Serato Software Feature Suggestions

What features would you like to see in Serato software?

Metronome

smagdali 2:36 AM - 16 May, 2013
This is so simple I can't quite believe it doesn't exist.

Beatgrid matching would be even better if DJ had an toggle for a metronome-like bleep/blip (in the headphones only) generated on Serato's timed beat to match against the track audio, in addition to the visual... the ears are more sensitive than the eyes when matching music...

Isn't this, after all, how we learned to beatmatch in the first place?

:)

Stef
Bozo 3:08 AM - 16 May, 2013
+1

serato.com

and I hope that will come with the MIDI Clock and MIDI Out
MPH 7:42 PM - 16 May, 2013
seriously, this is like one of the most important features serato dj is lacking in... incredibly important for speedy grid adjusting and slipping on the fly... when I have music blaring outside of headphones, I really need a nice firm easy to hear click to align and make sure what I am cueing is on beat... visual waveforms are nice and realistically just listening to the track against one another works too but I would like to not always rely on that... Would speed up my workflow considerably
phatbob 2:18 AM - 17 May, 2013
Quote:
realistically just listening to the track against one another works too


Indeed it does. We call that 'mixing'.
MPH 2:20 AM - 17 May, 2013
Quote:
Quote:
realistically just listening to the track against one another works too


Indeed it does. We call that 'mixing'.


Phatbob I've had it to here with your rude comments and replies... Of course it works, but it doesn't mean that having a simple click wouldn't help speed up the workflow, it's possible, were going digital, so why not have the ability, doesn't mean you have to use it...
phatbob 2:39 AM - 17 May, 2013
Learning to mix would probably speed up the workflow more.
MPH 2:42 AM - 17 May, 2013
Quote:
Learning to mix would probably speed up the workflow more.

Yeah and I already do that as a full time job, so stop being such a pest on these forums and leave people alone, keep your know-it-all condescending attitude to yourself...
phatbob 8:38 AM - 17 May, 2013
You're using Serato DJ, but all your feature requests are ways to make it more like Ableton Live. This begs the question, why don't you just use Ableton?
smagdali 9:21 AM - 17 May, 2013
This is my first ever feature request, Phatbob. I must say I really appreciate your warm and gracious welcome to the forums.
phatbob 9:29 AM - 17 May, 2013
Quote:
This is my first ever feature request, Phatbob. I must say I really appreciate your warm and gracious welcome to the forums.


I wasn't talking to you.
smagdali 11:02 AM - 17 May, 2013
so in your quest to be the world's biggest asshat, it doesn't matter how many innocent bystanders get hit by the shitnel? good luck on your noble quest, sir!
Pete Input 1:40 PM - 17 May, 2013
Metronome doesn't help you, if the tracks are drifting. Use offline player, beatgrids and your eyes.
Mark Quest 2:48 PM - 17 May, 2013
Quote:
Learning to mix would probably speed up the workflow more.


+1

how did you think we did it before any mixer or turntable had BPM detection? If we needed to know our BPMs it was done manually by counting the beats whilst keeping time, usually for 10 or 15 seconds, then multiplied.
Unless you plan on using this software & your controller every time you mix for the rest of your life, i'd suggest learning how to beatmatch by ear and not have to rely on any machine or function within a program.
Dont help make Serato DJ the No.1 software for self-entitled noobs who are too busy with a full-time job (:D) to learn the most fundamental skill in DJing.
Also, wouldn't setting it up, activating it, then adjusting tempo & turnnig it off be counter-intuitive to listening by ear and adjusting the pitchfader manually? & how do you propose we activate this much-needed metronome?
MPH 5:24 PM - 17 May, 2013
Quote:
Quote:
Learning to mix would probably speed up the workflow more.


+1

how did you think we did it before any mixer or turntable had BPM detection? If we needed to know our BPMs it was done manually by counting the beats whilst keeping time, usually for 10 or 15 seconds, then multiplied.
Unless you plan on using this software & your controller every time you mix for the rest of your life, i'd suggest learning how to beatmatch by ear and not have to rely on any machine or function within a program.
Dont help make Serato DJ the No.1 software for self-entitled noobs who are too busy with a full-time job (:D) to learn the most fundamental skill in DJing.
Also, wouldn't setting it up, activating it, then adjusting tempo & turnnig it off be counter-intuitive to listening by ear and adjusting the pitchfader manually? & how do you propose we activate this much-needed metronome?


