Racists to oppose it ?

Or

Disrespectful to try to build it?

Make it a small Mosque Mexican style.

aka Mosquito.

small bit of both

Keep in mind, there were innocent lives lost of all faiths.

Here's a partial list of muslims who died on 9/11. (No they weren't all flying the planes)

islam.about.com


Technically, If you're against a group of people who are a particular religious faith you are not being "racist". Not sure if creedist is a word though.

Though I'm borderline athiest, because I have my serious doubts about there being a "higher power" (see official religion thread) I still believe that others have the right to religious freedom. So long at the religion is not preaching the killing, or mass killing of another group of people. (see Adolf Hitler, Slobodan Milošević, George W. Bush, etc.)

Not all muslims are terrorists, not all jews are rich, not all black people eat watermelon & chicken, not all white people can't dance, not all christians are nice people. To deny this group their right to worship is wrong.

If I wanted to build a christian church in Waco, Texas would I be denied because it's near the branch davidian compound where 84 people were killed? Probably not. They were a small group of people who considered themselves "christian", but didn't represent all christians.

LOL at "mosquito" though.

Do you think your point of view would have been the same if you had a loved one die in the attack?

NAY! USA! USA! USA!

there is already a few mosque that are within a few blocks of the site. i don't there needs to be another one. i understand that it wasn't the religon that caused the attack, it was the views of a group of individuals. just think it's still too soon for this. maybe another 40 years they can build something nearby.

too soon no offense 911 was terrible and brought fear to the USA, but to make a big deal about whats being built around there is lame, have you been around there its a dead zone, we cant cry because someone wants to build a mosque there..... americans take down whole cities at a time killing thousands not 2 thousand but thousands of civilians, call it was or not but we boast to be over it and "these colors dont run" bullshit, imagine how the Japanese feel iwojima, Hiroshima, and the US still has army bases there that kill innocent kids when choppers crash into school buildings during training exercises. they kids have to drill and drill in case it happens and were crying about a religious center, when this country was founded by religious" pilgrims", yes you can also say pilgrims bought death and disease but that happened all throughout history because nooone was educated in illnesses and treatments.

its a big fucking empty hole in the ground and its sad if youve been there, if were so patriotic rebuild it and make it withstand any attack, keeping it a hole in the ground doesn't put out a message of prosperity and getting through it, and as americans we should accept all faiths, races, and languages. this country seems to be going backwards, if ppl stop being fucking racist towards eachother we'd be alright, seems to me that all the racists that ive personally seen are the ignorant trashy people. and as for the ethnicities, myself included you dont have to live and be the stereotype that allows racism, seems to be hard for people but i think ignorance is whats making the problem not a mosque

I tear up a little when ever I see news reports, old news reports and other interviews when they talk to people on how they lost loved ones. Shit, I even ambarrassly tear up when I hear the Star Spangled Banner sung well at a sporting event. So, I think yeah. I'd still feel the same. You can't discriminate against anyone, It's just un-American.

This woman's son was returned to her in 34 pieces.

www.msnbc.msn.com

Now, if NY already had a rule in place that Mosques, Churches, Synagogues, Chapels, whatever they can only have so many per square mile, I'd totally understand. But I don't think that's the case here.

call it war*******

I say yes.

I find it very ironic that religion inspires so much of the hate, discrimination, and violence in the world. I suppose it's not religion by itself, but people using their chosen religion as a means to justify what they do and to influence others to do the same.

+1

Its a bit of both because as a religion you are supposed to be kinda sensitive to plights like this, i could see a busniess throwin salt in the would but a religion should know better. On the other hand i think americans would be outraged if muslims protested the building of a christioan church in iraq or afganistan near a US attack site. At this point alot of the US kinda reminds me of one of those alcoholic\junkies you see on those documentaries on A\E intervention shows. The ones who are being interviewed and their excuse for being a life looser is because something happened to them forever ago. Like their mom died or they were raped when they were 15 and now their 40 still living at home wasted on heroin and never had a job usign that as an excuse. Its like ya what happened to you was terrible but at some point you gotta pick yourself up and get over it and get your life going. IF were so concerend with this tragety how about we stop doing hateful things and protesting muslims who had nothing to do with it and find the one who ACUTUALLY planned the damn thing, yuo know the guy we STILL havent found

My question is, why do they even need to build this right by the site? I can't believe there is not another spot in all of New York to build it. Even if they do build it, it's goin to be nothing but trouble for them. Some racist idiot's are do drive bys, or light it on fire or blow it up or some other crazy shit. It's unfortunate, but thats the way this backwards country is. So why not just save the trouble and conflict for both sides and build it somewhere else.

...and if Black people had this attitude during the 60's, where would they be now?

Soul train??

Lets not be naive. You think of a mosque you think of the middle east and radicals. Its not 100% your fault because the media force fed this shit to you for years. Still it's up to you to form your own opinion and find your own facts. Now I'm sure any of us who are somewhat educated knows that muslims make up 1/5th of the world population. We also know that islam does not equal ethnicity. You may also know that Arabs only make up 20% of the religion's followers.

So why would a mosque be disrespectful?

because people are ignorant and you cant change that

I used to work in the Towers, lost a LOT of people on 9-11.


Its a free country for everyone at all times, not just when it doesnt hurt because of a terrible act. We dont have the right to tell them to move.

The media makes you think they will be holding 5pm pipe bomb classes every wednesday. Its a church dude. Chill out.

www.youtube.com view

Disrespectful to try to build it

Well worth watching and very informative.

More informative (and funny) commentary:

www.thedailyshow.com

WTF is up in this country! People are such hypocrates.
It shouldnt work one way. Why do people get freedom of religion but I dont get freedom of anti religion.Isnt it our right to believe what we want?Somebody somewhere is gonna think your ignorant anyway because you dont share their point to view.Let a racist be a racist.There gonna be anyway.Id rather someone openly hate me becuase Im brown than someone who hates me behind my back,that way we can just stay away from eachother.AS LONG AS YOU STAY WITHIN THE LAW, Let people believe what they want.ALL PEOPLE.

I dont have anything againsts muslims.When I was younger i actually started learning and wanted to be the first Mexican muslim in my family and social circle period.But a part of that was just to go against fake ass Chistians and Catholics.I also learned to many things that I didnt like about islam from other muslims that I would rather stay away and theres no point in discussing those reason because...theres just no point.Ultimatly I dont want to be a part of any orginized religion.

If you wanna give people rights,you gotta take the negative with the positive as long as you stay within the laws.

It all comes down to proving a damn point.Like Gorge Lopez said on his show. Why dont they build something there for everyone to enjoy like a food court with food from all over the world.You think Muslims would be OK wth that?

+1.

Thought the building would be closer to ground zero than news made it seem like..

huh the news exagerated?? When did they start doin that

Well not just the news, the people who were down there protesting in fury like the mosque was across the street...

Prosters were exagerating\overreacting too?!?! what is this country comming to LOL

hahaha

i dont understand.. wouldnt these gungho american dipshits WANT as many mosques in their city as possible? imo a mosque = less likely to be a bomb target by crazed fundamendalist muslims (not that they dont bomb mosques.. but less likely)

don't give a F

if we built a synagogue or a church in iraq and iran that shit would get bombed the next day but its ok for them to build one especially near where it happened comon son

That's not America, your argument is invalid.

i dont care what it is but i do have a valid point

wrong - there are already synagogues and churches built in Iraq. Iraq was a pluralistic society like the US. For example Tariq Aziz, Saddams main western envoy (or whatever he was always presenting Saddams case to the media) was a Christian. He went to a Christian church in Iraq.

If the "you" tried to build a church in Iran, that would be a different story (pretty sure "you" would have to actually invade the country first)

Doesnt matter anyway because its not the gov of Iran trying to build a mosque in Manhattan, is it?

And its not a mosque

oh yea show me a church in iran id love to see one if you can prove me wrong then good.. not that i give a fuck about religion but im just saying

This IS true but there would prob be some outrage if we tried to build a new one over a school we just blew up

bingo

There are some rather big differences between "over" and "down the street". Between "blowing up two buildings" and a "ten year battle, thousands of bombs, occupation, toppling the gov, executing the president, building up a new gov, etc, etc."

And they are not trying to build anything, its an empty building down the street.

BESIDES, where do american christian soldiers go to worship? Obviously somewhere near where some bombs got dropped on someone.

A much better comparison would be building a church down the street from the Oklahoma Federal building.







Its not the IRANIAN GOVERNMENT trying to build a mosque on top of the WTC ruins. I dont think they are even Iranians. And it was not Iranians who blew up the WTC.

have some perspective, get a grip



now, if it were Osama Binladen directing Al-Quaeda operatives to build a mosque with a window you could moon the memorial from - that would be a different story.

brothels?

According to FOX news osama is single handidly funding this building

hahaa^


Last, since Iran has no freedom of religion it should be abolished in the US?

Is that really the position you are taking??

Jesus Christ

Akiem, are you seriously trying to argue with M.Bezzle?

whos arguing?? I dont think its a big deal

he is no johnnym, and I still argue with that guy
ha

You shouldn't ;)

thank the spagetti monster for small favors

I went to a church in Iraq. There are large Christian communities in every major city in Iraq.

Ignorance is a bitch ain't it.

Thats awsome, now reread the quote and let us know when you find a church in IRAN

and yes ignorance IS a bitch but shes my bitch lol ;P

So lets be like Iran?
nice

en.m.wikipedia.org

So now we have churches in Iraq AND Iran. Everyone satisfied?

interesting

great lets be like Iran!

Oh no, then we'd all sound like this guy:

www.wwe.com

fuck fox news

+1
You may not be that bad after-all..

just cause we disagree on certain subjects dont mean we cant chill right

For sure... no bromance though..lol..

no homo you mean

They both mean the same thing..

I'd rather see a Taco Bell there than a Mosque... Why not a Gold's Gym?

Put in a memorial or a field of grass with a tree in the middle

why would you put a memorial in a building several blocks\streets away from ground 0??

I fail to see what i said about blocks away from anything...

right here



you would rather see a taco bell then a Mosque, then suggest put a memorial or grass field.....There not building the mosque at ground zero, their building it several blocks away

the title of the thread says building AT. someone else said there are already Mosques within a few blocks...

if its not at ground zero, whats the big deal? build it where ever they buy/lease the property

I think there is still alot of association/blame with Muslims and 9/11... Lots of folks haven't gotten over the event especially if they were personally affected.

A basketball court and a culinary school.

That's crazy funny how twisted the republicans got it.

How can the play basketball with all that terrorism gear on anyway?

id rather a see an abortion clinic there than a taco bell =P

+1 or combine the 2

hell yea combine the 2 that way a guy can wait and eat taco bell while the girl gets an abortion thats a really good idea

not what i was thinking but thats an even BETTER idea LOL

lol @ the abortion/taco bell.

Again, if you eat taco bell, you will have an abortion through your ass anyway. lol

its the CIIIIRRCCCLLEEEE OF LIIIIFEEEEE..............Hakuna Matata

they are real look

lh5.ggpht.com

Associating the 9/11 hijackers w/ Muslims and mosques is pretty ignorant and disrespectful to Muslims.

fwiw Muslims don't believe in drinking/partying in Miami nightclubs (as the hijackers did) and they don't believe in murder.

Great Talk.

don't care

from what i see and hear muslims wanna take over the world and have evil sharia law everywhere or maybe its just those extremists

What do you expect if an Islamic YMCA type facility in an abandoned coat store several blocks away can be transformed into a mid-evil fortress towering over the helpless 9/11 memorial, calls to prayer every time a poor family member tries to grieve. And dont forget the stinger misiles hidden in the basement.

these fools need to twist some shit to be upset about it

There are no christians, jews or anyone else trying to take over the world is there?

you sure??

lol @ bezzle

how many Muslims do you personally know [no internets]?

alot acutually

pretty much every religion believes in murder for one purpose or another

from:
How Fox Betrayed Petraeus
By FRANK RICH

Buddhists ?

