DJing Discussion

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Mac vs PC for Scratchlive (Pros And Cons)

j_dim 2:43 AM - 30 December, 2004
I am starting thing thread for helping people to decide which platform they would prefer Mac or PC:
Please list pros and cons of your Platform Mac/PC
Please Copy and Paste and please add any information that may help Thanks!

Platform:

Brand:

Favorite features/Software:

Music Format Used (Bitrate):

Overall CPU Performance:

Handy Extras:

Affordability:

Stability:

Extra Comments:
j_dim 2:48 AM - 30 December, 2004
Lets keep this thread going, because I myself am still confused of which notebook functions the best for Scratchlive. To make things easier for all of us DJs!!

Platform + Specs: PC Pentium 4 2.2 Ghz, 512 MB, 60 Gb

Favorite features: Track Pre Analyzer (Program) Saves me time

Overall CPU Performance: Good (Mac might be more stable) Jazzy Jeff and Cash Money both use Apple Powerbook 15" 1.5 Ghz?? Ram

Handy Extras: Audio Editing Software on Windows is User friendly

Affordability: PC is very affordable compared to mac/hardware upgrade can be done easily, and software is cheaper compared to Mac

Stability: Hard Disk Partitioned into 2, Have to apply Windows tweaks

Extra Comments: The Pentium M Chips are way faster than the G4's on the Apple Powerbooks but the Mac has a more stable OS, Hard Disk speed and storage now goes up to 80-100 gigs (Internal 2.5") with speeds of up to 5400 rpm. New Laptops will be coming out in 2005, they will be faster machines. so its time to save up and do some research on Notebooks for Scratchlive
PS: Im wondering when they will make a scratchlive 2.0 and i wonder how much more powerfull it could get
j_dim 2:54 AM - 30 December, 2004
I left this out

Music Format Used: Wav + Mp3(320)
nik39 9:27 AM - 30 December, 2004
There are allready a couple of threads with a mac vs pc discussion and also a dedicated thread where users are listing their specs and pros and cons. Dont understand why we would need another one.
Revolutionary 10:03 AM - 30 December, 2004
www.scratchlive.net Check out this one...
DJ White Lightning 6:31 AM - 8 February, 2005
CAUSE MACs RULE


So about a year ago, the SO finally upgraded her Net connection to DSL, carefully installed the Yahoo! DSL software into her creaky Sony Vaio PC laptop and ran through all the checks and install verifications and appropriate nasty disclaimers.

And all seemed to go smoothly and reasonably enough considering it was a Windows PC and therefore nothing was really all that smooth or reasonable or elegant, but whatever. She just wanted to get online. Should be easy as 1-2-3, claimed the Yahoo! guide. Painless as tying your shoe, said the phone company.

She got online all right. The DSL worked great. For about four minutes.

Then, something happened. Something attacked. Something swarmed her computer the instant she tried to move around online and the computer slowed and bogged and cluttered and crashed, and multiple restarts and debuggings and what-the-hells only brought up only a flood of nightmarish pop-up windows and terrifying error messages and massive system slowdowns and all manner of inexplicable claims of infestation of this worm and that Trojan horse and did we want to buy McAfee AntiVirus protection for $39.95?

Four minutes. And she was already DOA.

My SO, she is not alone. This exact same scenario, with only slight variation, is happening throughout the nation, right now. Are you using a PC? You probably have spyware. The McAfee site claims a whopping 91 percent of PCs are infected. As every Windows user knows, PCs are ever waging a losing battle with a stunningly vicious array of malware and worms and viruses, all aimed at exploiting one of about ten thousand security flaws and holes in Microsoft Windows.

Here, then, is my big obvious question: Why the hell do people put up with this? Why is there not some massive revolt, some huge insurrection against Microsoft? Why is there not a huge contingent of furious users stomping up to Seattle with torches and scythes and crowbars, demanding the Windows Frankenstein monster be sacrificed at the altar of decent functionality and an elegant user interface?


There is nothing else like this phenomenon in the entire consumer culture. If anything else performed as horribly as Windows, and on such a global scale, consumers would scream bloody murder and demand their money back and there would be some sort of investigation, class-action litigation, a demand for Bill Gates' cute little geeky head on a platter.

