i started like alot of people with an SL1 & upgraded to the SL3 about 9 months later.....
The Sl3 is in a different league to the Sl1

So in your opinion there's a noticeable sound quality difference then- for the better?

For me there is a huge sound difference between the two.

I would never go back to an SL1. Try them out you will hear the difference.

Most DJ's I know have either upgraded to SL3 immediately when they were released & other CD DJ’s crossed over to the SSL DVS just because of the sound quality on the SL3.

I know some Tracktor converts as well thanks to the SL3.

Nice indeed!!

Thanks for the information. Now I need to find a good supplier of the SL3. Any ideas on one with good pricing / customer service?

;-)

I have played on a SL3 and it is noticeably better as far as sound, but the thing I love is the ease of hookup - no line/phono RCAs - just one set out and your done.

Nice indeed! Thanks for all the input:)

You can trade it in at guitar center...

There isn't one close by me. I wonder if that would do it via mail. Hmmmmm.

you cant trade in SL boxes at GC, there considered software for some odd reason

Maybe, it depends on your location. I was at the guitar center
in manhattan last week and dude who said he was a manager asked me if I had the sl1 or sl3. I told him the sl1. He told me, you can get more for the sl1 on eBay, but they do accept the sl1's in the store and I will get 15% off the sl3.

Ok. I may list mine on ebay then. thanks for that info. Now is there a good vendor or is the best place to go is guitar city?

Ok. I may list mine on ebay then. thanks for that info. Now is there a good vendor or is the best place to go is guitar city?

theres a guitar city?

trade it in for 15% off is a shit deal!

+1

i dont think that was a guitar center deal i think he was gonna use his employee discount then flip your sl1 on ebay

He probably was.. I didn't take it anyways. I just put it out there for those who don't want to wait for the eBay transition delivery period..

Yeah I agree that 15% discount is not too good of a deal. Looks like my SL1 is on its way to eBay for sale.

Now in the meantime I am going to try to look around for some deals on the SL3.

Again, thanks everyone for your insights!

I don´t think there is a difference in sound quality. The output is louder but unless your playing only uncompressed files you won´t really notice the difference.

Hmmm... That is interesting... So you are saying that it is only louder. On my sl1 the sound is quiet but to be honest I have never really liked the sound quality. It seems very very muffled to me.

The sound is technically better. In a club environment where not everything is set up perfectly there are other variables that are more crucial to the sound. That´s why I am saying it is mostly louder.

Do you play many uncompressed files? If so the SL3 is must for 24bit playback.

Have you not a chance to test it side by side?

Hi there DJ.Mojo,

At the moment I have the SL1. I have not purchased the SL3 yet. I would have to order it online as no shops in my area carry the rane product- except for mixers.

Most of the files I play are 320kb mp3. I do have some wave files, but for space considerations, I spin mostly mp3 or straight vinyl.

Also no I have not had the chance to test side-by-side as no vendors in my area carry the product.

You can use mine and compare it next time you come to Germany!

Maybe you are ultra-audiophile or need super high quality recordings that can´t be recorded via laptop soundcards or you need that third deck ... I only spoke for myself. I own the sl3, it has advantages BUT it is not mindblowing.

The practical advantages (recording, 3rd deck, individual sampler channel) were my main priorities to upgrade to the SL-3. I didn't notice any major jump in sound quality using 320kb mp3s (but the system I play on are far from perfect)

Same here!

The majority of my tracks are 320kbps because that's the way iDjPool encodes them. Like you've stated, I didn't tell much of a difference between 192kbps and 320kbps, but even still when I play those on my SL1, it just sort of sounds somewhat muffled- versus me playing the same track with Windows Media Player. Also the track's overall volume is much "louder" in Media Player than when played on the SL1. Much like if you play vinyl and switch to the SL1 and play a audio track, it is night and day between the two.

On another note, I do not do any recording using the laptop sound cards, and when I do record, I use a separate desktop workstation with Adobe Audition and try to keep my laptop dedicated to Serato Scratch.

At any rate, the recording capabilites of the SL3 at the moment is not a primary concern of mine. I was just hoping to improve on the output sound quality while doing a gig, and hence the reason for the question of the SL1 vs SL3 output sound quality.

DJ.Mojo: If it would have been about 20 years ago, I would have taken you up on your offer as I used to live in Germany ;-)

Laz219: I have a 3rd deck, but use it for "backup" purposes in case one acts up on me during a gig. But I didn't know the SL3 supports 3 decks. Nice. Thanks for that info.

"I didn't tell much of a difference between 192kbps and 320kbps" if you can't tell this, then you won't be telling difference between 320 + FLAC/APE/WAVE/AIFF etc.

When you get more experienced tho, lower bitrates are obvious when u gain, it gains the artefacts in the compressed audio and also does not retain bass resonance and overtones throughout the music..

I have SL1 I got over a year ago on ebay 2nd hand, with warranty and receipt (still for another year :) ) for 550 or 600 AUD $ .. I would expect to sell it again for exactly the same on ebay. This means you can upgrade after selling to a NEW SL3 for around 300-500 AUD.. not too bad at all.. second hand would only cost 100-200 extra probably.

So although most music I play is 16bit, you say the 24bit output still provides greater quantisation and dithering now between music of different bitrates/frequency range? Does it sound 'clearer' while you are working on beatmixing - does adjustments to the mix still sound kind of 'warbly'?

