I read somewhere that clubs would charge a redlinning fee to the dj's. But that requires a soundguy to monitor the dj.

I am the soundguy monitoring the DJ.

Then tell them that at the beggining of the night you will set the levels and make sure they are good. Then if you catch him redlining you turn it down and charge him $10.

I'm frustrated to no end, last weekend I went up to one DJ at least 10 times in the 1 hour he played telling him to get it out of the red. I'm the opening DJ (/resident/sound guy), it sounds just right when I level the sound board.

I suppose I could get management permission to switch it to another audio source and shut off his sound board and microphone.

I don't know if $10 would help, his buddy is the promoter, and they make it rain $500 off the stage every night they're there...

It's $10 an incident. Not for the night. Make him sign a contract to it if you have to. But be sure he knows that redlining will not be tolerated. Put the money aside and use it to pay for a new mixer. Once he loses 60 bucks a night for being a retard he will catch on. Then your problem is solved.

Tell them if you see any red light at all, your going to get Marcelus (pulp fiction) on their ass.

I'm not all that tough looking. I think I'm gonna talk to management about a combination of the redline fee plus just turning off their mixer (and going to a premixed CD until the next DJ hooks up)

you can use psychology more effectively - keep the dj monitor really hot, or start with it lower and slowly turn it up through the night.

Or a sign on the mixer that says "Attention DJS: $10 charge any time there is a red light on the mixer master or channel. Stay in the greens," :)

I played at a club before that had a metal plate bolted down on the faders. lol

At my club, MANAGEMENT, gets on my case if I let any DJ redline. The can see the levels from their office and if they notice it's too loud or if they're redlining, the manager will text me in heartbeat.

One of the other DJ's always redlines and he gets mad cause I tell him to lower it all the time. There's been times when I lower the volume from the console so much that the DJ gets mad. I tell him I won't put it back up until he lowers his volume! hahaha I can be a dick and even threaten to kick him off the DJ booth. lol

you can play mind games with them, talk to who ever is going to play as they are setting up and be like "the guy before you was clipping his mixer you believe that?funny they call themselves djs and they cant keep mixer out of the red" then he will awkwardly laugh and agree and hopefully not do it

Do you guys have compressor limiters inline with the mixer and the PA, you can set these so that no matter how loud the mixer goes the PA is not driven to hard. These devices are usually lockable too.

a compressor limiter wont help his individual line gains from red lining causing distortion before it even gets to the master though. I have seen plates to bolted over the gains. Another option is pop the faceplate off and maybe pull the gain knobs totally out, after you have them set to a desired level of course

Wouldnt that affect performance though, mabye i was taught differently but arent the EQs kind important for mixing??

yeah but we are not blocking the eq, just the top gain control, the eq bands are still adjustable

First thing is you need to get them a loud monitor so they stop turning it up so they can hear it. Next get them a headphone amp cause alot of DJs turn up the levels on the gains so they get a stronger signal in the headphones. Best thing you could do get a monitor for them that you control. Turn that sucker up so they are forced to turn it down. Problem solved.

you could always put them in a odessey coffin with a laptp case, thats what mine are in and i couldnt get to those damn gain knobs if i tried to its aggrivating

Tell the next dj while he's setting up to keep an eye on the levels, if it goes into the red too much, the owners of the club won't rehire. Let them know many a big name dj has not been back to the club because they couldn't keep their levels in line...honestly, if the place is nice enough to have an in house sound tech, the club must be doing well and would seem to be a place everyone in the local area would want to dj at, they'd have to listen...

You will look tough in their eyes when you put a .38 in their mouth and say "wanna turn down the gain, punk?!"

in clint eastwood's voice

I've got a sticker that says-

"ANY OTHER COLOUR OTHER THAN GREEN - GET OFF"

Thats along the top of my 68 above the channel inputs.

Then next to my master LED's it says-

"A little orange going out is fine as long as inputs are GREEN".

Apart from kicking them off the decks or educating them thers is not alot can be done with these AMATURE dj's.

Thats why i hate so much gain on the 68 inputs but also love the way there is no more gain they can add at master(only attenuation). So, as long as inputs are green there will be no problem on the 68.

put some tape over the red lights and presto chango, never redline again!!

lol... black nailpolish over the LEDs and you'll never pay a dime!

tell them ahead of time you will turn the sound off if they redline.

its like when homer puts the tape over his engine light and thinks his engine problems are gone. lol

I think I came up with an idea, if I can get the DJ on board with it - lower the Serato master output knob on the screen - that way even with the channel gains maxed, it shouldn't produce clipping levels.

yoo.. on the real i have been known to crank my channel gains is it really tht tht terrible?

its really that terrible...

Ill be honest i dont think i FULLY understan the concept myself because on alot of mixers ill be mixing, have everything sounding great, all in the green then like 2 minutes in itll SPIKE to the red once or twice, I dont really see how to prevent that

thats because the song might have a high part, there are alot of edm songs with really low volume intros that you have to turn gains up to hear then when the bass drops you have to go back down on the gains, its tough to get gains all equal on the fly

upload.wikimedia.org

The problem with clipping is the inherent (but bad) compression it creates. An active compressor like Driverack 260 is like a delayed gain - if the gain is too high, it will lower the gan until there's no clipping. When the average signal level gets too low, it raises the gain back up again (except in the case where it happens so fast that it cannot back off, giving you a "CLIP" message, outputting distortion.

The problem with a mixer clipping is that the waveforms are "cut flat" on the tops and bottoms, meaning once you take it to the next stage of signal processing (master out, to sound console (optional), to compressor/EQ, to crossover, to amplifiers, to speakers) is that the source signal is already degraded.

I'd say the closest thing for a modern DJ to understand would be to take a 320kbps audio file, convert it to 64kbps, and convert it back to 320kbps - then add a bunch of extra bass EQ to make up for the lost signal. It sounds like garbage.

wow thanks

see i understand the technical aspects of it but what i dont get is ive played with DJs like you (dont get offended im just using this as an example not a negative) who flip their lid ANYTIME the lights touch a red....if im 3 minutes into a song and its been green the whole time and i get 1 or 2 seconds of loudness that makes it hit red for a second that i didnt know would happen (because i dont have time to watch the lights and preview the entire length of the song on that paticular night\mixer) i don think its A) my fault B ) a big deal

Now i DO totally understand being mad at djs who just luve in the red the whole night

I thought the red lights meant "super party mode".

no i stay chillin in the red lol

now i might not any more

LOLed me

fuckin rookies not knowin how to use a mixer.

not a rookie if u go to any spot in ac n nyc or anywhere else i have worked.... 10 on the master and n channel gains at ridic levels
the sound guys regulate tht via a soundboard, then at the driverack, then at the amps

youtube any major dj and look at their mixer. most are so in the red that the lights dont flucuate at all, they are all constantly fully lit

i redlined my fadecrosser and it brokeded

+1

I'm guilty myself of running channels into the red (in occassional blips) but my master would only be halfway up anyhow. I always turn my master up at the sound console, not on the DJ mixer...

Clipping:
Watchwww.youtube.com

hey guys im new to DJING, is this what clipping is?
Watchwww.youtube.com

N

To a point, but the DJs I'm talking about crank the channels so high that it's either 1 red or 2 reds but never lower unless there's a full break in the music...

Here's a video of Danny Daze playing 'Tear the fuxing mixer up.'

Watchwww.youtube.com

lol... he is doin a fine job in my book

im not a big knowledge person, but would it make a difference if u turned town the gain on the amps if its in a locked area?

Lol... thats MJQ in Atlanta.

GREEN should mean "$$$", YELLOW should mean "WARNING" and RED should mean "FIRED"

see it the time......they are wak djs usually......and this proves it.

AM??

No - turning down the amps won't do much but protect the speakers from blowing, the sound coming into the amp is already distorted...

I have always tried to work like this in clubs and mobiles:

Turn your knobs (mixer, amp, etc) 3/4 up. If you are in the green or yellow fine. If it's going red, back it down...but if you have to be in the red to get the volume you want, you need to consider buying different equipment....

There are too many ways to get distortion, starting from a bad mp3 file to too much volume coming out of serato, to disortion out of the mixer from the bad mp3 or too much volume, too much bass, to the console (in some situations), processing and finally to the amps and speakers.

I'm not really sure how everyone else mixes, but I try to use the up and downs all the way up to 10. I use the channel gains to balance the tracks to try to get an equal signal. I try to avoid going into the red on the channel mixer and I use master volume to get to the level the club wants (or appropriate for mobile).

I have been to clubs where their volume is pumped up so loud coming out of the mixer, you can't really use the master volume too high or the channel faders, so listening in the headphones is an issue. But generally, this doesn't happen too much...but if it does, as a dj and a concerned operator of that clubs equipment, I would request that the take a look at the set up for the future.

I agree that most major djs don't care too much about sound quality, only volume. I have done sound at old school raves, and it was somewhat ridiculous how the headliners would treat the equipment....

just because a big dj does it doesn't mean it's right lol
lucky for some of you rane mixers have good limiting and dont sound like sh%& when pushed into clipping

don't be a dummy, stay in the green

+1


If the signal is clipped enough you could still blow the speakers with enough power. Picture the speaker moving in and out following the sine wave of the audio signal. If the signal is clipped, the top is flat, and the speaker remains held in a static position. www.google.ca

With no movement, the voicecoil can get very hot, and cook! Imagine a clipped signal while pushing 1000 watts through the speaker = toasty.

