Technical ability?

Almost the whole routine was produced in a studio and if you watch the routine again you'll notice that his hand coordination doesn't always match up to what's happening with the sound. It's been picked up by a few pro's too, including at least one former DMC World Champ.

This is the Lance Armstrong technique and it stinks.

It's like going to watch an artist mime at a gig.

Please DMC, bring back the integrity to the competition by having at least one extra challenge of mixing with real vinyl. That way they'll stop the comp turning into a Mickey Mouse competition of fakers.

Yeah, I kinda agree. A lot of the older champs are talking now about what is essentially and bring called, "cheat juggling", which is using these over produced routines to allow the DJ to essentially just go back and forth with out any risk of fucking up. With that being said, I think Fly is actually a really skilled DJ, but after watching this finals routine a few times, there is nothing to take away from it, nothing memorable. Last really good final to me was Shiftee. But even his final wasn't like the old ones that you could watch over and and over. I watched a Diamond Jay Video Rob Swift posted yesterday from 97, that shit had soul, the element of surprise and the possibilty of fucking up. It was a couple dope juggles that killed anything Fly did in that final IMO. To me, the DMC has to do something to bring back the soul of Roc Raida, A-Trak, Craze, that made that competition great. And it's either, no Serato or no preproduced music.

The problem is, there's not a lot of music released on vinyl anymore, also it would be hard to tell if anyone is pre producing sets. The only way I think would be to also have second monitor mirroring the DJs screen, so everything is out in the open. This way it would be truthful and everyone can see what is going on.

You see this happening all the time with live Djs, that produce songs or mixes and just separate the tracks and then play them back as a whole and people go nuts. But this is the DMC, the vail should be pulled.

I think that's a good idea re showing what the DJ has on his screen, especially when this guy Fly was just using a produced show with doubles and miming his routine. He could have just dropped it off on a CD if people don't want a lve set. I noticed his applause at the end of his set was nothing to write home about too, almost as if nobody in the audience cared for what they had heard, so how did he win?

When I used to go to watch these comps live in the 90's, most people were clued up enough to know what was happening. I used to get passes to watch the afternoon heats before the finals and I remember one year (1996) DJ Tommy was favourite to win after those heats. On the night though DJ Noise pulled out of the bag my favourite ever routine and won the competition. That's because it was live and real and people can make mistakes playing live, as Tommy did. But Noise didn't just beat juggle and scratch, he juggled the raps to tell a story and he was musical. A one off that even he hasn't come close to replicating since.

Watchwww.youtube.com

Credit where credit is due. He is dope. I've got a lot to learn from him

DMC been changing since '06 with constructing routines in studios rather than deconstructing existing records... this routine is dope but not too much different from his '08 routine.

for musicality and technicality, Craze's '98 is it.
for battle dissing and boom bap funkiness, its Noize in '96
and for all out precision and skills, Kentaro in '02

Roc Raida 95 is still one of my top 3.

Vajra (Chris Karns) 11, is the only thng recently that had the feel of a funky old routine.

IMO, Ie Merg is resposible for a lot of the bullshit that happened in the DMC. He pressed up vinyl that was produced just for the DMC. He was the first to do that shit and it sucked the soul out of the competion. Again, the dude is a dope DJ, but it ruined the heart of the DMC.

I couldn't really follow this routine... it seemed very pre-contrived and not authentic for some reason.

I hate this dubstep juggling shit that's for sure

they should just pre-produce everything and just twist knobs and throw cake at people and spray champagne everywhere.

TBH I didn't really like that routine, it's like he could just go back and forth with his hands on the fader and touch the record momentarily and it will all still line up.

And it's nothing against DJ Fly because musically speaking, I always loved this routine -> Watchwww.youtube.com and think he's a great DJ.

But when the production is doing all the work and making it seem like there's more going on than there really is, I'm just thinking what's the point?

Kentaro's awesome.

I remember downloading some Le Jad before just to see what the fuss was all about, and when I fucked with it it sounded real cool, but the truth is I wasn't doing that much, my skills are pretty old school and very rusty.

Here's the problem with the current battle scene, as I see it.

I'm no turntablist, but I've been following the scene as a fan since the late 90's (I think A-Trak's win in 97 was my first DMC VHS tape).

Back in the vinyl days, as a kid watching those routines, I could grasp what was happening. It made sense.

It felt like, if I put the hours/weeks/years in on the decks, and dedicated myself like those guys, I really could do something like that with my turns and a crate of vinyl. (I never did, I was a lazy youth).

I watch that set by DJ Fly, and, incredible though it is, even with all my years of watching battles, I haven't got the first clue what he's actually doing.

What I DO know, is that either Fly himself, or someone else, is a very talented producer, and has put a lot of work into making that set what it is.

So now a young kid, watching his first battle videos, sees that not only do you need to put the hours in on the decks, but you need to master a DAW, too. And that's if they can ever figure out how the hell such a routine is produced.

It seems to me that all this overproduced stuff, quite apart from the concern that it is somehow 'cheating', is simply making turntablism less accessible to newcomers than it ever has been.

And that can't be good for the scene. If there's no new blood, it'll get tired and just wither away. Vinyl and turntable culture is under threat enough already, without it's leading lights making the artform appear utterly inaccessible.

That's why I give massive props to guys like Vekked, for trying to bring it back to cutting and juggling actual tracks, and people like Q-Bert and Shiftee, who are always trying to demistify things for beginners.

Someone who wants to learn the guitar, can still just learn the guitar; I worry that learning to be a turntablist has gone so far beyond 'just playing records' now, that the next generation might be put off for life.

Obviously Fly is a super skilled DJ and some of the timing on this routine is amazing but it all seems a bit too synthetic for my liking. The mad dubstep beats, bleeps and noises are getting ridiculous now. Not one iota of soul in that routine.

The thing with these custom sets is that they take away some of the elements of caution within just DJs routine. They no longer have to be worried about needle skipping (and I know skip proof records have been used before, but not to this extent), pitch adjusting etc. It takes away the pressure a lot, which detracts, for me anyway, from the routine

Also, when DJs used to completely flip a track that is well known, that's what used to amaze a lot of people. Think Dexta with Hendrix, and Hangar with the classical music. Now they are just cutting up and juggling unknown bleeps and shit that has been pre produced by someone else. And it is specifically made for the DJ, another reason I don't really like this new style

Like I said, DJ Fly commands our respect because he is an amazing DJ but for me personally, I prefer the older style. I think it's better technically, musically and it could be watched and enjoyed and to a greater extent than today's routines, followed and understood by those not deep into turntablism. I think some of today's routines would alienate someone new to the art.

By the way. My favourite ever routine was DJ Pumps 2 record routine. Funky and almost flawless in execution and technical ability.

Megamix tape DJs that know how to scratch and juggle will contend in DMC. It's not as fun to watch, but it takes a lot of imagination to come up with these mixes. I can watch a 2013 DMC battle set once, appreciate it, and never watch it again. For some reason, I can watch DMC battle sets in the 90s over and over again.

you got a link?

A lot of great points in this thread that I tend to agree with..

but as someone who has battled in DMC both in the times of straight vinyl and now with serato I think I can appreciate both styles...there's certainly something exciting about seeing someone flip records you know and make it sound brand new right before your eyes but I'm also able to enjoy a set with original beats and composition where it may be a little more difficult to decipher all that is being done live vs what was done in the studio...

