show as 2A/3A in Serato?

I am using Mac OS X Version 10.6.5.
SSL 2.1.1 & Mixed In Key 4.1
Thank you.


not at this time.
i believe the key box located on the deck is only large enough for 4 spaces.
there was talk awhile back on adding more spaces to the key area..
but guess that got forgotten.

I skip the Key box and have MIK post the keys on the comments area. personal preference.


i have mine in the key box area. in the music list area it can use as many spaces as you need. but once you load the track in the deck you are only able to see mabey 4 spaces in on the box in the deck. was what i was referring to his question.

i try to keep my comments clear except for the occasional dirty version, clean version blah
DJ ARMP!T 12:15 PM - 3 December, 2010
shout out to Audio1 for always taking the time to help AND educate other DJs!
shhk88 2:53 PM - 3 December, 2010
Yeah! Shout to Audio1 and other DJs!! Thanks guys!!
shhk88 2:53 PM - 3 December, 2010
Shout out
Audio1 6:37 PM - 3 December, 2010
Every DJ has his/her/shim's way of organizing their serato. Mine are pretty much color coded. Green for Clean / For any crowd and Red for Dirty / Club only affairs.
Dj BuddyLove 11:04 PM - 3 December, 2010
Quote:
Every DJ has his/her/shim's way of organizing their serato. Mine are pretty much color coded. Green for Clean / For any crowd and Red for Dirty / Club only affairs.


ive been thinking about doing that
dj_soo 11:21 PM - 3 December, 2010
use your ears first - does the mix sound in key? if not, don't do it.

MiK should be a guide, not a rule.
Audio1 11:43 PM - 3 December, 2010
Quote:
use your ears first - does the mix sound in key? if not, don't do it.

MiK should be a guide, not a rule.
+1
aznchopstix 5:24 AM - 4 December, 2010
you know this is a pretty interesting topic
i used to practice hours and hours to find out what songs would song good after another before MIK. But because i did, I would develop a natural intuition on what song to play next just by humming the song in my head.

Then i got MIK. omg wow! it was like someone did all the work for me.

i agree. stuff like serato, mik, is amazing; technology is amazing these days, but at the same time, i kinda feel like it takes away from the "art" of mixing.

You know? whats so special about a dj if anyone could read of a bpm and key?
PumpkinHead 6:29 AM - 4 December, 2010
Quote:
The problem these days is that software such as Serato and Mixed In Key are being used as crutches for things a DJ should normally know how to do without.


That statement is very true. I think it's important that a DJ be musically inclined ie, being able to hear with their own ears the differences between keys. I once started a post about DJs who play musical instruments (besides their turntables) and the numbers were quite high. Personally I sing and I've played the piano my whole life so I have a pretty good idea of keys so i don't actually use MIK or anything else. I think harmonic mixing should go hand in hand with beat matching, if your ears can't hear a key clash, it's something that you need to train your ears for and practice, just as you did with beat matching.

I was once told by DJ Bedtime that keys aren't necessarily important for the club when the punters wanna hear their fav songs. But when it comes down to recorded mixes make sure it's always in key. So I guess maybe there's a time and a place, but harmonic mixing definitely shouldn't be ignored.
DJ Tecniq 5:41 AM - 6 December, 2010
I'm not really getting this whole mixed in key thing. I have my tracks set by bpm. This is basically the same result as mixed in key or platinum notes correct? I know what should sound good together by the bpm. Why do I have to rely on a piece of software for harmonic mixing? Can someone elaborate...
geeunot 10:28 AM - 6 December, 2010
u have the bpms but not the KEYS of the tracks. every track has a different key, take for example if you're a top 40 dj, "yeah by usher" and "freak a leek" by petey pablo, they have different keys, it would sound weird if u mixed em together esp, with their melodies colliding.
DJ Art Pumpin Payne 6:22 PM - 6 December, 2010
Quote:
u have the bpms but not the KEYS of the tracks. every track has a different key, take for example if you're a top 40 dj, "yeah by usher" and "freak a leek" by petey pablo, they have different keys, it would sound weird if u mixed em together esp, with their melodies colliding.


