i really don't understand what people mean by latency? Where is this latency noticed? Is it in the output of audio from the ssl box? If so then even if it was 50ms latency, it still wouldn't even affect your mixing as that's the sound that your mixer is hearing, therefore it's the sound your hearing in your headphones when cueing up and pitching the incoming deck.

sorry if I misunderstood your post
Exactly what latency did you have with TFS?

stu
:-)

the only latency i notice is when needle dropping... when spinning or scratching, SSL performs like real vinyl, no difference at all!

scratching with SSL is dope, believe me.

If you scratch, then the signal will change xx ms later than the movement of the record. If you set the buffer to the lowest setting possible, I cant hardly hear any latency, but using higher settings than about 5ms (+7ms system latency) is noticable. Of course if you only mix, then this wont really affect you as once the beats are beatmatched and the run in sync latency doesnt make any difference.

Shit, sorry for the double post! I only clicked once on the post button. Strange.

what nik39 said. for mixing, latency w/ TFS was not a problem. for anybody thats scratched for more than a year it is definitely noticeable although some argue it isn't. a big reason for this is that after a while you will have adjusted to the reaction time and won't notice anymore.

w/ my audiophile 24/96 and midi keyboard, i can get latency w/ my sequencer down to 12ms which is fine for my needs, mostly triggering drum samples. im sure an experienced keyboard player would want a lower latency though. 50ms on the other hand is huge and you would have to comepensate by making movements earlier.

however, a lower latency is far more important for scratching than keyboard playing. where keyboard playing is triggering one shot samples, scratching gets its sound purely from movement of the record.

That is right, but I dont know what about djs who permanently scratch with vinyl or maybe switch back and forth, that might a problem.

Don't get too hung up on numbers, with the USB buffer at it's lowest setting the latency is completely unnoticable for both complex scratching and mixing. It's infinitely superior to Final Scratch in that respect and if you manage to get a demo I'm sure you'll agree.

Yo Park check out this demo, and see if you notice any latency www.seratoscratchlive.com

i have a buffer of 6 and have been scratching for quite a few years, on a well calibrated/well grounded setup i cant really notice a difference, although i only really use relative mode.

numbers matter... I read somewhere that final scratch has a latency of ~15ms. If i was able to notice the latency w/ 15ms, 7 ms may be noticeable as well. A latency that is twice as fast is hardly infinitely better. The way I see it, if im going to drop a lot of cash, i want the lowest latency attainable w/ this technology. If serato isn't able to improve the 7ms latency any lower due to its hardware or whatever other reason, I may just wait for FS2, which claims to be better, or wait till the alcatech digiscratch's price lowers. The alcatech digiscratch is firewire and can reach a latency of 1.5ms btw

If any yall have heard of djdecks, it only costs $25 and can get a latency as low as 1.5ms as well depending on what soundcard you buy. $25 is cheap but im not sure if I'd be confident spinning out w/... not many ppl use it and im not too sure how stable it is. Ill probably buy it for home/studio use though..

I've seen the serato scratch vids but videos are kinda misleading as far demonstrating latency. Especially click-heavy scratches. w/ final scratch, the latency was hardly noticeable when i would chirp, or do 2-3 click orbits etc. I could do anything in that video w/ final scratch, minus the backspins.

Its much easier to notice latency doing simple babys or faderless scratches. If it aint 2 much trouble, do you think you could record yourself doing some faderless scratches? like tears over a fast beat and then double-time tears over a slower beat..

Are you sure you are not comparing beans and apples? The figures given by djdecks and digiscratch are these the whole system latency? SSL could also advertise with a latency of 1ms where the overall whole system latency is 7ms.

not too sure about djdecks, but w/ digiscratch its the whole system latency. the hardware provided for digiscratch is made by RME, a company known for its high quality sound cards and extremely well written drivers.

hmmm been doing some research. found about another company putting out a software+timecode vinyl package for use w/ any soundcard, mixvibes dvs. according to a post on their forum,

total latency is calculated by,
1) the software record the signal coming from the phono (input latency)
2) the software analyses the signal (process latency)
3) the software send commands : play/reverse/speed (output latency)

with maya 44 Pci :

input : 1.5ms
dvs process : 6ms (average)
output : 1,5ms

total : 9ms

audiotrack usb 44 usb :

input latency is 3 ms
dvs process is 6ms (average)
output latency is 4ms
total 13ms

looks like pci cuts down on latency, maybe firewire does the same. according to the post, on top of the input and ouput latency dependant on hardware and drivers, the software introduces latency as well. so what is serato scratch's process latency? Im guessing 7 ms is the the total input+ouput latency due to usb and the total+software latency ~13ms as well?

No problem nik39. I took care of it :)

Shaun, thx ;)

parke02, ah cool. So now all the figure looke a bit different. Check this post scratchlive.net , 7ms is the minimum, but I dont know if that is the overall complete latency. SSL team?

7ms is the total latency, not a single section of the latency *cough*

really? so what is the input/output latency from the hardware and the process latency from the software?

Absolutely, I just measured it with AJ. What difference does it make how that number is divided? Overall latency is all the matters.

According to screenshots from this Digiscratch review - www.axledentaldj.com

check fig 3.

1.5ms is just the minimum buffer size of the hammerfall card.

It doesnt make a difference how the number is divided. I'm just curious how much latency the hardware introduces vs software. If you guys can get the rane hardware as low as 1.5ms input/ouput, the software only introduces 1ms on top to reach 7ms?

I don't want to be a bastard but I'm having a hard time believing the rane hardware can reach a latency as good as or better than the RME system or pci system. If it really can, post the numbers and explain to me how they are measured. If its true, it shouldnt a big deal doing so and you will have made another customer.

Where is this going?

...and try again to explain why this matters?

Exactly, what is the point? Demo them both and let your ears decide.

this is going nowhere until i get a clear answer from someone. Why does this matter? For scratch use, latency is the most important thing when you're dealing w/ this kind of technology, is it not?
If I was a mix dj I would just pick up the cheapest/most stable package which may very well be djdecks or mixvibes.

I don't have access to demo Serato Scratch or any of the other solutions. If I did I wouldnt be here asking.

parke02 - where are you located?

All I want to know is how latency is measured and where/how rane gets their figure of 7ms total latency. All these different products claim to have low/lower latency than the competition, but the only clear answer i have read is from the mixvibes crew at their forum.

Josh, so buffer size correlates to input and ouput latency correct?
My audiophile 24/96 soundcard can go any lower than 64 samples buffer size or 1.5ms latency, so im guessing that is the minimum for ranes as well. So input/ouput latency of 3.0ms is the absolute minimum achievable based on any hardware, and rest is whatever the software introduces?

park02, www.scratchlive.net this thread tells you about the control signal "latency". About the buffer latencies etc. we need some info from the SSL devs.

Correct, together with USB/FW latency and the cpu buffer size.


Yes, but ASIO has 2 output buffers and 1 input so with your PCI card the best overall latency would be 4.5 ms, for SSL you have to add about 2-3 ms for the USB protocol.

There is also a different kind of latency involved: that is the time it takes for the CPU to 'know' the speed of the record. This entirely depends on the quality of the scratch software. Rane/Serato did a very good job on this IMHO. Don't get to fixated on the audio card latency, other things are as important!

yea, sounds like AJ knows his stuff. hopefully he'll come across this thread

lol im a mix dj and i care about latency hell of a lot.. if you have to mix tunes quickyly or make adjustents using pitch sliding techniques you need to have as little latency as possible.. esp. for tech djs that have tracks 4 min or less and there is no downtime between mixes

just thought id add my $.02, latency is important for both scratch and mix djs..i use my SSL with the lowest usb buffer always! peace

im not saying latency won't matter for a mix dj, just that its more important for a scratch dj. the latency w/ a system like FS is more than satisfactory for mix use although the sound quality of FS is questionable

We measured the overall latency yesterday using Protools HD.

Playing the control signal in ProTools we looped back to get a 2xPT latency figure, then waiting for SSL's output to arrive we can discount the latency of pro tools and are left with how long it took for SSL to read the control signal and output audio back into Pro Tools.

This figure came back at 7ms on our windows laptop. Those with SSL can try this for themselves, but quite frankly going into how this is acheived would be commercial suicide.

Despite what other manufacturers claim, 7ms is an incredibly low overall system latency. What you need to understand is that when companies create their marketing material, they want to make their product look as good as possible, and some companies don't mind being a little misleading.

It is exactly the same when dubious manufacturers who produce cheap speakers often quote the power output in Watts (PMPO). See en.wikipedia.org for a description of the difference between PMPO and RMS (root mean square). But as an example, a 3W rms speaker might be advertised as a 200W PMPO. Which is of course ridiculous for a PC speaker, and the measurement is quite useless.