While I haven't gone over Fly's set with a fine toothed comb, I certainly wouldn't call him a cheater..even though my base is primarily hip hop, on my first impression I thought it was dope...Fly is certainly one of the best tablists around and has earned his place as such

over produced?? yes.. is dude nice.. double yes.. was the set entertaining??? debatable.. There was no wow factor.. i watched the entire 6 min and didnt say "oh shit!!" 1 time.. thats what todays djing is missing.. DMC has become the slam dunk contest of the nba.. A few new things but nuthing exciting. i want to see a full vinyl dmc just to get away from this over produced stuff. where djs have to use creativity to create these sets rather than a studio.....

touch.dailymotion.com

It didn't even place in the top 3 that year but I hear a lot of people say how super dope it was when they look back now. It gets better the longer it goes on.

I can't wait until "THIS" type of battling is classified as "SOMETHING ELSE" and someone decides the go back to "2 (or more) Turntables and a mixer", no computer, no skip less records, no smoke and no mirrors....

It will eventually come back to that, and they might even call it "New".

Isn't the Supremacy battle still vinyl only? Nothing to stop people using custom records though, I guess.

I think what the world really needs, if this is what turntablism will continue to be, is for people to come out and show exactly how such routines are put together.

Right now, there are many great resources to help kids learn the art of scratching and juggling, but as far as I know, all this studio stuff is a closely guarded secret.

It's time for people to share the knowledge if they want to keep the culture alive.

For example, DJ Fly has won the DMC with that routine now. That's locked in history.

So now is the time for him to make a video showing how it was produced. Hell, put the files out there too.

I could go buy the Biz Markie record A-Trak won with in 97, try and recreate the technique he used. So Fly should offer youngsters the same opportunity IMO.

I agree with most of what's said above but just want to point out the irony of people knocking this style on a serato forum, myself included.

As for breaking it down, this kind of relates:

youtu.be

Good call on that link dude. I haven't watched any of Angello's stuff for a while, guess I should have been checking back!

I agree to an extent but I wouldn't be comfortable with showing anyone and everyone what I or anyone else did to make a DMC winning routine. That's not on. If people ain't got the foresight and knowledge to come up with that stuff themselves then that's their problem. That's quality control in my eyes.

Fong Fong has put his routine out with a tutorial. left and right side links there for all to download.

Watchwww.youtube.com

thanks... yeah, back then was very difficult to place cos all the competitors had serious skills

I was there in 2000 and I can honestly say that the Pump set went completely over my head at the time. I loved Mr.Thing's set (3rd place) and Dexta's (2nd) but Craze blew everyone away that year.

There's a million resources for learning the guitar, but no tutorial in the world will make you play like Hendrix.

Should DJ Angelo take all his videos down? If people can't figure out how to do Orbits on their own, that's their problem, right? ;)

It depends whether 'quality control' trumps getting new blood into the scene for you.

As a fan of turntablism, I would prefer the latter, personally.

Videos showing how to do scratches is one thing. Videos showing what tracks, samples, breaks etc you used and how you pieced them together to make a winning routine is another.

Cue a million and one bedroom DJ's making shoddy versions of great routines.

That's a step backwards in my eyes.

A step backwards from a million bedroom DJs buying the same hip-hop instrumentals and Super Seals to recreate the routines of their heroes?

I guess I'm playing devil's advocate here, but I really fail to see how making something less accessible is good for the long-term health of any artform.

But on them battle breaks there are tons of different samples and beats that it would take some great synchronisation to come up with an identical set as another DJ.

Showing them step by step, with the beats, samples included is wack to me.

It may not be the ACCESSIBILITY of new material, but it's poor implementation. Most new DJ's have new used real vinyl to start and no concept of record grooves, "crate digging", sticker placement. All that has been replaced with MP3, instant internet downloads, and multiple cue points. If we want this art form to survive and even develop further, we need to get back to basics - yet at the same time push these new digital frontiers from the ground up.

Words from DMC Founder Tony Prince regarding the recent debate on pre-recorded routines.

"Big debate on whether FLY should have been voted DMC 2013 WORLD DJ CHAMPION. Talk of pre-recording rather then live performance. That is absolute bullshit. The modern DJ uses pre-production (as they have for ten years) and it is the dynamics of what they throw on top of the bed, their personality, their choice of cuts etc.
Even though everyone will not always agree, the judges are the judges and the future has got to embrace the DJ as a producer and as a live performer.
DMC has maintained loyalty to turntablism with the BATTLE, the TEAM allowed C2C to take us to a new level. LET'S NOT STAND STILL - LET'S NEVER GO BACK!
Peace - and long live the creative DJ.
TONY PRINCE."

I've got a lot of respect for Tony Prince and naturally he's entitled to his opinion, but i'm afraid I don't agree with him on this, purely as the outcome of the competition has become a joke to me.

This isn't a raw turntablist contest anymore where people spend months working out and building a routine for a live 6 minute make or break slot, but a competition where DJ's bring a finished production and (probably) mime the shit out of it.

R.I.P. D.M.C.

Damn right and what is even worse - the music they are playing now. Listen to his 2008 routine - no pre pruduction but the same unlistenable bullshit. Keep dubstep/EDM out of DMC it just plainly sucks

You do know what the 'DMC' acronym stands for, right?

Disco Mix Club

So ironic.

homie has got some skills but man that timing was off pretty much from the get go, missing drops, off beat juggles and transitions. i know i couldnt pull that off hands down to fly on his skills, but that was sloppy sorry.

The issue here is that you have cats trying to create a "NEW" sound or production and execute it.

The problem with that, is that the listening audience doesn't necessarily KNOW if you're screwing up or not, cuz you're just throwing sounds around...

But it's REALLY bad when you're making up your "OWN" sound or production, and people STILL call you sloppy...

i wouldnt call it new, it sounds like a spin off of dj unkuts stuff which is the first person to me that i have heard do that. the problem is that it was sloppy. :/

like i said i cant do that homie still has skills but if youre going to bring some new shit to the dmc make sure it is flawless.

Watchwww.youtube.com

i gotta give props to dj fly -

and to all who doesnt disagree with the judges

better practice and battle next year, or proven worthy already to be a judge

=============================================

www.dmcdjchamps.com

DMC World DJ Championships 2013 Results
(Posted On: October 5, 2013)
The 2013 DMC World DJ Championships Results are:


DMC World DJ Championships 2013
1st: DJ Fly
2nd: Ritchie Ruftone
3rd: Jon 1st



DMC World Battle For Supremacy 2013
1st: Ritchie Ruftone
2nd: DJ Vekked



DMC World Team Championship 2013
1st: Mr Viktor, Deksa & DJ Hertz
2nd: Mixfitz



WORLD FINAL 2013 JUDGES' RESULTS

Cash Money - DMC World Champion 1988 & DMC Legend
1. Ritchie Ruftone
2. DJ Fly
3. Jon 1st

Mr. Switch- DMC World Battle Champion 2010/2009/2008
1. DJ Fly
2. Ritchie Ruftone
3. DJ Esquire

Mr. Viktor - DMC World Team Champion 2013
1. DJ Fly
2. Vekked
3. Jon 1st

Mr. Thing - DMC World Team Champion 1999
1. Ritchie Ruftone
2. Jon 1st
3. DJ Fly

Netik - DMC World Champion 2006 & DMC World Battle Champion 2001 and 2002
1. Vekked
2. DJ Fly
3. Jon 1st

Chris Karns - DMC World Champion 2011
1. Ritchie Ruftone
2. DJ Fly
3. Esquire

DJ Woody - Champion
1. Ritchie Ruftone
2. Jon 1st
3. DJ Fly

A-Kut - DMC Switzerland Champion 2013/2012
1. DJ Fly
2. Jon 1st
3. Ritchie Ruftone

KCL - DMC Denmark Champion 2013
1. DJ Fly
2. Vekked
3. Ritchie Ruftone


1st DMC Champion - DJ Fly - 20 points
2nd Ritchie Ruftone - 16 points
3rd Jon 1st - 9 points
4th DJ Vekked - 7 points
5th DJ Esquire - 2 points

Results - 1st place - 3 points / 2nd place - 2 points / 3rd place - 1 point

I agree here. It reminds me of the Smirnoff MoTM show with this 'DJ producer' concept and crummy music tossed in. DMC will be remembered with two eras (B.C. / A.D.), Before Crap and After Dubstep.

