I'm going to hell, what about you?

Like I mentioned in a previous thread, I've asked for forgiveness, but keep doing the same old thing...

I figure I'll wait until I'm wheelchair bound, and 100 years old, and ask for Forgiveness then.

Hope you don't croak at 99 years old. lol

That WOULD be messed up, wouldn't it?

I wonder if there's a special place for us that haven't COMPLETELY given up the secular life, but haven't fully committed to walking the straight and narrow....

If you really want true repentance pray for it, ask for the wisdom of obedience. God gives freely without finding fault (James 1:5).
Do you remember the parable Jesus told in Luke 18 of the unjust judge and the widow. The judge didn't care about anyone and didn't fear God, but because the lady was so persistent in what she wanted the judge gave it to her so she would stop bothering him. Then Jesus goes on to say how much more will God be willing to give and how quick..

I don't plan on going to he'll but you never know..

Cool words. It's hard to believe that hewould give freely without finding fault.

That's what bugs me out. Like I understand there is a certain path to follow, but it's mad easy to get off it, and wonder if you really would spend ETERNITY in hell.

I'm still trippin that he sent his son to pay my debt.. I can't imagine someone doing me wrong, and then giving them a gift after. I guess thats just that true love i'll never really fully comprehend.

I'm just hoping that this all isn't a bunch of bull. I went to church as a kid as my parents went and so on and so forth. I'm not really religious, but live moreso by what's "Right and Wrong".

One time I did something REALLY BAD, and went to church and all that, but soon fell out because to me, THAT particular church was about "Other" stuff, like giving plugs to Car Dealerships that the pastor was friendly with, and junk like that.

They say that people who are UNAWARE of certain things may be "Forgiven", but those who are exposed and KNOW what they're supposed to do, but DON'T do it, will catch it.

Why would that bug you, the idea a gracious kind all forgiving loving caring god who loves you for who you are and sent his only son to die for you so you could go to heaven would create a firy pit to forever torment you with if you do anything wrong in life....wrongs that include things like eating meat on a friday. It all sounds legit right, dont know what would bother you about that.

The problem is that I might actually have to spend ETERNITY in HELL with YOU.

Now the thought of that makes me want to go to Church right now....

My religion prevents that possibility

WHEW!

You almost have the concept.

He's being sarcastic, but you'll see...

lol the fact that me being sarcastic provides almost the actual concept says alot lol, praise be to the FSM

Its never to late to change the way you have been living. God makes great things out of the most awful people and situations. Its not easy to change old habits but with an open heart God will transform you from the inside out. Jesus is watching us every minute of the day hoping we invite him into our hearts, waiting to make your life better. The only problem is that he will force his way, you have to reach out to him. Its no fun just reading the word, put his word into action by being a light in the darkness. I know its so hard staying on the right path because we live in a fallen world. there is hope in him who cared and loved us first.

He will not force his way.

35With Him, All Things are Pasta-Bowl. 36FSM answered, It is written:’Man does not live on bread alone, but on every pasta that comes from the mouth of me. 37Cook pasta for others, as you would have them cook pasta for you. 38As a child I slurped noodles as a child, dribbled sauce as a child, and threw meatballs as a child. Now I see through the sauce darkly, and speak with the tongues of pirates, and all is sound and blurry if I have not love. 39Faith, hope, and noodles; and of these, the greatest is noodles.

40It is easier for a meatball to pass through the eye of a tornado than for a confused man to enter the Kingdom of Pasta. 41Punish not those but for a noodle for a noodle, a meatball for a meatball. 42Strive for the stars, for nothing is impastable. 43Pray for the things you want, but work for the pasta you need. 44Thou shall continue on the path of the great noodly one, through both thick marina sauce and thin marinara sauce.

45Those who ask for seconds will be provided, those with no appetite for the lord shall feel His hunger. 46Those who eat pasta shall inherit the earth. 47Let he who is without seasoning, cast the first pinch of basil. 48Noodle unto others as you would have them noodle unto you.

Im going to hell on the express bus wearing gasoline draws.

Actually im going in the ground for eternity like the rest of you. There is no heaven, there is no hell, religion was created to control a primitive people. Those arent commandments they are laws.

Ill prob get flamed for this but fuck it, i got the knuckle scars, i paid my dues.

Do you ever feel funny about spreading "His Word"? I know it's kiddish and all, but do your peers "listen" to you, or just kinda say "Hey, that's Polanka"...

Why do you feel that there is no heaven and no hell?

The same reason i feel the earth wasnt created 4-5000 years ago.

Science has debunked half the teachings in that book, how can i believe the rest?

Ok, so you're a Science buff, which is a reasonable argument.

Is Religion a thing that you think is MADE UP, so people will have something to "Live" for?

I mean, if everybody knew for a fact that there was NO Afterlife, wouldn't the world get chaotic?

Yes i do, i think back in the day as humans were starting to ask questions that had no answers (meaning of life, why are we here, what happens when we die) religion was created to answer these questions.

If told by a Supreme Being, no one would question the though of going to a place in the sky that cant be seen or found, where everyone you love is waiting for you.

Also if you look at the commandments, half of them are laws, dont kill dont steal, dont cheat, dont envy. The other half are threats of leaving the church, dont worship others, dont create idols.

gotta go phone....

The best way I've heard it described is this: "We all deserve to go to hell. Some accept the pardon".

God demands perfection. None of us are perfect. Thus, we'd all spend eternity apart from God in a state of eternal suffering, because of a debt we all owe and could never repay. That's the very reason why Jesus' sacrifice is significant - He paid the debt we cannot. This is what separates Christianity from the rest of the world religions. It's not a works-based situation where you either have to do X good deeds or not do Y bad deeds. Our salvation isn't earned, it's freely given by God to us.

Now, just for the record, I'm not hear to preach to anyone. I'm just looking to explain and discuss my viewpoint with those here that both agree with it and disagree. To attempt to coerce anyone to share my beliefs is contrary to the example Jesus set. To impose upon one's free will is at variance with the very foundation of the Bible.

Joey

Hmmmm....intrusting....

I personally NEED there to be an AfterLife, because I've got too much stuff to do, and not enough time to do it...

So I figure, I'll finish it up there, or get re-incarnated.

Ok, I was rockin' with you until you said that part. I thought we were supposed to "Spread the word" and all that?

my religion even has rules of forum Etiquette


First Letter From Edd to the Forum Members


1 One day a man entered a strip joint and sat at a back table. 2 Verily, he did order his minimum of drinks, which numbered two. 3 He sat, expressionless, staring at the strippers, without tipping, without beckoning them over. 4 And, yea, did the strippers avoid him and call him ‘creepy.’

5 All night, the creepy patron did sit and stare. 6 The strippers whispered amongst themselves about the body parts he most likely concealeth in a freezer.

7 But, lo, one stripper did become intoxicated and became much too physical with all the customers. 8 Her coworkers did liken her unto a prostitute and were embarrassed on her behalf. 9 She danced provocatively, yet clumsily, eliciting not tips but pity.

10 Behold, On this day I issue a challenge to unrepentant lurkers: 11 Be not like the creepy patron, staring without participating. 12 Lurk until you have become familiar with these forums, then participate. 13 But do not become like the drunken stripper; remember to post with civility, consideration of others, and make a sincere attempt to verify your contribution is intelligible and interesting and not repetitive.

14 Respect the seriousness of the serious threads and the silliness of the humorous threads, for is not The Flying Spaghetti Monster composed of many noodly appendages, each as omniscient and omnipotent as the next? 15 So it is with the forums.

16 May The FSM guide your hands over your keyboard while protecting it from beverages.

RAmen

An Announcement Regarding the Afterlife



*As transcribed by Solipsy and Auntie Dee Dee




A Note from the Second Council of Olive Garden: This was formerly the First Announcement Regarding Canonical Belief, but we moved it here to the Epastals section as it is a more appropriate genre.

1 An ancient and venerable sage spoke unto the Pastaists of all the divisions, unto the Noodleists, and unto the Maranarists, the Fettucinians, the Pastafarians, and all of the great Pasta-based members of the Holy and Delicious Faith, and said:

2 It is my contention that a loving God of any kind would not Damn someone to Hell.

3 Darning them to Heck would be a problem for a supposedly intelligent creator.

4 Lakes of fire, boiling waters, sauces, etc, aren’t a good choice.

5 If you want to attract “justified” persons, portray just rewards and punishments. 6 If you want to attract lunatics and sadists, portray violent punishments.

7 There will be a kind of HellLight, where unbelievers have to live with school cafeteria spaghetti, second rate beer, and boring jobs in the service industries where the Heavenbound FSMists will be living. 8 There will be no privation, no physical torture, no burning or boiling in various liquids. 9 These aren’t bad people, these are people that followed the culture and customs of their times and did not recognize the difference between a culture and a faith.

10 Actual FSM Hell is reserved for a very few, and those will be divided from the Pasta, the finest beverages and the fellowship of persons of good will and kind intent. 11 They will do all the laundry, cleaning and heavy or unpleasant jobs that are there. 12 Never will they eat of the Pasta of any kind, but will live on lots of beans and rice, potatoes and extremely cheap cuts of meat, and the type of diet that the American urban poor can afford, or that Senior Citizens and disabled persons on Social Security are reduced to. 13 They get the really icky dirty work. 14 They deserve it. 15 The bullies of the geopolitical world will be there, and their helpers. 16 The false religious leaders, who plead for funds through electronic media, and give nothing of their true selves, and hoard the money and live in opulence, they will be there. 17 Many others of ill-intent will be with them.

18 There is a reservation there for the tricksters, the con-men, the Abramoff et al/Delay contingent, who will begin every work day by licking clean the footwear of every Native American person there, even in Hell Light. 19 Also there will be the promulgators of the horrible practices against the indigenous people of every country ever “modernized” by Western Civilization. 20 They lick boots as well. 21 And when they’re through they get to do all the stuff that nobody in the Hell above them want to do.

22 Not a real burning-in type hell, no boiling lakes of fire, just an appropriate ‘reward’. 23 No more lunatics and sadists, please. 24 The current administration’s quite enough.

25 Other people have other ideas, but then again other people are promoting Holy War, too. 26 Don’t do that in the name of our FSM. 27 That’s not the Way to Do Things Right.

Our free will is a great gift from God. W


I always feel funny and weird about spreading our Lords word because the devil always tries to bring me down with all my insecurities for following Christ. There is a spiritual war going on right now and the devil is alive and looking to destroy our lives. I have all my arms filled with tattoos and my friends would never guess that I am a Christ follower and that makes me very effective because I can relate with them and they do listen when I share what God has done in my life. I also felt that I wasn't worthy of forgiveness but I know now that Jesus paid for my sins and he as given me the opportunity to speak with God directly.

Those "Insecurities" could be likened to Scientific challenges, THAT MAY HAVE A POINT, so that makes your job of telling "The Story" that much more difficult, right?