I would be interested in an upgrade but at this stage I think I'll be getting a laptop first, then maybe a midi keyboard & monitors for production.. and a new mixer is getting pretty essential soon, sucks without a crossfader I'm sick of the gain knobs lol.

I just upgraded from SL2 to SL3; went to GC and did nand requested a price match from this website:
www.kpodj.com

$ 630 including tax

Good deal!!

Sorry SL1 to SL3

I just upgraded from SL2 to SL3; went to GC and did nand requested a price match from this website:
www.kpodj.com

$ 630 including tax

Good deal!!

Hmmm... i forgot all about kpodj. That is where I ordered my b52s from a few years back. Thanks for that!

Y'all need to ask Deez.

deez nuts

Please if you have nothing meaninful to contribute, please refrain from posting in this thread. Thanks.

like that's gonna happen on this forum.

but yo, I switched a couple of months back, I only mess with 320Kbps and some WAV, AIFF, and especially on big systems the difference is very noticeable. I'd say, go for it, you won't be disappointed.

Thanks for the comments :) I will get in contact with kpodj this week and see what there price e is looking like.

I agree with those who have said that there is a noticable difference in the sound quality to upgrade to an SL3. I bought mine in March this year and have been taking it to the club that already has 2 SL1 boxes and re-wiring stuff every week. Only because I can notice a difference in sound quality and I can use 3 decks or record my sets.

For those that don't know….serato is made to push 192kbps songs. That is the ideal rate for the soundcard. Of course, WAV files are much better. Unfortunately every single dj pool posts and mp3. If you can get a file in WAV and 192 then you are golden.

It's simple, you put crap in a blender and you'll just get crap back. So start with good audio files or it wont matter what SL box you buy. Also, make sure you analyze your songs with the auto volume correction on. Ideally, 90-92dB is perfect. Anything higher and it will clip good systems. Anything lower and you'll have to max most of your volumes. It will automatically do that to the ones in the software. And once you do that, it distorts the sound.

I play on various stages from USA to Japan (where I now live) and I can tell you, when you are on a large stage with 10s of thousands of watts worth of speakers, a crappy MP3 really stands out. Also, 192 is ideal for shows that large. There is more head room and dynamics, plus it's easier to decode. WAV files are very simple and allows the audio engineer/hardware/software to do their job much easier and better. Imagine a box full of vinyls with no labels…then trying to find the one with just a bassline. Yea, pain in the rear. Now imagine the same thing but the box has 4 vinyls: each labeled bassline, treble, mids, and vocals. Now find the bassline. That is how engineers and all that gear work. So use a WAV file and 192 and it will make a huge difference.

The SL3 and SL1 retain the same audio quality, with the exception of the hertz. That's what is making the audio louder (not by much). And part of the reason that was done is to improve the timecode volume so it tracks better.

Other than that, less cables, and the 3rd deck…the SL3 isn't much different. I dj with an SL1, SL3, and TTM57 on a weekly basis. There is really no difference. Get quality audio files and you'll be fine.

I think you're getting your numbers confused there.

The SL4 is a 24 bit 96 kHz soundcard.

The SL2 and SL3 are 24 bit 48 kHz cards.

Nothing on the planet does 196 kHz... ;-)

The optimum choice for Scratch Live is really 24 bit, 48 kHz, as you can't always rely on having access to an SL4 in the field.

I'm not referring to the Hertz. I said the Hertz are different.

I'm talking about the bitrate of your music. If you read the software notes, Serato's ideal rate is 192. That is why Whitelabel.com puts all of their files at 192.

The different bit SOUNDCARDS just allow for a larger range of bitrates. So if for example you have a 60kbps file, it will still be able to play it. Thats all hertz do. It allows the hardware to "recognize" the music so i can be played. But i have yet to find anything with audio bit rates that low.

Oh, one more thing taken from Apple itself…. The Apple MacBook is capable of sending out a 24/196.4 signal through its FireWire output.

24 bit/ 196.4 kHz

What does the 24bit/48kHz have to do with anything he asked about? The initial audio you play must be the best quality or it won't matter what you play it through. The hertz simple expands the music and does make it sound better. But if you have crappy audio files, it won't do much. If you ever find a music file that can't be played by Serato because it's outside of the HERTZ range, I want to see that.

That's because you are probably using MP3 files in your serato. CDs are formatted specifically for that time of crappy, lossless music. So yes it will sound better because Serato is much more advanced. Imagine you have a dj set up with 15" JBL speakers and subs playing 100meters away. You can really tune it so it doesn't sound bad. But the closer you get to it, the more detail of the song you can hear. At 100meters you probably can't hear the words very well. But at 10ft you hear it all. So if it's a poorly recorded song, you'll be able to hear MORE detail but its crappy. Thats what Serato does. It takes what you have an amplifies it. That's it. Serato is a soundcard not an audio engineer. If you want it to sound good, get good audio to play on it.

You wouldn't put HUBCAPS on a FERRARI, would you?

Get you a WAV file and then make a copy. Convert the copy into MP3. Now play both through Serato. Flip back and forth between the 2 channels and you'll hear a difference. The larger the system, the easier it is to hear the smaller imperfections. DJing at home versus a venue with 15k people is a big difference. And from experience, I've learned (embarrassingly) that the audio files quality is what matters. Not how loud or how much you EQ it. Crap in = Crap out

192kbps vs 320kbps
serato.com

I stand corrected about the 196khz thing.