Strip clubbbbbbbbbbbb!!!!!

I am going to ask you to show what you are saying to be true.
That is a pretty big and bold generalization to be making.
I think you are mistaken.

Not about people who call themselves 'Buddhist" but Buddhism.
Please show where Buddhism condones or 'believes in murder' for whatever reason.

And I just threw Buddhism out as an example btw.

i think he was using them as an example of one that DOSENT condone murder

oh youposted that LOL sory no im agreeing with you they dont thats why i said pretty much every religion and not EVERY religion

got ya

Banning a mosque at ground zero would be un American based on the principles of our country and what it was founded for. But we're so far from that now anyway, the constitution basically means nothing now.

what cracks me up is how the Tea Party starts out on some Constitutionalist shit and so easily steered into some mfers trying to ban a religious community center.

pathetic

+1 its pick and choose with them its unconstitutional when it comes to certain things but ok when its for something they stand against biggest load of hypocrisy, so sad to see....

by far the dumbest argument I have seen is when they point out that some Islamic country or other will not allow christian churches.

yes, lets be like them!

Property rights everyone! Check out what Ron Paul said about it. While it might be a inconsiderate move by the group building the mosque, if they are able to buy the property they should be able to build it there.

Not a good way to make friends, but we live by our decisions.

I doubt the reason that they originally wanted to build it there is because it is "next to (or on top of) the WTC". The reason is probably that those buildings are cheap and empty. No one was trying to make a statement or 'stab the US in the heart'.

I wonder what Ron Paul would say knowing that they arnt "building a mosque" just moving into an abandoned department store.

They started that war and attempted to take over the world along with the Germans, remember? They wouldn't end it (Kamikazes) so the US had to take drastic measures (a 2nd bomb in Nagasaki) to bring the war to an end. The Japanese are lucky their entire country wasn't obliterated.

+1

I would have dropped another to let them know we have more, and are willing to use them

To be fair though, the japanese attaked a US naval base durring a time of war, sure there were civilians there but thats kinda the chance you take being on a military base durring watrtime...when we dropped that bomb we dropped it on large civilian citys that granted had some militaryimportance and housed some troops but the civilian death toll was insane.





We DDI lol and the second bomb we dropped was already overkill

*DID

I hear he also shot 2pac

Dude your an idiot











2PAC didnt get shot it was a government coverup hes living in new orleans now and ghost writing for lil wayne

We almost dropped a nuke on China durning the Korean war.

The US has done even more devastating bombings with conventional weapons then with the two atomic bombs.

There are 600+ US military basses, maybe even near 1000 (depending how you count them) outside of US sovereignty. Plenty of them are not wanted, there are heated protests and worse.

Pretty sure that the people protesting this Islamic Community Center would tell you "you dont support the troops!" if you suggest that we close some of these imperial bases.

There is no comparison

LOL But no way, Lil waynes rhymes are clearly way better than pac ever was! hahahaha

2Pac should have used autotune, then he would have been bulletproof.

^ lol, being shot was the best career move 2pac ever made!

fixed

unfortunately i have to agree tho his stuff prior to teaming up with dre was hella better than anything on GRODT or anything that came afterwards, lyrically that is

Looks like Trump is trying to buy it. www.bloomberg.com

Isn't the mosque to be built a 1-2 blocks away from Ground Zero? There are titty bars in that area, so whats the difference?

muslim titty bars?

lol

whats the difference between a mosque and a titty bar?? Well for starters you get more for your donation at a titty bar

lol... nice

didnt the 911 hijackers go to titty bars?
makes you say hmmmmmm

The middle east has suffered through decades of western occupation, imaginary lines the west drew on their land dividing tribes and causing countless wars, raping and pillaging of natural resources, supporting oppressive regimes that cater to western needs, etc. etc. BUT 9-11 was not because they hate us for all that...its because their "evil" non-christian religion makes them want to kill us. People are dipshits. LOL

9-11 had nothing to do with islam. It would not matter what religion was in the middle east they would STILL hate us and STILL want to kill us. If it was full of christians, the people in charge over there would be using christianity to mobilize masses of stupid people into doing the same shit.

there was a prayer center inside the world trade center and Muslim people died!

Muslim people or the religion killed those people at WTC and destroyed the towers, extremists did.

Extremist do not have a religion, color, or language. They are lost souls separated from everything life has to offer.

We know many extremist carrying flags from different things, from Christian extremists, to Jewish extremists, to Muslim extremist and the list goes on.

I bet that politicians, the FBI, and the CIA sent the "pastor" in Florida a letter telling him that they would cap him in the forehead and bury him if he kept insisting on burning the quran. PROBLEM SOLVED.

there is a thing called freedom of expression, and another very different one called hatred and ignorance.

I second the comment before this one Islam did not have anything to do with 9-11. Special interest and heartless beings did. Even the bible has things written that any person with a brain finds terrifying like stoning people to death. massacres and crusades. however smart people only take the good of things, like me.

I respect the idea of Christ and like it. the idea that he did not hate anyone and that he was all heart. I however do not support crusades from any religion or ethnic group.

i don't know what the big deal is just let them build the mosque. after when it is done just build pork dinners and buffet restaurants around them....that would do the trick....lol

www.msnbc.msn.com

Now that's funny.

www.youtube.com view
Smile in my face while you curse in me in your heart.

Sounds like a lot of people I know, actually.

Yea but did they have an instruction manual?

Besides their parents? ;).

I've met some pretty outspoken muslims who don't subscribe to that passage at all... just like I've met lots of christians that don't subscribe to (insert bible verse here).

+1 see roger rabbit in the religion thread!

fock u hateful muslim, christians, mormons, jewish. FOCK YOU!

extremists mother fockers!

this idiot from the video says something like "when the muslim conquered they built mosques, to destabilize the enemy." IDIOT what did europe do in America to the indias YOU FOCK TARD MOTHER FOCKER! THEY BUILT CHURCHES TO ATTRACT THEM!

TO ME ALL YOU FROM ALL RELIGIONS ARE INSULTING ME WITH UR INTOLERANT PRACTICES AND UR ATTIRES, YOUR CHURCHES, YOUR HOUSES OF WORSHIP WHICH WORSHIP YOUR OWN IDEALS AND CALL ALL OTHERS IGNORANT AND DENY THEM FRIENDSHIP AND CARE.

A new kind of religion needs to emerge, a religion that serves the human race not a divine diety whom may or may not exist. A religion that cherishes the world and life, a religion that cares for the environment and conserving peace. SAY NO TO RELIGIONS THAT PUSH IN THEIR OWN INTEREST INSTEAD OF THE INTEREST OF THE WHOLE AS A WHOLE! FOCK YOU!

I have an Idea...Let's create...A GOLDEN CALF!
Let us all worship the golden calf **chuckle**

There are some on the forum who worship control vinyl and all things serato..

im with RR on this one.......we need golden calf control vinyl!!!!

That is really not a bad idea - a golden calf control vinyl.... That would look so hot...

better idea.. how about a golden fat dude... or just a whatever materials we can find...

buddah?

Or any other golden fat dude. people love them for some reason. been all over talk shows for chicks about how they last longer in bed and stuff... may as well make turn one into gold

I thought the thing the Imam said in the paper the other day was great.

"I walk outside of the location, i see 2 bars, a strip club, and 3 homeless people sleeping on the street at 5am, this ground doesnt seem very hallowed to me"

A stripper, homeless guy, and a bar owner didn't ram planes into TWC in the name of their religion.

...and someone else on the scene did?

Does not compute...

^+1

neither did the people building the mosque

Sounds like the begining of a joke

too bad the joke is a mob of people that dont even have an idea of why they hate islam.. they just feel the need to stand up for something and found the misleading idea that islam is a terrorist religion without realizing that the terrorists are the extremists (from any religion and not necessarily religiously tied).

I agree except I just find it hypocrtical that muslims (not all) hate Americans when they really dont know why or they hate all Americans for the actions of our polititions but apparenty thats OK. Why are Americans the only people expected to tolerate everything?Do we not have human emotions?
I mean, a muslim does something crazy and we're expected to not blame all of them(and we shouldnt) but as soon as an Idiot American does something crazy, its OK for them to hate us all and crash planes into buildings. I dont get that.

Most know exactly why they hate us, because of a handful of extremests crashing a plane into one of our buildings our country began invading their land, killing their families, bombing their citys, killing their leaders, ect ect. It goes further than that 1 idiot

^^ Your wrong. They are generalizing just like we are (yes that was a general statement). Of course we're gonna bomb them when they fly their planes into our buildings. Dont you see how its just a cycle? Stop siding with one group. Both are wrong. 2 wrongs dont are not making anything right.Were just gonna keep blaming each other and acting out but its OK if they do it but not us apparently.

If I gotta understand that they are angry at us for bombing thier citys, which I do and am also angry. Then they should understand that were angry at them for flying planes into our buildings and killing innocent people. Of course it sounds stupid because it is but at least its fare.

^^just to be clear, I didnt mean a life for a life is fare nor did I intend to justify it (although Islam supposedly preaches that). I meant the "acceptance" aspect of it.

Who are you making all this argument against? Ive never heard anyone say "NOTHING" should be done about the 9/11 attacks.



Who are you talking about? The several guys who conspired to do it, or ALL muslims?



Who is the "them" and the "they" you are talking about?

This post wins the "Leggo My Eggo" waffle award.

I see what your trying to do or at least it seems like your trying to make me out to be an ignorant guy who believes ALL MUSLIMS are guilty for 9/11 or are bad people.That's not what I'm saying and Im not gonna go through every post Ive ever made to make this clear.

I'm actually trying to speak out against generalizing. Specifically against generalizing Americans.And it was exactly this that made some wackos commit there crimes on 9/11.What did all those innocent people die for? People will say "They did it for the way Americans are to other countries". Most of those people who died on 9/11 had nothing to do with what certain Americans have done to other countries. We are individuals here and contrary to popular belief,we all don't think the same or all support wars with just any countries or any country.Regardless, we were generalized and and attacked on 9/11. Some might even argue "Why do they gotta be terrorist?They were just people who were tired of American bullshit" as a way to justify it.

It just seems that people from the rest of the world can hate all Americans for what some Americans have done and that's OK and in some countries even encouraged to hate America as a whole. But here in America forget it.The minute "some" Americans get mad for what other countries have done to us and blame them as a whole it only fuels the fire even more.Are Americans not humans? Do we not get pissed and react when people attack us? Now I believe being ignorant is sad but I still believe that people have that right to be ignorant as long as it doesn't affect anyone else. I'm not stupid enough to believe it actually works that way but I feel that's how it should be.

I personally don't like to see people from other countries burning the US flag but Im also not gonna make death threats to them or wish all of them from that country death because I know not all of the people from that country feel that way about Americans.They can hate me, just don't bother with me then.We don't have to be friends.I believe everyone has a right to there opinion,a right to there anger and a right to vent as long as they don't break any laws or kill people and YES that applies to the USA.

People always use Iraq but forget about Afghanistan which was the initial primary target of retaliation for 9/11.Not the country as a whole but a specific group of people that were involved in the support of the 9/11 attacks (Taliban/Al Quida). Innocent people died in a lot of the bombings over there and for this I can understand why innocent Afghanistan people would be pissed.But specific targets were meant to be hit by these "Certain Americans" where as "Certain Muslims" actually meant to attack innocent people.LET me be clear incase it seems like Im trying to make one look more OK than the other.There both a FUCKED UP SITUATION and sad.It ALL is. What Im saying is just like Americans are expected to NOT hate all Muslims and Afghanistan people for what a specific group of them have done, I just believe the same should apply to them but it just doesn't seem that way. I know for a fact that there are a lot of Muslims that preach against violence and against hating America as a whole but it doesn't appear to be the majority.I'm sure and actually hoping someone will tell me I'm wrong.