Good point. I always wonder if certain hardrocks, or people you would LEAST expect would actually be PROPONENTS of Religion. And I'm not talking about these "Thugs turned Christian Rappers, who are trying to make a buck. But again, how do I know what their REAL intentions are?



What makes you think you were actually "forgiven?"

www.youtube.com view

Check this out. Do you think this was created by someone with intelligence or it just happened by a big bang?

god made everything in creation including man the heavens and the earth, but he also needs 10% of your income, apparently hes just not that inancially sound

You'd want to say "someone with intelligence", but some scientific theories keep hanging on.

Its crazy cause the deeper science looks the more design they find. When the theory of evolution came about, scientist could not see the contents of what is inside a DNA molecule.

I am would say I am religious, or have a religious upbringing but wouldn't classify myself as christian - since I don't follow all the Ten commandments and abide by everything as I should.. It's a hard and rigorous path that is easy to all off...
But - I want my kids to have the same awareness that was taught by Grandma and Mums, so I guess I need to get back with the program for my kids sake...more than anything else..

I wish more people thought like this. I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic high school in brooklyn. Got my communion, then confirmation. But once i got a bit older i just realized it wasnt for me.

I have no problem with the people who believe in this. Its just not for me.

I wont say the world would be a better place without religion, but ill say if more people thought like this guy, we'd all be better off.

To me, thats what life is about. Getting it in before you go. There are no second chances and this shit is short. Thats part of the reason i started DJing at age 30 lol.

Get it in.

My thing is, if there is a higher being, then why "Evolution" in the first place? Why did we have to "Evolve" to get to this point?

Science has the upper hand there.

I'll just observe this thread and and not make any comments. To one person or another, I know I'll be wrong.That's how it is for all of us. So as far as religion goes, I have some very strong beliefs and well as questions.One thing for sure, we will all learn the truth (or not) when we die and from the day we are born, we are all dying.This is one reason I never had or wanted my own biological kids as to not curse them with this fact. That's a guilt I wouldn't want to live with.I'm not wrong or right, this is just how I feel.

I'm supposed to be Catholic. I have my doubts on this whole god thing.

It honestly seems to me that Religion has always been a way of controlling people and scaring the "bejesus" out of them into behaving right.

To me, it seems that the Bible is filled with fairytales. There may have in fact a person roaming the earth named Jesus about 2010 years ago. Son of god though? Doesn't seem likely to me.

Virgins don't get pregnant without having intercourse. From what I understand though, back then the term "virgin" may have simply meant young woman not someone who hadn't had sex yet. So I think the story's gotten a bit twisted over a couple thousand years.

Also as someone who is "supposed" to be Catholic, I cannot supports or at one time supported the molesting young children. I think that forcing a man to "reject the flesh" or whatever they call it can really cause mental issues. If I was forced to not enjoy sex with a woman, who knows how messed up I would be. Look what happens in prisons, I've seen American Me. They start fucking whatever they can find.

I think I miss a couple words in that last paragraph

Same with me and the kids. The wife brings them to church, AND I SHOULD STEP UP, because the Man of the house is supposed to lead, especially when it comes to religion, but I just don't push myself. I would say I'm a Christian, but I doubt if MANY people can really follow the 10 Commandments the way they're REALLY supposed to be followed.

My daughter sometimes asks me why I don't go, and I always come up with some lame excuse.

I think religion has more to do with people than it has to do with God. If you compare each of the major religions and strip away all the cultural/regional embellishments, the core values are very much alike; those are the parts I pay attention to.

Some of my friends argue that God & people (or more specifically, their collective consciousness) are one and the same. I think it's an interesting theory that has some merit. Ultimately, I'm convinced that none of us -really- know what's going on; we only know what others have told us.

So do you think there is NO Afterlife?

Well, if you think about it, who can confirm what happens when someone dies?

If we had PROOF of what happens after a person dies, then that would be a different story.

Agreed. One of the core beliefs, however, is that whatever does happen after this life will be affected, either positively or negatively, by the choices one has made and the actions they've taken. I'll buy that.

That's if anything happens at all.

Damn, I said I would say anything but I can't help it.We'll some may label me as Agnostic but I chose not to label myself and basically open and neutral to it all.

Ill share some random thoughts that I've ad go through my mind at times.There more like questions:

1)I've often heard that if you do make it to Heaven when you die (assuming there's one) you will no longer feel pain or suffer. Feel no more sadness or depression.Basically anything negative.
Heres my problem with that. Im not gonna BS and say Im thankful for it but a lot of the bad things I've been through in my life have made me the stronger person I am now.Growing up struggling.Losing loved ones and broken hearts.Going through all this has helped made me respect a lot more things in life and try to be a better person. I think a lot of poeple feel the same way about themselves.
My question is, if you go to Heaven and no longer feel these negative things and forget you've been through them, then basically, you wouldn't actually be yourself because it is those hard things that made you who you are So what would be the point.How is it supposed to work out?


2)Another thing I think about (and not to get all cheesy). When I think about music and how I feel wen I create it and play my keyboard or even when I've DJ'd and played certain songs.The high you get from it. I think about the love for my Family and friends what I'd do for them and how I'd feel to loose them. All the Emotion we feel in life. It's hard for me to except that it's nothing more that chemical reactions going on in our body and brain.Of course thats what science would say and I respect it but where did it begin. Maybe I just want to believe it's from a higher power.

Like I said,these are not my final conclusions, just some things I think about.

I dont belive religion was made up to give life purpose, more as a way of controlling the masses as cmos said in his earlier post!

Like chris rock said back in the day we never had freezers! So Pork went off real quick, people were sick from rotten meat etc! So how do we get people to stop eating it?

Tell em god said dont eat it!

As for chaotic, we have peados in the church, rapists on the streets, murderers, etc etc! The place we live in is far from perfect how much more fucked up do u want it?

You got to practice preach and be nicer to some forum members :)

But again, that's assuming something DOES happen after someone dies.

Suppose it's proven that once you're gone, THAT'S IT?

What would be the purpose of life?

***Previous quote fail***

We are. Here's the way I figure it. Take my friend Candice. I've known her for many years. We've had many discussions about God and Jesus and Christianity. I've done my best to explain the concept to her and answer her questions about the faith. I've done what I can to actually walk my talk and NOT be a hypocrite. She's chosen to reject the message, and I respect her decision. We're still great friends, and she knows she can come to me with absolutely anything (religious or not), but at this point all I can do is express God's love toward her. Spreading the Word means that it's our job to inform, but it's between the person and God as to whether that individual chooses to be transformed.


I can't speak for the person you were replying to, but I don't believe that science and Christianity are at variance with each other. While it seems to be the general consensus that believing the Bible can only happen by forsaking scientific observation, that's not the case. There are plenty of cases where science can prove the Bible and events described there. By converse, a view fully independent of a higher deity still requires some degree of faith. The laws of physics are required to create the Big Bang, and thus could not be a result of the Big Bang (as is the energy itself). Abiogenesis (the process where living organisms came into being from inorganic matter) has been speculated but there has never been any concrete data to demonstrate how it happened here. The evolutionary chain has lots of organisms in it, but there are more missing links than actual organisms. I'm not trying to debate these issues, except to say that they all require faith, just like a belief in God does.


I get this one a lot. First off, I'll note that the 10% precedent was set by Abraham back in the Old Testament, so it's not like there were millions of people giving money at this point. If I were inventing a religion and I was going to put a sticker price on how much God said to hand over, I think it'd make sense to either ask for more up front, or to refine it later and have Jesus say that the church needs more money.

That said, two things here. First, the best way I've heard it described is very similar to the way you stated it - God made everything in creation, including the green pieces of paper in my wallet. It's all His, and I'm in charge of spending 90% of it. Now the 10% that's supposed to go to God, well if it's any consolation I stopped tithing at the church I grew up in some time ago because I felt that they were being poor stewards of that money; I've largely migrated to another church for a number of reasons, that being one of them. I also donate money to several other causes, including a pastor in Kenya who has shown me images of him helping to feed starving people there (and as we both know, there's no shortage of poverty over in Kenya). I also support people in my church that go on missions trips, yes to tell others about Jesus, but also to do service projects and help feed homeless people and do other things around the community of the 'host church'. Finally, I support an organization called Love146, an organization founded to end child sex trafficking and rehabilitate the children once they've escaped. It's these types of things that I believe God calls the church to get behind. By contrast, a friend of mine was in a meeting at a local church and heard something that made us both sick - the pastor actually had the audacity to say, "We're low on money, let's schedule a revival". If the church is broke, you seek God to see what *HIS* will is for it, you don't DARE invoke His name to pad your own pockets.

The church as a whole gets a bad rap for turning a quick buck and for the hypocrisy of the faithful, and unfortunately I can't blame those who feel this way, though I wish I could. All I can say is that I'm sorry for the example given by those who twist God's Word to their own personal gain, and realize that according to their own faith, they'll have to stand before God and answer for distorting it.



I hear this one a lot, too. It makes sense from the outside (and again I can't entirely disagree that it hasn't been used to such ends by different people throughout history), but two things here. Christianity is all about getting saved through mercy and grace. We receive mercy by not getting what we deserve (i.e. "the wages of sin is death..."), and grace is getting what we don't deserve ("...but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus"). If you're making a religion up for the purpose of controlling people, telling them that salvation is a free gift from God and that we can't earn it through our works seems rather ineffective if you ask me. Now, once we DO accept it then yeah, there is a higher moral standard we've agreed to adhere to. Married guys (and girls) - has your life changed just a smidge since you said "I do"? Same general concept here.

With regards to pork and the rules of Kosher, you're partially right. God knew that pork and shellfish and some of the other foods were poisonous if improperly cooked, so God told them not to eat it for their benefit. Others were for cultural reasons - not mixing meat and dairy fits this example, since the logic behind that was that it was a Pagan cultural norm of the day to eat meat and milk (in some cases doing extremely cruel things like boiling a calf alive in the mother's milk), and this rule was to set them apart. Some were more practical in nature - the camel, for example, was better used as a beast of burden as it could carry extremely heavy loads through the desert. If you slay your camel you're stuck carrying your own gear AND a bunch of camel meat. Some things we're still unaware of the reason and yeah, ultimately fits into the "God said don't do it so we're not going to do it out of love and respect for Him". Besides, it wouldn't take Aristotle to realize, "dude...Melchizadek had a pig roast and now everyone is throwing up!" A few of those pig roasts and people would have eventually figured it out, and it's not like they'd all want to come back for round two of the roast. The issue was to stop everyone from getting sick BEFORE it happened, and then prevent people from wasting water and animal feed on an animal that would ultimately get them sick if it survived in the desert long enough to actually provide any meat for the people.