But I must be misunderstanding you because it reads like you're saying 192kps mp3 is preferable to use over 320kps. Is that right? Because if so, that's nonsense. 192 sounds like ass.

192Kb was fine in 1999. I would not be caught dead playing anything with synths in it at that bitrate since then.

What would u guys say about the ttm57 sound? Vs sl1 or sl3?

wrong
www.rane.com
www.rane.com
www.rane.com


SL 3 wins - crisper, cleaner, more punch !

Nah, lol. I'm not saying 192 is better I'm saying 192 is prime for Serato. Everyone gets hung up on 192 and 320 and blah blah blah. I'm an audio engineer. I can play you a 192 track that sounds better than a 320. It's all about what you used to encode it. For example, WAV files sound a hell of alot better than any MP3. Naturally they are encoded at a lower bitrate. All WAV files operate at 44.1 kHz 16-bit/ two-channel stereo. How bad does that sound? Not bad at all. Every single radio station and television broadcasts the audio in a 16bit/2 ch WAV format. Why? Because no matter what you use, you'll be able to hear it. Obviously, a better TV will perform better than a 1970s tv. But in order to do that, FIRST they must put a quality audio into it. All I'm saying is it doesn't matter what Serato box you use if you are using crappy audio. So first things first, get good audio files.

Sorry for the confusion.

No you are right, MP3 sounds like crap regardless. Especially when compared to a WAV.

Think of a WAV file as a movie theater and an MP3 as your living room. Drastic difference. The size is limited just like MP3s. They limit the roof of audio and compresses it down. Which jumbles the audio up more. WAV files let the music "breathe". Every note has it's own space to expand without running into each other.

Everyone here needs to remember, what are records formatted as? Exactly, and how many times can a dj say that vinyls sound much better than a MP3. It's all about how it was encoded not what the bitrate is. Most files are encoded with low grade and ends up being lossless. Every single recording station in the world uses something like pro tools or logic and they output the files as WAV…. wav is the basis for everything. Doesn't get better than that. And remember, you can encode anything at any bitrate. So start with quality files and go from there.

No. A 16-bit uncompressed linear-PCM file at 44.1 kHz sample rate will have a *bitrate* slightly higher than 1400kb/sec.

You appear to be confusing bitrate with sample rate. They're not interchangeable terms.

Yes, you are right. Damn translation is difficult.

I thought he work for serato for a minute.

"serato is made to push 192kbps songs"
foreal?
do you have a link to some info about that?
thanks!

I'll dig for it. I didnt believe it before either. But sure enuff, I got the info direct from Rane. Its all about the quality of the file. If you can get a 192 at prime quality, then it is preferred. Saves space and Serato works under less load. But problem is, nowadays (lol), it's hard to find quality ANYTHING files that arent already MP3 = skrewed up.

I'm going to guess that *maybe* way back in the dark ages of 2004-2005, when the largest laptop-sized hard drives were 60-80-100gb, that 192kbps was mentioned as a reasonable compromise of file-size versus sound quality. It would have made sense *back then* for someone needing a reasonably-sized library, especially if they didn't want to resort to using a larger (non-bus-powerable) "desktop computer"-type external hard drive when DJ-ing.

When playing compressed audio files, the decoding to uncompressed "linear PCM" streams is taking place in software. The Rane audio hardware is therefore interacting with the same actual "bitrates" in the audio being fed over the USB connection whether the user is playing a 32kbps MP3 or an uncompressed WAV or AIFF file.

Lossless WAV and AIFF files are readily available to DJ's. Beatport, Traxsource and Stompy are three that I personally buy from. Beatport is especially convenient for now offering AIFF files containing tags and artwork (and also for ditching their website's god-awful old "Traktorish"-looking interface...the current site is really nicely done). The other two require more manual labor when buying the WAV files they offer (if you want tagged files containing artwork to play in Scratch Live).

Back to the original subject, I know NO ONE who's ears I trust that doesn't find both the TTM57 (and later) and the SL-3 (and later) to have been noticeably better in sound quality compared to the SL-1. Better D/A convertors in the newer hardware, and better audio circuitry in general. That question was actually effectively resolved in this thread back in June 2010.

The quality of the interface will be rendered irrelevant if you're a DJ who leaves Key Lock on all the time. Then the audio will sound super shitty regardless of what interface you're using.

So in all….what we all need to take from this…the box you use should be based on your level as a dj. A bedroom dj can be fine with an SL2 but a show dj would rather go bigger. Regardless of what you use, practice your skills and get good audio to begin with.

**************
Nope, all you need to know is that:

The 'new' SL2,SL3 & SL4 boxes produce improved sound quality than the 'older' SL1 boxes (when using the same audio files).

Think of it in terms of car maufacturers upgrading the engines in 'newer' models to get more miles per gallon etc... the car may still be a Honda Civic on the outside, but a 2012 model will give you better performance than a 2006 model using the exact same fuel.

Hopefully this can end this thread.

K

Yes, but not everyone NEEDS to buy or can afford a 2012 BMW. So driving an older, but still nice model works. Too each his own.

**********************
That was not the point of this thread tho TeeOh... unless I'm mistaken it said "SL3 vs SL1 sound quality?"