Here is your brand new car, sir. Drive it off the lot. Yay yay new car. Suddenly, new car shuts off. New car barely starts again and then only goes about 6 miles per hour and it belches smoke and every warning light on the dashboard is blinking on and off and the tires are screaming and the heater is blasting your feet and something smells like burned hair. You hobble back to the dealer, who only says, gosh, sorry, we thought you knew -- that's they way they all run. Enjoy!

Would you not be, like, that is the goddamn last time I buy a Ford?

I see it all around me. All Chronicle employees receive regular email warnings from our IT department about all sorts of viruses that are coming their way and aiming for company PCs. The AP tech newswires are full tales of newly hatched viruses and worms and Trojan horses and insidious spyware programs sweeping networks and wreaking havoc on PCs and causing all manner of international problems, and all exploiting this or that serious flaw in the Windows OS.

Oh yes, the Serious Windows Flaw. This is astounding indeed. It seems not a month goes by that Gates & Co. isn't announcing yet another Microsoft Security Bulletin, one that could cause serious problems for users and networks and millions of Web sites alike, could compromise your personal data and make it very easy for any 10-year-old hacker to waltz right into your hard drive and swipe your credit card info and wipe out all your porn and read your secret emails to the babysitter and won't you please hurry over to Microsoft.com and download Major Windows Security Bug Fix #10-524-5b?

There have been not a few of these dire warnings. There have been dozens. Maybe hundreds. Each more dire and alarming than the last.

And with very few exceptions, every Mac owner everywhere on the planet simply looks at all this viral chaos and spyware noise and Microsoft apologia and shrugs. And smiles. And pretty much ignores it all outright, and gets back to work. (By the way, yes, I own a tiny handful of Apple stock. Do I need to advocate for Mac? Hardly. I'm already happy as can be thanks to the success of the brilliant, world-altering iPod.)

It's very simple. The Mac really has few, if any, known viruses or major debilitating anything, no spyware and no Trojans and no worms, and sure I've been affected by a couple email bugs over the years, but those were mostly related to my mail server and ISP. For the most part and for all intents and purposes, Macs are immune. Period.

I know of what I speak. I am not a novice. I've been using Macs almost daily for 15 years. I am online upward of 10-12 hours a day. I run multiple Net-connected programs at all times. I receive upward of 500 emails a day, much of it nasty spam that often comes with weird indecipherable attachments that try, in vain, to infiltrate my machine. My Mac just shrugs them off and keeps working perfectly. I dump them all in the trash and never look back.

I'm a power user. And I have yet to suffer a single debilitating virus or worm or spyware or malware whatsoever. Not one problem in 15 years, save the time I spilled water in the keyboard of my PowerBook and I took off the back and let it dry out for two days and it worked perfectly.

Oh, I know all the arguments as to why Macs aren't the dominant system in the world. I know Apple screwed up 20 years ago by not licensing its OS, and Gates stumbled in and made a killing by stealing the Mac's look and feel but mangling the actual usability and thus irritating about 150 million people for the next 20 years.

I know Macs are (well, were) more expensive, even though they're really not, when you finally jam that ugly cheapass Dell with enough video cards and sound cards and disk burners to make it comparable to a Mac that comes with all of it, standard.

I know Macs are not perfect, that there have been a handful of serious Apple security fixes over the years, and even a few rumored viruses and spyware apps (though rarely any reports of major server attacks or system shutdowns). I know Apple releases regular security updates of its own. The Mac is not flawless. But it's damn close.

And I know, finally, the argument that says that if the world was using Macs instead of PCs, the hackers would be attacking the Macs. It's a game of numbers, after all. Anti-Mac pundits always mutter the same thing as they install yet another PC bug fix: there just aren't enough Macs out there to warrant a hacker's attention.

Which is, of course, mostly bull. I'm no programmer, but I know what I read, and I know my experience: the Mac OS architecture is much more robust, much more solid, much more difficult to hack into. Apple's software is, by default, more sound and reliable, given its more stable core. (Sometime in the later '90s, a Mac org whose name I forget ran a rather amazing hacker competition: they offered a $13,000 cash prize to anyone in the world who could hack into the company's unprotected Mac server and alter the contest's home page in any way. Needless to say, no one ever could).

Perhaps there is something I'm missing. Maybe there's something I don't understand as to why there is not a massive rush of consumers and IT managers to dump PCs in favor of Macs (or even Linux OS). Surely thousands (millions?) of work-hours have been lost nationwide as tech departments spend untold months debugging and installing PC virus protections and keeping abreast of the latest and greatest worm to come down the pike, all due to Microsoft's lousy software.

