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Interesting article about undercutting DJs

djcableuk 10:55 PM - 31 May, 2013
been following this blog since I read the "no requests" article via DJ Forums...thought I'd share with you lot, seeing as there have been a few threads on here in the past about undercutting djs

thefrustrateddj.blogspot.co.uk

some valid points, especially the mathematical breakdown
BIGG BEAR 2:22 AM - 2 June, 2013
Yeah good article,what he actually forgot to factor in was tax and national inssurance so the amount would be even less by about another 27%
djcableuk 2:44 AM - 2 June, 2013
Very true.

Personally I think promoters are equally to blame for the drop in prices and lack of quality control...
BIGG BEAR 2:45 AM - 3 June, 2013
Yes promoters and agents,agents don't give a fuck so long as they get their 15%
DJ Starjack 4:58 AM - 3 June, 2013
It's called supply and demand. There is obviously an over abundance of DJ's now. More than ever. Who cares if they are any good or not. It doesn't matter. That's all relative. The consumer (the purchaser, the one paying for the dj) is going to want to pay as little as possible. We are in the Walmart era. When you can get it cheaper from this guy over hear then why should I buy from you? It's the same in alot of other technology related fields right now. Technology has become so advanced and affordable that anyone can become a DJ or Photographer over night. If you sit around and complain about not making money in this field then maybe it's time to go back to school and get a degree in law or medicine. Something where Joe Shmo can't take your job because he underbid you because he is willing to work for $50. I still DJ but it's not the only thing I do for an income luckily.
DJ Reflex 9:58 PM - 3 June, 2013
^^ Was just talking to a photographer the other night about this same concept. While she was busy complaining about the whole thing and being undercut for the last 5 years by every newbie with an iPhone, I was telling her that my business is soaring! Although there are a ton of wannabe overnight DJs in my area, I can still hold my own as a mobile service. These things go in cycles, but quality always trumps lowest bidder! We are just in a down swing right now.
Dj-M.Bezzle 11:02 PM - 3 June, 2013
Quote:


Now kids, you might think you're living the life by doing loads of gigs because you've undercut everyone, but let's do some simple maths and break it all down.Let's say for instance, that you play up to 5 nights a week, from 10pm-3am (average nightclub opening times) for 50 quid a night. That's £250 gross income for 25 hours. You'll most likely leave for work about an hour before you're due to play, and will probably get home an hour later after you finish for the night. That's another 10 hours per week added on to your total.You might spend a few hours a week getting new music, updating your social networks, etc. Let's say that takes around another 7 hours per week on average (1 hour per day). That's already 42 hours' worth of work per week for £250.Now let's deduct the costs.If you drive to most of your gigs, you'll no doubt have to fill up on petrol or diesel. The average person spends about £25 on petrol, so let's say for argument's sake that you spend £50, which also includes any car park fees that you might incur.Unless you play really shitty YouTube rips in the club, you most likely buy your music via Beatport or iTunes, or a pay a subscription to an online record pool. £10 per week, maybe?You might even fork out for food and drinks (depending on whether you get a bar tab thrown in), which might set you back another£10 per week, depending on how much you drink.So with all those costs deducted, you work a 42 hour week for £180.Divide £180 by 42 hours, and you get £4.29 per hour. Congratulations, you've just earned less than minimum wage! How stupid do you feel now?




To be fair theres another way of looking at this that isnt being taken into consideration
DJMark 11:34 PM - 3 June, 2013
Honestly this "undercutting DJ's" thing is really really old, at least in larger cities.

I recall reading an anguished-sounding article in a DJ-oriented magazine about "cheap wedding DJ's"...the hot-button issue back then being DJ's using cassette tapes recorded off the radio instead of CD's or records. That was at least 20 years ago and probably longer than that.

The only thing that's really changed is the technical details.
BIGG BEAR 12:58 AM - 4 June, 2013
Quote:
To be fair theres another way of looking at this that isnt being taken into consideration


I'm all ears!
djcableuk 10:30 AM - 4 June, 2013
Quote:
Honestly this "undercutting DJ's" thing is really really old, at least in larger cities.

I recall reading an anguished-sounding article in a DJ-oriented magazine about "cheap wedding DJ's"...the hot-button issue back then being DJ's using cassette tapes recorded off the radio instead of CD's or records. That was at least 20 years ago and probably longer than that.

The only thing that's really changed is the technical details.


Cassettes tapes? wow...

Seems a lifetime ago that I was using TDK tapes to record my mixtapes, haha
DJ ST 1:13 PM - 4 June, 2013
Undercutting is an issue as the technology makes DJing more and more accessible.
But technology doesn't teach you how to:
- what song to play next, that'll fit the mood
- what songs you SHOULD play at certain times and what you SHOULDN'T
- how long you should let the songs play
- how to READ the crowd
As long as I can do those, because I didn't cut corners in my learning curve, I'm not TOO worried (although I secretly hate those yellowbelly cunts).

Let me tell you a story (long, but I'll try to get to the point):
I come from the 3rd biggest city in Finland (≈180k people, ≈ 8-9 000 students). In 2011 there were 5 big clubs (capacity over 700). One got renovated, with about 500 000€. It had two floors, upper floor with more of a clubby sound and the lower floor (with adjoined courtyard patio) with a more "urban" (Rap/R&B/Dancehall) touch. I was put on charge of the lower floor. It took me about month and a half, 3 nights a week (of banging my head to the wall), to build up a steady following of customers, who KNEW, that from the moment they step in that I'd play those three genres.