A reputable manufacturer of a high quality speaker would never quote PMPO values for the power output because it is just wrong. Similarly, our latency figures are the total overall latency from when the control signal enters the SLU to when the sound leaves it. When we say that Scratch LIVE has a 7ms latency, we are talking about total latency.

On the other hand, Final Scratch is quite often quoted as having a 15ms latency, however, as I have just measured, this is just marketing BS. The real latency figures for TFS 1.5 Win are as follows:
Low latency mode: 21ms
Med latency mode: 31ms
High latency mode: 43ms

Which means that TFS in it's lowest latency mode is equivalent to running scratch live with an internal buffer setting of 14. If you set scratch live to buffer size 1, FS can't come anywhere near it.

All I am saying is, don't believe the latency figures quoted in marketing material. I wouldn't be surprised at all if our product is the only product in the entire world that quotes real total system latency.

BAK KAK KA GA GA!!!! (the sound of AJ dunking all up in the competition's face)

hanging on the rim and grabbing his nuts too

lol OMG!!! - very nice stats to silence FS fanboys.

Please everyone let's not turn this into some fanboy slagfest :)

Things are bad enough with Intel vs AMD, ATI vs NVIDIA, Linux vs Max vs Windows etc ;)

BTW It'd be nice if you guys could give detailed explanations of the methodology (inc the hardware used in your tests obviously), that would allow us to verify the results.
Ideally you could publish a more detailed description of your data as well, but it seems like you reluctant to do so (?).

I find the figures very interesting as 7 ms vs 15 ms is quite the difference (any gamer out here will attest to this fact ;). I can imagine that the turntablists waiting to decide which system to purchase are very interested in these figures.

Additionally having a detailed methodology formeasuring latency as well as reference data available publically would be a great diagnostic tool for customers encountering problems with SSL (or simply wanting to improve their latency even further).

Not at all. What gave you that impression? I am very happy to describe the methodology in detail. It should be public knowledge how to measure an important quantity like system latency.

Basically, you need a multitrack audio recording system (I used Pro Tools with and HD interface - 8 ins, 8 outs)

I recorded a sample of final scratch timecode into Pro Tools and placed it on an audio track. I then routed the output of that track to the Scratch Amp input, and used a send to route the same signal out of Pro Tools and loop back into one of the inputs. I record the control signal loopback on a second track as a reference. Then I connect the output of the Scratch Amp to another PT input and record that to a third track.

To do the actual test, I just set Pro Tools recording, with a loud tone loaded into the FS deck being controlled by PT. After pressing stop, I zoom in on the moment that the timecode signal starts and measure the number of samples delay before the scratch amp produced output.

When taking this measurement, it is important to measure the time between the start of the recorded reference signal, not the original playback signal. This completely eliminates the I/O latency of the Pro Tools system and removes it from the equation.

To make it a fair test, I avoid any seeking issues by playing a piece of timecode, followed by a 1 second pause, and then play the very next piece of timecode. This is where I measure the startup latency from. This guarantees that final scratch is already in the correct place when the signal suddenly starts. If final scratch had a relative mode, I could have just used that instead.


Actually, it's 7ms vs 21ms, the smallest latency I could achieve with Final Scratch is 21ms.

thanks for the explanation guys. i'll be picking serato scratch soon

That is an interesting test.

That's exactly what it felt like to me. I only used FS once, on a demo in Brussels. The FS demo guy said the minimum latency was 0.12ms. I said "you probably mean 12ms, 0.12 is impossible". But he was absolutely convinced it was 0.12ms....
Anyway, I tried it for myself and I immediatly said it felt more like a good 20ms. I have some experience with software synths so I know what 20ms feels like. I pointed this out but the FS demo guy stuck to his 0.12ms claim.

IMHO, 21ms is useless for any serious scratching, and feels VERY sluggish even with beat-matching or simple beat dropping. From using softsynths I know that anything under 10-12ms for all intents and purposes feels like no latency.

LOL, LOL, and LOL again ! :))))))))

... And that's a guy who gets PAID by Stanton to demo FS to us...

Salesman at shows almost never know where they are talking about....

Sorry I'm just getting back to the discussion....The reason why I said check the video was not only to show there is no noticeable latency...I was sort of trying to make the statement that if it is good enough for me as a turntablist(and the video was just the tip of the iceburg) then it is good enough for any dj. All I do is scratch, mix and do tricks. As far as I'm concerned I am scratch with traditional records. I don't have a praticularly fast computer 1.2 ghz Compaq, and its just like scratching real records. I don't work for Serato..but since it help save my life..I figured I would shout it from the highest mountain, while I still have some spare time. But I'm starting to get busy...Because of SSL.

Shit...I need to proof read before I post.

Scratching*,helped*,spair*,

You're not the only one... Some people have suggested that we allow editing of posts, but I like seeing what people actually said. And besides, we don't need editing - we have a preview function.

I preview every message before posting it - it looks just like the posted message will look, and you can still edit it! Amazing! I change 80% of the messages I write, after previewing them. There is something about seeing a message up there that makes it easier to see your mistakes.

LK, dont get me wrong, but you are not the standard. There might be tricks which you cant do or dont do, which others might do, and which put SSL to its limit. Again, no offense... :)

No offense taken, That's why I put(tip of the iceburg).There isn't a trick or a scratch that I can't perform. I was doing them before they started naming them.I'm not braggin,but hell if you practice as much as I do, you could perform them as well. I had nothing to gain by making a video,I don't need props, just trying to helpful,because I know how confusing buying new software can be.I was lucky to get buy SSL the first time. I really don't know how to do that without coming off as bragging, or sounding boisterous. I'm just as good if not better than any dj you have heard of(Qbert excluded).That's just a fact.So to tell you the truth I do feel like I'm the standard to be judged by, being doing this turntablist stuff since before the term as coined.

Of course no offense.

:)

little cocky there arent you kaseem? I highly doubt there isn't a "trick" out there you cant perform. Besides that, it ain't about "tricks" when it comes to scratching and scratch music.

Freal, no offense man, but i've seen your vid and you aren't even close to Qberts level. Qbert aint even the best out there anyway. He may know a lot of "tricks" but that doesn't make him the freshest scratcher. Far from it... Check out Dstyles Phantazmagorea album. Way fresher than anything Qbert has ever done.

where did kaseem ever claim to be qbert? i do think kaseem is probably better than the average ssl user on here and imo he was just trying to put some perspective on how good ssl is (stands up to some abuse, etc) compared to the "average" ssl turntablist.

he's nearly as good as me.

actually, kaseem said he wasn't as good as qbert. and anyone that can beat one of the x-men in a battle (no matter what year it happened) has my respect any day of the week. parke02: wheres your golden turntable?

Aww geez, i never said kaseem thinks hes better than qbert, and for the record, i don't think qbert or the x-men are all that great by today's standard. I could care less about battling or a golden turntable as well.

DJ 3pm, would I have your respect as well if I had won a battle against Roc Raida 20 years ago? What does skill 20 years ago have to do w/ the present?

Im just sayin man, Kaseem comes off waaaaaaay cocky in his post. "I'm just as good if not better than any dj you have heard of(Qbert excluded). That's just a fact."
Better than Dstyles, Ricci Rucker, Toadstyles, any of the beat junkies? Cmon man, you've got to do a lot more than what you did in that video to impress me. Twiddles, chirps, doubling up on the beat doesn't cut it.

parke02, I agree to your last paragraph. The backspins could have been much more tighter. :) Still... no offense, the crabs are nice etc. But there is still room to improve.

hold on a second, I thought Paul Oakenfold was the worlds best DJ?

:-P

I thought it was already decided on another thread who the best DJ was?

scratchlive.net

haha, yeah that guy sounds off the chain! pity no one posted his name. ^_^

i smell a video/mp3 battle coming on.... nik39, Dj3pm post a video or mp3... i'd love to hear u guys scratch and double beat on the latest house music

i can see it now..spinning that U2 track....

