Scratch Live Feature Suggestions

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DN-HC4500 JOG Wheel is really slow under Windows 7

J.J. 3:53 PM - 23 October, 2009
The JOG Wheel on the HC4500 is very slow under Windows 7. It's like the JOG Pulse was lowered from 1480 to 740 or even 555. In scratch mode, 1 full revolution only moves the record 1/6 around which makes scratching, back cueing and scanning impossible. This happened under Window 7 beta, Release Candidates, OEM, and Retail version.

I realize Windows 7 is not supported yet. www.scratchlive.net

The Jog wheel in Traktor 1.2 still work fine in Windows 7 so I don't think it's the firmware.
rockdicasbah 10:55 PM - 23 October, 2009
yes please try to see if there is a fix for this! Thank you
Mr Fusion 6:30 PM - 1 November, 2009
While I also understand that Win 7 is not yet supported, I wanted to note that this is also true for the Denon HD2500 unit as well.
Mr Wilks 7:35 PM - 1 November, 2009
For me the HD2500 is unusable which is such a shame. I'd love it to be 1:1
Dj Mike City 3:23 AM - 10 November, 2009
Same problem here.....The JOG Wheel on the HC4500 is very slow under Windows 7
Michael R 3:38 AM - 17 November, 2009
Hey guys,

Thanks for the heads up, we'll need to look in to this more :) We're currently still testing Scratch Live on Windows 7.
Michael R 3:43 AM - 17 November, 2009
Actually, can you guys please tell me which version of Scratch Live you are using? Thanks :)
J.J. 8:11 PM - 17 November, 2009
Thanks for the update Michael. I'm using the latest Scratch Live 1.9.2.
Michael R 11:15 PM - 25 November, 2009
Hey guys,

We're unable to reproduce the issue you describe, however Shaun at Rane has forwarded me some information regarding the DN-HD2500:

Quote:
I recently helped a couple users on the forum having issues with Denon 2500s. The jog wheel response time was ultra slow, meaning they had to turn the jog wheel around super fast several times to slowly move the virtual deck forward or backwards.

After a bit of digging around online, I came across a way to reset the 2500 back to defaults using the Denon Utility function within the menu options. According to one of the users, preset #26 allows you to change the Jog Wheel response time in milliseconds. A setting of 2ms seems to work the best with SSL. If the response time is too high, the above problem occurs :)

Can anyone experiencing this issue please try this suggestion? It would be good to know if this works for the DN-HC4500 too :)

Thanks!
Mr Fusion 9:17 PM - 2 December, 2009
Thanks for the tip on the HD2500's Jog Wheel response time setting. I will give it a try and let you know how it goes.
Mr Fusion 2:07 AM - 3 December, 2009
Michael R - In my case, Shaun's suggestion of setting the HD-2500 Jog Wheel Preset to 2ms (3ms was factory default settings for Firmware v1400) does not appear to make any difference in the performance of the Jog Wheel in MIDI mode running Serato v1.9.2.22 on Windows 7 Enterprise 32-bit. No issues here with Vista Enterprise 32-bit.

Thanks for looking into this!
Michael R 12:14 AM - 10 December, 2009
Hey Mr Fusion,

Thanks for trying that out. Do you use your DN-HD2500 with any other software on Windows 7? If so does it work as normal with that?
J.J. 4:45 PM - 11 December, 2009
I have also tried different MS but it still runs slow. I'm running the latest firmware (Sys 1006). This happened on Windows 7 SSL 1.9.2 on my P4 3.4 ghz Dell laptop and my new Quad Core i7 HP laptop.

The Jog wheel in Traktor 1.2 still works fine in Windows 7 so I don't think it's the DN-HC4500 firmware.
Michael R 1:49 AM - 16 December, 2009
Thanks for the feedback J.J., I'll see if we can do some more testing on reproducing this :)
Mr Fusion 4:55 PM - 16 December, 2009
Michael R - Unfortunately, I have not used the DN-HD2500 with any other software packages. I've only used it as a standalone media player, then in Midi mode with Serato once it was natively supported. I really hope that this gets worked out becaue the Denon unit is a great midi platform for use with Serato. For me, it's just the jog wheel in Windows 7 that is crippled. All other MIDI functions seem to work great!

I am willing to test anything you or Denon can throw at me to understand the issue and get it resolved. Just let me know what i can try.
Michael R 4:46 AM - 17 December, 2009
Hey guys,

Quick question: if you switch between jog modes does the 2500 or 4500 perform differently?
DjLogan 12:57 AM - 8 January, 2010
I have the same Issue with my new laptop running Win7 Home. Both my other systems one running XP the other a netbook running OSX no problem.
I tried all the different settings with in the Denon HD2500 (Jog and Midi presets)
Still Jog wheel very slow. Please Solve this issue.
Mr Fusion 2:08 PM - 13 January, 2010
Michael R - Jog mode settings does not seem to make any difference in Win 7 for me either. Works fine in XP and Vista.
Michael R 12:00 AM - 14 January, 2010
Thanks for the info guys :)
djflaco23 1:36 AM - 18 January, 2010
having the same problem with Win 7 64bit, everything works fine but the scratching is very slow, jog wheel is slow, worked fine on my vista home 32 bit
Dj Mike City 9:39 PM - 11 February, 2010
ANY UPDATE on this????????
DjLogan 2:36 AM - 12 February, 2010
YA any update on this?
Michael R 3:54 AM - 12 February, 2010
Hey guys,

We're still working on this, we'll keep you posted :)
Silvio Z 12:47 AM - 18 February, 2010
Hi Guys, I performed a test on our Win7 32-bit box.