(note: this next part is going to sound a smidge preachy, but that's not the intent, for whatever it's worth)
Finally, it was mentioned a few times here (and again something frequently stated) that a loving God wouldn't send people to suffer forever in a pit of fire. Two things here. First, I'm not entirely certain whether it's a literal burning sensation or a figurative fire, but I do know that it's a place of suffering and - more importantly - a permanent separation from God. The bigger issue to address here is the implication of the statement. If you agreed with the way I wrote it above (more or less), then hopefully you'll agree with this rewording: "I don't believe that a loving God could have everyone ready to come to heaven, then choose to cast certain people to hell and not others." This really is backwards to the way the Bible explains it. It's more like God gave me a choice, I chose the path apart from Him, and I was destined for hell to spend eternity paying off my debt. Instead, Jesus came and paid it for me, so that I could be pardoned. Someone earlier asked how I knew if I was forgiven. Well, if the Bible is true, then God made it abundantly clear that I am forgiven. If the Bible isn't true, and I'm spending my life being kind and loving to the people around me, paying my taxes, help end child sex slavery, not downloading tracks off of limewire, encouraging others to do the same, and in a couple decades all that's left of me is some worm food, a couple megs of data in the -Facebook/Google database, and a legacy of doing my best to honor and serve a God that doesn't exist, well then I can live with that. Either way, it goes back to simply being a matter of faith.

Joey

Blind belief in something that people dont understand, failure to question what your told, listening to a leader and following what they say unwavering, and group mentality (wanting to belong) are the most devisive things in the world today, not only in religion but even in modern politics. Its a followers mentality that is devoid of critical thinking. And that mentality is responsible for most if not all of the problems the world is going through today.

Hmmm...good point...

Some random thoughts I'VE HAD...

Ok, lets say your parents die at the age of 90, and you're 60 when they die. Your last rememberances of them are at 90, and they of you at 60.

Now let's say 30 years later, YOU die at the age of 90, and your kids are now 60.

So when you get to heaven, and join others, "How old do they perceive you?" 60 as of when they (your parents) last saw you, or 90, your current age at death?

Or will those who you meet just "see" you as whatever age you were when they last saw you, and you saw them?

there isnt one! Your sole purpose is to eat sleep shit & pro create! Hey dont feel bad! over here in the uk for a month or so we even had busses with advertising on them telling the whole of london there isnt a god.

& as of age surely seeing as its the best place ever (heaven) you get to be 21 again! lol

Ok, I eat porkchops all day, everyday if I could....and that pork thing may be limited to certain religions, but I get what you're saying...

Someone said that the Commandments are merely "Laws", but isn't that OK?

I mean, we as a people NEED some type of guidelines to live by, correct?

Like say for example, they never said, "Thou Shall Not Kill", and we had people just offing each other for whatever reason, without fear of punishment, doesn't the "Laws" at that time just make SENSE?

Also, I'm skeptical that someone LESS than a higher power was knowledgeable enough to come up with some barebones rules to Live By, (10 Commandments), that have TRULY stood the test of time.

There are man-made laws that keep getting diluted, and washed away as time goes on, but those Commandments seem to hold steady. Not that people are FOLLOWING THEM, but that the Majority of people agree with them, and that a LOT of them are actual MODERN Laws.

LOL! Good point. That whole Catholic Preists thing with Kids is crazy.

Those havent changed (at least most of them) because they existed BEFORE they were "commandments" their the basic rules that kinda have to exist to have a societey function properly. Thats why they came up with the commandments idea, because then they couldnt prove if you did any of this stuff they didnt have CSI, fingerprinting, DNA, Video cameras so there were no consequenses as long as you didnt just do it publicly, so they came up with the idea that hey even if we dont get you and you get away with it your STILL fucked because him sees EVERYTHING.

Nothing wrong with having these rules or the being to enforce them but what happens when you set these to a religion and then set that religion to a worldwide stage is you have people clashing with others about the details of their beliefs and people thinking that everyone should think like them. Ya thou shall not kill is a GREAT rule, but when the belief system that governs that rule causes a war where millions die the system is no longer working properly. Most of these belief systems (aside from mine FSM for the win) dont teach you to just live your life right and leave others along, they call for you to go out and get in others busniess and thtas not right.

Joey, you are very well spoken man.

Agreed, and you'll be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't. However, realize that:

1.) The church and God are two different things.
2.) Neither of the above condoned what they did; the priests were acting in clear variance to both.
3.) Every group of people has their outliers that give the group as a whole a bad rap. Ever have to sell yourself to a bride or club owner who judges your skill by DJ Pauly D or some craigslist kid who plays DJ Hero during the event? sucks, doesn't it?

Just sayin'.

Joey

how my belief system handles people of different belief systems

Second Letter From Edd to the Forum Members


1 One day an elderly couple gathered their four children, two sons and two daughters, together for a serious discussion. 2 When all were present they asked, ‘What are your views regarding the afterlife, religion, or spirituality in general?’

3 Now, it was known that the couple was in the process of drawing up their Last Will and Testament. 4 Over the years, their wealth had grown to an envious amount. 5 The children felt that their inheritance might be influenced by their responses.

6 But they were strong, independent thinkers and they all knew that their parents respected honesty, so each child resolved to speak the truth, no matter what the consequences.

7 The eldest son spoke up first: ‘Mother, Father, I have never hidden my feelings on this matter; I proudly consider myself an atheist. 8 All observable evidence supports the idea of a universe capable of running itself without the benefit of a guiding or creative hand. 9 And every god that I have ever heard of seems more likely to be wishful thinking, fable, or myth. 10 When supportable evidence is presented that indicates otherwise, I will reconsider my position, but until then, I will look to science to answer all my questions and solve all my problems.’

11 The oldest daughter responded next: ‘I respect my brother’s opinion but I cannot commit to such an inflexible attitude. 12 I agree that no evidence can be shown to prove a god’s existence but no evidence can be shown proving a god’s non-existence, either. 13 Without proof, reasonable doubt must prevail. 14 The world is full of many wondrous things in an arguably infinite amount of space; to say with conviction that something cannot exist is indicative of hubris.’

15 Without responding, the parents looked to the next son. 16 ‘I have not been shy in regard to my faith, either,’ he laughed. 17 ‘Anyone who would like to hear how I decided that the path I have chosen is the true path to enlightenment I will gladly regale. 18 Come to me with an open mind and the truth shall reveal itself to you. 19 Worry not about insulting me, my conviction is based upon a power higher than anything of this world.’

20 All eyes turned to the youngest daughter. 21 She sighed, took a deep breath and drew herself up, as if expecting an attack. 22 ‘Mother and Father, I love you very much, but you ask a question I find difficult to answer. 23 My beliefs are of a personal and private nature; so much so that it is painful to bring myself to express them, even to you. 24 I beg you, judge me by my actions, not my motives. 25 Do I not endeavour to help others and not harm them? 26 Am I not compassionate? 27 Have you found me to be cruel in any way? 28 What difference does it make what thoughts lie in my mind if my behaviour is commendable? 29 Any views I have should be considered as valid as the others, no matter what they are. 30 Leave me out of your will if you must, but that is my final response.’

31 The parents exchanged a shocked look. 32 ‘Leave you out of our will?!’ they exclaimed. 33 ‘We were merely curious! 34 Our will is already complete. 35 You will all get an equal share of the estate, regardless of your views. 36 We love you all equally. 37 Silly children, we only want you to feel comfortable discussing any and all topics with us.’

38 Verily the elderly couple had much of the FSM within them, for they understood that each of their children felt strongly concerning their respective viewpoints and not one was deserving of punishment or disregard. 39 When the sad day arrived and each heir received their one fifth share of their parents’ estate, they felt proud to carry on the legacy of tolerance and respect.

40 (And yes, the four children each received one fifth of the inheritance; the remaining portion was split amongst the household pets. 41 Unfortunately, the parents shared another trait of the FSM and were frequently intoxicated.)

42 May you identify more with the parents of this parable than one of the children (except for the ‘frequently intoxicated’ part).

RAmen

I thank God for giving us this opportunity to discuss or beliefs and thoughts.

I believe that the Bible is the undeniable truth, the wisdom of our creator a manual to how to live a great life.

Before I began my walk with Christ I was the most awful Father, Husband and friend. I lost everything due to my selfishness. I spent all my time trying to make more money and pleasing my desires by any means possible. My wife and kids hated me for not spending any time with them. They would go to church and I would refuse to go with them. Well I lost it all the family, house, friends and so began to drink my life away.

When I began to walk with our lord Jesus, Slowly but surely he began to transform me into a new man and began to give me back everything I had lost. He has done wonders for me that I am unable to ever repay.

The only way I was able to believe was to lose everything and have no one to turn. Guess who we turn to when there is nothing left?

I'd have to say, (and I guess it's still not too late for it to happen...but) it's cool that we can sit here and have a reasonable discussion, ask questions, present views, and open our minds to what others believe without the usual flaming.

Most would think a thread like this would go down in flames, but as most can see, it's very civil...with a few distractions, but still very civil.

The truth is that a recent DJ friend of mine started saying stuff like he was Blessed with all that he's gotten, and I thought that was MADDDD COOL.

So, hey, why not chop it up here?

Don't worry, I won't be donning a collar anytime soon, but it's cool to be able to talk about ANYTHING on this board.

What's the purpose of life either way? That's a question we'll probably never be able to "get" through our limited understanding (which is where faith comes in). However, I consider science sort of a major religion as well, and it says that energy cannot be created or destroyed. While I'm not so certain that whatever makes me "me" will remain intact after death (since energy tends to dissipate in multiple directions once the source has ceased to be), I do believe that whatever energy source is behind life itself must go -somewhere-.

I concur; great discussion so far.

Its a human trait to think there needs to be a purpose to anything

Ok, so how do you guys who consider yourself real Christians relate to music and djing...
Cuz as far as I understand, if you are fully walking in the word, you should strive to keep your mind pure and some of the stuff we may play while djing may be in discord with that. House music may be ok becuase I hear alot of uplifting themes in the genre, but some other genres are not that sanitized.

A *VERY* good question, Mr. Rabbit. It's one I've wrestled with for some time myself, and continually do. Here's the best answer I can give you...

First, I'm a mobile jock, not a club jock. Thus, I'm not expected to play songs whose themes are at variance with Godly principles. In fact, many of my clients hire me on that basis. Next, I do what I can to filter out and flat-out not carry songs I know are at odds with Biblical principles. When I get my PrimeCuts CDs in the mail, I listen through them and try to immediately avoid the tracks I know will compromise those principles. When I grab Crooklyn Clan tracks, I listen to them in their entirety and make my own derivative custom edits that remove pieces I feel are inappropriate. Finally, no matter where the line is drawn, I know that there will always be a few tracks that straddle that line. At this point, I get my clients involved and ask about them on a song-by-song basis and let them decide what they feel is acceptable, providing lyrics sheets if they need. So far, this system has served me well.

Joey

That reminds me of the radio station out here. They do an "inspirational vitamin" which is just a scripture and a short sermon from a local preacher. I find it hypocritical because it's always sandwiched between some supper thugged out hip hop or some raunchy sex infused song.

