...is that people can be so impatient. They're working on it.

...is that people buy stuff before doing a little bit of research first. :P

i use serato with XP perfectly. why is it so difficult to make it not crash with vista?

i think you're spoiled. if you dont like it, dont use it. pretty simple.

you are totally right, i am spoiled and i shouldn't complain.

guess i'm just too impatient for companies to support new
technologies...

but still, bring on vista support!

Snow - they're working on it and I think one mod post claimed it as their #1 priority.

From other mod posts, it sounds like much of the blame lies within Vista itself. While I take that with a grain of salt, I also don't discount it - Microsoft screwed up this roll out in several ways.

Are we honestly blaming Serato for this? Let me answer your question. Windows Vista is absolute sh*t. Just like every other version of windows you can remember (3.1, 95, 98, 98se, me, 2000, xp) the initial release of the product is awful. I didn't touch XP until the first service pack came out because it was so buggy. In my professional career, I've actually done some work for Microsoft. There minimum error count to release a OS is 60,000. Yep, 60,000 things that can go wrong and it's good to ship. Well Vista is possibly the worst yet. It takes 2 GB or ram just to run the OS....this is rediculous. Vista spends all its time checking that your software is legal and checking your media is legal, all the meanwhile sending usage stats to microsoft over the web to invade your privacy. It's quite possibly the most bloated, gluttenous piece of crapware ever released. I'm so put off my Vista that I'll probably buy another mac when it comes time for a new "everyday" computer.......that or switch to linux.

My advice.......go buy a mac or install XP on your machine with all the service packs and do a dual boot. SSL could be perfectly coded and it'll still f-up on that worthless vista machine you have.

Nothing personal...just the facts.

F@#$ Windows Vista.

Amen brother.

Well I can say that I have done a little more then just "some" work for Microsoft in my life so far. And I am very surprised about by the bashing that goes on. Ok so yes Vista is new, and MS has attem pted to lock down the OS, while making the lockdown as user-friendly as possible. I admit it seems annoying at times, bu the fact is you only get the annoying confirmations when you make a system change, like installing new software. And if it annoys that badly, turn off those features. As for MS wanting to protect its revenue streams, you bet ya. And the DRM (Digital Rights Management) technology, well I got news Google just got slapped with a lawsuit over copyright infringement with YouTube. Apple is getting flak from some record companies over the fact that its not trying to do more to product the record companies. Its called a free market people, we are all in it to make money. Anyways, if you don't like DRM, then uninstall Windows Media Player, and use someone elses.

Oh yeah i run Vista Ultimate just fine on a 768 MB machine.

Minimum Error count of 60,000, yeah i never heard of that one. I am sure that all critical and severe errors were fixed, and that minors ones that the OS could self recover from that the User would not even notice would be the only potential ones left.

OK before I get off my Soap box opne last thing. I think everyone has to realize the business model of the Mac and PC are very different. Mac's specialize in the complete vertical, in other words they build the hardware and software solution. Thus they know whats going in it, and this makes it easier to getr any kinks out. The Microsoft business model is much more difficult as they only produce the software, so they are at the mercy of the hardware vendors to get it right, so the software runs smoothly.

Just put things in prespective. Both technologies have there places, it really is all up to the user

You wanna tell me that it is difficult for a company as big as Microsoft to make a stable OS? Sorry, but that's ridiculous.

Windows has so many technical flaws because Microsoft *does not care* to make a technically solid product, not because they can't.

The only thing MS is really good at is making proprietary, crappy products the industry standard in order to make their shareholders happy.

If you actually want "new technology", wait in line at the Apple store the day OS 10.5 ships.

All Vista offers is the same old XP technology, with a huge resource-hog of a new GUI pasted on top of it (no doubt, most pro-audio software vendors will advise turning it off for best performance, much as they advised shutting off XP's Theme Manager), ham-handed attempts to deal with security problems, and embedded DRM and anti-piracy measures.