SSL 192
SL1
Vista Driver
HC4500 firmware v1006

= No problem.
James 1:57 AM - 18 February, 2010
J.J., what CPU does your computer have in it? Is it an Intel i5?
J.J. 4:18 PM - 18 February, 2010
HP dv6t Quad Edition i7-720QM with Windows 7 64bit. It also happened on my Pentium 4 3.4ghz Dell with Windows 7 32bit.

However, I used MIDI-OX to see if I could override the default MIDI native support in SSL in v2.0 beta. Ever since then, the Jog Wheel works great.

I will try it on my old 3.4ghz laptop...
Silvio Z 4:54 PM - 18 February, 2010
Looks like MIDI OX cleared the hairball in the MIDI pipe
DJLMS 8:08 PM - 23 February, 2010
Hi, just received my new HP DV6t series with Intel's I7 processor yesterday and found the same issue with my HC-4500. No issues with Virtual DJ or RPM (I downloaded both trial version for comparison).
James 9:23 PM - 24 February, 2010
Hmm ok. There definitely seems to be a pattern with the i series processors.
DjLogan 2:22 PM - 26 February, 2010
It's not just with the I series My laptop is a PentiumR Dual Core
Mr Fusion 2:54 PM - 26 February, 2010
Hey Silvio!

Has your team at Denon also tested the DN-2500 unit?
DjLogan 10:56 PM - 27 February, 2010
Silvio can you expand on MIDI OX ? How does it clear the "hairball in MIDI pipe" ? I've downloaded that program but can't figure out what to do with it
DjLogan 5:08 PM - 1 March, 2010
Or J.J. can you explain what you did? (MIDI OX)
DJ-DeReS 12:20 AM - 11 March, 2010
My question is relative to everyone else within this post. I have SL3, installed everything OK, added all my files, analyzed everything, no USB drop outs. I bought a Denon HC4500 unit a few days ago and the jog is uber slow. My laptop is brand new:

Gateway
Core i3 Cpu
4 gigs ddr3 ram
ATI dedicated video card, 1 gig ram
Windows 7 Home Premuim 64bit

All drivers updated, no bios updates available

I also have two other systems i have tested the denon controller on with SL3, and it works on my other two systems/OS's fine, jog wheel operated normally, specs of other two systems

AMD 64X2 6000+ 3.0 GHZ
4 gigs ram
Asus video card, 512 ram
Windows 7 ultimate 64 bit

AMD 64X2 6000+ 3.0 GHZ
4 gigs ram
Asus video card, 512 ram
Windows XP Pro 32 bit

Thoughts? Opinions?Solutions?
DJLMS 3:38 AM - 15 March, 2010
I need to outfit another system with a new PC laptop. Does anyone know know if there are there any brands/configs that will avoid this issue?
DjLogan 5:01 AM - 15 March, 2010
Unfortunently most new laptops come with Win7 with no support for XP (no drivers) so find one that has XP drivers, Wait or buy a Macbook (it pains me to say this lmao)
DjLogan 5:30 AM - 15 March, 2010
My Laptop Asus K60in came with both 64bit and 32bit version of Win7. I just redid HDD installing 32bit version on Laptop and it did not correct this issue. My Denon HD2500 is still usless with this laptop.
Michael R 3:58 AM - 16 March, 2010
Hi all,

Could anyone having this problem please go to your laptop manufacturers website and see if there is BIOS update available for your machine? If so, please install it and see if that helps with this issue. Please let us know if this helps :)
DjLogan 11:31 AM - 16 March, 2010
My Bios and drivers are up to date Asus K60in
DJ-DeReS 12:45 PM - 16 March, 2010
All my drivers and BIOS are up to date, i am checking DAILY to see if there's a BIOS update for my laptop, hoping there will be a Bios update, laptop : Gateway NV5909H
Matt-C 9:30 PM - 16 March, 2010
Hi guys.
Can you please let us know your BIOS versions?
DjLogan 2:04 AM - 18 March, 2010
Hello Matt-C, Bios ver. 208 Asus K60in
I went back to Win7 64Bit after I tried 32Bit with no luck
Denon HD2500
Sloooooo
Please Fix
Matt-C 3:39 AM - 18 March, 2010
Cool, keep em coming. Hopefully we can get a list of any bad BIOS versions to help apply pressure to the vendors so things work.... Although judging by the mounting pressure throughout the tech world with USB issues and the new Intel i-series chipsets, most vendors will be aware of this issue, even if they are dragging their heels getting new BIOS updates out.