Its pointless even talking about it. I already know only certain sentences or words will be quoted rather than taking in everything as a whole.So whatever.

Josh the thing is those people who are preaching peace love & unity the muslim way are not gonna sell papers, books, magazines, or movie tickest, its the fuck you amerca flag burning plane flying (well u get my drift) so u never get to hear about the normal average joe.

I am not a muslim myself, but I have a few friends that are into the muslim faith (prob about 5-6) And mostly they love america just like I do. They watch your (America's) tv shows movies, dj with your music & are just as much into american culture as the rest.
Just because the American government want the support of the American people In the War on OIl, doont get hoodwinked. This war is about oil.

& That is one of the reasons some muslims do hate on USA because you have been raping their country of natual assets for decades.

However that isnt usually mentioned. Its just a, well they hates us, why?

this is apart from all the bombings & innocents killed to slake americas thirst for oiil!
& That is prtty much the answer to your question, well i think so.

If im wrong please feel free to tell me. (not that yall need an invite)

Also i never quoted you once, took your words out of context etc etc. So lets try to keep it civil so it dont end up as a pissing contest.

Also you will find that we are very much so hated around the world too! Ask the french what they think of england? (pretty much a generaliseation again, because i have french homies that live here in london, but you get what im trying to say)
We are hated due to the atrocities the Empire comitted throughout the globe. I think U guys have had 1st hand dealings with that right? lol

I mean even our next door neighbours hate us, Ask someone from scotland what they think of someone from london. You'd be surprised @ how hatefull some of the responses are.

Sucess breads envy, envy leads to hate. (no yoda)

I think they should build it...It's only fair.

I mean, There are plenty of Churches scattered throughout the arab nations. As a country, we should be equally supportive.

& I agree, the best way to a world wide peace is an equal understanding.

The entire "retaliation" was ridiculous, we as a country sanctioned professional attacks against another country because a rouge nonsanctioned group that we pretty much trained and supplied did some dumb shit, if this logic was acceptable we should have bombed new york when Timothy McVeigh pulled off the oklahoma city bombing

wasnt he a hardcore christian?

You know what your right....we should have bombed new york and any other countries harboing christians

two words: Special Interest

Even us Americans know about the whole "Oil" thing.I dont know why people think we're so blinded.Trust,we know and don't all support invading anyone else for their oil including myself, so though Im an American, that does 't mean "I" took anything from anyone. Truth is its not a matter of faith,culture or country, its about CLASS, as in Rich and poor. All though I dont believe our poorest nieghborhoods compare with Iraqs (for example) that doest mean the Rich give a shit anymore about our peope here in the US. All those who are angry with the US need to look at themselves and hold their own politicians accountable.Make no mistake,Someone over there is making money off the oil.Us here in the States are not definitly not getting it for free considering the cost of tax payers money and human lives.So where is the oil "we" went for?Im still paying at the pump.If "I" went to steal something,why am "I" paying? Its about the buisnessmen, not the individual citizen. And the Middle East has there own buisness men.Why do some of them guys have these crazy palaces while other people are being starved.There own government conspire against there own people just like People belives US government do to us.Its the regular people who end up hating eachother while the Higher-ups are laughing all the way to the bank.

I dont see how I havnt kept things cival here.I havnt named called anyone.Were just having a simple conversation as far as Im concerned.

Rather than waist anymore time, Ill put it in the form of a question(s).
Is it more OK to blame one country as a whole than it is to blame another country as a whole for the cause of some fucked up shit? Thats all I really want to know because what it seems that people are suggesting is this: Because of the messed up stuff an Extreamist Terrorist group of Americans have done to a muslim country, every muslim who chooses to has a right to hate "me" idividualy for what my people have done. But when a Extreamist Terrorist group of Muslims does some messsed up stuff, we have no right to be angry at all.Just take it because after all, we started it.Even though "I" specificaly didnt start anything nor did I support it, "I" still deserve to die and should just shut up.

Is that about right?

Personally i disagree, i dont think their hatred of of comes from an envy of our lifestyle, i think it comes from their strong beliefs which teach them that basically that certian things are morally wrong, coincidentially those things are the things that make america a great country. For example in their culture women are 2nd class citizens who are to hide their face and walk behind their man and if they deviate from this you can pretty much kill em, like those chicks who got stoned (no methodman) for talking to a boy outside their family, look at how drastic that is from our culture where the less a woman wears the more of a pedastal we put her on and we take all our attn to focus on celebs deviencies. When you live in a societey where all your have is your faith and your faith tells you a certian lifestyle is wrong and theres a country that revolves around that people are going to tend to think poorly of you and your people. And as far as generialization i gaurentee YOU as an individual do plenty that their cultrue would deem as horrible.




Its not because we started it its because we are supposed to be a world leader, a superpower, the country with the american dream and a great manner of life. Were supposed to be better than that. Us getting pissed and retaliating because a poor muslim country is angry and burning our flags is the equilivant of obama showing up to random smuck who posts that hes a terrorist on the internet and kicking the shit out of him for it

Damn so basicaly we're just FUCKED. A catch 22. Hated if we do and hated when we don't.So I guess thats it. We deserve to be hated and attacked because we live a certain way that others disagree with at the same time we have to bite our toungues and put up with everyone elses bullshit.

I actually believe also its more of a religious thing than anything else so politics is just an excuse to fuel the fire really.
Who cares about the reasons my fellow Americans. Our role is to grin and bare the bullshit of rest of the world and our own government.

I think its about money and strategic advantage more than anything else.

Then comes the extremists and the power they posses to gather masses and move them in favor of things that would much harder to achieve if it wasn't for a "purpose higher than themselves". Religion as well as patriotism are great ways to achieve the support os many.

patriotism and relgion might not be bad at all, but when they are uswed to decieve and abuse then they become a problem. such as "taxation without representation" in which the excuse of ownage to the "motherland" was supposed to be enough excuse to be taxed without a voice.. as ex...

I think the key is communication. If the world can incresingly blur the language line and grow a very sturdy tolerance and understanding line towards other customs, I believe we are in the right track.

Let's not forget; the only images we see in the news of muslims (for the most part) are the "bad guys". There are plenty of Muslims that actually -don't- hate America.

So when you say:



Sure, you have the right, but it certainly doesn't make you any smarter or more enlightened than they are. It -does- make you a bigot. It's the equivalent of only seeing images of black people on TV robbing stores because "whitey kept them down" and then hating/being wary of all black people as a result.

Who wants to consciously choose to be a bigot? The cycle has to stop somewhere; I'm starting with me.

(cue MJ's "Man In The Mirror"")

^+1

Being angry is NOT being a bigot. Its a natural human emotion that no one chooses to feel but something that we cannot help, however, I do believe what makes you a bigot is how you use that anger and if you use it negativly and allow it to break you down and in turn try to break others down.
Religous thinking and Athiest thinking may make me angry at times because I am not for ANY group that believes what they believe is the absolute TRUTH.That doesnt mean I deny science or that I dont believe in a higher power. What seperates me is that I do not wish anyone death or pain becuase they practice there religion or choose (or not choose) the way they live.If religion helps you to be a good person then Im all for that as long as you practice what you preach and don't bother me with it. But even if you don't, I still will not "hate" you.I just would not have anything to do with you.All I ask for is the same respect.I dont see how that isn't reasonable.

How about agnostics josh? By definition alone its impossible for us to be wrong!

thats why being an agnostic is the way to go

LOL THOSE WERE MY EXACT WORDS FROM THE OTHER THREAD..COPYWRITE COPYWRITE!!!!

Agreed... and isn't that what this thread is about? People being angry at (and placing restrictions on) an entire religion instead of the few people (also bigots) who used it as a banner for their heinous acts?

By the way, when I say "you" I don't mean you personally, Josh; I mean anyone who allows their anger to color their actions towards a specific race/color/creed/religion.

honestly i dont even know what were talking about anymore, this conversations jumped so many tracks and incorporated so many topics that im not even sure what were arguing about....can we get a reset and a head check please??

Going back to the beginning of this thread lets look at this logically.....would anyone be upset if they built a christian church near the site of the oklahoma city bombing

It's funny to read such statements from you. The guy who loves to discuss for the sake of discussing, even if it means turning 180° and flipping upside down. lo.

Thought I am the only one who noticed Bezzle argues just for the sake of...

Im a man who admits he knows nothing and sees both sides to every situation. I just happen to take joy in pointing out the logical flaws in an argument and stimulating debate. Its fun to make people think.

Fixed

:P

ill take it, thats rather enjoyable as well LOL.

Where the hell do you know the word "logical" from? Dictionary?

Going back to the beginning of this thread lets look at this logically.....would anyone be upset if they built a christian church near the site of the oklahoma city bombing


anyone wanna crack out an answer on this

fortune cookie

hahaha ur right they were indeed!

Im not trying to 'do' anything, I am just asking you to clarify what you are saying. If you dont want to fine.





I wouldnt really call that "generalizing". Not that I understand exactly what those 19 hijackers and OBL where each thinking. But wouldnt that make ANY attack on ANY country a "generalization"? I dont see any reason for looking at it that way. Most military operations consider the death of innocent people and call it 'collateral damage'.

And Ive never heard anyone say that the 9/11 attack was not terrorism. I have heard it 'justified' (as you call it) by saying it was a retaliation for "American Bullshit".

I wouldnt call it "justified" but I certainly do not believe it would have happened if the US was not doing XYZ (going along with the official story of course)



So how should you protest if an 'American Bomb' is dropped on your house and kills your wife and kids? Should you file a FOI with the Pentagon requesting the identification of the guy who actually pulled the trigger on the bomb - get the guys name and photo - burn it and yell "Death to Lt. Jacob Smith in particular!"???

Maybe the guy should yell "Death to the Americans - but not to the ones who dont think they should have invaded my country, just the other ones!!!"

Or maybe the guy should yell "Death to the Americans, but only the ones who pay taxes that paid for the bomb that got dropped on my wife and kids, not the other ones that dont pay any taxes like if you are on welfare or some shit!!!!"

How about the guy should yell "Death to the Americans but only the ones who want to pay for high energy prices because if this part of the world were allowed to stabilize our leaders would demand much more for our natural recourses!!!"

Blaming all Muslims for 9/11 is not the same as blaming the US for the bombs it drops. 9/11 was carried by 30 some guys, a tiny cult 500 members or whatever.

The United States is a country, its foreign policy is (suposed) to be decided by its elected officials and chosen by it citizens. The weapons being used to kill these people have American flags on them, they are paid for with our tax dollars, they are guided by us soldiers, and the decision to use them was made officials elected by 'us'. There is a 'chain of command' there.

Do all muslims pay taxes to OBL? Was he elected? OBL was even kicked out his family and his citizenship revoked. There is no 'chain of command'



What country has attacked the United States since the start of WW2?

Did the nation of Afghanistan attack the US?
No it did not.
Did the Taliban ruling regiem attack the US?
No it did not.
Did Al-Queda attack the US?
yes



Again, who thinks that "nothing" should have been done about 9/11? Even people who believe it was inevitable, or even a justified retaliation for what the US has done in the Middle East still believe Al-Qaeda should be held responsible.



I think what you are not getting is that it is The United States military that is attacking these people. The weapons being used against them have that US flag on it. Why would you expect them to make some type of differentiation between individual people in the US? How could they?

The United States is a democratic country, We The People choose our leaders (officially its stated), arnt WE to blame for what OUR country does?