I've noticed that the best dj's I have ever met are also the most humble, just keep that in mind. "Self-entitled noobs"? C'mon this is one of the weirdest things I have found on these forums, supposedly experienced dj's actually holding something against new people who are actually interested in what they do, like they are threatened or over egotistical. And for the record, I do mix professionally as a full-time job, and I don't use a metronome, I just see the potential benefits of it. Phatbob was right in one thing, I do (did) use ableton (he didn't magically guess this like he might have made it sound, I mentioned it on an earlier post that I replied to and he commented, nonetheless I don't really care at all what that guy thinks because he is incredibly rude)... Used ableton quite successfully i might add, and I would use the click, sometimes, in certain situations and it was helpful... Why I use serato over ableton, two words: "library management" as a dj'ing program ableton is full of potential, but absolutely terrible with library, I was being suffocated by these large gigs and I realized how much precious time I took up, pulling tracks the way I had to do it in there, using the mouse to drag and drop each one, sucks.
So how I would implement the library feature: a simple button you could turn on and off... It would align with the grid so you could make quick adjustments... By default it would be in 4/4 but could be adjustable through preferences...
MPH 5:26 PM - 17 May, 2013
Meant to say: how I would implement the metronome feature*
phatbob 6:19 PM - 17 May, 2013
If all these Ableton-esque features are SO important to you, why did you buy into the Serato ecosystem? Traktor is much closer to what you what. It has literally every feature you've requested. That should have been obvious from even the most rudimentary research.

Yet you still bought Serato... In the hope that it will morph into Traktor one day, or something?
MPH 6:16 PM - 19 May, 2013
Quote:
If all these Ableton-esque features are SO important to you, why did you buy into the Serato ecosystem? Traktor is much closer to what you what. It has literally every feature you've requested. That should have been obvious from even the most rudimentary research.

Yet you still bought Serato... In the hope that it will morph into Traktor one day, or something?


I'm surprised you can't guess this yourself lol.... There are features of course in serato that in my opinion are superior to traktor, one being the ease of use in the library.... I actually bought an S4 this last week (I will probably be creating a post about this in the forum somewhere soon) and I tried it out on traktor, and probably much to your surprise, I was very displeased compared to the ddj-sx on serato.... Even though there are a lot of features in traktor something about it doesn't flow as smoothly when I'm mixing live and many of the features that are possible in traktor, not possible in serato, I would hardly use live (as much as I would like to think I would, live performance just somehow wouldn't attract me to these features as much, probably because there is greater room for major error besides the point it would take me much longer than a week to become more comfortable with using these features).... Now, this doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see some new features added, but I am cooling off a bit on the subject.... I still very much wish for key change ability above anything because in my style of mixing I very much like to mix harmonically and not be restricted to finding harmonically matching songs, and when I finally bring out the second mixed song I like to bend up or down to its native pitch at the drop or break... It is a technique I very much liked to use in ableton, but I'm doing fine without it so far... And yes, it's official after testing both out together for a week, S4 sucks compared to ddj-sx (despite its loop control endless encoders, those I do sort of like)
Mark Quest 7:51 PM - 19 May, 2013
did it ever occur to you to buy a metronome? the ones with the little rod ticking going back & forth?
If Serato DID implement the feature, how long will that take? V1.3? V1.4? more like V3.0 & that's being optimistic.

You obviously have money, so that isn't an issue.

Or is that too simple for you SEN?
Bozo 8:35 PM - 19 May, 2013
@Mark Quest :
a metronome is not synchronized with Serato and not audible out of the bedroom...

it looks like you're completely against the metronome ... I wonder why.

Quote:
Dont help make Serato DJ the No.1 software for self-entitled noobs who are too busy with a full-time job (:D) to learn the most fundamental skill in DJing.
Also, wouldn't setting it up, activating it, then adjusting tempo & turnnig it off be counter-intuitive to listening by ear and adjusting the pitchfader manually? & how do you propose we activate this much-needed metronome?