Cheers.
DjLogan 3:52 PM - 18 March, 2010
So the issue is with the Bios?
I dont have an I series Laptop it is a Pentuum R Dual Core.
Thanks for the info ... Make sure you Bust there balls really good ... ill help
I am emailing Asus Tech support right now!
DJ-DeReS 10:02 PM - 19 March, 2010
Hey Matt-c

Here's my specs..........

Gateway NV59 series laptop ( NV5909H )
Bios V1.09
Intel Core i3 Cpu
4 gigs ram ddr3 1066
Ati dedicated Video, HD 5650 with 1 gig ram

Hope fully we can figure out a fix or a BIOS update from our manufactures
DJ-DeReS 12:47 PM - 26 March, 2010
Hey Matt-C

Just wanted to give you some info, i did some OS testing with my Serato ( version 1.9.2 ) and my Denon HC4500.

My laptop specs are:

Gateway NV59 series laptop ( NV5909H )
Bios V1.09
Core i3 Cpu
4 gigs ddr3 ram
ATI dedicated video card, 1 gig ram
Windows 7 Home Premuim 64bit

My laptop came installed with Windows 7 home Premium 64 bit, and i was having the issue with the slow jog wheel response.

I installed windows 7 ultimate 64 bit and i was getting the same result, the slow jog wheel response.

I installed Vista Ultimate 64 bit, and i had FULL functionuality of the Denon HC4500, NO slow jog wheel response at all. Everything ran smooth!

I attempted to try and install XP Pro 32 and 64 bit flovors but my laptop wanted no part of it, and could not get it to install.

So i am thinking it might not be a BIOS issue, but more along the lines of a driver version issue within Windows 7 suites possibly????

Hoping this helps out with a fix for this issue
Mr Fusion 1:14 PM - 26 March, 2010
Lappy Specs:

Dell XPS M1530
Intel Core 2 Duo T9300 @ 2.5 GHz
4GB RAM
NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT - 256MB
BIOS = A12 (current)

Denon DN-HD2500 (firmware v1400)

SSL v1.9.2
Windows 7 Enterprise 32-bit - Denon DN-HD2500 (SLOW JOG WHEEL)
Windows Vista Enterprise 32-bit - Denon DN-HD2500 works fine
Windows XP Professional 32-bit - Denon DN-HD2500 works fine

Like DJ-DeReS, I do not think that this is a BIOS related issue. Of course, I think that some Serato users may not even know how to keep their machines current with latest firmware, drivers/BIOS upgrades and fixes. So, in some cases, some Serato users may find resolution with a BIOS upgrade, but I do not think that is the universal cause for the slow jog wheel.

Given that the BIOS just essentially checks and initializes hardware prior to passing it to the OS to control, I'm not sure if the issue we're facing here is totally BIOS related. Example, I have had the same BIOS (A12 for Dell XPS M1530) while testing all 3 operating systems listed above. My Denon DN-HD2500 jog wheel works flawlessly on XP and Vista, it does not work in Win7.

I think this is more likely caused by the USB architecture in Windows 7 or that the Serato Vista drivers / Denon Firmware do not meld properly with the Win7 architecture.

If it were truly BIOS related, then why does my Denon DN-HD2500 perform flawlessly on XP and Vista, but not on 7, with no change to my BIOS version. See where I’m going here??
DjLogan 8:44 PM - 26 March, 2010
YA! what they said!
I dont think there is a Win 7 specific driver. I believe it is the Vista driver being used. So with that being said they probally have to rewrite the driver as so it is specific to the WIN 7 O/S as that is where the problem lies.
DjLogan 8:49 PM - 26 March, 2010
BTW I also tried to install XP on my sytem and it said NO F%$#^& WAY so I am stuck another weekend Not using my new Laptop
DJ-DeReS 9:24 PM - 29 March, 2010
Well put Mr Fusion.

Looks like we did some extensive testing ourselves and narrowed down the issue.....i think you are rigtht in saying that the issue lies with the wan Windows 7 is handeling the USB architecture with Serato and the denon hc4500.

I hope Serato developer team is reading these threads and working towards a fix, as alot of "us" users or Serato and Denon controllers have invested a fair bit of money in these produst.
James 9:38 PM - 29 March, 2010
Quote:
I think this is more likely caused by the USB architecture in Windows 7 or that the Serato Vista drivers / Denon Firmware do not meld properly with the Win7 architecture.
We don't make drivers for the HC4500. I'm pretty sure they use the built in Microsoft MIDI driver as well - maybe there is a bug in Microsoft's driver. (Wehave had to get them to fix a MIDI bug in their Vista driver in the past :)
James 9:46 PM - 29 March, 2010
Is it possible that on windows 7 the jog wheel pulse setting on the 4500 is being initialized to the wrong value? Try setting it manually and see if it makes a difference...
DJ-DeReS 10:01 PM - 29 March, 2010
Thanks James,

I think you might be right, it is likely a Microsoft midi dirver version within Windows 7 OS platform, and possibly how Windows 7 OS handles that driver
Quote:
Is it possible that on windows 7 the jog wheel pulse setting on the 4500 is being initialized to the wrong value? Try setting it manually and see if it makes a difference...