... wait, was that a Jesus pose DJ Fly did at the end?

They might as well add in lights, go-go dancers and stage props too like MoTM. It's the "future"... just "embrace" it because it's part of a DJ's "live performance". SMH

(nm)

You guys didn't hear?? DMC stands for Dubstep Mixing Contest!

LoL ^^^

Considering the forum we're posting in, it's surprising how little that has been commented on actually...

I hear you guys, the routine itself isn't all that but I still think Fly was smart to do that cuz that's what wins these days. If it was up to me, Vekked would have been the winner

Looked like he played a programmed track off the sp6 then threw stuff over the top.

I agree i like the old dmc more......everyone knows hip hop was better in the 90s

Just watched it again... I can only think Milli Vanilli when describing this routine. I can see young controller-era cats appreciating this and calling it battling or "progression" but I don't. It's either cheating, fake or just so advanced that it's beyond my comprehension. I see Cash Money and Chris Karns didn't have that guy in the top spot in judging.

Did he even touch the pitch controls? I think somebody needs to really expose the fakeness going on in this routine. Check out :37 - :39 and :43 - :46... he manipulates the up/down fader on the right-side deck but the music never disappears. I call shinanagins...

(nm)

Might just be me but I didn't feel like the routine had a soul. Sterile, mechanical, emotionless. Technically sound but nothing that made me 'oh shit'...Very Ivan Drago

^ looks like instant double trick, but instead of similar track, he produced swap vocals/instrumentals in left deck, after a beat, vocal will go to the other deck - same goes to the last track he played, he can just load instrumental to the left deck and load instrumental+vocal in the right deck so you can cut the vocals

rafik's routine sounds cooler i think (absolute mode in traktor so needle will skip :)
Watchwww.youtube.com

This sounds like one of those "cool story bro" explanations.

The old battles you could show to a non DJ and they would understand what is going on to a point.

These new ones we cant even figure out wtf happened.

No mainstream appeal at all.

It is what it is. He knows what he has to do to pull off the win so he does it (don't hate the player, hate the game). But if that's what the DMCs are now, I'm not interested. I'm definitely more interested in seeing Vekked's style when watching "turntablism".

I agree. I was trying to bob my head to this, and it just wasn't working.

The biggest part of the responsibility lies on DMC.

DMC controls the rules and direction they want to go with the nature of the competition, not the participants. When they embraced custom dub plates, and equalized them as being the same as scratch tools, they allowed for all the bullshit that came after that. If they wanted they could simply place Rafik or Netik 2nd/3rd and kill that whole era right at the doorstep. Now it's already too late and with such unfortunate events as this year's pick, they are only making things even worse for them.

I foresee all the dope DJs jumping ships to IDA by the next 2 years and DMC left only with crippled DVS playbacks and handsyncing, until its officially dead again.

Not sure what IDA is but yeah, the DMC has officially jumped-the-shark...

IDA, formerly known as ITF, is the all-included DJ contest these days. Think DMC but with any midi controller allowed for use with DVS, plus controllerist routines.

Okay... with the controllerismic aspect in the competition, what's to stop their battles from becoming the same technical debauchery seen in DMC?

Honestly, I got to say the DMC HAS been dead for a minute. I'm surprised this conversation didn't come up last year when that god awful routine by that Japanese dude, who I don't know the name of, won and Persicion did a "real" DMC type set with Serato, and got 2nd I think. He murdered that dude, and somehow nobody saw it. Maybe they gotta get a better point system or less judges or whatever. If they don't there is just gonna be a giant sucking sound where the the soul use to be in the DMC.

Yeah, I had to google IDA myself.

Agree. I wonder if the DMC staff is reading this.

I'm telling you...

Vinyl only, no computers is the FUTURE.....

In competitions or DJing in general?

Hopefully competitions!

Vinyl will almost become extinct for DJ'ing in the future...

But COMPETITIONS will eventually get so saturated with Push-Button battling, no holds barred, pre-preduction "DJ"'s that SOMEONE will eventually "Discover" that it's so far detached from where it began, that they will "bring it back Old School"....

Amen! I thought I was the only one last year that believed the same about Precision.

To make things even worse, has anyone checked the team's winning routine for this year, as posted by Sennheiser? I am starting to have serious doubts as to whether there is something wrong with me or something is terribly wrong with DMC judging. That thing was just a bit more complicated than a typical scratch session between 2 DJ's. For half the set I was missing what the dude on the right was actually contributing to the final sound playing...

Like I said, there should be screen mirroring the DJs screen. It would help to figure out what everyone is doing, instead of really fast action that's heard to distinguish. I would also believe this would help people/DJ's get into it more. I remember buying DMC tapes as a kid and watching and learning from them. Now I watch them and have no idea what's going on. Faders going down, but sound still coming out…etc.

Good idea.

Niro,

it could be a start but even with live screen feedback things will not be immediately distinguishable. For example, someone could hide the SP-6 and still trigger sounds from the backround, even whole songs.

They need to bring DMC judging back to the roots. Are you doing heavy juggles? You need to prove that with your hand movements, not just the sound coming out. Also the DMC judges must start kicking out DJs who try to go the tricky way.

Or, they need to finally let go of all limitations in external controllers, decks used etc. and see what the DJs can come up with.

That was very cool, Thanks!

They should also submit the digital wav files they use for their sets as well. For the judges to listen to and review after the competition. Maybe give the judges a few days to vote?

That's too much... but it seems that's what things have come to in this digital DJ world.

2 turntables and a mixer.

I personally wouldn't be against them making the DJ competition back to basics. Let there be a separate, less honorable, award given to the fully digital dudes. I still think the whole competition jumped-the-shark though and there's no way back to the true glory days. It kind of started with guys having custom records printed up and doing whole sets with just two or three records.

Agreed.

Just saw this thread, thanks to the people who mentioned me for the props :D.

A few things I disagree with:
-the DMC should go back to vinyl
-that it's DMC's fault this set won
-the judges are rigged/wrong/at fault
-that he's miming

DMC DOES have a vinyl only category call supremacy. I've battled in in the last 2 years, and it's a huge pain in the ass in 2013 because you simply can't get vinyl like you used to be able to. I remember up until 06-07ish I could still go to Toronto and hit up multiple big record shops and get tons of wax to bring home and work on routines with. Now the biggest record shop has about 10% of the stock it used to, and most of the smaller shops are closed or moved on to selling completely different stuff. The only people who say it should go back to vinyl are people who don't compete and haven't tried to make a routine in years so they don't see how much things have changed. IF vinyl was still as available as it once was, it might be a reasonable suggestion, but it's simply not reality anymore. Even people who crushed competition in the real vinyl era would have an infinitely harder time making routines at the same level with real vinyl now.

It's not DMC's fault, or the judge's fault, or whatever, that weaker sets or produced sets or dubstep sets are winning. The main people at fault are the other competitors not making sets good enough to challenge the guys winning. Fly deserved to win this year, Izoh deserved to win last year, period. Did I like their sets? Not really. But the rest of the competitors were either making similar sets but not as good, made mistakes, or were just too weak overall. It's not like there are people making sick ass 6 min sets and DMC has some conspiracy to hold them down. DMC is just a reflection of the current state of DJing as a whole. People are far more likely to spend hours learning software than learning techniques, and are more interested in new equipment and features than new patterns and ideas.