After two months I started to have packed nights, on Fridays and Saturdays, from 23.00 o'clock to the last call (03.30) and Wednesdays didn't look too bad either. And this point I was doing the nights for 150€. After the summer I asked for a raise and I was met with something muttered about "...you know...times are tough...we just renovated...let's see later..." I continued to do the nights, and build up following and in September (club opened in June), many nights I drew in more people to the bottom floor than the upper floor.
Again, asking for a raise, same shit.

At the end of December I packed my bags and moved to Toronto for my exchange period.
In February I called my friend who was the other DJ, and he said "It has been absolute shit, last Saturday we had 120 (yes, one hundred and twenty) customers, instead of the normal 1 000+. Could you fly back?" I came back in late May, and immediately got approached by the booking promoter. I asked 200€/night, he declined, the club shut down in late June. Co-incidence? Maybe...

The same guy, who paid to me, was in charge of booking two other clubs (capacities 1 200 and 1 000). And he has systematically pushed down the prices so low, that if you want to spin in clubs in Turku, you HAVE to bend down to 150€/night (unless you have A LOT of clout or name/brand). One of the clubs indeed went bankrupt, one of them is doing OK (mainly because they have live bands in addition to DJ, and age limit is 22+) and the other big club has been on a downward spiral for a year. Two weeks ago one of them had 10 customers (yes, 10, as it TEN) on a Friday night. On the other hand, one of the mid-sized clubs (capacity 700), has for the last two years constantly payed to their DJs 200€+ (I think closer to 250-350€/night), and they are THE nightclub to go to in Turku, for the last year or so.

The DJs in that club from average to good (one of them 3-times Finnish DJ Champ, NOT DMC-level, but club-rocking), but they got PAID = MOTIVATION TO DO YOUR JOB WELL.

This is what it comes down to. If you don't get paid according to your skills, you switch jobs. But as a DJ, living in a certain city it is not that easy. The circles are small. And after 6 years living in that city (plus 21 in a town nearby), I hit the "glass-ceiling". Couldn't get in to that one clubs DJ-booth as a resident (although I've played there about 20 times), and wouldn't take crap pay from that promoter. So I moved to the capital city, Helsinki, two months ago for more opportunities, and frankly, for better pay.

Sorry, long rant, but I just wanted to shed a light on this.
R-Tistic 7:28 PM - 4 June, 2013
Nowadays, what I feel is even worse than undercutting is the fact that promoters are really just hiring promoters who kinda halfway know how to DJ. Or, DJs who aren't good, but bring a million people because they used to be regular promoters.

Feels like I started getting way more gigs once promoters knew that I can bring a crowd out...but what bothers me is that they seem to be more concerned about me bringing this crowd than anything on the music side. Some of them hit me every other day before an event to ask, "you still pushin it?" "you got a lotta folks comin thru?" "you got anybody buying bottles?"

It's even where some promoters are ONLY paying you for bringing people. I've seen deals where they hire 3-6 DJ's for a night, with some only getting 20 and 30 minute sets, and they're paid based on how many people say their name at the door.
Chrisjin 9:51 PM - 4 June, 2013
Divide £180 by 42 hours, and you get £4.29 per hour. Congratulations, you've just earned less than minimum wage!

this shit cracked me up
Code:E 2:46 AM - 5 June, 2013
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Yes promoters and agents,agents don't give a fuck so long as they get their 15%

I disagree with this. I work for the largest promoter in town and the only promotion company that brings in any A-list acts. Our musical integrity is of the outmost importance to us. Now I understand we might not be the norm everywhere but to group all promoters together is wrong.

Even the other 2 big promoters in town only put on DJ's who have paid there dues. 1 year min in the local scene with quality mixes put out. And finally something a lot of you might hate, they must have min 700 FB friends and be willing to promote to every single one of them. They also need todo 2 or more posts a day until the show. And if the show is not one of the massive easy sell outs where we only put tickets online or in 1 or 2 outlets, they are expected to sell tickets also (they do get paid $2 off each ticket). This is all standard by all the reputable promoters around here.

Now there are a few shady shitty promoters in town who think they are all that, they book there friends (who are usually university kids) to open and think they are awesome because they booked some D list artist. Little do they know they only got the offer because we passed on it.

I find those are the promoters causing the problem.

I will admit we don't pay well generally to most of our openers. There is usually 3 or 4 of them before the headliner, but the actual opener gets compensated fairly. But we are booking them for opening for A-list artists. And this path has lead our DJ's in the past into higher paying gigs both on tours and into top level residency's.

Now we are not the kind of promoter who puts on shows with just our staff DJ's. We try to focus on big shows. I'm sure there are many promoters out there just doing there residents only shows and that I believe the problem lies. These kinds of promoters set no standard for there acts, only basing bookings off promotional ability. I know i never have to worry about an undercutter because I only play for the big promoter.

I have been to to Turku it was an awesome party. But that was back in 2003.
BIGG BEAR 11:49 PM - 5 June, 2013
Quote:
And finally something a lot of you might hate, they must have min 700 FB friends and be willing to promote to every single one of them. They also need todo 2 or more posts a day until the show. And if the show is not one of the massive easy sell outs where we only put tickets online or in 1 or 2 outlets, they are expected to sell tickets also (they do get paid $2 off each ticket). This is all standard by all the reputable promoters around here.


So the best Dj will not always get the gig,but the best promoter who can also dj will.

This promoter will also be required to work for next to fuck all promoting the event and selling tickets just in order to get a gig,no thanks I'm out.

I can't do anything about the way things are but I don't have to like it.