I am not sure about the jog setting being the wrong value, how would i go about looking for this setting/value?And how would i set it manually?
Silvio Z 10:24 PM - 29 March, 2010
Guys, for the HC4500 make sure that your preset Pulse setting is set to 1480.

Here's how.....

Push the -preset button down for 2-sec on either deck.
Turn param. to item #7 or until you see, [JOG PulseSel]
Push down on the param, it should default to [1480/Cycle], if not set it to this.
Push [Back] key to exit this item

Next...
Go to item #10 [Touch Init.]
Push param down, [Push to EXE] is displayed
Push param. twice to Initialize and reach [Complete!]
Short push to -preset button to exit

Let us know.
DJ-DeReS 11:29 PM - 29 March, 2010
Thanks Silvio Z,,BUT it made no difference with my unit. It was already set to 1480 cycles.

Like i mentioned before, my Denon HC4500 works fine with other opearting sytems

Works with XP Pro 32bit, Vista Ultimate 64 bit

I only start have the one issue, slow jog wheel response, with Windows 7 OS's


any other idea's??

I am hoping that there will be a fix when Version 2 comes out. ( crossing fingers )
DjLogan 12:23 PM - 30 March, 2010
Silvio, I have the HD2500 and I can not find those options to try.
Midi CH SET
Jog Trns Int
Ive tried each setting
No luck
Quote:

I am hoping that there will be a fix when Version 2 comes out. ( crossing fingers )

+1
Mr Fusion 3:40 PM - 30 March, 2010
Silvio,
I think this link may help those at Denon/Serato test the 2500/4500 units for Win7 USB Midi Driver issues.

It's part of Micro$oft's "Certified for Win 7 Logo" process.

msdn.microsoft.com

Maybe this will eventually lead to a new Denon Firmware for WIn7 users. In a couple weeks, when I have a little more time, I'll do some more testing and update the thread.

Thanks to everyone, for all the comments keeping this thread alive until we have some resolution for Win7 users. We can't keep backtracking to XP for these modern machines that do not have XP driver support. Time to move forward... :)
DJ-DeReS 3:52 PM - 30 March, 2010
Nice find Mr Fusion!

I hope this helps us out with the slow jog wheel response winthin the Windows 7 OS platform, and intel based cpu/chipset laptops.

I think together, with all our input and testing and such we will help with a "fix" for the Denon 2500's and 4500's
Mr Fusion 5:10 PM - 30 March, 2010
...And *cough* *cough* maybe some free gear from Serato/Denon for assisting in keeping these units "natively" supported. :P

I feel a fix brewing...
DJ-DeReS 5:17 PM - 30 March, 2010
Only propper one would think, for the time and effort we are puttting in,since indeed that the Serato site states that these units are " Natively" supported.

I love IT!
Mr Fusion 5:33 PM - 30 March, 2010
True, but the site also says that Win7 is not yet supported... so... We'll get there, eventually. :)

I'd love a pair of Denon's s3700's, ESPECIALLY if they were natively supported.

Wouldn't mind testing that out too. nudge, nudge...
Silvio Z 5:43 PM - 30 March, 2010
Guys, we use MIDIOX as the core app to perform all of our Win MIDI testing.

DL here v7.0 here: (its free)
www.midiox.com

-Make sure HC4500/HD2500 is connected and SSL is closed.
-open app and look for the 5-pin Midi icon, click on it to view a dialog box
-for MIDI Input, highlight in blue, 1) USB Audio Device or it may say dnhc4500
-for MIDI Output, highlight in blue, 1) USB Audio Device or it may say dnhc4500
-hit OK
-move the jog wheel around at different speeds and watch the response

You can also push, turn, move any key/knob/slider see the midi commands
Silvio Z 5:50 PM - 30 March, 2010
...and make sure your SL1/3 box is not connected.
DJ-DeReS 6:02 PM - 30 March, 2010
Quote:
Guys, we use MIDIOX as the core app to perform all of our Win MIDI testing.

DL here v7.0 here: (its free)
www.midiox.com

-Make sure HC4500/HD2500 is connected and SSL is closed.
-open app and look for the 5-pin Midi icon, click on it to view a dialog box
-for MIDI Input, highlight in blue, 1) USB Audio Device or it may say dnhc4500
-for MIDI Output, highlight in blue, 1) USB Audio Device or it may say dnhc4500
-hit OK
-move the jog wheel around at different speeds and watch the response

You can also push, turn, move any key/knob/slider see the midi commands


And what kinda of action or reaction are we looking for within MidiOx?
Silvio Z 6:02 PM - 30 March, 2010
Speed
Mr Fusion 6:14 PM - 30 March, 2010
Thanks Silvio!

I'll give it a whirl and let you know how it goes.

Since MidiOX is not a Microsoft product, and doesn't even include Win7 in the supported OS list, I question why this is the app of choice for Denon's Windows testing environments.

Sure, MidiOX is coded to work on M$ platforms, but why use a 3rd party product when you can go straight to the source and use Micro$oft's testing software?
DJ-DeReS 6:23 PM - 30 March, 2010
Cool Silvio,

I will give it a go as well, and will post you the results/speeds of the jogwheel and such.