"its a beautiii- day / day"

thats gangsta

My god, here we go...Those dudes are kids to me...The main reason, I didn't become as "famous" was because I got out of competition circuit,once I considered myself pro with Master Ace Inc. Most of the people in the movie "Scratch, I have practiced with or know..or beaten in previous competitions...I am a student of Djing, as well as a Pioneer.. I have to put someone else that I'm not better, than which is Steve D the original X men.Can't be better than people who made beat jugglin up. The people you have named...I have been in there house or In there town and we practiced. The competition dj's you have heard, know and respect me. I actually had no respect for the XMen because they were one dimensional...and when I beat Rob Swift, their best dj in the crew(Besides SteveD.Their Grandmaster). Again, I need a manager to do the speaking for me, because I know it sounds cocky). I have so many style to choose from. I have nothing to prove to no one in this forum. I'm pretty sure some of you may even want me to go away. Fact of the matter is, I stay in competition form. And there is not a trick you can describe, that I can't do...Hell I got all the video tape just like everyone else. Besides what Qbert brought to the table...(All those backwards scratches..flares..1,2,3 clicks) No one has made any new. Check early 90,91,92 DMC and New Music Seminars...The Blueprints were put out then. Damn I forgot about this one...I have another video if you want to see it..It's a lil grainy..www.crookedstreetz.com and go to the dj section. It's another performance I did(more for crowd pleasing than technical). Trust me when I say that I can do any trick that's been put out there. Some tricks I don't do because..it may be someones signiture move..I try to make up my own stuff. I tell ya what I have learned is that it is way easier to criticize than to create. I probably wouldn't have said anything about it until this guy NIK 39 put in his..."You aint the standard"...Shit, if I aint...You damn sure aint. Some people start with the..."not to offend you but"....How about this...put up a video or shut the fuck up....NOw the battler is coming out. I will match anyone skill for skill,who don't believe in me. I'm pretty sure alot of people in here appreciated the fact that I made a video so they don't make the mistake that others have. I wish people would think more like me and contribute more than just lip service, and abbrasive post. And If anyone doesn't think that Q bert is the Best Dj out there...then I simply don't respect your opinion. I can tell you are young talking about some damn D Styles...They copy Q bert scratch for scratch. Even the way he holds his hand on the record. And a personal challenge goes out to Parke and Nik...We can battle when ever..and I never even seen you Dj. I'll battle for turntables...If I win..I'll brake you tone arms right in front of you.

I'm looking at my post now...I mean every word of it. Didn't want this to turn into a post about me, just trying to help..but hell people force ya hand.

Oh and Paul Okenford If I spelled that right is One of the Richest Dj's...so I guess to some that would make him the best...lol. I'm trying to get money now myself...damn some props...but I will wax you up and coming dudes..go home and get a good night sleep..please believe it.

he said your mother. but really, i'm glad Lord Kaseem took pity on me (and my shitty TT200s) and didn't call me out.

tashafa- i never claimed to be a good (or event decent) scratch dj, nor am i an instigator. in fact, i offered to host videos for other users claiming to be the shit

scratchlive.net

offer still stands suckas

opps sorry i meant parke02... we need some kind of row banding (alternate colors/every other post)

Yeah I was joking about oakenfold... just wanted to lighten the mood a little.

It was worth a try, anyway...

I believe the point was that if a turntablist with valid credentials (if not the fame) and has kept up his skills with what everybody is doing now (which isn't much different than what everybody has been doing for the last several years in turntablism) can do with SSL what he can do with regular vinyl then SSL is a quality product to purchase for a turntable DJ. Obviously mix DJs (depending on what style of music you mix) may or may not have a problem with the pitch drift but we know that's a vinyl problem and is being fixed. CD DJs will have a whole other set of issues. No, SSL isn't perfect (but Rane/Serato is doing a heck of a better job in trying to make sure SSL works for everybody than Microsoft is with Windows or any other MS product, plus the support is free :) )

The man was just trying to give props for SSL from a turntablist/turntable perspective (plus most DJs from the old school can mix too - at least you did in Philly, and of course New York where hip-hop started). I know I can't beat him. I don't believe I've seen a whole lot of complaints about what record movement scratches can't be done with SSL. Maybe someone will invent one but as far as record movement scratches they've been around for a long time and long before they had names (or at least the names they have now). It will probably take new technology just like most of the scratches done now were impossible to do on the older mixers.

A mix DJ probably won't be happy until SSL is so bloated you need a Cray or another supercomputer to run the thing :D

So let's just say props to Rane/Serato for a product that is better than FS (I own one so I can say that) and for working hard to make a product that will satisfy as many DJ's and aspiring DJ's as possible.

Peace, unity, love, and havin' fun - that what it's all about

whoa...it's all good kaseem....

arguing on the internet is like winning in the special olympics....even if you win, you're still.....you get the picture.

LOL...I know,I know still retarded right,but it sounded like a challenge to me. Offer still stands. I'm really competitive. Sorry, some people just don't know what get's to me(challenges) I really take this stuff seriously. I mean like, this is my life man. I'm not going to be a Doctor. I dj..all aspects of this. Hate to get so sensitive. I practice to beat people. It's funny how people can just say something and get you amped. Some people just don't know what to say out of there mouth. I thought I could be some help,because I consider myself(despite what others think)an expert dj. I'm done posting...If anyone needs any pointers holla at me LordKaseem@aol.com...I believe in Karma...people I don't know have given me great advice. Thought I should do the same.

parke02 post a video.
moms could use a free t-shirt!
I:{P
play nice.

Please stick around kaseem...

Wow, this thread blew up. Kaseem, I ain't tryin to battle you. I haven't followed the battle scene in the longest time, I don't juggle, and most importantly, I hardly think a battle determines whose the better scratcher. The battle scene is wack, and I haven't seen a routine that doesnt put me to sleep in a looong time. Don't get me wrong, Im not sayin it doesnt take skill to do what those battle cats do, cus I know it takes an insane amound of practice to perfect a routine like that, but music is a better gauge of talent. Fame don't mean jack either.

I understand your respect for Seve D for creating beatjuggling, but I don't get why that makes him a better DJ. Any of the former Xmen, they broke up btw, would rip Steve D on the cut. Props for battling and winning against Rob swift, but does really mean you're better than him b/c you beat him in a battle years ago?

The fact that you refer to scratches as tricks leads me to think that you're a battle minded DJ, and no battle set can compare to some of the music that comin out these days.

You've never heard of DStyles btw? Dstyles isnt a group, he was in the Invisibl Scratch Piklz along w/ Qbert back in the day. If you haven't heard of him, check out his album Phantazmagorea. An entire album made of scratches... drums, solos, etc. While you're at it, check out Scetchbook by Mike Boo and Ricci Rucker.

What has Qbert done since Wavetwister? That album may be the first scratch album, but its just solo cuts over programmed beats. We all know Qbert can freestyle, but freestyle skill alone doesn't determine whose best. Its ridiculous to call anybody the best period.

btw, what do you think make up a good DJ/Turntablist? Most ppl refer to a turntablist as somebody who not only mixes but juggles and scratches as well. I haven't seen Qbert juggle since the old DMCs. Would you still call him the best turntablist?

LK, just because I criticise you, doesnt mean, that I am better. Hell, thats like saying, no one who aint better can judge or criticize, does that make sense? I mean, that would mean a whole bunch of movie journalists, music journalists couldnt critize any artist cause surely they cant do it better.

If you want to hear it, and if it satisfies you, yes, you are way better then me. I wish my crab techniques would have been as advance as yours. But just because youre better then me, that doesnt mean I cant tell that your backspins are not very tight (just one aspect). And this all was not meant as a diss, but I think you are misled if you think that you are the standard, that was the only reason I posted this. I still appreciate the fact that you recorded a vid to show what is possible with SSL. Because I critize that doesnt mean I am not contributive, objective criticism is way more constructive and contributive than just saying "oh yeah, thats good. youre the best".

Props to Lord Kaseem for posting the video and trying to help others. I think this thing sort of spiralled off into a pointless battle debate. Who cares who you do or do not think is the best DJ. After you get to a certain level, there is not that great of a difference between DJ's anyway. The point here is that a good DJ/Turntablist is praising this product and recommending it based on the fact that it works smoothly for him; and being the type of DJ he is, he has pushed it (in his opinion) to the limits and it still works properly.

You fucking Kids...no respect...Go to Steve D's apt...He lives in Harlem...None of those X men can fuck with Steve D. I actually thought I could take him..until I went to his House...He is a true Grandmaster...As Well As Q Bert. He doesn't reveal everything on a Goddamn Tape. You have no respect for Elders...therefore you are doomed.Hell keep posting, I didn't know how ignorant you were about Djing until you posted. Plus, I know who the fuck D styles is...They came up on the circuit after me. You have to realize during my tour days..every city I went to, I invited the dj's back to my hotel room to practice..I had Dj Swamp at my hotel and killed it. This was before he won the DMC. He told me I was an inspiration to him. The whole Bay style of Djing, which is Stratch heavy is based on MixMasterMike and Q bert and Apollo. I pride myself on being an all around dj..You can never pigeon hole me..But at heart I am a battler. But in a club they don't want to hear tricks..unless I dj for a rapper and the spotlight is on me. They want to hear Cash money millionaires and J Kwon, and Ciara. I can blend those like no ones business. There is a time and place for everything. I also make beats. I don't let my R and B people hear my underground shit. And there is nothing Q bert can't do, trust me.

... egos are funny! ... personally i think its all about having fun and the music sounding good!... I have respect for all the pro tablist that can make tablism sound good... BUT as far as I'm concered I'm my favorite dj =P ... !have fun doing what we enjoy!- tablism! dont argue about trival i$h... cuz really there is no set in stone answer to who is the best - no matter which way you cut it - its all a matter of perspective.

thats said... mad props to Kaseem for the tight video !

and major props to the folks @ serato and rane for doing such a badass job on such amazing technology! keep it up yall!

push the limits and raise the bar for the future!