Get a loud Dj monitor, the Serato master idea won't work if it's a Dj who just turns it back up when you leave the booth, especially if he's that ignorant to think you won't know.

The plate I've seen at before as well, it's unfortunate but maybe popping out the gains is the hard choice.




Do you mix with the gains for each track? A friend of mine does this, it can be dangerous thing to do since the more people come in to the club + ear fatigue etc. will cause you to get louder and louder as the night progresses and up goes those gains.



I set my Serato to 12 o'clock, gains to 12, hit my rails to 10 and then adjust the master. The autogain on Serato does a good job for the most part, so if need be I either adjust right in Serato if a track is that obviously different in volume, or give the gain a nudge but right back to 12 next track.

I like to have a lot of headroom so usually when i set the master, I set it so it's good and powerful, but has a lot of give for later on in the night. I condition people to the volume from the moment they walk into the club.

But LOL I'm usually the opposite of what sound guys complain about, I leave it at a level where if it needs more boost, it's usually the manager/owner coming in and asking me to pump it up because they like the music.

RED = bad

Do you mix with the gains for each track? A friend of mine does this, it can be dangerous thing to do since the more people come in to the club + ear fatigue etc. will cause you to get louder and louder as the night progresses and up goes those gains.


No I mean I cue the track and I try to make sure that the peaks are about the same and then I mix....I know what you mean about progressively getting loud, but I don't mix using only the gain....I use the up and down channel slider, but I push it to the top by the end of my transition, but I have already pre adjusted the volume using the gain knob so there's no noticeable difference in volume. As I mix, I adjust some EQ on the fly.

I never realized how technical this actually is....

I am the same way, I will start off quieter and eventually I will have an owner or GM say "its time to crank it a lil"....I am of the opinion that if people come in and the music is too loud, they are less likely to hit the dancefloor early...


I set my Serato to 12 o'clock, gains to 12, hit my rails to 10 and then adjust the master. The autogain on Serato does a good job for the most part, so if need be I either adjust right in Serato if a track is that obviously different in volume, or give the gain a nudge but right back to 12 next track.

I like to have a lot of headroom so usually when i set the master, I set it so it's good and powerful, but has a lot of give for later on in the night. I condition people to the volume from the moment they walk into the club.

But LOL I'm usually the opposite of what sound guys complain about, I leave it at a level where if it needs more boost, it's usually the manager/owner coming in and asking me to pump it up because they like the music.

Gotcha.





In total agreement. I always feel like a douche if it's beginning of the night and I'm blasting out peoples ears in a club that has yet to fill. Kind of like the Dj who plays the high energy bangers at 10pm when nobody is ready for them or hard electro in a pub that holds 100.

LEGAL terms... Since your the sound guy for the night club, I would either have your owner OR you go and talk to a legal lawyer as to making a OFFICIAL contract. And on that contract, to make the terms that if they break anything is in (speakers, amps, mixers) on the nights that they are playing a gig, then they will be in charge of all costs.. And if they choose not to, they would be sue'd and have their company sent to the B.B.B. (Better Business Bureau) and hopefully that might scare them enough to catch on...

They are responsible for replacing anything that breaks by contract. Problem is, you don't realize the speakers blown until long after the promoters counted their money and out the door.

Plus these guys are not "company" promoters. It's all cash money, not cashiers checks and money orders..

+1
try n get a dollar off some of these sleezeballs

For non babysitter status, it seems like you'll need to go into the guts of a mixer and either remove gain knobs or insert a limiter on each input pre crossfader.

The limiter idea sounds fun, but not as much fun as it's worth, so I vote removing (or burying) the gain knobs.

DJ AM, laidback luke, steve angello, congorock, ive seeon lots of guys do it
they are far from wack djs. they may just not know better or no one will say anything to them

I assume for most of us the clipping usually occurs during the middle of a mix (when both basslines are competing for peak signal) so proper EQing at this time is essential unless you have an immense amount of headroom... but be careful when setting the gain structure on a single channel, without taking into account the second (or third) channel sources being mixed in.

It would probably take something drastic like a mixer modification that killed audio completely above a certain threshold (would not be all that hard to do) to get some people paying any attention to gain structure.

Adding to the problem, of course: the amount of popular music that is blatantly distorted no matter what level it's played at. (Exhibit A: Rihanna "Who's That Chick").

Thats a whole other thread - popular music not mastered correctly....

7-8 years ago when we used to get vinyl pressed all the time, the guy at the mastering plant was a seriously old guy and always complained about how music was becoming over compressed and limited. I wonder what he'd say now....

the same @bigboy

regarding this thread: It seems many of today's DJ's can differenciate between monitor levels and master levels. They figure by redlining, they are doing something right, when usually its the monitors that arent loud enough.

I have done some testing of the DJM800 mixer under typical club situations, where both the channel levels and master levels are in the red (over) on the djm800. Using a sine wave signal and an oscilloscope, it can be seen that there is actually a LOT of headroom above the red levels. Clipping does not occur even when in the red, unless we are talking gross over-gain. If you don't believe me, try it for yourself. Pioneer were very smart when designing this mixer. However, the equipment downstream of the mixer has to be able to handle the very large signal and this may be where clipping could also occur.

lmfao

no lie?
wonder if a 57 is the same

lol

^ crown amps n yorkville speakers

Interesting. I remember the old Rane MP24 had a knob to adjust the master output LED. Basically you could make it look like the mixer was redlining, when there was actually still alot of headroom and clean output left.

Maybe this has already been answered, I didn't read all the responses.....for the DJM-800 specifically....turn the attenuation screw down that's on the back of the mixer. That way when he goes into the red, it's not really outputing a clipped signal, even though he is in the red. I have a DJM-600 and I noticed if the attenuation screw is turn all the way up (I.E. no attenuation), the mixer will output a clipped signal if you get close to the red zones.

They do it that way because for that mixer specifically the headphone "master" volume is tied directly to the meter levels. I.E. You turn down the master volume fader on the mixer, the headphone master volume goes down. The attenuation screw enables the headphones to be loud, but not blast out the next device in the connection chain (i.e. sound board, premixer, amplifier, or whatever).

@ bounce thanks for the advice!!

happens last week,some dude was playing way over the redline and it all got distorted ,in 30 minutes i gotta go up and tell him to keep it below red about 20 times,this guy dont listen,then i go get 6 of the biggest security guy to pull his ass of the booth after only about 40 minutes to his set

www.facebook.com

The ecler evo 4 has a function where you can create/enter a password and cap the output. So wherever they twist the gain knobs-tough for them- internally the mixer will only let the levels get as hot as you (soundguy) think the system can handle safely. I don't know if other brands have that function..but it's a good selling point for Ecler as a club install. I don't work for them or anything like that-I just own one and love it.

nice.

Ya know, I'm ONLY a sound guy/producer... I can tell you all this: If you can't figure out gain structure, you shouldn't be anywhere near powered music. I recently bid a job to install a system in a club in my hometown. The guy knew exactly 0 about wattage: voltage, impedence; and how they react to each other, but he had well over $15K in amps and processors. Not to mention fine italian custom made speakers.. < Bullshit. They're good, and clearer than any I've ever heard, but easily on their way out with the way he treats them.

I have never heard of needing more than one Xover for any one complete system.

Along with all that, he was really convinced that more wattage equalled more volume.

I'm just venting. Fact is this: from the perspective of someone who knows "show tricks" i.e. - walls of Marshall Amps (with only one turned on); changing LED colors on a DJ mixer, and a myriad of other crap, if you're clipping the system you are damaging the system. Using compressors and limiters to safeguard is a lazy way of mixing. Using gain knobs, from the source signal all the way to amp gain controls is your only way of doing it properly. Also, you'd have to know that by comping the music you are FURTHER squashing the dynamics that were originally placed into the music thereby leaving the listeners with music that is compressed even more than a radio DJ's mix. Compressors have only one place - sustain for stringed instruments. Limiters are a good sign that a singer or MC cannot control mic .dynamics.

For DJ's who record their own stuff (Dubstep...) Multitrack your stuff that has to be so loud that it clips. Split a source signal so it inputs twice into a mixer thereby giving you twice as much signal at lower voltage (faders can ride lower and you get the same amount of volume)

If I was FOH in a club that ran DJ's I would most likely quit. Having only one fader to worry about is boring. And I'm not chasing a kid around all night because he can't trim a signal properly. Honestly, if you have a DJ for the night, FOH should be cancelled. Anyone who works with sound equipment should know what red lights mean: too much voltage

i always start off my set a little under the red knowing when the next track is mixed in itl bump up a bit and then i tend to ride the gains/eq for the rest of the time to stay out of the red
ive played on systems with a plate across the gains, to be honest i unscrewed them and put them back on at the end of the night lol

its hard work for the engineer though as not everyones the same, so if the club system or mixer is set to never go into the red on a average sound level with a idiot playing then someone else makes sure they never go in the red the sound will be alot quieter because of it
i use to lend my home setup out for a smallish bar mainly for monitoring , the amp was too powerfull for the speakers but i told whoever was playing that night that what i set it to was as loud as it can be safely set to, alot of them left it but some just cranked it right up,
one night i came back a few hours later and the monitors were turnt to face the crowd and the amp wasnt far off full volume, i warned him and turnt it down, 20 mins later it was back up so i just switched it off and told the manager i wouldnt lend him my gear if he was playing there again.
again, its another case of the twats ruining it for people who know what there doing

you could always get a distortion pedal to stamp on thats in line with the booth monitor if the dj keeps doing it so he actually thinks its him making it sound like that due to redlining lol

Distortion pedal? Now that's smart-ass-clever. Make it a cheap Behringer so it sounds that much worse, LOL!!!!

best way to look at it:

your mixer in the red is like your car's rev's being in the red: it means change gears or you will blow something.