This should prove to be interesting
Silvio Z 6:24 PM - 30 March, 2010
Hey Fusion,

Every Dev team uses this great app, including Serato.
Its the BEST app in the world to test MIDI under Windows.
MicroSoft has nothing like this or nothing at all.
Mr Fusion 6:26 PM - 30 March, 2010
Good answer, Silvio! :P

Thanks again for all the info!
DjLogan 3:44 PM - 31 March, 2010
Ive tried it out when it was mentioned earlier however I never knew what to do with the program. Thank you for finally responding. Will post result when later!
DJ-DeReS 12:20 AM - 1 April, 2010
Silvio Z,
I ran MidiOx, not too sure what i am looking for or at though LOL, sorry, i created a log of my findings, Please let me know if this is good or bad....

===> MIDI-OX Version: 7.0.0.365
===> Log Opened: Wed 31-Mar-2010 19:13:55 ===>
TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT
0001961D 1 2 B0 51 3F 1 --- Control Change
0001961D 1 2 B0 51 3F 1 --- Control Change
0001961D 1 2 B0 51 3E 1 --- Control Change
0001961D 1 2 B0 51 3E 1 --- Control Change
0001961D 1 2 B0 51 3D 1 --- Control Change
0001962D 1 2 B0 51 3C 1 --- Control Change
0001962D 1 2 B0 51 3D 1 --- Control Change
0001962D 1 2 B0 51 3C 1 --- Control Change
0001962D 1 2 B0 51 3C 1 --- Control Change
0001962D 1 2 B0 51 3C 1 --- Control Change
0001962D 1 2 B0 51 3B 1 --- Control Change
0001963F 1 2 B0 51 3C 1 --- Control Change
00019642 1 2 B0 51 3B 1 --- Control Change
00019644 1 2 B0 51 3C 1 --- Control Change
00019648 1 2 B0 51 3B 1 --- Control Change
0001964A 1 2 B0 51 3B 1 --- Control Change
0001964E 1 2 B0 51 3C 1 --- Control Change
00019651 1 2 B0 51 3C 1 --- Control Change
00019653 1 2 B0 51 3B 1 --- Control Change
00019657 1 2 B0 51 3C 1 --- Control Change
00019659 1 2 B0 51 3C 1 --- Control Change
DjLogan 4:26 PM - 7 April, 2010
No fix yet?
DJ-DeReS 6:08 PM - 7 April, 2010
I WISH, i tried MidiOx like Silvio Z said, i posted my findings/log, i haven'theard anything back wether my numbers or speed was good or bad or any feedback for that matter. Or any other suggestions, wondering if there's EVER going to be a fix lol
DJ-DeReS 12:15 AM - 8 April, 2010
FYI guys,

I tried the new ScratchLIVE 2.0.0 (20049) Win OFFICIAL release.

It made no difference forme and the slow jog wheel response :( with the Denon HC4500

Has anyone else tried and had better results?

Also has the Serato team figured out a fix? I WAS hoping the 2.0 release would have cured this, apparently not though.
James 1:35 AM - 8 April, 2010
Quote:
Also has the Serato team figured out a fix? I WAS hoping the 2.0 release would have cured this, apparently not though.
Nope not yet :/ It's quite difficult since we can't reproduce the problem here...
DJ-DeReS 1:48 AM - 8 April, 2010
Well if i were located, even remotley close , i would drop you off my unit for testing, if it would help with the testing issues.

But im in Canada :(
DJLMS 8:36 PM - 8 April, 2010
James, you mentioned you can not reproduce this problem. Do you have a computer with an I-Series chip and a Denon HC-4500 controller?

This thread started back in late Oct '09 and Serato's present response is that they can not reproduce this problem. I have no jog wheel lag when using Virtual DJ or RPM with my new HP latop (I7 Intel Processor, Windows 7). I think it is safe to say that this is a contained Serato/midi/windows 7 issue. Please advise.
DJ-DeReS 8:59 PM - 8 April, 2010
Quote:
James, you mentioned you can not reproduce this problem. Do you have a computer with an I-Series chip and a Denon HC-4500 controller?

This thread started back in late Oct '09 and Serato's present response is that they can not reproduce this problem. I have no jog wheel lag when using Virtual DJ or RPM with my new HP latop (I7 Intel Processor, Windows 7). I think it is safe to say that this is a contained Serato/midi/windows 7 issue. Please advise.


I agree with DJLMS

Also, is the testing being done on laptops? or Home Pc's? to replicate "our" problem testing should be done on a somewhat similar system?Mainly newer laptops with similar CPU's, chipsets ect ect ect
James 9:46 PM - 8 April, 2010
Quote:
James, you mentioned you can not reproduce this problem. Do you have a computer with an I-Series chip and a Denon HC-4500 controller?
Yes we do have laptops with i-series chips and 4500 controllers.... Nothing unusual with the setup.
DJLMS 10:31 PM - 8 April, 2010
Does the midi folder appear under "my music" on your computer that has the i-series chip(s)? Could this be a windows 7 version issue? (home, premium, ultimate)?
Mr Fusion 3:30 PM - 9 April, 2010
I do not have a i-Series and can reproduce the slow jog wheel all day long on my DN-HC2500 with SSL 1.9.2 running Win 7 Enterprise 32-bit.