Since Serato running in full-screen mode will look exactly the same in Vista as it does in XP...and since the majority of Windows users are afraid to install any other applications on their machines due to stability/security issues...I fail to see what the big deal is. XP works just fine for Serato, so use it. If you went and bought a laptop with Vista installed before checking compatibility issues, that's your own fault.

simply put, expecting software to work on an OS that it was not made for is just plain ridiculous.

i sell you software for OS A and promise that it works and you decide to run OS B and then get mad at me? wtf? i never said it worked with OS B so why would you expect it to?

I'm the customer - I'm always right - now fix it.

[ah, I run XP, may I have the video plugin - please and thank you]

My advice...stick with what works. Most major corporations wait a couple of years before they actually implemented a new OS.

Unless your laptop is dead and you need to get a new one, there isn't any good reason to go with Vista....especially with whatever laptop that is used for Serato.

But...that's just my two cents. LOL
I really have learned during my time as an IT professional for a place that jumps on every new technology that comes out that it's better to be patient and let the bugs get worked out unless you can afford to take the risk.

How ironic. About 4 lines into a post defending my position against kameleon, my Outlook crashed all by itself and hung my wonderfuly maintained XP machine. Now that I've rebooted, I've lost the will to defend my views and will ignore the aforementioned, jaded attack. This is the epitome of Microsoft. Perhaps it was a sign.

Boogie Down Martin, DJMar, a-swift.......well put.

In the meantime. Enjoy.
Watchwww.youtube.com

Watchwww.youtube.com

damn funny.

more like Windows Vi$$$ta

If you are that upset that Rane and Serato are not offering Vista support, let's find a system you can use...

SSL: XP, OSX
Torq: XP, OSX
Ableton Live: XP, 2000, OSX
Final Scratch Open: XP, XP 64, OSX
Final Scratch 2: XP, OSX (G4 only - no Intel Mac support)
Traktor Scratch: XP, OSX
Traktor 3: XP, OSX
PCDJ Scratch: XP, 2000
PCDJ Red: XP, 2000
Numark Virtual Vinyl: XP
Mixvibes DVS: XP, 2000
Pioneer Pro DJS: XP, 2000


Yeah, you're S.O.L. on Vista support. JUST BE PATIENT!

i'm not so sure about that... i think there is a good point made that microsoft doesnt make the hardware. the advantage that apple has is that they can design the hardware and software to match up.

f*** vista, i didn't ask for it & had too much of a hard time finding a laptop without it

When you look back at all the crap that MS did during the last 10 years you will realize that most of this does not have much to do with hardware compatibility problems.

An OS that needs a fresh install every couple of months?
An textprocessing application that messes up your documents when they are larger than a couple of pages and contain some graphics?
So many open doors for viruses?

Now this DRM crap?

And also, Linux runs pretty stable on the same hardware...

i really like your last point... i wish i had more experiance with linux

I've been using Linux at work for a couple of years now and I'm not sure if I would recommend it to everyone. I think that what most people do with their computer is Word/Excel/Powerpoint, games, music, videos, filesharing, email, and Internet. Email and Internet are good with Linux and I think in terms of ergonomics and stability its also solid (in fact I prefer it over Mac/Windows). But for the other applications I mentioned above I think Windows/Mac is better (OpenOffice for Linux is not too bad though.)

Well, beleive me its not that Microsoft does not care. But as I stated earlier and DJ-A reiterated. Is that Apple can match up there hardware and software perfectly, because they design, build and support both.

Now if you take a simple computer, no USB devices, maybe except keyboard, or mouse, and a simple video card. With nothing on it but an OS. I bet ya Linux, Mac OS, and XP and Vista would run stable without any problem. Now start adding software and hardware to it. Especially older software, with older install scripts. Yeah those are very dangerous because half the time, they would install older versions of a common component that did not play nice with the newer OS.