Am I being unfair? Maybe. Hell, I'm sure Windows has its gnarled and wary defenders, war-torn and battle-tested folk who still insist that, because there's more software available for the Windows OS, it's somehow superior -- though I challenge them to name one significant, common activity the Mac can't do as well as, if not better than, PCs. For 97 percent of users in the world, Macs would be a more elegant and intuitive and appealing solution. Period.

So then. Here's hoping the new, incredibly affordable Mac Mini converts a hundred million people to Mac in the next year. Here's hoping the borderline illegal and monopolistic domination of Microsoft comes to an end in the next decade. Apple appears poised, finally, again, ready to take over the consumer world. Hell, thousands of glorious iPods have already infiltrated the Microsoft campus up in Redmond, causing MS management no end of humiliation and frustration. Can revolution be far behind?


And what about my SO's PC woes? Well, after her Vaio was so violently debilitated, and after being told by various experts that it would require nothing short of a complete (and very expensive) Windows system debugging and OS reinstall followed by a mandatory soak of the machine in a tub of bleach and then spraying it with a thick coat of road tar as she waved a burning effigy of Steve Ballmer over it while chanting the text of the Official Microsoft 'Screw You Sucker' Windows Troubleshooting Guide, she promptly dumped the useless hunk of sad landfill and bought herself a beautiful new iBook.

And of course, in a year of solid use, she has yet to have a single problem.

Oh wait. I take that back. She has had one nagging issue with her Mac. One program keeps crashing in the middle of her work, for no apparent reason. It is baffling and frustrating and makes you shake your head and want to scream.

The program in question? Microsoft Word.
skutch 7:05 AM - 8 February, 2005
Oh Snap!
j_dim 10:34 AM - 8 February, 2005
I going to cop me a new powerbook!! Peace n Hair Grease
djspicedham 12:09 PM - 8 February, 2005
yeah but macs cant run soulseek and lets face it- soulseek rules: )
nik39 12:17 PM - 8 February, 2005
Like any other p2p service soulseek sucks. Period. :-P So thats not a point for PCs.
Thebasement 12:36 PM - 8 February, 2005
there is nothing wrong with soulseek.
SpinThis! 2:15 PM - 8 February, 2005
whoa. WL are you steve jobs in disguise or something?

oh snap, don't get me started on Apple history. speaking of Microsoft Word, that's the program that Microsoft used to fuck Apple.

Microsoft isn't the enemy--Apple actually shot themselves in the foot by making a deal with M$. Gates didn't copy the look of the Mac--Apple licensed to Microsoft specific parts of the OS to use in Windows 3.1 which got the ball rolling from there. Apple basically gave away the crown jewels for fear of M$ not shipping a version of Word for Mac. When the Mac was still gaining ground, Microsoft had one killer app--Microsoft Word--and they threatened Apple they wouldn't ship a version for Mac if Apple didn't comply. John Sculley, CEO at Apple at the time, gave in.

Quote:
I know Apple screwed up 20 years ago by not licensing its OS

The problem is--and always has been--Apple is a hardware company. Apple actually did make Mac clones, licensing the Mac OS to use back in the early '90s. However, Apple couldn't make money because those clones were stealing share; nobody bought low-end machines from Apple when they could get better price/performance from a 3rd party. Apple execs have been rumored to say until their market share gets to at least 10%, they won't even consider licensing again.

Quote:
.. dump PCs in favor of Macs (or even Linux OS)... thousands (millions?) of work-hours have been lost nationwide as tech departments spend untold months debugging and installing PC virus protections and keeping abreast of the latest and greatest worm to come down the pike, all due to Microsoft's lousy software

You're forgetting a lot of money is not made in desktop sales--it's in the server department. Also in most corporate environments, there needs to be a good server solution--the client is only one end of the deal. Before Mac OS X, to be blunt, Apple's server sucked. Apple is now making inroads in the server market and I have to say, their XSan and XServe servers are pretty decent. The problem is legacy; corporations are Windows-based and have investments in place to last for awhile. Also, anyone who wants get into an IT department has to learn Windows. In other words, that's what the schools teach. (If you want to find Macs in corporations, the biggest group is in publishing--which is the exact opposite--totally mac based.)