I regularly use (outside my bedroom ...) a Maschine with Serato DJ or Traktor, I know how to beatmatch but a metronome in my case would be useful.
How they would add it ? an option on the menu... a small icon on each deck... or more interesting (imo) a MidiClock with MIDI Out and a metronome tik-tak which would have the same sync system as deck or samples...
I understand the "Traktor is not Serato" or "Let's keep Serato simple and smart" arguments, but please, not the "those are not real old school dj features"...

(phatbob : for or against?)
Mark Quest 9:18 PM - 19 May, 2013
Quote:
@Mark Quest :
a metronome is not synchronized with Serato and not audible out of the bedroom...

it looks like you're completely against the metronome ... I wonder why.

Quote:
Dont help make Serato DJ the No.1 software for self-entitled noobs who are too busy with a full-time job (:D) to learn the most fundamental skill in DJing.
Also, wouldn't setting it up, activating it, then adjusting tempo & turnnig it off be counter-intuitive to listening by ear and adjusting the pitchfader manually? & how do you propose we activate this much-needed metronome?

I regularly use (outside my bedroom ...) a Maschine with Serato DJ or Traktor, I know how to beatmatch but a metronome in my case would be useful.
How they would add it ? an option on the menu... a small icon on each deck... or more interesting (imo) a MidiClock with MIDI Out and a metronome tik-tak which would have the same sync system as deck or samples...
I understand the "Traktor is not Serato" or "Let's keep Serato simple and smart" arguments, but please, not the "those are not real old school dj features"...

(phatbob : for or against?)


whoah, way to include yourself in a discussion that didn't involve you up til this point. I was referring to MPH in my comments - not you, 'Bozo'. Who the fuck are you? Never heard or seen you before this. Why are so butthurt about the bedroom comment? hmmm.. In any case,well done - you got the attention you were looking for.

I never said anything about "not a real old school feature". That is you making assumptions & missing the subtext of the point I was making. But considering your name is Bozo, I take it you're either a clown or suffer from a frontal lobe injury :D
I merely offered a manual solution that will have him lining up his beatgrids quicker than Serato can release a metronome (snigger) in Serato. You shouldn't be playing tracks in public without first analyzing them & making sure the beatgrids are correct. This is probably the single-most reason for my disdain against the metronome & his reasoning for wanting one. If he was so proficient in Ableton, he would've realised that before DJing with ANY track on Ableton you need to Quantize the song before hand & ensure that the BPM is true. Yet his reason for the metronome is to adjust beatgrids on the fly while I perform. He counters his own argument!
I still stand by my comments about not making Serato DJ the No.1 DJing software for noobs who are to lazy to do it either manually, work it out for themselves or come up with a creative way to workaround limitations.

Did you ever think about having a properly quantised & manually BPM-verified 4/4 loop saved as a sample? then you can put it on continuos replay & listen through your headphones to align the grids? i mean, seeing as you can adjust pitch samples in the SP-6??
phatbob 9:19 PM - 19 May, 2013
See, we're kind of talking about a few different things here.

A metronome in the offline player to assist in setting grids: I'm totally for this.

A master clock, instead of syncing to a master deck, with associated midi clock out; awesome.

But a metronome just to assist with matching beats when playing live? Pointless. We already have beatgrids and smart sync on top of the waveforms and, y'know, the music itself. I can't even comprehend how anyone would need more than all that.
Mark Quest 9:30 PM - 19 May, 2013
Quote:
See, we're kind of talking about a few different things here.

A metronome in the offline player to assist in setting grids: I'm totally for this.



that's where I got confused. He said he wanted it to adjust the grids on the fly, which I took as him playing live in front of a crowd & using it for beat matching aswell. Maybe got confused with setting beatgrid transients & adjusting a track so it lines up with the lines of the master (playing) track? :/

But having a metronome to help analyze the song exclusively in offline mode? Fucking hells to the yeah!
Sterling idea & one that everyone who uses Live would be extremely comfortable using if they've ever DJed with Live.
Bozo 9:40 PM - 19 May, 2013
@Mark Quest :
the "bedroom" was to say that it is a "professional-use" set-up, I have not read or understood the whole thread and since English is not my first language I'm not often on this forum, much less to pick fights with Western people... and I don't give a fuck about attention
Quote:
'Bozo'. Who the fuck are you?

A clown dj who suffer from lobe injury (facerolling on pad) and a Serato custumer

Quote:
Did you ever think about having a properly quantised & manually BPM-verified 4/4 loop saved as a sample? then you can put it on continuos replay & listen through your headphones to align the grids? i mean, seeing as you can adjust pitch samples in the SP-6??