DJing is in a bubble right now where everyone has delusions of becoming a superstar and technology is improving at an insane rate because there's heaps of money being thrown around in it right now. Maybe one day the bubble will burst and things will balance out a bit, and people will focus on mastering their craft more than scooping up as much loot as they can get, who knows.

And yea he's not miming. If you're just watching this set in isolation it might be kinda over-whelming but sets have been trending towards being more and more edited/produced/lined up since about 04 so it's been a gradual change... if you go back and watch the finals of the past few years it makes it a bit more obvious that he has just taking the editing/production another step. The thing with Fly is that he's a very good producer himself, whereas most people in the past have relied on someone else to produce their set, so since he can do everything on his own his set is a bit more over the top.

He WAS Miming Certain Parts. Watch It Again And Again If You Don't See It.

This is some really good insight from a guy who IS there and competing right now in a competition that is evolving before our eyes.

I'm a 2 turntables and a mixer style DJ. I scratch and beat juggle just like I did when I started DJing with regular vinyl in 1997. That being said, I use SSL, cue points, auto loop, and I even (gasp)... look at waveforms once in a while. Do I think turntables will be extinct in 5 yrs? No. But, if you look at the advances that have been made in the technology within the last 10 years, it's impossible to think that we'll be using this exact same format 10 years from now. The DMC should and does reflect this change.

IMO, it's really up to the competitors to step away and see that we're in a transitional phase. The guy/gal that can peer into the future and find a way to revolutionize the competition format will be the one that will take us all to the next plateau. I'd argue that this has already been done in the DMC. Think DJ Cheese 1996 (first to scratch) or Craze in 1999, 2000 (techno, EDM type stuff) or Kentaro in '02. This WILL happen again and the DMC will remain relevant for a long time. It's just kinda crappy right now.

I'm sure people who bought sports cars in the mid 80's or cell phones in the early 2000's didn't think to themselves "I guess we're in a transitional period and these things will be better in the future". It's hard to see that clearly sometimes but, it's absolutely ludicrous to think that there will never be another innovative/progressive routine in the DMC.

Somebody will blow us all away using this new technology with technicality, musicality, and soul. After reading what Vekked has to say about all this, I'm hoping he'll be that guy. I'll be routing for you.

Guys we all have to realize that our art form is evolving into something else. Pre production is part of the business now because the listeners are clearly bored with original tracks so they over producing sets and music and movies are were are headed. Total automation will ensue in the near future. Ive bit the bullet myself and started remixing and pre producing certain aspects of my set as well and the crowd honestly response better because this is just the direction we are heading. Yes I will always use turntables but the art form is changing and sadly we are becoming dinosaurs so keep up guys.

Im sorry but this is future I sucked it and banged out stupid sick as mix for a electronic dance scene and I had to go back and remix and reproduce so much stuff just to do more than scratching and juggling the poeple want it so I gave it to them how they like it.

The DMC is no different its changing guys its just changing as sad as it is the sun has set on a lot of that stuff. We have flash in the pan retro type styles that can poke through the scene but honestly it is what is with this DJ shit.

That shit was dope I cant even begin to deconstruct is set anymore than I could DJ Fly's this set blew me away unlike DJ Fly's the juggling I cant keep up

I just hope that one day that the two extremes don't seem so diametrically opposed. Hopefully that day is sooner than later. The day where any layman can recognize true talent and appreciate it for what it is and the work that goes into being good. Once that happens maybe the compensation pendulum swings back in the other direction...When talent over celebrity brings bodies in the door.

I guy can wish...

Vek, all due respect but I disagree. It's not only about performances but general direction too.

When Cheese won the title with the first ever scratch/rap set, other DJs heavily complained because they prepared dance/disco sets with just mixing tricks, i.e. the general direction of the competition up to that point. DMC decided to stay on that track (by honoring again scratch sets with future titles) and boom, 5 years later the whole turntablist movement exploded. I'm sure that at least half of these disco sets were flawless but DMC decided to pick the OG (but initially very sloppy) scratch sets because they thought they were more cool.

Moving on forward, what are they trying to do exactly now? Push DJs to where? Pre-produced, forward movement only sets? What will this bring in for the artform?.

Also, I'm sorry but most people are not interested in the Supremacy titles. A champ is still a champ, but the holy grail has always been the main 6 minute event and they are currently destroying it.

What I would like to see is this same style done with actual wax.

I think people are missing the changing of records, tricks and personality behind the sets.

There are some features I made a while back to add a more 'authentic' vinyl experience if one chooses to do that in their set.

Think about though, if us as DJ's could have pressed our our vinyl in mass amounts back in the day, the 'produced' routine would have been happening at a larger scale a long time ago.

Correction...

There are some features I made a while back to add a more 'authentic' vinyl experience if one chooses to do that in their set.

There are some feature requests....

The DMC's Best Days Are Behind Them. Nothing But Downhill From Fly On... Unless The Dj Is 'Precision''.

(NM)

There is a way to make your set more authentic, I've just yet to see someone do it now.

I was wondering about this myself, something doesn't add up. Not I don't think FLY can actually do this.

It just seemed like some of the routine didn't match. I would have to see this live because I thought it was just a glitch in the video or something.

RESPECT to you for knowing your HipHop DJ history - AKA DJ Cheese.

Precision is dope but just way over board with the technical part and to me his routines are just as lifeless as DJ Fly's granted they are different style but I cannot dig Precisions routines just to much going on I cant follow it either and I know what he's doing as supposed to Fly.

My favorite DMC routine is toss up between Shiftee in 2009 and Craze in 98 just my opinion

Blasphemy!

You call this overboard and lifeless? Watchwww.youtube.com

This is Precision pretty much assimilating to advances in technology: Watchwww.youtube.com
... even though he's crazy fast, you can still follow this and see he's doing every dope thing that comes out your speaker (unlike that fake pre-perfect-produced sch!t Fly mime'd to).

(nm)

Precision is probably the most skilled battle DJ right now. He's killing it both hands and pretty much he took the classic X-cutioners style and brought it to the new millennium.

The only disadvantage I see in his sets is the weak song selection. Skill wise, required for a battle, he is unmatched, period. But the songs/beats he is using are not the dopest out there.

It is sad he has not been awarded yet a world title. Only DJs like him can inspire others to practice more, like Craze (aside other things) forced everybody to think their other hand, besides the strong side.

Just my opinion on Precision his skilled is not a question. I would not battle him, however I think he is a little to technical on his last routine I should have been more specific. It was just to much going and although I knew what he was doing it was hard act to follow even for me but maybe thats a testament to my own skill.

Song selection to me is most important and during his latest routine the songs were not that great I never got that head bop going (nm). Just my opinion on it I know he's dope without question

Watchwww.youtube.com

did not like this routine although he is sick on the cut I just dont like the routine very much.

Watchwww.youtube.com

This routine was awesome

So I should have been more specific I didnt like his latest routine for Supremacy. I have been practicing on both hands cause I would like to compete in the DMC because I want to bring my own flavor to the battle which no one has my style so it may work but I still need 5 more years on the decks Im still not ready.

Gaffle I agree Fly's routine was a over board with the pre production but in this day and age some pre production is ok but not to the point of DJ Fly's latest routine but Im not hating because I dont need Precision or Fly coming at me cause I dont wan war with them.