And then folks went to talk rubbish saying there was no difference between the two :)

K

I know what the point was….all i said was just start with quality audio. Otherwise you wont be able to really tell a difference.

not sure why an sl2 - is "bedroom level" - unless you need more than 2 channels - which most djs don't - the sound quality of an SL2 is still better than an SL1 or a 57...

**************
*Bangs head against the wall...*

Ok.

K

***************
This... think TeeOh is missing one slight, yet huge point... the new generation of SL boxes (2,3,4) have all moved on tech wise = improved output / sound over SL1 (as you'd expect five years down the line!).

I did think my car scenario had made it as easy as possible to understand how/why this may have happened, but I guess not.

K

If that was in fact "all you said", no one would have any argument. Though many would still wonder why you bumped a two-year-old thread just to say that.

I'll leave it at that :-).

Everyone has opinions so what makes it ok for you to open your mouth but not me? Exactly. I didn't know it was a 2 yr thread, someone sent me this link so i commented. I was told by Rane themselves (who sponsor events I coordinate) that the difference in the models arent very clear when you have shitty audio. Too really hear a difference you need quality audio. And when you are playing to crowds of hundreds and thousands, the audio is sent thru an engineer anyway so its their job to make it sound amazing. But that is the difference between most djs….they arent djing on stages like Qbert or Guetta. So for a dj who spins in front of 300 or less people, an SL4 or SL3 isnt really affordable. Hell, most djs will have to save for months to even be able to consider buying one. Unless you are on a stage with 600+ people in a massive venue with a ri-donk-ulous sound system then buying an SL3/ SL4 over an SL2 or 1 is not very important.

I dj alot of places. From USA to Dubai to Japan. Regular club sets, studio sessions, and live routine sets. I use the 57, 68, SL1, SL3, and SL4 on a daily basis. But in my home and travel setup, I have 2 SL1 setups. So as I said, it depends on what you use it for. I've used the SL1 for major shows as well. With quality music, the crowd doesn't know the difference.

Yea there are differences and improvements but what is that worth when you have shitty audio? Even still, there isn't such a drastic difference in the models so you couldn't use any of them. Clarity, volume, latency, blah blah blah. I can dj with my SL1 (and have) along side amazing djs on a 68 and 57 but there is no audio variance. And I can bet that very very very few of you djs could even tell the difference in what a DJ is using in the booth.

Arguing about the superiorness of a product when I am trying to make sure the potential buyer starts with a good foundation before making choice, is childish. The minor differences in the models are only apparent when you are on a huge dj level.

one of my friends has sl1 and i have used it at home with .wav files and my trusty krk's. i just bought sl3 a couple weeks ago and with the same set up, i know it has a better sound quality (and volume) teeoh is right about the quality of the source being important, but the whole chain of the sound should be. any shitty part in the chain and the whole thing sucks. ie: sl3 & wav with shitty speakers is worse than virtual dj (or atomix back in the day lol) with 192 and great speakers imo

Another Darwin thread...

Basically it's like this....

It SEEMS like DJ TeeOh is saying 192KBPs is what's OPTIMAL for Scratchlive...

Like (using my OWN car example), you know how some cars manufacturers say that REGULAR (unleaded) (87 Octane) gas (192kbps) is OPTIMAL for your vehicle, even though you can purchase PREMIUM (92 Octane) gas (320kbps)?

Meaning that even if you put a HIGHER Octane of gas in your car, it won't perform any better, (and in a lot of cases make the car run worse, or get worse gas mileagle?

Is that what you're saying TeeOh?


Because if you are.....

I can see how a 192KBPs file would be OPTIMAL for the SL1.... but not for every hardware that run SSL.

Nope, makes no technical sense at all.

As I already pointed out, the hardware isn't handling the decoding.

The SL-1 has obviously been bettered by the newer interfaces, but fewer lossy-codec artifacts will only give better sound regardless of what interface is used.

It's notable that the person who made that claim never bothered to cite the supposed references from Rane...

i think you're misinformed - the SL2 has the same "guts" as the SL3 and the SL4

Are you SERIOUS? Disk space issues aside, you really think that a 192kbps file would work better than a file of a higher bitrate even if we're JUST talking about an SL1 or TTM57?

So you're saying there's NO BENEFIT to using a higher bitrate file with those 2 levels of hardware?

So basically a 320kbps file is OVERKILL for that hardware....

All I know is an SL1 and 57 don't sound as good as the SL2, SL3, SL4, 61, 62, 68.

Right, but that wasn't the focus of the thread.

It was suggested that 192KBPS files are OPTIMAL for SL1 and 57 HARDWARE, and that a higher bitrate would basically be overkill...

Wrong, you're simply focusing on an irrelevant (and fairly ridiculous) 2-years-later threadjack from someone who appears to know slightly less than little.

WHY some people DO THAT is SIMPLY beyond my COMPREHENSION.

SO many ill-informed ATTENTION-WHORES running loose, I GUESS...

How is that wrong?

It was suggested that 192KBPS files are OPTIMAL for SL1 and 57 HARDWARE, and that a higher bitrate would basically be overkill...

*****************
*Removes thread tracking*

Zzzzzzzzzzz

K

I already explained what was wrong, in considerable detail, in several other posts above. I don't see much to be gained from repeating it.



Excellent advice LOL. Based on all evidence, I'm fairly certain the minutes I spent correcting the absurd misinformation and gibberish posted above was wasted.