Isn't the event promoter the one that's supposed to be doing all the leg work and have the contacts,sell the tickets and do the advertising,as they are the ones who are going to make the big bucks.
Code:E 11:56 PM - 5 June, 2013
The event promotion company employees the people who promote> some of the people they employ are dj's.


Quote:
So the best Dj will not always get the gig,but the best promoter who can also dj will.

If you replaced "can" with "is still a great DJ' than yes and I honestly don't see anything wrong with it. If you think is his day and age you can just practice your skills at home and still demand respect and pay your wrong. You need to push yourself and the people you work with as well. Now some DJ's go big by doing a ton of work at home alone post some videos and content online and promote themselves that way and so do it by working with promoters to get real gigs in front of real crowds. either way you do it it is still the same. You got to promote yourself to get noticed.
BIGG BEAR 12:31 AM - 6 June, 2013
I think its a shame when DJing just becomes a popularity contest,if you have great djs who are into promoting then good for you and that's maybe the way things are these days but I see promoting and DJing as two separate things.
Do they use the same tactics when dishing out the bar tending jobs?
I still think it's a way to get people to work for nothing in hope of the promised land ahead!
Code:E 12:58 AM - 6 June, 2013
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ys but I see promoting and DJing as two separate things.

How?

If you are in a band you are expected by the other members of your band to tell everyone how awesome you are and to try and get gigs booked for the group.
BIGG BEAR 1:29 AM - 6 June, 2013
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How?

If you are in a band you are expected by the other members of your band to tell everyone how awesome you are and to try and get gigs booked for the group.


You didn't have to tell anyone,people would see you play and understand you were good because they could tell the difference,and the bookings would come from there.

It used to be that being a bit stand offish was seen as being sort of cool but nowadays its like everyones chasing everybody to make friends with every tom dick and harry.

Maybe its just that times have changed,people used to go to see a dj play because they liked the music the way it was put together and to dance not to stand facing the stage starring at the dj like its some sort of pop concert.

Facebook friends are just throwaway I don't even know who 95% of the people on my facebook are and facebook posting marketing seems to me just like spamming people.

Maybe I'm wrong its just my opinion,perhaps you can tell me how to use fb to good effect?
I just remember the days when the DJ was paid to DJ and that was it.
BIGG BEAR 1:56 AM - 6 June, 2013
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And finally something a lot of you might hate, they must have min 700 FB friends and be willing to promote to every single one of them.


Cod E just looked at your facebook and you only have 626 people on there :)
No gigs for you then! I'm only messing
Code:E 4:51 AM - 6 June, 2013
Thats my page. Very true. But pages mean shit, you have to pay to promote with them. We are talking friends list. We look into your Friends list the people you can invite to event and tag in post. You can't do either with a page. And You notice my page really only has self promotion on it. Just my way of doing it. Check my account wall and its a different story.
DJ Remy USA 5:37 AM - 6 June, 2013
Quote:
Quote:
ys but I see promoting and DJing as two separate things.

How?

If you are in a band you are expected by the other members of your band to tell everyone how awesome you are and to try and get gigs booked for the group.


Code E your respectable but I disagree. If the DJ is doing all that promoting then he may as well get paid as the promoter and DJ. Its a shame promoters rely on the acts to sell tickets when in fact the promoter promotes to sell tickets. Maybe I missed out but if I'm promoting that heavy then I feel I need to be cut in on what the promoter makes and still get paid to DJ.
DJ Remy USA 5:39 AM - 6 June, 2013
FYI Facebook promoting is not real promoting you may get 10-20% of your clientele off Facebook or social media the rest is based off your brand and track record. Again maybe I'm wrong
Code:E 6:40 AM - 6 June, 2013
10-20% is worth it. 2 Djs with 10-20% equal skill and one promotes and DJs always taking the Promoting one
Code:E 6:51 AM - 6 June, 2013
Remy I get where you're coming from. And its a really good honest place. Too bad that has no place in the business world. Any promoter not running like a business is not doing it right or as good as they could be.

I'm all business, all the time. I bring in artists people like, I have promoters out there educating their friends, selling tickets, creating hype, putting out posters and flyers plus doing the whole social media thing (required twitter, instagram and facbook pages). My DJ's are all expected to do the same as the rest of the team.

Don't get me wrong I do this because I love the music, I love the people, I love the industry. and its an amazing job to have, I go to parties and concerts for work. But this is work and work is a business.
DJ Remy USA 12:48 AM - 11 June, 2013
Agreed still the promoter should not rely on the numbers of said DJ when his whole point is to get heads in the door. Yes DJs should promote the events they are spinning at, however just because he is pushing the event the promoter still needs to be held responsible if the party bombs and barely anyone shows.
Code:E 3:43 AM - 11 June, 2013
I'm not saying to blame a DJ for anything. The promoter is in charge and the show is his ultimate responsibility, but the DJ is a perspective employee, and it is just expected for him to do promotions as part of his overal job.
 6 3:49 AM - 11 June, 2013
Negative. A DJ's job is to play music and entertain the crowd. Promotions is the job of the PROMOTER. If you don't agree, then the DJ should also get a cut of the promoter's money for doing part of his job.

nm
 6 4:04 AM - 11 June, 2013
Quote:
Quote:
ys but I see promoting and DJing as two separate things.

How?

If you are in a band you are expected by the other members of your band to tell everyone how awesome you are and to try and get gigs booked for the group.


Oh how wrong you are. That's of the band is a small ass band that no one knows. Otherwise they have their own promotion company behind them AND they're own agents who also search for gigs.