Exactly...We have to thank our friends, down under, for superior product. I am very enthusiastic about this product. Let me know how I can help promote it to a new crop of digital dj's. I can't wait for the OGG updates as well. No hard feelings to any of the dj's on the board. I also suggest to the newer dj's, you have to go back a lil further than Q bert...Q berts inspirations are they same as mine, Dj Alladin, Cash Money,Jazzy Jeff, Dj Cheese, The late great Dj Train(JJ Fad's and Early N.W.A.)GrandMaster Dee(Whodini), Dj Magic Mike(Orlando Fl). Jam Master Jay(R.I.P), Steve D, Plastic Man,...MixMasterIce(U.T.F.O.), Dj Scratch, Dj MiZ(S.W. Philly) Dj Richie Rich(3rd Bass)....My young Padwa's go and learn and be an astute student of Djing, and stop thinking that someone from last year DMC made something up.

I'm pretty sure I left out a name or two...anybody else got someone to add to that list...

www.crookedstreetz.com

DJ Pat Sharpe

I battled Cheeze once. Way back in the King Kut days. He lived up the block from the rec. center I hung out at. My group almost signed to the same label until someone warned us about Duke Bootee and his shifty ways. Oh yeah, he smoked me btw...:)

This thread supposed to be about the serato scratch latency ;-)

As someone who doesn't scratch, doesn't play (or listen to) hiphop, and has no idea who 99% of the people mentioned are, I'm staying right out of this one ;-)

"After you get to a certain level, there is not that great of a difference between DJ's anyway"

BS

"Hell keep posting, I didn't know how ignorant you were about Djing until you posted. Plus, I know who the fuck D styles is...They came up on the circuit after me."

For somebody who puts Qbert on such a high pedestal, you're the one whose ignorant if you're calling Dstyles a biter. If you haven't been following the scratch scene lately, Dstyles is on some next level shit. Qbert aint touchin him. Freal though, listen to Phantazmagorea and tell me that aint better than anything you've done.

www.turntablelab.com
Thats a track from Phantazmagorea. Drums, lead, and solos, all scratched. Solo cuts at ~1:00 done w/ a wahwah pedal.
www.turntablelab.com
another track from the same album. Again, everything scratched.

www.fatsackfilms.com
www.p48.net

Clips from Gunkhole, a band Dstyle tours with. Listen, watch, then tell me what you did in that video or the one on crookedstreetz.com w/ the body tricks are even remotely on the same level. Body tricks don't mean shit if nobody is watching.

"And there is nothing Q bert can't do, trust me."

Trust me, Qbert has yet to prove that he can create good music. Freestyle scratches hardly qualify as music. He ain't touchin that file i posted period.

"I had Dj Swamp at my hotel and killed it. This was before he won the DMC. He told me I was an inspiration to him."

Like I said, battles don't mean shit. I could care less about gimmicks, crowd pleasing cuts and juggles or body tricks. Making music is where the skill is at. DJ Swamp is the epitome of gimmick. Blowin flames, cutting himself w/ broken records... what does that have to do w/ music?

Don't even bring that "disrepecting elders" bs into the discussion b/c thats such a cop out. Im supposed to respect Steve D just b/c he invented juggling? I don't even juggle, why should I care? I respect Steve D no more than I respect Edison for inventing the light bulb, and I use electricity every day.

Ok, I've come to the realization that we're talking about two different things. DJing, Scratching, Turntablism, Battling etc.. they all mean different things to different ppl. I'll agree w/ you that a good DJ should be well rounded, but a Scratch musician and a DJ are completely different. I don't consider a DJ nor a battler a musician. Scratching can me a musical tool, but is hardly ever used to make music. Freestyling is one small aspect of music. I don't give any credit to a rapper that can only freestyle. Btw, the battle scene is practically dead.

So are you claiming to be the best DJ, scratcher, juggler, turntablist or what? (2nd best after Qbert and SteveD). Even though a lot of people still refer to Qbert as DJ Qbert, I hardly call somebody who doesn't mix or rock partys a DJ. Would you call somebody who only scratches a DJ?

You can't appreciate what either of these people acheived?

But DStyles scratching with a wahwah pedal is just plain amazing to you?

I don't understand that at all.

Let's see parke02, this is what we have resorted to not debating or giving reasons when we disagree with someone to say. You say my statement..."After you get to a certain level, there is not that great of a difference between DJ's anyway" is BS, explain...

Let me explain to you what I mean...if DJ Craze battled A Trak, who would win, could you clearly distinguish a winner by any significant margin...No you couldn't, it might be too close to even call, let's say Q Bert was in that battle too, who would win, would the victory we be clear and out right. Those three DJ's that I named have all reached a certain high level of skill, while there are differences among them there is no great difference in their skill level. Just to give you another example, look at the late 80's/early 90's at DJ Cash Money and DJ Jazzy Jeff, could you say that one was clearly better than the other...No.

Exactly what I said..Keep posting, you are losing credibility by the minute...I love it. And second of all, I wouldn't do body tricks if there was no crowd(silly person). I also said In my post that you have to know what works in what arena, I do body tricks instead of just sitting there scratching or doing beat tricks that no one will appreciate..you insolent fool. Only dj contest appreciate it..That's when I break out the technical tricks.I've shown you now two aspects of my djing. I've only given you a taste of the scratching ability. Wow I can't belive that you don't know that significance of what q bert brought to the table. D Styles, Melo D and all of them..copy q bert. I saw their progression because I got a real network, I got dj's that go to the dj contest and send me footage. I got all the clips of Melo D and D styles and all them dudes. He use a guitar thing to get those effects while he scratches,and that's all he does is scratch, with the same hand mind you. They can't touch q bert with a 10 foot pole, they are good and have gotten better from earlier dmc regionals. I see that you only pay attention to somethings I say and not others. I will say it again...I have been over Steve D's house and he showed me some things I have never seen in my life..He has taken beats juggling to a whole different level. The Master always keeps some things hidden from the students. Same with Q bert...Damn imagine if Q bert kept everything to himself. You would have no one to copy. Now, I'm done with that because I'm not gonna have a battle of wits with and unarmed person.....Yo so you battled Cheese Thundercat...So you must know ya history. He was the first NMS champ man he was ahead of his time, just like mixmaster ice. Very quick on the cut. And they use the up and down fader and not the crossfader.

i have to admit that musically Q-Bert does not impress me. He has certainly never made a classic record. I find most of WaveTwisters unlistenable. A-Trak, Craze, Kid Koala and others such as Woody from England are far more 'musical' IMHO.

Cheese was the cause of many people in this area blowing up their phono/line switches trying to duplicate his line fader speed. His cuts were always so damn clean! However, I wouldn't consider myself a historian in any sense. I really only know what I witnessed first hand. I've been around a while so I do know a bit of this and a bit of that...

I see...yeah Alladin use to use it too. I heard Alladin before I saw him. I'm sort of glad that I did now, because I learned with the fader and I was under the impression that he did too. So when I got the triplet scratches down pat, by listening to Alladin, they were with the fader instead of the Phono line switch. But Cheese ill back in the day.

cutting w/ the phono/line swithces it pointless. i havne't seen anybody come close to being able to cut w/ the channel faders like Qbert though.

Is anybody here actually more impressed by Kaseems video than any of the clips I posted?

I understand that Kaseem was being nice making a video to showcase serato scratch but a video doesnt help anybody who has already seen or used the same technology first hand.

DJ Craze endorsing final scratch is a big reason i bought it in the first place. You can imagine my suprise when i found out how laggy final scratch was. Then i come here and Lord Kaseem whom i had never heard of posts a video, claims to be the second best DJ in the world and that serato scratch is good b/c his skills in the video demonstrate so.

J-Bravo, I have yet to see any musical ability from Qbert. Yea man, Wavetwisters put me to sleep, even when i watched the DVD. If you havnet already, check out Phantazmagorea and Scetchbook. I had almost lost all interest in scratching until i heard those albums.

btw, you Serato ppl should endorse Lord Kaseem. After all, he is the 2nd best DJ in the world. As soon as he proves it Im sure most ppl won't even consider final scratch an option..

Dude, take a second, catch your breath and get all of your anger out in one shot...

Breath, stretch, shake, let it go...

You stupid bastard...before you even thought of djing, people were in the process of changing from line switch to fader. That's just how dj's did it back in the day. Dj Dave of Germany was the last world champion to really cut with it prominently. If you really did your research then you wouldn't have bought FS because I saw clipse of CRaze using it and Deduced from the things he didn't try that it wasn;t for me, but it wouldn't be long before someone perfected it. You just do not know enough(about Dj history) for me to even be debating with you. I have to go to a meeting..I'll be back in a minute.