I'm a DJ Precision fan and I don't care what Fly thinks. I'm a Network Engineer by career and a grown man so a cyber gripe wouldn't phase me.

I will say, it's apparent Fly has major turntable skills but his winning set was/is a total farce and not a good look for the future of DMC DJ battle competitions.

(nm)

Hmmm....

I have to respectfully disagree with you there...

If you think about it, who needs NEW joints to cut up?

Even IF vinyl was still available in abundance, who's gonna cut up Drake, Lil Wayne, or Soulja Boy?

The truth is that the decent music really faded when vinyl physically faded...

If you're talking DUB or Drum/Bass, then I can't comment, I'm only speaking from a Hiphop perspective.

None of Today's joints are worth putting in a routine, as most of them have outlandish intros, skits, and changeups during the course of these songs anyway.

That being said, the late 90's - early 2K joints are probably your best bet, and truth be told, a BIG part of DJ'ing was the fact that you had to CRATE DIG ANYWAY...

On one hand, yeah your local record store is probably closed, but on the other hand, you've got the internet, ebay, and Craigslist...

You can virtually CRATE DIG across the country and have it shipped to you...

Yeah, it's harder, but it's not impossible, as vinyl heads do it ALL the time...

BTW, respect for being a DMC'er...

No. He did some kinda lame stuff but there's no "miming". If anything his set is edited in a way that it sounds like a song is just playing... like at times like during the intro if I wasn't watching I wouldn't be able to tell that he's even touching the turntables... which kind of defeats the purpose to use the turntable as an instrument when he's doing as much as he can to make it sound like he's not manipulating the track.



There was no "general direction of the competition" up until 1986. 1986 was the first DMC world final. There was a 1-off battle in 1985 for the UK championship the year before which is technically the first DMC event, but Cheese won the first DMC world title, with scratching. So DMC wasn't a mixing battle or a disco battle up until that point, it has been won by scratching since the very first world final.

Not trying to be a dick, but I've heard people talk about the general direction of DMC, or that it began as a mixing competition, or a disco battle, or whatever similar stuff, but that's not really the case. What happened was DMC had it's first world final in 1986, and most of the European DJs came with slower paced mixing and a tiny bit of scratching. Cheese came from the NMS battle in the USA and brought a faster-paced/showy/scratch heavy set and blew them out of the water, and that set the tone for every year after that. Just putting it in perspective because I've went back and listened to all the audio I can get my hands on from 80s battles, and discovered that people embellish the origins of DMC and how scratching came into it.

I'm not sure what your point is otherwise... you're speaking like DMC chooses the champions themselves as an organization. They pick the judges, and the judges pick the winner. This year the judges happened to be mostly previous world champions because it was the champions' Summit. There's no agenda behind Fly winning besides he was the best set that night. The top 3 DJs behind Fly consisted of:

A DJ who did a similar style set to Fly in many ways, a DJ who probably had the best set but had technical difficulties, and myself who did a more traditional set but just wasn't what the judges were looking for that night. There wasn't much to choose from.

And you're right, most people aren't interested in Supremacy but it's still pure vinyl, no effects, and most years since 2002 it has actually been a stronger/more interesting/more competitive battle. So if people don't want to ignore it, while simultaneously complaining about the 6 mins not doing the things it does right, that's their loss. I'm not even sure if most DMC fans even like turntablism or DJing or if they just like DMC itself.

@ Vekked,

But wasn't Fly just chasing extremely small slices so he could still baby scratch to the next phrase of the bar making it sound fluid?

Actually just made me think, the guys that cut and battle, we should start a thread about that discussing various things of this nature.

If anyone is interested that is.

I hear you, but it's hard to fully understand how much things have changed if you don't actively make routines... sure in theory it doesn't seem to be an issue since you can still buy vinyl online and stuff right? Consider this:

Some routines I made required as many as 8 copies of the same record, especially if I was using 1 specific part of the record that didn't occur anywhere else on it. So I'd use doubles to come up with the routine, and wear them out. Doubles to practice the routines and refine it, wear them out. Doubles to prepare for battle/use as backup, and keep clean ones for the actual competition. Not only did I need 8 copies of the same record, I needed 8 flat copies. Perfectly flat, no bowl warps. I'd go to the record store, open up every copy of the same record and find the flattest ones. Back when singles were being pressed constantly you could go in and grab 4 copies at a time easy, and have a few to select from to get the best copies.

It'd be so tedious/expensive/impossible to do the exact same thing now. You'd order 2 copies on the internet, pay extra shipping, wait a couple weeks, receive records. If you get lucky and they're flat you can start working on your routine. Once you wear them out, look for doubles on the internet, probably from 2 different people, order them, pay extra shipping, wait a couple weeks. So it costs probably double the price, and takes 5x as long as it did when record stores and vinyl was abundant. Oh but you could just get doubles and rip them and then practice on Serato right? Yea... and then it kind of defeats the purpose of forcing yourself to use vinyl anyways. So although it's theoretically possible, you have to go so absurdly out of your way to try and make a full 6 minute routine on vinyl, that it's not even really worth it.

In fact I'm 100% sure it would be less expensive to create your routine complete on Serato, then press each song yourself individually to a piece of vinyl as if it was the original vinyl single instead of going the internet purchasing route. You could probably press 50-100 copies for ~$600 which I can't see being more than the amount you would pay for all the vinyl needed for a 6 minute routine when you factor in shipping and stuff, and you could get all of your records from the same source

Also about new songs not being worth making into routines... Here's a short list of the tracks I've used in my routines in the past 2 years in chronological order:

-The Junglebook - Wanna Be Like You
-The Pixies - Where Is My Mind
-Krs-One - Black Cop
-Cypress Hill - Insane In the Brain
-Lenny Kravitz - Fly Away
-Busdriver - Imaginary Places
-Tremendo Boogaloo - B-Boy remix of a Salsa classic (2008)
-Aloe Blacc - I Need A Dollar (2010)
-Jay-Z - Otis (2011)
-Travis Barker - Lets Go (2011)
-A-Trak - Ray Ban Vision (2011)
-Chase n Cache - Untitle Instrumental (2011)
-El-P Full Retard (2012)
-Thugli - What Happened (2012)

I use a pretty wide variety of tracks both in genre and era. I'm still a vinyl digger and a lot of my routine ideas start on vinyl, but I'm still open to good music from recent. I agree that in some ways music/hip-hop has gone down hill but there's still the odd gem that pops up and that's enough for me. It's hard enough to come up with routines without limiting myself to a certain pool of music. Just for interest here's a showcase I did that uses most of the tracks in that list :). I like to think I still preserve some of the traditional turntablism/hip-hop/battle routine values even though I'm from a newer generation and perform on Serato.

Watchwww.youtube.com

Yea that's roughly what he's doing. It's kind of lame/corny, but it's not miming. If anything it's just watered down. He's doing it, but what he's doing just isn't that much at some parts.



A little shameless plug but this is good timing. I actually put up a website today dedicated to turntablism/turntablist discussion. Check it out and sign up if you like the idea :) turntablistworld.com

Haha agreed. Precision is my fav beat juggler of all time and his routine last year is my fav routine since at least 2009 (Shiftee). Precision has mad style and dope integration of new technology.

^ Cool I will check it out!

8 copies of the same song? I mean, yeah I can't talk, -> www.djjohnnym.com , but the MOST battle cats have a set to practice with, and a set to showcase the routine with...

So, that's half...

Maybe that's your workflow, but all the cats I've known have 2 sets of copies for the routines.

Again, maybe that's limited to the HipHop genre, but that's what I've seen so far...