This is what i was doing on itch, but since there is no dedicated routing anymore on SDJ sample's and this solution depends on deck.
Bozo 10:04 PM - 19 May, 2013
PS :
Quote:
You shouldn't be playing tracks in public without first analyzing them & making sure the beatgrids are correct.

my grids are always done
Quote:
That is you making assumptions & missing the subtext of the point I was making.

This is how i read it, I interfered on a conversation that does not concern me and I just understand there is two vision of metronome (mine is basically a Midi Clock), but still don't understand the second one.
MPH 2:13 AM - 20 May, 2013
Quote:
Quote:
@Mark Quest :
a metronome is not synchronized with Serato and not audible out of the bedroom...

it looks like you're completely against the metronome ... I wonder why.

Quote:
Dont help make Serato DJ the No.1 software for self-entitled noobs who are too busy with a full-time job (:D) to learn the most fundamental skill in DJing.
Also, wouldn't setting it up, activating it, then adjusting tempo & turnnig it off be counter-intuitive to listening by ear and adjusting the pitchfader manually? & how do you propose we activate this much-needed metronome?

I regularly use (outside my bedroom ...) a Maschine with Serato DJ or Traktor, I know how to beatmatch but a metronome in my case would be useful.
How they would add it ? an option on the menu... a small icon on each deck... or more interesting (imo) a MidiClock with MIDI Out and a metronome tik-tak which would have the same sync system as deck or samples...
I understand the "Traktor is not Serato" or "Let's keep Serato simple and smart" arguments, but please, not the "those are not real old school dj features"...

(phatbob : for or against?)


whoah, way to include yourself in a discussion that didn't involve you up til this point. I was referring to MPH in my comments - not you, 'Bozo'. Who the fuck are you? Never heard or seen you before this. Why are so butthurt about the bedroom comment? hmmm.. In any case,well done - you got the attention you were looking for.

I never said anything about "not a real old school feature". That is you making assumptions & missing the subtext of the point I was making. But considering your name is Bozo, I take it you're either a clown or suffer from a frontal lobe injury :D
I merely offered a manual solution that will have him lining up his beatgrids quicker than Serato can release a metronome (snigger) in Serato. You shouldn't be playing tracks in public without first analyzing them & making sure the beatgrids are correct. This is probably the single-most reason for my disdain against the metronome & his reasoning for wanting one. If he was so proficient in Ableton, he would've realised that before DJing with ANY track on Ableton you need to Quantize the song before hand & ensure that the BPM is true. Yet his reason for the metronome is to adjust beatgrids on the fly while I perform. He counters his own argument!
I still stand by my comments about not making Serato DJ the No.1 DJing software for noobs who are to lazy to do it either manually, work it out for themselves or come up with a creative way to workaround limitations.

Did you ever think about having a properly quantised & manually BPM-verified 4/4 loop saved as a sample? then you can put it on continuos replay & listen through your headphones to align the grids? i mean, seeing as you can adjust pitch samples in the SP-6??



Well I would analyze (warp) many tracks beforehand on ableton... but occasionally I would come across something live that was not analyzed and would have to do it on the fly... but actually... with ableton, I couldn't use the metronome the same way because that was almost all visual, and then I could hear the metronome with it and adjust it manually... it was, in all senses of the word, a pain in the neck, and serato offers a very strong advantage in this area... however, again, I feel an implemented metronome would still be a nice feature that could be useful...
MPH 2:25 AM - 20 May, 2013
Quote:
See, we're kind of talking about a few different things here.

A metronome in the offline player to assist in setting grids: I'm totally for this.

A master clock, instead of syncing to a master deck, with associated midi clock out; awesome.

But a metronome just to assist with matching beats when playing live? Pointless. We already have beatgrids and smart sync on top of the waveforms and, y'know, the music itself. I can't even comprehend how anyone would need more than all that.


the one thing I can say against this is fine tuned adjustments... a nice metronome click can provide a great reference when something is compressed down to a point where you can't make out the downbeat or kick visually... also sometimes, it's also not as comprehendible aurally as well... (sections where kick is muted, or other areas of the music where its highly syncopated, bla bla, you know... just a nice little clear click assist (call it that even if you want) would be nice in certain situations
phatbob 6:36 AM - 20 May, 2013
With beatgrids set correctly in advance, there is NEVER a time...