Also, you never heard me say second best...Especially since I named two turntablist that will send me home packing. And you not even gonna get me to say that I am third best. I will say this. Give me an unbiased, non political crowd(no vested interest in who wins) put up ya dj...and I will give him or her hell..I guarantee that I will beat you and anyone you personally know. If you have never heard of me, then ask Q bert, Mixmaster Mike, The X ecutioners, Dj Babu, Dj Rhettmatic..or any other battle dj worth mentioning that's been around more than 3 years. I'm not here to impress you...you silly person. Check the post and see who has the same opinion as you..I don't need to make you look stupid...you are doing a great job doing it yourself.

LK, "you gots to chill" ... dont start insulting other users, thats not really necessary unless you dont have any good arguments. :)

If you say you will beat any dj out there... it all sounds indeed cocky, plus people wont take you serious. another thing... You said that if SSL works with your style of scratching and usage, that it will work out with any dj. Again, you are _not_ top of the line. Period. I know at least one trick which wont work with SSL, which means if there is a dj out there who uses that technique it wont work.
And I am sure there are scratch tricks out there which you never heard of, turntablism is a wide wide field nowadays. I accept if you say, youre a good dj, but not if you say youre one of the best (in the world!).

In the end, the question is, if you dont make yourself look stupid with all the cockiness and unrealistic "I am nearly the best"-statements. Your video showed how cool SSL works, and lets keep it at that.

Pointless spiralling...that will get you no where, just wasting time arguing back and forth...oh I almost got caught up there, to my point...nik39 what is that trick that won't work with SSL, just curious.

I agree, looks like everyone has made up his opinion. LK thinks he is one of the best on the world, and me and parke02 disagree. "Lets agree on the fact that we disagree" © :)

SSL right now is not fast enough to catch up with needle dropping. There are some tricks out there that I saw, which were using the needle dropping heavily (imagine you got different tones in different frequencies in different seperated areas on your vinyl.. thats the trick which is easy to describe). Or another one where you was hitting the thing which holds the needle against the part of the turning table at the side (where the dots are where you can see of the TT is running at a constant speed on a 1210). Or simply leaving the needle on the record, not moving the record but "drumming" on it (which is not really a trick ;-) )

Okay I got you, I guess those were pretty obvious now that I think about it, no good needle dropping for tones and looped skipless records; and no banging the needle against the platter but the last one you mentioned (tapping on the record) surprises me, I would have thought that you could do that. These are not necessities to rocking/DJing a party so I can live with that. I think the main purpose of this product is to avoid having to carry all those heavy ass records when you DJ. If you want to do some battle/trick stuff, bring your 20 real records with you and call it a day, that's about what most DJ's carry with them to battles/exhibitions anyway.

I do have a question about the latency though, I run on a buffer setting of 2, and yes I do notice the latency (I'm pretty fast on the cut---no I won't be posting a video/file or getting into a debate about me saying or not saying that I am the second fastest DJ in the world...LOL). I found that with the latency, I have more time to think about my cuts, either that or I'm getting used to it and making the adjustments accordingly. What buffer settings are you all using, especially the ones that cut/scratch a lot and (dare I say it) do all those tricks?

Cool, lets get back to the original subject of this thread, veeery good idea :-)


What exactly do you mean?


That might be the case. I have learned that the human perception can adjust quite fast. There is one experiment where a test person had to wear special glasses which made the view upside down. After a couple of days wearing this glasses the brain adjusted the view and "automatically" flipped it over so the test person could see normal while looking through these glasses. Fantastic.

BTW I use a buffer setting of 1, and I sometimes have the feeling that it lags, but .. it could me my "mind playing tricks on me" (who remembers that song? ;) ).

Ghetto Boyz....I vaguely remember one of the lines that said something about having bloody knucklees from punching the concrete...

lol @ knucklees

where is that damn edit button??

Yeah I remember that song. I'm not quite sure if I phrased the "more time to think" correctly. With my off hand, I now find that I have more rhythm than before, and the cuts are tighter, and it seems I can perform more clicks (fader movements for those that don't know) with my off hand than before. I'll try it at a buffer setting of 1. When I first got it, it used to glitch up at 1 and I still noticed the latency, but I was running the old version of the software then so things could be different now. I don't think it's my machine I got a Sony Vaio laptop...P4, 2.8, 60 gig, etc.

Oh and for needle thing on the platter, you can just switch to the regular vinyl mode and it would work, didn't think of that earlier.

I don't look stupid. I don't consider them insults...I consider them my opinion, just as you have your opinion(that you dont hesitate to throw around) Cocky is a good word to me. That's also my opinion. I can criticize you just as you have criticized me.(That's my perogative). SSL is better than anything on the market right now...unless you can surprise me..Hell that's a fact. I can live with not doing some needle droping. Alladin did it in NMS First...That's as far as I was going with that trick. Nik 39 here is another one of my opinions...I WOULD RATHER BE COCKY THAN WACK...and I'm not talking about djing..You seem like an all around Wack person...Not an insult...My opinion. I put mine out there to be judged..Cant say the same for others. I will say it again...GIVE ME AN UNBIASED CROWD...WITH NO VESTED INTERST IN WHO WINS...PICK YOUR FAVORITE DJ...AND I WILL GIVE THEM HELL...PERIOD. If that sounds silly cocky...I meant it to be. But you are right it pointless talking to these 2. For those that want to know...I scratch heavy..there is no noticeable latency..Now I'm pretty sure Mr(other side of issue just for just because I can...) will have something different to say. But If I came from out of Space and needed an opinion about Djing, I would take my advice and get the SSL. The one or two tricks that you can't do..Needle drop looping(Who still thinks this trick is impressive)..you may not be able to do..but if you have to do this trick then take the control vinyl off and put a record on and do it. I have to give it to Nik..cause he is pretty crafty..you should be a lawyer..He trying to character defimate me...making it seem like I am this over blown ego..and I shouldn't be listened to because..."Oh God, He's too Cocky". Fact of the matter is...Nik should go a practice more djing if that's what you consider yourself. George Bush is using this same tactic in politics now...He actually Dodged the draft..but tried to beat Kerry to the war hero issue...Kerry's strongest issue(actully volenteered to go to war). I'm on to Ya..just letting you know that. Do you consider Clown an insult...Cause it's just my opinion...and my Critic of you...lol.

LK what buffer setting do you use?

Funny that I am not the only one who thinks you have a blown ego. But its all good, I know I am a wack lawyer who needs more dj practice, sure you must know it, allthough you never heard me. I think most of the people here can make up their own mind/opinion after we all made our points... I gotta take my clown nose on and do some wicky wack scratches. Oh, I might use your video as a tutorial .. Haha ;-) LK, peace, and have a good day.

And If you been practicing as long as me, battling since trick djing inception,have the respect of the dj's that others look up to, then you to would be confident...But you are not confident, because you don't try, and don't have the tenacity...You are scared to fail...and would rather hide behind your criticism of others just so they don't concentrate on you and your short comings. Don't make me get my Dr. Phil on in here.

Lord Kaseem, what buffer setting do you use?

LK, I dont have a problem with Dr. Phil. Nothing I am scared of, I stated the fact that my skills are not as good as yours. Now what? Do I need to respect your dj skills? Youre better than me, but what you showed in the video is nothing really special, there are tons of djs that can do the same (I dont claim to be one of them, I am better with mixing than with scratching).

Man, get off your horse, and dont be so conceited. Chilling with all these names you mentioned might gone to your head completely. Its nice to be important but its even more important to be nice. I've spoken to Q (who is better than you, as you say..) and he is faaar more chilled and less cocky than you are. Anyway, I dont take your "opinion" personal, lets keep it that way. I have nothing more to say to you about that matter here. :)

"You stupid bastard...before you even thought of djing, people were in the process of changing from line switch to fader. That's just how dj's did it back in the day."

My comment was regarding DJs that still use line switches. Not all Djs used line switches, a lot used the channel faders which is why some prefer scratcher reverse (same motion as using channel faders).

LK, whatever dude. So you think you're 3rd best now. I could care less. You display NO hand control whatsoever in your cuts. And I don't give a crap about battling. Battling is WACK. Yeah i said it.. WAAAAAAAAACK. Waste of time period. Makes ppl think they're better than they are...

when you talked to q bert im pretty sure that you didn't say, "Q bert you are good but, your not the standard". I am nice to people who are nice to me. Brother you get what you give...just scroll up. I'm not the one questioning skillz here. I showed you just enough. Everything else is for payed clients. I don't even like to be video taped because people steal your style and claim if for there own..I.e. D styles. And I wasn't so called chilling with them..I practiced and built with them. I only mentioned them because you so called never heard of me..Not braggin,I'm telling the people who don't know and question my authenticity, I mentioned them..Isn't that what you were looking for. I'm like rubber..you get what you give to me 2 times. If you are nice to me...I go out of my way to be nice to you...If you challenge me...then, it's on and poppin. I won't post on this subject again..I'm moving on..its fruitless struggle.

wow...this thread blew up...its like reading a novel

oh yeh. the brain is amazing. one experiment you can try for yourself is the old one-shoe off/one-shoe on. if you've ever walked around with only one shoe on before, it feels totally weird. do this for awhile then after a few hours put the shoe back on. bam. what's supposed to feel "normal" doesn't anymore because your brain has adjusted.