I have zero patience with dudes who don't watch their gain. I am a head DJ at one club and a 2-time a week resident at another. I tell them once at the start of the night: if I walk into your booth and I see reds on anything I'm cutting the power, telling people we are shutting you down cuz you're a shitty DJ, and I will go on. Luckily, only one idiot was stupid enough to do it and he hasn't been hired anywhere I'm affiliated with since.

In my case of being the sound guy for the DJs... it SOUNDED distorted in the monitors!! I mean they not only were clipping the Rane SL1 (the gains IN serato were cranked) the mixer gains were also cranked, not to mention the eq knobs even cranked up a bit!! It was horrible!!

that's disgusting... how do people not HEAR that it sounds like crap??? i swear i have to explain to most people the science of why clipping is bad because they can't hear that it sounds like shit on a stick...
a buddy of mine will just go up to the offending DJ, stand right next to him and yell in his ear in time with the peaks of the song "RED! RED! RED! RED! RED! RED....."

people r assholes

On some mixers, the red lights don't even matter very much. Such as on a Rane 68...it's 32-bit floating point DSP within the mixer (a theoretical dynamic range of something like 1024dB), and the output control is "attenuate only".

There's other mixers that clip internally sometimes with no red lights shown anywhere. The early Pioneer "digital" mixers were standout examples (DJM-500, 600, 3000). It was very easy on those mixers to have multiple sources coming in, all well below the red zone on the input meters, but then have clipping happening in the mixer when mixing them.

The gain controls in Scratch Live have been a source of "sound guy" frustration for years. The newer hardware interfaces seems to have more dynamic range, but adjusting the Scratch Live master gain knob past 12:00 (or cranking the individual gain knobs for the decks) when using an SL-1 or 57 is pretty much a guarantee of Super Shitty Sound.

My point here is that familiarity with the characteristics/limitations of the specific equipment being used is a lot more useful for everyone than a simple obsession over "red indicator lights".

+100 mark!!

its mostly like use ur ears assholes!! If it sounds like shit in the green its just as bad as if it sounds like shit being over driven

I once had this problem with a main resident at a club I used to work at. While the main system limiting kept the speakers safe, it was a dreadful over driven noise that came out where the channel gains were at full lock all night!
Solution... Fitted a DBX 1046 between the CD Players and the mixer (1: CD1L, 2:CD1R, 3:CD2L, 4: CD2R). With the channel VU's in green/amber it just sat there totally transparently. However the second the 1st red light came on, the channel's signal dropped 8:1 with a VERY slow release time... Being between source and mixer, not only did it affect the main output, but also the booth and headphones!!! After fitting it, I never heard a distorted note again (well except for him screaming expletives every time he triggered it)!

^ I see a lot of people who could use something like that...

I don't get what that would do about DJ's abusing gain-control levels.

The way you describe it, it sounds like the compressor would just react more to loudly-mastered CD's.

Sorry should have been a bit clearer. This was on an old formula sound mixer that, being modular, had inserts on each channel module. The idea was for if the channel was used as a mic input you could route it through outboard post eq/gain but pre mix. Unfortunately you don't get that luxury on DJ mixers nowadays...

You would think a gear geek like Joel Zimmerman (Deadmau5) would know about this...

Watchwww.youtube.com

Everything in the top red constantly...

Or he knows something we don't ;)

o_0;; - First five seconds, nothing but red.
1 Minute later: RED.
2 Minutes later, still red-lining.

and the pio's run hot. i have one myself. i had to keep reminding myself to keep that in mind when i played out.

From my experience people DJs run their gains into the red so they can hear it louder in the headphones. Really these types need a monitor or a headphone amp.

But, but.........he's NOT a dj????

exactly and its that red light check dude that drives me crazy.

we're acting like this avg at best metering system in 1-2k mixer are all that accuate. c'mon now.


these dudes are the worst people ever.

OMG

Red = dead

That added a lot of useless...

Noob Question: I use a SL2 box with a Pioneer DJM 350. With gain knobs set at 0 the channel levels on the mixer still usually always end up in the red, meaning I can't turn up the master past a certain level without it clipping/distorting (a very low level, say just a bit past halfway). Within Serato the output of the tracks themselves don't even get into the yellow. Just wanna know why this is so...if its a headroom issue or what? Know Pioneer mixers aren't really known for the quality of their output as much as say a Rane or A&H but I never knew it was that bad. (Yes, it's a bedroom model but still...)

pioneer mixers are decent... make sure the inputs on your mixer are set to line.. and not phono..

line or cd

They're on line (CD)...its not a big issue. Just wanted to know why the levels went into the red so easily.

oh ok.. just making sure..

turn down the master output in Serato to give yourself a little wiggle room (nm)

There is no hope for the industry. I honestly can't believe the lack of knowledge demonstrated from "djs" on this forum.

in all my booths i have a " DONT EVEN GET CLOSE TO THE RED" sticker

I dont know about anyone else.
But ive considered mixing an ongoing series of constant checking, rechecking and adjusting
(talking about mixing, more than likely dance music, riding longer mixes and such)

which is why I dont understand how it gets to that point.
(dont get me wrong Ive slipped into the red before) but cant people HEAR IT coming before they see it reflected on the LEDs?

when I was coming up I used to watch the dance djs i looked up to constantly adjusting the trim, eq and faders like a juggling act.
this was not you typical "knob twisting" although it might have mistakingly birthed the fad.
but on each bar theyd take the hi's down on track one, swapping it for the hi's on track two, and eventually work the mix until finally track 2 would be inferior to track one and basically repeat the waltz of adjusting all the levels to make the 2 tracks seemingly indistiguishable from eachother.
all the while watching, listening to their levels... using THEIR BOOTH MONITOR to listen for the most subtle signs of overdriven sound or phasing elements from a track mixed too precisely and how to adjust fire for that.

now it seems like its stare at screen, i dont need headohones, i dont need a monitor
and people are shocked that sure the mixes are lined up but everything else, the sublte art of blending elements from track a to b and back again is now just a taste of FUCK ALL my hands are too busy making heart hands.

when i see a DJ, on whatever DVS taking the time to spin tracks like he is a producer using the full spectrum to create a mix, not just play a track, and another I really enjoy it.

I do.

It's because they don't know, or they don't care.

I have a feeling it's a mixture of both, like some DJ's jacking the highs up because they can't perceive/hear them (one because the speakers are aimed away from them. Two because they've got hearing loss as is).

Yup, lots of DJs with hearing loss. A friend of mine wears custom earbuds taking out about -25db. Its a pain to work with him in the booth, he´s running monitors at full output constantly, and way to sharp EQs. I´ve convinced him to try out -12db buds, hope that helps. He´s a very talented guy, great sets, but damn, that monitor is killing me....

I also wear earbuds. I experienced tinnitus once after attending a party my freshman year of college several years ago and told myself I never wanted to subject myself to that again, plus I want to protect my hearing.

Why don't you use earbuds too? I really enjoy using earplugs while spinning.

the 3 legged race that is master gain vs booth gain is entire post on its own.

floor gets louder, booth gets louder, headpones get louder
repeat
floor gets louder, booth gets louder, headpones get louder
repeat
floor gets louder, booth gets louder, headpones get louder
repeat
floor gets louder, booth gets louder, headpones get louder
repeat

only if you got good monitors.



I add a 4th step, Look up to the amp rack and see where the levels are on processor.

Looking into it nik, looking into it.

Lock up the amps, and give them FULL control over the....

MONITORS.....

I have done a lot of hair pulling trying figuring this shit out... Thankfully no blown speakers yet though. I'm no seasoned professional when it comes to live sound but I understand sound and gain structures and the basics of how a system needs to be run to make it sound good and not be damaged.

We normally run a Pioneer DJM-700 and fortunately it does have a lot of headroom. This is great because even if dickhead DJ thinks it's an awesome idea to crank everything into the red it wont be sending a massively distorted signal out of the mixer unless he is really fucking it up. BUT it will certainly be sending out a very very hot signal. It's at this point that it will result in distortion when it reaches the DBX Driverack PA+ and the peaking light will definitely tell you that on the unit. The attenuation switch on the back of the mixer is my best friend at this point giving me a -6dB on the master output. I tell my DJs to keep it at +7dB max and this usually results in a pretty clean signal. I even go as far as to lower the gain through the compressor on the PA+ to give me an even lower signal to work with. Usually at this point I can tweak the amps and make it sound pretty nice. It's really that master out to whatever unit is next part that makes everything fall to pieces. I think I need to get a standard mixer in between the DJ mixer and PA+ to properly control everything.