I guess fomr my experience in the IT industry for over 10 years has proven to me. is that most issues with computers whether it be Windows, Mac OS, or Linux are a result of people not paying attention and understanding what they are doing. So Vista trys to solve that, may not be perfect, but I can say this its far better then what Linux provides. If you install the wrong common component on Linux, you will find outself rebuilding a machine. At least Vista trys to recover from such incidents.

As for DRM, yeah it hurts, but unless you want to be sued by the entertainment industry its almost a must. I am sure Apple will be doing something similar quite soon with iTunes.

i thought itunes was already doing that... unless i am mistaken on what DRM is.

Yes, iTunes also has DRM but what they did in Vista is a whole new level. To give you an example, the whole hardware involved in displaying - let's say a HDTV movie - must support hardware DRM.

For instance, if your monitor does not support hardware DRM than they will artificially reduce the picture quality of the movie.

This will probably make lots of people angry because they spent lots of money for a good quality graphics card and monitor but vista will distort the picture.

Not sure if what I wrote is technically 100% correct though, but you get the idea.

there IS a reason why apple swapped to a unix-based os core (right word?) when they released osx. that reason is compatiblity. os9 and its predecessors werent wonderfully stable, osx - is.

osx is stable because its based on unix, unix, by its nature - has more time spent on it, that companies such as windows cant compete with... for its price (zero).

that said, bearing in mind that windows has to work on any hardware setup and adapt itself to just about any circumstance, i think it does pretty damn well.

im yet to crash xp. iv had software crashes, sure, but thats software, not os.

if photoshop died on a mac, you wouldnt blame the mac, youd blame adobe.

oh yeah, and dont run linux unless you know how to fix it.. its a pretty hands-on experience

i had very few cashed and my pre osX macs were VERY stable.

i had two 1st gen imacs... and a g3 that i used at work all the time.... all three were hellish on os9.

OS9 and earlier (8.1, 7.6.1 and 7.1.1 were all pretty solid OS versions in their day, certainly far better than the then-current Windows versions) were quite stable but vulnerable to third-party extensions conflicts (including some third-party things that shipped with the OS). The older Mac OS didn't have the error-resiliency of OS X, and you sometimes had system-extensions fighting with each other.

As Mark stated, there were certainly very stable versions of Mac OS 7, 8, and 9... the big difference was that the kernel wasn't protected and any application crashing would take down the entire machine.

A true system-wide kernel panic is pretty rare on OS X. I have system uptimes that average on the order of 2-3 months. It might be longer, but I end up having to reboot the machine for a system update.

I have pretty good luck with Windows XP as far as uptime, but I also have a very simple setup... it has Quickbooks, iTunes, World of Warcraft, MS Flight Simulator, Oblivion, and that's pretty much it. I also have Office 2003, but I normally run Office apps on the Mac.

Actually, I think the biggest problem with Vista is that XP (with a couple of 3rd party add-ons) already about as good as Windows is going to get without some truly radical changes under the hood. That's what Longhorn was supposed to be, but they ended up yanking the really cool stuff because they couldn't get it out the door in time.

www.microsoft-watch.com

95 was cagey, but 95b wasnt. nt was solid, and was perfect for business... im running 2000 still at work here... and it doesnt crash. it just doesnt...

my work machine is on all the time, and the only time it crashes... is when i fill up memory with firefox tabs... and even then, firefox just dies, and restarts... and thats it.

and my machine is loaded down.. big time.

I was very reluctant to switch to XP from 2000 for about 3 years.

I just ordered a new laptop with Vista on it.
Also ordered a Home Premium version for my gig system.

The reason for this is the media management is far better with Vista, one of the shortfalls of XP and all we tried to do that it didn't, more specifically video.
It's taking more ram to run, but it's unloading the processors, which is what made xp so unstable. The ram is now a big capacitor absorbing the bumps instead of upsetting the traffic flow.
Think about it.