+1

If you do House or R&B it does make a difference. On the Top 40 Urban or R&B tip think about some of the songs by Trey Songz or Ne-Yo that are heavy on the keyboards and melody like Trey- Can't Be Friends or Ne-Yo's old one - Miss Independent - Harmonic Mixing/knowing the key would be good to keep other songs from clashing when mixed with these.
Audio1 9:46 PM - 6 December, 2010
There is alot that many DJ's have to learn about DJing in general. music theory would be one very important thing.
dj_soo 9:49 PM - 6 December, 2010
^ it's actually amazing how many working djs don't actually know some of the fundamentals - and it's getting worse.

best trick to demonstrate and out-of key mix:

grab an acapella and instrumental of a melodic song and blend them at about +6 pitch.

turn keylock off for one and not the other.

now make sure none of your mixes ever sounds like that.
Audio1 10:03 PM - 6 December, 2010
Quote:
^ it's actually amazing how many working djs don't actually know some of the fundamentals - and it's getting worse.

best trick to demonstrate and out-of key mix:

grab an acapella and instrumental of a melodic song and blend them at about +6 pitch.

turn keylock off for one and not the other.

now make sure none of your mixes ever sounds like that.
Great test.
Audio1 10:05 PM - 6 December, 2010
Its bad enough sometimes I have to share the decks with DJ's who ask "WHY do you use EQ's for?"... Oh thats right, alot of rap/hip hop DJ's just slam tracks together with no regards to EQ's or Gain levels. LOL
DJ Tecniq 12:41 AM - 7 December, 2010
I fucking hate keylock! Do you guys really use that? All it does is limit mixing faster songs that aren't in the same bpm range. Why does a dj really need it? Keylock is the same as having the turntable pitch at the middle mark right? I have 1210 MK5's. How is keylock useful?
dj_soo 1:16 AM - 7 December, 2010
Quote:
I fucking hate keylock! Do you guys really use that? All it does is limit mixing faster songs that aren't in the same bpm range. Why does a dj really need it? Keylock is the same as having the turntable pitch at the middle mark right? I have 1210 MK5's. How is keylock useful?


key lock allows you to change the tempo without changing the pitch.
slimmjimm 1:16 AM - 7 December, 2010
Quote:
I fucking hate keylock! Do you guys really use that? All it does is limit mixing faster songs that aren't in the same bpm range. Why does a dj really need it? Keylock is the same as having the turntable pitch at the middle mark right? I have 1210 MK5's. How is keylock useful?


Keylock is to keep from changing the pitch of the song when changing speed. Soo's demonstration above will show also why keylock is used.
Audio1 4:27 AM - 7 December, 2010
Quote:
I fucking hate keylock! Do you guys really use that? All it does is limit mixing faster songs that aren't in the same bpm range. Why does a dj really need it? Keylock is the same as having the turntable pitch at the middle mark right? I have 1210 MK5's. How is keylock useful?
WOW.
Audio1 4:28 AM - 7 December, 2010
Quote:
There is alot that many DJ's have to learn about DJing in general. music theory would be one very important thing.
I wrote this earlier and I wasnt too far off.
Dirty Digits 4:41 AM - 7 December, 2010
Quote:
I fucking hate keylock! Do you guys really use that? All it does is limit mixing faster songs that aren't in the same bpm range. Why does a dj really need it? Keylock is the same as having the turntable pitch at the middle mark right? I have 1210 MK5's. How is keylock useful?