Sure, a lot of times all you need is 4 copies, especially if you're using doubles of a hip-hop instrumental where you can use multiple parts one the same record if you wear out a section. It all depends on the routine/what part of a track you're using, but I think 4 copies is pretty much the best case scenario. But yea, the combination of shipping price + shipping times + the inability to cherry pick the best copies and avoid warps... it just makes it harder and take way longer to do everything that people did up until the early 2000s.

The custom record movement in DMC before Serato was allowed basically developed out of battle DJs feeling suffocated by the downfall of record shops and vinyl production. You can see the shift in battles from about 2001 (where it pretty much peaked) until 2005 where track selection started to get stale really quickly a short period of time. Then in 04/05/06 people started pressing their own beats/songs/samples in an attempt to stand out from everyone else as the pool of good vinyl hip-hop singles began to shrink. And needless to say, it has only gotten worse for record shops since then.

I might be talking broadly here but this boils down to us as DJ's.

Technics got discontinued and there was a post where I said if all of us DJ's pooled together we could have asked what it would have costed to buy the rights to the patent, etc. It could have been outrageous but information and knowledge is powerful.

The vinyl decline was affected by the mass market but once again if everyone was still buying tons of vinyl this wouldn't have been an issue.

Availability is a problem too as well, I recently became a dealer for DJ gear because where I'm located it VERY limited and it's time to have someone knowledgeable behind it. Not saying that I know everything but I'm actually a DJ. Ha ha

We have a wicked record shop here called Vintage Vinyl where I still buy records but they don't have a huge Hip-Hop or new section. Why because they had horrible sales, so I can't even fault them.

I don't know if we have the power to shift everything but as a collective effort we could definitely shift it.

A river can't go backwards, maybe turn left or right, but never turn around.

The whole DJing realm is now completely shifted. Forget about going back to vinyl, this will never happen again and to be honest I believe it's good that way. We've been stuck with the same blueprint for the act of DJing for like 25 years, it was about time to go somewhere else (controllers & DVS).

Technics may be dead but to be honest, the mk2 has outlived its market potential by stratospheric proportions. Look at the PDX 3000mk2, that is were turntables should be right now and they are perfectly on sale. So, talking about Technics is actually irrelevant.

Nevertheless, the discussion about DMC should go on. They can still influence the whole scene and what they are doing right now with their competitions is not OK at many different levels.

Technics are not irrelevant in the sense that they are still the standard in the DMC competition.

So if they open it up to use other brands of turntables, then fine.

People can argue this next point:

DVS was inevitable and there is good and bad to it.

My humble opinion is the creativity and skill a DJ needed to do routines on vinyl supercedes what is needed on DVS.

It's true....

However, evolution is evolution.

There is ways to make the visual element more interesting with DVS use just like regular vinyl.

Just no one is doing it yet.

More so you could use both in your set as well, vinyl and dvs if you wanted quote/unquote 'Keep it Real'.

There is a lot we can discuss here.

This is true.

My take is this.

Records were typically the common denominator across all the battles.

It wasn't really meant to be used (cutting/scratching) as it is being used, but that's what elevated the artform.

It was the simplest form element to keep the art alive.

Only when they altered that simplest element, aka skipless records, DJ Tools Records, etc..etc.., did the element go in a different direction.

Now you've gone from using something that wasn't designed to be used a certain way, to using tools that are DESIGNED to be used that way....(Think today's crossfaders, cut-in adjustments, magnetic faders, turntables built with interchangeable parts depending on how you wish to set up, (battle vs. disco), mixers with bpms, sample banks, etc..etc...

As this develops, it's no longer having the DJ "earn his stripes" (i.e. learn to mount a cartridge, learn to backspin without virtual cue points, needle drop, crate dig, etc..etc), it becomes a bunch of pre-production, and a lot of button pushing....

Just my .02.

I agree with what you say.

Yes technology has evolved the way we DJ but it will also waterdown the technical skills acquired previously to get the level.

I know what you mean.

For instance, something as simple as learning how to have a soft touch so you don't bounce/skip the needle while juggling, etc.

Without having worry about that, someone would be disastrous when it comes to using straight vinyl.

^^THIS^^ is why I say bring back straight vinyl. (Didn't know the World Supremacy was still down like that, so that's cool...), but that common denominator levels the playing field...



So what if you can't find the flattest record?

That was part of the game...

To be honest, you having the ability to OPEN as many records as you felt necessary before buying it was a plus in your area....

LOTS of record stores didn't allow that....so you were already tilting the odds in your favor...

Not dissing, just saying you did what you felt necessary to do...

On top of that, just look at all the things tilted in the DJ's favor ANYWAY...

You've basically got indestructible turntables with customizable pitches, a CHOICE between straight or "S" shaped tonearms, crazy vibration isolation, REVERSE, digital pitch displays, return to Zero buttons, a complete MENU of needles DESIGNED for scratching, and the list goes on and on...

We as DJ's are ALREADY ahead of the curve...

Hunting for records is the only thing left....lol.

^ This true, I love when I can actually go record shopping. That was the fun part of it all, finding gems, etc.

Guys, technical advancements are always a welcomed thing, we shouldn't even be discussing that.

Otherwise everybody should stick to OG 500's for needles and busting themselves to keep 2 bars of a juggle without skipping. Isn't that keeping it real? DMC's were won with those needles...

Are you allowed to use different turntables yet or is it mandatory to use 1200's still?

But see, the technical advances, are watering down the original art.

We're not talking about DJ'ing for a club, we're talking about the "Art" of "DJ"ing in a battle sense.

^ People won't get it....

I agree... 5 years from now, you'll have DJ battles with absolutely no TT's and dudes performing like this: Watchwww.youtube.com

... but don't knock it because the 'production aspect' should be fully embraced as a part of DJ'ing now according to some of ya'll. I don't like 'pre-production' in DJ battles but it's a lost cause.

(nm)

Yeah that's exactly what made me buy Traktor - I was so sick of warped doubles and even my Traktor timecode vinyl is not flat really. I called the NI support and asked for absolutely flat timecode vinyl. Guess what they replied: that's like asking for booking a flight with a plane that will absolutely not crash ;-(

Sorry for getting OT - I understand you don't like the idea of serato getting banned from DMC

I agree with all... but try to google "dj Fly" + "scratch session" he's one of the very best.
Too bad he listen shit music...

@Vekked : you got skills !!! You remember me french "Crazy-B"

I remember Crazy B from the old DMC videos. Had dungarees lol. I'm not sure if it was the same guy but some DJ used to have his turntables both on the same side next to his mixer.

wow I loved a lot of the Crazy B routines over the years..

btw here's a version of the set I did at the US finals this year (tho it's pretty sloppy & there are some record skips) Watchwww.youtube.com

Dope video SpareChange. I remember when I saw you at the Tennessee DMC and you did that behind the back scratch move. Good stuff.

Pump does this routine on the Calm Before The Storm video and pulls it off even cleaner than he did in the DMC. Also, on the same vid, Noize does some damn work:

Watchwww.youtube.com

Ok, I finally finished reading the whole thread, and a few things come to mind:

1. Vekked, you are really really good. I also agree with what you say. NH

2. Technology advances versus all-vinyl; pros/cons: There is an oldish (1997, so old in this context) book titled The Innovators Dilemma by Clayton M. Christensen. It is about this phenomenon, and heavily uses examples from hard drive disc technology (which has gone through tremendous and drastic shifts through the past 40-50 years, much more so than Djing technology).