Wait, do we agree with each other?

I'm confused...

Wassup everyone,

I've been away for quite some time now. You know what? I still haven't made a purchase just as yet. Still rocking with my SL1. I get most my music from idjpool. There stuff is at 192KBPS. I still say when I play the mp3 from the computer it blows away the sound quality when playing with my SL1. I promise my ears can hear the difference.

That is what prompted me to start this thread way back when. I still use my trusty Rane TTM-56 mixer too. Sometimes I want to step that up some, but I do like it- I promise I do ;-)

Less cords would make my setup time quicker. Not by much, but still quicker. I have all my cords labeled using colors to make things easy to identify. I like it so easy that a "caveman could do it!" ;-)

I may not step up to the SL4 but a SL2 or 3 might be just what I need.

I have heard that many of you say it 'sounds' better than the SL1, while others have indicated it does not. That's a interesting division right there.

To be honest, I don't care much at all about the specs, but do care about the sound. I appreciate everyone's input- even though this thread is old.

Anyone go from a SL1 to some other SLx, and then regretted it?

The SL1 is ancient. Everything else will definitely sound better.

yup

Please tell me you don't pay money for that.

192kps will sound like ASS through anything above an SL1.

The better interfaces show up badly encoded files much more.

I would hold off upgrading until you replace your entire music collection with files that aren't encoded like it's 2002.

Think of the minds you would blow if you showed up in 2002 with a current SSL setup on a MacBook Pro, hahahaha.

idjpool has been 320 on most of the stuff since the very beginning (2006?), I was one of the original members and I don't EVER think I have seen a 192 from them.

Even it was a 192 to start - it was upsampled to 320 - LOL. Seriously that one one of idjpool's biggest things since the beginning. DJ City would throw up a 192 a few days or a week earlier but we would somtimes have to wait until the label sent a 320.

double check that...

i played on a sl 1 for the first time in 3-4 years(whenever the sl3 came out) i didnt think it sounded that much worse.

i just bought a red limited sl3 last week after having a sl1 for years and first thing i noticed was my levels are alot louder with sl3. i didnt change anything just swtiched boxes out and my levels are alot louder then they were. i also wondered since sl3 is usb 2 if that helps with data transfer stuff? im not a sound or computer genius as you can tell.

sl2, sl3 & sl4 have hotter output than the old sl1...

That was a slip of the tongue. I meant to say 320KBPS. *My Bad* An honest mistake altogether ;-) Sorry fellow DJs... lol...

FLAC support now = irrelevancy of this thread.

MP3 = ass. OGG = ass.

There's wav or other lossless.

Then there's encoded lossless like FLAC.

There is no inbetween as far as I'm concerned.

MP3 is only for stuff ONLY released in MP3 format. Which I will never buy and think blows chunks compared to lossless.

I blend almost everything and overtones and harmonics only come well from lossless, obviously. Pitching is clearer with less noise. There is no compression artifacting.

192 CBR mp3 being 'acceptable' is true. It's 'acceptable'. Not good though.

The lowest I'll go is 128 CBR. Bandcamp or soundcloud stream rip. Bandcamp is better because it's not usually a transcode, compared to soundcloud. That's for unreleased stuff only.

Not to mention WAV is 2db louder than MP3 so has less clipping with gaining it up through EQ or level.

I was trying to think of a polite way to say 'bullshit', but actually I can't be bothered.

Bullshit.

The history of this thread after 9:05 AM - 14 June, 2010 presents a good argument for thread "time-out locks" after a certain period of inactivity.

Now we have the second thread-bump for this with someone posting useless grandstanding and complete misinformation...

www.hydrogenaudio.org

I want an update to this - SL3 vs SL4 sound quality.. PARTICULARLY for 'real' vinyl - noticed a grounding issue through SL3 sounded like RF interference. Presuming extra lineage/cable/RCA in and out connectors of unknown quality/lifespan after hundreds of cables pulled in and out.. I wonder if 'upgrading' components of an SL3 or SL4 would be feasible or possible?

Mostly, I just want to know if there is ANY advantage for SL4 over SL3 with quality of 'real vinyl'.. I am noticing phono input on my mixer sounds better than line in thru Serato. Trying different cables and turntable RCA cable replacements soon. Now I want two outputs on my turnies .. for effortless line/phono select on my A&H Xone 92.

But I worry having a split signal in my turnies could do something.. will research. This would be the optimal though. Apart from needing to make sure nothing is playing on the other option (line vs phono switch on mixer channel) - noticed my A&H Xone 92 has a little bleed when both playing. Will see if can service/fix this but guessing part of the mixer..

I think in a few hundred years it would be useful for someone to still be able to comment on this thread personally. Along with most of the internet's forum/commentable entries.

I like how I present evidence for my argument (read some other somewhere too but can't find the forum thread) - but am presented with crickets xD

I have changed my viewpoint about flac since its integration into Serato. For 'general' desktop playback, there is no difference between flac and wav (if the flac is decoded properly) - the only difference being the flac will take more resources to play as it must be decoded from its compression to be played back. Since all 'levels' of flac encoding are entirely lossless and end up being the same information, I generally choose a larger file size to reduce strain on decoding. Or, you could go the opposite route and encode to a low file size with heavy compression, requiring more decoding power to playback.