I would be glad to bring my gear to NZ for you to test, if you foot the travel expenses :)

Small price to pay in the long run, guys.
Mr Fusion 4:02 PM - 9 April, 2010
Oh, Ifailed to mention that i haven't gotten around to test MidiOX and send my log file for review. I'll try to get around to it this weekend.
DjLogan 7:47 PM - 9 April, 2010
I dont have an I Series laptop either mine is a PentiumR dual core (whatever that means lol) 64bit Win7 Home and have tried 32bit same issue. Denon HD2500

We cant all be crazy (I think or at least thats what the voices in my head say to me)

What are the specs of your test machines?
What are the settings set at? (that would effect jog performance)

Give us something! some form of troubleshooting to figure this out.

And Im with MrFusion I volunteer to come to NZ with my rig to help you guys figure this out and proove we are all taking our Meds ... Im off summers so make it happen lol
DjLogan 7:48 PM - 9 April, 2010
BTW im Canadian too EH!
DJ-DeReS 9:08 PM - 9 April, 2010
Quote:
Oh, Ifailed to mention that i haven't gotten around to test MidiOX and send my log file for review. I'll try to get around to it this weekend.


I ran MidiOx software...posted my log/finding,last week im still waiting for some feedback LOL
Silvio Z 10:10 PM - 9 April, 2010
Thanks DJ-DeReS, those numbers don’t mean much on paper.
It’s meant to see the Jog response in real time.
DJ-DeReS 10:33 PM - 9 April, 2010
Quote:
Thanks DJ-DeReS, those numbers don’t mean much on paper.
It’s meant to see the Jog response in real time.


So with the File/log i posted earlier

are these numbers good or bad?Now im confused...................
Silvio Z 10:41 PM - 9 April, 2010
The test is to watch the MIDIOX monitor and turn the jog wheel.
If your hand speed matches the data speed, all is good.
DJ-DeReS 10:44 PM - 9 April, 2010
OK then...so in my case....everything matched.....so it must be a Denon->Serato issue then?
Silvio Z 9:46 PM - 10 April, 2010
Please allow the Serato team some more time to evaluate this odd item.
You guys know they always come through...
DJ-DeReS 10:07 PM - 10 April, 2010
I am very sure the Serato team will come through with a fix, thanks Silvio Z for all your supprt and suggestions.

I appreciate it
DJLMS 6:19 PM - 21 April, 2010
Until the Serato guys acknowledge this issue/problem there will not be a fix (see their last reply from April 8th). This is going on for many months now (thread was created Oct 09). Something tells me that we have to wait for more PC users with HC-4500 controllers to upgrade their computers so they too can jump on this bandwagon. The squeeky wheel gets the oil.
DJLMS 5:36 PM - 22 April, 2010
After I wrote yesterday's post, one of my DJs came in and powered up this new system and the Jog Wheel mysteriously worked. I was able to scratch and it functioned normally. We are working on the system now and the jog wheel is back to not functioning properly and has the lag.

The Midi folder has appeared, something I did not see before and I am noticing that Windows 7 does not recognize my MP4, HD or the HC-4500 consistently. Could this be a driver laoding issue?
DjLogan 2:34 PM - 3 May, 2010
Ok After reading DJLMS, post, this past weekend I decided to give the ASUS another Go. I had uninstalled all beta versions of 2.0 already and still havent installed the release 2.0. So I installed 2.0 had SL3 box plugged in without Denon HD2500 plugged in. After Serato installed I started the program, plugged in HD2500, powered on and the switched to MIDI mode. Low and behold my jog wheels worked at normal speed. WOO HOO. I Friday No problems. Saturday I started program with box in and then attached the Denon with the same proceedure and it worked for another night.

Others with this issue, Try this let me know if it works out for you.

Recap
Install Serato with SL plugged in and Controller not.
Run Serato
Plug in USB of Denon Unit
Power up Denon
Switch source to MIDI
Silvio Z 3:04 PM - 3 May, 2010
Great simple find, thanks !
DJ-DeReS 3:33 PM - 3 May, 2010
VERY interesting...will give this a go tonight with my Denon 4500 and see if it works.

Will report back if this procedure works for me or not

could it be THAT simple of a FIX??? LOL A simple power up procedure....i hope so

Quick question though......what exactly do you mean "Switch source to MIDI"? Do you mean internal mode winthin' Serato? Or select source within the Denon controller options?
Silvio Z 3:37 PM - 3 May, 2010
DJ-DeReS, he means...

The HD2500 requires a mode selection to get into MIDI since it can do 4 tasks (HDD, Ext Device, CD control and MIDI.

The HC4500 starts up at MIDI.
DJ-DeReS 3:42 PM - 3 May, 2010
Quote:
DJ-DeReS, he means...

The HD2500 requires a mode selection to get into MIDI since it can do 4 tasks (HDD, Ext Device, CD control and MIDI.

The HC4500 starts up at MIDI.


Ahhhhhhhhhh.....that clears things up for me.....