It went from..."YO, you got killer crabs..to Yo, you don't have hand controll" LMAO....Are you trying to convince me...lol. Man you don't even believe that..lol. That' tape i made was not a routine..It was purposely on the fly(no set routine)showing the ease of SSL. I'm done with Nik..and now I am done with you Parke..(and to think, I tried to help you). I know you have heard of Aesop fables..and the Sour Grapes Theory. "I can't do it...So it's wack". Ignorance is truely Bliss. And now for you Last Word fanatics..I'll leave to you with your ridiculous post. I'm not going anywhere...just not going to keep posting about this subject.

Damn, 1 more thing...I keep my buffer on two...I had it on Zero, but I didn't like the Choppy graphics. But it still worked perfectly.May be if your computer is faster than mine(1.2 ghz amd) then it will work for you flawlessly.

yadda yadda yadda... heard it all before. who's got the bigger dick? personally i don't want to know...

<-- quietly moves onto the next thread

Yep, nothing to add here.

If you get into the habit of previewing, you won't have a problem, you go through and read your post straight-away anyway, right?

We are coming from the standpoint that editing posts will cause threads to become confusing when people start editing posts and someone has already replied.

"when you talked to q bert im pretty sure that you didn't say, "Q bert you are good but, your not the standard". I am nice to people who are nice to me. Brother you get what you give...just scroll up. I'm not the one questioning skillz here. I showed you just enough. Everything else is for payed clients. I don't even like to be video taped because people steal your style and claim if for there own..I.e. D styles."

RIDICULOUS. Man... freal... retarded. My brain hurts reading that...

One thing I do respect about Qbert is he is very modest considering how many people out there worship him like some sort of scratch god.

Stop beating around the bush... WHAT DID DSTYLES BITE OF QBERTS?

Thats some bullshit about not wanting to be videotaped cus you don't want ppl to bite... You think Miles Davis, Jimi Hendrix or any other innovative musician there ever was worried about that kinda bullshit? PLEASE...

Keep practicing your circus clown battle routines, keep thinking you're the best, keep stressin about copy-cats biting your wack style. Its SOOO obvious you don't know what you're talking about. You have avoided EVERY SINGLE question i've asked. All you can do is call ppl names, claim lack of respect, and yap on about biting. Thats soooo weak its not even funny.

Im done here, its useless trying to argue w/ someone who can't even come up w/ a decent counterarguement. I feel like im arguing w/ my little brother... even he doesn't resort to name calling when he knows he's beat

yea.. i never said you had killer crabs. and you don't display any hand control. its just clickity clickity click... wa wa wackkk

Parke02 there is a red quote link next to each post, which puts that post in It makes it alot easier to read what was quoted. ;)

Mindless babbling..trying to get the last word...have it. I'm moving on. YOu just don't know enough to even make a convincing arguement.

calm: it's the only way to post.

Stick to the terms of this board guys. If you have a differing opinion from another user, then state it in calm, reasonable terms, or just keep it to yourself.

I have to say this...I'm humble enough to know this...I went from trying to be good help to..being painted as an arrogant dj who looks down on others. I allowed myself to get into battle mode just because of a idiotic statement, therefore giving someone else the room to say ..."See look at him his arrogant". If someone says I am not "good Dj",I not going to sit there and twiddle my thumbs,I don't consider that arrogant(no matter who tries to paints the picture) I was only defending my years of practice and loyalty to turntables(as well as credentials)...not everyone is as enthusiastic about djing as I. Not everyone set out to be a "Great DJ". Cool. Very valuable lesson I've learned in here. We are from different schools of thought..I treat it like martial arts...I show you enough to respect me, but not enough so you can study me. The master always keeps tricks up his sleeve(in case of Battles) But some of you don't come from a battling background..so that's why you say things that you say. We battle over here, if you say you are the best then you got to show and prove put money up or something. But I don't want to make it seem like I am picking on people. There is enough blame to go around on why this thread went off subject...Just taking responsibility for the part I played in it. Won't happen again.

All DJs bite. If they didn't we sure wouldn't have names for all these scratches. Even Q-bert admits he started out biting Mixmaster Mike. And it's obvious everybody has a preference for different styles. What D-Styles and those guys were doing was nice but I don't see where what they were doing was doper than the Scratch Piklz or X-Ecutioners. I still like me some Jazzy Jeff and Cashmoney. I also like Rob Swift's style, A-Trak...shoot I'll listen to Grandmaster Flash's "Wheels of Steel" over some of the stuff I've heard from the DMC competitions. No point in fighting about who's the best because everybody is going to have a preference different from somebody else's.

Now about that latency thing...SSL beats FS. As for Digiscratch - don't believe the hype.

I've heard there's a DJ thats 'better then Qbert' who's using a new digital scratch system that kicks SSL's ass and has a latency of -4. Can anyone confirm this?

I heard he drives a 2007 Bentley GT on 30"s also. He must be the mantis.

Isn't that the one you have to hook up to an IBM mainframe. I think it's called Super Double-D Dooper Scratch. Not sure who the DJ was though. Heard Qbert paid the guy not spread the word that he whooped him in a battle.

Where did you hear something like that?

I saw him perform last week ..all he had to do is think of the scratch and b4 he touches the control record u hear the scratch..he also had the new rane ttm67... with the microwave zfaders

i meant x faders... but come to think of it i think they were called z faders

one of the worst aspects of battle djing/turntablism is all the psuedo mysical/starwars guff. "masters' etc etc. This has nothing to do with music.

got my serato scratch live delivered to me earlier today...

Only got to play around w/ it for ~30 minutes though. It installed easily, no problems detecting the box. The green calibration circles are kinda oval shaped and when i click on the estimate threshold button the slider moves all the way to the right. Does that mean my needles are worn? Im using piggyback cables so I don't have to run the turntable rcas through the scratch box. Could that be introducing background noise?

Sound quality wise, everything is good. I have my buffer at 1 and i haven't noticed and pops or audio drops. Needle dropping seems to be slower than how long i remember final scratch taking.
My control vinyl are kinda warped so i haven't done much scratching so i can't really comment on the latency just yet.

Is there a setting in the new beta to change the position of the track start on the control vinyl? Its a little annoying having to drop the needle at the very edge of the record and it would be nice to be able to move the track start a couple rotations ahead.

All in all im happy w/ the package. Its good enough for what i need it for. Hopefully i won't have stability issues

Yes! get rid of those things now!

the thrus on our box are a million times better than those horrible things.

"Is there a setting in the new beta to change the position of the track start on the control vinyl?"

Its on the way - and is said to be in the next release.

glad to see this thread is going the right way now :)



yes, i have noticed same thing. any word on this SSL team?

could this be improved in a future update? sometimes is very annoying, specially if you compare SSL with FS...

this thread should have been locked a long time ago

I still would like to see this Super Duper scratch that not even qbert can perform....Can I get some verification on this...I need to see this scratch performed. And who was the supposed dj that did this...I need proof everyone I have talked to is giving me conflicting stories.

You can't be serious Kaseem...keep the jokes rolling...this is straight comedy.

parke02 wrote:


Try setting your USB audio buffer a little farther to the right and see if that improves your needle dropping speed.



Make sure the platter is stopped (with the needle sitting on the record) when setting your threshold.

I don't get it..."I can't be serious"...what do you mean dj unknown...I would like to see or hear this scratch. Not unless he was just joking about a super duper scratch, in that case then maybe I can see you saying I can't be serious. But if it's true I would like to hear or see this scratch. If they were just joking about someone doing a new super duper scratch then,o.k. it went over my head.

LK, it was obviously a joke.

did a little more testing last night. I noticed that the cue-point
had a tendency of drifting when the record was stopped.

I was trying to match cue stickers for both control records so they would point to the same position, and while i would hold them down to put them on, after a couple seconds i could here some pops and clicks and see the cue point starting to drift in the display. FS never did that. Anybody else have the same problem?

its due to ur threshhold setting

Well that one went over my head...You just don't joke about things like that.

ok, so i gotta get rid of my piggyback cables and use the scratch box. so I need a power adaptor now right? where can i get one? can i just use a generic one from radio shack?

1- what piggyback cables?