Do I blame MS for trying to tie up the hackers hands and stop piracy both with the os and other media?
Hell no!...And if you side with the hackers, well what can you say beside boo fucking hoo...

The problem here clear as day is that programmers didn't plan for the future and hardware developers didn't write drivers in time.
So consequently you may load up the os and not have working hardware as in the case with M Audio, which pisses me off.
So now, I'm either into a compatible card or I wait it out.

So give it a chance guys, anything new takes some time, but with all the people I have talked to it's pretty awesome next to what we were forcing against it's designed will to do what we wanted.

Can you expand on this, jrick? I'm not familiar with what Vista does in this regard that makes it worth jumping through all the other hoops. (I'm asking seriously, not just being a smartass).



In theory I'd agree with you. The problem is that both Microsoft and the entertainment industry have this increasingly broad definition of "hacking" and "piracy." Those are marketing words for copyright infringement and not accurate. I haven't seen any reports of roving bands of criminals commandeering ships on the high seas to make copies of CDs.

Where it used to mean mass-duplication and sale for profit, the entertainment industry now wants to limit your legally provided right to do things like time/format shifting and making personal copies and put it all under the "piracy" umbrella. I'm not making this up or being hyperbolic, it's documented.

Since they couldn't go after our right to make a personal copy of something we've purchased, they instead purchased legislation (DMCA) that does an end run and makes it illegal to defeat a technical measure. It achieves the same thing but via a channel that hadn't already been codified to protect the consumer.

All of these strategies are indicative of an industry that is desperately trying to hang on to outdated business models in a time of rapid change and significant devaluation of their product due to the cost of production and distribution being lowered so drastically.

I'm all for companies protecting their IP, but not at the expense of the paying customer. Any company that makes it easier for content providers to further erode my fair-use rights, especially using the DMCA as justification, is a company that I will be very hesitant to give my money to. In Vista's case, the new limitations and promise of increasingly intrusive software poking its nose into my data isn't worth some marginal improvement in media management.

As it is, I have to constantly tell Windows XP I don't really want the "advantages" of "Windows Genuine Advantage." My legally licensed copy of XP is working just fine, thanks, and I don't need to add something to it that could potentially shut me down when some random coder in Redmond didn't get his second can of Jolt Cola that morning.

So while things might be fine today, when Vista Service Pack 4 comes out (or any other OS for that matter) and includes code to recognize and prevent the encoding of a CD you own into any digital format or make a copy, will you still feel the same way?

As the bumper sticker says, "If you aren't outraged, you haven't been paying attention."

From the bottom to the top.

We all know that piracy and copy write has caused more than it's share of problems for everybody world wide. They have to do something to stop the mass duplication industry. I see guys like us being licensed like in Canada, and for the sake of continuing I'd opt for that. It's like gun legislation, the gun owner takes the hit and the criminals continue to shoot innocent people with illegal guns. They will find a way regardless, it's nothing new.
MS has engaged "Validation" now for updates etc for the reason of disabling illegal versions, and rightly so imo. Many people are hurt by illegal software cracks. Nobody should ride for free.

As far as snooping goes, no comment I guess, but if it gets pedophiles off the internet I'm all for it. I realize there's probably more to it than that, but unsure of specifics. When in doubt keep it offline I guess.

I am happy with my OEM copy of XP also, but the ability of it to operate to peak efficiency without a list of tweeks is less than desirable. Vista on the other hand has a hemi under the hood, marginal is not the right word imo.

I think we have outgrown XP honestly, and the future is unknown so we must prepare of be left behind like those stuck on 2k.


I anxiously await my new system, and install.
From what I know from a beta tester who is much more tech savy and another who has applied my specific application to it, it's all good. Here say at this point, but all good.
This OS can be loaded onto a memory stick and run from any system, (Vista compatible naturally)
It also determines whether the system will work properly BEFORE you load it, instead of the other way around.
The XP to Vista upgrade can be a bit tricky, and probably best to back up and restore files to Vista rather than upgrade to it from xp. Again, just what I've been told.