Quote:
more sound and reliable, given its more stable core. (Sometime in the later '90s, they offered a $13,000 cash prize to anyone in the world who could hack into the company's unprotected Mac server

That was in the pre-OS X days, which is fair to say that isn't the same Unix BSD core that Apple uses now. Mac OS 9 was a very secure OS (though not entirely stable.) However, you do have a point, and security experts have said BSD UNIX is actually the most secure OS; Windows is actually in second, and Linux, taking up 3rd place. I forget off the top of my head which group it was that polled the study. (I'll look it up later).

Let's not turn this into a Windows vs Mac war... there are plenty of other forums for that.
tehfoiler 6:07 PM - 8 February, 2005
Please don't rant on about spyware. Spyware is user installed software. There was only one or 2 piece of spyware that were installed via "back doors" those companies don't exist any more. If you are and idiot user, you get spyware. I've been using computers for more then 10 years, never had a spyware problem, never had a virus, I don't even run virus scan. I just make sure I have my windows updates. Stop proclaiming apple like it's a god, Windows accounts for over 90% of the platform in the world, thats why it has viruses, becuase it's a huge platform. The whole point of this topic was to compare Mac vs PC not give a biased opinion about macs.
m0rph! 8:36 PM - 8 February, 2005
Quote:
CAUSE MACs RULE... blah blah blah

Hey Mr. Lightning, give credit where credit is due: sfgate.com

;-)
theBrooke 9:08 PM - 8 February, 2005
but we have this www.xfactor.cc and it's awesome... for the record I only use p2p for research purposes. If I like the music I buy it.
dj_ricochet 9:36 PM - 8 February, 2005
Arguments like this make me cringe and are always full of stupid and meaningless metaphors like the automotive industry which is a completely different kettle of fish. So I'll stick to the thread at hand:

Platform: Pentium 1.7M, 1gig RAM

Brand: Dell Inspiron 8600 (laptop)

Favorite features/Software: Cuepoints on vinyl, recording and scratching samples on-the-fly. Fantastic laptop display.

Music Format Used (Bitrate): Mostly VBR ~320kb

Overall CPU Performance: Flawless even with lowest buffer setting and other programs running

Handy Extras: Laptop stand to bring the laptop up above the height of the mixer so it sits easily accessible. I also use other software to calculate the BPMs of the tracks before I import them

Affordability: I would have a second mortgage if I wanted a Powerbook laptop this good... oh wait, they don't come this fast or with a native resolution of 1600x1050 anyway.

Stability: Again, flawless. But I work as a programmer/sysdba so I know how to work Windows/M$ to tweak for the performance I need. If you're a newbie buying a laptop especially for ScratchLive then you should certainly consider the Powerbook for less heartache.

Extra Comments: With a PC you'll get a far superior power/price ratio and a huge range of software/hardware options. But with that comes the difficulty of choosing and configuring the software from all different vendors with your individual hardware and needs. If you aren't confident with this then go for the generic Powerbook solution.
lancota 10:55 PM - 8 February, 2005
Platform: OSX 10.3.7

Brand: Powerbook, 17"

Favorite features/Software: the fact that it F*%ckin works!

Music Format Used (Bitrate):320kbs

Overall CPU Performance: Good except when the program has to analyze a track on the fly... then I get minor dropouts

Handy Extras: Laptop Stand

Affordability: Not too affordable... though I did go for the all out bomb ass version (1.5 gb ram and 128vid memory, 5400 rmp hd)

Stability: I've only had it crash once... never been able to duplicate that... I was doing other stuff in the background too so that explains it (not like I would be doin anything else but spinnin durring a gig anyway!)

Extra Comments: 17" is way to big for the DJ thing. I got the powerbook for other graphic stuff to, but once I have a better job in my industry I'm ditchin this thing and goin back to a 12"... god I love the portability of that thing!
skutch 4:34 AM - 9 February, 2005
macs are all about the nicotine
djspicedham 4:54 AM - 9 February, 2005
nik have you used soulseek? i was joking when i was suggesting it as the soul (no pun intended) reason to go with a pc over a mac, but ive never actually heard anyone talk trash about it...
diego vega 6:04 AM - 9 February, 2005
For research purposes, Soul Seek ("Soul Seex/SSX for macs) IS available:

chris.schleifer.net

There's also a lot of discussion over at the official soul seek forums about it.