2- generic one from radio$hack will work (see ssl manual for part #)

3- i have had luck with a powered usb hub, but don't trust it enough to use for live shows

any chance i can get replacements for my warped control records? whats up w/ records these days anyway... seems like a good 70% of the records i buy are warped or pressed on some thick-ass vinyl

store1.yimg.com

w/ these you can avoid the use of a power adaptor b/c you plug your turntable rcas into the piggyback cables instead of running them through your scratch box. The signal is weakened but it would be a nice trade-off for not having to use a power adaptor. I used to use em w/ final scratch no probs.

anybody have ground loop issues w/ the scratch box? i had to use ground loop isolators w/ final scratch at some gigs depending on the setup.

LOL, joke not young padwan, laughter and joking leads to the dark side of DJing. Only through true seriousness and dedication shall you become a true DJ master, use the SSL it is strong in your family, with it there is not a trick you cannot perform.

lol

there is absolutely nothing funny about that.

parke02 Before you continue to clutter this thread with post after post, please read the updated manual and use the forum's search function.

Also-----Treat people with respect and in turn, you earn respect.

sorry, wasnt aware of an updated manual. i did a search on cue drift but couldnt find any relevant posts. btw i haven't disrespected anybody who hasn't disrespected me first

sure

No. Unlike FS, SSL does not have ground loop issues.

Well, you wouldn't absolutely need a power adapter if you're laptop can stay connected, but if you ask my advice, sound quality is paramount, and those cables are the worst thing you could do to a system IMHO.

It's all about active splits, if you want quality.

Thnanks, I think I'll pick up some of those.

Josh and Yuri, I took the piggback cables off and adjusted the threshold as you said. Threshold is at -48 and I still get cue point drifts when the record is stopped. I also noticed that the pitch in the display continually jumps around +/- ~0.1-0.5% while a song is playing. Pitch drift correction is on.

Also, I was mixing for a good 30-40 minutes when the track that was playing became watery and scratchy sounding and the tracking light started blinking red. I lifted the needle, set it back down and it played fine again.


My settings:
threshold -48
usb buffer 1
autofill off
system specs in my profile

your system is still picking up noise somewhere unfortuneately.. i used to get that all the time and then i bought rotary knobs for my mixer and i have the threshold at 62 now with no cue drift.. b4 i would always get it

[Quote] I also noticed that the pitch in the display continually jumps around +/- ~0.1-0.5% while a song is playing. Pitch drift correction is on.
[/Quote]

yeah i dont know whatsup with that.. it happens with everyone.. plus there is still some drift even with drift correction on.. thats why some of us are patiently waiting for the new vinyls (!)

[Quote]Also, I was mixing for a good 30-40 minutes when the track that was playing became watery and scratchy sounding and the tracking light started blinking red. I lifted the needle, set it back down and it played fine again.
[/Quote]

you had some sort of dust and or accumulation on the needle.. you really need to be super cautious and clean the needle all the time while your spinning.. its really somehting you have to get used to unfortuneatley

[Quote]
My settings:
threshold -48
usb buffer 1
autofill off
system specs in my profile

try setting your threshhold to about 40 or 35 and see if u still get the cue drift, but personally i would say just keep it at 48 and live with it.. when you actually start the record the cue will be in the right spot

My gosh this general discussion rocks the bells. I've learned so much history from reading this specific forum.

All I have to say is damn that dj . . . LK made my day . . . THERE IT IS . . . to to to to do tidum . . . to to to to tidum, wickie wickie wick wick . . . THERE IT IS.

Appreciate it.

some cocky shit on this board....hmmmmmmm.

Mix in a portion of anonymity with a cup of scratch musician competitiveness seasoned with a dash of critique and pinch of ego and you get what we have here! I think it is great to see the fire that these young gunz (no offense LK, term of endearment from an old head) have burning. I also think it's great to see them questioned and put to task. It is the only proper way for this art form to grow. Those little two-syllable phrases can bring out the beast in many people, i.e. 'yeah right', 'prove it' and 'show me'.

Some will say cocky. I will say "alright Kid, show me..."

Great observation ThunderCat....That's exactly what I'm saying..but I have to keep in mind that some were not exposed to that battle scene..so some people just don't "get me". I'm glad I don't have to explain it to everyone...lol.

hey Lk ! thanx for that video. Dont trip about some of those other people saying battling is wack. I think its kinda of wack now but not back in the days. And your right I think qbert is probably the best dj. he's always on top of his game. I also know thats probably not your best skills on that video. Anybody who knows shit like steve d, cash money, dj miz gets my respect. Some of these guys only know stuff because battle records and diy videos came out. D styles is dope but forget about beating qbert. I think a djs style makes him dope like mixmaster mike. He doesnt do the most technical scratches but battle him and your in trouble just like that new music seminar he won. LK whatever you do dont stop posting I need info on ssl from a scratch dj point of view!!!

No doubt..If anyone needs help from my point of view..just let me know.

I had to join this forum because I was getting really riled up with the ridiculous amount of disrespect that some of these kids are showing Lord Kaseem.

All he did was make a very reasonable claim that he couldn't notice a problem based on his experiences with the product. I didn't read his original claim to be particularly cocky.

On the otherhand, I think some of the haters come off as extremely ignorant. I mean, you kids are coming in here dissing on the guy when you all freely admit that you aren't nearly as skilled and would get smoked in a battle with Lord Kaseem. And you're fretting about a few milliseconds of lag? You probably couldn't even tell the difference. Do you realize how stupid you sound?

I understand the the distinction between technical skill and trying to do something musical with turntable skills like scratching and juggling. I've heard a bunch of the so-called more "musical" scratching that parke02 posted and I think that's definitely the direction things need to go, in order to advance the art and to get it taken seriously as music, and not some circus sideshow; but that has nothing to do LK's technical skills or his critics' relative lack of skills.

Anybody who's devoted REAL TIME to building his/her skills would appreciate what Lord Kaseem can do, because they know what's involved. To nitpick and twist somebody's word behind some Internet message board, and - worst of all - not even have the skills to back up all that tough talk when called out is pure GARBAGE.

If freestylin' is so overrated, why don't you guys post some Ricci Rucker shiz? Because you can't? That's right.

Respect.

Qbert doesnt impress you? and the other cat said qbert puts him to sleep? thats crazy. A-trak, craze,kid koala were probably writing their abc's when qbert was scratching. One guy said he almost lost all interest in scratching,then why is he looking into serato "scratch" and use to be a owner of final "scratch" he probably looked into digi"scratch" catch my drift.

A vast majority of DJs don't scratch at all... maybe the gentleman in question just wanted a stable program to play his digital files.

itunes is pretty stable.J/k.

I appreciate you understanding where I'm coming from..the more people that join the community..the more people will understand. Glad to hear some like minded people in here. Sky is the limit with this program believe me.

LK, i believe you i dont need a to see a famous dj use it to make my decision.

and this is just the beginning...

MUSICALLY he does nothing for me. Everything I have heard of his that has been recorded/released has been uninteresting TO ME. That is not to deny that he is technically amazing.

right.. read the entire post before you comment. qbert has yet to demonstate he has ANY MUSICAL talent. sure rhythm is a big part of music, but how many drummers out there are making music w/ only the drums? i could care less how old who was at what time and whether or not they've been in the "scene" since day one. the fact that you've been in the scene from day one doesn't make you better or more knowldegable about it. atrak was barely in his teens when he took dmc and would rip apart plenty of pioneers or inovators in a battle.

i was the one who said i had almost lost all interest in scratching, and with good reason. a couple of years ago the scratch scene was stale as hell. overall, it still is. final scratch and serato scratch had nothing to do w/ me regaining interest in scratching either.

hmm, i was going to post a response...

forget it.. why don't you just read the entire post/debate from the begining instead of getting words twisted and making bs assumptions.

You mean playing the piano?

taking my quote out of context. I played the piano for like 7 years growing up. I hated it... It was pretty much forced on me by my parents. I learned to read and play a lot of the classics but i hardly call that musical talent either. Anybody can learn to play somebody else's music. Its just a matter of practice

ok, so what would you call musical talent?

I wish I practiced playing the piano more...I was too lazy to practice scales and chords, I decided to skratch my mom's records instead...lol

certainly not 90% of all battle routines i've seen or somebody learning to play mozart or beethoven on the piano. say a person is quick at learning and learns to play a difficult song on different instruments. is that musical talent or just raw talent in general?

i'd say musical talent refers to a person's ability to create music. music that has some meaning to it... it should mean something to the artist behind it, not something the artist made to please others. it should embody what the artist what thinking or feeling at the time or create emotion in the listener. musical talent also displays innovation is beyond what any music theory class can teach you. im not saying music theory isn't important but can be restricting if taken as a set of rules.

would you say a producer that consistenly has songs at the top of the charts has musical talent just b/c a lot of people like his music? knowing what others like is a talent as well, the same talent that makes a good dj, but i wouldn't always consider it musical talent.

dam josh, you got me really thinking w/ that question. what would you call musical talent?

yup, me too. i always wanted to play the drums and was too stubborn being forced to play it to get any enjoyment out of it. i wish i would have kept playing though.