Nm
Code:E 6:11 AM - 11 June, 2013
6 I think you are looking at a promoter as one guy who knows alot of people and not what they really are. CEO of a company that hires people to DJ and Promote shows. Some people get hired to do both things. Some (Big name DJ's with draw) are not expected to invite there friends on facebook or sell tickets personal They are on tour and have there own draw. Any local DJ should not put them self above promoting and helping the show out. Honestly if your not good enough to tour or be billed as the headliner your not good enough to not promote. the kinds of shows we do are all Headliner based shows. I just booked 6 other opening acts (including the back room) All of whom are DJs and are also part of our promotion team. If your not willing to work for us as a promoter your not a DJ on our roster. How is this wrong. Why should the DJ not be expected to invite his FB friends. Why is the DJ's job description limited to DJing, Why can't he be both. And why would I want to hire one and I can hire both. You say the DJ should get a share of the door yet he didnt put up a penny to put the show on. DJ who play res gigs don't expect the club owners to give the a cut of bar sales. Dj's don;t own the venue and pay the bills. Also who benifits fromt he DJ slot in the long term. Lets say I book some local kid with lots of passion and he likes to produce and along with production guys like to promote there production. Now i just gave the Dj the ablitly to promote there own tracks live and to build a reputation for them self. Now lets say some time goes by this DJ starts to get recognition sells some tracks, starts to get booked as a headliner (not by me) and really gets there foot in the door and becomes something big. What part of that do I get. Nothing, but without me the DJ never would have had a gig to play at. It still doesn't matter I didn't invest into his time (like a label would) so I dont get any of those profits. I think everything works out just fine.
 6 8:29 AM - 11 June, 2013
Everything works out fine.... as long as things work out in your favor, of course.

Why shouldn't the promoter also DJ? Hey, the DJ is doing part of their job so get off your ass on social media thinking you're doing much and get behind the decks.

A promoter can be a person or a group of people but they usually don't include the DJ. The promoter should pass out flyers, do radio advertising, use social media or anything in their power to get the right people for the right event. This also may include hiring DJ's who have a following and sometimes those who do not for opening slots and what not. But to expect a DJ to do part of your job as a promoter and not rip any of the benefits of it is idiotic, to say the least. Let the DJ decide for themselves. They too can invest in promotions to get a cut and then, only then, should they also promote as they would benefit directly from their work.

A DJ should promote himself to increase his potential for employment but he shouldn't be pimped by promoters and that is exactly what has been happening for years. Oh yeah, come DJ for us for a few buck but you have to bring x amount of people in the door. This is exactly why lots of shady promoters have 10 DJ's in 5 hours or less.

Let the DJ do HIS JOB which includes entertaining people and doing such a good job that people will keep coming back. The truth is that if there are good DJ's, promotion will be minimal after the customers get a taste of the talent. I've seen it plenty of times. The promoter makes an initial investment then kicks back with minimal effort because the DJ or DJ's are doing their job by keeping customers coming back.

Honestly, if you're good enough to promote you either shouldn't be a DJ or you should be promoting your own events while also being the DJ.

nm
Code:E 5:56 PM - 11 June, 2013
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The promoter should pass out flyers, do radio advertising, use social media or anything in their power to get the right people for the right event.

And in doing that having the DJ promote to there friends is exactly what they want. It is there target demographic.


Quote:
But to expect a DJ to do part of your job as a promoter and not rip any of the benefits of it is idiotic,


What? no its not. The "promoters?" (from now all called the street team) receives zero $ off the top based on the events success. The Dj's are part of the street team. Every Promotion company around hear works like this. To DJ for a a promoter at one of there events generally you also need to be part of there street team. If you not you have ZERO chance of playing. This is the job we hire for. Lots of DJ's turn it down and they never get to play out live (except for random bush raves that really don't help them get there name out there in anyway).

Like i said Lets say i bring in Borgore, Artist fees advertising and rider's hotel all in cost the promoter $10k. That all money out of his pocket. I hire 3 locals to open and expect them to promote on their Facebook, posts daily that they are playing this event. I had them 10 tickets (or more if they want more) and ask them to sell them (if they don't it's not like they loose their slot, but generally if they are in tune with the scene they will have friends going to the event and selling 10 tickets takes zero work at all). Did I mention they keep the $3 service charge off each ticket. So if they do no work to sell 10 tickets to 10 friends who would go anyway they made an extra $30. Now we also have 20 other Street team members (which the DJ is part of) doing the same thing with tickets and social media. None of them put up a penny of that $10K. and assume the show sells out there could be, maybe, if nothing goes wrong $3K in profit at the end of the day. What right does the DJ have to that money.

If you work in retail at best buy, and you sell a TV, does best buy owe you part of the profits because you sold a TV? No they compensate you wiha wage. Your a mcdonalds till person. Do you expect Mc donalds to pay you a % off the sales you ring in?

Quote:
Oh yeah, come DJ for us for a few buck but you have to bring x amount of people in the door. This is exactly why lots of shady promoters have 10 DJ's in 5 hours or less.

I never said we do anything like that. I'm sure that happens. But not by everyone. There are promotion companies out there thinking they're cool and putting on parties with no headliners and they are essentially "promoted" theme parties. Well anyone stupid enough to play those gigs should have get stuck with the idiot promoters putting them on and should have to bring 10 friends. I mean thats why the promoter hired them, for their draw.

Quote:
Let the DJ do HIS JOB which includes entertaining people and doing such a good job that people will keep coming back.