Have a nice day!
DJ White Lightning 10:35 AM - 9 February, 2005
Quote:
Quote:
CAUSE MACs RULE... blah blah blah

Hey Mr. Lightning, give credit where credit is due: sfgate.com

;-)


Blah blah blah, yourself - I never claimed to wirte that! I just copied it.
nik39 1:03 PM - 9 February, 2005
djspicedham, no, I dont use P2P services, only one I tried which was bitorrent for a TV documentary which was aired from BBC and was not able to see it here in Germany. I was not lucky finding the documentary.

Besides that, for legal stuff, bitorrent looks good, nice for complete cd images from certain linux flavors.
SpinThis! 1:08 PM - 9 February, 2005
Quote:
I never claimed to wirte that! I just copied it.

that's called plagarism. never copy and paste anything (especially that much) without citing the source. or better yet, since it's a web site anyway, just post link.
djspicedham 2:37 PM - 9 February, 2005
well um, dont knock it till youve tried it and all that jazz
nik39 3:32 PM - 9 February, 2005
djspicedham, maybe I was not clear enough. I dont want to use this crap. Most of the times you get tracks in shitty quality, plus you promote robbery in a way. Though I sometimes understand people using that services esp. when you buy a CD and you cant listen to it in your car stereo cd player just b/c sony/BMI/universal/whoever put a fu*king copy protection on it... so that customers with legal intentions cant listen to that stuff they paid for, while dudes who break the laws, dont pay anything, get their stuff from p2p services can burn their mp3s on a cd and listen to it in their car stereo... long discussion, not the right thread here.
Revolutionary 3:39 PM - 9 February, 2005
I WANT FRE MUSIC!11!1 LOL CAN ANYONE GIEV ME DA NME OF SUCH A PROGRM?!!???!! OMG LOL!!!
nik39 3:41 PM - 9 February, 2005
Ey, you got the URL for this aol.skript.kiddi talk page? I remember there was such a page, but I cant recall.
Revolutionary 4:20 PM - 9 February, 2005
YAAH I GOT IT1!1! OMG ITS ssshotaru.homestead.com
Rane, Support
Shaun W 6:14 PM - 9 February, 2005
PEOPL3 HAEV WAY 2 MUCH TIEM ON THEYRE HANDS TH3SA DAYS!!!!!!1 LOL

;-)
Revolutionary 6:37 PM - 9 February, 2005
SHAUN IS ON3 OF US!!1!!1!!!!1!!!!!111 WTF LOL
Revolutionary 6:39 PM - 9 February, 2005
U SHUD MAEK THIS STIKY111! OMG LOL SORY FOR HIJAKNG TEH THREAD WIT NOS3NSE11!1!!!1
SpinThis! 7:09 PM - 9 February, 2005
just what we need on this board.. more 12 year olds using aol. ;)
theBrooke 10:24 PM - 9 February, 2005
HOW FUNY IS TAHT PAEG???!? OMG WTF LOL HILARIOUS
djspicedham 1:14 AM - 10 February, 2005
NIK U SOUND KIND OF FUNY ADMITNG TAHT U HAEV NEVER USED DA PROGRM AND TH3N CONTINUNG 2 TOK SHIT ABOUT IT D3SPIET DA FACT U N3VAR USED IT1!!1!! OMG DA QUALITY OF DA TRAKS R 2P NOTCH AKA NOT SHITY1!!! WTF I SUPORT LOCAL AND UNDERGROUND ARTISTS BUT OTHAR THAN TAHT I HAEVNT PADE FOR MUSIC IN 5 Y3ARS1!11! OMG LOL VIVA SUSEK!1!1!!!1111!111!!!!1! OMG LOL PEAEC1!!!!11 OMG
nik39 1:26 AM - 10 February, 2005
DJSPIECDHM JUST B/C I HAEVNT USAD IT DOASNT MAAN I DONT KNOW HOW 2 USE IT OR WUT TYP3 OF STUF IS AVALEABLE THEIR A FREIND OF MIEN USES TAHT P2P SARVIEC AND GUES WUT WHEN H3 SPINS WIT MAH SL SYSTEM ONLY FIELS FROM HIM TEND 2 MAEK TROUBLA1!1!11! LOL AND IF U LISTEN 2 THESE TROUBLA FIELS CAERFULY U WIL HAAR MOST OFTEN A GLITCH AKA FAULTY FIEL CRAP IN MAH AYES!!1!!!11 OMG WTF LOL BUT IF ITS COL FOR U DONT WORY GO WIT IT11!1!! OMG I DONT AND TAHTS MAH CHOIEC )