Quote:
where you can't make out the downbeat or kick visually...


That's my point. When we have all these tools to do that job already, why would it be useful to have Serato spend development time on yet another one?
MPH 7:09 AM - 20 May, 2013
Quote:
With beatgrids set correctly in advance, there is NEVER a time...

Quote:
where you can't make out the downbeat or kick visually...


That's my point. When we have all these tools to do that job already, why would it be useful to have Serato spend development time on yet another one?


for certain types of professional events I DJ, I get requests for songs, songs I have not had time to beatmatch ahead of time... for the club gigs I do, of course I use tracks in my crates that have been prepared, but for many other corporate events and weddings I do, I will get requests for songs I have not had the time to analyze, so I have to do it on the fly... I'm not saying the metronome issue is really a big deal at all, but I do think it would be useful... anyways, I really don't think it would take serato that long to develop this, it's a pretty basic type of feature I think...
MPH 7:10 AM - 20 May, 2013
when I said beatmatch, I meant "set the beatgrid", sorry
smagdali 11:59 PM - 28 May, 2013
As the OP, I feel like I should clarify:

Yes, I mean a metronome for use when setting beatgrids. Nothing else.

Personally, my use would mainly be in offline mode ( I do a lot of beatgrid-setting work on planes, etc), although I do occasionally have to set the beatgrid on a track whilst actually playing. Upon reflection, offline mode only would be fine.

@MPH: "So how I would implement the library feature: a simple button you could turn on and off... It would align with the grid so you could make quick adjustments... By default it would be in 4/4 but could be adjustable through preferences..."

exactly like that, is how I imagined it.

stef
BenFunktion 2:08 AM - 3 July, 2013
i agree but from a different perspective

im using serato to dj alongside a live band

i wish for a metronome to be sent to the drummer for failsafe sync between loops and backing tracks..
XRM5 2:41 AM - 10 July, 2013
Sending a click (metronome) to instrumentalists you're playing with can be essential sometimes.

It would also be useful for practicing.

This would also be an incredibly simple thing for them to put together.

If they ever added it, hopefully you could toggle between a couple samples, or swap them yourself like in Live. Regular old beeps can drill a hole in your ear after a minute, so a closed hat, sticks, & claps would make it a lot more useful.
Menace 10:59 PM - 31 August, 2013
+1 for Metronome
d33z 3:06 AM - 2 April, 2014
create a click track in audacity or something
but i do agree... very simple addon
DJ-XmanEvE2005 10:21 PM - 2 April, 2014
i made a post for this a couple of weeks back and i'm happy to say i did not get any of this rude abuse i have seen on this post.

one person may feel a need for an add on where others may not.
it all comes down to your needs.
I asked for the metronome for a simple way to beat grid accapella's its that simple.
as a mix dj of over 15 yrs i can beat match in my sleep and have done so on many formats.
i can also beatmatch an accapella on the fly to.

BUT!

serato dj has features and options which "cant be used without beat grids"
all we are asking for is in my view a natural way to beatgrid things the way we are used to.
IE by ear.

now if this makes us failed dj's in your mind then i wonder what your problem is.
to me its simply a way to use the skills we have all learned over many years of working and doing what we love.

we have ears and tbh unless all you music taste has nice simple 4/4 beats a metronome would come in very handy for a way of checking the speed of the track "for beat grid setting"

so to close i say to you.

we bought serato as a professional item which in my view it delivers as it has always done from my old sl1 days.
scratch live compaired to serato dj are worlds apart and such should be treated as.
no one is going to tell me im not meant to use the software to the max of its features because some DJ snob says its not old school enough and we should all learn to mix!

all features give you really is the option to do things you could not do before due to only having one pair of hands!

if they do this feature great if they feel its a waste of time so be it.

but dont sit there behind your keyboard and shout down people for idea's
that will only make sure serato dj stays the same forever more.

progress comes from ideas.
joachimj 12:45 AM - 3 April, 2014
+1
joachimj 12:47 AM - 3 April, 2014
diana.rozsa 9:45 AM - 20 May, 2014
+1
BenFunktion 2:51 PM - 20 May, 2014
creating a metronome as an audio track in a DAW doesn't actually provide a guaranteed sync.. If beat grids are able to be set to provide accurate sync then why the hell can't the beat grids be used to trigger a simple click track? Come ON SERATO!!! this is a real asset
blackavenger 6:19 PM - 6 June, 2014
Quote:
Quote:
realistically just listening to the track against one another works too


Indeed it does. We call that 'mixing'.