The specific details of how the processing is done with respect to ram is somewhat unclear, but the ram handles more of the os demand being called for instead of the cpu, making the cpu more efficient and more stable.

There is much to learn, but i'm pretty excited about it.

It would be good to hear from others who have Vista running on ex-xp systems for comparisons sake.
Certainly will have it's own learning curve, but I'm staying positive about it.
I have to wait on M Audio drivers to really test my upgrade, soon I hope.

Please be patient people. I work in tech support for an aviation software company and the rollout of Vista to the public with little to no notice didnt make things any easier for us. For one, All new machines only got Vista on them. You can probably find a rare laptop or PC sold to you at some discount with XP installed on it. Our product works on Win2K/XP machines. Its not like my company had any notice of Vista coming out, or even, had copies of Vista to test with. Trust me, Every company, from ours, to rane, to, just everyone, is having a nightmare trying to come up with versions of their software to run Vista. Ive only used Vista 2 times and Im happy to be using both XP and OSX on my machines.

It goes to back to, Always check to see if your programs, are or arent supported. Always do your research, Dont just come in and bitch about it not working. On the other hand, I hear that if you upgrade from XP to Vista, Serato and well as other software can possibly work. Depends on the situation. Give it sometime.

Top to the bottom. (Come on Master Dee, get funky while we got em).

Copy protection has never made a significant dent in the mass-distribution "pirates" and never will. Any technological means of copy protection can be defeated. All this stuff does is make it a pain for the people who actually pay for content or software.

Most copy protection schemes make it more attractive to own the "cracked" product. Most of the producers I know buy the software and then immediately download a cracked version so they don't have to put up with the BS.



Unfortunately the numbers on most of the sites I've read don't agree with your opinion. To extend your analogy, Vista may have a Hemi under the hood, but they also tacked on about 4,000 pounds of extra sheet metal. That shiny new wing on the back looks nice, but it's not doing much for your performance.

www.tomshardware.com

RAM helps, but not enough to make the jump worthwhile. And that's my main point - It's not that Vista isn't an ok operating system... I'm sure it's fine.

But there's not enough good to outweigh the bad or, more often, the unimproved. There's just not enough improvement to make me willing to jump through all the hoops required to run it with my stuff. I probably won't switch to Vista until there's a program that I need to run that doesn't run on XP.

(ZDNet's list of the three killer features in Vista were better photo management (a la iPhoto), desktop search, and voice recognition. Those are the killer features. Seriously. blogs.zdnet.com)

I don't understand what you're talking about with the memory stick thing.

Amen, Audio 1. =-)

To add, make sure your hardware peripherals are compliant with Vista drivers BEFORE you upgrade.

Vista has actually been around for a while, but got released out of the blue it seems.
It caught a lot of people with their pants down.

Just do what people did when they were still running 98/ME... You jsut waited either to upgrade or bought a new computer running XP. Shit, I used 98 til 2004 since All I really used was Soundforge, Winamp, DSP and Firefox. DAMN MICROSOFT!

i'm puzzled as to why most PC manufacturers aren't offering a choice or if they are, they don't make it obvious that they do.

What really puzzles me is how quick people are to get a new product like Vista immediately after it's release. I don't like getting any new operating system until the bugs are out. I bought a new laptop back in December just so that it would have XP, although I didn't really want to get a new one until later this year. I even got a voucher to upgrade to Vista when I'mm ready (Microsoft had a promo period for a little while before Vista launched so that people would still buy computers before the launch.)

Given Microsoft's history of strong-arm tactics with PC manufacturers, I suspect that they didn't have much of a choice. The manufacturers have to buy their OEM licenses from Microsoft before they can install the OS on the machine, and I'd wager that Microsoft either isn't making XP easily available or has some serious price barriers in place.

While I am firmly in the "do your research before you drop your money" camp, I do have a small amount of sympathy for the folks caught up in the instant-Vista switch.