Its not some rouge militia group from the caves of Montana dropping bombs over there.

take some responsibility




So then why was the country of Afghanistan invaded? Why didnt the US send special forces armed to fight the guerilla militia type force that Al-Qaeda is suposed to be? Why is the US instead invading, removing the government and trying to institute a new government? Especially when Al-Qaeda is probably in Pakistan or even further away. Al-Qaeda is extra-national, its not tied to any one nation most of its fighters were not even Afghan. And then Iraq, and how about Iran? The point is that the US is actually attacking whole countries and overthrowing whole governments. There was no Al-Qaeda in Iraq until the US invaded.

Did the US really invade these countries because of Al-Qaeda? I doubt it.

Mater of fact the people who became the 'Bush Administration' were already trying to get Clinton to invade Iraq. They wanted to take control of the Mid East.

check out the Project for a New American Century




Or maybe Al-Qaeda was only trying to hit "certain people" in those buildings. Maybe they were only trying to hit the buildings and maybe even tried to hit less people by doing it in the morning before the buildings were full of people.

But I have thought a lot about it. I was at the Brooklyn Bridge that day. I was concerned about what would happen next. I went straight home, got my gun, and packed a bag because I new my well being even life might have depended on getting out of Brooklyn. The reason is that I expected the possibilities of more attacks. Truck bombs or more planes taking out the phone system or worse the power grid would have caused a maximum amount of chaos. It would have been hell. The point is that it could have been a whole lot worse. They could have killed more people. I dont think they were trying to kill as many people as possible - it was more of a tactical symbolic attack - the people were 'collateral' (not excusing it jic)

On the other hand the US may not be targeting individual civilian people (might as well considering the death tolls) But the US has attacked and occupied entire nations (not just the 'bad apples')

you are comparing two different things as if they are mirror equals - they are not



Who is expecting Americans not to hate all muslims? Why would Americans hate all muslims?

I think what you are missing is that The United States of America, the country did in fact attack two other countries. The flags on those bombs, planes, ships, is an American Flag. They were paid for by american tax payers.

The 9/11 attacks were not carried out by the nations of Iraq or Afghanistan. They were not even carried out by citizens of those countries. The hijackers were mostly Saudis hiding and training in Afghanistan. Al-Qaeda was a tiny little extremist militia supposedly fallowing a small sect that many Muslim scholars have concluded to be heresy and not even part of Islam.

So when people say "the attacked us" you are right, they should know who they are.

which is why I asked you, when you say "they" who are you talking about?



no, I only responded to what I thought was relavent, this time I answered every question and point, and snipped nothing.


BUT


you did not answer my questions:

Who are you making all this argument against? Ive never heard anyone say "NOTHING" should be done about the 9/11 attacks.



Who are you talking about? The several guys who conspired to do it, or ALL muslims?



Who is the "them" and the "they" you are talking about?


I asked these questions because they sound exactly like the argument people use against the so called "Ground Zero Mosque"


So was it the "The Muslims" who blew up the WTC, or was it Al-Qaeda?
they are two very different things

Was it the United States who invaded Iraq and Afghanistan (along with a coalition), or was it each individual soldier?

It is a messed up situation. I dont like to see this. How do almost 1.5 million people die in AF and Iraq?
www.google.com

this map shows places of worship not related to islam near WTC. Im sure thats just a few of the actual number, I just wont hunt them all down and map them. these are the easy to find ones.

img189.imageshack.us

^ i enjoty watching akeim post, he usually sums up the point im trying to make alot better than i do

img210.imageshack.us

www.thedailyshow.com

Im not missing anything AKIEM, everything your trying to explain to me is something I already clearly understand.I don't know why you keep asking if Im referring to ALL Muslims or a specific group of Muslims.Maybe your just trying to complicate things.I don't know but you seem smart enough and I think you know exactly which points I am referring to Muslims as a whole or the specific terrorist group.Perhaps I'm wrong in assuming this and will try to be more clear about this in the future. You are the one who is missing what I am trying to say and I have already almost lost hope that we will get anywhere with this.There is no way I can be more clear.

I am NOT against the building of a Mosque nor would I waist my time burning a Quron.I am not against Islam,I am against ALL religions PERIOD.We wouldn't be having this discussion if it wasn't for religion.But I dont hate anyone specifically because of what they choose to believe
I think we both agree that the "Innocent" people of any country,culture or race that have suffered because of the "terrorist" of another country,culture or race have the full right to be angry.But where we do not seem to agree is that you believe USA is exempt to this and that people can in fact be angry at the entire people of the USA.Am I wrong?

For example, I DO NOT hate White people as a whole for the way specific White people have treated me in my life just because I'm Brown and Mexican American.And YES, I have been through some bullshit which is another story for another time.I also DO NOT hate White people as a whole for what Certain white people have done to my family in the past.I can only speak for my Nationality as it seems that there are people of my Nationality (and other Nationality's) who think it's perfectly OK to hate on White people as a whole for what CERTAIN White people have done. It's Reverse Racism is what it is and doesn't change ANYTHING that has already happened.I can understand why there are so many White people upset about this because they are not to blame for what there ancestors have done or other people who happen to share there color.

On 2nd thought, maybe I am missing a couple of things, so I'll just ask you some questions and perhaps you can enlighten us.

1.You say that there are American flags on a bomb therefore ALL Americans should be held responsible.OK. So if a Quron is found at the sight of a bombing by a radical muslim (somehow surviving the blast)should we blame ALL Muslims? Shouldn't your answer apply to both sides?

2.Did every single American vote for President Bush (or any politician)? Did everyone vote period that were in the WTC or in the country as a whole?

3.Do we force Americans to join the military or is it done out of Free Will?

4. Do you really believe every American supports the invasion of a country?

5.Regardless of the unemployment rate, do you still insist that EVERY AMERICAN is paying taxes? Does any honest legal hard working American have a choice whether or not to pay taxes? And do American citizens have a choice as to how and where those tax dollars are spent?

6.Did the citizens of the USA vote to invade Iraq or Afghanistan?

7.You believe Revenge is the key to peace on this planet? Note:I think we could agree that not starting shit in the first place is ideal.I could be wrong though.

8. Last but not least: Do you believe that Americans as a whole are sub-human and heartless infidels and that anyone who moves here from other countries to live and work also become sub-human heartless infidels?

You are wrong there, noone has the right to be angry at ANYONE except terrorists for terrorists actions (unless there government sponsored terrorists actions then yuo can be mad at the country)

wait a second, now you are the one snipping everything

and you did not answer any of my questions



You could have just answered my questions when I asked. No big deal.




I believe if a person does something wrong you have the right to be upset at that person. If a group of people do something wrong you have the right to be upset at that group. If someone does something wrong to a group of people, that group has the right to be upset.



I am not going to respond to the above because it opens a whole new can of worms. And no need for the example.



Well I will answer you (even though you did not answer any of my questions)



No

And thats not what I said.

I asked the question: If an US bomb drops on your house who should you be upset at? For some reason you seem to think you should only be upset at the actual guy dropping the bomb (I guess if its a drone you shouldnt even be upset because 'its not a person who did it, its a robot'.



No. I did not vote in those elections.

But are you saying if a bomb drops on your house you should only be mad at the people who voted for Bush (or Obama because he is doing it too)



It is out of free will there is no compulsory service (but I think some people are 'tricked' into joining because of financial situations, false promises, and propaganda)



No. I was not in favor of ether invasion and occupation.



Every American does have a choice about paying taxes. You might end up in jail trying not to, but it is still a choice. Also consider your participation in the economy as a whole.

American citizens choose how tax dollars are spent by electing officials to administer the spending. If officials do not do as the voters want they are voted out. If there is a conspiracy to do other then the will of the people, it is still the peoples responsibility to discover the conspiracy.



Was that proposition on the bill? I might have voted if it was.

The people elected a president who pushed for and then administered the invasions. And congress funded them. This president is also administering them, and this congress is also funding them.



No, I do not know what the key to peace on the planet is. But I am sure it is not 'revenge'. (I dont even know why you ask the question)

If I were to guess at what would bring world peace. Maybe if everyone fallowed the Golden Rule "Treat your fellow the way you would like to be treated" (if not better)



no.
(LOL - Ive never been asked that before!)
I think I understand the point you are trying to make, but you are going to have to ask it differently to get the response maybe you are after.

I dont believe in or know what a 'sub-human' is.

There are a lot of selfless, the oposite of 'heartless' people in America

and I myself am an 'infidel'

Why no?

Exactly

I answered your question with a whole response.What more do you want?

You asked:



I responded with:


Moving on.....
You posted:

Actually you are the one that seems to think this exact same thing except that only the People of the United States should live by this but the People of Islamic Faith are exempt.

To answer your question specifically about the bomb landing in my house, after this whole thread, I'm not sure as an American anymore if I even have a right to be upset at anyone just because I am American.Going by your logic, I guess I should be mad at myself because somehow I asked for it or caused it without actually causing it.



Hmmmmm.... this could explain a LOT , but OK, lets leave that for another time.

I just see a lot of hypocrisy going on in your point of view. We clearly are not going to get anywhere with this.You believe strongly the way you do and I believe strongly the way I do.It is exactly this stubbornness that is the cause of WAR and I'm a man of peace so to continue with this any further would only be contradicting that.
I don't know if you were thinking it but can appreciate you not jumping to name calling like a lot of other guys do over a simple debate.

So in conclusion, I've posted this before and I'll post it again. This, I believe sadly, is the only answer to peace in this world:www.youtube.com view

Because there is not two sides.

Islam is a religion, the United States is a country, they are not two sides of the same coin.

The United States is a nation state. All of its citizens pay taxes or participate in the economy which funds the military. All of its citizens benefit (or have the opportunity to benefit) from its social, economic and political recourses. All of its of its citizens have the protection of its laws and the right participate in the political process. And even if there is a conspiratorial secret government running everything - it is still the citizens responsibility to expose it and control what the state does. The United States is a social political economic system that sits on a particular piece of land. (we can talk about opting out or trying to change the system etc. but...)

On the other hand Islam is a religion. It is a belief system, not a power structure. All of what I said above about the United States does not apply to Islam. It also does not apply to Christianity or any religion. Religions are belief systems not political and economic states bound by borders (even if some believers want them to be).

Take several Americans standing next to each other. Lets say they hate each other. One is a Black Panther, the other is a Nazi Skinhead, and the other is a Millitent Jew. These people are still bound by various contracts. Portions of their monies are pooled together - social security and taxes. They have the same access to the political power structure. They have the same access to the state controlled and maintained infrastructure, utilities and natural recourses. They have the same protection and aid from the US government when traveling abroad. It does not matter what these three people believe, or even if they hate each other - they are still bound and part of the same system.

So when a bomb with a US flag drops on a guys family - it was payed for in part by these three, the decision to do so was made by a political process these three are a part of, and to protect interests that these three partake in.

But now take several Muslims. You might have a Saudi, a Somali and a Persian. One might even be a citizen of the US to put a twist on it. They might hate each other for various reason, maybe even religious reasons. But none of the things mentioned above that bind the Americans will necessarily bind these Muslims together. None of their monies is pooled, they dont have the same access to the same political system, and they dont have the same accesses to the same state administered resources. What binds them is simply a belief (which they may violently disagree about).

So when a bomb with an "Islamic Flag" (or in the case of 9/11 one of the hijackers pasport miraculously survives and one of their suitcases does not make it on the flight and there is a Quran in it) So when a bomb with an "Islamic Flag" drops on an American town not ALL Muslims helped pay for it, or were part of a political process that made the decision, or would even agree that the attacker had the theological authority to do so. Further, OBL is a radical far from mainstream heretic who was kicked out his family and citizenship revoked. His cult believes in playing word games with his religion in order to justify his criminal activities. This is far from a mainstream moderate muslim view. So it was not Islam attacking the US, any more then if a skinhead burns a synagogue, its an act of Christianity.

The above covers the argument that the guy burning an American flag hates ALL Americans, each and every single one down to the little Arab American Muslim baby - WE should take offense.