Given that Serato DJ is very resource hogging and I believe in 'maximum' Serato Scratch Live optimisation equally, I always continue to use wav files instead of flac, even though it is available now. Why put your CPU through more cycles than it needs? The only benefit is storage space and CRC checking.

These threads pop up in my google searches of various topics - I figure others will read them in the future like I have. So I update them as I feel necessarily. There is no time limit on the internet.

From what I've heard from Rane techs in the past, splitting/piggyback cables will introduce the noise floor. I have actually done it in the past to share the turntable control signal into 2 different channels on the SL4/Rane 68. Didnt have issues with the control signal, never tried out real vinyl in that scenario. I don't have an SL3 to compare, and sold the 68 since. Now running 900SRT....

Here's a snapshot of the old piggyback/splitter config -> www.flickr.com

Thought that might happen :( might look into a good quality RCA splitter to plug into before the SL - I would love to have something like this so if I was able to setup during soundcheck at a show, I wouldn't need to do the mixer cable dance during the previous dj's last track, my first track, my last track and the following dj's first track. If possible/enough room behind the mixer, it might be possible to rise up the splitter so it can be connected to the mixer using a good quality adaptor, which would reduce the possibility of cable issues between the splitter and mixer. I really wish Rane would address this - I'd be totally willing to buy the *definitive* Serato box with highest quality components.

Or, an SL5 with option for the original SL1 style PHONO/LINE separate outputs - more RCA connectors, more options in case something goes wrong. 'True bypass' if possible and also optional 'thru switch' button in the software to be able to use the thru like it is currently on the SL3. I think that for Serato to be the best, it needs to focus on the quality of vinyl phono signal coming through and out it, since the digital files are sounding pretty nice now at 96khz and 24bit. This is one of the biggest drawbacks to Serato in my mind at the moment. I've only recently started utilising more of my real vinyl into my sets and immediately noticed the loss of quality (while trying to keep gain structure). I'm going to try different carts and needles to see if that might be to blame or if different carts with lower or higher outputs seem to 'fit' better through the Serato box. I'm guessing it won't make much difference though and it's probably the phono stage inside the box or quality of wiring. My box is 5 years old now though, is it possible to get a box 'serviced'?

I mean, I really was shocked how altered a ground hum issue on my turntable was. Since I had always had it connected to the Serato box, I was diagnosing it as 'rf interference' - or at least that's what it sounded like. Switching to the mixer phono input, I was astounded to hear it was a ground hum (broken or piss poor RCA grounding effort by a local tech under a year ago) that cleared up as soon as I made a ground loop by touching the popup lights on both my decks (only when the power switch is on obviously). I was going a little crazy until I discovered the huge change in sound coming out the Serato box compared to mixer input.. then I immediately started seriously upset at what I have previously been in love with for almost a decade. Real vinyl playback can be just as troublesome in troubleshooting and setup as Serato digital (with all the knowledge you need to make sure nothing goes wrong) but I really don't need Serato messing with the playback of my real vinyl. I'll do some recording tests of capturing vinyl directly to Serato and through my mixer, as well as through Serato into my mixer thru mode. I'll probably make a fresh thread for the issue if I get some obvious results (which I'm sure I will). I might try my ART ground isolator also between Serato and mixer (more lineage and cables argh!!!) just to see if potentially it's a transformer issue inside the Serato box or something like that..

Or one last thing.. can a ground hum totally mess up the way Serato handles phono to line level conversion for the SL3? I might open a help thread when get some time to get the bottom of it. My other deck has a transformer issue too (low whooing hum only when power on and needle contacting vinyl) - so no archiving or vinyl mix recording still for a while (unless want it to sound extra shitty).

yes grounding issues will screw serato up and how it handles it. Thats why setting the circles is so improtant in set up before any set.

I dont have much experience with the 92 mixer, only played it a few times.
Neither had much experience with the SL3 either, as my SL1 upgrade was the 68 then the SL4.

Have you ever tried the SL4 ninja? Interested to hear if its similiar to your fidnings with the SL3. From what Ive read in the past, Rane should be known for great phono preamps, its one of their selling points for both boxes and mixers no?

Also, the SL4 is a great solution to the "cable dance", I play a lot of tag team sets...

Then again, I dont have that much experience with the 92, and the one I tried last time actually had high end external preamps set up in the club.

Hi ninjagaijin.

Did you find any solutions to your phono/line/thru issue for real vinyl? I'm having the same question myself. I for one, am using more and more vinyl again but for radio/mixes a combination is very useful! I'm also DJing in a crew of mixed serato and real vinyl DJs, so it would save so much cable changing to have a solution. My main DJ partner almost refuses to DJ vinyl "thru" the SL3 and stops guest vinyl DJs from doing the same, but the next/previous DJ may likely be using vinyl too, so we would LOVE a solution. Would splitters do the job? Advice very welcome.

thanks!

I guess that I assumed that the sl3 box had the same preamps as the rane mixers? I play mostly vinyl and I'm pretty aware of sound quality and I never noticed the difference. Maybe I'll do a head to head test now that you mention it.

Use RCA Y splitters to route the turntables directly into phono on the mixer and inputs in the SL box at the same time. This gets you around needing a power supply or needing to have the SL box plugged in via USB. The one drawback to this is that you get an audible thump sometimes when you plug in the USB cable. I been doing this for almost 10 years now to get around needing power supply or having audio route through the SL box when using vinyl.

haha. Thanks DJ Irv! So even if you're only playing direct on phono at the time, do you still get the thump? Would it be something like this? www.ebay.co.uk

Or would you recommend anything else?