THIS is something that occassionally grips me, because I'm in a spot of either JUST playing what I feel is "appropriate", not necessarily non-secular, but at least "Decent", but on the other hand, I need to chase a check.

I figure at LEAST stay in the mix so that, even if I DO play some music I personally DON'T agree with, I can mix in music that IS Tasteful and uplifting.

Man, i didn't really think some cats took it that seriously. Most times, I hear any ol' DJ play ANY OLE' THING, regardless of who is in attendance, agewise or otherwise.

For those who "DON'T" believe in higher powers, do you believe in KARMA?

I do. I think for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

It may not show up immediately when you do the offending act, but I strongly believe it will catch up to you.

Isn't belief in Karma the same as believing in some higher power?

There wouldnt be no damn suicide bombers i tell you that much lol.

Karma is another principle idea to make you feel better. "look that guy did some fucked up his..................i didnt stop him from doing it..........he will get his....karma"

These are all ways to get you to forget about whats really going on. Take responsibility for youself and stop waiting for mystical forces to make things right is how i see it.

+1

+1000

So if you saw someone doing some crazy *ish, you'd risk yourself to get involved?

No but i wouldnt think that because of his bad deed, bad things will happen to them to make up for their bad deed and equal everything out.

Its a way to make people feel good about being good. Because if you are bad, karma will eventually get you, its another scare tactic to keep you from doing bad stuff.

Its all a mind fuck to keep people in line.

I'm not too sure about that though. Because I've was doing bad stuff WAYYYY before I found out about Karma....and could never figure out why I never "got away with anything", ultimately.

Once I found out what Karma "was", well, I "tested" it...

And EVERY SINGLE TIME, I call myself "Getting Over", it would come back to haunt me, but with a smidge OVER what I did, just to let me know.

When I chilled, and did GOOD stuff, like "Genuine" stuff, (that I may not even have realized was "Good" at the time), I always got rewarded 3-Fold.

It's like I tried to apply a scientific method of testing a faith based concept.

Brainwashed.

You are conditioned to think that you have to be good for some reason than just to be good for the sake of being good.

You may have just been a bad criminal. Or whatever you were getting over on lol.




I see the whole religion idea as just put together. If you really step back and look at it. Its a sloppy job of putting it together.

There were over 50 different gospels written, only 4 made it into the bible. There are waayyyyy too many similarities between Jesus and Horus for me to think any of it is true. If they would fake just one teeeeny tiny story in that book, to me, the whole thing cant be believed.

The whole story of Jesus is a ripoff in my eyes. The basically jacked Horus' entrie storyline.

Jesus, born to virgin.
Horus, born to virgin.

Jesus, only son of Yehovah (god)
Horus, only son of Osiris (god)

Jesus, born to Miriam (now referred to as Mary)
Horus, born to Isis-Meri

Jesus' foster father, Joseph.
Horus foster father, Seb (aka Jo-Seph)

Mary told she was pregnant by an angel.
Isis told the same thing.

Jesus' birthdate - Born during the fall. However, his birth date is now celebrated on DEC-25. The date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc.

Horus birthdate - Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (about DEC-21). In reality, he had no birth date; he was not a human.

Witnesses to Jesus birth: 3 wisemen
Witnesses to Horus birth: 3 solar deities


Jesus was given a death threat by Herod as a baby.
Horus was given a death threat by Herut as a baby.

Jesus - no data between 12 and 30
Horus - No data between 12 and 30

Jesus was baptized at age 30
Horus was baptized at age 30

Jesus was baptized by John the baptist
Horus was baptized by Anup the baptizer.

John the Baptist was beheaded.
Anup the baptizer was also beheaded.















Jesus was born sometime between 4 and 7 BC.
Horus was worshipped thousands of years before the first century.






How can there be this many coincidences?

Who the hell is Horus?

My hell would be bunch of fat naked Asian chicks

Egyptian god of war and the sky, oldest of all egyptian gods

Even the conception and birth storys are ripoffs, we celebrate christmas as his birth but has anyone realised that this coincidentially corresponds with the winter solstice, which was already celebrated on the roman calender and was also celebrated by pagans? 9 months eaerlier (his conception) is the spring equinox.....a date celebrated by pagans as a fertility holiday loooong before jesus was supposidley born??

I hear people say this alot and its funney to me because in their storys (yours may be different) they usually say shit like oh i was in a gang or i was druggin or robbin ect and really bad shit kept commin back on me but then i calmed down became a family man and started going to church and good things started happenin.

Thats not karma, if your doing bad stuff bad things will happen to you buecause your putting in yourself in bad situations, if your in a gang, druggin, robbin ect your putting yourself around others who are doin ill shit, and putting yourself in the way and around more bad things than youd be around than if you are in church around people who arent doin fucked up stuff. But people in that church still get in car accidents and chld rapists have won the lottery.

Also like i said before its a trait of man to look for a reason for everything, iff something really bad happens they dont look at the good things that have happened to them, they look through their memory and they find what they consider a reason of why the bad thing happend. And when really good stuff happend to them their not thinking about all the bad stuff they did that should have counteracted it.

I wasn't in any gangs or risky endeavors. I was always a good guy who did SOME bad things on the low. Actually, that was part of my cover, as everybody assumed that "I" wouldn't possibly do any wrong, so I got away with mad *ish.

There were no outwardly noticable changes in my behavior, I always did my dirt on the lonesome, would never trust anybody, and it still caught up to me.

I watched a pretty good documentary not too long ago. I recommend it to anyone who wants to understand more about the history of christianity. Zeitgeist: the Movie

Remember, do your own research!

It's on youtube for free www.youtube.com view. Peep it when you get a chance.

I have one everyone should watch too... bill maher Religulous

Bezzle maybe you or CMOS can start "the official atheist" thread...

It is easy to think that God is not real if you never experienced anything faith based. I know a couple of athesist in real life and I don't waste time debating with them, I just feel sorry for them.. They cool people otherwsie, we just don't get into religious discussions..

I wouldnt feel right starting that thread since im not an atheist

which kinda proves the point of the "athesist", anything thats real should hold up to questioning, if your belief system is real it should be able to hold up in a debate, but instead of answering questions people with strong belief systems just throw out "just because" answers or run and hide or get pissy when they have a conversation with someone whos ideas differ. If someone questions something and it disturbs you and you dont feel confortable talking about it then odds are its not an air tight belief. If the whole point to christianity is to be more christ like, do you think christ said "i dont wanna discuss this" when people stepped up to him with questions or comments?

good point, m-bezzle.

i watched that Religilous movie. That movie cracked me up.

Nobody is saying "Just Because", or running and hiding. I've responded to everything CMOS has said.

It not that it's not tight belief, it's just I can't be bothered sometimes, I am not at proficient at rambling scriptures and thirdly sometimes I just hate arguing with stupid mofo's.

wasnt referring to you

So their stupid just because they dont agree with you??

LOL ya i dont completley agree with maher, hes kinda a hypocrit because hes JUST as close minded as the people he argues with are but its still hillarious to watch him work.

Did you know, there is no other evidence that Jews were slaves other then in the bible? Not in text books or encyclopedias.

huh never heard that ill have to look into that, kinda cool if true

en.wikipedia.org

im not sure of this but i think slavery was kinda prominant back then, like when an army took over a city they took people as slaves. So i dont disbelieve that there were masses of jewish slaves, but i dont think they cornered the market on it. I know egypt was big into slaves so i dont sout the validity of those claims

Not necessarily, it's just that folks I know who happened to be athesits really are stupid mofo - example one of them is the guy from my other thread who threw himself into traffic..

ok i understand now lol

The story of the jews being freed was only in the bible too.

Here's what the bible says about slaves:
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Here's a few verses from Jesus regarding slavery:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

LOL@ get out of our thread with your different thoughts. That was funny. I respect your right to say im full of shit.

Though Id rather hear your reasoning as to why you think its all true?

+1

Hmmm, you say your not an atheist Bezzle, but half your post in this thread are an attempt at comic relief and the others are hmmm - you just seem to be posting for the sake for posting...



Now for you CMOS:


That is a broad statement, what exactly has science debunked?





What, exactly are you saying then: you don't believe in religion or you can't be bothered to follow its principles..

Dont believe in religion. Went through the motions because its how i was brought up.


As for the science thing, if the book was true, there wouldnt be fossils from millions on years ago here on earth. The book says the universe isnt that old.

The whole creation thing is bubkus, if the book is true, there were 3 days and nights before he created the sun.

I dont remember the exact terminology but didnt God take like 5 or six days just to create the earth, sun, and moon. Then in 1 fell swoop "he created the stars". This type of belief system would make sense to someone who thought the earth was the center of the world at the time they wrote it.

If the book was true then man and dinosaur would have coexisted throughout the entire dinosaur history. Science says them dino bones are waaaaay older than any man.


These are just a few off the top of the head.

Trying to nail down a timeline in a book that says a day can be the same as 1000 years (depending on who you ask) is a futile effort to say the least.

Just want to chime in before this gets into a flame war or locked.

I was raised Catholic, went thru all of the church stuff, was an altar boy (no touchie, no misquote) and I'm getting married in October in the church. I have to say firstly that getting married in the Catholic church, you have to jump thru a lot of hurdles, and there could be even more if I wasn't opting for the non member status and paying extra for the wedding.

I have what I would assume is a pretty standard view of religion if your a non practicing Catholic. I make it a point to pray every day, actually it' not really a point, it's just something I do without thinking I have to. Like others I pretty much try to be the best person I can be, and that means pretty much following the commandments, save for a few (because I'm not practicing I don't "observe" the "sabbath") and yes it's pretty easy since they are mostly laws etc.

I'm pretty comfortable with the way I do things because right now it's how I choose to do it, right or wrong in the churches eyes, it's how I do it. I like to pretty much sum it up from a loose quote from Dogma, it's not what you believe in, it's that you actually believe.

I really dont see where i was attempting comic relief, pretty much everything ive written in this thread represents my acutual views. My views may be different than most but on this topic they are just as valid as anyone elses.

Also I dotn think you really know what an atheist is, an atheist is a person who dosent believe there is a god, that has no correlation to attempts at funney posts and posting for postings sake.

the bible also says a day to God is like a 1000 days for man..

If you believe in dinosaurs, you need to reread the bible. You must've skipped a chapter or two :P

the bible says dinosaurs don't exist?

according to sarah palin via her knowledge of the good book dinosaurs didnt exist, the fossils scientists find were put there by the devil to try and confuse you and convince you that god dosent exist....Palin '12

Who is sarah palin? I doubt shes even read it one time through. The bible doesn't say anything about the devil doing stuff with fossils, but it does say woah to anyone who adds or takes away from the word.

also alot of creationists believe that dinosaurs and man coesisted

Well, I know your not as stupid as you pretend to be.. hence my conclusion..