(Releaux heads off to hug his Mac and make sure his Windows XP SP2 OEM disk is in a fireproof box)

I've heard several places (I believe one of the forums here was one place) that if you buy through the "business" sites for vendors like Dell, HP, etc. that you still have the option to choose XP. I just checked Dell, clicked on the "Small Business" link, and found some of the laptops sold through that part of the site do offer XP as of right now.

This is true Mark, Sony offered me that option.

I would have expected most software companies to be thinking ahead.
If new users with new machines want their software, it's going to hit them where it counts in new sales.
That part puzzles me somewhat.

I don't think telling users that they must have xp or else is an option that is going to stand up for long.

The real problem is the secondary hardware like controllers, sound cards and other devices that don't have Vista compatible drivers.

I expect the shit to hit the fan soon in this regard.

I rang dell & any pc or laptop you want can come with xp instead of vista you just have to ask!

However I wanna know about this new mac/pc thing thats come out from apple is it any good? Or should I just get a G4 notebook? What are the advantages of mac over pc in the relm of serato?

Actually, my friend just bought a Sony VGN-C260E at costco which
shipped with Vista Home Premium and when I called Sony...they have
stated that their computers are not backwards compatible which makes sense from a technical standpoint) and that the unit will not support XP (the tech support person suggested 1. I install XP and search for the individual drivers which would void Sony support or 2. Return it, if my software/hardware won't support vista....)I'm pretty sure this is an industry standard response to all newer laptops that ship with vista and have never shipped with xp.

Any ETA on the Scratch-Live for vista?
my friend has 2 options...return the laptop or the serato...
i think at this point he really can only return the serato...

You're kidding, right? You mean to tell me there's Vista specific hardware? I find that really hard to believe.



if he bought the laptop within the last 90 days he can still return it for a full refund at Costco. Then he can get a dell or similar laptop that has the option of XP install.

Search the boards for ETA on Vista compatibility. But to save you time, the short answer is "unknown".

Now i have never tried running SSL on vista but i use vista at my work, is it possible just to click on properties and tell SSL to run from windows XP SP2 i have had to do this with many programs

would this not work for SSL?

thats a valid point... someone find out!

Got my new machine yesterday....wow, amazing how much technology as stepped up.

First impression of Vista is quite good.
It's not that much different either.

Now all we gotta do is get M Audio to pull their head out of their ass and I'll be happy.

Just hang in there guys, it's going to be here sooner than later because I guarantee this isn't how Serato wants it to be.

I just skimmed over all the other post above and yes I am a Mac User, but my comment is that Microsoft does things a little different than Apple when it comes to OS software.

Every year Apple has something called the World Wide Developers Conference (July/August)where software and hardware companies can get Beta software of the upcoming Mac OS.

Mac OS 10.5 was released almost a year ago to developers so that they can make their software compatible with the new OS before it is released, Apple also works with the developers (and developers work with each other) so improvements and problems can be addressed and Apple also provides frequent new builds of the software so these improvements can be passed along to all developers. Hopefully this will make Serato compatible with Mac OS 10.5 when it drops sometime this year. Also since Apple tends to do a major update its OS about every year, usually not much changes to make it grossly incompatible with most WELL WRITTEN software (which is why I switched from FinalScratch and Traktor).

Vista was a 5 year project and a radical change in the OS. Microsoft does Beta releases also but I heard the Beta for Vista was only out in force for about a year before it was released to the public commercially. That was 4 years of Longhorn/Vista development that was closely guarded by Microsoft and now all the software and hardware companies are scrambling to become compatible with it.

Apple just has a different business model so they can do things better and easier. Microsoft is JUST software company while Apple is a Hardware company (that also makes great software so you continue to buy their great HARDWARE).

I'm sure a Vista release of Serato will come soon (personally I don't care because I am on a Mac), but I hope my little scenario above helps you understand why it's not here yet.