But more likely the guy burning the American flag has a problem with the nation of The United States, and probably not each of its citizens (guess we would have to ask him). The flag, although it my represent each citizen, is more accurately a national symbol and represents the state. Having a hatred for the state is different from having a hatred of the people who happen to be its citizens.

And you have in this country the right to free expression wich does include the right to burn the American flag. And people do. But when they do are they calling for their own personal deaths? Are they attacking and insulting themselves? (maybe a nutcase, you would have to ask him) but probably not. These Americans who burn the American flag are protesting the State, not each and every individual person.

So if there really is two sides, the flip side to a guy protesting his family being killed by an American bomb who burns a flag is an American protesting and burning the flag of Al'Qaeda for destroying the WTC.

(and we wonder how apprehending the international criminal Osama Binladen turned into attacking Iraq and the "Axis of Evil" which includes N. Korea) - smh





I guess I am dumb then!

We are talking about people upset and burning American flags. The presumption is that these people are NOT members of Al-Qaeda. The presumption is that these people are just Muslims. So when you say "they" should not be upset for a 9/11 retaliation, thats what happens when "you" blow up our building - at the least you are not being CLEAR.

This is why I asked questions





cmon man. I asked if a ***US*** bomb dropped on your home.... If it is a US bomb then obviously YOU would not be an American in such a hypothetical situation.

you did not understand the question

let me try again:

If any country (meaning a real nation state, not some rouge element) drops a bomb on your house who should you be upset at?
(please answer the question)







But it doesnt explain anything, because I did not explain anything. If you want an explanation start a new thread. Or you will have to settle for my opinion - you are right in not being upset at each individual white person for what other white people have done.



The hypocrisy that you see in my point of view comes from you equating various things that are not equal. You are trying to equate whole nations with individual people, and you are trying to equate religions with modern nations states. If you stopped equating those things, and trying to see them as the oposites that they are not then you would no longer see the hypocrisy in what I am saying.

Why would I call you any names?

Ghandi was stubborn.



Thats pretty dramatic, but I dont see what it has to do with the discussion.


Let me conclude with: What I had always said and still believe the same - 2001 The United States should have collected as much data about Al-Qaeda and the location of its leadership. Then attacked with a highly trained agile anti-gorilla type force to eliminate the leadership and neutralize the organization. The ONLY other people who should have been dealt with should have been anyone trying to interfere with the operation. This should have been done even without a coalition or UN sanction, and the whole world would have backed the US. BUT instead the US bombs everything, drops in raw troops and tries to reshape the whole country. And then attacks another country on the most flimsy of incorrect evidence (if not lies) which leads to Al-Qaeda actually sprouting in that country and others. The United States (at least that administration) had interests OTHER then hunting down Al-Qaeda. They wanted to remake that part of the world. The retaliation for 9/11 should have been to destroy Al-Qaeda not invade and occupy two countries. It should have been an 'operation' not two protracted wars. Not creating a 'home land' police state. Not reacting to some religious view. Not by threatening to use nuclear weapons. Not threatening Iran and N. Korea. etc. <------ And that is what the fucking problem is today.

I find it funny how you pick and choose what does and what doesn't have to do with this discussion.But that's your OPINION you are entitled to.


Islam is not only a religious belief but can also be a political ideaology with it's own set of laws for some countries as a whole.... Shariah law.



I would be mad at the government of that country but would not wish death on all it's citizens individually because I would understand that These decisions were not made by the people themselves and not all of them choose the politicians that are in office or have any control on how their tax dollars are spent nor would I waist my time burning there flag for 1) I would be dead to even do that if a bomb hit me 2) I would definitely not fly planes into there buildings killing innocent people. 3) It would only make things worse to continue the cycle of violence.Even though I would be retaliating for what they did, they would only retaliate for what I did claiming that my act was worse than their original attack justifying an even greater attack therefore keeping the cycle of violence.

I definitely agree with you about sending special forces to take out the actual people behind the problem however, I'm sure that being America, it still wouldn't be justified or excepted because people look for any reason to hate us (NOT 100% ALL PEOPLE)

I understand what you are saying about a Country and a Religion being 2 different things.By definition perhaps but Ultimately both are Man Made systems with certain rules and YES laws.The real difference is that people do not choose where they are born but they do have a choice what they believe as far as religion goes so that itself may make it even worse. I didn't choose to be born in America, no matter if I move out of the country or even joined the Taliban myself like John Walker Lindh, you would still be considered AMERICAN because of where you were born. Religious beliefs are ultimately a CHOICE no matter where you are from.As an Adult, you do have this choice.

A religious group is just as much a group as anything else, be it a blood family,or an entire country except just like a street gang, you have a choice to be part of it or not.

You are correct in saying that Americans should uncover conspiracies and protest any wrong doing by the government especially when we know the governments action will UNFAIRLY reflect on us citizens and I believe that is what the majority is trying to do. But equally, all Good Muslims should do the same and protest the radical portion of Muslims and try to teach them better to not make bad choices that would UNFAIRLY reflect on them as a whole.Everyone needs to take responsibility here.Everyone if we are to have peace.

But I think the point is that both represent a group of people. Same rules for everyone, right?

Not at all there is a different kind of relationship between say a group of people who have sworn a selfless unified blood oath to die for one another, and another group of people with the same color hair. Two groups of people, different or no relationship between the members. You can assume somethings about a member of the blood oath group bassed on the action of other members that you simply can not assume about the member of the same color hair group. There is no real connection between them.

You can assume that people of the same religion share some (but sometimes violently apposed) views of God. You can not make the same assumptions about people who live in the same country.

You can assume that people of the same country have a shared interest in the condition of the national economy. While you cant assume that there is even an economic relationship between people of the same religion.

So if you are talking about "muslims" and say "they" you are making a bigoted statement unless it is a theological statement concerning the shared religion. If you try to make a political statement about "they muslims" you will be in error.

And if you are talking about "americans" and say "they" you are making an incorrect assumption if you are making a theological statement. But if you are making a political statement about "they americans" you may be accurate. Not about each and every single american, but about the americans as a political bloc, or a an economic bloc.

context

So when you say "they muslims" should not be burning a flag, the statement is political not theological. What one muslim does should not politically reflect on some other muslim on the other side of the planet, there is no political connection. same for any religion.

You have to judge groups by what the group relationship is. Otherwise we could assume that vegetarians all hate Jews because Hitler was a vegetarian.

I dont know what you are talking about




Let me stop you here. You would be mad at that country, isnt a symbol of that country its national flag? If you were actually mad enough to (tho you wouldnt) to burn that flag, if you did does it actually mean that you are mad at every single citizen of that country? Cant you just be mad at the country but not every single person in that country?

If you are mad at that country does it mean that you are mad at every single person in that country?

Does a person in that country have to say "hey man, dont be mad at me personally"?








but if you did decide to waste your time burning the flag it wouldnt actually mean that you want to murder each and every citizen of that country - correct? You could actually burn that flag and NOT be wishing death on each and every single person in that country - right?




1) that would be an obvious given 2) which is quite a bit different then just burning a flag 3) well if someone dropped a bomb on my house or was trying to kill me I would do more then burn a flag - I would defend myself by whatever means available.





After 9/11 even Fidel Castro pledged to help the recovery effort. Almost every single nation on the planet was backing the US, it was quite amazing to see. If the US would have killed Bin Ladin the whole world would have been happy about it. Who would have called it 'unjustified'? no one.

You can name pretty much any 'bad guy' out there - and even they sided with the US on getting Bin Laden. The Russians, the Chinese, the Saudis, Iranians, Chavez, Castro, Saddam, Khadafi, they all said "go get that motherfucker" No one would have said shit if they sent a strike force to kill that guy.

The reason "everyone is mad at the US is because" they invaded two entire countries instead of catching Bin Laden. People hate the US for actual real reasons, they dont need to be looked for.

But we agree then, that people were attacked that should not have been attacked.



well I see a lot more differences then that.

But since they are two different things then there is not a "both sides"




I completely disagree for too many reasons.



I believe that the majority is doing and has done nothing to stop any 'cycle of violence' and instead profits from it - or it would not be happening.



I dont see why the actions of one muslim should reflect on another, especially if they are of different denominations, citizens of different countries, etc etc.

Should a Catholic have to explain why a Protestant on the other side of the planet sets off a bomb?

Should the actions of some Mexican drug lord in the news somehow reflect on YOU? I dont think so.


But I think its pretty ironic that the people trying to open this muslim community center down the street from wtc are 'big time moderate muslims'. As a meter of fact this guy says that United States laws are "Sharia Compliant"

Yes, I understand, but that's not the point here.

It all boils down to: Regardless which group you belong to, regardless of the reasons... the same set of rules apply to you as well as me. Right?

So if you belong to group X - then I will judge you based on the same rules/criterias as if you had belonged to group Y.

Clearly there is no right or wrong here.Its just a matter of opinion so I can see why everyone else stopped posting in this thread by now,lol. I mean who are YOU to declare whether something is a GROUP or not?And YES, Who am I to officialy declare the same thing? Theres no convincing you and theres definitly no convincing me.

I think (or hope its clear) that I am a man of peace so are you with me or are you with the terrorist?

On another note, I had to share something a friend posted on facebook that I found ammussing: Regarding themosque near ground zero, I say let them build it. But across thestreet, we should put a topless bar, called "You Mecca Me Hot". Next tothat, a gay bar called "The Turban Cowboy" and next to that, a pork-ribrestaurant called "Iraq O' Ribs"? And a check cashing center......called..."Iran out of mon...ey" ...Lets see, who's really tolerant!Repost if you agree!

sure absolutely

But if group X does something horrible, why should group Y have to answer for it?

"..they should understand that were angry at them for flying planes into our buildings and killing innocent people."

Why should Muslims have "understand" when it was Al-Qaeda who did it?

I think I missed the point.

I thought when you said:


you meant that the same rules do not apply to different groups of people (and their individuals).

Because they are the same RELIGION.

Why should Americans understand when it was the Government that did it?"

Everyone needs to be accountable



Your trying to break down what a group is and what a group is not by trying to separate a Country and a Religion.Yes, they are 2 different thing but by definition, they both are GROUPS.

Group:
a : a number of individuals assembled together or HAVING SOME UNIFYING RELATIONSHIP.

How can you say this does not apply to both The United States and to Islam?

www.merriam-webster.com

Theres a difference though, the terrorists who flew the planes into buildings werent the leaders of their group (if your judging by religion) they were just people who had a plan and did it, our government it our elected REPRESENTITIVES, their job IS to represent our people and our country. The actions and decessions they make are to reflect the will of the people they govern. For the situation to be equal the command for the terrorists would need to come from a top religious leader

Are you just trying to win the argument or do you really not see the difference between a country and a religion???

Sure if they are the same kind of groups. Basically without getting deeper into it we should judge all countries by the same standards (maybe taking into account size and histories etc) But generally speaking all countries should be measured by the same standards. Whats wrong for country A to do should also be wrong for country B to do.

And we should also judge religions the same way. If one religion believes that there is a man with a magic wand floating in the sky - then I will call it silly, just the same as if another religion believes the same thing.

But there is that difference. A country is a command system that includes a foreign policy, an environmental policy, there is a formal structure to what its activities are. That is not the same with a religion. A religion is bound together by a set of beliefs, not a set of policies that manifest in actions.

The 9/11 hijackers obviously believed that suicide and killing innocent people is fine with Allah. But that is not true of all Muslims. Most sects or schools of Islam believe that suicide is a grave sin and that killing an innocent person is as evil as killing "all humanity". These concepts are in diametric opposition even if they are people of the same religion.

Take "white supremacy". There are people who believe that the "white race" is superior to all others. They use this belief to justify their evil actions. But should we judge each "white person" by the actions of these extremest? Isnt there a group of people called "white people"? Do "white people" constitute a socio/political/economic bloc and command structure the way a country does? no.