I think I read or heard something like that on one of these christian radio stations...

Btw, I just watch Angels and Demons, interesting movie, I liked the part where it talked about science and religion coexisting..

Absolute poppycock the lot of it...

The most intelligent form of design is evolution....
To an all-knowing all powerful being time is meaningless, so the difference between creation and evolution is... there is no difference

science and religion don't coexist.. THEY ARE THE SAME THING

Probably right with ya!

or the complete opposite its one of the 2 i keep forgetting which

Evolution hmmm - I am waiting for my healing factor, my telepathy, and ability to fly to kick in(fingers crossed), but its not going to happen... Humans been stuck in the same evolution form for decades, so I don't know about that evolution mumbo jumbo..

FACEPALM!! Evolution isnt an elevator to awsomeness its the ability to grow and adapt the necessary traits to survive in your enviroment, we are the top of the food chain so theres no need to evolve protection traits, we evolve with our brains and even though a great deal of our population is functionally retarted you cant deny weve grown smarter.

If anything i think its religion that stunted our evolution, in other species the weak are left to die off leaving the strong to survive and breed. Humans go out of their way to save and protect our weak.

I always say if you beleive in god then you'r not really free

Guess you didn't get the sarcasm(with the x-men reference)..

Religion stunted our evolution.. *sighs* If you don't know anything about religion - just leave the thread only.. no one will take it personal..

I grew up Catholic, went to Catholc schools, worked in the Rectory (priests' home for those who don't know), coached CYO sports, and helped teach CCD (religion class) for a while.
I even borrowed a piest friend's shirt to be a priest for halloween once.
When procedure changes came in the pastor would say " we need to convince the people" that this is the way to do things because....

Religion is a man made institution.
It was created by the "educated" and leaders to control the masses and to explain the unknown. If it can't be explained then you take it on faith.
As mentioned, many of the religions have similar or identical story lines or "characters" in the stories.
My in-laws are a mix of Christian and Buddhist and there are a number of similarities there too.
I am somewhre in between where I kind of believe there is something but am not sure what the "truth" is. I still pray somtimes and ask for hlpe and guidance to do the right thing etc.
One quote I remember is that I'd rather live like there's a God and find I was wrong than to live like there is no God and find that there is.

The Catholic Church got it's biggest push when Constantine converted and used it to strengthen his power base. He lead the way to establishing the books in the New Testament. Over the years the church had great power over nations and their leaders. Popes had mistresses and even children.
Wars have been fought in the name of religion and that continues today.
Relgions are in a way like unions today. Union people get very "religious" about their union. In religion they are trying to convert everyone or squash those who won't convert. Unions want everyone "organized" wether you want it or not. Religion and unions have both become self serving groups trying to expand to enrich the organization. The church/union gets richer as it grows while the little people are numbers and pawns of the group. And yes I was a union member because the place I worked required it and when I needed something I was just put off.
End of tangent...

The new testament is a sham. Read the old testament, be scared, hide under your bed, and remember that god is really a blood lusting jealous person who will kill kill kill.

Splain' Lucy.

Didn't bother to read anything in this thread yet, but there is no credible support for god--Occam's Razor says "sorry."

--

That said, FSM FTW.

Possible answer #1: many people (myself included) contend that god's omniscience (and therefore a deterministic universe) is incompatible with free will.

Possible answer #2: if you live your life by a prescribed code, you are not free.

which brings up another valid point, the god from the old testimant was mean and vengful, very WORSHIP ME OR ELSE. Then in the new testimant he was loving and forgiving. All powerful omnipitant beings dont have personality changes, the reason this happened is because they were scaring people off and they needed grow their numbers

I know a great deal more than you think as unlike your average blind follower i try to learn as much as each religion as possible. But try to not think like your average blind follower for a second and acutually think about this . In every other species on the planet weak offspring are left to die, if a mother gives birth to a deseased offspring or a retarded puppy the pack leaves it and some pretator comes along and eats the damn thing, that way the abnormal genes arent passed on to future generations thereby preenting the problem from spreading. Since religion tells is that humans are somehow different and we have "souls" that make us special and that its our job to protect everyone and everything we protect the weak, sick and abnormal. We prolong the life of people who have lived their time and because of this we pass on genetic problems, deseases, abnormalities, and raise our population to dangerous numbers beonod what the natural process can support.

Even on a scientific level it stunts us. If you look at cloning, stem cells, and tons of other scientific research that could teach us massive amounts of information about the human body and cure countless deseases yet they cant because its not "morally right" because several conflicting books were written thousands of years ago to keep people in line .

We cant even get along as a people because of these books, look at all the religious wars and the conflicts in the middle east where you have constant war and fighting because the people the left side of the imaginary line read a fictional book that differs from those on the right imaginary line. These books were great when people couldnt travel far and everything was reigonal because each set of standards could deal with the problems and dispositions of a particular people in a reigon. But we live in a worldwide community where i can simotaniously chat with a person in japan norway and canada all at once and hop on a plane and visit all 3 in a given week. People retain the ideas from these reigonal books and hold so strong to them that they think its the only way and everyone must adapt to their set of standards. Its ridiculous.

Religion causes wars, seperation and hatred.. pretty much all the world wars happend is cause of religion especially the war were in now. Why dont we have sepation of church and state? and why do we have in god we trust printed on our money, thats rediculous and offensive. As an atheist i cant prove or disprove that god is or isnt real, but by using reason and logic i can tell you that he is not. Why cant people just say i dont know? Yea im sure god created everything including the human eye and lung, do yall have any idea how complex those 2 parts are? Yea he created complex parts but our immune systems are weak and our teeth fall out. Sorry but he couldve done more than a half ass creation job. Back in the early times they used to think diseases and plagues were the devils work, but we now know that it wasnt. They thought the earth was flat, yea ooooook. There is no such thing as a soul, thats just an expression and there are no miracles either. The only higher power we have is energy, theres bad and good energy thats it. I cant beleive after thousands of years people still beleive in the bible bullsh*t. I think the worst religions out there is christinity and islam. Christians always try to push that bullsh*t that i need to be saved. saved from what?? yea ok buddy.. And muslims well you know they allow beating of women and stoning people to death and look down on women. and they say religion is a good thing.. yea and santa clause is my cousin.. and whats the deal with ban on gay marriage, i mean who really gives a sh*t, thats obviously a christian hangup. Free country my ass. Im done with this rant i can keep going and going. peace

I don't think religion causes wars, but it can (and has) certainly been used as a tool to justify them. People cause wars; if they didn't have religion as a rallying point it would be replaced with some other "cause".

If what you say were true then every religious person would be willing to kill for it, and I can assure you that's not the case at all.

I have to disagree with you there. WOMEN are the #1 reason behind war and things that make us go crazy. Every single war had SOMETHING to do with a woman.



I like the analogy of the mother cub seeing that they had a diseased cub, and would leave it so the other animals would slay it, thus stopping the spread of that bad gene. If they applied that same principle to humans, healthcare cost would be at a minimum.



But IMO, you're contradicting yourself. to assign a human trait to energy is the same as believing in the unknown. God, Karma, etc..etc.



I personally don't believe in gay marriage, and YES I'm a "Christian'. But not because GOD says so, but moreso because it uses up resources that were specifically put aside for us who DO take the plunge and throw a rock on her finger. Why should THEY be happy, and use up our "Tax Breaks, and Refunds"? Save that for those who are truly taking one for the team.



I don't understand what a "Free Country" has to do with your rant. That's controlled by the GOV'T, not churches, but I can see how some people would argue differently.

Name one thats not

mother teresa!

hahaha

lol oops i misread i thought he wrote every religion would be willing to kill for it

You invalidated your entire post with this statement.

True

^ but you have to include the sentence that follows it to really invalidate it



Its a hypocritical statment, you ask why people cant admit they dont know but RIGHT after you say that logic indicates there isnt one

Agreed.

Ok... Here's s couple questions for you none God loving folks..
Do you guys believe in satanic or demonic forces?
Do you guys believe in ghosts?
Because according to your logic - if God is not real. Neither is satan..

There are entities out here that can mess ya up if you dabble too deep..

I have neither belief nor disbelief on either case but i do dout that either exist. Most ghost cases are caused by ones own subconscience mind. Which is why most are the same across the board

Also alot of the old school ghost and demon storys are the same as the old gods and goddess storys. It was a way of explaining things they didnt understand. For example the voodoo practices in new orleans believed highly in the undead and zombies. Its now well known that this was caused because of the soil construction of new orleans. Since its below sea level and constantly wet its impossible for us to bury our dead in most places. The bodys rise to the top, thats why we have above ground cemetarys. But back in the day when that knowlede didnt exist theyd see body that had been previously buried or an empty gave (also caused by grave robbers) and they would just assume the body came back to life and dug its way out.

Also you can look at most old day stories about satanic possession and they are obviously people with mental illnesses that we can easily classify and treat today

No...You really don't know what you're talking about bezzle... What happens when stuff happens when you're wake.. I would post a personal experience, but it will be laughable to some.. Just how I used to laugh at some of the supersitious stories I heard growing up...
But I know for SURE, their is some stuff ya just don't want to F around with - stuff that will make ya shit your pants and breakout in a cold sweat..

you dont think your subconscience is at work while your awake?? Theyve done scientific experiments where they run an electrical current to stimulate a particular part of the subconscience and in every case the person recieving the current report the feeling of a "presence" in the room with them


Or how about this

ya its called heroin and theres nothing supernatural about it

War is not caused by religion, war is caused by evil greedy people. Religion is their front.

War is caused by WOMEN.

You 100% right......and religion has been their front since evil greedy people started the concept of religions thousands of years ago

I mean yes women are the root of all evil, but its only when the women has completely transformed the man into evil and greedy

Remember people that claimed they were "religious" killed Jesus, and the bible says there is only one true religion that is pleasing to Him. That religion is to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Snap!

yeah thats based on nothing. Evil greedy people started religion? How was muhammed, jesus, abraham or any of them greedy?

Those guys may not have been but I dont consider those guys as the founders of "religion". Those guys had some great teaching, then the people after them took those teachings and used them for personal gain. For example which book of the bible did jesus hiself write?? How many churches did he physically build and profit from?

In current day context mother teresa was a great nonselfish person who was a great example of how to live.....if i make a blockbuster movie about her life and advertise it and market it sell tickets to it and start selling mother teresa coffee mugs at burger king, and make a mother teresa xbox game I may be using her selfless ideas but my motives are 100% in the opposite direction for everything she stood for. Even if the movie promotes her great values.

For a bunch of dude that play records, some of you are some smart deep thinking mother funkers.

Thanks!