And how are people going to know to come back unless they know who the DJ is. 9 times out of 10 they people dont give 2 fucks about an openers name who they are where they are from. They are there for the headliner. How will people know who he is if he doesn't promote himself and promote that he is playing the event. And then promote he is playing the next event. Why would the promoter do all the work to make him famous and get zero benefit from it. Thats what labels are for.

Quote:
The truth is that if there are good DJ's, promotion will be minimal after the customers get a taste of the talent. I've seen it plenty of times. The promoter makes an initial investment then kicks back with minimal effort because the DJ or DJ's are doing their job by keeping customers coming back.

Quote:
Honestly, if you're good enough to promote you either shouldn't be a DJ or you should be promoting your own events while also being the DJ.


It's clear you're not a promoter and you don't truly understand the business model.
If you want to promote your own show go do that. What club will take you. What agency will let you book a headliner, who will help you flyer and sell tickets, who will do your posters and print, who will sell these tickets for you, how will you build the relationships with outlets. Who is going to bank roll this whole thing on a DJ's wage? What are you going todo when you lose money on a show?
I think a lot of the old school guys need to get of the high horse. If you don't want to promote, find a res gig that doesn't require it and don't bitch when your never booked to play shows. Thats what I do. I have a weekly gig at the biggest night club doing there busiest night (saturdays) always int here main room. I get paid well with lots of perks. But I don't promote there. I also work for a promoter who does shows at any venue the makes sense. And because of that relationship and the promotion I do I have been lucky enough to open for the whos who in the EDM world. A small list includes Afrojack, TIESTO, DEADMAU5, BENNY BENASSI, WOLFGANG GARTNER, MAX VANGELI, SPENCER & HILL, DESIGNER DRUGS, ROGER SANCHEZ, FUNKAGENDA, TOMMY LEE & DJ AERO, PAUL OAKENFOLD, CALVIN HARRIS, KASKADE. Now that I manage the street team (including the DJs) I would not dare give some kid who thinks hes all that and is too good to promote a slot opening for any of these artist or at any show we do.
Dj-M.Bezzle 6:42 PM - 11 June, 2013
^you really dont see whats wrong with that senario?
Dj-M.Bezzle 6:52 PM - 11 June, 2013
Mabye if i repeat what you said in a shorter way youll get it

A) Promoter pays $10grand for borgore
B) you run around and pass out fliers
C) you spend all day messaging on facebook
D) you make alot of phone calls
E) you buy music
F) you organise a set
G) you drive up to the show
H) you warm up the crowd and provide a large piece if what everyones there to see
I) you help set up and tear down
J) Essentially you worked the ticket booth
K) You walk away with the few hundred you payed yourself via ticket sales
L) Promoter walks away with his initial investment recouped plus another 5 to ten grand for......well for the work you put in


Does best buy or mcdonalds owe you when they sell a tv or a burger, no of course not, but they also do not require you to pass out free samples or do home demonstrations on your days off, they are paying you to sell tvs not do additional sales and marketing on your own time

And what do you mean.you have no right to that money YOUR THE PRODUCT HES SELLING without you there is no show
CMOS 6:57 PM - 11 June, 2013
I love the justification of the problem.
 6 6:59 PM - 11 June, 2013
Quote:
If you work in retail at best buy, and you sell a TV, does best buy owe you part of the profits because you sold a TV? No they compensate you wiha wage. Your a mcdonalds till person. Do you expect Mc donalds to pay you a % off the sales you ring in?


Here come the non-sense analogies.

First of all, do not compare any other type of business to DJing and if you're going to do so, at least stick to facts and not nonsense.

If you work RETAIL, a lot of times you will get compensated both in your wage (minimum wage) PLUS commission.

McDonalds? Really? Crazy. I don't even know why you even went there.
 6 7:01 PM - 11 June, 2013
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It's clear you're not a promoter and you don't truly understand the business model.


What's clear is that you know nothing about what you're preaching.
 6 7:02 PM - 11 June, 2013
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I do I have been lucky enough to open for the whos who in the EDM world. A small list includes Afrojack, TIESTO, DEADMAU5, BENNY BENASSI, WOLFGANG GARTNER, MAX VANGELI, SPENCER & HILL, DESIGNER DRUGS, ROGER SANCHEZ, FUNKAGENDA, TOMMY LEE & DJ AERO, PAUL OAKENFOLD, CALVIN HARRIS, KASKADE.


I should've known. Like I give a fuck about any of those people.
 6 7:03 PM - 11 June, 2013
and I think YOU are the one that needs to get off the high horse of yours.

:)
Dj-M.Bezzle 7:06 PM - 11 June, 2013
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Quote:
I do I have been lucky enough to open for the whos who in the EDM world. A small list includes Afrojack, TIESTO, DEADMAU5, BENNY BENASSI, WOLFGANG GARTNER, MAX VANGELI, SPENCER & HILL, DESIGNER DRUGS, ROGER SANCHEZ, FUNKAGENDA, TOMMY LEE & DJ AERO, PAUL OAKENFOLD, CALVIN HARRIS, KASKADE.


I should've known. Like I give a fuck about any of those people.



Hey you gotta respect that, he sold ALOT of tickets to get those gigs, probably won a few facebook polls to!
 6 7:07 PM - 11 June, 2013
"he sold ALOT of tickets to get those gigs"


The worst thing about being a pawn is being one and not know it.


lol

nm
phonze 7:13 PM - 11 June, 2013
Quote:
Nowadays, what I feel is even worse than undercutting is the fact that promoters are really just hiring promoters who kinda halfway know how to DJ. Or, DJs who aren't good, but bring a million people because they used to be regular promoters.