I provide sound for many djs and the only fix I could find that truly works is VERY LOUD MONITORS blasting close into their ears so loud it makes them uncomfortable. It keeps them out of the red and my sound is clean and my main speakers are safe from damage.

How loud is "very loud"? The reason some of them probably crank things so high is that theu "can't hear it" due to hearing loss incurred over the years.

Louder than the perceived loudness of the main system.

This may be true but its their personal problem not mine.

Some djs I don't even give this option too, they may just turn it down and turn the mains up. Then it defeats MY purpose....lol

Oh, hells nah...

****Having a Chuck Chillout flashback****

Wait, he does that ?

Use an Allen & Heath mixer. Problem solved. Much better sounding than any Pioneer mixer. Warm, analogue sound with plenty of non-distorting headroom.

Problem solved ? really ?

And how exactly does that help solve this situation ? I don't think you have a clear understanding of the topic.

I used to love my A&H xone 92. I do agree it sounds better, but I like the DJM2000/900 better now. ISO on all 3 bands and not just hi/low, every control midi, built in effects adjustable fader and EQ curves, DJM's are just nicer to play on.

Off topic, This is not about which mixer MAY sound better.

shut up, stop crossing your legs.

that was actually kinda funny.....

I once owned an old POS numark mixer with the built in kaoss pad.
Anyways when the input signal barely went past green the entire output would cut out to almost nothing.

it was.... LOL

Haha, yea, just joshing pdidy. ;)

But ever try to turn up the gains on a pioneer vs xone? Xone's take a lot to distort. Playing on the djm600,800...they distort pretty easily. Xones have something like 22db of headroom. Pretty insane if you ask me.

Doesnt matter. Your still gonna have issues with the actual sound system running into the red, overheating, blowing out speakers or amps. Ive also owned an A&H, Pioneer, Numark, Vestax, Gemeni and Rane mixer. I also run a passive system with a DBX PA+.

Your mixer could sound fine, but the actual sound system, thats a different story. The guy with his legs crossed is right lol.

DJM 900 has 19db of headroom and the latest update adds a clip limiter to it.

I'v been saying for years something like this needs to be in DJ mixers, the Denon DNX1700 has a selectable output limiter aswell plus another mixer I can't quite think of at the moment.

When we have guess come in.... part of my job is to make sure the sound system is taken care of.... i have the sound system tuned for the type of even we are having ... We run rane but we do get the occasional request for pio ... when we switch out i have to re tune the room. I have to tell them that anything pass unity is a big NO NO!!! i have to sit there and baby sit and turn down as they get "TURNT UP". We have not had any issues but it does takes alot of watching over.

NM NH NB

The other mixer is an Ecler Evo 5, both mixers require a password to get into the limiter settings which is a good idea.

These newer mixer provide tons of clean loud headroom, but that doesn't mean the sound system in the club can take it. My Rane sixty two is great in that sense as it doesn't distort, but it will push my DBX and amps to run red if I'm not careful.

Finally somebody who understands the basics of gain structure. This is just basic stuff that djs should even know, not just sound professional.

I don't care if your mixer has 1,000,000 giga decibels of headroom......"doesn't matter."

another is big issue i been having is the level of the source coming out the sound card ... i have seen soooo many folks clipping in the software !!!! No matter what you do its gonna clip from that point on...... setting everything up is simple but some folks have never been educated on how to do so....

NM NH NB

i think someone needs to do some basic "HOW TO " videos for sound that just focuses on the Mobile and club dj..... Konix or jaxx care to do some i bet we will send tons of views your way ....

NM NH NB

i know there tons out there for live bands but not one that is simple enough for some of the folks coming in here to understand ..... Like a DJ ANGELO is for scratching ... we need a DJ "---------" for DJ sound structure and set up


NM NH

I tell people " read your manual" or watch "youtube vids" on your gear..... knowing where unity is on your equipment is key. Many people look at me crazy when say that word ... know how to set a compressor limiter/ crossover/eq are a basic skill that we all should know but many of us don't. I don't like the middle of the night face time calls with issues that are basic fix ....

NM NH NB

My EVO4 has a limiter as well. I use it for any guest DJ that gets on it. Damn red riders....

That can help. The DJM900 is an improvement compared to the older Pioneers. I was always the DJ who had to monitor the sound of other DJs. Lots of DJs who like red-riding and distortion. I prefer not to play with limiters if possible.

And true...most DJs do not have a clue on how to approach gain structure, they just over-compenstate with lots of speakers and cross their legs, lol.

First you say Xones 22db of headroom can fix red lining or gain structure issues.
Now you imply one can fix this by over compensating with a lot of speaker.

You would be killing your reputation for knowledge if you had one.

It doesn't solve it. Clipping is clipping.. it's taken me a LONG time (as I mix without monitors generally, late at night so my flatmates can sleep) to get it down fully. Red on channels OR on master will end up distorting/clipping bass or treble generally, sometimes mids and the entire thing too if you are playing tracks mastered to big fat sausages with full spectrum wonky dubstep basses or something.. it might have an 'effect' of overdrive for some 'already distorted' music like breakcore.. but really, don't do it! Let the music speak for itself, don't add distortion layers.. (unless you have effects and proper gain structure with that too).

Anyway a bit of advice:

Red channels = bass or highs (generally in EDM) are clipping a bit. For DNB/Jungle, usually if it mastered properly, it's going to be the bass.

Now, two channels of that.. will DEFINITELY have a red output on the master.

The bass is not blending well, there will be bass clipping.

a) turn the bass down a little (or highs as needed, or mids for loud vocals/ambient noises) with eq.. keep the channels GREEN. Look at the 'level meter' if you have it, like on an A&H Xone 92 - you WANT 0DB. +6DB is 'Acceptable' but you should aim for 0DB. WHICH IS THE FIRST 'BLUE' LIGHT. AIM for green and a little pop into blue (0DB) on each channel. You will probably STILL need to trim bass or treble a little to get the same 0DB on the master out.

Again, with master out, you can go to +6db at worst.. but aim for 0db. If you are playing REAL vinyl (as well as Serato or instead), the odd pop and click from scratches/dust etc will be the loudest noises generally. So at 0db, on the channel, a pop or click might send the signal up to +3 or +6db depending on the severity of the vinyl issue.

Two of these at once are the ONLY acceptable times that you 'should' be hitting +6db or a little over.. and when it happens you should then be pulling the treble down a little to remove the highest parts of the pops/clicks.

It's taken me a LONG time to get gain structure down but it really helps.

I agree with the comment of a headphone amp/preamp out of the mixer.. sometimes the mixer's headphone knob at 10 doesn't cut it when you are trying to keep gain structure and booth + house is blasting.. however I usually just turn the booth down heaps so I can hear SOMETHING of the headphones..

p.s. never mix with headphones to house master/PA.. use the booth on a low volume or two ears in the cans.. sometimes there is a latency with long cable runs or poor venue audio setups which can totally mess you up if you try to mix this way.

I forgot to mention this, but was going to.

Gain structure = as close to unity (0db with a little headroom preferably) throughout ALL YOUR AUDIO EQUIPMENT. So for a mix recording, this means - a) your vinyl is preferably a good pressing and not quiet as crap.. b) your vinyl/digital tune is not red lining maxed out harsh to begin with (Toecutter's double LP.. drove the vinyl engineers insane, all red line digital productions to begin with), c) if the tune IS red lining in SERATO, TURN IT DOWN IN SERATO! Get it to pop into the yellow a little, no more, no less, d) keep Serato volume at the middle/default!! Don't mess around turning Serato master output up or down, e) channels unity, f) master output unity, g) PA/other gear gain structure intact h) recording device, if people aren't going to clip, you can set with only a bit of headroom.. because you know it won't clip!!! If you aren't sure if that next DJ is going to clip out.. you have to set with some bigger headroom. Which ends up ruining the gain structure on your recording when you have to gain/normalise everything that was at a proper volume from the DJs.. just in case ONE of them clips out.

In that way though sometimes it might be better to have a proper unity/gain structure on your MIX RECORDING DEVICE also, instead of giving it extra headroom 'in case'. That way, while you will NOt be able to enjoy listening to the mix that clipped out, the others will sound fine. You can give that clipped mix to the DJ and go 'now you know' and hope they change their ways!!

Digital clipping....anyone who consistently does it...consider yourself lucky you haven't been booted yet. Nothing can salvage a digital clip...analog clipping on the other hand can be "somewhat" contained but definitely not advisable. If they are trying to emulate that distorted sound....filters and effects should be used to achieve that and not gains/trims.

I recorded a club night last night with my SL3.. firstly I will mention at one point the bass was vibrating the SL3 and laptop so hard, I was getting USB dropouts.. I propped them up with my jacket for some padding and worked fine after that, but upon review, I don't think the USB dropouts had any impact on the recording - even though the timer would 'pause' while the program was dropping out. So that's nice to know, the SL3 can keep working through bass hell if just for recording..

Anyway back on topic, recorded this club night, everyone bar one DJ kept a nice gain structure. Along with the one DJ red lining the entire set, he had an MC that kept pushing up the mic until it would feed back a bit as well as contributing to the clipping.. it was a vinyl only night so wasn't as bad as digital clipping, vinyl clip out of a DJM isn't any good either. During his set (which was awesome apart from the gain issues) you could hear on the night as well as on the recording the treble pops of the points where the mixer is clipping out..

but* vinyl clip out of a

Hearing an MC catch feedback from stage monitors....sounds like somebody popping their cherry on stage....unless they were wrecked and just didn't care.