Essentially, what the book addresses is the reality that sustaining technology struggles versus disruptive technology for a variety of reasons, and that disruptive technology is championed by new entrants and target a different niche, but over time, the capabilities of the disruptive technology become on par with and sometimes supersede the older tech. In regards to hard drives, they used to be massive, and for early mainframes, physical size of the drive was not a concern as long as it could hold greater amounts of data at a decreasing incremental cost per MB (at that time). The original drives were massive, but eventually a standardized 14 inch drive came to be commonplace. The disruptive innovation, the 8 inch drive, was of no concern to the mainframe storage market, as at the time, the cost per MB of storage was much greater than with the larger traditional drives. But the 8 inch drive was perfect for what was dubbed at the time as 'microcomputers'. In time, though, the 8 inch drive was able to provide storage at a cost per MB in line with what the older larger drives were offering, and the whole mainframe market shifted to the newer 8 inch drives. This cycle has taken place many times (with 5.25 inch drives coming along and being a perfect fit for desktop computer systems and the widespread launch of personal computing, followed by 3.5 inch drives and the advent of easily transportable laptops, followed by 1.8 inch drives for heart rate monitors that moved into more mobile computing platforms, and new to multi-GB flash drives in cell phones and tablets), and each time, the new tech is of no use originally to the incumbent, but is a perfect fit for the developing niche, and in time, the new tech is also capable of meeting the needs of the older/larger/broader user base and so the broad user base shifts to the new tech.

We are in a similar shift in the DJing world. Routines that to someone from the previous era may seem lifeless, seem vibrant to the upcoming and spreading niche market. Tools that seem standard and necessary for the broader base seem archaic and uninspiring to the new practitioners.

So Fly utilized a skillset that doesn't appeal yet to the broader mass of classic DMC routines, but his classic DMC skillset is comparable and on par with that of many of practitioners of the older and more "accepted/revered" style, but because of his use of new tools and technologies, he is being written off as a gimmick, when the reality is that his set and others like it are just pushing a disruptive technology in a market struggling to hold on to sustaining techniques. Vekked and Chris Karns (Vajra) are more accepted by older fans/traditionalists due to their track selection, but make no mistake, their skillset (and Shiftee's, and A-Trak's, and Craze's, et al) now incorporates the same techniques used by Fly and Izoh, on top of what they did in the earlier era using the older technologies.

You'll either like the routines or you won't, most likely due to the track selection, but the simple reality is that Traktor (not Traktor Scratch, but the earlier midi-controller based system), Final Scratch (which used the original Traktor software as the base, with DVS control added, and no midi-control capabilities), Serato Scratch Live, and all of the others that came after are disruptive technologies that were able to function in the older marketplace, but their greater growth niche has been with the new users who pushed the systems in ways the designers didn't even consider, and those older established people who aggressively pursued the new direction that these tools afforded, and now that growth niche has become the mainstream; the traditionalist has gone the way of mainframe computer hard discs, they've become the small niche rather than the mainstream.

thanks fam, best part of that Nashville battle was getting to politic with djs like yourself, Don, Aquaria, Jeff C whom I hadn't seen get down before as well as the old homies I haven't seen in years like Sam, As One & Precision.

That was a cool routine. I've been thinking about the same thing. Disconnnecting the laptop 1/2 way through a set and rocking straight vinyl.

Hey Guyz,
I've been kinda late in checkin out the DMC battles and I must say... I really hated the fact of all the pre produced stuff a couple a years ago, but now after slowly getting into music production and analysing it for a couple of years it has most definitely earned my respect. I do agree that guys like Fly should at least put out their produced battle breaks for it will elevate the art even further like phatbob said or even do some video's on how they produced it. I actually tried a google search for adj fly battle break but no success and it actually had me ending up on this forum.

Personally I'm all for progression it will finally make the best of the best come out on top again so then finally all these half ass wanna B USB dj's and 3 chord preset apergio producers will get out of the game using 20th century technologie to just blend mix record A to B with a sync button or create music on a macbook and claim to be Mozart or Beethoven. as long as its musical and takes real skill and timing like a turntablist or for that matter any true musician needs to show? I'm all for it. I'dd luv to B able to B the next blend of arab music, jeremy ellis, Wibi Soerjadi and q-bert and Dstyles all in one hahahah. unfortunately a day only has 24 hours and I'm not a teenager anymore : (

I hate to be a so called hater, but it seems so true about the fakery thing! with fly, i picked up on it straight away, apologies if i m wrong but to the eye of fellow turntablist it looks, as they say, Fake.. or as if there is a key lock on? It kills the mood. its like a real life glitch or like watching a movie with really bad special effects.

like this dude too

Watchwww.youtube.com

bit overkill maybe but very noticeable.

real scratching, real turntable juggling, real sound manipulation, really not so big on visuals when your trying to grasp that mood as a good thing only to realize its pre-recorded.

if it is fake, he shouldnt have won. People have been practicing years and years, some 10-20 plus and others out there battling in clubs only to see a pre recording win......... very unfair my friends, very unfair

Ill be Truely Truely honest, Guys going on about tech advancement ( its the best thing since sliced bread For Artists) In a comp tho,, really all i ever found my self wanting and still do Only use Is Effects (delay/reverb) a fill (instead of switching record off for wind down) And that quick quick change with digital que points instead of good old dirty stickers!

anything else i use for production.. (the core of turntable music is Noise/sound/music... the "art" is that it is an instrument, and the comp makes it a Musical sport!! There should be a line between the sport /game and the art, serious, you believe you get points in an art project, nah bro... its a sport/game, which leads to an art, and that art is a form of music (which despite going on about for years Still does not have full recognition)( plz Music accepted in society is all bangs/twangs and scratches which over THOUSANDS of years has been accepted as Music)

lol.. and non of it was "fake"

deceiving the eye wins Zero points from this guy, sorry.

agree with some of this, Vajra (karns) is a master in my eyes, his break vocab is HUGE!! and he has top notch speed, he also gives off a very happy vibe and always has since i can remember. trying his routines are challenging and fun.

Dont agree with you on Merg tho, i have days like him, and im pretty sure every track he did he had already played at other comps, so it was not really only for dmc tbh
he gives of a totally different vibe again, but still good to listen too.

nobody has ruined anything really, just seems people are concerned with fake tricks tbh.

unkut has a similar style to fly, but imo he does it a touch better than fly.

Just not really feeling that many new cats or there routines, but.... Just saw I-Dee's online win, that shit was dope for sure, well crafted using new, more contemporary shit, and utilizing the technology. But if you can't tell the difference from overproduced sets from well crafted ones, I can't really say much. His had clear division with that turntablist only remix quality. No fakery. But, the kings will always remain on top.....I got to peep some raw footage of a new routine Craze is gonna drop, and merely for the purpose of showing everybody who's the best, mind you. No money, no native instruments, no Tony Prince, just two middle fingers to everybody. The shit is bananas! Just gotta wait for it.

Comparing Craze to newer contestants is unfair. Dude was competing in the DMCs since mid-90's, that's practically 20 years deep. He was there when turntablism took off, all the way from transformers and strobing to 3-click flares and stopped platters and ish. The newer cats would never develop their skills in today's level without the influence of Craze. Everybody always talks about Q-bert and the ISP, but seriously the battle scene reached an entire new level because of Craze and only.

That's debatable.

Very debatable. The Rocksteady DJ's took it to another level in 92 then as The Dream Team the year after. Craze's 3 wins were awesome but he was basically just a cut above anyone else in the comp (Dexta was a close call one year though). He was just a whole lot tighter and cleaner than anyone else but I don't think it shifted dramatically away from what was already being done. Craze is definitely one of the finest all round DJ's in the world though.