Feels like I started getting way more gigs once promoters knew that I can bring a crowd out...but what bothers me is that they seem to be more concerned about me bringing this crowd than anything on the music side. Some of them hit me every other day before an event to ask, "you still pushin it?" "you got a lotta folks comin thru?" "you got anybody buying bottles?"



I had that deal once. It got annoying. Blowing up my phone with constant texts and phone calls. "How's it looking? How many people you got coming?" This after I already said how many ten times already in the last hour.
Code:E 9:42 PM - 11 June, 2013
Quote:
^you really dont see whats wrong with that senario?

Absolutely nothing. This is business, not putting on parties for your friends.

Quote:
A) Promoter pays $10grand for borgore
B) you run around and pass out fliers
C) you spend all day messaging on facebook
D) you make alot of phone calls
E) you buy music
F) you organise a set
G) you drive up to the show
H) you warm up the crowd and provide a large piece if what everyones there to see

Correct


Quote:
I) you help set up and tear down

Nope, never do that. There are audio techs for that. DJ's are not allowed to remove there gear, techs must do it and generally it is not done if the headliner is on the same decks until after the show.

Quote:
J) Essentially you worked the ticket booth

Yes you become an extra outlet. Thats what I'm paying you todo.

Quote:
K) You walk away with the few hundred you payed yourself via ticket sales

You get a bonus off tickets sales. like a person i retail gets a bonus commision for selling something. Your wage is still flat. You still get your check for doing the job you were hired for. To DJ and Promote the show. Sure i COuld hire A DJ, or I could hire a guy who will DJ and Promote. Why would i not hire someone willing to do both when I have the option.

Quote:
L) Promoter walks away with his initial investment recouped plus another 5 to ten grand for......well for the work you put in

Never seen profits like that ever. You want to make $10,000 put up your house and $100,000 artist fee, plus a $50,000 venue fee and maybe make 10k or loose 40k.
Quote:
And what do you mean.you have no right to that money YOUR THE PRODUCT HES SELLING without you there is no show



Again no. The product is the "show" you make up a part of the show. You didnt plan and execute you are asked to do 2 small parts, Support the main act with your music, help us to make the community aware of the show. That is in no way a large part to event production.
Quote:
Hey you gotta respect that, he sold ALOT of tickets to get those gigs, probably won a few facebook polls to!


I know thats sarcasm. But FYI I have never entered a contest of that type. I have held them, they are great marketing tools, but never entered one.

Also I do Event Logistics, Production Management and be the Audio Technician. That along with starting at the bottom of a company as just another street team member / DJ and working my way up gaining respect for the local DJ community (out side the company) is what i have done to get myself into the position I am in today.

I have no illusions of what I am where my place is. I just graduated with a degree in marketing. I fully understand how this industry works and the ones who don't are the ones complaining they don't get gigs.


Joining a promotion company and promoting is not the only way to be successful. Many people do it on there own. And everyone is ok to do that. There are so many ways to make your way in this industry. I am just defending that this way may seem heartless and lacking passion when you view it from the outside, but that could be the farthest thing from the truth. Running any company in a professional manner makes the most sense. No it i not necessary to succeed but it helps.

If you want to be the next DJ blend, go right ahead and do your own way. What he is doing is not wrong either. I know our company is not the problem in the DJ vs promoters game, there are so many out there that are truly bad. These fly by night guys wanting to promote a party and having no understanding of what the DJ does. That is where the problem lies. Over half of our company's management and ownership is DJ's. Nobody is being taken advantage of. The game has change. Your skill time and effort in your bedroom don't go as far as they used too. You need to step your game up and specialize in other elements of the industry to really get taken seriously. Make youtube videos, produce your own tracks, or promote any and all plus many more are acceptable ways to step up and have people take notice of you. Don't hate on the people going above and beyond because you are too lazy to do so yourself.
Dj-M.Bezzle 9:51 PM - 11 June, 2013
So whats the kool aid taste like exactly?
d:raf 10:22 PM - 11 June, 2013
Flashback time :D

serato.com
 6 10:32 PM - 11 June, 2013
Code:E just keeps reminding me how fucked up the game in the EDM scene is. I've opened for various artists... yes, actual artists not some DJ's wanna be artists - concerts and such and not once have I had to do any type of promotion.

But yeah.... drugs and kool aid must taste good in your scene there buddy.

nm
BIGG BEAR 10:45 PM - 11 June, 2013
So like the OP said...add up all the hours spent promoting on fb handing out flyers on street corners and the time spent on the decks and congratulations you just opened for Tiesto for less than minimum wage!
Code:E 10:49 PM - 11 June, 2013
It's not a scene anymore. It's an industry. It appears some people can't let go of the good old days when we did this all for fun and not to pay the rent or car payments. Cool you got booked back in the day on you skills alone. Good on you. No sarcasm. I hope you had a great time and have story's to tell your kids. I will be here evolving with the industry making it more popular than ever before.
Quote:
So like the OP said...add up all the hours spent promoting on fb handing out flyers on street corners and the time spent on the decks and congratulations you just opened for Tiesto for less than minimum wage!


And if you are really that good of DJ, and producer maybe someone like Tiesto will take notice, and you will get asked to submit a track to his label. That 6 months later your on the plane touring. Your welcome.
BIGG BEAR 11:12 PM - 11 June, 2013
Quote:
It's not a scene anymore. It's an industry. It appears some people can't let go of the good old days when we did this all for fun and not to pay the rent or car payments. Cool you got booked back in the day on you skills alone. Good on you. No sarcasm. I hope you had a great time and have story's to tell your kids. I will be here evolving with the industry making it more popular than ever before.