Pretty wrecked/didn't care I think.. and pushing levels up just trying to be heard above the odd DJ or two who thinks redlining is a good thing haha..

Djm 800 has horrible headroom.

It always amazes me how many "top level" DJ's love to go in the red. As the resident DJ and sound guy, it annoys me to see the equipment abused. If its not a headliner, I will walk up on stage and physically turn the mixer down and warn them not to do it again. If they do it again I will turn the system down so low that the crowd starts to get pissed at the dj. Another option is to take down their logo, or just stand right next to them their whole set.

Damn...are you the resident DJ for all North Korean night clubs? Haha. Nice ideas.

And to think, some people actually take "top level DJ" product endorsements seriously. LOL.

hahahah

Why not calibrate the system before hand and just take the master knob off and tape it down/cover it? I've seen this done several times. The DJ ends up having to ask the sound guy to give them more volume if they need it. There needs to be a class in gain structure....

That doesn't prevent what is actually the main sound-quality issue with Pioneer mixers (especially the older ones): if the input gains are anywhere near high enough to put the channel into the red, you run into a severe internal-headroom issue that causes distortion in the mix buss....turning down (or locking down) the master output does nothing to prevent that.

As far as a "class"....nice idea, but learning requires a desire for enlightenment, something absent in the vast majority of DJ's.

Ah didn't know that. You learn something new everyday. And true regarding the majority of DJ's.

+1


I know I noticed when the CDJ2000's came out I was still playing on CD's. And the volume coming out of the CDJ2000's is massive compared to the 1000 or a tech 12. So any idiot wanting more volume will just turn up his gain's. and on the DJM800 with any modern cdj means the gains need to be at 1/4, which lets be honest everyone 12 o clocks them.

IMO, if we're consider 0-10 for the gain knob, serato digital FAT files will be on 1-2 setting (8-9 o clock), quiet files 3-5 (9-11 o clock) and quiet vinyl usually 5-6 (12-1 o clock) and loud vinyl 2-5 (8-11 o clock). With my A&H Xone 92, I let two channels pop lightly in the blue (at 0db), a weak pop (not a solid light is what I mean). I usually have the bass and trebles for both channels at 3-4 (9-11 o clock) so that the bass and trebles don't clip. I then make sure the master output level is not going above +3db, or +6db MAX with a backspin or something like that. Sometimes certain pairs of basses can work well / resonate together and you can push the eq back to 12 o clock for the basses, but mostly having both basses at once will clip a lil, and say for jungle (which I play mostly) the treble can be a bit intense so has to be reigned in a bit..

Redlining channels does not inherently cause distortion. Pioneer mixers have over 20dB of headroom. In experiments using a DJM 600 I could not introduce distortion on an individual channel by trim alone, I had to start cranking the EQs as well. That is no distortion when the mixer shows 6 red lights, +14dB.

Needless to say, you'd have to try really hard to get distortion off of a DJ mixer ... it's far more likely that any distortion is introduced on input to the soundsystem DSP, not all of which have great headroom. A level control between the DJ mixer and DSP as well as a well tuned 0ms attack 3s (or longer!) release limiter on the DSP will eliminate any worries, even if the DJ is "redlining".

Distortion is caused by bad sound guys, not bad DJs.

LOL.

I am not suggesting that DJs should redline and I am certainly not suggesting that compressors or limiters should be used to alter the original musical dynamic. Above it was pointed out that the DJM-600 has a digital signal path. That is not true - it is analog unless the effects are used. While it *could* clip internally, it doesn't, because there is *usually* enough headroom in its analog signal path.

Red LEDs does not = clipping, or distortion of any form, necessarily.

I think the confusion stems from the fact that in the digital realm 0dB is the threshold of clipping - it's more loose in analog since something "must be there to clip it".

I would assume that newer models of mixers perform better than this - but here is proof that redlining does not clip easily. He does demonstrate that using the bass EQ can generate distortion (with trim already at max, lol) Watchwww.youtube.com

LOL.

Read this.

dj.rane.com

I guess the question is, why make an inaccurate led monitoring system.

It's like making a speedometer that stops at 40 Mph.
Sure you can go 55 safely, but you really don't know what your really doing after 40.

It would be pretty cool if they made a led sensitivity adjust. (Like those LED bars you can install)


Personally I like accurate LEDs, I use them quite a bit, especially the monitoring on the 62, I don't even have to normalize live recorded mixes anymore...

I've used nexus mixers probably about 6 times over the last year and found myself in the red constantly, but as mentioned it wasn't that holy shit moment many people paint it to be.
I was constantly trying to dial back the lines and push the master to provide a constant clean signal.

Perfect example.
last year in Japan I was main slot guy at a pretty big room, I was engaged in this tug of war with the lines and master and thought I was doing ok.
The closer came on after me and went right to 1/2 o'clock on all the gain and pinned the mixer in the red.
And it was like someone hit the "loudness" button (remember those?)
It certainly didn't sound distorted or over driven... Maybe a bit harsh (for lack of better terms)

They're not.

They're accounting for what happens internally when two or more audio sources are combined (and therefore cause an increase in levels).

Yes, one channel *by itself* may not be causing clipping the instant a red light comes on, but combine multiple sources all lighting red lights and you'll end up with distortion (especially on older Pioneer mixers, including the DJM-600 mentioned earlier).

That's one of many reasons why I prefer my Xone 62. 1 red light at the very top of the VU meter.

The old Rane MP24z output meter was adjustable.
www.performanceaudio.com

+



You can see how this paradox might be easily remedied if red (via line or master) means you are "danger close" to overdriving the signal which may result in a less than ideal output quality.

Not, sure,.. You can put it in the red, maybe it will distort, maybe it won't, you have 20 db to go (so pull out those db meters so you can know) or wait... What year was your mixer made? Because we changed how sound works after 2008

I've heard that the DJM-600's AD/DA stage around the FX DSP is always in the path and not just an analog mixbus into the main analog path, but I don't know for sure and have never owned or used one. I just always assumed since hearing this that the issues with sound could derive from clipping that section. Anyone who can read schematics and has access to the service manual could find out one way or the other, though.

32bit floating point has infinite headroom. So the DJM-800 shouldn't clip in the processing domain internally. Assuming its FX section also runs this way, it should only be possible to clip the 800 at either the input AD stage or the output DA stage (or the SPDIF out, which is 24bit and encounters the same 0dBFS max threshold), and there's more headroom for that on the 800 than any analog mixer I've ever handled, including A&H. You'd have to max out all the reds, I think, and probably be barely even seeing them bouncing. Analog mixers are a completely different breed, often with adjustable meters, adjustable master outs, and some are not soft clipping at all but can clip even more abruptly than a digital mixer brought to its hard clip. Having limiters on a digital mixer is more useful on a 24bit internal one than a 32bit, but has both its positives and negatives.

What you're experiencing could be one of several things:

1) You don't like digital mixers and the "crunch" they can lend to the highs. Not much you can do about this except switch to analog or get a sound system that compensates a bit. Very high end digital should not have so much of this discrete, finite, hard crunch if it's fed good material and connected optimally, but this remain signature tends to be a drawback of each AD/DA phase. So minimize the number of AD/DA phases. If it's digital content, it's even possible to get rid of the AD part and go DA only once. or

2) The DVS software or the interface is being overdriven. Always test DVS software and interfaces for clipping with test signals. Could be happening in either. Find out where they clip and prevent it from happening in practice. or

3) The sound system is being overdriven... bottoming out drivers or clipping amps. Try to utilize sound systems that can handle, at the very least, pink noise blasted louder than you would normally blast the music. Preferably, you should be running a system big enough to take pure bass sin waves at live levels without getting thermal damage, but that tends to require a system 3 to 4X more capable than what you'd normally blast through it live. With some of these live "dj producers" now, though, it's something to think about. It's a safe way of doing it. While there are some mixers that have limiters built in (and you can add them down the chain), limiting increases RMS and crushes the signal if pushed, and thereby increases likelihood of thermal damage to the drivers if the system's not robust enough. Constant clipping can have a similar effect on RMS that is even less pleasing to the ears. It is mostly a myth that clipping holds a driver stationary or is inherently dangerous beyond this simple thermal concern, but the thermal concern is equally a problem from constant extreme compression or hard limiting. The only inherent danger from an outright clipped square wave-like signal is its potential to damage certain tweeters, but all pro tweeters that are susceptible to this should already have breakers, fuses, or bulbs in the cab to prevent their destruction. If they don't, install appropriate bulbs between the jack posts and the drivers inside. or

4) Your ears are being overdriven. Past a certain point, your ears/brain begin to ramp up distortion. It begins in the low 70dBs range and starts ramping way up into the 90dBs and above. This is why 85dB is often the loudest sweet spot recommended for mastering. The band that often distorts the worst in your own head is the same band that hard surface reflections tend to also exacerbate for us: the high mids & low treble, creating a nasty splashy quality with its own crushed apparent dynamics. Proper acoustic room treatments and keeping the volume moderate will greatly reduce apparent distortion for listeners. Arguably, this is more important than whether you are using a high-end digital or analog mixer. So treat that room and make sure you tell the DJs where on the mixer's meters you've optimized the sound. Test the system for the first red on the master meter with both very dynamic and very compressed content alternatively, then tell them to back off the levels when the master blinks into the red. That's a reasonable way of doing it.