Now if White Supremacists took control of an entire nation and began doing evil things to their fellow human beings. Then we could judge that nation by its actions. And we did when the Nazis took control of Germany. Before the Nazis had control of Germany the problem was not with Germany, the problem was with the Nazis. And the problem is still with the Nazis (because they are racists). If they form their National Socialist Party, we have a problem with that party, that command structure. But does that mean we have a problem with all Nationalists? Does nationalism equal racism? Does that mean that we have a problem with all socialists? Are all socialists racist? Some are, but most socialists are in diametric opposition to racism. Just like some Muslims believe in suicidal terrorism, most dont.



(believe it or not I heard a Vietnamese woman talking to a Mexican guy about "we" need to keep our restaurants clean and stick together because people look at "us" like xyz... The "us" she was talking about was (kid you not) "people with straight black hair". Now that sounds rather ridiculous but it illustrates a point. Should we look at the 9/11 hijackers and say "those damn straight black hair people"!!! And why shouldnt we?

I am absolutely sure that there are some extreme lesbian feminists out there who look at it as another example of "those evil MEN!" 'The world would be a much better place if we just killed all the male babies and reproduced at a sperm banks or by cloning.' Al-Qaeda was obviously an organization of extreme male bravado, machismo, and testosteron. You gotta have some big nuts to pull that shit off. So should all males (even the masculine gays) be held accountable? Wasnt it an action of our group? Should men apologize to women for 9/11. Should men feel guilty because of this act of bravado? Should men feel shame for being masculine? Should men have to understand the anger of these women? Should we all just turn gay?

They were also all MEN. Should all men feel guilty about 9/11?

They also all had black hair. Should all black hair people answer for 9/11?

They were also all in their 20s. Should all 20 year olds, feel guilt? Those damn generation Y kids!



Really? So now ANY GROUP is guilty? Anyone who belongs to a group is guilty?

Should all men feel guilty for what this group of men did?
(please answer the question)

OHHHHHH i see where your going with this...good angle and i agree










































FUCK PAULY D HES RESPONSIBLE FOR BRINGIN DOWN THE TOWERS!@!!!

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More than half of your message contains capital letters. To many forum users this means you are SHOUTING your message, and is considered bad forum etiquette. Please consider editing your message so that there are fewer capital letters.

LOL

Are you just trying to win the argument or do you not see the simularities between a country and a religion?

Actually YES, all men should feel guilty for allowing hate and anger to get the best of them leading to the distruction of this world. Starting stupid shit in the first place and then feeling the need to retaliate believing that it will actually change anything for the better.YES we should all feel guilty and I feel ashamed and dissapointed that there are MEN willing to bomb innocent people to get the oil of their land.I feel ashamed that there are MEN that would kill his own kind (human kind) just because he does not share his religious belief, culture or political idiology.YES, we should ALL feel guilty.Instead of talking peacefully with our BROTHERS, we either try to dictate what certain GROUPS should think or we side with only 1 GROUP not being fair the the others. YES we should ALL feel guilty.We are ALL acountable EQUALLY.There are different humans as opposite as Black and White but we are all still part of ONE GROUP.Even if each race came from different planets (which is as "Different" as you can get), we are still CONNECTED as ONE through the Universe.And YES this has EVERYTHING to do with this subject.

Hope that answers your question

Sorry, but I'm not going to feel ashamed for something some dude I don't know, have never met and will never meet wants to do with his free time.

That's just silly.

By that logic, I should feel ashamed/guilty of Lil' John and/or Lil' Wayne just because I'm black and have dreadlocks.

Not really, as said before


A president is an elected official given power by the people and chosen to represent the peoples will, heads of religion are representives of their god TO the people, their not elected by the people and they dont govern them, their more like teachers and their actions don't represent the peoples will, it represents gods will.

Now i admit they work similarly but in todays world one is alot mor eofficial than the other.

Even if you were to admit they are IDENTICAL, the difference in this situation is that americans bombing the middle east was an order from our LEADER, the bombing of the trade center was ordered by a random guy who had no cloud in the religious community. It would be the similar to rush limbaugh ordering the bombing of Iran, its just not official. The leaders of the muslim community didnt order the trade center bombing.

As i mentioned earlier timothy mcvey was a hardcore christian and a new yorker, should we hold all Christians and new yorkers in contempt for his terrorist bombing??

Im just thinking on a deeper level here. I dont see why there would be any shame in being black with dreadlocks. Now being Black and Gangbanger, thats a whole different thing.

Perhaps "SHAME" is a strong word but my point is having a sense of responsibility.Its called having a heart. I have a friend who is Black and works with troubled youths, both Black and Latino.He has nothing to do with these kids and what they do with their "free time" but he tries to help them for various reasons. One because he grew up struggling but overcame the streets and NO, he was never a gangbanger or drug use himself.Also (as he once put it) Us Minoritys get a bad rap sometimes because of stereo types and basicaly, if he can change the thinking of these troubled kids for the better, perhaps people they interact with wont be quik to judge them to be bad people based on the way they may look or dress.Various reasons.

Sure you can say "Well thats there problem for being ignorant" but when I see other Mexican American gangbanging and being negative themselves, it doesnt help anything.If not with a random street kid, I try to do my part with the kids in my family and friends.
Would it be better I teach them to just hate people that are going to jugde or hate them for whatever reason?

Now that would be just silly.

Umm... what exactly are you arguing here? I'm confused. I thought this was about one group's right to be angry at another group for something that a small segment of that group did.



How does this factor at all? Are you assuming that muslims don't attempt to help other muslims or other people in their group who struggle with life, or that they don't do the other things mentioned in that paragraph? I assure you, they volunteer, perform community service, build neighborhood community centers in dilapidated parts of... oh, wait.

Fixed... left a half-thought out.

I think the more appropriate question is:Should we give all Christians the Death Penalty for what Tymothy Mcvey did? The answer would be NO. I say again, the answer is NO we SHOULD NOT kill other Christians for what ONE person did.

As I said earlier, I'm against ALL religions anyway for my own reasons, so its not so simple. I do believe there are good Christians that feel a sense of responsibility to help guide other people who share their belief to live and act how they are supposed to according to there religion because a lot of Christians nowadays get a bad rap for being hypocrites and perhaps someone should have spent more time trying to talk some sense into Mcvey instead of waisting their time trying to convert someone like myself.
It's not right that all Christians be judge for the hypocritical way a lot of them live and it's also not right to judge all Catholics because so many of there "Leaders" being the preachers, (YES Some are elected www.religionfacts.com) are found to have molested kids. However the continuation of such a lifestyle does not help to restore the image of the religion.Knowing this other representatives must condemn such acts and try to teach better


Everything really is only a matter of opinion. People will always use technicality's to justify things to work in there favor and this discussion is no different.


Its being used that A COUNTRY is different than a Religion. One being "OFFICIAL' while the other is not OFFICIAL.

******1Coun·try - a : the land of a person's birth, residence, or citizenship b : a political state or nation or its territory www.merriam-webster.com

or

Gov·ern·ment - a : the organization, machinery, or agency through which a political unit exercises authority and performs functions and which is usually classified according to the distribution of power within it www.merriam-webster.com

or

American - A citizen of The Untied Stateswww.merriam-webster.com

*****Re·li·gion - b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
www.merriam-webster.com

When you look at each definition alone without going any further, it's easy to say that Country and Religion are "by definition" are 2 completely different things. No argument there.

But when you actually do look a little further and a realize the both are in fact GROUPS

Groups - a : a number of individuals assembled together or HAVING SOME UNIFYING RELATIONSHIP. www.merriam-webster.com

By definition, they both HAVE SOME UNIFYING RELATIONSHIP therefore they ARE THE SAME.

"Every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in." - The Godfather part III

:)

this had me LOL.


DJ Josh V - I think the logic of your argument pretty much completely collapsed at all MEN should feel guilt for 9/11 because it was 19 guys that did it. Men should feel guilty, and women should punish us - and lesbian feminists should feel vindicated.

What about black haired people, should we as a group feel guilt since all 19 had black hair? same group - share the guilt. LOL

So why do they keep fucking with Blonde Lesbian Christian Old Ladies at the airport? tell me that!

This made me lol!

So if someone else who disent believe in god goes in a school and shoots up a bunch of kids do i have the right to get angy at YOU??




SO why is it ok to be mad at all muslims because a handful of lunatics crashed a plane into some towers???




....blank stare...



Ok yes i agree they are both groups, so are NAMBLA, the NAZIS, SKINHEADS, HIPPYS, United Way, the salvation army, christians, club goers, record pools, the WWF societey (no wrestling), and this forum.....so since they are all groups and so are muslims then by your definition we should hate all these equally for the actions of these terrorists since they are all groups right.

you know, I was thinking - in a far flung round about head east to go west type Zen unified universal way - Josh is absolute in his correctness. WE as in humanity are all to blame for 9/11. We are one race. We are one people, one group. One species, One planet, one Existence. The Universe is ONE. Existence is ONE. ONE is ONE. There is no US and Them (oops). There is no up or down. There is no past or present. There is nothing but ONE. It is in a solid crystal diamond of perfection sitting on that back of a tortoise slowly walking through the valleys of an infinite desert.

Actually I think my argument was completely built something new from the ground up :-)

IT IS NOT OK. IT IS NOT OK. IT IS NOT OK.

Heres the breakdown:
My original argument was that IT IS ALSO NOT OK TO BLAME ALL AMERICANS FOR WHAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS DONE. My intention was not to promote equal HATE but rather equal TOLERANCE.

AKIEM went on to explain how a Country (or AMERICANS)is different from a RELIGION (or Muslims).I already know exactly what those differences are and even supplied actual definitions of each according to www.merriam-webster.com ,well respected when it comes to definitions.

ME: I took this as a cop-out. A sort of brilliant attorney type move. An argument to justify something based on a technicality. I therefore brought up a Technicality of my own which was "GROUP". By definition AMERICANS and MUSLIMS are in fact "GROUPS" which would support my original argument which was: That it is NOT OK to hate GROUP X as a whole for what a few EXTREMIST from GROUP X has done negatively to GROUP Y and the same equally applies to GROUP Y.

Everything else from there is pretty much repetitive.There have been a few extra valid points and remarks and other people got in the mix but ultimately has gone nowhere and will go nowhere.

Even talks with my Persian friends about all this stuff hasn't been this ridiculous and repetitive but it is what it is I guess.

^^lol, I just noticed my quote fail at the top but you get it^^

you forgot the part where you admitted that even you will be mad at the country that droppes a bomb on your house.

Yes I conviniently forgot. I admitted to being mad at the officals and others directly resposible representing the country (or group) for calling those shots to drop a bomb on my house assuming I survived to feel that emotion.I also admitted that I would not wish or attempt to cause death on the innocent people representing that country (or group).

Well again part of the problem is you think that I am defending the hijackers. When I am not. I am defending the idea that someone can be mad at country without being mad at a single individual from that country. Two different things, burning a flag does not equal blowing up buildings.

The guy burning the flag is the same as you being mad.

Again - I never have, nor will I ever defend the people who committed 9/11.


The other problem with your summery. The entire Group X should not be blamed for the actions of a few extremist claiming to members of Group X. And the same should go for Group Y.

and I agree

BUT

What happens when we name what group Y is in our scenario?

Group Y in our scenario is "America". So yes, I agree that we can not blame Group Y (America) for what a few extremests from America might do? I agree fully.

The part that you seem not to recognize is that THE UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES is not "a few EXTREMESTS from GROUP Y "

If it where a Klan group from the caves of Montana who bombed and invaded Iraq and Afghanistan YOU would be on point.

THE UNITED STATES ARMY is not "a few extremests"
THE GOVERNMENT of the UNITED STATES is not "a few extremests"
THE PEOPLE WHO PAY FOR THE BOOMBS is not "a few extremests"
THE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORTED THE WARS is not "a few extremests"

And it all repeats again.......