If hating was a musical talent parke02 is a bonafide Mozart! *L

Im sorry, atrak is dope but without qbert, flare, disk and others who took scratching to another level there would be no atrak. You just have no respect for pioneers. These guys put all their skills out there for show. I bet Atrak had all the qbert video tapes and records to get where he got. Some of these guys get out of the game to do other stuff like producing etc. Take steve d for example you think that if he didnt stop battling he wouldnt be the best at beat juggling cmon! I just give props to those djs that were around when there was hardly any dj videos, battle records, quik cutting faders etc. There is not alot of creativity these days.

Glad I could be of service. I agree with you, I think the difference between talent and reproduction comes from adding yourself to the music, which in the case of classical piano would be after passing the grades you can re-interpret a piece, play it with real flair, or write your own and it be enjoyable to hear.

But DJing is different to playing the piano, I think the creative input of Q into the game is undeniable, likewise all the pioneers. Even if you mightn't listen to their stuff on record, I would say their talent goes without saying.

Production-wise though...that kind of talent is having many kinds of talent in one package, by defnition the best producers have musical talent, engineering know-how and amazing work ethic. But you hear all kinds of stories, who know's what really goes on behind closed doors...

I think the distinction that needs to be made is that you can appreciate that someone has talent, without necessarily enjoying their output. I don't think anyone can deny that Frank Zappa had enormous talent, but how many people do you know that really really get into his stuff?

True, you can definitely acknowledge a person's talent w/o enjoying their music. Good music like good art is subjective.

If you're going to separate DJing from piano playing, as far as musical talent is concerned, you should also make the distinction btw DJing and what others do w/ the turntable that isn't DJing. DJing is used as such a broad term and doesn't really describe the type of thing Q, battle DJs, or scratch musicians do. The talent that goes into DJing a party or what Q does at his gigs is entirely different.

I never said Q doesn't have talent. I think he is one of the best as far as technicality and cleaniness on the cut. Q and many others have innovated and pioneered cuts and styles. I don't think Q has done anything in a long while as far as innovating or pioneering and I think Q has yet to prove that he has MUSICAL talent. I think Q no longer has the desire to innovate or create music. Hes just enjoying his thing freestyle cutting and getting paid a load of $ for it. Thats cool w/ me, if he doesn't want to make music he doesn't have to.

If you've heard Wavetwisters, its mostly Q's cuts over Mixmaster Mikes programmed beats. Easily the most musical song on the album, is razorblade alcohol slide, produced by d-styles; the only song on the album entirely scratched.

Grandmaster Theodore, inventor/pioneer of scratching. He admits to inventing scratching on accident, is he still a pioneer? Even if it wasn't on accident, does the fact that he invented scratch mean it was talent that created it? I can't say much about his talent as a DJ/scratch artist/ or whatever he does now, b/c i haven't heard or seen him do anything, but he sure as hell wouldn't be my first choice if I needed a DJ for a party or scratch gig.

Maybe it wasn't talent that led him to come up with scratching, I doubt he was the first to hear that noise anyway, the talent was recognizing it was dope and taking it further.

I'm pretty sure Grandwizard Theodore can still rock a party because that was the whole point when they started out. As he says scratching was an accident. And it was just added in to enhance the mix. People at a party are not looking for a DMC contest nor a whole night of D-Styles type scratch music. It used to be pretty much understood you had to be able to mix. Even old school battle DJs could mix because they earned their money rocking parties not battling. DJs knew people came to dance, not watch a scratch demonstration (although they would throw one in every now and again just to change things up a bit)

All I know is this . . . that richard fella sure makes scartching and beat making on that one, just one, weird looking space ship look real easy. How does he do that thing that makes all of us go, "HMMMMMMMMMMM?"

CHECK IT OUT BOIIIIIII!

www.skratchworx.com

I could have sworn, back in the day, he played "mary had a little lamb" with one 1200. Man that routine is still nice to watch, he literally . . . literally scratched that record, homey! I still haven't seen anyone match that routine, let alone beat it. The only routine that I've seen come close was done by JASMINE's boy friend.

Has anyone seen his performance in Seattle, back in 1999, when he scratched and made techno beats with one turntable? I thought it was simply marvelous and splendid. . . even crazy miami boy had to give Richard a hand clap.

Me also

on topic:

I still dont get it 100%. I did AJs test (not exactly as described) and it doesnt matter if i test it on my old Athlon Xp 1500 or on my new Core 2 Duo. Same latency on both systems.

So does that mean the 6ms systemlatency which is added to the 1 ms Interface latence of SSL (i guess, please correct me if i am wrong), is not changeable?

Cause there is no difference while cuttin using SSLs lowest buffersetting compared to my very old PC, even if my Core2Duo system is like 5 times faster.

Further more, if your pc can handle SSL buffersetting 1, without dropouts, it doesnt matter HOW fast you pc/hardware is (or how good in terms of quality)... the lowest overall latency of SSL is 7ms on a Pc and 8ms on a Mac (even if you have a Mac Pro Quad) ?

on topic:

I still dont get it 100%. I did AJs test (not exactly as described) and it doesnt matter if i test it on my old Athlon Xp 1500 or on my new Core 2 Duo. Same latency on both systems.

So does that mean the 6ms systemlatency which is added to the 1 ms Interface latence of SSL (i guess, please correct me if i am wrong), is not changeable?

Cause there is no difference while cuttin using SSLs lowest buffersetting compared to my very old PC, even if my Core2Duo system is like 5 times faster.

Further more, if your pc can handle SSL buffersetting 1, without dropouts, it doesnt matter HOW fast you pc/hardware is (or how good in terms of quality)... the lowest overall latency of SSL is 7ms on a Pc and 8ms on a Mac (even if you have a Mac Pro Quad) ?

thanks opera. sorry for double post.

Correct.


Correct.


Correct.

From the 7ms latency (I think thats the best you can achieve) the majority comes from the USB bus latency and some buffers. So actually its only 1ms (1USB bus cycle) computation. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

thanks nik!

Ok, then according to the Mixvibes tests (with PCI interface and USB) + your response to my question above -> USB is the reason for the majority of the overall latency.

So does that mean, that in theory a Vinyemulation software/interface using a PCI-soundcard, can achieve even lower latency than 7ms?

And OSX isnt the reason for macs having one ms more latency than Pcs, its just has something to do, how Macs handle this "USB bus cycle" ?

Sorry but i dont understand that:



Since i guess SSL1 USB is the same as Audiotracks 44 USB, can you say that (if you add the input and output latency of the Mixvibes Audiotrack USB test = 7ms = same as SSL1 on pc)- as you said above - USB forces like 99% of the overall latency, and that just the SSL software/hardware is superior compared to the mixvibes-solution (even PCI), because SSL seems to add just 1ms compared to the 6ms processing latency Mixvibes-software fabricates?

Hope that makes sense :P

I think they are right about this.


Think so.


AFAIK the macs cant go down to a buffer size of 1ms, but then they have smaller buffers anyway which makes it possible to achieve a lower latency than on a PC.


Well, maybe not 99%, in this example its more like 85% ;)

Dont forget even the mixvibes software wont get rid of the latency completely.

Whats that quote?

But then i dont get it. Everybody - even the Rane guys - say that minimum overall latency is 8ms on a Mac, which is 1ms more than on a Pc.



Thats what i mean. It seems - according to the tests i quote on the bottom of this post, that PCI (input+output latency) = 3ms (Maya 44 PCI) and USB = 7 ms. But overall (including process latency of the software) Mixvibes can't compete -even when using the PCI interface- cause they tested an average software latency of 6ms. Maybe i am comparing apples with bananas. Or Mixvibes improved the software latency lately.



Quoted from parke02 post on the top:

Thanks for the info.


I think it was the other way round, but I might be wrong.

From the Mixvibes page:



Ok comparing that to the in the above quoted test-results, i guess its not 100% true, since they tested input+output latency using a Maya44 PCI = 3ms.

BUT if they really improved the program latency this means Mixvibes has twice as low latency as SSL. Cause the weak point seems to be USB.

PLS officials, Rane/Serato guys.... confirm the relevance of my theory.

Ok did some research and talked to some guys...

SSL cant compete in terms of latency with Mixvibes+Pci-soundcard. Actually if you use a good Pci/Firewire Interface you have less then half SSLs latency.

So for pure scratching SSL isnt the No.1 choice anymore.

Well, I would first measure the latency before really trusting marketing geeks. FS was also supposed to have "2.5ms" latency, where what they meant was that the ASIO latency was at 2.5ms (only one direction...).

Nik, man, do you really believe i trust marketing geeks, before testing it? ;)

I tested it, and yes i don't know if the proclaimed 3ms actual latency that Mixvibes told us in the preferences are true, but it does really!! feel closer to conventional vinyl than SSL.

Try it out.

Just bought torq to try out.

Mi hev no money fo dem mixvibes. ;)