Thanks Silvio

Will have a go at it tonight.......keeping my fingers crossed that this is a solution for me and many others who have the Denon 4500
DjLogan 3:48 PM - 3 May, 2010
Hope it works out for you. It was SO nice working with the new laptop on the weekend.
DJ-DeReS 3:57 PM - 3 May, 2010
I have been using my new laptop for the past 4 gigs.......NO ISSUES at all.

Just the slow jog wheel response time. NO usb dropouts...ROCK SOLID

I am running SL3, and latest SL 2.0
DJ-DeReS 10:43 PM - 3 May, 2010
Just an FYI for you guys.......i tried DjLogan's advice

Quote:
Ok After reading DJLMS, post, this past weekend I decided to give the ASUS another Go. I had uninstalled all beta versions of 2.0 already and still havent installed the release 2.0. So I installed 2.0 had SL3 box plugged in without Denon HD2500 plugged in. After Serato installed I started the program, plugged in HD2500, powered on and the switched to MIDI mode. Low and behold my jog wheels worked at normal speed. WOO HOO. I Friday No problems. Saturday I started program with box in and then attached the Denon with the same proceedure and it worked for another night.

Others with this issue, Try this let me know if it works out for you.

Recap
Install Serato with SL plugged in and Controller not.
Run Serato
Plug in USB of Denon Unit
Power up Denon
Switch source to MIDI


No luck with my Laptop and Denon 4500, same result, slow jog wheel response time. Works for the 2500 i guess, not for the 4500 :( Im open to all other suggestions
Mr Fusion 10:37 PM - 4 May, 2010
I was super excited to find these posts and couldn't wait to give it a go.

Unfortunately, DJLogan's sequence didn't solve it for me with the HD2500 unit and Win7. After trying it a few times, without success, I reset my HD2500 to it's v1400 defauls and tried again. No love. I un/reinstalled SSL2.0 and tried a few different sequences and even USB ports. Still, no love.

Last week I snagged a friends brand new 17" MacBook Pro and the HD2500's wheel worked as it did on my XP and Vista system. Boo for these issues with my Win7!

In my case, "slow jog wheel" means 5 revolutions of the jog wheel will move the wave form 0.3 seconds.

I hope to hear from some other HD2500 users here in the thread.
Mr Fusion 5:10 PM - 8 May, 2010
OK, I have to post this...

Today, I was playing around with my rig and sure enough my jog wheel is not laggy today on my Win7 Enterprise!

I haven't changed anything at all. I connected SL1 and HD2500 USB (without power) and fired up SSL2.0. Once SSL2.0 came up, I then powered up the HD2500 and set it to MIDI mode. Now the jog wheel works properly as it did on my XP, Vista and Mac tests.

I powered everything off and tried again, and it continues to work properly.

This Win7 system hasn't applied any new MS updates or other updates since my last test. It just mysteriously works today. In the past I have tried so many different combinations without success so I'm not sure what's different today... I'm gonna hold my breath and hope it continues.

I'll keep you all posted here, if it continues or not.
DjLogan 7:45 PM - 11 May, 2010
Sorry no joy for you guys. My rig has worked for me for the steady since my last post. I make sure start uo Serato with box plugged in then plug in 2500 power up and switch to MIDI.
Ill let you guys know if it reverts to having issues
Michael R 5:53 AM - 12 May, 2010
Hey guys,

Thanks for keeping us updated on your findings, we are taking note of this. We're still working on this and may need to get some more info from you all soon.
Michael R 2:48 AM - 25 May, 2010
Hi all,

Just a heads up - we have finally had a breakthrough and have found a computer on which we've been able to reproduce this issue. We are looking into the cause of the problem, we'll let you know when we have more info. Thank you all for your patience with this issue.
DJ-DeReS 1:09 PM - 25 May, 2010
Sweet deal........i hope you guys can find the cause of the issue......GO TEAM SERATO!!!!!!
DJLMS 5:28 PM - 26 May, 2010
Hallelujah
J.J. 8:44 PM - 27 May, 2010
Sounds good Michael. I tried to do more testing with the Sixty-Eight, but SSL 2.0.1 crashes with the DN-HC4500 plugged in while starting SSL.
DJ-DeReS 8:51 PM - 27 May, 2010
Just curious, SSL 2.0.1 ????

Wherer would I be able to find/test it myself?
J.J. 3:25 AM - 29 May, 2010
It came with the Rane Sixty-Eight. You can download it here serato.com

It's no different with 2.0.0. It just has 68 support and drivers. It's not a problem with SL1 or SL3. There is a problem with the HID output to the DN-HC4500 and Sixty-Eight. When I disable MIDI output on the 4500 via MIDIOX www.midiox.com there is no crashing.
Michael R 4:23 AM - 31 May, 2010
A quick question for you all, do you have QuickTime installed?
Michael R 4:24 AM - 31 May, 2010
Quote:
Just curious, SSL 2.0.1 ????

Wherer would I be able to find/test it myself?

2.0.1 is just 2.0 with included support for the Sixty-Eight mixer, there are no bug fixes. You won't need to use this if you don't have the Sixty-Eight :)
DJ-DeReS 12:54 PM - 31 May, 2010
Quote:
A quick question for you all, do you have QuickTime installed?