By the way, I am not dissing high quality digital mixers used optimally. I think they do certain things better than analog mixers ever have and are partially responsible for allowing some of the newer trends in electronic music styles since their widespread adoption, particularly towards music with very nuanced, deep, tuneful bass lines. I rarely hear that shimmer and delicacy on newer equipment nowadays that I heard back in the day, but that may have more to do with hearing loss on my end or the systems being over driven or too many AD/DA stages or tracks that are too compressed to begin with. Hard to say in each situation.

very insightful. lotta random questions that ive always wondered about were answered.

In my last sentence of my long post, the word "Test" really should have been "Set the max volume of..."

+1



Thanks for the update - sorry for belated reply. Having all these issues again personally since I've been playing at the club I was whinging about before haha.

One thing I didn't notice - that MASTER ATTENUATION 'MASTER ATT' flathead screwdriver knob on the back of the DJM 800. I WILL HAVE TO CHECK if the bloody mixer is at -12dB setting.. but I am thinking it's just the club system (as you mentioned as your final option in your list). Driving me a little mental. Thinking back some years, the club used to probably have less harsh limiting going on. I remember when a jump up night called Wobble would play there and the sine bass lines would all turn to square, from the red line on channels and master out. Since then I guess the booking agent (there's no sound guy ever available on nights, room locked as soon as people enter, urgh) or a promoter using the venue before us had set it up crazy. The bass was too loud through the system so to counter people would run bass EQs at 8-9am positions. Then if you tried to get it audible volume, it would either be high yellow channels/master and the highs and mids would saturate. I don't like DJMs but I figured the issue in this case was probably more to do with the room setup. I still haven't been able to get in early enough to soundcheck and scope the room myself (and I have no experience with compressors or limiters in a non-production environment) but I will make sure I do for the next gig, since we have an international headlining. Out of two shows there so far, the first I could not worry about the audio too much since I was trying to play turntables with Serato and for one thing I had forgotten to 'fix' the estimated sensitivity setting (extreme left from estimation lol, I forgot that you need to give a LITTLE sensitivity for quality sound and control...). That was because the booth is so cruddy and no sound proofing from the bass bins sitting right next to it (and it's on WHEELS ffs haha, don't lean on it too much..). But last time using CDJs (due to the turntable issues, skipping, needles picking up noise from the speakers) it was still a bad 'limiting' sound. Apparently one of the subs had blown the month after we played, so someone had probably gone way hard to try to compensate for the abysmal limiter/compressor setup and was constantly clipping or running the limiter. Regardless it was sounding horrible and saturated trying to get some volume while reducing the inherent over-bassed room system. Giving me a bit of a headache trying to deal with a DJM running into such a mess.. and I've just found out they won't let anyone swap it for say a Xone 92 or something. I don't think we'll even figure out a way to run into it with a Xone (it would be hard to organise a riser or something to put my mixer on top of another mixer, without messing with the mixer controls .. any ideas for this??) and it would probably sound poopy anyway, running a Xone into a DJM.

Sorry, I meant to say 'your last option, apart from your ears clipping out' hehe. But yeah I know all about ear strain!!!!! When I was 13 playing in a two piece noise band (two guitar amps) we got clocked in a room at 115dB. I was pretty proud of that.

1 - yep, I HATE the extra AD/DA stages.. I play either vinyl or Serato DVS digital web flac.. so digital to Serato box, analog out, analog mixer A&H Xone 92 input, analog out to speakers. So I like the sound of pure analog or getting rid of the AD stage.. I even hate that extra preamp for vinyl thru ever since after the SL1, I don't want to have to use line inputs for vinyl / phono input and I don't trust the preamp for phono to line on the SL3 - vinyl sounds better connected directly to a phono preamp on my mixer, in my opinion.. also I've had some weird outputs of ground hums when going phon to line in the SL3.. I'm sure vinyl thru setting sounded better on the SL1. Wish Manley Skipjack wasn't insanely priced and impossible to get pretty much because that seems like the best solution to this issue.

2. Serato Scratch Live / DJ autogain is shite - especially as I like to play stuff with dynamics and stuff that has great sequencing, if not always good mixdown or mastering. So even setting autogain to 90-92db, I'd usually get a track here or there that would clip at some frequency. So I manually set green level in SSL/SDJ for every track.

This sucks though when almost all the systems I've played on are set up for redliners!! It's endemic :( and almost always a Pio 800 or 900 that I end up fighting with the channel and master levels to try to hear crap on my headphones (why the feck haven't pio ever put in a better master cue, so it didn't have to be near unity to cue with a channel?? To me it's about as silly as pre-eq cueing (Pios don't do this do they?? I never actually tested but I think I was confused thinking this for a while when I meant the master cue). Then there's if you are trying to put green levels (-6 to -3ish on channel meters, for blending two or three channels at once.. would be -9 or -12db on the channel meters for a four deck mix to have master around -3db or near 0db wouldn't it??) - you can't heard what you're cueing on the channel if you are compensating with 1-2pm master out to get master closer to unity.. unless you have a seperate headphone preamp or constantly cranking the channel levels just to cue, then having to re-gain before bringing the track in..

Then if there's limiters and stuff set up for those sort of redliners as well, it just saturates and clips crap and sounds terrible. And the amp/speakers/PA mixer/console/limiter will be set too low for decent sound if tuned for redliners and no chance to change during the night, and trying to keep proper gain structure.. does my head in.

My main problem with DJ venues, along with bad booths / analog turntable setups that resonate bass through the booth/decks and make Serato sensitivity estimates/setting (along with holding blends) crap as. I wish every setup that had turnies had mechanically separated/sound proofed all the important parts of the booth properly that can impact/cause vibrations and resonance on the turnies. Because my own booth at home isn't that well proofed, I just keep adding more foam under it, to try to be able to hammer crossfaders without the 'knock' on the mixer having an effect on Serato playback/cartridge pickup sensitivity setting/keeping a blend. I really want to do more 3 and 4 deck mixes but I'm thinking it would be about a hundred times easier on CDJs, which I hate and never want to use if I can avoid it. Turntables are such a nice interface to work over CDJ 'toys' and midi controllers.. but if they aren't harder than ever to find in perfect working order/'near perfect' playback setup, as more and more people move onto to digital interfaces and venues care less and less about making booths and setups 'pro-vinyl'.

Also found a few venues that will REFUSE mixer change and such a hassle (and potential waste of time and extra gain stages) to plug a mixer into another mixer that is generally going into another mixer/console.. definitely focusing on booking shows at venues that are at least open to mixer changeover.

And then there's bad rooms/not treated rooms as well.. even good systems sound so bad in a non-treated poor acoustic space.. barely any venues in my town bother to 'waste' money on making a good sound, since half the punters wouldn't give a toss how it sounded, just out to drink and listen to mainstream crap, for a lot of venues. The mobsters that generally run a lot of the venues would rather buy white for their nose than improve or remedy sound issues I think. And whenever a venue goes all out and gets the best system and tries to acoustically treat, they generally spent so much they either charge a fortune for bookings and doesn't get used much, or people used to terrible acoustics and sound systems or clueless/uncaring people sometimes blow stuff.. had one venue where the bass would cut out entirely if it went just loud enough.. urgh. Most venue owners are in it for the money in my country and not for the love of amazing sound.

Getting good gain and good sound is a fucking mission.

Worst was one of my earliest DJ shows at a tiny venue with the poorest acoustics and sound - the owner was a gain fascist and made EVERY channel be green, not even a pop of orange 0db on master, as well as another mixer, and a limiter... running into a poor as feck system that had no definition and couldn't make crap out. And no monitor if I remember correctly. So you couldn't hear crap. If you did jump to the dancefloor and have a listen, it sounded quiet and like poop, unless you hit a little orange. It still had no definition but at least you could hear the damn bass a little. But I couldn't hit the orange because the venue owner kept coming up every time I would do it, and push me out of the way to pull everything down to green. And this was for a breakcore set too, so the tracks were usually distorted and saturated to begin with, so they sounded that way regardless of gain structure and you need a bit of volume to hear inbetween the grit..

One last thing I need to ask. On a DJM 800 or 900, is the 'full up' setting on a channel fader 0DB ?? Because on the A&H Xone 92, it seems to be 0DB at the point where it actually has the 0DB led (there is a pattern around the 3db either side and a line pointing to the 0db in the stenciling). I had friends tell me about this when I first got my Xone 92 but it was confusing for me (I never really noticed the graphics/stenciling, just looked at the pretty colours lol) - also I think I was poorly trained from having to use DJMs previously so often.

I would insist on running anywhere short of the red that I please. Sometimes I like to begin the night at one yellow led (because the top green is impossible to determine in the dark without touching into the yellow and back) and then go up to all yellow later in the night when I want to get louder, with brief blinking into the first safety red being my indicator that I'm too hot on the gain or EQ or multiple faders at once. I see a lot of DJs who have zero idea how to work faders and EQs when blending or transitioning... like a retardation level of skills. It's even more shocking to me than the number of DJs who can't seem to beatmatch by ear anymore, because even the sync-tards at least should have figured out level balancing by now.