Amazing.
DJ Tecniq 5:26 AM - 7 December, 2010
LOL..I never really used it I know that when it's enabled you lose a good useful amount of pitch range to mix in other songs. Maybe i'll try it out sometime. I usually mix faster than the songs originally played with keylock on I find it more difficult to mix cause the pitch can only go so far with it enabled limiting mixing songs that are much faster then what's originally playing. For example i have a 90 bpm song playing and want to mix in a 100 bpm and with keylock on it won't allow you to mix that high. With it off it's possible. Am I not correct..lol? I've never used it but a few times when friends had it on but I prefer it off to mix higher bpm's.
Audio1 5:45 AM - 7 December, 2010
@Teqnic - No.
Audio1 5:45 AM - 7 December, 2010
Tecniq, I meant.
Audio1 5:54 AM - 7 December, 2010
@Tecniq - Key Lock has nothing to do with BPM range. It locks the original pitch of the song. If you have a song that is at 90bpm with keylock on, You can pitch it up to the highest setting on your turntable or CDJ and it will maintain the original key of the track. It has nothing to do with a 90bpm song mixing with a 100 bpm one. Sometimes you have to know your own limitations. 90 to 100 bpm can be done between a few songs gradually. Unsure what the hurry is.
Dirty Digits 5:56 AM - 7 December, 2010
DJ Tecniq 6:41 AM - 7 December, 2010
Quote:
@Tecniq - Key Lock has nothing to do with BPM range. It locks the original pitch of the song. If you have a song that is at 90bpm with keylock on, You can pitch it up to the highest setting on your turntable or CDJ and it will maintain the original key of the track. It has nothing to do with a 90bpm song mixing with a 100 bpm one. Sometimes you have to know your own limitations. 90 to 100 bpm can be done between a few songs gradually. Unsure what the hurry is.
I understand it has nothing to do with that but when I tested it with keylock on and put the turntable pitch all the way down i can't mix certain higher bpm's that i normally could with it off. Maybe my pitch is fucked up on my tables i dunno.
DJ Tecniq 6:44 AM - 7 December, 2010
For example in that video when you have it off you have more ability to mix higher bpm's. Am i still wrong?
DJ Tecniq 6:49 AM - 7 December, 2010
I meant "I can't mix higher bpm's that I normally can when it's on"
Dirty Digits 6:59 AM - 7 December, 2010
Quote:
Am i still wrong?

Yes

Key lock is about controlling pitch fluctuation, the actual note played being sounding higher or lower depending on the percentage of the pitch on your turntable (or CD turntable).

BPM is about speed of the song being played, exactly how many beats are played in the span of 60 seconds, start to finish.

Maintaining the original key through a function like key lock has no effect on the overall speed of the record being played.

A -8% decrease in pitch results in the same BPM with the key lock turned on or off.
DJ Tecniq 7:06 AM - 7 December, 2010
Really? Last time i tried keylock I did not get that result it slowed the track down. I'll do a mix tommorrow and see.
DJ Art Pumpin Payne 8:59 AM - 7 December, 2010
I recently started using Keylock (after being dogged in a mix I posted) and one drawback that may hinder you is if you know a song lyrically sometimes it messes you up slightly. You get the same beats but sometimes the vocals sound like they are a tiny bit faster/slower than the beat, if that makes sense.

It doesn't matter much on new stuff but on songs that you have been mixing for years and know inside and out, keylock does sound a little weird and may mess you up.
Dj-M.Bezzle 2:44 PM - 7 December, 2010
Quote:
I fucking hate keylock! Do you guys really use that? All it does is limit mixing faster songs that aren't in the same bpm range. Why does a dj really need it? Keylock is the same as having the turntable pitch at the middle mark right? I have 1210 MK5's. How is keylock useful?



lol after reading this thread and another one youve poste din ive finally figured it out.....you dont know the difference between pitch and key do you?
Dj-M.Bezzle 2:46 PM - 7 December, 2010
or BPM and Key
Dj-M.Bezzle 2:48 PM - 7 December, 2010
Are you confusing Key lock with quartz lock??
djchriscruz 3:00 PM - 7 December, 2010
Quote:
I fucking hate keylock! Do you guys really use that? All it does is limit mixing faster songs that aren't in the same bpm range. Why does a dj really need it? Keylock is the same as having the turntable pitch at the middle mark right? I have 1210 MK5's. How is keylock useful?