I play mad Kirk Franklin music at parties

The reason i put i cant prove or disprove theres god or no god, is cause i knew one of yall would ask me that question thats why i said, and then to back that up i said but by using reason and logic i know there isnt one, there surely is not one shred of evidence of god devil heaven hell ghost etc.. And yes religion caused most wars in the world. Name one war or revolution that hasnt been caused by religious beleifs.
no i dont beleive in satanic or demonic forces
no i dont beleive in ghosts. And yes neither god or satan is real, its just us, and all of us have only one life to live, since theres no proof of afterlife, so live your life to the fullest and make the best of it.

I always choose restaurants run by religious people. I would rather have a guy cook my food who believes there is someone watching him do it.

lol
true

Why did you even post this if the author contradicts himself in the last paragraph..




I'll give you guys a pass on the paranormal stuff because I was once a big skeptic once upon a time, and called it all bullshit..until....

^ until nothing, yea exactly..
yall still have no proof of a higher power or a creator or afterlife.. souls, miracles and luck are all just expressions anyway theres no such thing.

I want to see Criss Angel turn water into wine.

I bet he could do it.

criss angel is a fake, its all just illusions

I got my PROOF, unfortunately you don't..... Not really my place to convince anyone of anything...maybe one day you'll come around, maybe not...

But you can stay a uninformed non-believer..

My point exactly

Your proof is all in your head buddy

So what made you a believer?

what believer? i dont beleive in anything unless theres evidence and proof

Ok, so where did man come from?

ok... prove to me that you are real

well noone really knows how the universe got started and they say we came from monkeys, which could be true since humans and monkeys have the same dna. but to assume that someone created us without any proof or evidence exept some book that was written thousands of years ago and they thought the earth was flat back then

yea ok what is this are you smarter than a 5th grader comon bro

I had experiences in things thereof....


Another question:
Prophetic dreams - How do you skeptics explain that? What does science have to say about that? Now, I am not talking about Bible days stuff - I am referring to current day -or should I within my lifetime.. Now, I knew/know people who dreams stuff, and it come true -REPEATEDLY. Now, the dreams are sometimes symbolic - but they would break it down for me and say - this means x,y,z would happen.. or person X is going to do such and such - and the dream always manifested a short time later...

Mystical or just luck?

i dont believe in anything either unless there is evidence and proof, thats why I 100% believe in Jesus.. More proof that Jesus is the Messiah then anything else in this universe. No joke.

yea im sure jesus is the messiah but not horus and hundreds of other gods. all you got is blind faith man thats all it is

I just woke up from a prophetic dream.
It was kind symbolic I think - but what I take from it is that this: this thread is going to get locked - but you never know - lets see what happens.

I'm typing to you, taking in what you're saying, and you're responding.

You said, "I don't believe in anything unless there's evidence and proof". So it's obvious that I'm real. So where did I come from? My parents, and their parents before them, and so on and so forth.

All that is REAL.

Now what started it? "You say no one really knows", so technically there's no proof according to you, so technically, I don't exist, because you can't prove where I came from, if we follow your logic.

Okaaayyyyy......like what?

It is NOT going to get locked.

Why bring Negative energy here? This is a healthy debate, and noone has taken this to the left.

Grown men talking.

Easy read what the author said



then read what i said as my stance on the issue



The author is saying the same thing i said, it can neither be proven or disproven. I was simply stating the scientific reasons that could possibly explain the phenomina that some people experience since you told me "i have no idea what im talking about" when i said that most if not all experiences can be explained scientifically

Ok I posted scientific reasons explaining most peoples experiences and you posted....err....well....you wont even say what happened...your right your proof trumps ours

What proof is there that he was a messiah??

Easy 1st of all like you said most are symbolic, dreams are abstract you can interpret them to mean whatever you want so when something happens its easy to look back and go OHHH THATS WHAT THEY WAS TRYING TO SAY. Also alot of people "predict things" that are things they already know. I was listening to a radio show yestersday and this lady called in saying she had phophectic dreams and her example was she dreampt her sis would die in 2 years and she did. Thing is she already knew her sister had advanced cancer, odds are in some conversation even in passing someone prob told her Drs gave her an ETA On how long she had from medical experience and a year isnt exactly a pinpoint date.

Also when your dreaming your subconscience brain (which is VERY powerful) is still thinking and calculating, sowhen you get this "bad feeling that something bad will happen tommarrow" it could be any number of things that have alread indicated such. Lets say some time durring the day you look and see your sure needles arent in your gig bag and you think hmmm i need to put those in the bag and you dont, yuor subconscience may be trying to remind you through dreaming because you KNOW your gig will not go as planned without needled. The next day you show up to the gig...no needles....OHHH I HAD A DREAM THAT SAID TODAY WOULD BE BAD IT WAS AN OMEN....nope it was just your brain at work as normal

Also look how many dreams evgery person has every night. Bad and good stuff happens EVERY DAY. Statistically its not off for some random thing that happens in some random dream to occur in reality SOMEWHERE.

This may be kinda hard for you to grasp (no diss this thread is fun lol) But you make it seem obvious your real....how do WE know your real...most of us have NEVER seen you in real life all we see are words, i know its right next to impossible but its not IMPOSSIBLE that none of you people are real, that theres some supercomputer somewhere postin requests to the things I type.

Even if one was to meet you in person theres no gaurentee of reality, you could be a dream, you could be a figimint of my imagination caused by some mental illness, right now i could be hooked up to a machine which is sending electrical inpulses to my brain simulating sight smell and touch and NONE of this is real even me typing.

The logic behind this is that everything i experience is simply electrical signals being sent from the nerves in my hands, nose, eyes, ears ect being sent to my brain which does MASSIVE calculations to put it all together and project a sense of awareness. Its not unfeasable to cosider the reality that you could artificially send those signals to the brain and paint a picture without the acutual material being there.

Ready to really have your mind fried......look around you, see how colorful everything is....none of those objects are acutually that color, its the the wavelength of the light that reflected off the object, the object retains some of the wavelength and bounces the rest off your eyes catch that and your brain processes that signal to give the object "color".

How about this...go in a room by yourself and close your eyes....now open them...whos to say your not opening your eyes for the 1st time in this reality....your memories are all just electrical signals stored from electrical input. Its not unfeasable that one could wipe it clean and puttheir own false electrical signals that would cause you to have memories up to the point where you opened your eyes causing you to BELIEVE you were that person who had been in that life all along who just walked into a room and closed his eyes for a second because some jackass on the internet told you too.


Do you really think thats air your breathing.....hmhmh

a) I actually did have such a dream
b) its called a joke
c) just a prediction bassed on the subject matter and the track record of some people involved
d) I hate this thread and hope it gets locked because I am a hater
e) bringing up getting locked like a little reminder hoping that it wont
f) I hope it gets locked because I hate religion
g) this thread is already full of negativity - you just dont see it

some of these are true, some of them are not, but they are all something to think about before accusing me of bringing negativity in here.

and one thing I have learned is that you can not assume that its grown men in here talking.

and yeah man - havnt you seen the Matrix

?

the alotof the matrix concept was acutually based not only on the context of several religions but on some basic philisophical questions and principles that go back hundreds of years

a. OK
b. OK, but not really.
c. I feel as though we (as a whole on this board), can discuss anything with some level of civility. It's called growth. Yeah, you're gonna have your jokesters, but most of us are tired of it, and can ignore them.
d. You're not a hater, you're something, but not a hater.
e. I've got that under control. You just don't see it.
f. Then why is your name AKIEM? I alway thought that was a reliously based name.
g. The little amount of negativity is grossly outweighed by the amount of positive energy, and those who are just curious about other religions.

I've seen it, but am not a movie buff, and don't often recall movie lines if there is a reference.

questioning something that dosent make sense is not negativity, also stating facts that show someone is most likley wrong is not negativity. It just seems like that when you dont have anything of substance to say back

No, you don't get it -symbolic meaning characters or places in the dream may not be a exact representation of themselves - for example in the dream, you may be a animal with a hairstyle just like your or warring your watch - something of the sort.. And I wasn't talking about self fulfilling profecies or impending consequences of aliments.. What's the scienfic explaination of dreaming about something, and it goes down almost exactly the same way as the dream a short time later?

Just because something "doesn't make sense to you" does NOT mean it doesn't make sense in general.

The Negativity comment is against something that makes sense to MILLIONS of people.

You are assuming the person who doesn't "believe" or has questions is "stating facts". That's BS.

Anything of substance to say back is up to the person who is on the receiving end. The person can respond back with "Substance", but that person receiving the information, may not UNDERSTAND IT, thus deem it not "Factual" or having "Substance".

Lol @ those wanting the thread locked - we discussed everything under the sun on this board - but people get uncomfortable at tabu topics...

If you don't want to discuss religion, don't read the thread - it's that simple.

Anything can be discussed as long as the thread is kept on track and those who want to sidetrack it are immediately exposed for what they're attempting, or how in can be interpreted in a "negative" manner.

if someone says they believe in ghosts and i state scientific evidence that demonstrates the logical reason behind most ghost experieces and the person replies with well i believe anyway. The believer is NOT presenting any facts, is not even considering the logic and reasoning behind the facts presented, and yet the one stating the facts is viewed as the "negative" one




This isnt logical either because for the millions who believe 1 religion there are eqaually other millions that think dosent make sense because it conflicts with what THEIR belief says makes sense. Just because something "makes sence" to someone dosent make it logical or correct. For something to be logically accurate it should be able to hold up to questioning, thats what the scientific method is theres for

you can use logic and reasoning to make an educated guess about how something will go down. In about half an hour im going to clock out for lunch, drive to fresh market, park in the spot i always will, buy 1 of the 4 things i have been getting from there recently, and drive back. This COULD all change but odds are do to the the facts I know, like when i get hungry, where the easiest to park is, my temperment of the moment, the wether, how much sleep i got ect ect my brain can pretty accuratley picture about what is going to happen. Same thing happens when your sleeping, your brain is doing a diagnostic of your body as well as processing the days information, memories, what youve learned ect. All that info could easily affect how your next day goes.

According to the laws of quantum physics and string theory, the whole time space equlibrium is only linear from our perspective. This would explain how people have prophetic dreams because they've allready experienced everything their just not aware of it consciously.

What is blind faith? There is way too much evidence for blind faith!

There is more evidence of Jesus being the messiah then the united states actually landing on the moon. The likelihood of success was calculated to be so small that it is inconceivable the moon landings could have actually taken place. Bill Kaysing has claimed that the chance of a successful landing on the moon was calculated to be 0.0017% (1 in 60,000).

In Science Speaks, Dr. Stoner looks at the probability that one man, Jesus Christ, could have fulfilled even 8 of the 300 prophecies that pertain to Him in the Bible. The probability of one man fulfilling all eight prophecies, the principal of probability is applied. Therefore, multiplying all eight probabilities together (1 times 2.8 x 105 x 103 x 102 x 103 x 103 x 105 x 103 x 104) gives us 2.8 x 1028, or for simplicity sake 1 x 1028 or 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

They say there is nothing in this universe that can match those probabilities, which would leave me to conclude that Jesus being the messiah is the truest thing mankind has ever known.