I suspect like most people on here I've never done this just for fun,I expect to get paid for DJ'ing.
I don't think the openers are going to be paying their rent or car payments on what it appears they will be making.
Seems like you want to make money but the openers are expected to do it for fun and next to FA in the hope that maybe if they are very lucky it might lead somewhere.
 6 11:14 PM - 11 June, 2013
Quote:
So like the OP said...add up all the hours spent promoting on fb handing out flyers on street corners and the time spent on the decks and congratulations you just opened for Tiesto for less than minimum wage!


Exactly
 6 11:15 PM - 11 June, 2013
Quote:
It's not a scene anymore. It's an industry. It appears some people can't let go of the good old days when we did this all for fun and not to pay the rent or car payments. Cool you got booked back in the day on you skills alone. Good on you. No sarcasm. I hope you had a great time and have story's to tell your kids. I will be here evolving with the industry making it more popular than ever before.
Quote:
So like the OP said...add up all the hours spent promoting on fb handing out flyers on street corners and the time spent on the decks and congratulations you just opened for Tiesto for less than minimum wage!


And if you are really that good of DJ, and producer maybe someone like Tiesto will take notice, and you will get asked to submit a track to his label. That 6 months later your on the plane touring. Your welcome.


hahaha. I bet those are the "dreams" you feed your puppets. Just like a good pyramid scheme.... whatever works. Right?

lmao
 6 11:15 PM - 11 June, 2013
Quote:
Quote:
It's not a scene anymore. It's an industry. It appears some people can't let go of the good old days when we did this all for fun and not to pay the rent or car payments. Cool you got booked back in the day on you skills alone. Good on you. No sarcasm. I hope you had a great time and have story's to tell your kids. I will be here evolving with the industry making it more popular than ever before.


I suspect like most people on here I've never done this just for fun,I expect to get paid for DJ'ing.
I don't think the openers are going to be paying their rent or car payments on what it appears they will be making.
Seems like you want to make money but the openers are expected to do it for fun and next to FA in the hope that maybe if they are very lucky it might lead somewhere.


Someone sees through the smoke and mirrors.

:)
DJMark 11:18 PM - 11 June, 2013
Quote:
And if you are really that good of DJ, and producer maybe someone like Tiesto will take notice, and you will get asked to submit a track to his label. That 6 months later your on the plane touring.


Yeah right.

Nothing unique though. Delusions of grandiosity have infected plenty of other things besides DJ-ing.
Code:E 11:25 PM - 11 June, 2013
It is a dream for sure. But I have seen it happen. for the 1 in 100,000 shot it sounds like great odds to me.
Quote:
Seems like you want to make money but the openers are expected to do it for fun and next to FA in the hope that maybe if they are very lucky it might lead somewhere.

Isn't that called paying your dues. A lot of the guys on here are way past that stage now. And I wouldn't ask them to do any of these things. Or to come work on our street team. You have your own avenues and your own ways of getting paid. This is all for the new people starting out.
DJ Reflex 11:57 PM - 11 June, 2013
Small bands open for major acts all the time. The opening act does not get paid squat compared to the opener! Same thing goes for DJs. I opened for plenty of well paid big acts back in college for barely $50 at the end of a long gig. It was called exposure, not delusions of grandeur! After the crowd heard what I had to offer, I gradually started booking my own larger raves and moved up the headlining ladder. I'm not too much in the rave scene anymore, but the dues I paid back in the day set the framework for my success now.
DJMark 12:46 AM - 12 June, 2013
Quote:
Small bands open for major acts all the time. The opening act does not get paid squat compared to the opener! Same thing goes for DJs. I opened for plenty of well paid big acts back in college for barely $50 at the end of a long gig. It was called exposure, not delusions of grandeur!


You're correct. That isn't what I (and others) were taking issue with.
Code:E 3:09 AM - 12 June, 2013
It makes sense to take issue with it. But it's like hoping and waiting for the US to have 3rd party that actually has power like in Canada. It could happen but not over night and not any time soon.
 6 5:52 AM - 12 June, 2013
Nice babbling.

nm
Dj-M.Bezzle 1:27 PM - 12 June, 2013
Quote:
It's not a scene anymore. It's an industry. It appears some people can't let go of the good old days when we did this all for fun and not to pay the rent or car payments. Cool you got booked back in the day on you skills alone. Good on you. No sarcasm. I hope you had a great time and have story's to tell your kids. I will be here evolving with the industry making it more popular than ever before.


So far this is the most confused statment in the whole thread, you say its no longer for fun its an industry yet when you do the math on cost vs reward your essentially paying to play. Also what your talking about isnt making the scene more popular, wak ass promoters using gimiks, tactics, and generally raping the scene for cash is whats quickly killing this scene. The walls of rome are crumbling around you and ur to busy tryna sell the bricks to see it
DJ DisGrace 3:23 PM - 12 June, 2013
Opening for big acts is totally overrated. It's usually a clusterf**k of openers, unorganized promoters, and random mantourage that think they run the place. No one gets famous by opening for big acts. DJs get famous by putting in work in the studio and consistently rocking residencies.

No one cares who you've opened for in the long run, especially if you earned the spot by selling tickets and passing out flyers, as opposed to your dj skills.