Also, how does the y splitter effect the vinyl sound quality and the serato signal, if at all, please?
Thanks again.

Oli

@OliB that is exactly the wire I use. The thump always happens but, only when you plug in the USB cable. I like the setup because I don't like my audio routing through SL2/SL3/SL4 boxes.

Excellent. Soooo, how bad is the thump? I guess it's not much of an issue once or twice in a night if you've been using this for a while??

I used to do that when I had Torq and the phono preamps sucked bad. When you use the splitter it does raise the noise floor because the volume gets lowered a little. We ended up switching to using rca switchboxes to send the signal where we wanted. Some extra setup but one button switching and full sound quality.

The thump is audible. Not enough to blow a speaker but it's there. You will have to hear it for yourself. I'd post a video but, I won't have time this week.

Thank you both!

I might try it anyway as it looks quite cheap to try. @Deezlee, any suggestions on the switchbox would be greatly appreciated

It's just a little box w 2 buttons. One set of rca ins and two sets of outs. One switchboxes for each side. There is also a switchboxe made just for that that does both sides, I dunno the name but it's like 200 bucks from Europe or something.

Thanks

I've read a lot of good stuff about the Magma Switchbox, but it seems to have been discontinued, sadly

Yeah that's the one.

the rca switchboxes are probably less then 10 bucks each.

well that's cheaper! I'll have a look. Thanks

as long as the source file is lossless using 192kps is ok for serato period.

Sorry it took a while but I finally found an answer.

Never really used the SL4 but I figure it is pretty much the same as SL3, with extra USB and 4th channel.. after all this time I found out that the issue is from the additional AD/DA stage in SL3, as someone with a Rane mixer complained about the real vinyl sound quality through SL3 compared to on their Rane mixer. Rane in the forums confirmed that the phono pres are exactly the same, the difference being that SL3 has the extra AD/DA stage.

I would love some isolators, high end preamps and stuff for my mixer.. <3 :)

I have decided that I am going to deal with 3db loss of signal level and get some RCA switch boxes of decent construction and reasonable price. That way I don't have to feel bad having lots of stuff plugged in and can switch between vinyl and serato without running vinyl through serato. I will be happy!

There a bunch of fancy 'audio distribution amplifiers' and switch / splitter boxes, but I found a reasonable priced one for RCA that is passive and comes in a sturdy box. I've contacted the maker and they've said they would look at making a 3 input / 6 output variant for me, so will either buy one or two 1 input / 2 output boxes to begin to test or wait to see if a multi box custom made is likely to come anytime soon. I think that after some new styli some half decent RCA switch boxes will be my main priority (even before getting my 2nd turnie fixed heh).

I'm a little wary of how that might mess with grounding (from experiences using them on game consoles and stuff with say a TV and console plugged into different outlets) - could just be paranoid but I think the boxes are a more reliable way to go, especially if using at home AND at clubs and need to carry around (and don't want to the cables to slip apart).

Can I ask what the box was you bought for $200? Was it a line level input or a phono pre or a passive switch/splitter? The ones I am looking at are around $40-50 with postage each from the UK and I have also found a guy in the US that makes similar ones, also there is one cheap mass produced brand variety: www.amazon.com

The best would be Manley Skipjack or one of the cheaper (although still expensive, 300-500 ish USD) fancy RCA switches, but they usually are line level so you need to spend even more to get a phono pre for em.. the manley skip jack and this one: www.amazon.com both take line input only - this one isn't that expensive I guess if you are in the US (and could always just use a cheap behringer pre if you don't really care about quality too much) but postage out of the US to my country is crazy prices.



pretty sure any splitter cable OR switch box will lower each channel by 3db attenuation, however I think the boxes are going to be better shielded from interference and hopefully have less issues with possible noise

I just checked the Magma - looks decent but you really don't need a volume knob. Just have the mixer level down on the incoming channel. I am trying to order something like this but with 3 inputs and 6 outputs, with 3 switches to send each input to one of two of the outputs. Just what I need for my SL3. A 4x8 version would be ace for SL4 users. There are fancy boxes that do this for XLR and TRS connections but it would be a pain converting to those connections as well as unbalanced to balanced as well as phono to line level..

You could get a pair of preamps and run the turntables to those and into the sl3 at line level.

Yeah that sounds like the best option - if it had a direct out too that would be ace, or a second output. I can't afford a decent preamp or two yet so will just stick to RCA switch box for the meantime

www.ebay.com

2 of these or something like it

No db loss it's just a switch

"I think your friend is correct. The Y splits the signal in a parallel fashion; this means your voltage stays the same in the Y limbs, but your current is reduced by 1/2. Power (W)=V*I. Here V stays the same but I is 1/2, so your power (W) is 1/2. Given that doubling power = 3dB gain, halving power should result in 3dB loss in power (dBpower=2log[P2/P1]).
I think this is correct, but I am many years away from my electronic class."

Dunno if that response is for me but there's no db loss or whatever. It's just a mechanical switch that sends the entire signal one way or the other.

Here's my final take on what's up..

Sorry late reply but I finally got around to sussing all this stuff out.