Hahaha.

Quote:
See, we're kind of talking about a few different things here.

A metronome in the offline player to assist in setting grids: I'm totally for this.

A master clock, instead of syncing to a master deck, with associated midi clock out; awesome.

But a metronome just to assist with matching beats when playing live? Pointless. We already have beatgrids and smart sync on top of the waveforms and, y'know, the music itself. I can't even comprehend how anyone would need more than all that.

+1 to all of this.
BenFunktion 6:40 PM - 6 June, 2014
Quote:

Quote:

But a metronome just to assist with matching beats when playing live? Pointless. We already have beatgrids and smart sync on top of the waveforms and, y'know, the music itself. I can't even comprehend how anyone would need more than all that.

+1 to all of this.



I think the point about this is being missd somewhat, which is fair enough, but i for one would find this very handy. Not for mixing two songs together, that would be daft and pointless. But, as a means of interacting Serato with a live band.. I would love to Dj over the top of bands, and as it happens I've found a way to do it with my own in that my drummer and i listen to a click in headphones produced by my iPhone.. I Mix in time to that and he plays to it, therefore the rest of the band can follow him hence allowing us all to play in time.. ta da!! Not that hard to understand.

What would be nice is if Serato could output a click itself just for the drummer (sent out of a separate output obviously) rather than having to faff around with phones and stuff. It would also mean that the set wouldn't be rigid in tempo either which would be a nice touch. But most of all, I could literally start my tune at any speed and he would play along to the click generated by it.. YES he could just get a feed of the track in his cans and play to that but any of you who work with bands will appreciate that in the midst of stage noise and lousy foldback in some venues, most drummers just want to play to a click as it is more audible..

Obviously a midi time code output (or even midi note) triggered by beat grids would also be sufficient of course as i could fire the drummer anything he wanted from a drum machine or anything similar.. again, bit of a faff - so that (in my humble opinion) is why this isn't a completely stupid suggestion.

Here's me in the midst of "faffing" with my band to give you an idea ;-)

Watchwww.youtube.com

Watchwww.youtube.com


x
Leafie 9:17 PM - 7 June, 2014
Good idea, but independent of best grid which has limited use.
stray dog 1:39 AM - 18 September, 2014
Boy o boy there are some DJ's who don't like to see technology advance. I think they forget it does not matter if you are using a walkman or the most advanced music system, it's always about the audience and not the DJ. They will get left. This is a great idea. In face, I came across this suggestion because I was thinking the same thing and I did a search.
d33z 6:18 PM - 20 November, 2014
Quote:
Boy o boy there are some DJ's who don't like to see technology advance. I think they forget it does not matter if you are using a walkman or the most advanced music system, it's always about the audience and not the DJ. They will get left. This is a great idea. In face, I came across this suggestion because I was thinking the same thing and I did a search.


amen.
Leafie 4:27 PM - 29 January, 2015
Surley you want the metronome to be accurate and not follow the beat grid which may be off unless you've spent a lot of time (for tracks with human drummers) fixing up the grid.
smagdali 6:10 PM - 20 May, 2015
@leafie: yes.
dj_estrela 9:56 PM - 7 July, 2016
+1
BenFunktion 8:08 PM - 26 August, 2016
i think the point is that a metronome is needed and would be useful regardless of the options in which it's implemented..

in my case the tracks being played wouldn't have drums on, it would be backing vocals and strings and such, the drummer (a human on stage with me) would be following the click
Cyberluke 1:16 PM - 8 February, 2020
+1

Don't forget DJs learning to scratch would use this feature. There are many business uses, don't be shortsighted to your small bubble of what you do in Serato.

I found two options:
1) download a metronome track and speed it up / slow it down to your bpm
2) use Ableton Link with Serato and use metronome from Ableton. This way I can use triplets n fancy stuff. I can control it in realtime using Ableton Push 2 controller, no need to look at PC.

PS: don't forget triplets in metronome are the way to get out of the boring loop