If you've never been in a deeply religious atmosphere or deeply religious people - then some things you will just never know..

lol WHAT EVIDENCE

all the prophecies fulfilled. Didn't I just post the probability of him fulfilling 8, but he fulfilled over 300.

your right cults do make you experience wierd things

String theory WOULD explain it but string theory and religious concepts dont really go hand and hand

what propheys were fulfilled??

Seriously? or are you being sarcastic?

How about I just give you the ones that he for sure could not have made happen on his own?

sure shoot away

That is deep.

but before you do remember that prophseys are funney things because its easy to look back in hindsight and say OH that was fulfilling a prophesey. Its the same with the nostrodomus propheceys which were intentially vague and given long enough time frame were bound to repeat (as most of his prophecys were things that had happened before). Also when dealing with old language stuff translations are often interprited TO fullfill a future prediction. Remember you can reorganise the letters of the book mobye dick to make prophecys that acutally occured when interpritted correctly

its also inaccurate, any and all evidence of this is taken from books we cant even identify if the man REALLY existed. On the other hand the people who landed on the moon are still alive and can be asked, theres also physical evidnce that we go into space and theyve brought things back.....we have NONE of this when it comes to religion, we have 0 physical evidence any of this happend except for books that all give differnt accounts and dont agree and have been translated dozens of times through several different languages.

Even if they faked the moon landing there alot more hard evidence that it happened.

All documentation of the moon landing indicates a common result that an DID land on the moon, even if their fake they all agree with the lie. The Koron for example says jesus WASNT the mesaiah, so right there we have conflicting evidence from an official source, one that has NOT been translated and butchered like the king james version of the bible

I understand what your saying, and I agree, thats why I believe in Jesus so much. Too many prophecies were fulfilled, and too many of them were very specific.

Look into all the prophecies about where he would be born. He couldn't of made that happen and thats something that is very specific. Look at the prophecies about His human lineage. This is also very specific, and theres a lot of them dealing with this. The prophecies on where he would die, how he would die, the prophecy that when he was being murdered none of his bones would be broken, which is interesting because during that time during a crucifixion it was common for the leg to be broken to speed up the death.

I have not found anything in other religions that even comes close to this kind of truth.

Bezzle, you say your not an atheist, so what is your official stance on religion?

No one really denies that he existed, Historians even recognize the existence of Jesus. So thats not an accurate point made.
The bible also is recognized as a historical reference. Theres a lot of proof out there bro if you just take the time to do a little study on it. Check out systematic theology.

You dont need blind faith to believe in Jesus, too much proof for all that.. But you do need faith to call him your lord and savior.

Agnostic, who practices pastafarian views

If the bible is a historical reference so is the koran and both of those storys CONFLICT

Nice distinction there. Makes sense.

I dont deny the people of the koran existed

Theres not though, every major religion has the "proof" that their right and the others are wrong. Yes its very obvious is you only study why your right but when you look into other belief systems its not so clear anymore.....its a FACT that the way these beilef systems are setup (that their right)that SOMEONE is wrong.

they deny christ is lord thats the only problem

yes but that religion states that jesus was NOT the mesiah

Gotchu, so NOBODY IS DISPUTING that Jesus was born. (Some will question if he came from a virgin), but not the fact that he was a living person.

i havent denied anything im simply pointing out loopholes in your argument

Nah bro, Ive done a lot of studies on different religions, and taken a lot of classes on it. Too many holes in the others. And none of them have prophecies being fulfilled like Jesus. Take mormonism for instance, how many times have they made a prophecy and it didn't come true so they revised their teachings.

If I ever found one prophecy in the bible that ended up being false then id have to stop believing right? But that will never happen, there is too many people trying to prove the bible wrong and its funny because it will never happen.

Thats what i've found in my studies with all the major religions. They all believe he was a good teacher, and a prophet they just dont believe he is the messiah. Which to me is crazy because how can you call him good yet not believe he is the messiah when he claims to be. That would mean he is a liar, and a false prophet, but all the mean religions are calling him a prophet and a good teacher.

I'm sorry can you restate the loopholes?

The bible your reading was rewritten and translated even if it WAS true its not the same official spoken word, if your going by book the koran holds more water because it was never tampered with. Both books were written by man and christianity you can look on real historical events that that religion as a whole was very corrupt institution.

You can be a good teacher of man and not be perfect, you can also be a GREAT teacher of man and not be a messiah

1st and formost that there is more evidence that jesus is the messiah than there is of man landing on the moon

I would normally agree with you except.. we still have the original manuscripts. Plus if there was a major discrepancy between translations like the kings james version (which was the first translation in english of the bible) or the niv with the original manuscripts it would be made known. People are always trying to find ways to discredit scripture yet it still hasn't been done.

Being agnostic - understandable..
Pastafarian - *shakes head and sighs*

There are christians that go to college and major in how to read the original manuscripts, so we have christians that are reading the original word spoken.

thats what i love about that belief system, if you really look into the idea behind it its genious. It shows the hypocracy of other religions like nothing else on earth. Someone can stand there and say that a big invisible man who just exists because he exists (with no evidence of) snapped his fingers and created existace, but say the EXACT same story but make the big invisible man pasta and its ridiculous

i disagree
"'With what can we compare the kingdom of God? It is like a grain of mustard seed"
quantium physics is the only rational model that fits this "word of god."
the only reason new age science and old world religion dont complement each other is the fact that they are 2000 years apart! people then thought the world was flat! no way they could comprehend jesus telling them how the word really is from a scientific viewpoint so analogies were used.
imho science readily confirms my belief that there is definietly more out there than any of us are even meant to comprehend. the fibonacci sequence, the divine proportion, sacred geometry. all of these reoccuring patterns found on the biggest scales and in the smallest calculations are conformation for me that there is a grandiose design at work.

Ill agree to all that...the problem is when you incorporate organised religion into it and start dealing with mans idea of the word of god as spoken through people and written in a book youl immediatley have people at odds with it...which is my greates beef with organised religion, the complete faliure and openness to adapt what was told to what we know know

oh n btw i was baptized, raised catholic and confirmed. now consider myself highly spiritual, but not a practitoner of any single religion. the "word of god" wasnt meant to be taken literally and man has twisted it to fulfill his own needs. im not against organized religion. whatever vessel you use to find spiritual wholeness is yours and yours alone. (good side of religion). more people on this planet have died over religion than anything else (bad side of religion). kinda like ying and yang.....ironic isnt it?

^ +1 on all of this

Ill agree to all that...the problem is when you incorporate organised religion into it and start dealing with mans idea of the word of god as spoken through people and written in a book youl immediatley have people at odds with it...which is my greates beef with organised religion, the complete faliure and openness to adapt what was told to what we know know
yep ive been saying it forever. religion is outdated! and people are at odds and killing each other because of it.

The big difference between the Koran's Mohamed and many others so called prophets is that they ruled by violence and war. Jesus rules thru peace and is the only one that didn't have to use violence. Jesus is God and no one can be as powerful as he is. He walked this earth and even the powerful and violent Roman empire feared him. Even the Devil and his demons know that he is the messiah.

i pray to gawd that i learn to quote correctly?

The crusades, the inquisition, salem witch trials, the destruction of sodom and gamora, people turned topillars of salt, what am i missing here i know im forgetting a few

I would normally agree with you except.. we still have the original manuscripts. Plus if there was a major discrepancy between translations like the kings james version (which was the first translation in english of the bible) or the niv with the original manuscripts it would be made known. People are always trying to find ways to discredit scripture yet it still hasn't been done.
so what about the gnostic gospels i.e book of jubilee, book of thomas, enoch ect?
just because emperor constantine and the rest of the church voted and decided these works which were written by the same apostles that wrote the official cannon went against jesus being divine they arent the word of god? and how could any man/men decide what should be considered the word of god?

+1

oh yea? show me that evidence

+1

He who has nothing to die for has nothing to live for.

well 1st off the person who aledgedly went is ALIVE and can bve asked

except the people dying are the ones NOT involved with the religion

prophecies my ass.. oh yea im this jesus came from a virgin pussy and popped his own mother's cherry thats a good one right. and your christian god is not a loving god at all, he she or it doesnt give a shit

Once again the people who did it are ALIVe, theres video footage, theres tons of paper doccumentation, the science behind it proves its possible, there were the thousands of people who helped build, load, and pack the rocket.....what do you have again...oh a book

Almost all of the traditions and celevrations in the christian holiday are about the same things and times of ones that the pagans did hundres of years before them, also as i said earlier god went through a HUUUUGE personality change between the old and new testiments which is indicitive of them changing things to attract membership

LOL, you must not be a believer.

What makes you think our Christian God doesn't "Give a shit"?

it appears your disbelief comes from an unsettled quarrel you have with the Lord, or else why would you be getting so upset with this healthy debate we are having?

I too am trying to figure out the "unsettledness" here....like he's mad about something, but I don't want to speculate, but am interested...

Okay so if you dont have some kind of video footage you dont believe? So basically any history before video you dont believe? hmm

Oh, and let's not get it twisted, this isn't a thread where people are trying to get other people to convert to one thing or another...but moreso allowing the space for people who just have Questions about other people's beliefs...

Like I have a 1000 Muslim questions and whatnot....

thats cause there is no higher power

But it seems that you are agitated. If that's something you believe, wouldn't you be calm about it? Or are you just passionate about your opinion?

Yeah i'm not trying to convert anyone, but it does break my heart to know that some of the guys I talk to aren't saved, because I want everyone I know to go to heaven.

if you have no peace how can you be calm?

Again, I don't want to assume, because he could just be getting all Passionate about his point.

But the whole "Being at peace" with yourself DOES weigh in...

I know how I was before Christ and I know how I am after. People take medications, get counseling, anger management etc, and still sometimes it doesnt work. I had doubts, but for me to get prayer and be completely changed, for peace just to instantly come over me that didn't compare to any drug I had ever tried is something I can't deny.

By the numbers...

Preface: God's name can, and always will be, used by people to justify their actions. Just because "God told me to do this" doesn't mean that they're right, it just means that they're using the Lord's name in vain. To hold it against God because there are people exercising their free will to do bad things and to stamp God's name on it isn't "fair", for lack of a better term. For example, say I approached a club owner who has a well-known spot for the house & trance music. I waltz in saying how awesome I am, and use your name on all the promo ads. I then proceed to drop Justin Bieber, Miley Cyrus, Emily Osment, and Miranda Cosgrove tracks all night, with a few songs by Megadeth and Eminem just to break the monotony. Odds are, the club owner wouldn't be very happy with me, and he'd probably give you an earful and a half if you called him to spin next Saturday, because he thinks I'm you. It's the same principle when someone does things in God's name that are in severe contrast to His nature.