[ djspicedham, just b/c I havent used it, doesnt mean I dont know how to use it, or what type of stuff is available there, a friend of mine uses that p2p service, and guess what, when he spins with my SSL system, only files from him tend to make trouble. And if you listen to these trouble files carefully you will hear most often a glitch aka faulty file, crap in my eyes. But if its cool for you, dont worry, go with it. I dont and thats my choice ;) ]
Revolutionary 6:53 AM - 10 February, 2005
U GUYS R CRAZY!
WOND3R!!111!1!!!111!!!1111!!!1!111 WTF LOL WUT PAOPLA THINK ABOUT US1111 OMG LOL
LifeAt45RPMS 7:27 AM - 27 April, 2005
back to the topic for a minute....
i resisted mac first due to lack of apps. then imacs way back in the day seemed to do well enough to get a lot more stuff on the market. then, like someone previously mentioned, windows is cheaper to buy more power for you buck. or so i thought. what i didn't know was macs use RISC instead of CISC therefore it doesn't really work to compare dell to ibooks side by side. i think i finally realized the grave errors of my ways when i first purchased reason 2.5. macs, with the factory installed soundcards, have like 8ms of latency. my upgraded windows soundcard has 44ms latency. mac seems to put a lot of quality parts in their comps.
friday, when Tiger OSX comes out, i'm ordering my first mac based system. from the messing around on them that i did in the comp lab, i forsee a long and happy marriage following my divorce from windows.
ps.....and the g4 ibooks (even more than the powerbooks IMO) look damn sexy...and i like pretty things =)
j_dim 6:57 PM - 28 April, 2005
Im glad i made a switch to Mac, but im still going to have both platforms so i get the best of both worlds
s42000 7:21 PM - 28 April, 2005
Quote:
Gates didn't copy the look of the Mac--Apple licensed to Microsoft specific parts of the OS to use in Windows 3.1


Gates/Apple both stole the idea from Xerox, whose software engineers came up with a GUI and Mouse back in the 1972/74 timeframe but the company top suits (stupid idiots) did not think that would go anywhere so they stuck to printers, a big thing at the time for all the IBM stuff out there.

There's even scene from a movie from '72 or '74 with a guy playing around with the GUI and mouse. If I remember the movie I will post it.
SpinThis! 7:32 PM - 28 April, 2005
not true -> www.mackido.com
s42000 8:11 PM - 28 April, 2005
VERY TRUE INDEED

Dont believe that piece. It comes from a Macist quoting other Macists. Those engineers who joined apple and worked on desigining a system came with that Knowledge from Xerox. Xerox had done this before anyone did. Jef Raskin did NOT invent the GUI as he portrays. He worked at Xerox where the idea was born.

Yes Apple, Kroger, KFC, My grandfather all had ideas about a GUI. Xerox built a working one many years before anyone else did.

Quote from www.macos.utah.edu
Quote:


After hiring some of the PARC researchers, Apple became interested in the concepts of the GUI. Apple offered Xerox $1 million in Apple stock to study Xerox's GUI. The Apple engineers played with Xerox's GUI for a day, then went back to Apple and started to work on implementing the ideas they saw.



More sources can be found at:
www.boka-software.com
www.cedmagic.com
SpinThis! 12:22 PM - 29 April, 2005
the point is microsoft ripped off the mac "look and feel." Apple didn't copy the concepts verbatim; they made them their own.
s42000 2:59 PM - 29 April, 2005
Then its a case os semantics ... I will contend Microsoft did not rip off apple, they dont even "look and feel" the same.

They simply borrowed the idea (Xerox's Idea to begin with albeit from Apple)
Serato
Josh 10:15 PM - 9 May, 2005
arstechnica.com <-READ IT
s42000 4:02 PM - 10 May, 2005
Interesting .....
nik39 2:32 AM - 12 June, 2006
Quote:
YAAH I GOT IT1!1! OMG ITS ssshotaru.homestead.com

Bump ;)