Full up is 0dB on the faders on both Pioneer and A&H. Unity on the 900's master out top knob is now marked. On the 800 it was in the same spot at about 2:30ish but unmarked... where the master and channel meters match. It is entirely in the DSP. This knob also affects the headphone version of the master/program, and you need to have the master's cue button pressed, too. You can always easily tell unity though some combination of the metering system and headphone monitoring.

The screw attenuation on the back is passive only and meant for the rare situation when the signal is too hot for whatever you're going into and you still want the top master at unity (for me, master knob should always be at unity). Otherwise, the screw should be at 0dB

Interestingly, on the DJM800, the input gains/trims are pre-ADC when analog inputs are used, but are in the digital domain when the SPDIF ins are used. PPD's were always digital domain.

im not sure any dj under 30 understands how to stay out of the red. its strange tbh

I'm particularly amused and horrified by people turning down or up the master knob and cranking the booth and wondering where the all the subwoofer sound went. They usually are overloading either a channel or the master when doing this, too. I put the master at unity and like a neutrik speakon barrel over it with tape so they stop fucking touching it. Pioneer should have put a unity override in their settings... hell, actually had settings like Numark and Denon. And if you're in the OL red led (2nd one) at all or even the first red for a length of time, I will embarrass you by reaching in front of you and turning your gain down.

Actually running the whole (or most of the) night at the first yellow, though, as it gives you a lot of headroom for effects and crescendos. Obviously I mean doing so with the master at unity and covered up.

Accidentally deleted something from the first sentence "is not such a bad way to go"

my main residency upgraded to better amps with a pretty decent mid grade eaw setup that is probably a bit much(loudness) for the room.

everytime i go when im not playing the channel is in the red and the main is down and the sound is about 5db too loud and they're complaining to me about the djs.

its almost like someone has been teaching kids to go to start in the red no matter what and adjust volume from there. ive seen in numerous times, so somewhere along the line they must have been taught that.

Might not have actually been from another person. I think part of that is the result of controllers with poor meters built in or poor maps for the meters that automatically go to red with autogain settings. Many autogains and headroom settings are wanky and weird, anyway, often engaging limiters unless you go in there and customize. And regardless of the latter, seeing reds all the time with some of these controllers is conditioning the kids to do stupid things when they get to the big boy gear.

Having a highly capable sound system is not a bad thing, but cranking a big system louder than is needed is bad. The best sound from most cabs (other than exotic folded horns and ribbon/stats) is below the first quarter of its rated watt potential. You increasingly are adding distortion, compression, and rattling... not to mention distorting & compressing people's ears if it's not comfortable.

So having really big cabs and expensive drivers is a wonderful thing. Having 2-4X the power you actually need to run such a system to, say, its halfway point is overkill nowadays with limiters in the amps that prevent class A/B/H/D output stage clip harmonics, but on the cab and room layout, high-end isn't such a bad thing. If you don't have access to the main board or the amps themselves, just run your meters lower, people will stay longer, and the system will sound better.

What I meant to say at the beginning of the third paragraph was that spending more on the cabs than the amp wattage is a good strategy nowadays if you're on a budget. If you can pay, then amps that can peak limit all the way up to the rated peak handling of the cabs linked-in isn't a total waste... maybe one day you'll need it. But only having the amps for going half the full rated power is actually safer and does not sound worse. There's a lot of nonsense about slew and headroom and other stuff that is highly exaggerated. The danger of clip harmonics is now gone. Ditto with the Funktion One sentiments about how speaker efficiency should be maximized because every watt more of power is causing distortion. Total bunk. Electromechanical driver state of the art now is not wildly more advanced than it was 40 years ago; just slightly. There are journal articles from 50 years ago that still haven't been built on in the field. Anyone who says the amp state of the art is not wildly more advanced than it was 40 years ago needs to be raped by woodland critters.

In other words, you can get reasonably priced, very low-distortion, reliable, high-efficiency amplifiers that go from practically DC to literally double the ultrasonic range at massive wattages that will never go into output stage clip harmonics. It's always about tradeoffs, therefore why put so many eggs in the driver efficiency basket? More magical thinking. Ditto for people saying you need several times the rated power handling in available amp watts.

lofl

interesting stuff for sure, since im putting together some biz plans involving large systems.

ive been reading a lot of sound guys and installers theories on what to use and what to not use.

quick question, ive been reading about some clubs that use only analog amps/processing etc, how do you feel about that over more modern digital processing? is there that much of a difference? I'll remind you my description is pretty vague, and im no soundman(clearly)...ill send a pm to continue this.

There are only a few forms of processing you can do in the analog domain. You can do filters, such as crossovers, and *some* delays. And since most media is now digital being played, digital mixers are so good (even for phono, though Rane, Denon, and even Numark/Alesis/PPD maybe have been better for that than Pioneer), and you can do so much more processing with digital, as long as you use good stuff and set it up right, in my opinion it's hard to justify all analog or intentionally avoiding digital altogether. There's even cheap Behringer stuff now that's using nice chip sets, stable firmware, and listenable analog output stages even if you don't go into another final DAC! That's crazy. My ears and OCD might scream, but empirically I can measure from digital media all digital to the various processors that the sound is testing more repeatedly the same, with lower distortion, and I know (or think I know) what I'm getting. And there are fewer cables :-) You can do some great stuff with arrays, delayed rows of sequential fills away from the front to keep the response even, mid-side stuff with central-periphery arrangements... endless possibilities. Funktion One is correct that unless you use very particular filters (analog or digital) that some filters and especially EQs cause weird group delay phasing issues that can do adverse stuff to sound. But so does overrun 4-stacks of 4-ways with barely any top extension in overly-small rooms that haven't been acoustically treated that I've seen them install. I do respect their attempts to get the response balance in the drivers, though.

A few more things to mention:

The lack of a limiter/compressor on the Pioneers has its utility. Overload at the second red LED into 0dBFS is a very bad-sounding form of hard limiter that effectively dissuades people from running it like that for too long, while a normal look-ahead limiter would be less harsh, and a soft-knee compressor would really encourage abuse. All of them, including the OL second red, will increase RMS and the risk of thermal damage to woofers, but only digital clipping sounds distinctly, overtly, and immediately lower-fidelity. Hence, it's useful for making people who push it that hard sound bad and to keep them from doing it for long.

Therefore, setting the system for max volume at the first red (as the momentary safety), having a system that is capable of being pushed even harder if it has to be, and running the whole night at the third and fourth yellows (third for louder tracks, fourth for more dynamic ones that need a bit more oomph to breath, first red only briefly for safety/accidents), will keep the levels consistent for the night assuming master out is at unity, the pad screw is set appropriately & liberally for whatever sound board you may be running into (turn up all the knobs on the mixer and push it hard red, then turn pad down and board down until board never clips), and thus should protect the sound system from damage, assuming amps never go into limiting, amps actually have limiters on them to prevent ultrasonic overload that could destroy tweeters, and tweeters have proper protection. Whew. That's a mouthful.

There is another set of DJs out there with the theory that gains/trims should be set once for a piece of hardware and never touched again. This is the result of two newer practices by DJs who have little to no formal studio engineering training and didn't learn on the earliest hardware, like rotaries with isolators. First, they have no concept of the phasing Group Delay time anomalies caused by EQing. This is the primary form of distortion caused by all EQs and filters to some degree or another, and why certain filters are preferred for crossovers and infrasonic filters, for instance. EQ should only be done when it is necessary due to tonal difference in tracks, artistic choices of the DJ (i.e. I wanna cut the vocal or bass out for a beat or measure, etc), and when in a transition. EQs are not a replacement for the gain knob. This is further being erroneously re-enforced by the dependency on DVS, laptops, and controllers, where software is normalizing everything for some DJs now and they have the belief that their prior incorrect techniques are therefore further justified. It's not. It's 100% wrong. Their mentors taught them wrong. I can point anyone to academic lit as well as major sound installers' advice on the subject. While I disagree with Tony Andrews' efficiency argument, he's spot-on in the EQ department.

Pioneer used a standard 0dBu VU meter. You should be averaging AROUND the zero on the meter, bouncing below and past it plus/minus 4 to 7dB, depending on the dynamics of the track.

When I say 0dBFS, I'm talking about in the digital domain, not on the meters. It is the maximum peak possible in 24bit on the analog inputs (which have adjustable opamp gain prior to the A/D conversion) and all outputs prior to the D/A converter to being bitrate converted and digitally filtered for the SPDIF. The gain knobs when the digital inputs are in use are entirely within the digital domain.

Trackng

"You can always easily tell unity though some combination of the metering system and headphone monitoring."

Should have said:

"You can always easily tell unity THROUGH some combination of the metering system and headphone monitoring."

I can't trust the meters on a DJM800 anymore. I do a battle set with another guy every Saturday night, he plasy on 2 CDJ and a 800 I run my DDJSZ into his mixer, and if I'm at 1 yellow and hes at 1 yellow he's way over powering me. The Sound card on the DDJ with it's compression make the meters look like they are louder than they really are compared to a Rane sound card.