You're thinking pitchlock.

Keylock keeps the vocals from sounding like the chipmunks when you bump the pitch all the way to +8. I personally always keep keylock on because it's a pet peeve of mine when I hear a mix too out of range and the vocals sound like chipmunks or retarded monsters(-8)
Dj-M.Bezzle 3:08 PM - 7 December, 2010
Quote:

I personally always keep keylock on because it's a pet peeve of mine when I hear a mix too out of range and the vocals sound like retarded monsters(-8)


Does keylock somehow prevent southern rap from being played through your setup lol
djchriscruz 3:27 PM - 7 December, 2010
^^^No club owners and management do.
Dirty Digits 6:23 PM - 7 December, 2010
lmao
DJ Tecniq 6:38 PM - 7 December, 2010
Quote:
I recently started using Keylock (after being dogged in a mix I posted) and one drawback that may hinder you is if you know a song lyrically sometimes it messes you up slightly. You get the same beats but sometimes the vocals sound like they are a tiny bit faster/slower than the beat, if that makes sense.

It doesn't matter much on new stuff but on songs that you have been mixing for years and know inside and out, keylock does sound a little weird and may mess you up.
Yeh man I have had keylock on before and i find it more difficult to match beats, almost like it takes more time. With it off I can match a beat quicker. Does that make sense?
Dj-M.Bezzle 6:43 PM - 7 December, 2010
Quote:
Does that make sense?


not really
DJ Art Pumpin Payne 6:48 PM - 7 December, 2010
Quote:
Quote:


Does that make sense?


not really

i just thought of best way to explain it - mixing with keylock is like mixing a song with a live drummer - feels like a little "float" on the song
DJ Tecniq 6:49 PM - 7 December, 2010
I think i just need to get used to it. I'll try a mix today with keylock on and report back.
Dj-M.Bezzle 7:24 PM - 7 December, 2010
Quote:
Quote:


Quote:



Does that make sense?


not really

i just thought of best way to explain it - mixing with keylock is like mixing a song with a live drummer - feels like a little "float" on the song


The way i wuold explain it is imagine pressing a key on a piano, the noise it makes has is the key, now hit the next key, that noise has a key. Now hit that 1st key in a rythem over and over, thats your BPM, now keep that rythm and move to the next key, the BPM is the same but the key changed. If you enabled keylock it would sound like yuo were still pushing that 1st key at the same rate
Dj-M.Bezzle 7:24 PM - 7 December, 2010
that sounded alot clearer in my head
DJ Tecniq 4:46 AM - 10 December, 2010
Okay reporting back about keylock. It is much easier for me to match beats using it i love it now I can create much tighter blends and matching a beat is relatively easier now within seconds. It's crazy that I've had serato for bout 3 yrs now and never really used it lol..But you have to understand i was spinning vinyl before serato and there was no keylock. So hearing the vocals speed up when cued in my headphones is how it originally was and got used to that. When I tried using keylock i did not get that result the first time. LOL sorry for my lack of knowledge but there is no denying my skill as I'm a pretty good dj. But my question is. Is it necessary to use keylock all the time? Do you use it through your whole set? I'd rather use it all the time what do you guys think?
Lawrence 9:48 AM - 14 December, 2011
Yep, I use Keylock thru the whole set and it doesn't appear to be a prob and I do the harmonic mixing thing but find I spend more time looking for a suitable keyed song to play than I need to.
Was wondering, rather than chosing the next best matched keyed track should I just be aware of with keys DO NOT go together and avoid those instead? ie +3 ie 6A > 9A.

If there are others I would appreciate it if you could let me know.
cheers