I get payed to play music. I already paid my dues for the event by sorting music and preparing a set. Sure, I'll sent out a twitter/fb blast about the event, but if you want me to do more than that, well, only idiots working for sleezy promoters work for free (or 'potential money' by selling tickets). Also, don't forget that twitter and fb blasts are basically useless...
djaction 3:27 PM - 12 June, 2013
if the DJ is promoting why do you need the promoter at all?
phonze 4:01 PM - 12 June, 2013
Sell tickets? Fuck that. If I have peeps that want to come I'll ask for some to sell. I shouldn't be hired for doing it though. I've had this deal already and it was a big mistake.
DJ Remy USA 4:42 PM - 12 June, 2013
Quote:
Opening for big acts is totally overrated. It's usually a clusterf**k of openers, unorganized promoters, and random mantourage that think they run the place. No one gets famous by opening for big acts. DJs get famous by putting in work in the studio and consistently rocking residencies.

No one cares who you've opened for in the long run, especially if you earned the spot by selling tickets and passing out flyers, as opposed to your dj skills.

I get payed to play music. I already paid my dues for the event by sorting music and preparing a set. Sure, I'll sent out a twitter/fb blast about the event, but if you want me to do more than that, well, only idiots working for sleezy promoters work for free (or 'potential money' by selling tickets). Also, don't forget that twitter and fb blasts are basically useless...


This

Code e your a respectable guy I think everyone would agree but the business model you all have is what is exactly wrong with the DJ industry. Barely any of us agree that what you say in right, however you happen to be on the lucky recieving end of all this fuckery so it works out for you so you dont really see what everyone else is talking about. Your still a stand up guy imo but I totally disagree with your business model even if it works it rapes the talent for promotion which is a bad look imo.
Dj-M.Bezzle 4:49 PM - 12 June, 2013
Quote:
It makes sense to take issue with it. But it's like hoping and waiting for the US to have 3rd party that actually has power like in Canada. It could happen but not over night and not any time soon.

And not with people like you defending and contributing to it
DJRemixEnt 4:55 PM - 12 June, 2013
Quote:
It's usually a clusterf**k of openers, unorganized promoters, and random mantourage that think they run the place.


so true
Code:E 5:37 PM - 12 June, 2013
Thank Remy.

I know I'm not in the majority on this point. That is fine with me. I remember when being a DJ was not in the majority. bahahahaha! Anyway I hope nobody is butthurt by my point of view. I can see how any why people think my stance on the industry is what is wrong with it. But this is the stance I have taken and I think i can do more good for the industry this way. Am I right, are the people opposing me right. We will never know. It will be years and years before anyone knows what the results will be.
Joshua Carl 6:30 PM - 12 June, 2013
while undercutting is undercutting, and thats that.

we have to remember there are at least 2 kinds of undercutting
and while 1 isnt any better than the other, one is certainly more sinister than the other.

1. (Taking advantage of the system and technology advances)
I will steal everything, have zero overhead, but i want to be The DJ, the Cool guy. It gets me laid, looks good on my facebook page, and I will certainly (though I wont admit it today) be done with this DJ thing in 5 years.
Therefor I will walk into a room that I want to play in, find out what the going rate is, and offer to do it for 1/2 or less... or even better, nothing. Stealing everything, and a very low hardware overhead I have no quams charging $50 becuase my entire rig cost me under 500 total.

2. (being taken advantage of by the system)
a. ignorance: : the state or fact of being ignorant : lack of knowledge, education, or awareness
being young and ignorant to the ways thing work, and "just wanting to spin out is a recipe for disaster, but its one we were living at during the baby steps of our career, most people were able to come in with a knowledge of the workings of the polotics of nightlife.
so often you jump at any chance to play, never mind even getting paid.... Eventually you start learning, developing a backbone and with any luck your skillset demands a healthy level of compensation.
b. hobbyist - a person who pursues an activity in their spare time for pleasure
Having a day job allows this person to throw up the flag of "its just a hobby, I do it becuase i love it, its a passion" because they can make enough money somewhere else they dont need to command a rate, and because they are only doing it as a "hobby" they know that they certainly cannot command a competitive wage, or else they will not be spinning at all.
The Irony being that the "love and passion" is really just a copout, they do not LOVE the scene. They LOVE being the DJ. The attention, the rush we all get when we spin.
the people who truly love nurture and give back to the thing they love, not just constantly take from it when they need to. Its like the people who say I love ___________, but steal all his music, rather than buying it and supporting the artist "they love"


there are OF COURSE hundreds of other randon situations, people that can be other examples, combinations or types of undercutter. But at its core its some sort of ethical deficiency. And because we have no governing body, no system of checks and balances Owners, Promoters, Other DJs run amok either : looking to take advantage of undercutter type A, or waiting for Undercutter B to deliver himself to their front door. In the end ensuring this person is SURE to make more money, for less work, and a smaller overhead than the DJ they spoke to yesterday.
Again lowering the talent bar, flooding the market with mediocre participation trophy DJs and ever so slowly bringing down the standard pricing and cost for a professional dj
Dj-M.Bezzle 7:05 PM - 12 June, 2013
Quote:
Quote:
To be fair theres another way of looking at this that isnt being taken into consideration


I'm all ears!

Well when the article does the math its doing so under the assumption that those are costs that only accumulate if you decide to dj. The math says you pay for music then you pay for gas then you have to be there for x anount of hours and you only get paid min wage...but if you normally buy music and normally go to that club except when you dont dj you add in a cover charge and if you usually hang there for x amount of hours those are all things that would have put you waaay further into tje negative