Perceived loudness is as much a function of RMS as it is peak levels. RMS (root-mean square) is the total power of the waveform, and (at similarly-set peak levels by-way-of-gain settings) might be visible on responsive VU meters as how LITTLE various content bounces around a center (usually around or near 0dBVU on the actual meter when gain is properly set). Low RMS content is more dynamic and needs its gains set such that its peaks go up higher than high RMS content, which is less dynamic and may visibly bounce closer to its center-line. If the content is sparse, then peak levels are mostly what give the impression of how loud it is -- especially with bass or beat content. With complex, layered, multi-frequency content and at substantial volumes (i.e. above moderate dB), your sense of loudness is increasingly related to RMS. Hence the reason I said you often need an extra one or two yellows headroom on average for those tracks that have more dynamic range and are less compressed, while the first red is the accidental safety for when you briefly push it a bit too hard and either have to back the effect, gain, or EQ a bit when you see this so it doesn't get any worse into 0dBFS OL (overload) clipping.

He's probably playing extremely compressed music and yours is less so. You should be proud of yourself; compression of an entire bounced downmix/master is basically more noisy, fatiguing, and non-musical, only being a good idea when there is specific artistic intent, low-level information that isn't coming through, or peaks that are too excessive. In that case, I'd recommend you asking him to run only up to the top green with the first yellow as his safety, or you run to the 3rd or 4th yellow while he remains about where he's at. That's what it's there for. Certainly let him know if you guys want consistent loudness through the night, he shouldn't be automatically coming up to match your meter peaks.

Managing available headroom, gain settings, and apparent loudness is a fundamental aspect of live sound and there are give & takes for each. When setting levels, you need to be using your ears as much as the meters, of course with the understanding that as the night continues, you should not be cranking the sound if you suddenly feel it's getting quieter -- that's usually an indication you had it too loud to begin with. The importance of using your ears for loudness is one of the reasons old house rotary DJs seem to have such seamless, effortless transitions -- no meters and they're using just the ears with very nuanced volume motions to adjust. The meters are really there to tell you how far away from clipping you are and help you optimize signal to noise ratios while keeping some headroom available to be more dynamic while staying appropriately loud. VU meters are only a rough, and useful nonetheless, estimate of loudness during a transition.

You should check out Mixxx's implementation of normalization based on RMS, by the way. It's not a bad idea for people using a laptop.

That makes alot of sense. I buy all my music from very reputable and legal pools. But Audio tracks and Video. Where I know he just downloads from anywhere. Now I know he checks the files but I still suspected it could be that.

In case anyone isn't reading all this discussion carefully, I mean dynamically compressed, not data compressed, though they often are both problems on the same files.

I was worried about dynamic compression caused by the sound card in the DDJ. Reticuli Seems like you know a fair bit about this sort of thing. Do you know of any other reason the DDJ could be giving me these issues.

Again when I play solo and run the DDJ direct into the PA it sound great. The owner (who really knows nothing about sound) even said it sound great now. The DJM800 is defiantly bringing things down. It's just hard to deal with the levels between the 2 of us being out of wack all night.

Neither is probably capable of significantly altering the dynamic range of the signal, unless the signal is too hot pass into or out of it and clipping. The laptop software is more likely to be doing something than them to the dynamics; don't forget headroom settings, etc. The only thing to be concerned with about the DJM 800 is that it's another device in the signal path, not to mention another stage of A/D and D/A conversion with how you are using it. It's also possible the DJM 800 could be too hot of a signal from its main analog output to whatever it's going into, which would call for the passive analog pad screw in the back to bring it down. I don't know all the details with how you are running things, though. It's also possible what you are hearing is not loudness v dynamics, but tonal and transient differences in the two devices. All A/D and D/A conversion (not to mention the processing the DJM 800 does in the middle) does not sound alike, regardless of the nonsense Consumer Reports wants you to believe.

I've been saying for years that mixer noticeably degrades the sound. The 500 and 600's were even worse. The 900's seem to have improved things some, though I still think Rane's mixers sound better/more neutral.

Sorry to be sick / busy and away from the thread - thanks so much for clarifying that both A&H and DJMs have unity on channel faders at full up setting. I thought that the graphics next to the channel faders on the A&H 92 were a little silly, in that it was hard to get a decent volume at 2pm on the master output level while using trim/gain to get a single yellow pop or none at the highest green - seemed way better at full up but I was unsure if that was correct. There were some mixers in the past decades where unity was a bit lower and above was a boost/gain though aye?

I like that you mention rotary and isolators - having finally become acquainted with isolators (and their difference to EQ) I'm a bit enamoured and would really love a stereo unit (or two monos) for master output use.

I agree with your sentiment that there is HEAPS of good digital gear out there and there isn't much point, if designing a club/performance space, to focus on 'analog only'.

To also talk about perceived loudness - I would LOVE some kind of loudness measurement at DJ boots, that utilised those new standards and a variety of metering styles. I agree that the old methods of metering are not as good at dealing with perceived loudness as the new ones, so I really want to have that reading handy somewhere at the booth to know more than what the mixer LEDs are telling me. Guessing that the simplest thing would be a laptop running off the mixer with some plugins or something - guessing hardware would cost a bit.

At a club locally 'Rubix' they have a very expensive /fancy speaker setup and a fancy new Behringer PA mixer. It has a display and has some volume info and a bunch of doodads in it but when I would complain that the bass was rattling my inner ear and 'too loud' near the stage, the engineer would just point a db meter around a show me the reading. Which was reasonable but still, I perceived it louder.. and I wasn't alone in the sentiment.

And yes those Funktion stacks with blaring mids and bass but not much treble (or mid-low) definition drive me a little nuts. I prefer clarity and definition of bass, mids and highs over max level/volume anyday.. ESPECIALLY when it comes to bass. Sure, it feels good to get a 'bass massage' against the speaker but even then there is being pummeled, vs that hearty 'chest thump'. Wish I could speak in as informed a manner as you Reticuli, maybe hopefully one day xD

p.s. with 'highly dynamic' stuff needing more volume - too right when you're talking say jungle vinyl records - especially if they are 20 years old and popping and crackly.. the pops and cracks will be the peaks.. and will sound a lot lower for any system setup for digital stuff.

p.p.s. that first red pop along with rising over the night up the yellows is what drives me to mess around with the gain /normalisation on my mix recordings manually for sections, so that the starts aren't relatively super quiet and mid way through things start to get louder (and therefore for most people, better hehe).

extra note - Code:E, I too agree with Reticuli that there is probably some software thing going on. For instance, the limiter and autogain settings in Traktor. Using Serato I always have autogain off. Ask him to turn off his limiter and compressor or normaliser is there are those going on in his software...

A very last note - "All A/D and D/A conversion (not to mention the processing the DJM 800 does in the middle) does not sound alike, regardless of the nonsense Consumer Reports wants you to believe." - I have just finally realised that it is the AD/DA step in the SL3 that is making vinyl through it sound like poop, compared to direct connection from turntable to mixer. A user with a Rane mixer asked on the Rane forums if the phono preamps were the same on the mixer and the SL3 and had confirmed they are, however also had confirmed that yes, there was an AD/DA stage in the SL3 as well. So, I finally found the time to do my research to find some half decent RCA switch boxes so I can feel better about playing 'real audio' vinyl along with DVS control records. As well as leaving the box and cables plugged in for people before and after me playing 100% real vinyl, as previously would be a cable rush to swap over to make sure the SL3 wasn't still connected to turnies and pooping up their sound. And yes AD/DAs do have differences..

The DJM-800 has pretty mediocre A/D conversion. Anything from Tascam or Alesis/PPD in the early days of digital mixers blows the 800's digitization out of the water, and the 800 came out after them. Behringer's A/D conversion is superior! The Denon top one was co-designed by like Denon Japan's mastering house people or something. Crazy good. Pioneer's been playing catch up for a long time and the DJM900NXS2 finally starts doing some stuff right. The DJM-800 and first 900 (noisier, actually, but with slightly better transients) was basically mid-fi Pioneer receivers inside, and if you know anything about Denon, if they'd just used their own internals from a consumer amp, it would have still blown the Pioneers away. I'm not dissing the processing, though. Other than the sometimes overblown effects and some niggles I have with the EQs, I think even the 800's processing is pretty transparent. Their trim/gain pots before the A/D converters, however, make metering with an analog input sort of precarious when people are using the EQ. This led to one of the less-than-perfect paranoid techniques of leaving the gains fairly low for safety and people adding all sorts of group delay by using the EQs for that purpose, motivated a bit by the real possibility of clipping the A/D converters with people who way overuse the EQs, and resulting in them overusing the EQs even more. I've seen some mixing this way on Tony Andrews' painstakingly-designed matched-timing F1 systems... and more often than not with analog inputs from the CDJs. Piling up the sh--. It's all cumulative, so it can get quite smeared and also narrow, like you've piped the signal through a defective 3.5mm stereo jack or something in comparison to the original feed. Pipe the signal in there digitally (output digitally if the sound system is using DSPs or even use an outboard DA converter if you can... obviously try to record digitally), minimize the use of the EQs, and it's like you replaced the defective cable with a really nice, short pair of RCAs from source to amp. More detail. More imaging space. Precise timing/phase. Using it optimally can get the most out of its good parts.

I no longer assume the older model Pioneer digital DJMs are definitely float DSP.