Guys,

Craze was the first champ using both hands, doing jungle & DnB after all the hiphop frenzy, combining mad skills on the fader with body tricks (not just 1 of the 2), won the most titles out of any other DJ out there and all the above in an early age. Those are enough on their own to put him on the top of the battle scene.

This is the tricky part, I am not talking about turntablism as a whole, but battle scene alone. I mean, just look at the dude's titles at age 23, its absolutely ridiculous:

World ITF Scratch Off Champion 1998
World DMC Champion 1998, 1999, 2000
USA DMC Champion 1998
ITF Western Hemisphere Scratch Off Champion 1998
Winter Music Conference Scratch Off Champion 1996, 1997, 1998 and 1999
East Coast DMC Champion 1997
East Coast Rap Sheet Champion 1996
Zulu National Champion 1995, 1996
World DMC Team Champion 2000, 2001

Nobody is denying Craze ain't super dope but there were people before him juggling, using body tricks etc. He just incorporated it all into a super clean and badass routine. I wouldn't say the Craze took it to a whole new level than what the ISP's did though, like I said, he refined all the components into one. Just my opinion though.

What does that mean?

I think he's referring to the fact that Craze is ambidextrous and can use either hand on the fader for scratch routines..most battle djs are much better at scratching on one side or the other.

So he was the FIRST?

I do get the whole thing about DJ's having a preferred side, but the FIRST?

We're getting real specific with this because he's probably talking about so called "Fader Tricks" and such, but you have to take into account that the Fader has developed over time.

The first Battle DJ's had horrible faders to deal with, but by no means shouldn't be considered Non-Ambidextrous....

JMO.

Yes, DJ Craze was the FIRST champion utilizing both hands on the crossfader. His skills are still insane on both sides, almost equally (if I'm not mistaken the left TT is his good side). Of course other DJs probably tried that before him, but I don't know anybody before Craze who could do that and still win a DMC title.

BTW, he was already good on both sides with just the Technics DMC mixer.

So what was Cash Money doing in 1988?

Watchwww.youtube.com

You are comparing Cash Money to Craze? Seriously? No disrespect to Cash Money at all, but in the 80s DJs didn't even had a good side yet, lol!

Also, you simply cannot put transformers in the same difficulty level as flares.

A flare is not much more difficult than a Transform.

What you said was -

You didn't say anything about him being the FIRST champion to utilizing both hands on the crossfader for "FLARING".

Which is again, a particular and specific aspect of DJ'ing.

Not to get into a back and forth with you, but you're not even taking into consideration the fact that Faders have EVOLVED over time, just like they're making needles MADE for DJ'ing, skippless records, a sync button, key lock, DVS, and a bunch of other things that make DJ'ing "Easier" compared to years ago.

I believe that you guys are turntablists, so explaining flares over transformers or the history of scratch technology shouldn't be a topic I guess. Nevertheless,

- Transformers are nowhere close to difficulty compared to flares. If you can perform both, you can identify the differences. It is no surprise that any average club DJ can somehow perform a basic transformer, but absolutely no flare or any other of the "advanced" scratches.

- Fader technology has indeed evolved and helped tremendously scratching. First it was Technics, then Vestax, then Rane. But this evolution happened within a 20 year span. More specific, Craze won titles with the Technics mixer, not on a TTM 57. Sure, Cash Money or Jazzy Jeff had to learn their shit on the Gemini mixers. The same goes for ISP until the first 05 came out.

But seriously, DJ Craze is also old in the battle scene, dude competed almost 20 years ago. And again, he won titles on the Technics mixer. If you have ever used one, you can understand how "old-school" that mixer was.

DJJOHNNYM_vSL3, indeed my mistake was that I did not specifically mentioned Craze as the first ambidextrous champion on an expert level. But this still doesn't take away his achievements on the battle scene, which makes him the GOAT. At least for me.

Anyhow, I feel like apologizing if I caused any heat with my previous comments. My intention is to keep this discussion turntablist focused and only. No pun intended :-)

Man, no apologies needed, I just wanted to bring to the forefront that DJ'ing and "Turntablism" keeps evolving.

Wouldn't you say that Cash Money an "Expert" Turntablist "for his time", and that with the equipment he had available, that he was the best of the best, just as Craze was the best for "his time"?

A lot of "Newer" cats start their DJ history with "Qbert" and work their way forward (or backwards). Having been on the same types of sets that Cash, Jeff and Flash were on, where there were NO buttery faders, skipless records, DVS, made for DJ needles and such, there is a harder level of stability that you have to maintain compared to now, and that was just to do basic stuff.

Now you have instructional videos which break everything down, and tools and elements that HELP the dj stay on point, so it's expected that their performances and displays of level of skill should increase as well.

Simple example - The Technics mixer ITSELF was leap years ahead of the Gemini, correct?

That was a mixer that was BUILT for battling, no?

Loose fader, EQ adjustments, etc..etc.

A DJ SHOULD be able to perform tricks at a higher level on that mixer then.

Not taking anything away from Craze, but Cash and Jeff? For what they were on?

Man listen....lol.

And yes I own one...lol.

But I own an even OLDER one...

Watchwww.youtube.com

You gotta judge a DJ in what he done at that specific point in time. Discounting Cash Money is wrong. When Craze came out, scratch patterns had become more intricate and the whole scene had evolved. I mean, I could knock Muhamed Ali out now, in his prime?, it would be a lot closer lol

lulz

I concur.

^Maybye, say 5 rounds?

I fully agree with the above. But I have a feeling that you are including Craze in the same category as the "dubplate" dudes (past 2003 era). Though Craze belongs in the same era as Noize, Raida etc.

Anyhow, that Radioshack mixer is nuts, lol! And you're rocking both mk2s on the left side? Now that's OLD school.

I never really thought about where to place Craze "era" wise, I just know he's the one of the best of HIS era, but again, with his era came extra bells and whistles that have to be factored into play.

How many DJ's do you know today who can KILL IT on the same equipment Cash Money was using?

A Gemini Mixer, with Stanton 500's, and real vinyl?

Good Debate though, props to you.

"How many DJ's do you know today who can KILL IT on the same equipment Cash Money was using?"

Wouldn't that require having said equipment to practice on?

Good luck with that lol

nm

Still reppin' (stuck in) the old school......

Craze is "one of the best of his era"??? I don't think it's debatable that he's the greatest of all time battle DJ. Give him any equipment. And the implication that his era is over or that the new cats are surpassing him is ridiculous. Dude just puts out ill routines to show dudes who is still the king all the time. Just wait, he's dropping that new routine soon and it's gonna make everybody wanna quit again.

Plus, I don't think guys in his era had even discovered the use of stickers to set their cue points. They were using headphones or needle dropping.

Hm, good debate indeed. There's this video showing him on the first Technics mixer, i.e. very close to the old school era (circa 1994):

Watchwww.youtube.com

I also think around that time only Stanton 500s were available. Nevertheless, that set was nothing special for Craze's level, but still it seems that he was able to perform on very basic equipment.

Not too much longer after that, I can proudly say I first introduced Craze to the Vestax 05 Pro. We were having a practice session with DJ Shotgun here in Atlanta and I brought it over. At that time, neither one of them could flare but were trying to learn it. I really don't remember but I think the 05Pro was just a marginal increase over those Technics mixers.

Yep, no stickers actually ON the vinyl, but markers could be seen on the labels.

And there you go, the "Old School" era, (for a LOT of us), was at LEAST 10 years prior starting with Grandmaster Flash, DJ Cheese, Grandmaster Flash, DST, then the Jazzy Jeff / Cash Money era, DJ Scratch Era, etc..etc...

Now that's some trivia! Props Gaffle!