I never officially declared THE UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES to be EXTREMIST but unless you've been living in a cave, I'm sure you realize that there are many people that would tell you otherwise.You hear it all the time, people will say "It is not Muslims who are the terrorist but THE UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES who are the terrorist for invading our land and bombing innocent Men,Women and Children". Have you never heard such a statement? I never declared that but there sure are other people that feel they can declare that

There is no OFFICIAL "Problem". It's just a problem according to you (I'm talking strictly between us since we are the ones debating)Its all really a matter of opinion man. What you do not recognize is that I do in fact recognize and respect the point you are trying to make but I simply do not agree with you and your OPINION of the overall message and to the depth of it all.I just don't and I never will.I understand that you feel that you are just trying to help me see the truth according to you.I understand because I feel just that exact same way towards you and what the truth is according to me and I'm just trying to help you see. Maybe your frustrated and want to reach through the computer and punch me or perhaps you find this all amusing and laughing at me or maybe you don't feel anything at all. It's no sweat for me personally as I'm a tolerant person who doesn't care much to have grudges with people.Im convinced that I can't convince you and you have your reasons.And Im giving you my confirmation that you can't convince me because of my reasons which inlude the support of others I've talk with about this, some of which are Muslims.

As I stated before in another thread, I was well on my way to becoming a Muslim myself as I felt Islam applied to me more than the Christian/Catholic religion I grew up around in my own family.This is how I learned first hand about Islam and know great people that are Muslims.So to insinuate that I dislike Muslims (I'm NOT declaring it a fact that's what you were doing) just seems crazy to me. What I can say is that on my journey to finding myself spiritually, there were many things I learned about Islam that I had a lot of problems with and still do, finding myself once again disappointed like I was with Christianity.I am now 100% content with where I stand now which some would label me as Agnostic but I still refuse to label myself as that but it is what it is.

At the end of the day the question is, do you want peace on earth.I know that sounds mad cheezy but I know that's what I want. What about you? Im not suggesting you don't.In fact I think you do too.Just want to hear (or in this case see) it from you.

It will NEVER happen, not only is it out of line with the human condition but also the way weve set up the working system of societey will make it impossible

So its been about 2 months since this thread was started.

Has anyone been compared to Hitler yet or should i come back in 2 months?

Wow.... still going huh?

The day we will have peace amd the madness will stop: www.youtube.com view

If I defend the right and reason for a pissed-off guy burning a flag, you act like I am defending Al-Qaeda.

If I show there are differences between groups (which is laughingly obvious), religion vs country vs extremist militia vs race vs sex YOU claim they are all the same.



which is NOT even the argument.

I was going by YOUR logic:

Just replace the X Y to the real subject, what happens?

"That it is NOT OK to hate Muslims as a whole for what a few EXTREMIST from (the) Muslim Religion has done negatively to (the) United States and the same equally applies to (the) United States."

and I agree - But fallow the LOGIC and apply it equally. "same equally applies to"

Switch the variables:

"That it is NOT OK to hate America as a whole for what a few EXTREMIST from America have done negatively to (the) Muslim and the same equally applies to (the) Muslims."

NOW, notice it says "... a few EXTREMISTS from America..."

But we are NOT talking about "A FEW EXTREMISTS FROM AMERICA"! We are talking about THE UNITED STATES MILITARY, or the COUNTRY of THE UNITED STATES.

There is a difference between EXTREMESTS FROM A GROUP or country, and THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.

You are adding the qualifying "EXTREMEST" to the equation making it off balance, it changes the size and character of ONE, when they should both be equal. If we make it equal by removing "EXTREMIST" from the sentence so that we are correctly talking about a COUNTRY, how does it read?

"That it is NOT OK to hate America as a whole for what America has done negatively to (the) Muslim and the same equally applies to (the) Muslims."

How does that sound? Really? It is not okay to hate America for what America has done? Is it okay to "be mad at" America for what America has done?

I think that it is okay. Even you would be mad at the COUNTRY that drops a bomb on your house. There is nothing wring with being mad at America for something America has done.

So again, there is a big difference between "a group of extremists" and an "entire country". You say they are the same because they are both "groups" - even though I am sure that you know better and just want to 'win' the argument.






















I am not frustrated - online arguments are entertaining like chess games to me. (But I took your queen when you resorted to 'all MEN should feel guilty for 9/11'). I am laughing at you for stretching your logic so far to its ridiculous ending.

And, I dont see why you would need to talk to a Muslim about it, are not any group of people interchangeable?



I wasnt insinuating or stating anything was a fact - I started with asking you questions, then using logic. It wasnt till after that I had to resort to definitions (of 'country' for example)



Sure, I would love peace on Earth (unless its the peace that that one guy bringsforth in revelations)

AND, I think that an essential part of a path to peace may be in understanding the harm WE (as individuals or nations) cause other people. And a possible way to detect that harm is be recognizing, and understanding what it it is that people are upset at us about. If someone is mad at me, I am not going to just say, sorry you dont have the right to be angry with me. I want to understand what that anger is so that I can figure out if I am doing something wrong. (but I think in the case of the US, we already know what we are doing is wrong and we dont want to hear it so we get upset when someone protests and we take offense at a flag burning)

Honestly I think only a small portion of the disagreement is that we just do not agree. But the large part is that you thought I was making a statement when I was simply asking and showing an error in your wording. Then you just hardend your position and wound up defending words and taking a position that YOU really dont even agree with.

You are NO ONE to officially declare what is or what is not an argument


Wow, that's exactly how I feel about you.See we do think somewhat alike ;p

Thought I'd share this.

www.current-movie-reviews.com

LOL did I make an official declaration?

If I were trying to, I am pretty sure that this format prevents it.



The only problem is we are discussing YOUR logic here, remember the question is about YOUR words, not mine.




Interesting how at first Rielly just says "Muslims killed us" then he had to qualify that with "extremists" - sounds familiar

Muslim Extreamist are still in fact MUSLIM are they not? So the only thing he was wrong about was saying it in a politicaly incorrect way for the the sensitive people who are quik to attack something that is indeed a fact (sound familiar?).But what I was refering to was the fact the the majority of the country is against the Mosques.

Like they say: People get mad at the truth.

That poll is terrible. The wording is useless; "Do you want a mosque" should be "Do you mind if a mosque", since obviously non-muslims wouldn't necessarily "want" a mosque but they might support other's rights to build it. I'm sure they thought they covered that with the "don't care" option, but there's no way to separate the apathetic from the supporters of basic religious freedom in that choice.

BTW, where has a poll ever been taken that says that "MOST Americans don't want a mosque there"? I'd like to see it... polls are notoriously easy to steer (Where was it taken? How was it worded/interpreted? How large was the sample? etc.)

acording to.........




yes and christian extremists are christians american extremests are american and soforth, not sure what you still trying to prove with that conjecture.

Nobody has yet to answer my question on if it would be inappropriate to build a christian church across the street from the site of the Oklahoma city bombing, as timmothy MCvey was a very avid christian

He was agnostic, he wasn't a Christain...

he grew up Roman Catholic and his parents were Roman Catholic

To generalise more, do you think any americans would be opposed to building a christian church near the site of a viloent act commited by a christian?? Theres a few examples in my head but i dont want to google terrorist acts from my work pc LOL

Yes, but it's not what you practice as a child, but what you identify with as an adult..

Christianity is not associated with terrorism(at least not in the US), like Islam is.. Plus Christianity is a broad term covering various denominations. Maybe if a specific rogue denomination; say for instance the Church of neo-Nazis(I just made that up) blew up an area, then a few years later wanted to build a church near that location; yes people would have a problem with it..

So is Islam, but most americans don't think/know about that I'm betting.

www.religionfacts.com

That site left out the American muslims; I'm sure it missed others as well.

So is it a particular sect that is carrying out terrorist activity or do all sects participate?

Really, youve obviously not aware of a small group called the KKK (Klu Klux Klan), the CPA (Christian Patriot movement), and the Christian Identity movment, the aryan nation ect ect. We even have animal rights groups and anti-abortion groups wo commit terrorists activitys.

Definitely a particular group. I think it was called Al Qaeda. No idea what sect each member of that group claims; it's kind of irrelevant, since not every member of each sect is a member of Al Qaeda.

Put this way, I bet if say the word terrorist to a group of Americans who do you think will come to mind first; Muslims or any of the above groups. Or even better, who does the media most often portray as terrorists..

Whats with the Islamophobia in here

you just answered why the 1st part happens with the second part of your question. All the groups I mentioned are white american christian groups, most of your media are white american christian reporting to a nation full of white american christians, as illistrated by josh we like to group things so if a white american christian shoots up a school, hes just a lunatic and dosent represent US, but when someone different does it they represent their fear of the entire group, the fear of the unknown, the foreign people who dont look and act like us. Its the media playing to the fear of the unknown, a foreign force.

Who do you think has killed more ameircans on american soil durring their existance, islamic terrorists or the KKK, yet which one is thought of 1st as a terorist

lol well i can explain RRs phobia just by referencing the religious thread LOL

I see no phobia here, just opinions and social facts..

most of the "social facts" in this thread are pure phobias

And what would that be..



And would you be referring Josh, AKIEM or both..

The point is not that it is 'politically incorrect'. The problem is that it is bigotry.

The original assertion was "Muslim" and drawing a connection between Al-Qaeda and the Muslims at Park Place.

He had to make the correction "Muslim Extremists".

NOW why should we see this connection between Extremists who would will kill a moderate Muslim at any opportunity?

Muslim Extremists probably hate those Moderates at Park Place more then any other Americans. This guy at Park Place has said that America is 'Sharia Compliant', America is in accord with the Quaran. He is OPOSITE these extremists.




as pointed out that poll is crap

I think its pretty funny how so called rule of Law Republicans who always point out how we dont live by 'mob rule' - this is a 'republic not a democracy' - states rights - start quoting bullshit polls to make a point.

Going back....
Your not making the rules here (nor am I) WE are not discussing my logic. YOU are debating my logic and I'm debating your logic

Apparently we all need to tip-toe around here and be very careful and specific in our words. It SEEM people are making others out to be something they are not and putting words into there mouth here.Again, IT SEEMS that way.

"But your doing the same Josh" - I said "IT SEEMS" and no that was not my intention to make anyone think Im trying to make them out to be something there not.Im tolerant and open to hear what people think. I think logically, use my gut instinct,talk and listen to people and then I form my conclusion and stand by it. It SEEM others just believe what they want and don't give a damn or respect what others think ans insist what they say is the truth.



I was simply stating a fact and you admitted you agree with me and I agree with you about the Chirstians and so forth. I don't know why that has to mean Im trying to go any futher about something or that I have something to PROVE.


I AM agnostic to those who insist I label myself.

The religion you grow up in means nothing as an adult. As far as I'm concerned, it means NOTHING period as it is Mad Made.Why even mention this as its irreverent.And I said I grew up around Christians and Catholics. Moms side Catholic and Dads side Christian.

"But Josh, Catholic is a form of Christianity" What the hell, are we in History class now?geesh, Fine, whatever,lets stay on topic here.

But he did in fact correct himself.In the heat of a debate people will say things or leave out things.In this case of course he was on TV so you gotta be more careful. He was never even given the chance to make it clear what he meant.Instead Whoopas Goldberd and that other broad were quick to run away like little girls that couldn't handle it. Apparently, they already have a problem with the guy and that makes you an instant target. If this guy wasn't so controversial, he would have been given a chance to catch himself and clarify without a problem.You shouldn't be so quick to judge. Just because you dislike his views, your quick to jump on his ass. Hell, Im worried to post here using my phone with all the typos I make trying to use a damn touchscreen keyboard. You might hold that against me.So Judgmental.I thought thats what you were protesting against

well, when you don't like something, people will always say that.When someone doesn't like the fact that something is BLUE,even though it is clearly BLUE, they will still call it bullshit because they just can't stand it. But anyway, perhaps that poll is crap.I don't know. Im sure you think I posted it because you think I support people who are against Muslims or something but you would be wrong.