1.) Everyone seems to like pointing to the Crusades as the best example of when religion hits the fan. A history major I am not, but the first few paragraphs on the Wikipedia page lead me to believe that it was as much a political war fought over territory as it was about religion. Did they use religion as an excuse? sure did. Did they use it to keep people joining the army and supporting the fights? The Wiki page makes it seem as such. Does that necessarily mean that God ordained the wars? I'm not convinced.

2.) Still not a history buff, most of the above still applies. They seem to be at variance with the Bible, and yes, human constructs to retain the influence of the church. Obviously, I'm not denying that people have done some pretty sad things with God's supposed rubber stamp.

3.) The Salem Witch Trials were, yet again, as much socio-political as they were religious based, and while the Bible does sternly warn against participating in witchcraft (i.e. supernatural abilities granted by Satan, who as depicted in the Bible has no philanthropic tendencies and thus would only be used for harm), but I could find no evidence to support capital punishment for the offense. Granted I only did some preliminary Google searching, so I could have missed something.

4.) A biblical example taken right out of Genesis. This definitely doesn't fit with the previous two examples, as this was done by God Himself as opposed to the church as an institution in the middle ages. S&G requires a bit of background information though....
God and sin can't coexist. Also, God's omniscience is at variance with the concept of God saying something will happen and then have it not happen. If you disagree with those two principles, fine, but they're required for the point to make sense. S&G was so well known for their sinful ways - and their taking pride in how sinful that they could act - that 4,000-5,000 years later, the city name is STILL synonymous with a blatantly sinful lifestyle. God loved those people. He created them. He gave them all a free will. They chose to see how far they could walk in the opposite direction. He warned them. Repeatedly. They chose to not heed the warning. God's word doesn't come back void, and the city was destroyed. Now, there is a nontrivial possibility that the destruction of these cities was caused by some sort of natural phenomenon, and I'm not opposed to the concept of God using an off-course comet, for example, to burn the cities down. The events described in the passage are a group that God *does* take credit for, so whether the cities were burned using natural or completely metaphysical means is inconsequential to the point as a whole.

5.) On the heels of that, you mention Lot's wife being turned into a pillar of salt. Again, God said "If you look back, you will turn into a pillar of salt", and she looked back. Again, given the foundational principles above, that's kinda going to happen. Now, the greater question being asked here is why God said it in the first place. God's a jealous God. Not jealous in an insecure, I'm-so-worried-you'll-leave-me kind of jealousy, the kind of jealousy that is inextricably intertwined with love. Do you have a spouse or a significant other? Do you really, fully, love them? Are you worried they're going to leave you? Would you get pissed if you walked in on them with your best friend on top of them? Same general principle here. Now, realize that Lot's family was the only one that was spared from the destruction of the city. When his wife looked back, the description doesn't express a looking back as in looking-at-the-carnage-to-see-what-happened kind of looking back, but a looking back with longing, as in, "God rescued me from there to save me from the imminent destruction, but I still wanna go back so I can sin a bit more with whoever is left". I'd be kinda pissed if I walked in on my future-spouse to save her from carbon monoxide poisoning, only to have her look back and say, "Damn, I wish you would have waited a bit longer so I could have 'finished up' with Brad". Now granted the difference is that Lot's family wasn't participating in the activities of the area, but it's the closest comparison I could come up with off the top of my head.


All of the above said, I must ask the following question: how relevant is it? Is it history? yes. Is it part of the Biblical record? In the cases of points 4 and 5, yes. But I must ask - and I'm not asking to posture myself on the offense, but rather out of a genuine desire for understanding (and as my other posts on this thread hopefully demonstrate, I'm not here to force anyone to convert to anything), is it really the incidents listed above that invoke disbelief?



Simple: if I wrote "The Gospel According to Ananias" today, it wouldn't make it a true Gospel since it was written well after the events they describe. The Gospel according to Thomas was written in the fifth century AD (and by extension NOT written by the Thomas who was Jesus' disciple), and its contents are at significant odds with the contents of the "canonized" Bible. The Old Testament, aka the Torah, had been officially completed for centuries before the birth of Jesus. The New Testament had been completed during the first hundred years following Jesus' death. The four Gospels were either firsthand accounts (Mark and John) or secondhand accounts of close followers of disciples (Matthew and Luke). The manuscripts had been WIDELY circulated, as had the letters Paul had written to the early churches in the epistles. Constantine didn't rewrite the Bible for his ends; he simply made official (and if memory serves, standardized the order in which they were classified) the document that everyone had been following for the last few centuries anyway. It'd be akin to President Obama signing into law the consumer's right to rip CDs into iTunes. Yeah it's great that we now have legislative backing, but it's not like he wrote the program to do it because none had yet existed. The "early church" had already existed, and if Constantine decided to radically alter the documents to serve his purposes, his changes wouldn't have lasted very long in "church land". Even if they did theoretically, he was going up against a group of people who had a VERY strong belief that it was their duty to preserve and distribute the Bible as widely as possible. Early manuscripts of the Bible are among the most plentifully available documents from the era for that reason. I personally am unaware of any major disputes with regards to foundational principles found in the early manuscripts as opposed to the post-Constantine copies.




Here's the difference: God, as an entity, is completely beyond my understanding. I can't comprehend His physical/metaphysical existence, His power to speak things into existence, or to be quite honest, why He'd choose to create me. The characters in my friend Shannon's virtual world in "The Sims" can't begin to comprehend my existence, either. However, a bowl of pasta is something that is completely known. Its chemical properties, the method by which it came into existence, and the purpose for its existence are all completely known to me, Emeril Legassi, and anyone else that can read Wikipedia. Pasta is, in fact, NOT sentient and, to my knowledge, has never been shown to create anything or show any desire to do so or taken any credit for creating anything that has been created. That is the difference, and why it seems so ridiculous. If you take the actions and known aspects of The Creator and apply them to the creation of the creation, it does seem ridiculous.

However, if God could manifest His existence as a burning bush and a baby wearing a diaper, I'm not discounting the possibility that God could, if He so desired, could shoehorn Himself into a bowl of pasta.

Joey

I like how you just focus on the video....how about THE MAN WHO DID IT CAN STILL BE ASKED LOL

I wasnt using those examples to disprove god, i was using those examples (1st ones the last 2 were because of the nonvilent comment that was used) to show that the way a human being mind works being taught to blindly believe in something that strongly especiallty in a world with so many conflicting beliefs is DEADLY its NEVER worked out and an omnipitant being would know that, its destructive, its wrong and it prevents progress




At the time most worshipers could not even read so they would not know the chanegs in the book and the acutual the king and religious heads worked very closley together, both were VERY corrupt institutions at the time. And even if it wasnt on porpose just the act of translating can change an eniter meaning, if you ever watch a subtitled movie or play an old NES video game you can see the translations are off because certian words and concepts dont translate well into other languages




But you could say thesame thing about humans you KNOW the chemical DNA, componets, and reasons for everything in the human body, you cant pass those on to an omnipitant being, for instance we have a mouth to eat a digestive track and a but to poop....i dont see any of those as traits a diety should possess

As silly as it may sound i would recomenf the church of FSM to everyone, if you can look past the obviosuly silly overtones theres some good critical thinking info inthere

The purpose of the council of nicaea was to determine weather jesus was divine or not, to determine the date that would be recognized as easter (they diddnk kno when he was resurrected?), and to determine official cannon law (word of god). Fact is for the first 300 yrs a.d. jesus was regarded as a man. Many scolars believe deity status was given in order to more easily convert pagens to christianity. Believers consider jesus as divine because man said so. Believers consider the official cannon the word of god because man said so.
Does this nil and void him as being the messiah? No. Has his message been greatly miskewed and altered for control purposes. Most definitely so.
I stand by my previous statement and feel if all religions could grasp this concept we would be much better off. Whatever vessel you choose to find spiritual wholeness is yours and yours alone.

EXACTLY, thats my biggest issue with it and why people like DLBreaks get so irritated. If you want to believe in something thats AWSOME whatever gets you through the day, its when people start pressing their views on ME and trying to dictate the way i should live and start making laws an dstarting wars all over the idea that their is the one and only way that people begin to cross boundries.

I see organised religion similar to if DJ am showed up to your club, ROCKED the crowd, and told you the that to be a good dj you need to play what you want have fun and play for the ladies and you come in the next week drunk as hell and only play britney spears and cuss out and throw things at anyone who wants to hear something else.

A church created as originally for satire - no thanks - I'll pass.

I kinda know where your coming from, because when I took a philosophy course, my professor asked some really profound questions of "how do you know" & " can you prove". I even had to write a paper for midterm exams against the existence of God.. The class had my belief system all screwed by for a minute, but then, you either remain a skeptic or follow your core beliefs..

not agitated at all im pretty happy about everything thats going in my life, just stating the obvious that there is no god or a higher power or afterlife or reincarnation.

bro i am a non violent and very peacful person and i dont need any imaginative made up fictional characters to live a happy and full life thats all im saying. and what do i need to be saved from? i never commited murder or rape or never stolen from a neighbor so therefore i didnt commit any sins anyway. people will be way better off by doing meditation rather than praying to a ceiling.

Ok, so if it was so "Obvious", why do MILLIONS of people believe it?

So what exacty do you think of when you Meditate?

Because theyr gullible and brainwashed and were probably raised that way by their brainwashing parents and society.

You say the mantra that was given to you over and over again in your head. Transcendental meditation is a wonderful thing everyone should do it. When i was a kid my grades were so great, but when i started TM i got nothing by As and Bs. Shit works, prayer doesnt. And i dont get the stupid expression, god helps those who help themselves, this is a joke right? Well if people help themselves then what do they need god for. I think the world would be a in a much better place if it wasnt for religion.

Wow, that's a lot of dumb people.

Don't you know that Meditation is a form of believing in something that isn't tangable?

yea you'r def right about that one

Saying a mantra in your head is not beleiving in something

You are believing that saying it over and over will bring you peace. That's no different thatn someone believing in a higher power.

Sorry to break it to you, but you're religious dude.

My meditation is extremely far from a religion. I still dont beleive in a higher power, god, jesus, bible, ghosts, afterlife, reincarnation, satan and im not spiritual whatsoever.

If you're meditating, you're spiritual.

Let me explain. If you take a DRUG, or some mind altering substance to, say, make you feel "peace", that's tangable. People can see you take the drug, and can arrest you for being in possession of it.

Now, you saying that you can achieve "Peace" by sitting and "thinking" about something over and over, is causing the same effect of giving you "Peace", but you CAN'T PROVE, that you're really saying the "Mantra" over and over in your head...

Thus not only YOU would be believing this "ritual" would bring you peace, but OTHERS LOOKING AT YOU, would have to accept that you're really saying that in your head, and obtaining peace.

im a peaceful person i always was and always will be and its not cause of meditation. meditation and prayer are way different. meditation helps and prayer doesnt. meditation changes things in the brain and prayer doesnt. go read about transcendental meditation. it still doesnt make the point of this thread that god and the bible are real.

Funny your - transcendental meditation has its roots in religion lol..