Firstly, the Magna bags switchbox version 2 is here: www.pssl.com

Your SL3 shouldn't be running into the mixer line inputs. Remove them.
Plug turntables into the Switchbox. Plug Serato ins and outs into the switch box. Plug switchbox output to the line in on mixer. When wanting to play real vinyl, just click the big knob into the middle 'thru' position I think is all you need to do. Watchwww.youtube.com
Another video but doesn't show thru setting: Watchwww.youtube.com

Although this and another similar type of switch seem really complex to use compared to having the one I went with, the cheapest and simplest for purely two turntables - 2x Rek-o-Kut low noise switches. They are simple as, they work both ways as source selects as well as a switch (I use mine reversed, one turntable input in the middle and switch between left / right outputs). And designed for turntable use so less grounding issues.

Best bang for buck: rek-o-kut low noise phono switch www.decibelhifi.com.au

Cheapest: ebay 'rca switch' www.ebay.com - not sure if will work well with phono / ground issues though - this is the best option for line level though, very cheap - there is also a metal case variant which looks sturdier but I'd worry about grounding issues.

There is an american similar equivalent branded model like this for twice as much on amazon - an amazon search for rca switchbox should bring it up.

More serious/expensive options:

Allen & Heath Xone PB www.allen-heath.com
Don't really like the rack mount and push buttons - would be hard to fit around an already cramped booth and the buttons don't seem like would be easy to use in a dark club environment. I'm sure it is good quality but it doesn't fit in apart from in a rack mount and even then, too easy to make a mistake with the selector buttons I think and/or too hard to reach them, depending where you'd put the thing

Manley Skipjack - super expensive, line level input only, so would need additional phono pre's. Expensive as and rare (out of production) - not worth the hassle unless you are rich as. Not very practical for DJ/booth use.

Stokyo Selector - a similar option to the magna bags switchbox v2, this one has a third DVS select option. None of these have the three channels required for SL3 though.
www.stokyoworld.com
Fairly nice that it has three options (good for say having some laptops plugged in ready to go for a changeover while still having Audio 8 and SL3 plugged in) but I don't really need it, I think easier to just buy more smaller switches and place them nearby the units you need them for. The two CDj and two phono inputs are the major drawback, a third input (or fourth if you're crazy and have four turntables and four CDjs or combination of other devices) would have been ideal and made this box a winner. The knobs seem better than on the magma box and the white face makes it easier to see in the dark.

Now my personal favourite option: Rodec Patch Live
www.rodec.com
However it still only has inputs for 2 turntables and 2 CDJs, so no 3 channel DVS with three turntables or CDJs with SL3. It has a third 'aux' input but it is just a pass through, no switch. So it's just purely to stop someone fiddling with the mixer when plugging their laptop / sound card/ controller / synth / aux device in. It would add an extra lineage for them, another cable and connectors and device to potentially cause issues. Which is essentially the same as having ANY switch involved, but I figure better to have separate devices in case they fail and to have a SWITCH, not a pass through by itself. Because what's the point of adding extra cable then? I know, to stop fiddling with the mixer, but I would rather reliability and sound quality in that instance. So an additional switch would still be needed to run alongside the Rodec if you wanted 3 vinyl or CDJ channels.

So in the end the best bang for buck seems to be (for 3 channel SL3 usage) three of the Rek-o-kut's. If using CDJs, you can get away with the ASPHO1 ebay ones. I believe there is a two input four output switch also, but I can't remember the specifics. I asked the guy to consider making a three channel a while ago and said they would look into it, so I linked them the Rodec Patch Live info in case helped. Would love a three channel unit still.. but even, may be better having three separate units (cheaper to replace/repair if one fails and if one fails, you can still use the other two) - mostly for space requirements and ability to position near each turntable/CDJ.

One thing I was advised that people should consider is short cables between switchbox and mixer, especially for vinyl thru mode (as long as it is just phono level thru output, not converting to line level like the magna switchbox appears to do) as the length of your turntable RCA cable (the extra cable from the switch being like an extension) affects the impedance of your turntable output - shorter being better. So try to get the switches as close to the mixer as possible to use 50-75cm cables to connect to mixer phono inputs and DVS phono inputs.

I'm thinking of eventually getting a third switch, one of those cheap ebay ones, to be able to select between a CDJ and a laptop input, to avoid someone with a laptop/soundcard/midi controller RCA input having to fiddle behind the mixer, they can just plug in next to the right or left CDJ and push the switch button. When finished just unplug and push the switch back to CDJ setting.

(ignore the first bit, was replying in another thread to someone with magma bags switchbox v2 issue with thru mode, but not running the SL3 outputs BACK INTO the switchbox, instead going to line inputs on mixer from SL3 as usual setup would be without a switch box)

Cool, it looks like it would do the job, but I like the look and ruggedness (for booth installation especially) of these line level switches - I still worry about using them for phono with possible grounding and impedence issues however

Doh links got messed up, here they are:
Rek-o-kut - www.decibelhifi.com.au
Ebay ASPHO1 www.ebay.com
A&H Xone PB www.allen-heath.com
Stokyo Selector www.stokyoworld.com
Rodec Patch Live www.rodec.com

Couple of other options - homemade 'grandmaster switch box'
serato.com - poster may potentially help with any advice making one up, there is a list of parts and cost for it (home made project)

Luke LDP-1 www.recordcase.de