I do not have quicktime installed.

Is there a need to? Does Searto/Denon HC4500 needs soemthing shared from Quicktime?

I always thought Quicktime was more for video than audio functionability.
Michael R 3:09 AM - 1 June, 2010
QuickTime is used to decode AAC and ALAC audio files also, not just video files :) You don't need to have it installed, but we've found on our test machine here that if you do install it then the DN-HC4500 starts working correctly with Scratch Live. I was curious to see if this works for you all too.
DJ-DeReS 12:42 PM - 1 June, 2010
Quote:
QuickTime is used to decode AAC and ALAC audio files also, not just video files :) You don't need to have it installed, but we've found on our test machine here that if you do install it then the DN-HC4500 starts working correctly with Scratch Live. I was curious to see if this works for you all too.


INTERESTING, i will have a go it it then. I will install quicktime and see if it makes any difference with my and my set up.

I will report back with my results
DJ-DeReS 10:08 PM - 1 June, 2010
Quote:
Quote:
QuickTime is used to decode AAC and ALAC audio files also, not just video files :) You don't need to have it installed, but we've found on our test machine here that if you do install it then the DN-HC4500 starts working correctly with Scratch Live. I was curious to see if this works for you all too.


INTERESTING, i will have a go it it then. I will install quicktime and see if it makes any difference with my and my set up.

I will report back with my results


OK so i downloaded the latest free version of Quicktime.

Installed it

And now my Denon HC4500 works FLAWLESSLY!

The jog wheel response time is NORMAL!!!!!

I am sooooooooooooooooooo happy, words cannot explain.

Thank you Tem Serato!
nik39 10:14 PM - 1 June, 2010
Wow, someone has to explain the connection between the platter speed recognition and the Quicktime influence on that. Wow.
DJ-DeReS 10:34 PM - 1 June, 2010
I know eh.....i dont care about the theory behind it, All i really care isthat my Denon 4500 controller works 100% now.
Andy W 10:42 PM - 1 June, 2010
Quote:
Wow, someone has to explain the connection between the platter speed recognition and the Quicktime influence on that. Wow.

There's most likely a bug in there somewhere, possibly a spot of memory corruption or something pointing to the wrong place in memory - when Scratch Live loads up with Quicktime installed it does things slightly differently and that change in memory layout suppresses the problem. So, it may not be a "connection" between the two, more likely a "coincidence".

If that's what it is, the nature of that kind of bug makes it very difficult to track down, but we'll keep looking for it...
Mr Fusion 3:16 PM - 3 June, 2010
That was the missing link for me too for the HD2500 unit. I had installed iTunes on this Win 7 machine (which bundles in QuickTime) and that is when my HD2500 started working. Awesome work Serato! Many thanks!!
Silvio Z 3:52 PM - 3 June, 2010
Great work, Serato Team!
nik39 7:56 PM - 5 March, 2011
Quote:
Quote:


Wow, someone has to explain the connection between the platter speed recognition and the Quicktime influence on that. Wow.

There's most likely a bug in there somewhere, possibly a spot of memory corruption or something pointing to the wrong place in memory - when Scratch Live loads up with Quicktime installed it does things slightly differently and that change in memory layout suppresses the problem. So, it may not be a "connection" between the two, more likely a "coincidence".

If that's what it is, the nature of that kind of bug makes it very difficult to track down, but we'll keep looking for it...

Were you able to find the issue?
MixGuy2k 4:34 AM - 5 May, 2011
I am also following up on this issue. Will there be a fix in 2.3?
Chad S. 5:30 PM - 5 May, 2011
I came across a way to reset the 2500 back to defaults using the Denon Utility function within the menu options. According to one of the users, preset #26 allows you to change the Jog Wheel response time in milliseconds. A setting of 2ms seems to work the best with SSL. If the response time is too high, the above problem occurs.

The 4500 may be similar. I imagine the denon experts can tell you how to access this setting on that unit.
DJ RJ 2:06 AM - 30 August, 2011
Hi Guys,
This will help some of you with the Denon HC4500.

Push the -preset button down for 2-sec on deck 1.
Turn param. to PRESET -6 or until you see, [JOG Trns Int]
Push down on the param, Turn Param. Button to ( 1ms )
Push down on the param again
Push the -preset button down once to exit

Repeat steps on deck 2

Let me know if it worked for you!!

DJ RJ
CSR 12:56 PM - 10 September, 2011
DJ RJ, this post is kind of misleading. Unfortunately, I read your post first and followed this red herring. The issue is indeed fixed through the simple installation of QuickTime on the W7 machine... settings in the Denon have nothing to do with the slowdown. Also, after following your instructions, finding no result, then installing QuickTime, one has to go back and reset their Denon settings.

Luckily, you don't have to "Repeat steps on deck 2" --the setting affects both decks.

***Thanks to Micheal R for the answer... QuickTime was it!***
MixGuy2k 4:37 PM - 10 September, 2011
+1
DJ RJ 5:54 PM - 10 September, 2011
I was just trying to help!
And I guess it I didn't mention that it was for Macs not windows.