"So why did you post that poll for then?" Because I found it interesting and simply because I could. Even CNN has a poll suggesting the same thing but of course then you would say "Why would you trust CNN". I honestly don't think there is any poll that would be accepted by you guys. If the poll suggested otherwise then it would be excepted of course and yes it would be excepted by me if the poll came out that most Americans were for the Mosques. I don't mind. that's never been my argument from the beginning. If you took it that way, that that's your issue you need to sort out with yourself.

Again I am for equal tolerance and respect. for the 1000th time, I just feel that if you want to do something that you know so many people have a problem with,even though it is your right, you should at least reconsider to avoid any potential problems and this applies to ALL GROUPS.To me its that simple and sounds reasonable to me.

...and if black people had done this in the 60's, where would they be now? Sometimes it's not about what's popular.

This is why America is fucked. Everyone is worried about other peoples feelings or afraid to stand out/go against the grain. Just follow suit and be a good boy.

Im saying for example, the preacher and his people who wanted to burn the Quron were given a hard time for wanting to do that.In his eyes, he believes what he believes and wanted to take a stand. People didnt repect his opinion and warned him of potential death threats and stuff.He at least he thought "Well I still dislike Islam but I dont want anyone to get hurt so I wont do it"

The Mosque situation is similer.There are a lot of people against it and there are probably some crazy people who have made death treats that if they go through with it that they would do something stupid.But the people resposible for the mosque dont give a shit and will go throught with it no matter the drama,even at the cost of potentialy costing Muslims lives.

I see both sides. I believe standing up for something of course but EVERYONE should have the right to do that. But if its expected that a GROUP take the "lets reconsider just to avoid the bullshit" route, then this should apply equally to all groups involved.People simply dont agree with equality aparently.They have the right to believe this for there reasons but no need to come out like a Crazy Religious person trying to preach to someone about there twisted bullshit vision of what the TRUTH is and trying to convert them to their belief system.Thats the shit that has me againts religions in a big way.I repect them doing there thing and leave them alone but they dont give a shit.If they dont like the way another person sees thing they will be on their ass about it.Everything is this world is simply opinio and there is no such thing as Right an......you know what, its poimtless to even go into that one.SMH.

nope
you said some shit
I asked what you meant
you are the one saying XYZ,
I am telling you whats wrong with saying XYZ



LOL@tip-toe

I didnt put any words in your mouth I ASKED what you meant. I did not criticize what you meant till AFTER you were clear about it.



LOL@ people 'insisting' they are correct. No, people should not think they are right should they?





First he says "Muslims killed us on 9/11"
drawing a connection between the Hijackers and the Park Place Center Muslims
(same as you have been doing this whole time)

"Muslims" meaning THE Muslims? Obviously because "Muslims" is supposed to draw a connection between the hijackers and the Park Place Muslims.

He then makes a CORRECTION because he named the WRONG GROUP.

He then used "Muslim Extremists" (even though to be correct he should have said Al-Qaeda). But after he has to use "Muslim Extremists" he does not continue with his point. He cant continue with his point unless he is saying the Park Place Muslims are "Muslim Extremists".

If he would have said "Al-Qaeda killed us on 9/11" (which is true) then how could he have been making any point about the Community Center at Park Place? That point only works for the people who believe that ALL Muslims are working together with Al-Qaeda. The same dumb people who think Saddam was a member of Al-Qaeda.


dramatic phony tv trash for our viewing pleasure = meaningless



Really, *I* shouldnt be so quick to judge? LOL Its a video clip, I watched the whole thing twice before responding. LOL more - I dont protest peoples typos. dont be afraid, you can make as many as you want. I you misspell some shit I assume you did not mean to. If I cant tell what you are saying I will ASK. LOL@telling me I am judgmental over spelling mistakes I have said nothing about LOL+



no, I dont know why you posted it. Why did you? do you think it means something?
I dont.

"Do you want a mosque at Ground Zero (For the purposes of this poll only, please don't vote if you're not an American, thanks!)"

* Yes
* No
* Don't Care

yes? - I dont mind if there is a Mosque "near" Ground Zero. But that does not mean that I WANT a Mosque at Ground Zero (like I am calling for it). So I would not answer "yes"

no? - I think that it is fine if they open a Mosque two blocks away. So I am not against it so it doesnt seem like I should answer "no" (even tho I am not saying I want one there)

Don't Care? - Cant answer that ether because I obviously have a lot of shit to say about it.

So that technically does not leave a way for me to answer the poll. and you cant have a poll that does not provide an answer.

What the poll was worded "Do you think the Federal Government should force people to abandon plans to open a community center in a building they purchased just because some activist protesters dont like it?"
*yes
*no
*dont know
*dont care



Now THAT is putting words in my mouth, quotes and everything.

LOL - now you are telling me what I would say and arguing against it - LOL



And who said that we should vote or have a poll to decide what should be done?

What do the so called "Conservatives" say about Individual Rights, Representation, and Rule of Law VS 'Mob Rule'? - oh but not here, pull out those polls



I am pretty sure they have 'reconsidered' it plenty.

People should not submit to other peoples ignorance.

Maybe the difference is this guy is a HATER. He hates Islam.

If these people were planning on burning a stack of bibles at ground zero, sure. But they are opening a community center. They have Christians and Jews on the board of directors. They 'love America'. They worked for the Bush administration.

its nothing the same




What are the similarities again?

1) the media blew them both WAAAAYYYY out of frame
2) people are protesting, threatening
3) is there anything else?

so anytime someone protests and threatens us, we should just go along with their will and not our own? (<----not putting words in your mouth, asking a question)



this sounds like just rambling - not sure what you are saying

LOL of course it sounds like rambeling to you.Convinient for you to say that when you dislike something.Thats what youve been doing this whole time.Who are you to declare that preacher is a hater and not somone who just wants peace.He is against Islam and thats his right.Hes not killing anyone. Im standing up for everyone to have equal rights and I stand up for America because someone has to but IT SEEMS you have this twisted idea that in doing so,that I hate muslim people or belive that I dont know the difference between Extreamist and the group their trying to represent..You Seem to think that I believe its OK to invade other countries.IT SEEMS that you think I dont belive Muslims have the right to build a mosque and If Im wrong,why are we having this discussion?

Your right, I simply made a statement.I didnt attack anyone just because I disagreed with them.Thats what you did.I support your right to do so but I have the right to believe its a waist of time.Do you really believe you are right or do you awknowledge that it is just your opinion? Just a question,relax,LOL.


since I could post anything on here and be attacked for it,why not?lol I like this guy and his message.
www.youtube.com view

who he is reffering to who Im sure youll hate
www.youtube.com view

I'm personaly more entertained by the dumbasses arguing in the comments

Youtube comment discussions = 40% lolz, 20% smh, 30% wtf and 10% omg.

I guess we're doomed to fight the crusades forever. Ugh.

^lol,sadly.

what have I been doing this whole time? rambling or saying that you are rambling?

in that paragraph you are using a lot of 'their' and 'they', but seem to be talking about a variety of different people, but I am not sure who. And then you quit in mid-sentence calling it "pointless". So sorry if I could not fallow what you were trying to say. If you were making an impotent point maybe try again.



really? "peace"?

I am pretty sure that our original disagrement started with you having a problem with a guy 'burning a flag' - (maybe that guy just wants peace too?)

I can only think of one thing more symbolic of 'hate' - and that would be to defecate on someone elses scripture, banner, or effigy.

(anyway, I think that you disagree with scripture burning being 'hate' is even more funny then all 'men' are guilty of 9/11)



you did say that a 'group is a group' same rules should apply to extremists or not. so its not a mater of 'knowing the difference' its a mater of TREATING them the same. 'group is a group'

And I am pretty sure that I never said you 'hate' Muslims. Just that we should treat Muslims as if "THEY" are responsible for 9/11.

(I actually dont believe you think that - but I am not sure, because it is what you have been saying)



I dont remember what you said about it.

I actually do believe it is 'ok' to invade other countries - but only for a just cause and clear mission



I am pretty sure that this was the first thing I said to you:
(also take note: I am asking you questions - not attacking you)





I believe my opinion is right.
(and I really dont know how someone can believe they have a 'wrong opinion', so I dont know why you are asking)

And I believe my facts are right.
(if they are not, that can be shown)

but really, I "attacked" you? I am pretty sure that I started by asking questions.



seems like you have been arguing against this guys message the whole time - even taking Bill O'Riellys position.

You take it that I was taking Bill O'riely's posistion? LOL,really. Just because I think you should allow a man to clarify himself even if there was nothing false about what he said?Just because I can respect a mans opinion and not have a damn heart attack about it clearly must mean that I side with them. Its not what he said but how it was taken by those who clearly have something against the man.

And if it seems like I have been arguing against this guys message (in the video) all along, then why would I post it? Either Im a hypocrite or you really havn't been paying attention to exactly where I'm coming from.Everything is up for interpretation and apparently you misinterpreted what I said and took it to a whole other level.But see, I respect your right as an American to do so. Im not gonna have a mental meltdown because of it like other people and take shit so literally either.Stand up for something,YES, but be wise enough to know when your waiting your breath.Relax man,LMFAO!

You know I didn't even bother reading all your quotes and I wont waist my time anymore because you obviously are just desperate for the last word. We simply disagree and thats that.What more do you want?Some of us are able to think open minded and acknowledge both sides while others are one sided and only want to live within their bubble and bash everyone who doesnt think like them in forums among other places. If there is anything that you want me to clearify for you than I will but at least don't mix the question in with your gibberish and ask them clearly in its own post within this thread.

SMH and LMAO at this whole thread.

1. YOU post a link to the video

2. The subject matter of the video is the same as this thread topic

3. ORielly is saying shit similar to what you have been saying
"The Muslims did it"

4. You say he is "right" (just politically incorrect)
"the only thing he was wrong about was saying it in a politicaly incorrect (way)"
(and yes, I am using quotation marks because those are YOUR words)

5. When I argue against what Bill is saying (not how he is saying it) you refute it with YOUR own arguments that support what he is saying.

6. YOU said NOTHING against what he said.

So of course I think that you have taken Bill O'Riellys position. How or why should I think anything else? LOL this is so silly.


here is where you sound like Bill:
"If I gotta understand that they are angry at us for bombing thier citys, which I do and am also angry. Then they should understand that were angry at them for flying planes into our buildings and killing innocent people. Of course it sounds stupid because it is but at least its fare."

That is something I think Bill O'Rielly would say (maybe without "and am also angry").

This is Bills argument: The Ground Zero Mosque builders should "understand" we are mad at Muslims for 9/11.

ME: Why should all Muslims have to "understand" when it was Al-Qaeda who did it?
YOU: Because they are the same RELIGION.



I dont know



I have mostly been asking questions, most being ignored.



ok



The reason I have been meticulously leaving ALL of your words for my response is you said:
"Its pointless even talking about it. I already know only certain sentences or words will be quoted rather than taking in everything as a whole.So whatever."

So I tried not to snip any of your words out when I responded. But whats funny is that you would do just that - clip everything out with a rambling response. And further you resorted to just making up complete quotes to respond to, shit I dont think, and never said.

So now you want me to ask questions about what you are saying without quoting?

WOW,you got everything twisted up and wrong and for me to respond to your last post to clarify how you are wrong would be repeating myself ALL OVER and I'm not gonna waist my time here anymore.Think what you will,I'm done.I realized just now realized that you are the one who is in charge of what is "RIGHT and what is "WRONG" or who is Good" and who is "Evil".SMH. Peace

Well you and your main debater have alot in cmon :)